Frame, Crankset & Bottom Bracket combos that work best
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 มิ.ย. 2024
- Inspired by your comments, this quick opinion video is my take on what bottom bracket standards work best with what crankset. We focus on Hollowtech by Shimano, Ultra Torque from Campagnolo and DUB by SRAM.
Here is the best combos
* PF41 (aka Pressfit) matches best with Shimano Hollowtech 24mm Cranks using a Dura Ace Bottom Bracket
* BB386evo, PF30 or any other 46mm Dia Pressfit is best with a BB30 or SRAM Dub Crankset
* T47 is best with most things, but can get heavy when stepping down to Shimano
* BSA and Itallin is best for Shimano 24mm Hollowtech and Campagnolo
You can watch more videos on how we fix press fit bottom brackets we find that are misaligned or undersized here:
• I hope someone from BM...
• Unsafe by design... Wo... - กีฬา
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Great video! We need a bike build tutorial to show best practices for using Loctite, anti-seize, grease, carbon gripper, and when not to use anything at all.
Big subject. I might tackle that bite size.
@@Mapdecthis needs to be done
A few tips before a future video…
1. Loctite Thread Lockers. Used to lock or seal threads… not a substitute for an adhesive or gap filler. Best to use Loctite Blue, which is a medium sealer designed to prevent threads coming loose under vibration. Threads sealed with Loctite Blue can be disassembled without the use of heat (Loctite Red requires heat from a propane torch to break the adhesive bond and, because of this, isn’t generally used on bikes).
Clean male and female surfaces with brake cleaner or lacquer thinner (be careful because some cleaners and thinners are not paint or carbon safe). Let dry. Then clean parts a second time using a fresh swab. (Loctite makes a product for cleaning but this is much more difficult to find). Let dry. Place a small drop of Loctite on the male thread to be sealed. Then install and tighten to torque within a minute or two. Do not wipe off excess. Let dry for 24 hours.
Any subsequent disassembly or even re-torquing requires all of the steps to be repeated. Old thread locker will not “re-seal”. Thread lockers can be fairly difficult to remove too, sometimes requiring a small pick or brush to agitate particles free.
2. Anti-Seize. Used to prevent galling or reduce galvanic bonding. Numerous compounds… aluminum, zinc, copper, silver, ceramic. All of these have unique temperature ranges, none of which are bike part will ever come close to exceeding. So don’t worry about which anti-seize compound to use… they’ll all do the job.
Optimal use case is with dissimilar metals (prone to galvanic bonding) or stainless steel (prone to galling). Clean threads manually (no need for special cleaners), apply a thin swipe of anti-seize compound to male component, assemble, and tighten/torque. Anti-seize compounds are slippery and can increase tightness by reducing thread friction, so beware when approaching recommended fastener torques (which are usually intended for dry threads).
Wipe off excess. Avoid getting anti-seize compound on clothing… it’s almost impossible to remove… and hands.
Reapplication is not needed for simple disassembly or re-torquing. It’s usually needed if the fasteners are subjected to chemical solvents though.
3. Grease. Used for components subjected to movement, rotation, sliding etc. Grease is not a thread locker. Nor is it anti-seize, though it can work as a very poor substitute because some greases contain lithium or graphite compounds that reduce galling and displace moisture (the latter helps reduce electrolytic corrosion).
Books can be written about greases and there are industry systems for denoting grease quality (eg. NLGI #). A quick and dirty definition is that grease contains oil, thickening agents (called soaps), and some kind of metalloid compound (such as those based on lithium or molybdenum) held in suspension whose role it is to take load and absorb shock. Oils lack two or more of these constituents.
For all their complexities, greases can degrade over time. A sure sign of this is separation between the oil and soap. One often sees the result of this in very old grease where the oil has run out or evaporated, leaving behind a wax like substance. Anyone refurbishing old wheel bearings will have seen this.
Lighter weight greases (NLGI 0, 1 or 2) are used in most cycling applications because the bearing loads are modest, the operating temperatures are low, and there’s usually a requirement for reduced bearing drag. Synthetic NLGI 0, 1 or 2 greases, or those with Teflon additives are sometimes used when there is a need for very low drag, such as a freewheel hub or suspension components.
