Had Heber and Brigham just received a revelation about polygamy, while on their missions, before Joseph ever allegedly introduced it, that would be one thing. But when you have Brigham later saying that when Joseph presented it to him he was so against it that he desired the grave you know they are lying.
I agree with Catherine Lewis. If Joseph Smith hadn't introduced the damnable heresy of polygamy in Mormonism, he wouldn't have been killed in Carthage Jail. "We are earnestly seeking to explode the vicious principles of Joseph Smith, and those who practice the same abominations and whoredoms; which we verily know are not accordant and consonant with the principles of Jesus Christ and the Apostles; and for that purpose, and with that end in view, with an eye single to the glory of God, we have dared to gird on the armor, and with God at our head, we most solemnly and sincerely declare that the sword of truth shall not depart from the thigh, nor the buckler from the arm, until we can enjoy those glorious privileges which nature's God and our country's laws have guarantied to us-freedom of speech, the liberty of the press, and the right to worship God as seemeth us good." "It is a notorious fact, that many females in foreign climes, and in countries to us unknown, even in the most distant regions of the Eastern hemisphere, have been induced, by the sound of the gospel, to forsake friends, and embark upon a voyage across waters that lie stretched over the greater portion of the globe, as they supposed, to glorify God, that they might thereby stand acquitted in the great day of God Almighty. But what is taught them on their arrival at this place?- They are visited by some of the Strikers, for we know not what else to call them, and are requested to hold on and be faithful, for there are great blessings awaiting the righteous; and that God has great mysteries in store for those who love the lord, and cling to brother Joseph. They are also notified that Brother Joseph will see them soon, and reveal the mysteries of Heaven to their full understanding, which seldom fails to inspire them with new confidence in the Prophet, as well as a great anxiety to know what God has laid up in store for them, in return for the great sacrifice of father of mother, of gold and silver, which they gladly left far behind, that they might be gathered into the fold, and numbered among the chosen of God.--They are visited again, and what is the result? They are requested to meet brother Joseph, or some of the Twelve, at some insulated point, or at some particularly described place on the bank of the Mississippi, or at some room, which wears upon its front--Positively NO Admittance. The harmless, inoffensive, and unsuspecting creatures, are so devoted to the Prophet, and the cause of Jesus Christ, that they do not dream of the deep laid and fatal scheme which prostrates happiness, and renders death itself desirable; but they meet him, expecting to receive through him a blessing, and learn the will of the Lord concerning them, and what awaits the faithful follower of Joseph, the Apostle and Prophet of God, When in the stead thereof, they are told, after having been sworn in one of the most solemn manners, to never divulge what is revealed to them, with a penalty of death attached that God Almighty has revealed it to him, that she should be his (Joseph's) Spiritual wife; for it was right anciently, and God will tolerate it again: but we must keep those pleasures and blessings from the world, for until there is a change in the government, we will endanger ourselves by practicing it-but we can enjoy the blessings of Jacob, David, and others, as well as to be deprived of them, if we do not expose ourselves to the law of the land. She is thunder-struck, faints recovers, and refuses. The Prophet damns her if she rejects. She thinks of the great sacrifice and of the many thousand miles she has traveled over sea and land, that she might save her soul from pending ruin, and replies, God's will be done and not mine. The Prophet and his devotees in this way are gratified." ---Nauvoo Expositor, June 7, 1844.
@@randyjordan5521 The reality is the Prophet Joseph Smith did not introduce the doctrine of Polygamy, he never taught it, he never lived it. He only excommunicated those who lived it and taught it. That is why he was murdered. Joseph taught D&C 42:22-26 and D&C 49: 15-17 and former section 101 of 1835 (Three Witnesses to this Truth). According to Emma, the Prophet's wife, Joseph never received D&C 132 revelation. So who wrote D&C 132? It was under Brigham Young's administration and contrary to God's eternal pattern.
