How Could Illiterate Apostles Write Gospels? (feat. Dr Robyn Faith Walsh)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 มิ.ย. 2024
- Frank Turek of @CrossExamined tried answering some questions about the reliability of the Gospels, especially about their authorship. Dr Robyn Faith Walsh joins us to respond.
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How Could Illiterate Apostles Write Gospels?
• How Could Illiterate A...
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Paul: "Have you ever heard of Frank Turrek?"
Dr. Robyn: "No"
Paul: "Then I apologize up front."
Could not have said it any better. lol
LOL 😆 Liberal scholarship is from their own conformation biases grounded in anti Christian beliefs.
So, it's hilarious that you believe her scholarship .
Do U know who Dr.Michael S.Heiser was ?
Probably, not if you only buy these types of scholars.
LOL, at her saying Paul thought of himself as a prophet on one of her other videos: that simple statement shows how pathetic her thinking is!
Turek knows better or should know better.. he was utterly HitchSlapped and still keeps on going like a zombie apologist.. Turek, in my opinion, just likes to hear the sound of his own voice.
The moment paul became an apologist!
Apaulogize
@@sergiogaragarza5578 His income relies on people believing what he says. He's not going to suddenly change what he says because he gets Hitchslapped.
_"here is somebody two thousand years later trying to pinpoint certain qualities about the writers [...] he just doesn't have enough information"_
Funny Frank, that never seems to stop you guys from claiming to know what happened back then in detail.
100%. Two way sword there, Franky.
@@utubepunk Even more so - for example FT says "well, Luke was a doctor ... " as if physicians had ANYTHING approaching the sort of education, training and experience of physicians today. FT is exploiting modern people's common understanding to misrepresent the world of 2000 years ago.
That's apples and oranges. Ehrman, et al are using a text criticism that has no predictive power and has proven not to hold a consistent theory that outlives the theorist, Frank is relying on ancient testimony. It is very possible that ancient testimony is faulty, sure. But these are hardly the same standards.
@@mikewilliams6025you think that frank is immune to the nature of textual criticism? him and bart are doing the exact same thing, textually analyzing the bible as an ancient account 2000 years after it was written
@@mikewilliams6025You know what is even less consistent, and has zero predictive power? Faith.
I like how Frank gives us all this very specific information about the gospel writers. Then says that Bart couldn't possibly have such specific information, given that it's 2,000 years later.
Why godless alone people are obsessed with God?? and talk about him more then a believer? Well for many reason.... 1) About that BS called atheism there is not much things to say, no value, no sacred things and and it leads to nothing. 2 And then because they know they are so many godless alone people that will run to kiss their ass... 3 they do that so this cult can be alive, otherwise is destined to vanish, exactly from the nothing it comes... because is nothing but a cult that has nothing to offer to us and neither to the godless alone people who belonged to 4 And finally this cult will be vanished without those videos and those godless alone people will be just alone.
They even have less sacred thing their alone miserable f
Life. What fools!
And who said the opposite is a godless alone hypocrite.
This cult called atheism is so empty... And those godless alone people really have nothing to offer to themselves.
They have less sacred things then us... what an idiots they are for that too.
Let's hope in a better generation because this is so lost.Can we move for the next one? Do. not write me, you disgusting godless ass kisser (you left God and your dignity for this empty cult called atheism)....
The longer you do this sort of thing, the more you realize that _everything_ cultists say is a show. So long as they say _SOMETHING_ to reassure the pew-warmers, it doesn't matter how stupid it sounds or how often they contradict _themselves._ I've had cultists contradict themselves directly in two adjacent sentences. I've heard some contradict themselves _in the same breath._ Doesn't matter to them. As long as they can project confidence and appear smug, the sheep eat it up like it's expired ivermectin.
Faith is brain-dead. It's the intellectual equivalent of a Michael Bay movie produced by Uwe Boll, and yes I'm aware they hate each other. _Sit back, clap at the asplosion, don't worry about the plot because it's barely even there._
And yes, 'asplosions' was intentional.
You beat me to it. Was going to say the same thing.
He's knows it's definitely all true but Bart can't possibly know one little thing about the authors...
Frank being a scummy liar? No way!?
LOL, yes, the totally willful and sheepish hypocrisy of Frank. And Frank's claims are based on dogma, while Barts claims are based on data, further causing problems for Frank.
It's funny how almost every time Paul asks these scholars if they've heard of these famous apologetic types the answer is "no."
They’re the lucky ones, and I wish I were so fortunate to have never heard of them either.
They're not really scholars. The big name apologists like WLC. Habermas, NT Wrong, etc, do not publish peer reviewed articles and are not engaged in ongoing critical scholarship. Their audience is Christians. The apologetics industry is about telling Christians what they want to hear peppered with enough vocabulary words to make their uncritical target audience think it sounds convincingly scientific. Bible colleges go to great lengths to prevent critical inquiry, shut down curiosity and force the faculty to only spew the company line.
That's possibly a function of Paul selecting scholars who didn't graduate in apologetics from a bible seminary.
@@oscargr_he reason for that is probably related to the motivated reasoning that often comes with a degree from a Bible seminary, required statement of faith n all.
The apologists we're familiar with, Turek, Lowbar, Bananaman, Habermas etc are basically carnival barkers for Christianity. Their mickey-mouse qualifications from Jesus camp mean very little in the world of serious scholarship.
It doesn't surprise me that they don't appear on the radar for most serious biblical scholars. I don't think Ehrman does himself many scholarly favors interacting with them, but it does pay the bills.
This guest was terrific. I love people who are clear about what they don't know, and not afraid to say so. It lends so much more gravitas to what they say they do know. Prof. Walsh's discourse on the possible background of the gospels was a whole course of instruction in half an hour. I also loved it that she had never heard of Frank Turek.
quote: This guest was terrific.
and what were you terrified about?
@@iwilldi This was a joke, right?
@@DoloresLehmann
It was a horrific joke!
Some of her comments were good, but there were other claims she made that were either entirely unsubstantiated or at least noticeably biased.
