I love that you don't play any favorites and you treat each team the same. Very hard to find a news source which is not biased in todays world...Good job guys!
11:10 - Not sure when this episode was recorded, but I believe Hutchinson said it was the interior structure of the boat guillotining the carbon hull in his press conference.
recorded straight after racing on Sunday... battery was the rumour I got from a guy on the ground in Auckland. I think we'll never know for sure, they're not going to admit it was the battery. But I'm prepared to admit it's nothing more than rumour.
Do you guys know what causes the weird noise heard all the time on American Magic? It doesn't seem to be the tension in the sails rigging so I guess it's some mechanical component such as some very noisy actuator or so? I find very curious the fact that only AM produces this sound.
I do hope Dean is reading all the comments here. Imagine his satisfaction if they get through the repechage. Likely this gallery will attribute it to superior boat speed. Interesting not a peep on Burling's start form. Slingsby, Outteridge, and even Ashby may have his measure in the start box. Sure will be interesting to watch SailGP series. Hasn't Spithill trashed more AC boats than Barker...
Mozzy - I think that the US boat looks twitchy, whenever they are not dominant (as they were pre-Christmas). Maybe the "fluid" team set up you were talking about at 4:35. Don't know if the data supports this, but if they have to go for a pinching mode upwind....or sail outside their envelope..... or make a last minute call, then the drills all seem to get much wobblier. Getting up on their foils seems a tougher ask. Both Prada and INEOS looked very solid around the corners by comparison. I wonder what they will change in terms of power generation on board .... if they can make gains in that department then Terry Hutchinson gets his eyes out of the boat and team comms will improve. You have it right, that they are all out for top speed - I wonder if the hull design is now hurting them, compared to Prada and INEOS in the light. Surely too late to change much about that.
Unfortunately I fear it's all over for AM at this point. They clearly have a fast boat (at least in the higher winds), but the herculean task they now have to fix it means they can't pay the same attention to making upgrades or addressing the comms/role issues that clearly exist. The rest of the teams won't be standing still and are clearly going to improve further by the time the semi-final comes around. Hopefully they can at least make the semi-final and be competitive, as the Prada Cup "show" will be much diminished by a drop from 3 to 2 boats.
If you look at Luna Rosa after the capsize, you see they were having extreme difficulty with the gust. Magic got caught by a perfect gust at the worst time. Rosa caught the gust upwind and barely stayed upright, but overshot the mark, unable to do anything else but hold on. When Rosa finally managed to round downwind, they almost stuffed it several times on the downwind. This was not a crew, boat, or tactical problem. It was 11 knot gust in 12 seconds that was unforeseeable at the time. If any other team was in the same position with a 36 not acceleration around a top mark they would have launched too.
After repeatedly seeing the footage of American Magic leaping out of the water as it did, I would say Spacex has some competition in bringing people to the space station.
Guys - I would observe that the local boy on Patriot is Deano. His family home overlooked Takapuna Beach. He has been sailing there since childhood. He has decades of experience racing on Hauraki Gulf and Waitemata Harbour. This is at once a blessing and a potential problem, it makes it easier for him to justify ignoring advice coming from other crew members.
5:00 A really insightful comment on Barker and the intra-team communication. Overruling your tacticians is OK as long as you're right! Perhaps AM has a protocol around such overruling e.g. Barker can do it, but a brains trust of one is fraught with risk.
Does AMagic have to be measured on the Wednesday prior to the Friday of racing? Isn’t there a Wednesday deadline? If it is, there’s even less time than has been talked about so far..
In the press conference they stated that the hole was caused by the impact with the water, not from the battery being thrown loose. The boat landed with that part of the hull flat against the water, and the skin in that area is two very thin carbon layers sandwiching a core material and won't have been designed to absorb the dynamic loads generated by an impact like that. Have a look at the picture of the piece they recovered from the water - it really is quite delicate.
Yeah, we recorded this pretty soon after racing on Sunday, and the battery was the rumour from my source in Auckland, but sounds like that could be wrong. On the other hand, Terry said both batteries were account for, but he didn't outright deny one had come loose...
Analizing the hole and the direction of the carbon fibers in this damaged part, there is a reason to think that the impact on the structure, start from inside the boat, caused by a heavy element like battery, for example. Hope they will back soon.
@@adrianobonaldo8941 Here's a picture of the missing piece: i.redd.it/1ueu688ubfc61.jpg You can see how thin the carbon skin is. Stiff and strong when loaded as designed, but a heavy load perpendicular to the surface could easily cause damage.
How much power do these grinders generate? Top racing cyclists can easily put out over 400w for an hour, but would pedal operated grinding stations go against the rules?
When they were first on there side, they took of a round hatch, I guess to inspect for damage, before they took of this hatch they were floating high, taking the hatch off was akin to taking the bung out of your air mattress, it all seemed to go pair shaped after that, are my observation wrong?
Can help noticing from the forward facing camera that the main is often sheeted above the centreline. how can this be fast? As for the tactician role, this needs to be a 100% stand alone role. decision making when under physical strain is often questionable. He needs to sit behind the helmsman whispering in his ear....
