RWW 107 Lie Nielsen and WoodRiver Hand Plane Shootout
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ต.ค. 2024
- RWW 107 Lie Nielsen and WoodRiver Hand Plane Shootout from The Renaissance Woodworker. Like this? Watch the latest episode of The Renaissance Woodworker on Blip! blip.tv/renaiss...
**Originally published Feb 2011**
So to balance the last episode I do an out of the box test of a new Lie Nielsen and finish with a side by side comparison of WoodRiver and Lie Nielsen hand planes
See all episodes of The Renaissance Woodworker blip.tv/renaiss...
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Good honest review, thank you. I use Lie Nielson planes and have found them to be far superior to any other planes on the market. The Wood River is an outstanding plane built by Quangsheng and marketed in the US as the Wood River brand. I will tell anyone, the Lie Nielson is worth the money and I'm a pro woodworker. Buy the Wood River if you aren't a pro and save you some money. There's nothing wrong with a Wood River plane and can give stellar results also.
Holy cow, this argument could rage on forever! Something came to mind as I was reading the comments. Years ago a fellow who was attempting to make me a machinist said, "Someone starting out could`t make parts on a $15,000 tool room lathe yet a good machinist can still make beautiful parts on a completely worn out lathe. Over the years I`ve seen beautiful work that was done with homemade tools as well as top of the line tools and bottom line is that I`ve never heard anyone ask as to the quality or cost of the tools used.
I have purchased old Stanleys (early 20th century) off of E By and restored them and they are wonderful tools when properly restored. On some of them I have adapted new, modern blades and on others the original blades were excellent after sharpening and cleaning up. I also have a few LN's and I love them as well. I would not put a lot of stock on peoples opinions who make money off of pushing a brand. Their opinions are bought and they will push their brand obviously. I have many of Rob Cosman's early dvd's and he originally was a LN guy and then switched. Don't know why. He is a great teacher and woodworker. One thing is for sure - if you are just starting out, you can buy an old Stanley and with a little research learn to restore it and learn to use it for not much money. Having a good tool is important but many, many people out there make wonderful wood work with incredibly basic tools that we would consider junk. We must each find our own path :) There is a lot of information and advice out there - find what makes sense to you and run with it ~
Agreed... so many TH-camrs in Woodworking sell out and do anything to pitch a brand.
Frank Fraticelli I own a lie nielsen #4 and many many stanley #4's I would pawn off the Lie Nielsen before Id give my a stanley. I find the stanleys are more smooth (once prepped unless super rusty when I get them) but once they are it takes mins to resharpen vs 20 mins with the newer steel that lie nielsen uses. The extra longevity of the sharp edge on the lielsen is not really an issue to be honest. If planning down a 8 ft table top I will have to sharpen both once before I am finished. 2 mins vs the extra 18 is time i can use to plane. And The newer steel if it hits a knot and nicks out a good chunk...well sweet fuck now 20 mins turns into 1.5 hours vs 20 mins. I love my old stanleys. I even bought new blades of A2 or O2 or something like that to try in a stanley. I have no clue where that blade is now but if its able to rust i am sure it can be used as iron filings in grade 8 science class. People will hop on lie nielsen site and see a price that is crazy beyond a normal price and think they are buying top quality and being an age of oh fuck the mortgage Im going to get mommy and daddy to pay my mortgage this month and buy a lie nielsen plane. Sadly most are just getting into woodworking and have no clue how to even know if a plane is any good or not. They are comparing it to a plane they bought at some used store that was rusted and nicked to hell from being tossed around a barn the last 20 yrs and no clue how to even sharpen a blade to start with. So they get this new plane that is resonable out of the box and then they say omg the best plane ever yet only comparing it to a rusted stanley they had no clue they could make work better than a lie nielsen. ITS A NEW AGE OF OH I WANT IT AND NOT HAVE TO WORK TO HAVE IT.
My first plane is a LN no7. Not only a great tool but also a work of art.