(To illustrate what I’m talking about here, Slickoleum grease specs as at NLGI 1.5… roughly the same as Park Tool’s HPG-1. PPL-1 appears to be a bit closer to NLGI 2. )
Racers will sometimes use oil instead of grease for some bearings but this raises the requirement for disassembly, cleaning, and lubrication after every ride. This also requires the replacement of components at the same time due to excessive wear.
Always wipe off excess grease after assembly… it attracts dirt. Grease is something that should be reapplied on a periodic basis… like annually on crank or wheel bearings or anytime a part is subjected to solvents.
Idk anything about carbon pastes, so can’t add anything on that subject.
When not to use anything at all…. Stems, bars, etc. are usually made from the same metal, so galvanic corrosion isn’t a big issue. They are supposed to be friction-tight too. Stem bolts do benefit from a dab of Loctite though, as this is a component that you don’t want rattling loose. Seat rails don’t require anything either, despite frequently being dissimilar metals (rails steel, clamp aluminum). Paint on these components adequately isolate the metals from direct contact.
Park Tool has a handy chart highlighting what to use for various applications. Scroll down to the bottom of the page…
www.parktool.com/en-int/blog/repair-help/the-park-tool-guide-to-bicycle-lubricants-and-compounds
My neighbour's Talon e3+ is falling apart and the dealer is in denial about it .
@@paulgrimshaw8334 I thought that this was the foreword of a thesis .
As an engineer, your tech videos are very refreshing and informative as opposed to those shallow tech videos on other channels. Keep up the good work.
Most of these issues are because many of the bottom bracket standards were literally designed so that the competitor's cranks wouldn't fit. Then engineers do backflips to "get it working" at the expense of long-term durability on the "other" groupset manufacturer. Looking at you BB86.
Bb86 works fine?
Loving the videos due to the technical aspects of building bikes. As a self confessed decent amateur bike mechanic, I've learned so much from your channel. Things I used to take for granted that the manufacturer had under control are now under scrutiny. It's sometimes hard though explaining to my friends that their £5k+ bike might need some fettling from new to be perfect. BB's are without doubt a major inconsistency it seem and definitely a focus. It could easily consume a channel just talking about one thing. Keep up the great work. I'd like to see some content on setting up a SRAM AXS system using non SRAM cranksets for instance. A lot of bike owners will mix and match all sorts components and whilst not ideal, still needs dealing with.
Another great vid. thanks for sharing the options for all the top brands.
thanks Paul, always insightful!
Great vid and good insight on the weight added on some BB systems for Shimano 👌
I tend to buy secondhand SRAM cranks with GXP, these work really well in a BB30 frame, using an adaptor from Wheels Manufacturers
Great great episode. Educative & helpful. I put this into my playlist. Thank you!
Glad it was helpful!
BB86/PF41 and Shimano does indeed work very well. I have a standard Ultegra BB in a 2019 Giant TCR that was installed when I bought the bike. That bike has tens of thousands of miles on it and the BB still turns glass smoothly today. I have another bike built with BSA and a Dub crank, no problems after many thousands of miles.
nice. One of the lucky ones.
@@MapdecLucky?? A majority have bb86 running just fine. Seems this rider is just one of most of us with no issues. It's the vocal minority that are the unlucky ones.
I did 10,000 miles in UK winter on a bb86. I took it out to rebuild the bike and it was still absolutely fine
Hambini T47 Trek BB has a been a life saver. Just now purchased bike with SRAM Apex 1x electronic, never used so hoping for a good experience🤞😊 Cheers for the video, informative as ever😊👍
Exactly what I needed!
Very Helpful! Thanks! 😎👍💯
Paul upside good to see this tech deep dive …………best bit of the channel and where it all started …………downside new BB standard Inevitable 🙄😂
I’ve been using some 6806 skf mtrx solid state grease bearings in my winter road bike and gravel bike. Plenty of miles and use. Brilliant for bad conditions. Last ages!
Great bearings for tough conditions. I once fitted them to a tricycle that went to the arctic.
Today I learned. Thanks ❤
3 hours ago I saw you at Bespoked yet a video is released.
You are organised bro!
Trying 😁. It was a good show. Hope you enjoyed it.
Omg dodged a bullet there! Was thinking of installing sram on my frame with a smaller bb hole
Don’t do that.
"There's way to many standards. Let's create a new standard to standardize all this." A manufacturer somewhere probably.
Finally, a Giant with a classy paint job.
Rotor with machined Rotor BB. Easy pairing.