For instance, she states as if it were without a doubt that Paul and Peter were strongly at odds with each other. On what basis? One passage in Galatians that describes an argument between them? That is hardly grounds for assuming that they were on bad terms throughout their lives, and there is plenty of textual evidence to the contrary in the rest of the NT. Yet she makes no attempt to qualify her assertion.
The grounds given for the dating of the Gospels is equally tenous. The notion that they have to be post-destruction of the temple simply because Jesus accurately prophesies about their destruction is absurdly biased against the supernatural. It assumes that prophecy can't actually happen and insists upon a naturalistic explanation in spite of there being significant textual evidence within the Gospels that does put the Synoptics as being pre-AD 70. For more on that I recommend Brant Pitre and John Bergsma as good sources.
The explanation that Walsh favors regarding this being a way for Jews to live without the Temple is possible, but hardly likely and certainly not a better explanation than the one already given in the Gospels and the early Christian community for why Jesus taught without a need for a Temple. Christianity is the fulfillment, and not the continuation of Judaism.
The allure of novelty has long driven scholarship to find answers more complex and convoluted than the straightforward ones found within the text itself. It's disappointing to see these ideas thrown out so uncritically simply because they favor a naturalistic interpretation.
@@luxetvita8067
The author of Mark who has Peter confess in Cesarea Philippi and then Jesus on Mount Hermon would laugh his socks off about your supernatural nonsense.
He actually was not even a christian by the time of writing. Why? That is, what his gospel is all about besides it being a mystery thriller.
You can read the text as straightforward as you want and even insert an artificial break at _After John was put into prison_ ...
To Mark you are just an outsider who reads parables.
The contrast between an apologist and a real historian is stark. One is clearly trying to sell you something, while the other one is trying to educate you. I've never heard of her before, but she impressed me enough in this video that I think I'll sign up for her course.
I’m so envious of anyone who has not heard of Frank Turek. Let alone someone who has not sat through one of his talks irl
well thanks. i've never been envied before.
You, my good sir/madam/both/neither, are brave. I salute you!
It would of been nice to warn them first, that if they watched him their IQ could drop ten points an hour.
Dr. Walsh was an excellent guest. Very interesting episode, Paul!
she was a horrible guest. her whole presentation was pharisaic snobbery: "these unwashed peasants could not have possible written down anything"
@voxpopuli8132
Do you have an actual argument or do you just like to whine? Because it’s perfectly reasonable to say that Ancient Galilean fisherman were illiterate considering the high status you essentially had to have back then to be educated enough to read and write.
When I read the gospels in the context of my general knowledge of history, I was reminded of a common phenomenon: the popular appeal of the "exotic and esoteric wisdom" of some remote, and often conquered or oppressed people.
. . . In the 18th century, a number of English writers became fascinated with the "spirituality" of the Irish, Scottish and Welsh, studied their ancient poetry, and built up a cult of "Celticism". After all, they had been slaughtering and oppressing these people for centuries, and they were still alive and kicking in their rugged and poor regions, so it was tempting to think they must have magical powers and thus were suddenly perceived as "cool." Celtic writers obliged them by producing all sorts of "authentic Celtic wisdom" in the form of fiction, and often outright forgeries. A Scot, James Macpherson, claimed to have transcribed from oral tradition an epic poetic cycle of an imaginary ancient poet named Ossian. In fact, he just made the whole thing up. In Scotland itself, Macpherson's forgery was ridiculed, but Ossian became immensely popular across Europe, and people like Thomas Jefferson and Napoleon Bonaparte were enthusiastic fans.
. . . In the 19th century, a similar phenomenon occurred with India. After looting the Indian subcontinent and reducing it to famine and pacification, there was a period of romanticizing it. It became very fashionable to talk about how "spiritual" India was, and there began a steady stream of books in which a kind of commercialized version of Hinduism became very popular in Europe and America. People like Madame Blavatsky, who cooked up a bizarre version of Hinduism mixed up with European notions, even became important in Indian politics, while literary people in New England obsessively read the Hindu scriptures looking for mystic wisdom --- which is where we get the term "Boston Brahmins" from.
. . . Canadian First Nations and their brethren in the U.S. are all familiar with the tendency of urban sophisticates to romanticize their culture.... always based on the assumption that they are "spiritual" in some mysterious way that makes up for their poverty and marginal status in society. There are always some in those communities eager to cash in on those naive, romantic images. The movie Avatar is a kind of fantasy/science fiction expression of that romantic vision --- with First Nations people being turned into blue aliens.
. . . So this is a very common cultural phenomenon. When I read the gospels, they seemed to me to greatly resemble something written by Madame Blavatsky or Edwin Arnold, or any of a thousand romantic tales about First Nations' "spiritual wisdom". By the late First Century, the Jewish Kingdom in its far corner of the Roman Empire had been completely crushed, its Temple destroyed and its people scattered around the Empire. But half of the Empire was Greek-speaking, with a huge intellectual tradition, and plenty of Greek-speaking writers who resented the Latin-speaking Imperial aristocracy and bureaucracy and thought of them as uncultured thugs. Wise people spoke Greek, not Latin! What would be more appealing in much of the empire than an underdog story where some lone preacher from among the conquered tribes of the East was not only the source of mystical wisdom, but actually a god? The fact that the Jews were an exotic, and self-isolating group that everyone had heard of but knew almost nothing about fit them well for this role. The Gospels and other books of the New Testament, to my eye, look like "spiritual" literature cooked up by some Greeks and Hellenized Jews in Alexandria (always a hotbed of culture fads and religious movements) and subsequently spread throughout the Empire.
Only one of the Gospels shows much knowledge of life in Judea.. the rest of it sounds like some guy in a New Jersey suburb telling a story about a wise shaman in the Canadian Arctic --- getting a few facts right, but the bulk of it wrong. The gospels tell an underdog story with lots of miracles. This has been popular since the world began. It has driven most religions in the world.
love this comment!
Only one thing will I add to this, is that I recall, possibly from Dale B Martin lecture, that there are apparently Alexandrian and Antiochan versions of Christology apparent in the New Testament (and, I think, the Gnostic writings and other apocrypha).
So in other words the idea percolated throughout the Hellenised ANE and came out in different forms that then got mashed together again.