@@kencard777 These Joseph Smith polygamy deniers whom I've conversed with cite Joseph's and Hyrum's repeated denials of the practice as evidence that they were innocent. I've attempted to inform them that it was standard operating procedure for Smith and his polygamy initiates to deny it. Here are a few quotes I've compiled which document their deceitfulness: "Lying for the Lord" began under Joseph Smith's leadership: "Fabricated stories designed to protect the [Nauvoo polygamous] individuals are seen elsewhere. Sidney Rigdon in the 18 June 1845 'Messenger and Advocate' reported that Parley P. Pratt, in speaking of the means by which church leaders should sustain Smith, advised that 'we must lie to protect brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.' Not only were church leaders willing to violate the law to promote polygamy, they did not hesitate to blacken the character of individuals who threatened to expose the secret practice of plural marriage. Sarah Pratt was not the only woman to suffer from this policy. The 27 August 1842 'Wasp,' for example, branded Martha H. Brotherton a 'mean harlot,' and Nancy Rigdon suffered the same treatment after she opposed Smith's polygamous proposals.....Jane Law, wife of Smith's counselor William Law, was also blacklisted for rejecting Smith's polyandrous proposal." ("Mormon Polygamy: A History," Richard van Wagoner, pp. 38-39.) The satirical poem "Buckeye's Lamentation," published on February 7, 1844, detailed how Smith and his fellow polygamists denied their secret practice: "This is the secret doctrine taught By Joe and the red rams- Although in public they deny- But then ”tis all a sham. They fear the indignation just, Of those who have come here, With hands thats clean and honest hearts, To serve the Lord in fear. "Thus, all the twelve do slyly teach, And slyly practice, too; And even the sage Patriarch, Wont have untied his shoe: For sure, ”twould be quite impolite, If not a great disgrace, To have a widow sister fair Spit in a Prophet”s face! "But Joe at snaring beats them all, And at the rest does laugh; For widows poor, and orphan girls, He can ensnare with chaff, He sets his snares around for all,- And very seldom fails To catch some thoughtless Partridges, Snow-birds or Knight-ingales!" The Nauvoo Expositor, published on June 7, 1844, referred to Smith's culture of deceit: "Many of us have sought a reformation in the church, without a public exposition of the enormities of crimes practiced by its leaders, thinking that if they would hearken to counsel, and shew fruit meet for repentance, it would be as acceptable with God, as though they were exposed to public gaze, but our petitions were treated with contempt; and in many cases the petitioner spurned from their presence and particularly by Joseph, who would state that if he had sinned, and was guilty of the charges we would charge him with, he would not make acknowledgment, but would rather be damned; for it would detract from his dignity, and would consequently ruin and prove the overthrow of the Church." The Expositor also detailed Joseph Smith's modus operandi in introducing young female converts from Europe to spiritual wifery, and how he swore them to secrecy: "They are requested to meet brother Joseph, or some of the Twelve, at some insulated point, or at some particularly described place on the bank of the Mississippi, or at some room, which wears upon its front--Positively NO Admittance. The harmless, inoffensive, and unsuspecting creatures, are so devoted to the Prophet, and the cause of Jesus Christ, that they do not dream of the deep laid and fatal scheme which prostrates happiness, and renders death itself desirable; but they meet him, expecting to receive through him a blessing, and learn the will of the Lord concerning them, and what awaits the faithful follower of Joseph, the Apostle and Prophet of God, When in the stead thereof, they are told, after having been sworn in one of the most solemn manners, to never divulge what is revealed to them, with a penalty of death attached that God Almighty has revealed it to him, that she should be his (Joseph's) Spiritual wife; for it was right anciently, and God will tolerate it again: but we must keep those pleasures and blessings form the world, for until there is a change in the government, we will endanger ourselves by practicing it-but we can enjoy the blessings of Jacob, David, and others, as well as to be deprived of them, if we do not expose ourselves to the law of the land. She is thunder-struck, faints recovers, and refuses. The Prophet damns her if she rejects. She thinks of the great sacrifice and of the many thousand miles she has traveled over sea and land, that she might save her soul from pending ruin, and replies, God's will be done and not mine. The Prophet and his devotees in this way are gratified. The next step to avoid public exposition from the common course of things, they are sent away for a time, until all is well; after which they return, as from a long visit." Shortly before Joseph Smith's death, his former aide Joseph H. Jackson published an account of his 20 months working closely with Smith. He also related how Smith introduced women into polygamy, and if any of them objected, he would set his minions out to destroy their reputations: "As I have mentioned the subject of