Shimano cranks, Chris King bb into a Specialized threaded bb bsa frame. Never need new bearings and shimano just works.
Test a spreadsheet of combinations and rate the outcomes , EASY . This is what I did to condense it into an easy to understand form .
If using BSA and Dub, I recommend a Hope 30mm BSA. Low friction and durable. My one didn’t come with an axle liner though, so a novel solution may be needed if you’ve got internal hose/wiring.
(It was so good I then got a Hope T47 when changing frame)
29mm for dub 👍
@@Mapdec ah yeah true, anyone buying will need the hope reducer spacers, available separately 👍
Hope T47 BB came with those spacers in the box.
The cheep FSA TIME puts in the factory builds has worked perfectly for 3500 miles with GRX
Yep. If everything is made well, they work.
I think it's better to not use the converson or adaptor BB. It's always using the 3rd part brand. There are lots of problems.
Very informative
Would like to fit a SRAM Force into a second hand Enve MOG
T47 Internal or T 47 External ?
What would be your recommendation ?
Thx
The Mog is T47i 85,5mm. You won’t be able to fit an external.
It's worth mentioning that Rotor cranksets use 30mm axles so even bigger than SRAM DUB. I had one fitted on my pf86 look 785. Bad idea don't do that. I got Rotor Ceramic bearings but since the bottom bracket is very poor in terms of construction (I guess that's why the bike came with a token ninja bb which screws both ends together) and the bearings are very small it didn't take long for it to get creaky. I should have gone for a 24mm axle which Rotor also do.
So basically stick with Shimano and a BSA thread fit and forget. Else risk headaches.
BB86 would be better if your frame is sound.
It’s such a coincidence you’ve created this vid as I’m building supersix evo at the moment with Campagnolo 11 speed chorus mechanical. The frame is from 2014 with a PF30 68x46 bb ultra torque chorus crank.. going with either the Campagnolo protech press fit or the standard Campagnolo press fit cups.. from the vid I take it you’d go with either of these to ? Thanks for creating this vid dude.. Pete 🚴🏻🚴🏻👍😊😍🚴♀️
Perfect. Protech is a bit draggy. Stick to the original. Be sure to read the campagnolo manual.
@@Mapdec thanks for the reply 😊🚴🏻Pete
Hi Paul, Thank you for the video. Old Trek Domane BB90, What do people recommend? Thanks.
Shimano is your only choice now. Back when it was made GxP would be ok too.
@@Mapdec Thank you
Hi Paul! Recently I got a Cannondale EVO CX 2022/2023 bike on 1x Sram Force x Hologram crank groupset. The frame is amazing but the groupset is awful. I'm thinking about a swap to Shimano 11/12/GRX Di2 set but not sure about which BB I need or/and will it even work because of that asymmetrical system. I have seen this frames on Rival eTap group but don't like Sram unfortunately :) Thanks you in advance!
Ouch. What do you hate about AXS? Really Cannondale should use the special DUB Ai crank last they made SRAM make, instead of their hollowgram stuff. Running Shimano on these frames is a game of adaptors and shims.
@@Mapdec that's sad :) Another one - will a HG crank fit on a Canyon Inflite? :D I'm thinking about swapping a Sram Rival group from my previous bike then. Thx!
Aren't outboard bearings overall inferior to inboard bearings in regards to stiffness? When the bearing is outside of the shell, we're relying on the bearing cup and its interface with the frame to ensure there is no play, while inboard bearings sit inside the frame, so the entire bottom bracket shell is supporting it. This is my theory, please correct me if i'm wrong!
Weight and stiffness PF rules but you are relying on the frame manufacturer to make the holes bob on and they seem incapable of doing that largely.
I think it really depends on the BB shell. My custom steel has a BB shell that is machined from thick steel (in fact, I think it is pre-threaded and the BB is made extra thick so as to not warp during heating). It has ZERO problems with Campag Powertorque, the "lowest" spec crankset, with external BSA cups. In contrast, I routinely hear BB's creaking on the same climb I do, coming almost always with carbon frames and pressfit internal bearings. In fact, during the Pro Tour races, prior to threaded BBs in high end frames, I'd say that atleast 50% of the pro's bikes could be heard creaking as they stood up on a 12% gradient to make it over the top. We were quite surprised to witness this from bikes ridden by the likes Evans, Horner and Contador.
square taper ITA gang 💚🤍💯
if thats the case, do you work backwards of choosing what groupset i want to use > what BB will be best > what frame is best for this BB and then onwards, or the other way around??