@@simongiles9749 This seems to me to be highly probable. The Greek-speaking cities of Alexandria, Antioch and Ephesus were the economic and cultural engines of the Roman Empire at its height, and these are precisely where Christianity got its foothold. What evidence we have is that there was a large popular literature about Jesus, oral and written, most of which did not survive the consolidation of power into the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches. For a long time, the bulk of the world's Christians were in Africa and Asia, only to ultimately be swept up in the expansion of Islam, leaving only fragmentary communities in places as distant as Southern India, Ethiopia and Northern China. When we look at the religious history, customs and scriptures in these areas, we get a good idea of how complex the process was.
@@simongiles9749 I'm in nerd heaven 🤓
Absolutely incredible comment. What a perspective to consider Christianity through.
haha .. "Have you heard of Frank Turek?"
"No."
"Then I apologize upfront." Brilliant.
Why godless alone people are obsessed with God?? and talk about him more then a believer? Well for many reason.... 1) About that BS called atheism there is not much things to say, no value, no sacred things and and it leads to nothing. 2 And then because they know they are so many godless alone people that will run to kiss their ass... 3 they do that so this cult can be alive, otherwise is destined to vanish, exactly from the nothing it comes... because is nothing but a cult that has nothing to offer to us and neither to the godless alone people who belonged to 4 And finally this cult will be vanished without those videos and those godless alone people will be just alone.
They even have less sacred thing their alone miserable f
Life. What fools!
And who said the opposite is a godless alone hypocrite.
This cult called atheism is so empty... And those godless alone people really have nothing to offer to themselves.
They have less sacred things then us... what an idiots they are for that too.
Let's hope in a better generation because this is so lost.Can we move for the next one? Do. not write me, you disgusting godless ass kisser (you left God and your dignity for this empty cult called atheism).
Both Paul and Dr Walsh missed Frank's all too common tactic of changing the context of the question in beginning of his response. He skipped the entire Greek angle and went right to "Erhman can't know that the authors of scripture were illiterate." Which is not the question that was asked nor the statement Dr Ehrman made on the topic.
Yes! She's one of my favorite scholars ❤.
Settle down derek
Ive really come around, she is pretty awesome
@djcripsalot "pretty" awesome? Pretty problematic. Especially after Falk, now you all are drooling over this female scholar.
@@bigtombowski What is problematic about what she said?
@@bigtombowskiexcited to hear you elaborate on this.
This is so good. Dr. Walsh is the absolute best
Really appreciate you getting these scholars on the show so you can do the work of digging up apologist talk that they may not be bothering with and they can give us their expertise. I also love your solo content, as you do a great job breaking things down and giving references to where facts come from, but of course getting the direct response of a scholar is going to give us a lot.
I appreciate that
One of my favorite guests so far. Very intelligent and thoughtful. She even challenged me a few times.
Sure that was tough 🤣😂🤣😂
@@joshdarius5995 😲
@@joshdarius5995?
How surprising and nice to see a quality image of the Hodayot (1QH) from Qumran showing up in Paul's video.
Dr. Walsh is phenomenal. Paulogia always has the most fascinating guests.
I think she might be my favorite guest you've had on this channel - a fantastic level of academic honesty and humility.
Frank Turek is the Home Shopping Network's version of a Christian apologist
As opposed to.... whom?
He is not so bad in that collection, imho
@@oscargr_Ravi Zacharias was the cream of the crop.
More like Amway
@Wong-Jack-Man
Really…? The man who was a walking, talking appeal to emotions fallacy?
The point is they did not more than likely. Most scholars will say that the gospels were written decades after the events they portrayed.
Why godless alone people are obsessed with God?? and talk about him more then a believer? Well for many reason.... 1) About that BS called atheism there is not much things to say, no value, no sacred things and and it leads to nothing. 2 And then because they know they are so many godless alone people that will run to kiss their ass... 3 they do that so this cult can be alive, otherwise is destined to vanish, exactly from the nothing it comes... because is nothing but a cult that has nothing to offer to us and neither to the godless alone people who belonged to 4 And finally this cult will be vanished without those videos and those godless alone people will be just alone.
They even have less sacred thing their alone miserable f
Life. What fools!
And who said the opposite is a godless alone hypocrite.
This cult called atheism is so empty... And those godless alone people really have nothing to offer to themselves.
They have less sacred things then us... what an idiots they are for that too.
Let's hope in a better generation because this is so lost.Can we move for the next one? Do. not write me, you disgusting godless ass kisser (you left God and your dignity for this empty cult called atheism)....
And written by people that weren't there, from accounts from people that likely also weren't there. Because, also likely, "there" never existed.
I seem to remember either Richard Carrier or David Fitzgerald saying that the writer of the oldest gospel, attributed to Mark, gets a lot of things about customs and geography wrong, and the writer of Luke corrects these mistakes while also copying Mark, verbatim in some instances.
@Mar-dk3mp 😂 Are you salty that people are waking up and are no longer being duped by Hebrew fiction? Poor baby.
Rest assured that *if* there is a god, it's probably one nobody knows anything about.
One thing I've noticed about Turek is he has a set number of talking points that he delivers in rapid-fire statements. Of several Q&A segments of his that I have seen he will often say a lot of stuff very quickly to fill in the empty spot after a question mark, but he doesn't always actually answer the question. I have also seen him fire off some prepared verbiage and then immediately say he is out of time and needs to move on to cut off any further follow-up by the person he is addressing.
Frank is so self important that he has to shout a barrage of facts at his audience with no time given to process one by one, since Frank already knows these things from his Doctor of Ministry in Apologetics degree from Southern Evangelical Seminary. Unfortunately his doctorate did not include the counter arguments that reveal the blatant self canceling contradictions that skeptics have pointed out again and again which Frank repeatedly rejects.
Apologist gishgallop
Luke "...has a patron who has paid him to write him a novel about Jesus." Whoa. Not only is that the cleverest, most straightforward way to put that, but that was never clear to me until just now. I always thought he was using Theophilus like you'd say "Dear Reader" or "Fellow Christians." Thanks for that, the idea really informs and explains the rest of Luke-Acts for me. Thanks for introducing me to Dr. Walsh. Amazing scholarship.
More Dr. Walsh please!