Thanks for the review, I watched it a year ago then just watched it again. I am sure we all have our favourites. All four of the brands (LN, Veritas, Stanley/Record and WR) have their attributes. I have used all four brands and once blades are lapped and prepared there is no difference on cut quality. What it really comes down to is how the plane feels in your hand as well as ease of use. The premium brands SHOULD feel better, but do they feel three times better? ($350 vs $119). The good thing about WR is the cost, but if cost is your main criteria, then I think restoring and updating a vintage Stanley Bedrock is more satisfying than promoting a plane which aids the Asian economy. I prefer to restore Stanley's first and I would think a lot of North Americans would too (I am Canadian by the way). I too like to support local economies and if I was in the U.S. I would be a strong LN advocate. I reach for my Veritas more than the others for two reasons, feel and Canadian pride.
I don’t think that Lie-Nielsen cares about selling their tools to the masses. They care about selling the highest quality tools regardless of price. I own a WoodRiver 5-1/2 but totally respect Lie-Nielsen and their customers. I hope they never reduce their superior quality in order to gain market share. Great time to be alive.
Reply to an old message but I agree. I bought a sharpening guide off them and it is very well made, better then anything else I've seen, but the price matched. You pay a lot for a Lie-Nielsen but you know you are getting a good tool, and a company that stands behind their product if you get a problem. That being said most people will not be willing to pay that cost, and that is understandable.
Being as selfless. Heck yea I would have been selfless too!!! In all seriousness, you produce great videos with those tools. Videos a whole lot of use want and look forward to see. Keep it up, man. One of my favorite subscriptions
Can't wait to see the rematch on some kind of curse-grained, tropical concrete wood after you've worked your best hone on both. Love a good experiment. Thanks.
to be honest as a maker i want to support other makers. the tools should be as beautiful as the work pieces.
hands down lie nielsen
Akanathan wt seriously fuck? Besides stupid comments wtf do you make? You seem to be a toll and I hope if you made/make children they are more beautiful than you. My planes and chisels are lapped to a mirror finish (thats an ocd thing) but I could make my furniture as beautiful with a rusted plane or chisel with scuffing off the rusted condition most were acquired in and just clean up the bevels and 1/4 inch of the backs. SO just stfu and stop with the BS.
@Rip Dingers i'm so mad its not even describable lol
Recent purchased a WoodRiver 51/2 jack plane. The sole was out of square to the shoulder by .38 mm across the 72mm sole. I was advised this is within tolerance (upto .45 mm). My view is that the sole of a premium plane should be square to a tolerance beyond 1 thou (.04mm) in 70mm - ie less than can be measured using an engineers square and 1 thou feeler gauge
For $200, I'll be happy to sharpen the blade, tighten the backlash on the depth adjustment, and add a few lead tire weights.
Also, both planes will last for many decades. Abuse kills planes, not normal use. The LN is a great tool, but one that's not really worth it for the average hobby woodworker. Paul Sellers advocates buying old Stanley planes. That's what he used when he was a professional woodworker.
Just to point something new out. The Woodriver planes are now around 100$ less is all. Running at $269 vs $375, and WoodCraft won't have any in stock for 24-28 weeks. At least for the #5 1/2 plane. Lie Nielsen has many styles in stock. Good crafting to you all!
Definitely an apple and oranges comparison. As pointed out a #4 and #3, bronze vs steel, and no mention was made about any details of the blades... O1, A2, thickness. It's nice that the LN came out of the box sort of ready to go but it's nuts to not first flatten and hone, check the plane sole, remove the lacquer, wax, etc.
Of course the LN is a superior plane and the whys and wherefores were mentioned. I own three LN planes and I love them. I would go LN all the way but I can't afford them for the time being. I have just bought a small number of the Woodriver planes, latest and greatest V3 production run, and they are quite decent. I also have a small number of Veritas planes... 3 of each vendor, all different types, all purchased on sale at the time of each purchase. For handplanes, if I could do afford I'd buy all LN though the latest Veritas top of the line planes are impressive. Woodriver gets incrementally better because Woodcraft is pushing their plane maker incrementally with specific requests and requirement for corrections. It is definitely a great buy and the planes will hold up. I still enjoyed the comparison presentation and took away from it an affirmation of what my own experience has shown me. Though the comparison was apples and oranges, I like apples and oranges, just stay away from the lemons. :-)
Shannon, you could use a bench hook attached to the bench vice instead of that "pesky" bench dog that you struggle with for no good reason so you don't have to shift the work piece every time. As for the planes, I have no doubt in my mind that "you always get what you pay for" (in most cases, it's true), There is nothing wrong with the Woodriver plane but if you can afford the Lie Nielsen, by all means, BUY IT.