While watching the practice sessions it seemed Magic did better in the higher wind speeds. Ineo did better on the low wind speeds. Luna Rossa did better on the turns and accelerating after a turn and on getting up on the foils faster. I think they are still like that. So it still is anyone's race.... because it is only the Semi-final and Final that count.
First round Prada Cup was a thorough and tough exam for all challengers.Sailed in average, as well as, high and low extremes of agreed wind (and sea state) protocols. Team UK put in very good all round performance. Displayed "wizardry" in light air by sailing series of difficult foiling and displacement transitions, connecting all dots of course "chess puzzle, to actually finish and cover 20 km of light air race in 43 minutes. Average boat speed of 14 knots in gentlest of variable puffs ... amazing!!. Prado excels in average wind conditions. More than a match with others. Tactics seeming to be main point of difference. Data suggests down wind sailing angles and speed need more work in a blow. If so, task ahead will be to further "micro tune" rudder and foil trim tab settings to make underwater setup a bit more slippery. Perhaps also need to "play with" mainsail "shape" a bit for more power and efficiency. Trying "one skipper" for more focused, aggressive starts worth trying given importance of first across line"control" in windward start match races. Also would be fun seeing Spithill's well known, measured "agro" unleashed as he leads the boarding party with knife clenched between teeth. No question Patriot is optimised for mid to high range and is a missile in higher winds.Light winds likely will continue be an Achilles heel given their smaller foil configuration. Crew work has actually been pretty slick in "controlled" mid range conditions, They beautifully foiled through a full 360 degree turn in 15 knots of wind during practice week before the races( there is a vid on web). An exceptional foiling move. Clearly crew had issues dealing with a "white knuckle" moment and crashing in last race. If, as speculated, there is a Command "structure and culture" contributing issue with Barker and others, then Hutchinson needs to take charge and get it sorted out urgently. At the moment, visibility into matter is limited due to "political cone of silence" in effect. Very understandable, given very high stakes, array of crew and other stakeholders/supporters to be managed. Hopefully they get back to contest repechage round.Fingers crossed for a successful rebuild so we get to see who has best boat and crew. Can't wait for next rounds.
This is really great stuff. Thanks! Say, all of the teams are constantly playing the traveler - what do you think they are responding to? Are lulls and puffs arriving that fast?
There appears to be an enormous split on the outboard side of the hole. I suspect that there is internal structural damage. The hole itself is quite easily repaired, at least if its not too pretty.
Are there any rules on boat weight? Is American Magic a lighter boat? What makes me think this is two-fold: Firstly, they seemed to hole easily. Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, they have a larger weight bulb on their foils. This could be because they are lighter and so need their weight on a longer lever arm upwind of their centre of gravity. Weight is important on any boat, but on a foiling boat it’s absolutely critical. This could also explain their relatively small and higher aspect ratio, and therefore less drag inducing, foils. What are your thoughts?
Theres very tight rules on boat weight with a range of about a 100 kilo or so. Off the top of my head it's about 6500 kilo of boat plus 1100 kilo of crew.
The weight of the foils is stipulated too. So, if you make them smaller, like Magic have, the you need a bulb for the weight (plus maybe housing foil workings). We've a foil design video coming up...
Solution is to go back to a standard after-guard. Go with six grinders. Terry can't do this job if his head is into grinding. Period. Dean needs to go back to steering only. Maybe the timeout is what they need. And they probably had a wish list of things to change if they had down time, so now they do. That said, I don't think they can come back from this. I can't believe NYYC is pleased with any of this. Great discussion!
They don’t appear to benefiting from the home boy Dean Barker and his local sailing knowledge of the Hauraki Gulf. I’ve raced this harbour many years and it can be fluky. I think Dean is losing it under pressure. Look at San Francisco when they were 7 v 0 up....
They will finish last in the round robin, but hope to get the boat working for the semi finals which will be against whoever finishes second between INEOS and Luna Rossa. The winner get a by to the challenger series final.
Probably would have been applauded as wise old Gandolf the Grey if someone had let the main twist off & accelerate, there is no way for a helmsman no matter who it is to make those on the edge maneuvers unless the team works together & that was one shocking banana skin someone left on deck. But I agree some people seem cursed with misfortune, if you can call getting paid maga bucks being an old fella helming a Prada cup space craft or grinding/having your arms turned by the other guy a misfortune! However I have been going down to the beach at midnight with my bird bone, carbon fibre & battery terminal necklace to dance naked & watch the fish swimming in the phosphorescence (quite good lately in Auckland, perhaps we could have some night races?) this will hopefully lift the curse & I will see a revitalised crew & two Kiwi helmsman in the Americas cup.
Barker nearly made it in San Francisco! There was even a race he was leading decisively but the wind died. After that Oracle re-tuned their cat and made it significantly faster while NZ was unable to improve anymore. You are not gonna to win having slower boat, not even a single race. It had to be very frustrating. The real reason was the cat, not the manner of sailing it.