Wow, Paul! Dr. Walsh is fabulous! Please make her a regular! Thanks for all the wonderful vlogs!
There are some good videos with her over on Mythvision too.
@@danielmartin5632 Ty I am looking for all her writings and videos.😊
Dr Walsh gets it exactly right, and I don’t understand why more people don’t point out the flaw in apologetics. “Who cares?” Once you believe the gospels are divinely inspired (which as far as I know all apologists do) who cares if the authors are eye witnesses? Who cares if they were written during, soon after or long after Jesus’ life? Accept a supernatural origin, and nothing else matters. But if you strip away the supernatural, it’s absurd to say the text itself proves it to be 100%?accurate.
The problem with them being divinely inspired is the inconsistencies. You would think god would get it right every time.
The reason apologetics exist is because even thoroughly brain-dead faith-zombies who've been indoctrinated from birth know that "it's magic" isn't very convincing. It's the same reason why there's so much science-denialism _but actually science is totally on our side!_ They know they can't back their bullshit up, but they also know that a reality-based understanding of Reality is very convincing. So they play both sides. Science is fake, but science agrees with us. The bible was written by mere mortal men, but it was actually written by an all-powerful all-knowing entity and any mistakes in it are not actually mistakes they're just Muskian 4D chess we're too dumb to understand.
They absolutely could just say 'it am magic' about everything. They really should, because that would be honest. Honestly wrong, but _honest._ But they know how dumb it sounds, so they avoid coming right out and saying it, *because that would be honest.* Gotta lie to -flerf- cult.
@@donaldnumbskull9745oh but they aren't contradictions. They are simply the registry of different perspectives that show an early and profund understanding of relativity and the superposition of quantum states, which explains how Jesus could be riding one and two donkeys at the same time.
@@eprd313peasant brains melting as they try to understand what is happening.
@@eprd313 Schrodinger's ass?🤔🤣🤣🤣
Funny, I usually have my eyes closed and enjoy Paul's dulcet voice but just happened to be looking at 21:46. I see what you did there, and I kinda liked it. 😊
The reason Christians need to believe the Gospels are eyewitness testimony is because they secretly doubt and need anything they can get for proof.
I can accept if someone says faith is enough. But if someone insists they have proof, it’s because faith isn’t enough.
This is my first time hearing from Robyn.
She was phenomenal! Hope you can have her back on at some point
Peter and Paul were good guys. I absolutely love their peppermint patties.
But they really needed a female voice to balance out the group.
You managed to animate _the_ _best_ _hair_ in biblical scholarship perfectly Paul. Kudos Sir, Kudos !
Wait, what was inserted!?! Lol, that picture!!! Approx 21:44 😂
Bruh ik
Never heard of Dr. Walsh-she is amazing!
Haha. I’ve seen and read a lot of her stuff but never heard of Frank Turek.
Do you think it is significant that Jesus is not recorded as urging his disciples to take notes, spread the word through writing, etc.? He seems to expect them to rely on bearing personal witness persuasively.
My uninformed opinion is that it should be troubling that Jesus had a 3 year ministry and didn't take time to write anything down.
@@KC-ni3svno it shouldn't trouble you. He probably couldn't write. Nearly all the people he spoke to probably couldn't read. And he probably expected the world to end within his lifetime so what's the point in writing anything down.
@@osr4152the actual son of God (who is also god but let's not go there) was illiterate? When he's a perfect being?
If the message he was trying to spread was that important, he would have made sure that it was disseminated in every possible form. Oh and he could have instantaneously made everyone able to read, super easy, barely an inconvenience.
@@Forest_Fifer personally I dont think he was the son of God
Because it's all about faith. Not thinking and reading, faith. Lack of Faith is the only unforgivable action.
"If the scripture is inspired, why does it matter who wrote it?" is SUCH an interesting insight from Dr. Walsh! I'm fascinated by this thought, I've never considered it before.
I'm such a big fan of Robyn Walsh! 😍
She's smart as well as very attractive
great guest ....thanks Paul
The thing is, the Biblical scholars want to be, well, scholars. It's trivial to say God magically made the gospels the way they are, and when asked why, to say "God works in mysterious ways." But this isn't convincing to anybody except Christians already, so they feel they need to have a mundane explanation for these texts.
The same thing happens with e.g. creationists who can't say "God magically made humans with the 2nd chromosome fusion because He works in mysterious ways."
Why godless alone people are obsessed with God?? and talk about him more then a believer? Well for many reason.... 1) About that BS called atheism there is not much things to say, no value, no sacred things and and it leads to nothing. 2 And then because they know they are so many godless alone people that will run to kiss their ass... 3 they do that so this cult can be alive, otherwise is destined to vanish, exactly from the nothing it comes... because is nothing but a cult that has nothing to offer to us and neither to the godless alone people who belonged to 4 And finally this cult will be vanished without those videos and those godless alone people will be just alone.
They even have less sacred thing their alone miserable f
Life. What fools!
And who said the opposite is a godless alone hypocrite.
This cult called atheism is so empty... And those godless alone people really have nothing to offer to themselves.
They have less sacred things then us... what an idiots they are for that too.
Let's hope in a better generation because this is so lost.Can we move for the next one? Do. not write me, you disgusting godless ass kisser (you left God and your dignity for this empty cult called atheism).
Ironically Catholics view is that the names the authors of the gospels were ascribed by tradition. .... Bible literalists don't consider them Christian.
Dr. Walsh is awesome.
I've always loved the visual style of your videos - both the simple animation and the stock photos in the background. But the butt plug literally made me laugh out loud!
I spat
4:52, right out of the gate Turek does a bait&switch. Ehrman did not claim the gospel writers were uneducated. Just the opposite: the gospel writers were educated in Greek and this is not consistent with what is claimed of the disciples.
A guest I had not come across before but she is tremendously impressive. A great attitude with the expertise to back it up.
I love how Dr. Walsh starts it off 😂
Dr Walsh gave historical insight into the New Testament story I have never heard. I’m looking forward to digging into it further. Thanks Paul.
Thanks for bringing Dr. Walsh into this. We need more people like her, true historians not apologists like Turek, to call people like Turek on the carpet.