Thanks for the video.
boy this is a tricky bridge for each woodworker to cross! I have a variety including some new veritas planes, my granddads old 4 stanley that i restored from rusted boat anchor and a couple wooden planes i built one krenov pin style and another ramp-wedge style. I have to say they are all comparable as long as theyre sharp! The costs were of course not in any way comparable. so many ways to go on this..my set in the end looks like this...bevel up 4/ shoulder/block are new veritas..uncompromising build and perfect adjustment. jack, router and fore planes are wood...touchier bade adjustment but they work perfectly ( i was surprised how well), were easy to build and they glide better than metal planes and that makes the heavier work easier. I still use my gramp's plane as a final or tricky grain smoother. I encourage anyone starting to keep their mind open to alternatives to filling the tool chest with brand new higher end planes. for work without need for constant fine adjustment wood is great. The better old stanleys can be restored to very great quality. The veritas/lie nielsons are nearly perfect...... but so is a new car!
I watched this a couple of years ago and thought then that you had a bias toward LN products. I just now watched it again and feel the same. Maybe I watched it this time because I just bought a WR 4 1/2 and 5 1/2 over the last week. Together they cost about what the LN No. 4 cost. Don't get me wrong, I would have bought LN products if I could afford them, but I can't. Less than an hour to tune the WR seems reasonable to me.
I'm 67 and have been a woodworker ever since I could hold a saw. I have tried LOTS of planes trough the years and I have to say that LN and Veritas are my favorites. I like them both for precision and weight. They both come ready to run out of the box. The LN bronze planes are especially precise and (as far as I can tell) never warp. The Veritas planes are a little more inventive but I just love the feel of the bronze on the LN. It's a hard choice between them.
As for Wood River, they make a very decent plane. I don't buy Chinese made goods, so I will probably never buy a Wood River. But I have to admit that the slave labor is getting better ;-)
Paul, if you don't buy WR because they're made in China, you're a complete Idiot!
You buy anything else, ALL (most) made in China, so the plane is going to make a difference?
ronin4711 No ad hominem attacks please. I prefer to support American workers. The WR may be a decent plane, but it doesn't compare with the LN. No setup needed at all on the LN and it just plain (no pun implied here) feels better than any other planes, especially the bronze planes. Chinese workers are treated badly. Until the Chinese support workers' rights, I will steer clear of their stuff. The only foreign made products I like come from Canada (Veritas).
Paul Norman Forgot to mention the German and Swiss products. Proxxon makes the best miniature power tools (German) and I love my Swiss carving chisels.
No ad hominem, my foot!
If I'm Jewish, I shouldn't buy German products, it's the same like not buying Chinese! Or all African blacks shouldn't buy American products because of the enslaving!
Where do you think your Cell phone was made or car parts, clothing etc. Yeah? think again!
Like I said before, You're an Idiot!
ronin4711 Calling someone an idiot is an ad hominem attack. Let's stick to civilized language. I'm also Jewish - hence the argument :-). Anyway, I'm well aware that sometimes there is no choice. My point is that I prefer, when I get the chance, of not buying Chinese goods until they have improved their human rights record.
Please do one more video since Rob Cosman has influenced a lot of changes on the WR the last years as they are on Version 3 of development now.
I never understood the idea that “hey I didn’t have to sharpen the blade out of the box”. Well you’re gonna have to sharpen it eventually! And you’re gonna be sharpening it a lot. So what difference does it make. If you use them equally, you would have sharpened the LN one fewer time.
Nice and objective. The one thing that is somewhat perplexing to me is people constantly complaining about bench planes not being razor sharp out of the box. You're going to have to sharpen any new plane at some point, right.
So glad to be landing on this review again. :) Also, just as amused that Shannon was able to purchase a Lie Nielson smoother from Affiliate link commission. I love Capitalism. (no shade Shade Shannon, just appreciation)
Buy once cry once. The LN are such a treat to use and own. Once I bought my first LN I never looked back. LN all the way. Replace a blade on the WR with LN quality blade. The “great deal” goes away real quick.