spiritual wives, I will in this place, give the reader some idea of the system. The doctrine is called the "spirit of Elijah," and is kept a profound secret from the people at large, and is only permitted to be known to those, to whom it is given to know the "fullness of the kingdom," in other words, the choice spirits who surround Joe, and aid in carrying his secret measures...Joe had in his employ certain old women, called "Mothers in Israel," such as Mrs. Tailor, old Madam Durfee, and old Madam Sessions, in whom the people have great confidence, but in fact, they are the most depraved hypocrits on Earth. If Joe wishes to make a spiritual wife of a certain young lady, he would send one of these women to her. The old women, would tell the young lady, that she had had a vision, in which it was revealed to her that she was to be sealed up to Joe, (or his friend as the case might be) as a spiritual wife, to be his in time and eternity. This would astonish the young innocent, but scripture would soon be resorted to, to prove the correctness of the doctrine, and that it was proper in the sight of the Lord. Soon after this Joe would appear, and tell the lady that the Lord had revealed to him that Mrs. so & so, had had a vision concerning her, and had been to see her. Not suspecting any collusion the young lady would be astonished, and being strong in the faith, she could have no doubt but that Joe spoke by authority of God, He would then ply his arguments, and with the utmost sanctity speak "in the name of the Lord" and say that at such a time, and at such a place it had been revealed to him that she should be his or his friend's, in time and eternity. If she objected he would quote his scripture and his revelations, and thus by playing on her superstitious credulity, and artfully at the same time inflaming her passions he seldom failed of his object. Being once successful, he held the fear of exposure over her as a rod to prevent rebellion from his allegiance. When, as happened in the cases of Miss Martha Brotherton and Miss Nancy Rigdon, his overtures were rejected with disdain and exposure threatened he would set a hundred hell hounds on them, to destroy their reputations. This was a specimen of the mode and manner of Joe in carrying his vile measures of seduction." On March 29, 1844, Joseph's former counselor in the church presidency, William Law, noted in his journal how Smith attacked the character and reputations of those who opposed him: "March 29. Since my last conversation with Joseph Smith which was on the 8th Jan’y I have had not association with him, as I do not with to associate with evil doers; he has in the meantime been using all his influence to destroy me, he has employed every vile and corrupt man and woman in the city over whom he has any power to circulate veil reports as false as the author of lies, about me and my wife, but he has failed to accomplish his object, for our names yet stand fair and untarnished in the estimation of the virtuous and the good; we find the better part of the community to be our friends; they feel disgusted with Smith’s course for it has been most disgusting loathsome to the virtuous mind, lust, falsehood, injustice, and cruelty have characterized his course towards me & mine in such an unparalleled degree that the unprejudiced could not but see it, and abhor the man and his base acts." In an 1887 interview, Law related how Smith kept his secret practices from the knowledge of his unsuspecting disciples: “In what manner would Joseph succeed to keep you and others from knowing what was going on behind the curtain?” “Marks, Yves, I and some others had, for a long time, no idea of the depravity that was going on. This was simply the result of a very smart system adopted by the prophet and his intimate friends like Brigham Young, Kimball and others. They first tried a man to see whether they could make a criminal tool out of him. When they felt that he would not be the stuff to make a criminal of, they kept him outside the inner circle and used him to show him up as an example of their religion, as a good, virtuous, universally respected brother.”
@@kencard777 "The reality is the Prophet Joseph Smith did not introduce the doctrine of Polygamy, he never taught it, he never lived it." There are numerous contemporarily-published documents which make it perfectly clear that Joseph Smith originated polygamy in Mormonism. All of these citations from William Clayton's and Heber C. Kimball's journals and letters have zero relevance to the evidence which shows that Smith started it. I suggest you read these three documents: The Nauvoo Expositor Buckeye's Lamentation For Want Of More Wives A Narrative of the Adventures and Experience of Joseph H. Jackson in Nauvoo All three documents are on the internet.
It's not realistic to think you know the reality of what happened, based on opinions expressed by the Expositor and other sworn enemies of Joseph Smith. Quoting poems, and various opinions of critics is not convincing. Do some actual research and try referring to credible evidence. Just advancing the baseless narrative is not helpful.@@randyjordan5521
Michelle and Jeremy, these episodes are brilliant. They shed light on some of the darkest fruits of polygamy. This really strengthens the theological case that plural marriage is not of God.