As an apologist I used to hint that the Holy Spirit could have miraculously granted the “gift” of literacy - in a foreign language - to Galilean fishermen. 😂 Occam’s Razor might just have a better explanation… but I couldn’t consider the very thought of maybe they were written by educated Greek-speakers. Thankfully TH-cam channels like this have let me wake up after decades of very sincere delusion.
so what is ur faith now
@@mihajlo33one can be a Christian and still wanting to search for truth and historical accuracy.The religion didn't start with these texts(the gospels)anyway in the first place.
@TopoIl12
Problem with that is that remaining a faithful Christian and understanding historical accuracy are often at odds with each other
@@loganleatherman7647 often but not always,look at the works of Benjamin Constant and Friedrich Schleiermacher on religion for instance.They're conceptualizing religion and Christianity's essence outside of the realm of historicity.Imho a better way to approach religion overall.
The timing here is uncanny - Dan McClellan posted on gospel authorship this morning as well. He and Dr. Faith Walsh mesh rather well.
I agree with Dr. Walsh that you have to admire that the lady for being to persistent with Turek. I hope whomever the lady in the video is sees this video.
I've watched this before but I'm watching it again. Great stuff from Robyn.
I am surprised that Turek let her stay at the mic so long. Normally if a questioner does not immediately swallow his "answers", he will run them off and move on to someone else.
Another great presentation
Why godless alone people are obsessed with God?? and talk about him more then a believer? Well for many reason.... 1) About that BS called atheism there is not much things to say, no value, no sacred things and and it leads to nothing. 2 And then because they know they are so many godless alone people that will run to kiss their ass... 3 they do that so this cult can be alive, otherwise is destined to vanish, exactly from the nothing it comes... because is nothing but a cult that has nothing to offer to us and neither to the godless alone people who belonged to 4 And finally this cult will be vanished without those videos and those godless alone people will be just alone.
They even have less sacred thing their alone miserable f
Life. What fools!
And who said the opposite is a godless alone hypocrite.
This cult called atheism is so empty... And those godless alone people really have nothing to offer to themselves.
They have less sacred things then us... what an idiots they are for that too.
Let's hope in a better generation because this is so lost.Can we move for the next one? Do. not write me, you disgusting godless ass kisser (you left God and your dignity for this empty cult called atheism)...........
invite this lady back, terrific
Appreciate the effort you put into these vids Paul.
I'm taking notes.. again.
Apart from the subject and siscussion, which was very good, as usual, I have to say, I just love the way you visualise what's being said with those perfect and often hilarious pictures. Makes it worth a watch in any case. 😂
Speaking of commentaries accompanied by illustrations, I miss "the Living Dinosaur". he had a style which Paulogia would never engage in but if you wanted half an hour of slagging someone off he was well worth watching.
Wow she is excellent, super fascinating discussion. Nicely done to you both.
Banger episode dude. Fascinating stuff, well presented
I love the snippets in the background...like "not in a vacuum" with a cat staring down a vacuum cleaner, "insert"...um, I'll leave that image alone 🤣
How do you find these people? But even more important, how do you convince them to come on your channel? :-D i am not expecting an answer, I am simply impressed.
A fair number are clearly doing "book tours". Publishers will arrange these to advertise the books.
@@goldenalt3166Not to mention that they probably get paid well for their time as well.
@@Lobsterwithinternet Typically book tour appearances are part of the contract. So in a way they are already paid for that by the publisher. I know a few popular people make paid appearances, but it looks like almost all of these are some sort of promotional visits by the guest.
@@goldenalt3166 I know.
Was talking about others who were regulars in the circuit before everyone was selling classes.
@@Lobsterwithinternet Who exactly do you think was paid?
Dr. Walsh - outstanding presentation - thanks to all involved.
Turek: Peter dictated the gospel of Mark to Mark. Frank lies again.
Why godless alone people are obsessed with God?? and talk about him more then a believer? Well for many reason.... 1) About that BS called atheism there is not much things to say, no value, no sacred things and and it leads to nothing. 2 And then because they know they are so many godless alone people that will run to kiss their ass... 3 they do that so this cult can be alive, otherwise is destined to vanish, exactly from the nothing it comes... because is nothing but a cult that has nothing to offer to us and neither to the godless alone people who belonged to 4 And finally this cult will be vanished without those videos and those godless alone people will be just alone.
They even have less sacred thing their alone miserable f
Life. What fools!
And who said the opposite is a godless alone hypocrite.
This cult called atheism is so empty... And those godless alone people really have nothing to offer to themselves.
They have less sacred things then us... what an idiots they are for that too.
Let's hope in a better generation because this is so lost.Can we move for the next one? Do. not write me, you disgusting godless ass kisser (you left God and your dignity for this empty cult called atheism).
Lying is all Frank does
Frank is one of those people where you lose IQ points by listening.
Absolutely
@Great1Duanewhen it’s clear that Jesus learned it from Dionysus.
@@kellydalstok8900 Jesus out did the legendary stories of Dionysus in space time history. It is an event witnessed to by John the beloved disciple (John 2:1-14) and attested to by those who were at the wedding, some of whom lived until the time of emperor Trajan (as the historian Hegesippus, mid 2nd century, notes) .
The wedding feast of the Lamb (a metaphor for Jesus' ministry) will feature the choicest meats and the finest of wines. Those who don't want to hang out and follow the master wine maker with an RSVP, as the great "I Am", will not be forced into being resurrected into glory. The entry into the festival is by grace, through a faith relationship of the heart.
@@jessknauftofsantaynezvalle4111
After reading your painfully sanctimonious, ego-centric comment, I threw up just a little bit in my mouth
@@jessknauftofsantaynezvalle4111It smacks of the same storytelling as the 500 people mentioned in the Pauline Creed.
Hegesippus says that they lived to Trajan's day. Does Hegesippus claim to have met them? Hegesippus was 7 years old when Trajan died. This is such a loosely possible thread that I have to wonder why you think it adds credibility to the miracle claim.
Interesting perspectives and insights. Signing up now!
Excellent discussion!
Not only that, but a LITERATE fisherman, laborer, or anyone with less than a literate education (they could write, but they would not write well, and they would write in a way that showed their oral language).