Always start with the best frame for you, then (suspension) wheels, tyres and finally groupset.
@@Mapdec right ok, got it
After negative experience with DUB and Shimano cranks, I got some older SRAM GXP cranks cheap second hand. They're amazing. I found more really cheap, people don't want them, even though they fit all frames, spin extremely smoothly and last a while. DUB is a terrible downgrade
@Mapdec what would you recommend for a T47 85.5mm frame like the 795 blade rs2 with a 30mm alloy spindle from rotor powermeters? Just go for the rotor in-house t47 30 internal or for a chris king 30i that from my understanding has a bigger bearing and also a tiny adaptor to fit the 30mm? From a serviceability and cost point of view?
Go with the Rotor BB. If you want maybe pull out the stock 6806 and put some low contact NTN in there.
Is the extra cost of ck with plastic adaptor worth to save the alloy axle from damage?
@@Mapdec ahh yes that’s great advice, didn’t think of that! that’s gotta be the sweet spot in terms of final costs as well! thank you sir!
Build question for @mapdec that is relevant to this video. I just purchased a Look 795 iconic Edition and planned to install a 24 MM Look(SRM) origin crank set on it. However it seems that I will need about 5mm of spacers for the NDS to properly clear the NDS chainstay. Should I have gotten a 30MM axle on the crank? I can change the axle/spindle from 24 to 30mm. What do you think? Cheers
Sounds about right. The 30mm axle would be better.
@@Mapdec thank you!
I wish you addressed the bb30 more. I have an old bb30 frame and I'm wondering which spindles I can fit and how?
Namely, I've seen that not all 29mm spindles are the same - as in there is a discrepancy in spindle length (width) : if you have a shorter (narrower) spindle you have to run it on bb30 frame (like the FSA one that I have atm), but what happens when you want to put a longer (wider) spindle through a bb30 frame which has a narrower hole for shorter (narrower) spindles? Do you need some adapter and will you have problems with chain alignment?
Thanks
Depending on Cannondale asymmetry you will need adaptors and shims to step down, correct chain line and preload bearings.
I have a Time ADHX 45, GRX build with FSA BB. What’s a good BB upgrade?
Rotor do a direct 386evo to 24mm without adaptors.
Good place to ask I suppose, does anyone know of a PF41 BB that's compatible with Dub wide, and is thread together? My BB is fine at the moment and has been solid for the two years I've had it, but when it inevitably goes I'd like to upgrade.
I can’t see how that would be physically possible. It would need to be coke can thin.
@@Mapdec That was my suspicion, I may just get a new chainset with a 24mm axle when it comes time to replace the BB. Thanks for the advice.
I have a BB86 and Italian on my specialized and orbea. Totally fine and trouble free since the day I got them 2-3 years ago.
Don’t know why you folks have so much problems with your BBs. All you have to do to keep them trouble free is just display your bikes on the wall, and buy other bikes to ride 😂
😂
What bottom bracket for a s-works venge 2011 frame ? Thanks
OSBB (61 x 46 mm), Specialized's proprietary BB standard. Since 2015, they have ditched this BB standard.
What bottom bracket would you recommend, I have a bb86 and I would like to fit a sram dub crank
I recomend you avoid that combo at all cost.
I'm running BBInfinite BB86 for 30 mm. Zero issues. I'm pretty sure they sell adapters for DUB. Ask them, they are very responsive.
@@ivanivanov7064 thank you I’ll take a look
I see bb86 or pf86 on a lot of bikes these days as I was looking for a gravel bike, up to around €2500. is it only good for shimano? Is it any good at all?
@@HNedel yeah. I would only put Shimano on that.
Do you use grease or loctite for installing the Shimano Ultegra press fit bb?
Ohhhjj. Did you not read the instructions….. neither. Unless your frame is oversized Then you can choose to use a retaining compound to fill the gap.
@@MapdecUndersized? Not oversized? Don't undersized bores need reaming?
@@yonglingng5640 yes. Well spotted. Will edit.
are there systems for sram axles that use a sleeve system, to counteract that pesky metal-on-metal underrotation?
yes.
@@Mapdec dude.
@@oftankoftan yes. The one I showed in the vid. The SRAM factory BB.
@@Mapdec well slap my ass and call me charlie, I missed that bit.