If the prices you gave were correct the price difference was $231, not $150.
Even Rob Cosman upgrades the blade in his WR planes , so add that to the price
The Lie Nielsen is great no doubt. But If I have students or people working for me in the shop I'm going to hand them a Wood River. Sharpened and well setup for sure but no way am I laying out Lie Nielsen prices to hand out.
Ive done completely fine with the WR hand planes. Paul Sellers uses some Stanley planes, Rob Cosman uses WR. Both produce some fantastic work. However, for more budget friendly professional performance, go with the WR. If you have the money go with the LN.
Thanks for the review. I would love comments/shoot-out for the Lie Nielsen scrub plane and the new Pinnacle scrub sold at Woodcraft. (also, the Pinnacle looks to be about $5 more expensive). Thanks.
I wonder [yes it's off topic] is there any kind of 'hand planing Olympics' or other 'speed planing contest' ? I want to know how fast you can joint & flatten rough stock. Thanks.
The Elk Head screwdrivers are undoubtedly beautiful, but at $100 per blade I'll stick with Ace Hardware....
Thank's for the shootout ! Bench seems a bit low for you ?
I know this video is old now, but as of today the Lie Nielson planes are cheaper than Woodriver, so why bother with Woodriver? The #4 Iron LN is $300 and the WR is $312. For the #62 Low Angle Jack Planes the LN is $245 and the WR is $375!
I own the WR 5 1/2 and am extremely happy with it. The difference that a ready-to-use LN blade makes is insignificant, given that routine honing over time is necessary with any plane. As to China vs American made, either one you buy still supports American businesses and their employees. Woodcraft is an American business with franchises all over the country, and when I buy their products I am supporting their employees and franchise owners. As a home woodworker the price difference between LN and WR means that I can buy two WR planes for the same price of one LN and still achieve superb results. I have seen the results that Rob Cosman can get out a WR plane, and I was able to get 1 thou shavings the first day.
Can always know by the way ones shop looks that I’m seeing advertisements.
Backlash is really annoying on the depth control. It shouldn’t be that difficult to keep it minimal. You need a long lever for ease of lateral adjustment. The wood rivers (Qiangsheng) are heavier than I like but the handles are really comfortable. Stanley’s are the right weight for me. My favourite is a cheap old wooden plane with no cap iron, no adjusters, very open throat! The iron takes the sharpest edge. It takes the best shavings. It cost me $25!
360p we meet again.
I’d go WR and put the savings in sharpening gear. Running a blade right out of the box is pointless. At the end of the day it will still need to be honed
It's called backlash. I know you forgot the term, and that's okay, I forget things also, this term as well.
Why you removing " Mill-marks" if you ran the Walnut through the " power Planner"? I'm assuming that's a thickness Planner??
All tools leave mill marks. Some are worse than others and some tools can leave different marks based on feed rate, sharpness of the the blades, etc. Even hand tools leave mill marks. Its up to you whether they are going to effect the final look of your finished piece and whether or not they need to be cleaned up. In general if I use my power planer it is as a rough tool, but even if I reduce the depth of cut and slow down the feed rate there will be distinct lines from the planer that are accentuated when finish is applied. So even a "perfectly" milled board will get a smoothing plane treatment for the best looking surface.
how do you feel about the rockler version benchdogs planes, does it compare to woodriver?
Dave Satosky I only learned of their existence yesterday when I got a Rockler catalog. I know nothing about them.
At the end of the day only the edge of the iron against the wood dictates the quality of the cut. Any old plane with a flat sole with this iron would give the same shavings and the same finish.
Hey Shannon, I love all your videos. I am planning on purchasing some WoodRiver planes and I wanted to use your affiliate link. I wasn't able to find it on your website. Do you still have one and if so can you let me know what it is?
No I don't anymore. They changed some things on the back end and frankly the commission percentage just isn't worth my time. Shop away and thanks for asking.
Shannon Rogers Thanks for the response.