Yeah, but they changed the tune of their cat at the same time! Oracle then became regularly faster on all beats regardless how or where NZ sailed. NZ could only hope for a gross failure which did not happen.
In Barker's defence I just don't think that AM would be where they are today without his experience. It's an opinion I can't really back up with facts apart from the reports early on that AM were the best at maneouvres. Anyway I think he has been key in their development and he has been a highly influential character in the age of foils and he deserves a lot more respect for that than he has received. On the flip side I agree that when it comes to racing he just doesn't stand up to the rest of them and personally it seems like he is often stuck between decisions. Not really great for match racing.
It’s called crew resource management (CRM) in an aircraft cockpit. We have over 100 years of ignored advice that feeds into current CRM training. Thank goodness he wasn’t flying an airliner with 300 passengers.
They have a fast competitive boat no doubt . Dean is not the right man . He’s had enough chances to prove himself and hasn’t . There’s a reason why Burling took his roll and won the cup 2017 and won the cup for NZ.
Very good analysis. Completely agree Terry has to stop grinding. Like you I’m not sure that ultimately Dean is up to the level of the other AC helms. Although at this late stage I’m not sure a switch is really practical. I think they just have to prey for medium airs....but in the end successful teams always seem to ‘make’ their luck !!!
Terry Hutchinson is named skipper he needs to do that, listen to the other boats, clear chains of command and decision making not chatter among the committee.
Yes, that's the crux of the problem: the tafterguard needs to be more blunt and assertive in giving advice. Instead of saying the tack bear away is a hard maneuver, Goodison should have said "oo risky- go straight bear away then gybe"
Yes, it was like a Sunday school conversation, indeed. They can be forced to talk this way knowing that they are listened publicly. Or it is the manner they are mutually accustumed to communicate. Who knows.
Let's call a spade a spade: the afterguard on Luna Rossa and American Magic are good but not in the same league as Ineos and ETNZ. In equal boats Ineos wins the Prada Cup and it's a race in the AC itself. The Luna Rossa and US campaigns need to hire the best sailors, not just good ones. What for e.g is Outteridge doing commentating? Goodison as main trimmer, which I'm sure he's excellent at, but really the best use of his capabilities? Why is Slingers not steering something? AC is a design event, like F1, and the best F1 teams have great management. That means getting the best people in the best places for their capabilities. It's pretty evident that these AC teams have nowhere near that clarity of thinking.
Too much on Terrys’ plate . Tactician needs to see everything all the time . This leads to Dean not trusting info and overruling more than needed. Poor cockpit setup and strained coms lead to mistakes . Live and learn .
Hero to zero is only a fraction of a second... releasing that running back stay might have been just 2inches away from happening... everyone onboard said "this is going to be tricky"... Dean said it at least twice... the left side of the course AND the windward buoy was the favoured side AND the mark planned for... & EVERYONE was prepared for... you dont change that many factors to go around the other mark at a whim... especially when the wind turns even more in favour of the planned mark... they ARE the fastest of the challengers... just getting it all together... conservative DOESNT win races
It's a good theory and I like your supportive attitude, but the body of work from this team is troubling. Just showing up late to the start box repeatedly and taking penalties? They look like amateurs. Dean Barker has been the central figure in so many high profile disasters it's hard to defend as bad luck.
Terry has got to stop grinding and be a tactician. The last three starts were disastrous. I absolutely believe Dean Barker has lost the confidence of the crew. I don't think they recover for this cup, sad to say.
In any genre you underestimate Americans at your peril but particularly in sport. They will sort this problem & will be in contention when the time comes you can be sure. Good luck American Magic, but better luck to INEOS :)
Yes, they are dead and DB has lost his balls. (This is written just after they have been schooled 2 - 0 by Luna Rossa and Jimmy. Why the NY Yacht club decided to hire DB after the San Francisco debacle and other failures is hard to fathom.)
The brain uses about 1 watt of power per hour. American Magic needs one person's 1 watt to be focused on sailing tactics, strategies and decisions. Sailing by committee at these speeds will not work.
Recorded straight after racing on Sunday, before and press releases... battery was the rumour I got from a guy on the ground in Auckland. I think we'll never know for sure, they're not going to admit it was a battery even if it was. But I'm prepared to admit it's nothing more than rumour.
American magic! This channel has mentioned that Terry Hutchison is highly experienced and it might not be best for him to be a grinder. I agree just listening to him talk about it and some other things. In my life I wanted to be a car designer and prerequisites were not available. In my early 20s I got in to manufacturing and took some courses. Trying to change careers has been difficult. I look at engineering stuff all the time I got in to civil engineering and then boat parades haulover inlet black pearl sailing yacht a. Then the vendee globe is going and theres structural damages.
If you look at what other sailors had to do to become Americas' Cup sailors many of whom have won multiple Olympics, Barker comes across as a sailor of privilege who was LUCKY ENOUGH to know Coutts rather than a sailor who earned his place through merit rather than connections... and now increasingly that privilege is becoming is undoing as younger sailors with greater skillsets increasingly show him up.