The gospels were the product of a person with a literate or semi-literate education. They would not fish. They might go fishing, but it wasn't their job.
Why are THEISTS so unaware of these simple things? Why? DENIAL.
And then, with Paul, and his legit writing. What was his literate/oral Greek vocabulary?
@@BFDT-4it doesn’t matter how literate Paul was, because he doesn’t claim any knowledge of Jesus’s life. He just heard some stuff and saw a vision, probably due to heatstroke, dehydration or a seizure.
People who have seizures sometimes have religious experiences. But only when they already believe in that particular religion.
8:30 interesting point about Jesus' teachings being post temple
Such an interesting video. Worth a second and even third watch through.
One of your best videos.
Ooo...never heard of Frank Turek. Much like Ken Ham made you an atheist, you can say Turek made me one.
Why godless alone people are obsessed with God?? and talk about him more then a believer? Well for many reason.... 1) About that BS called atheism there is not much things to say, no value, no sacred things and and it leads to nothing. 2 And then because they know they are so many godless alone people that will run to kiss their ass... 3 they do that so this cult can be alive, otherwise is destined to vanish, exactly from the nothing it comes... because is nothing but a cult that has nothing to offer to us and neither to the godless alone people who belonged to 4 And finally this cult will be vanished without those videos and those godless alone people will be just alone.
They even have less sacred thing their alone miserable f
Life. What fools!
And who said the opposite is a godless alone hypocrite.
This cult called atheism is so empty... And those godless alone people really have nothing to offer to themselves.
They have less sacred things then us... what an idiots they are for that too.
Let's hope in a better generation because this is so lost.Can we move for the next one? Do. not write me, you disgusting godless ass kisser (you left God and your dignity for this empty cult called atheism).
Mysterious ways haha i don't understand why anyone thinks Turek is a good apologist.
I have heard Robyn make this same error before. Life SPAN was not mid 20's. Average life EXPECTANCY was.
This is a significant distinction. Life SPAN is how long one individual typically lived barring evebts that caused premature death (war, disease etc) Average Life EXPECTANCY is an mean calculation that includes infant mortality and premature causes. When infant mortality is SO high...numbers skew down.
Life SPAN in 1st century Palestine was approximately 65 years. Life EXPECTANCY was around 23 due to war and infant mortality.
This is an important distinction that she often misrepresents.
Amazing video!
Great video. Thanks again.
I....just don't care about this stuff, lol. But I am fascinated by the scholarly interest, and through all of Paulogia's work I do find myself with a growing historical interest in what these people were thinking, saying and doing. And I do think the meeting of the ideas of believers and of objective scholars on these questions is quite lively and thought-provoking. I haven't heard ANYTHING, however, which suggests there might be something valuable to "believe in," lol. I do think Paulogia's work provides a "useful" perspective for believers to (re)consider their faith. Good information is ALWAYS good to have -- on any and all topics.
Per Wikipedia - the rate of literacy in Hebrew in Jesus time was probably about 3%. So, no, Frank, it's not that likely that one or more of the gospels were first written in Hebrew.
Especially as Hebrew was just a liturgical language at the time, so unless one of the gospel authors was a judaic priest....
What language would a first century Jew writing for a Jewish audience use, Aramaic, Hebrew or Greek? I know Aramaic was the spoken language & literacy was mostly only an upper crust thing; would people even bother writing in Aramaic for anything non-mundane?
@@zbdbz Edit: nonsense deleted.
@@zbdbz Oops! That's what happens when I Google the wrong question! Here's a better answer.
Throughout the empire, Latin and Greek were the predominant spoken languages, with Etruscan a distant third and then all the different local tongues. First century Palestinians mostly spoke Greek, with Aramaic and Hebrew much less common.
So, for Jew-to-Jew communication, Greek would be logical.
Sorry for the mistake.
I love that (to a learned academic): "Have you heard of Frank Turek?" "No".
Excellent. Thank you.
Be a little careful about confusing "life expectancy at birth" (23 years) and actual lifetimes in antiquity... high mortality at birth and adolescence biases the number STRONGLY. Life expectancy *at thirty years old* was actually closer to 20 to 30 years - i.e. 50 to 60 years old. It was not at ALL rare, nor even uncommon, to see seniors over 60 years old.
I caught that one too. It should not be perpetuated.
But it was less likely for labourers to reach an age in the top range. Same as today really.
@@kellydalstok8900you base this on... What? And even still, are you assuming writers are "common laborers"? I am not arguing that the writers *were* eyewitnesses, just that the "23 year life expectancy" is a bad justification for ruling it out.
its sad we are even talking about this fairytale for 2,000 years ....
Yes, there are shades of literacy, there's what is called "functional illiteracy" nowadays. I know people who can read, though it's hard work and they misunderstand some words, but writing is beyond them. These are neither stupid people, nor are they dealing with a second or third language.
The Gospel of "Mark" reads rather like a collection of Hadiths, it comprises sayings and didactic anecdotes rather than attempting, or even really claiming, a sequential narrative. The Gospel of "Thomas" is even more sparse, consisting of sayings only, in the traditional style of wisdom literature. What neither of them have (to take the Hadiths analogy further) is an isnad, a chain of transmission stated for each saying or anecdote (A told B, who passed the saying on to C, etc.) with each person in the chain being intensively studied to verify that he (always he, AFAIK) was both of holy character and had an excellent memory. Only if all those in the isnad pass those test is the Hadith classified as sahih - entirely reliable. There are many dubious issues and scholarly disputation in all this, of course, but at least it gives the researcher or historian people to start with in investigating claimed origins and authorship. There's no equivalent for "Mark", "Thomas" or any other gospel.
If any of the gospels were originally written in a Semitic language, it would have been Aramaic, not Hebrew. Nobody spoke Hebrew any more. Aramaic was the language everybody in the Jewish world spoke. Hebrew was just a religious language which the priests and scholars could recite and read, but they were the only people with a grasp of that otherwise dead language - and probably not even all of them.
Exactly. It’s also true for reading. For example, I can read a newspaper in Spanish. And understand spoken Spanish, if they’re not speaking rapidly. But I can barely write anything, or speak in anything but broken, childish sentences.