If you are doing a test DO IT! What you THINK should not matter DO THE EXPERIMENT AND SHOW THE DATA
So, for someone like myself who has never touched a plane but wants to learn and get into woodworking, would you recommend the WoodRiver or would I be better off getting an old Stanley for about the same price or less? I'd certainly jump all over a LN plane, but starting out I'm not sure that would be the best move. Besides the fact I really can't afford one...lol
I think the WoodRiver planes are just fine and will serve you well for a long time. That being said, if you don't mind some elbow grease to restore a vintage plane you can save some money and learn a lot about how the plane works by fettling it and tuning if for work.
I see this was six years ago. Did you get into woodworking and what has been your experience with planes. I usually restore pre-war planes but I recently bought a WR 5-1/2 . My planes are definitiely a mix of wood bodied, older Bailey and new.
I think your comparison was flawed. Comparing a bronze plane to a steel plane. Comparing a #3 to a #4. Stressing over and over about how one performs out-of-the-box is completely unrepresentative of how the plane will perform over its life. Comparing the "machining" of the LN plane w/o ever taking it apart translates to me that you looked at the brand name and drew your conclusions from that. I'm happy that many of you can AFFORD LN, Veritas, and WR, but many of us do not have all those options. You failed to compare what WR has done in putting a bearing on the Lateral Adjuster as well as what they have done in the frog area. I expected this video to lean towards LN, (unfairly) and I think this video did that. I don't buy a plane for grandkids!
I agree that there is an implicit bias running wild in this comparison. Comparing a no.3 to a no.4 and mentioning the extra mass as an advantage is quite frankly unfair to the no.3 which is smaller by design.
It would be nice to be able to afford these high end tools and some of them are definitely worth the investment, especially to a professional tradesperson but spending an extra £200 to use a plane 'out of the box' is decadent at best.
And why did he not measure simple things like flatness and squareness? A disassemble may reveal quality differences like the way bearings are used or not, the play in parts and not in the least how the frog is seated and how easy it can be adjusted. Can the frog be set for scrubbing, can it be set for smoothing?
I agree with your comments,an unfair competition at the least.what is wrong is the comparison,it should be like for like and not done this way at all.I cannot justify paying a huge price for a bragging right,if the tool does the job as it was designed to do, great,I have planes that cost a few pounds second hand and once cleaned up have worked really well.
so true,nearly all my planes are stanley,i love them, they do their job and i didnt have to sell my soul to pay for them either,some of these guys on here seem to like to brag that they have said tools
Malcolm Oxley: My experience with Stanley differs. I bought all my used Stanley planes on eBay, only to discover I got all the junk-type. Not ONCE did I get the kind with the frog adjusters (Bedrock?), and not once did I get one where the sides are at right angles to the bottom. I gave up on getting stuck with all the newer (junk) Stanleys and bought Wind River. If I had more funds, I'd get Veritas every time -- I really like their stuff.
Nemáš pravdu. Žádný hoblík není z výroby absolutně nastavený a připravený. Každý hoblík musíš srovnat. 🤷
Need a LN affiliate link.
MY Stanley planes with HOCK blades cut just fine IMO and way cheaper than both
LN doesn't have an affiliate program. But if you want bit from Highland Woodworking via my affiliate link on my site.
Just out of curiosity, what camera do you use?
Nicholas Royer Canon Vixia HFS100, soon to be upgraded cause it has been dropped one too many times on the shop floor.
So, you took commission proceeds from an affiliate (Woodcraft) that sells Wood River planes to buy a Lie Nielsen plane...NICE!
Yep I took both of those affiliate dollars and put it toward that plane
A couple of commercials. I can afford the Lie Nielsen but I stick with the Stanleys. They work great and, as for durability, I have one that is 97 years old and works perfectly.
Obviously u just buy the wood river an sharpen the blade neilson dont seem worth the money
No Sir, not even close, I have to be honest with you and the wood working community.
I am not saying that Wood river dosen't produce good quality tools, however, they cannot be compared with the same product that Lie Nielsen manufactures.
I have owned several different tools from different companies along my endeavors of acquiring woodworking tools, and I have to say that Lie Nielsen makes a far better product than any other company in the industry. Yes, you could spend A LOT more money purchasing a product from other company that I am not going to mention, but in my humble opinion and I have to add that I am a novice, I would not be persuaded to buy any other product.