"Barker comes across ..." how so exactly? I'm totally mystified by all the Barker hate. He was the standout tactician in the WS, and if AM had not capsized (in far worse conditions than when NZ did), it would likely be a favorite to challenge. Write him/them off at your peril.
@@koho its easy...Barker's track record speaks for itself. He has never excelled at the Olympics. His introduction to AMC was because of Coutts which screams cronyism. When he wins an Olympics like almost every other sailor there then he can claim to have earned his place on merit not connections... If Barker say chose to compete in the Olympics and won in a strict one class international competition he could silence his critics yet he chooses not too... One wonders why....
They don't have match racing at the Olympics, Deans best result there was a 13 if that number means anything to anybody, maybe wishes he had never bothered with Olympic side of sailing. As a Kiwi Dean is the best helm for the Americas Cup, we don't want to see 1.5 Aussie helms in the Prada Cup they need to get a boat 1st. Let's see an Olympic sailor pull off that move with a big bag of a main.
Speed is nothing without control. So claiming that AM is "the best boat" makes me laugh. If they have zero points after RR1 it mean that they are no way near the best boats. The best boat isnthe one that reached a mixed balance between speed and contro...britannia, luna rossa, etnz. AM is greatly unbalanced upon speed.
Dean Barker is one of the fastest helmsman in the world. The absent role is the tactician, who was supposed to call the game. This was supposed to be Hutchinson, the most expensive grinder in the cup.
Agreed, how many Olympics has Barker won again? Privilege and connections might get you into the AMC but it won't win you starts against Olympic medalists and AMC champions that earned their way there...tellingly TNZ replace him with actual medalists then win... #ouch
@@r77madder Don’t get me wrong, we and I am sure Mark and NZ as well know that Dean is a nice guy, but for anyone to suggest that Dean is in the top echelon of world sailors is ludicrous. Team NZ did the right thing in choosing Peter Burling. My advice to American Magic is to replace Dean. Auckland. John.
I'd asked the question weeks ago if potentially having the fastest boat can overcome having the worst of 4 helmsmen and probably tactician too (esp in his "position" ). No, I would say. Have a mate who raced Barker in laser and Finn's back in the day. He got where he got (at least initially) through a rich/well connected family. He was not all that then and certainly isn't now.
@@johnmartin7158 yes... we all know about Barker in the sailing community.... connections can get you on an AC95 whilst better sailors miss out but it won't let you beat better sailors on the water...
@@johnmartin7158 exactly... no-ones saying he isn't competent but he doesn't really deserve to be there and Teams that choose him will suffer as a result. Better to choose emerging talent as Team New Zealand did.
I love that you don't play any favorites and you treat each team the same. Very hard to find a news source which is not biased in todays world...Good job guys!
outstanding channel guys. incisive and considered. keep it coming please
11:10 - Not sure when this episode was recorded, but I believe Hutchinson said it was the interior structure of the boat guillotining the carbon hull in his press conference.
Bit more eco-friendly than saying there's a huge battery at the bottom of the harbour.
recorded straight after racing on Sunday... battery was the rumour I got from a guy on the ground in Auckland.
I think we'll never know for sure, they're not going to admit it was the battery. But I'm prepared to admit it's nothing more than rumour.
@@MozzySails Cool. I had a feeling the audio and the video posting date weren't the same day. Keep up the great work.
@@MozzySails no battery’s went in the water the hole was caused by the twisting force on the boat when it crashed
@@petersangmeister3397 it was too uniform
Do you guys know what causes the weird noise heard all the time on American Magic? It doesn't seem to be the tension in the sails rigging so I guess it's some mechanical component such as some very noisy actuator or so? I find very curious the fact that only AM produces this sound.
I’m hoping it returns with the same sound. I’ve become fond of it :)
Extremely good channel this one. Hard hitting and these 2 analysts call it as it is.
Auckland. John
Thanks John!
Superbly critiqued... Well done guys, I really enjoyed your analysis.
I do hope Dean is reading all the comments here. Imagine his satisfaction if they get through the repechage. Likely this gallery will attribute it to superior boat speed. Interesting not a peep on Burling's start form. Slingsby, Outteridge, and even Ashby may have his measure in the start box. Sure will be interesting to watch SailGP series. Hasn't Spithill trashed more AC boats than Barker...
Mozzy - I think that the US boat looks twitchy, whenever they are not dominant (as they were pre-Christmas). Maybe the "fluid" team set up you were talking about at 4:35. Don't know if the data supports this, but if they have to go for a pinching mode upwind....or sail outside their envelope..... or make a last minute call, then the drills all seem to get much wobblier. Getting up on their foils seems a tougher ask. Both Prada and INEOS looked very solid around the corners by comparison. I wonder what they will change in terms of power generation on board .... if they can make gains in that department then Terry Hutchinson gets his eyes out of the boat and team comms will improve. You have it right, that they are all out for top speed - I wonder if the hull design is now hurting them, compared to Prada and INEOS in the light. Surely too late to change much about that.