True enough.
But the problem is that the Gospels were written in a style of Greek that indicates the writers were well educated and we're familiar with writing conventions as well as a familiarity with the Hebrew scriptures.
@@Lobsterwithinternet No, they were written in koine Greek, common vernacular (aka "vulgar") Greek of the time, not the literary Greek of the well educated.
@@MartinJames389 And Koine Greek had a wide range of styles from the type that your average Palestinian fisherman would talk in to the styles that writers like Plutarch and Polybius wrote in as well the style that Marcus Aurelius wrote his _Meditations_ in.
What you said is like taking someone speaking in Ebonics in New Jersey and an educated poet from Washington Stae and declaring them the same because they're both American English.
My point is Scholars looked at the style of Konie Greek to determine by how it was structured and figured out the writer wrote in a style that showed a familiarity in poetry, philosophy, literary themes and other things that would indicate someone who was fairly well educated.
@@Lobsterwithinternet Don't be ridiculous! Palestinian fishermen didn't speak koine Greek, they spoke Aramaic. Plutarch had probably heard koine Greek, but he certainly didn't speak or write in it. I doubt there was any such distinction back in the time Polybius, but I'm not certain about that.
Very interesting and easy to listen to
Terrific guest!
I would love it if a videogame company made a fighting game, about the religious figures of the ancient world.
Glycon vs. John the Baptist
Glycon has snake arms for grappling and a great bite move.
John the Baptist has divine water magic, including projectiles.
Jesus vs. Zoroaster
Jesus has a timed counter move, where he turns the other cheek to negate damage.
Zoroaster has fire and light powers.
Moses vs. Gautama Buddha
Moses can use AOE attacks based on the plagues.
Buddha can change size from thin to fat, he can also use a special move called the wheel of samsara.
it’s early here but for what it’s worth, this is my favorite comment of the day. Went straight to my roommate to come up with more ideas…
Jesus vs Mohammed? My man will just channel his inner warlord. Machete baby!
@@Vhlathanoshbut Muhammad’s entire body is all blacked out with *censored* bars to prevent terrorists attacks against the game developers.
Warhammer 0K
Funny how I don’t often see the comments sections of videos interviewing male scholars just bursting with ogling type remarks and low key acting surprised that the scholar is “smart too”. Must watch the delicate eye muscles that they don’t get strained from rolling them back in my head. Fantastic discussion and valiant attempt at relating actual scholarly thought to apologetics blather. A PPP - proud Paulogia Patron
Exactly. That's what I've been trying to say on here today as well. These are the same people who call out Dr Falk on his misogyny, but then do literally the same thing on here.
Very true. The human ape is still often ruled by the little head.
@@fepeerreview3150 Oh yes indeed, as a skeptic I’m constantly having to body check my instincts and biases. Occupational hazard of humaning.
This was great
« He who swears by the Temple swears by it » That’s what to do list without caring about the temple that was just s’destroyed
There was a brief bit where Frank Turek said (at 24:13), "We obviously have the documents.", which to me sounds like he is trying to say we have the _original_ documents - but that isn't really the case, is it? My understanding (which could be wrong or at least woefully incomplete) is that we have copies of copies - there are no _originals_, and a lot of the scholarship is looking at the oldest copies available to see where they differ and where they are the same to try to guess about the authors. Some of it is better attested, but none of it is 100% sure except some of the letters.
I think (if correct), that might be some important context to put in as well - we don't know if Matthew was written in Hebrew, then translated, written in Koine by someone who primarily spoke Aramaic and/or Hebrew, but knew a little Greek, was translated and then cleaned up later or maybe even degraded later by a poor copyist.
Frank Turek goes on to talk about the importance of the documents is whether or not they are true - but how can we know whether or not they are true without knowing what they say? How can we know if they are 'eyewitness' accounts if we don't know when they were written and by whom? They don't _have_ to be eyewitness accounts to be accurate, but they should at least get illustrated details the same on the important things (like the discovery of the empty tomb - arguably the _most_ important thing).
We know Matthew was written in Greek. There was a patristic tradition (Papias, who was a lunatic-- even Eusebius says he was "of very limited understanding--Hist. Evang. 3.39) that Mt was written in Hebrew but no one takes it seriously. She should have made that clearer.
I like how English-speaking countries refer to Bible characters by English names. It just sounds so funny.
You’d be surprised how many people don’t realize their names weren’t “Matthew, John, Jesus, Joseph, and Benjamin”
It wasn’t until the last couple of years where I learned it, and I just turned 38
The names are old borrowings through Greek.
And it's not just English-speaking countries. You think Hispanohablantes refer to Iohannes? Petros? Matisyahu? Yosef? Yehoshua? Or do they instead refer to Juan, Pedro, Matías, José, y Jesús? Because it's the latter.
In Dutch it’s Jesus (pronounced as Yehsuhs), Marcus, Lukas, Mattheus, Johannes, Petrus, Maria.
@@kellydalstok8900 You've preserved Vulgate forms, but that's still not original.
Names, like any other word, change over time. The older the borrowing, the more it will have changed from the 'original'.
As always, awesome presentation. I would note the earliest known reference to Matthew having written his Gospel in Hebrew, to the Hebrews, is found in the writings of the 2nd-century bishop Papias of Hierapolis.
I really enjoyed this one.
"They were inspired", "they had the holy spirit"😂
Apparently, so were hundreds of other people who also wrote books that somehow didn't make it into what most of the world calls the Bible.
Sir Sic is very inspired after drinking enough of his “holy” spirit i.e. whisky.
Paulogia is the first person I've ever heard use "tact" when "tactic" or "tack" is what was meant, and now one of his guests is doing it. Is this one of those "I could care less" things that's going to be accepted even though it's wrong and end up in the dictionary?
I don’t know the context you are talking about, I missed it I guess, but this is tact.
tact
/tak(t)/
noun
adroitness and sensitivity in dealing with others or with difficult issues.
I’m having trouble imagining where Paul used tactic or tack in this video.
I thought it's "I couldn't care less"?
@@88mphDrBrownwell obviously. Anyone who “could care less” cares at least a little bit.