Think about it, you are half way there. Get the tools that work!
Problem free, no worries, no issues.
well get a wood river before they are gone, woodcraft has them on Closeout.
Andrew Arndts, well it’s six years later and WR is still going strong. Maybe it was the pre-series V3 planes that were on closeout. The new series V3 WoodRiver planes were redesigned with input from Rob Cosman and they are great.
Seems people are not paying attention to the type of steel used in W.R. blades. Even $100 Stanley Sweetheart No 4 uses an excellent A2 blade. The steel in W.R. should be a deal breaker for those that know. Tsk,tsk, suckers!
Neither, I don't recommend spending more than $25 on a scrub plane. Check out my video "From Boat Anchor to Fore Plane" where I restore a beat up Jack plane into a Fore plane. These planes do NOT need precision to do their job.
sellfless my arse. bloke ent got a clue.forget the tools hes got one fundamental thing wrong.his bench height.hes going to be crippled when hes older.o one point mass has nothing to do with it,any craftsman knows its sensitivity that you need not momentum.
Lots of yapping, little substance!
I really really love being selfless myself. Show your dedication, spend half your paycheck on more tools. Sometimes I do.
Come on man the LN is 3 x the price of the WR.I have WoodRiver planes and They plane ,The #1,#4and #5 1/2 ,down to 1.5 thou .they are well made ,square and heavy .easily comparable to the much more expensive LN or LV and I have those as well..Super thin shavings are no good to a real woodworker .You will take too long to do your work.
Super thin shavings are certainly important. They produce a finish-ready surface that is superior to a sanded surface.
well obviously LN is better plane, you get what you pay for, nothing new here
Blah blah blah - so why didn't you sharpen the lie nielsen and then compare apples to apples instead of well,... this is how they compared when one had been sharpened and the other hadn't - and the real test would be take that board to someone who hadn't planed it and see if they could tell a difference between the two sides - that would tell us if there was a difference to what the two planes could do - your review tells me that the lie nielsen is a better experience to use which I don't doubt but as far as capability your review did not cut it (get it, cut it - ok I should stick to woodworking,...)
Buy American woodriver=China
I'd MUCH rather save up and support an American company that makes a superior product over buying the knockoff outsourceed to a country that puts lead in kid's toys. Better tool, higher quality, better company, American manufacturing, excellent customer service and innovation... Lie-Nielsen innovates, designs and tests and WoodRiver shamelessly copies them.
what?
+Dan Heatonne can't delete sorry bout that
Bad Practice.... Please lay your s/planes on their sides or pitched on a block not on their blade/plates when not in use..this will prevent any blade damage from anything that's maybe on a busy bench.......from someone who's been in the trade over 50yrs....
If you had read my imput fully then you might have noticed that I mentioned placing the s/plane down 'Pitched on a block' {or} on its side' to prevent blade damage...common sense rates highly in my world...and where does efficienacy come into it...if micro seconds is important to you{the difference between lay'in on its side or upright on a small block}....then you must live in a very stressful world....yes 50yrs dos'nt make anyone right but common sense saves a whole lot'a sharpening
So you saved yourself from setting the blade on something that might damage it, but while it is on its side, doesnt it open up to damage from bumping it with something? And damge to yourself if you bump it with your hands? Also, another question, the iron blade is much much harder than my bench top. Can you explain to me how my benchtop is going to dull the blade?
go away gramps, that's total bs.
68 yrs and I after 3 yrs in will always set my plane flat on the bench. As i do not like sharpening them over and over out of stupidity.
Now for someone like yourself if you are so stupid to lay it on something that will nick the blade well thats your stupid mistake. I will clean up my bench after I finish a step in a project and set up for the next step. If you are the type to leave tools laying around from the last 3 or 4 projects/steps then thats on you for not having common sense, not everyone elses.
So I guess common sense is based on each individual. I have never had wood nick a blade outside of a extra hard knot. So laying my plane blade down is always the safest bet. I have nicked by laying my square down and then knocking it into the blade of the plane because it was on its side. So yeah do what you do and don't dis someone because they do what they do because its what works for them on a non cluttered bench.
total rubbish! plane flat on the bench does no harm to blade or bench.