Unfortunately I fear it's all over for AM at this point. They clearly have a fast boat (at least in the higher winds), but the herculean task they now have to fix it means they can't pay the same attention to making upgrades or addressing the comms/role issues that clearly exist. The rest of the teams won't be standing still and are clearly going to improve further by the time the semi-final comes around. Hopefully they can at least make the semi-final and be competitive, as the Prada Cup "show" will be much diminished by a drop from 3 to 2 boats.
If you look at Luna Rosa after the capsize, you see they were having extreme difficulty with the gust. Magic got caught by a perfect gust at the worst time. Rosa caught the gust upwind and barely stayed upright, but overshot the mark, unable to do anything else but hold on. When Rosa finally managed to round downwind, they almost stuffed it several times on the downwind. This was not a crew, boat, or tactical problem. It was 11 knot gust in 12 seconds that was unforeseeable at the time. If any other team was in the same position with a 36 not acceleration around a top mark they would have launched too.
They overshot the mark because:
1) AM capsized, and they wanted to pass afar from them.
2) There was no rush.
After repeatedly seeing the footage of American Magic leaping out of the water as it did, I would say Spacex has some competition in bringing people to the space station.
They’ve got Goodison onboard that’s a positive, now someone just needs to listen to him! Get Terry off the pumps and concentrate on calling it
Agreed. Paul will be a brilliant future Americas Cup skipper. In the meantime I hope he doesn't do for them what Ben did for Oracle in 2013.
Great Analysis keep em coming!
Guys - I would observe that the local boy on Patriot is Deano. His family home overlooked Takapuna Beach. He has been sailing there since childhood. He has decades of experience racing on Hauraki Gulf and Waitemata Harbour. This is at once a blessing and a potential problem, it makes it easier for him to justify ignoring advice coming from other crew members.
5:00 A really insightful comment on Barker and the intra-team communication. Overruling your tacticians is OK as long as you're right! Perhaps AM has a protocol around such overruling e.g. Barker can do it, but a brains trust of one is fraught with risk.
Does AMagic have to be measured on the Wednesday prior to the Friday of racing? Isn’t there a Wednesday deadline? If it is, there’s even less time than has been talked about so far..
Excellent discussion.
Best breakdown of AM to date!!! Well done mates 🍺🍺🍺
In the press conference they stated that the hole was caused by the impact with the water, not from the battery being thrown loose. The boat landed with that part of the hull flat against the water, and the skin in that area is two very thin carbon layers sandwiching a core material and won't have been designed to absorb the dynamic loads generated by an impact like that. Have a look at the picture of the piece they recovered from the water - it really is quite delicate.
Yeah, we recorded this pretty soon after racing on Sunday, and the battery was the rumour from my source in Auckland, but sounds like that could be wrong. On the other hand, Terry said both batteries were account for, but he didn't outright deny one had come loose...
I’m not so sure, as it takes off before the slam down you can see 2 small black shapes behind the foils, was it breaking up before the slam down
@@rwg2626 check out this video for more insight to the debris prior to the crash th-cam.com/video/jS8pBk7Q8Cs/w-d-xo.html
Analizing the hole and the direction of the carbon fibers in this damaged part, there is a reason to think that the impact on the structure, start from inside the boat, caused by a heavy element like battery, for example. Hope they will back soon.
@@adrianobonaldo8941 Here's a picture of the missing piece: i.redd.it/1ueu688ubfc61.jpg You can see how thin the carbon skin is. Stiff and strong when loaded as designed, but a heavy load perpendicular to the surface could easily cause damage.
How much power do these grinders generate? Top racing cyclists can easily put out over 400w for an hour, but would pedal operated grinding stations go against the rules?
Yes, the Kiwis had cycling grinders in the last cup.
Great analysis. Nice job guys.
Much appreciated!
When they were first on there side, they took of a round hatch, I guess to inspect for damage, before they took of this hatch they were floating high, taking the hatch off was akin to taking the bung out of your air mattress, it all seemed to go pair shaped after that, are my observation wrong?
Can help noticing from the forward facing camera that the main is often sheeted above the centreline. how can this be fast? As for the tactician role, this needs to be a 100% stand alone role. decision making when under physical strain is often questionable. He needs to sit behind the helmsman whispering in his ear....
While watching the practice sessions it seemed Magic did better in the higher wind speeds. Ineo did better on the low wind speeds. Luna Rossa did better on the turns and accelerating after a turn and on getting up on the foils faster. I think they are still like that. So it still is anyone's race.... because it is only the Semi-final and Final that count.