I want you to do a how to check if BB needs replacement video.
I do have the bad combination of BB86 and DUB running with SRAM stock BB but after 1 year of use it feels fine.... but I don't know it's actually not fine.
i'll see what I can do.
@@Mapdec Thanks..! All the other videos I've watched are like... check if it's rough (too vague), or spin to see if it make sounds (ceramic ball def makes more sound I think, or if spin too much it's worn (or just a good BB fit or just need re-lubing).
you forgot to add the choice of BB creak when you have a cervelo, constant creak, occasional creak, creak on the drive side etc !!!!!
Not covering 30mm spindles?
Pretty much the same principle as Dub.
@@Mapdec except much more common bearings, no?
Why does a Shimano 24mm spindle not work as well with a T47 internal?
Because of the big step down you end up with adaptors and weight. It’s fine, but it’s not perfect. It’s a better compromise than the other way round.
Watch again from 2:46 he also mentions a solution to go for the bigger bearing size and use a plastic adaptor, is lighter and also protects the spindle a little bit from grinding of overrotation
Tks for the quick reply - noted. However, I recently saw a Praxis T47 internal on a 24mm Shimano spindle wo an adapter. Seems like they make them for smaller spindles.
I’m just a home mech working on my own bikes so curious - that’s all.
@@MokaBouchai know what you mean. those praxis bb’s come standard on trek bikes with t47 and shimano groupset. the bearings are either non industry standard bearings or the stepdown is basically on the outside, smaller hole for a smaller bearing with 24mm inner diameter.. i can’t remember right now, i had mine apart a while ago… the takeaway is that good bottom brackets should have industry standard bearing cause there’s lots of good options, prices and stock. so that you could replace bad bearings instead of having a completely proprietary bottom bracket with bad cycle only bearings
a complete bb shouldn’t be a throwaway product, especially if it’s so easy to service like a screw in t47
It's pronounced (very close to) "Campanyolo".
The sound of "gn" in Italian & French is like the sound of ñ in Spanish (e.g. mañana)
What about Hope bb's
Frustrating. They need proprietary tools that are poorly made. They use INA/FAG bearings that don't offer any particular advantage for the price they charge. They come in colours that match your other parts.
@Mapdec any recommendations for easton chainset with a 86 pressfit bb
@@markstone722 ouch. The best of a terrible situation is best served with a BBinfinate. However, weather sealing is poor. The Easton BB are better sealed, but any misalignment will kill bearings. I’d get a different crankset to be honest.
@Mapdec appreciated, I go through a bb every cyclocross reason. Maximum 15 races so the timescale is measured in hours.
TRY PRONOUNCING IT CORRECTLY WILL YA! Like this: Campan YOLO It's not CAMPAG NOOLLO........ FCS!!!!!
There needs to be a standard width and style of bottom bracket, the good old BSA standard is the best.
Disagree there. Bb386evo is the best.
I absolutely hate anyone using the term "standard" when talking about bottom brackets. There is no such thing. A "standard" should imply that it is used by everyone, not the everyone has their own standard.
The term is more to say what the standard is for a particular thing. For instance a BSA BB should meet the standard of being 1.37 inches at 24 threads per inch. A BB86 should meet the standard of being between 40.95mm and 41mm bore and 86.5mm wide.
@@Mapdec I find a lot of definitions of the word "standard" and that doesn't seem to fit any of them.
Here is the closest I found. "an object that is regarded as the usual or most common size or form of its kind:".
What you wrote is probably accurate in loose terms, maybe the use of the term should be dropped as it is very misleading. I can't think of any other industry where the word is used that way.
However, the bicycle industry seems to use a lot of terms that are not accurate. Another example is "cockpit". Bicycles do NOT have a cockpit, airplanes have them.
This oversized axle thing is to make it stiffer for the general public that are now too fat.
I felt that.
@@SonnyDarvishzadeh At least the fatties are out on the bike trying to do something about it.
Schade das es keine Übersetzung in Deutsch gibt 😢
you can use auto-translate.
Learn to spell "description"
👍
Hi Paul, I got a bit confused with your statement, as I am about to build a time ADH with Ultegra 12spd and FSA BB386evo. Should I be putting special attention on something, any possible issue? Hope you read this, thanks in advance. Cheers.
It’s fine. It’s just a chunky bearing or adaptor to step down. I don’t think FSA make a direct 24mm version.