@@Lauren_P_ I don't remember Paul using it, but his guest at one point referred to one of the gospel writers as "taking a different tact" when what she should have said is "taking a different tack", a nautical term meaning a change in direction of a boat with respect to sail position.
@@Lauren_P_ no, it wasn't Paul that used it this time, it was Dr. Walsh, which is why I made the comment, because I never expected to hear it from someone else. When she said "tact", in context it sounded like a synonym for "strategy", which should probably be "tactic", or possibly the less common meaning of "tack". "Tact" is more about decorum, and decorum *can* be an important consideration in refining debate techniques, I don't think that's the intention here.
inserted haha. love the image you put up.
I knew just from the cartoon that it was Robyn 😊
She's a real-life Nico Robin, love it. She will discover everything from the Void century, I just know it.
Glad to see a One Piece fan here.
And tells macabre jokes too.
@@DeludedOne one of Robin's best characteristics imo. 😂
Why godless alone people are obsessed with God?? and talk about him more then a believer? Well for many reason.... 1) About that BS called atheism there is not much things to say, no value, no sacred things and and it leads to nothing. 2 And then because they know they are so many godless alone people that will run to kiss their ass... 3 they do that so this cult can be alive, otherwise is destined to vanish, exactly from the nothing it comes... because is nothing but a cult that has nothing to offer to us and neither to the godless alone people who belonged to 4 And finally this cult will be vanished without those videos and those godless alone people will be just alone.
They even have less sacred thing their alone miserable f
Life. What fools!
And who said the opposite is a godless alone hypocrite.
This cult called atheism is so empty... And those godless alone people really have nothing to offer to themselves.
They have less sacred things then us... what an idiots they are for that too.
Let's hope in a better generation because this is so lost.Can we move for the next one? Do. not write me, you disgusting godless ass kisser (you left God and your dignity for this empty cult called atheism).
@@maskedsaiyan1738 Why godless alone people are obsessed with God?? and talk about him more then a believer? Well for many reason.... 1) About that BS called atheism there is not much things to say, no value, no sacred things and and it leads to nothing. 2 And then because they know they are so many godless alone people that will run to kiss their ass... 3 they do that so this cult can be alive, otherwise is destined to vanish, exactly from the nothing it comes... because is nothing but a cult that has nothing to offer to us and neither to the godless alone people who belonged to 4 And finally this cult will be vanished without those videos and those godless alone people will be just alone.
They even have less sacred thing their alone miserable f
Life. What fools!
And who said the opposite is a godless alone hypocrite.
This cult called atheism is so empty... And those godless alone people really have nothing to offer to themselves.
They have less sacred things then us... what an idiots they are for that too.
Let's hope in a better generation because this is so lost.Can we move for the next one? Do. not write me, you disgusting godless ass kisser (you left God and your dignity for this empty cult called atheism).
In the bible, above each gospel it says, 'the gospel according to ...' Even here there is no claim that the four gospels were written by their name-giver.
And those titles were added thousands of years later.
Except that the "according to" are trying to claim who wrote them not who they are from. Church history has Mark writing for Peter and John writing for the "beloved disciple" and Luke writing for "eye-witnesses".
Why godless alone people are obsessed with God?? and talk about him more then a believer? Well for many reason.... 1) About that BS called atheism there is not much things to say, no value, no sacred things and and it leads to nothing. 2 And then because they know they are so many godless alone people that will run to kiss their ass... 3 they do that so this cult can be alive, otherwise is destined to vanish, exactly from the nothing it comes... because is nothing but a cult that has nothing to offer to us and neither to the godless alone people who belonged to 4 And finally this cult will be vanished without those videos and those godless alone people will be just alone.
They even have less sacred thing their alone miserable f
Life. What fools!
And who said the opposite is a godless alone hypocrite.
This cult called atheism is so empty... And those godless alone people really have nothing to offer to themselves.
They have less sacred things then us... what an idiots they are for that too.
Let's hope in a better generation because this is so lost.Can we move for the next one? Do. not write me, you disgusting godless ass kisser (you left God and your dignity for this empty cult called atheism).
@@ericcraig3875not thousands of years but they are not original
@goldenalt3166 another word for "church history" and "church tradition" is fraud.
Great guest Paul!! I like her she is well educated on the subject clearly & explains things so well. She definitely chose the right profession 😂👍
Things were inserted in the text... the imagery!
LOL! is that what I thought it was??
*_Seeing only what he wants to see_** ;*
Frank only wants to confirm his assumed beliefs.
The ambiguity of the bible allows Frank to "cherry pick" his way to what ever he wants to believe.
Hm, in some of the videos, the Jesus actor is sooooo white!
There’s two TH-cam ads I get recently, one with Jim Cavizel (sp?) and another white actor playing Jesus in something else, and I’m always like, you don’t look like Jesus
Why godless alone people are obsessed with God?? and talk about him more then a believer? Well for many reason.... 1) About that BS called atheism there is not much things to say, no value, no sacred things and and it leads to nothing. 2 And then because they know they are so many godless alone people that will run to kiss their ass... 3 they do that so this cult can be alive, otherwise is destined to vanish, exactly from the nothing it comes... because is nothing but a cult that has nothing to offer to us and neither to the godless alone people who belonged to 4 And finally this cult will be vanished without those videos and those godless alone people will be just alone.
They even have less sacred thing their alone miserable f
Life. What fools!
And who said the opposite is a godless alone hypocrite.
This cult called atheism is so empty... And those godless alone people really have nothing to offer to themselves.
They have less sacred things then us... what an idiots they are for that too.
Let's hope in a better generation because this is so lost.Can we move for the next one? Do. not write me, you disgusting godless ass kisser (you left God and your dignity for this empty cult called atheism).
My favorite version of that metaphor (or is it a idiom?) is "i don't have a horse in this fight"
My favorite, "this isn't rocket surgery".
Keeping those apologists in check is like herding worms.
Where did you get that video of those kids gawking at that phone?!? It's priceless.
Robyn an amazing scholar, her cartoon image doesn't do her justice.
Oh, she's an amazing scholar because of her appearance? That's problematic
That's funny. Hahaha
@@karenmiller6088 I'm the Karen here Karen
One of the few avatars not as good looking as the actual person.