First round Prada Cup was a thorough and tough exam for all challengers.Sailed in average, as well as, high and low extremes of agreed wind (and sea state) protocols. Team UK put in very good all round performance. Displayed "wizardry" in light air by sailing series of difficult foiling and displacement transitions, connecting all dots of course "chess puzzle, to actually finish and cover 20 km of light air race in 43 minutes. Average boat speed of 14 knots in gentlest of variable puffs ... amazing!!. Prado excels in average wind conditions. More than a match with others. Tactics seeming to be main point of difference. Data suggests down wind sailing angles and speed need more work in a blow. If so, task ahead will be to further "micro tune" rudder and foil trim tab settings to make underwater setup a bit more slippery. Perhaps also need to "play with" mainsail "shape" a bit for more power and efficiency. Trying "one skipper" for more focused, aggressive starts worth trying given importance of first across line"control" in windward start match races. Also would be fun seeing Spithill's well known, measured "agro" unleashed as he leads the boarding party with knife clenched between teeth. No question Patriot is optimised for mid to high range and is a missile in higher winds.Light winds likely will continue be an Achilles heel given their smaller foil configuration. Crew work has actually been pretty slick in "controlled" mid range conditions, They beautifully foiled through a full 360 degree turn in 15 knots of wind during practice week before the races( there is a vid on web). An exceptional foiling move. Clearly crew had issues dealing with a "white knuckle" moment and crashing in last race. If, as speculated, there is a Command "structure and culture" contributing issue with Barker and others, then Hutchinson needs to take charge and get it sorted out urgently. At the moment, visibility into matter is limited due to "political cone of silence" in effect. Very understandable, given very high stakes, array of crew and other stakeholders/supporters to be managed. Hopefully they get back to contest repechage round.Fingers crossed for a successful rebuild so we get to see who has best boat and crew. Can't wait for next rounds.
Total damage? How do teams handle overrule when they go bad?
Your explanation of internal force makes more sense as they did not hit the water that hard in that area
How do straight line speeds compare after these races?
This is really great stuff. Thanks!
Say, all of the teams are constantly playing the traveler - what do you think they are responding to? Are lulls and puffs arriving that fast?
There appears to be an enormous split on the outboard side of the hole. I suspect that there is internal structural damage. The hole itself is quite easily repaired, at least if its not too pretty.
I think there is even stress related cracking on the starboard side of the bottom
Are there any rules on boat weight? Is American Magic a lighter boat? What makes me think this is two-fold: Firstly, they seemed to hole easily. Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, they have a larger weight bulb on their foils. This could be because they are lighter and so need their weight on a longer lever arm upwind of their centre of gravity. Weight is important on any boat, but on a foiling boat it’s absolutely critical. This could also explain their relatively small and higher aspect ratio, and therefore less drag inducing, foils. What are your thoughts?
Theres very tight rules on boat weight with a range of about a 100 kilo or so. Off the top of my head it's about 6500 kilo of boat plus 1100 kilo of crew.
@@MozzySails interesting though that they’ve got those weight bulbs. I wonder why? 🤔
The weight of the foils is stipulated too. So, if you make them smaller, like Magic have, the you need a bulb for the weight (plus maybe housing foil workings). We've a foil design video coming up...
If it breaks its too light, if it doesn’t break it’s too heavy.
Is there a schematic online of ac interior?
It would have been good to listen to the tactical calls from Terry to Dean from 2007 on TNZ and compare them to 2021 on AM.
Solution is to go back to a standard after-guard. Go with six grinders. Terry can't do this job if his head is into grinding. Period. Dean needs to go back to steering only. Maybe the timeout is what they need. And they probably had a wish list of things to change if they had down time, so now they do. That said, I don't think they can come back from this. I can't believe NYYC is pleased with any of this. Great discussion!
Great thumbnail. Pretty well sums it up.
Glad you think so!
They don’t appear to benefiting from the home boy Dean Barker and his local sailing knowledge of the Hauraki Gulf. I’ve raced this harbour many years and it can be fluky. I think Dean is losing it under pressure. Look at San Francisco when they were 7 v 0 up....
We must not lose hope! This just begin...
They were racing well in that race before the capsize. I mean it’s a fast boat, I guess. Are the mathematically eliminated?
They will finish last in the round robin, but hope to get the boat working for the semi finals which will be against whoever finishes second between INEOS and Luna Rossa. The winner get a by to the challenger series final.
Probably would have been applauded as wise old Gandolf the Grey if someone had let the main twist off & accelerate, there is no way for a helmsman no matter who it is to make those on the edge maneuvers unless the team works together & that was one shocking banana skin someone left on deck. But I agree some people seem cursed with misfortune, if you can call getting paid maga bucks being an old fella helming a Prada cup space craft or grinding/having your arms turned by the other guy a misfortune! However I have been going down to the beach at midnight with my bird bone, carbon fibre & battery terminal necklace to dance naked & watch the fish swimming in the phosphorescence (quite good lately in Auckland, perhaps we could have some night races?) this will hopefully lift the curse & I will see a revitalised crew & two Kiwi helmsman in the Americas cup.
It would be nice to see DB have a run of luck. No doubt the boat is quick in the upper wind strength.
Barker nearly made it in San Francisco! There was even a race he was leading decisively but the wind died. After that Oracle re-tuned their cat and made it significantly faster while NZ was unable to improve anymore. You are not gonna to win having slower boat, not even a single race. It had to be very frustrating. The real reason was the cat, not the manner of sailing it.
1:43 time marker capture
In the SF cup (2013) the only reason for the turn around was Ben Ainslie who they employed to overcome an 8-1 deficit!!!!
Yeah, but they changed the tune of their cat at the same time!
Oracle then became regularly faster on all beats regardless how or where NZ sailed. NZ could only hope for a gross failure which did not happen.
Exactly- no question Ineos is helmed better than the others by the best match racing helmsman who feeds off his tactician
In Barker's defence I just don't think that AM would be where they are today without his experience. It's an opinion I can't really back up with facts apart from the reports early on that AM were the best at maneouvres. Anyway I think he has been key in their development and he has been a highly influential character in the age of foils and he deserves a lot more respect for that than he has received.
On the flip side I agree that when it comes to racing he just doesn't stand up to the rest of them and personally it seems like he is often stuck between decisions. Not really great for match racing.
It’s called crew resource management (CRM) in an aircraft cockpit. We have over 100 years of ignored advice that feeds into current CRM training.
Thank goodness he wasn’t flying an airliner with 300 passengers.
They have a fast competitive boat no doubt . Dean is not the right man . He’s had enough chances to prove himself and hasn’t . There’s a reason why Burling took his roll and won the cup 2017 and won the cup for NZ.
It’s sounds really silly but if the boats actually had their hulls in the water, that hull may have been a winner.
Water imposed massive drag.
These boats are doing 40+ knots, similar to 70km/h.
Drag at that speed shreds hulls.
Very good analysis. Completely agree Terry has to stop grinding. Like you I’m not sure that ultimately Dean is up to the level of the other AC helms. Although at this late stage I’m not sure a switch is really practical. I think they just have to prey for medium airs....but in the end successful teams always seem to ‘make’ their luck !!!
Terry Hutchinson is named skipper he needs to do that, listen to the other boats, clear chains of command and decision making not chatter among the committee.
Having boats even more dependent on a critical wind speed is not a great idea for the AC. It makes for tedious viewing.
Small foils work at higher speeds. Higher speeds come from higher winds. Higher winds caused them to capsize.
Yes, that's the crux of the problem: the tafterguard needs to be more blunt and assertive in giving advice. Instead of saying the tack bear away is a hard maneuver, Goodison should have said "oo risky- go straight bear away then gybe"
Yes, it was like a Sunday school conversation, indeed. They can be forced to talk this way knowing that they are listened publicly. Or it is the manner they are mutually accustumed to communicate. Who knows.
What do they need? Ben Ainslie?......
Dean Barker seems to be struggling. May need to look at sailing team structure as the boat does look fast.
Let's call a spade a spade: the afterguard on Luna Rossa and American Magic are good but not in the same league as Ineos and ETNZ. In equal boats Ineos wins the Prada Cup and it's a race in the AC itself. The Luna Rossa and US campaigns need to hire the best sailors, not just good ones. What for e.g is Outteridge doing commentating? Goodison as main trimmer, which I'm sure he's excellent at, but really the best use of his capabilities? Why is Slingers not steering something?
AC is a design event, like F1, and the best F1 teams have great management. That means getting the best people in the best places for their capabilities. It's pretty evident that these AC teams have nowhere near that clarity of thinking.
Too much on Terrys’ plate . Tactician needs to see everything all the time . This leads to Dean not trusting info and overruling more than needed. Poor cockpit setup and strained coms lead to mistakes . Live and learn .
Hero to zero is only a fraction of a second... releasing that running back stay might have been just 2inches away from happening... everyone onboard said "this is going to be tricky"... Dean said it at least twice... the left side of the course AND the windward buoy was the favoured side AND the mark planned for... & EVERYONE was prepared for... you dont change that many factors to go around the other mark at a whim... especially when the wind turns even more in favour of the planned mark... they ARE the fastest of the challengers... just getting it all together... conservative DOESNT win races
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It's a good theory and I like your supportive attitude, but the body of work from this team is troubling. Just showing up late to the start box repeatedly and taking penalties? They look like amateurs. Dean Barker has been the central figure in so many high profile disasters it's hard to defend as bad luck.
Terry has got to stop grinding and be a tactician. The last three starts were disastrous. I absolutely believe Dean Barker has lost the confidence of the crew. I don't think they recover for this cup, sad to say.
Agree
Dean Barker F1 driver analogy not the most appropriate. IMO premiership football manager a better analogy.
In any genre you underestimate Americans at your peril but particularly in sport. They will sort this problem & will be in contention when the time comes you can be sure. Good luck American Magic, but better luck to INEOS :)
Yes, they are dead and DB has lost his balls. (This is written just after they have been schooled 2 - 0 by Luna Rossa and Jimmy. Why the NY Yacht club decided to hire DB after the San Francisco debacle and other failures is hard to fathom.)
Basic rule to lash batteries down, any boat. Maybe battery fixings broke, don't know. BTW great channel. Streaming well in Bay of Islands!
I think the same, battery bracket or support, broken accidentally due the impact. Is a big hole what we seen.
The brain uses about 1 watt of power per hour. American Magic needs one person's 1 watt to be focused on sailing tactics, strategies and decisions. Sailing by committee at these speeds will not work.
Relying on high level technology they forgot wind and sea; from sailers they became drivers of hybrid monsters with human fed engines
It's easy to kick Dean Barker while he is down. *Proceeds to kick the absolute crap out of him*
yup... that pretty much sums up this video...
Thats i think also,therry would better be a full time taktishen.or help out fling..
Never rated Dean sorry, has has a character default i'm sure, nice bloke, NAthan is more of a rounded skipper, Dean is a good skipper but past SBD
wow, sunday quarterbacking
Nothing to do with batteries punching holes. These two are just talking rubbish
Recorded straight after racing on Sunday, before and press releases... battery was the rumour I got from a guy on the ground in Auckland.
I think we'll never know for sure, they're not going to admit it was a battery even if it was. But I'm prepared to admit it's nothing more than rumour.
Oh? Was it just impact with water from 20ft up? I don't think so, not for a big hole.
American magic! This channel has mentioned that Terry Hutchison is highly experienced and it might not be best for him to be a grinder. I agree just listening to him talk about it and some other things. In my life I wanted to be a car designer and prerequisites were not available. In my early 20s I got in to manufacturing and took some courses. Trying to change careers has been difficult. I look at engineering stuff all the time I got in to civil engineering and then boat parades haulover inlet black pearl sailing yacht a. Then the vendee globe is going and theres structural damages.
If you look at what other sailors had to do to become Americas' Cup sailors many of whom have won multiple Olympics, Barker comes across as a sailor of privilege who was LUCKY ENOUGH to know Coutts rather than a sailor who earned his place through merit rather than connections... and now increasingly that privilege is becoming is undoing as younger sailors with greater skillsets increasingly show him up.
"Barker comes across ..." how so exactly? I'm totally mystified by all the Barker hate. He was the standout tactician in the WS, and if AM had not capsized (in far worse conditions than when NZ did), it would likely be a favorite to challenge. Write him/them off at your peril.
@@koho its easy...Barker's track record speaks for itself. He has never excelled at the Olympics. His introduction to AMC was because of Coutts which screams cronyism. When he wins an Olympics like almost every other sailor there then he can claim to have earned his place on merit not connections... If Barker say chose to compete in the Olympics and won in a strict one class international competition he could silence his critics yet he chooses not too... One wonders why....
They don't have match racing at the Olympics, Deans best result there was a 13 if that number means anything to anybody, maybe wishes he had never bothered with Olympic side of sailing. As a Kiwi Dean is the best helm for the Americas Cup, we don't want to see 1.5 Aussie helms in the Prada Cup they need to get a boat 1st. Let's see an Olympic sailor pull off that move with a big bag of a main.
Now dean have to listen to terry ,but he grinding and asking more,u see this also-what we want!
Speed is nothing without control. So claiming that AM is "the best boat" makes me laugh. If they have zero points after RR1 it mean that they are no way near the best boats.
The best boat isnthe one that reached a mixed balance between speed and contro...britannia, luna rossa, etnz.
AM is greatly unbalanced upon speed.
You race you lose your dead... Its sports.
AUSTRALIA. WATCHING. WOW. 👍
Dean, should be out. Terry in. They havent made one start yet during the Prada Cup.
Dean Barker is one of the fastest helmsman in the world. The absent role is the tactician, who was supposed to call the game. This was supposed to be Hutchinson, the most expensive grinder in the cup.
@@cassioashauer3475 To say Dean is in the top 4 is a stretch isn’t it. I find that hard to believe.
I am all for replacing Dean on the helm.
Agreed, how many Olympics has Barker won again? Privilege and connections might get you into the AMC but it won't win you starts against Olympic medalists and AMC champions that earned their way there...tellingly TNZ replace him with actual medalists then win... #ouch
@@r77madder Don’t get me wrong, we and I am sure Mark and NZ as well know that Dean is a nice guy, but for anyone to suggest that Dean is in the top echelon of world sailors is ludicrous.
Team NZ did the right thing in choosing Peter Burling.
My advice to American Magic is to replace Dean.
Auckland. John.
Terry should just retire
Yes. They're dead.
I'd asked the question weeks ago if potentially having the fastest boat can overcome having the worst of 4 helmsmen and probably tactician too (esp in his "position" ). No, I would say.
Have a mate who raced Barker in laser and Finn's back in the day. He got where he got (at least initially) through a rich/well connected family. He was not all that then and certainly isn't now.
Dean is a good sailor, but not in this echelon though. American Magic would be better off changing helmsman, but don’t think they will though.
exactly! he's a posterboy for privilege.
@@r77madder That is true Mark. We in Auckland are aware of what you say. Are you from Auckland Mark ?
@@johnmartin7158 yes... we all know about Barker in the sailing community.... connections can get you on an AC95 whilst better sailors miss out but it won't let you beat better sailors on the water...
@@johnmartin7158 exactly... no-ones saying he isn't competent but he doesn't really deserve to be there and Teams that choose him will suffer as a result. Better to choose emerging talent as Team New Zealand did.
Terry should be sniffing what dean had for dinner the night before. No way he should be grinding
gg
Great analysis chaps, in marked contrast to the race commentators who sound like bimbos. Wish you were doing it.
BArker has to get off that boat..orlse its a failure for all on Magic