Wow! Thank you Michelle and Jeremy for all of your hard work! I believe that seeking the truth is so very important! I just can’t stop thinking about this scripture when I think about Polygamy and other Doctrines of men that have come into the LDS church. Ether 8:24 24 Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you; or wo be unto it, because of the blood of them who have been slain; for they cry from the dust for vengeance upon it, and also upon those who built it up.
Jeremy deserves some kind of award for this episode! Amazing research, preparation and presentation! I'm definitely going to have to let my first view settle and rewatch it later.
Nothing in this three hour presentation negates the evidence from numerous other sources which clearly shows that Joseph Smith originated polygamy in Mormonism.
This interview was fire! The more I learn about it, the more I am convinced that we as a church have not repented and need to repent by denouncing eternal polygamy. I feel like our future is bleak, if we do not. Yes, of course there are many descendents from these polygamous marriages, including my family, but shall we constantly be cautious about other people's feelings and put away our repentance because we don't want others to get offended? Quite contrary, I believe we should elevate those who feel hurt by denouncing polygamy and bringing ourselves and them to God instead of walking on eggshells.
Maybe if the church accepts the truth, then the leadership baton can pass from the 'gentiles' like Brigham Young to the children of Lehi (descendents of Joseph).
I shouldn't have stayed up until 1 am to finish the episode but I couldn't stop it! That was just a masterful presentation of information! I don't know how you and Jeremy have the time to do this but it is just incredible. Thank you!
Interesting...the last story confirms my thoughts on temple, can't be of God, and Even if Joseph was correct in all he taught, Brigham and others took it in the wrong direction. The church isn't what it claims to be, period.
Joseph Smith instituted the temple endowment ceremony just a few weeks after he went through the Masonic rites and became a Master Mason in 1842. "Portions of the temple ritual resembled Masonic rites that Joseph had observed when a Nauvoo lodge was organized in March 1842 and that he may have heard about from Hyrum, a Mason from New York days. The Nauvoo endowment was first bestowed just six weeks after Joseph's induction. The similarities were marked enough for Heber Kimball to quote Joseph saying that Freemasonry "was taken from the priesthood but has become degen[e]rated. but many things are perfect." - Richard Lyman Bushman, Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling The fact that Smith instituted the endowment ceremony is 1842 is also supported by the similarity of its oaths to the initiation oath into the Danite paramilitary band in Missouri in 1838: "In the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, I now promise and swear, truly, faithfully, and without reserve, that I will serve the Lord with a perfect heart and a willing mind, dedicating myself, wholly, and unreservedly, in my person and effects, to the upbuilding of His kingdom on earth, according to His revealed will. I furthermore promise and swear that I will regard THE FIRST PRESIDENT OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS, as the SUPREME HEAD OF THE CHURCH on earth, and OBEY HIM the same as the Supreme God, IN ALL WRITTEN REVELATIONS given under the solemnities of a 'Thus saith the Lord,' and that I WILL ALWAYS UPHOLD THE PRESIDENCY, RIGHT OR WRONG. I furthermore promise and swear that I will never touch a daughter of Adam, unless she is given me of the Lord. I furthermore swear that no Gentile shall ever be admitted to the secrets of this HOLY INSTITUTION or participate in its blessings. I furthermore promise and swear that I will assist the Daughter of Zion [Sons of Dan] in the utter destruction of apostates, and that I will assist in setting up the kingdom of Daniel in these last days, by the power of the Highest and the sword of His might. I furthermore promise and swear that I will never communicate the secrets of this degree to any person in the known world, except it be to a true and lawful brother, binding myself UNDER NO LESS PENALTY THAN TO HAVE MY BLOOD SHED. So help me God and keep me faithful."
I must of been doing it all wrong... When I served my mission, I didn't date a bunch of girls and get oranges. I just preached the gospel of Jesus Christ. 😅
What? You mean you didn’t receive any foot washings on your mission? On my mission, as a sister missionary, I took “s” with all my male investigators, washed their feet at 2 AM, and gave them raisins. After I returned home, I wrote to each of them to tell them that President Hinkley said it was okay for me to marry all of them as I was their savior and they needed me to save them. So, I blessed their lives by marrying all of them within a few days of each other. It was really hard on me, but I had to consummate each marriage several times (for their sake) because I was just being obedient to the prophet and trying to raise up seed and save them. I know each one of my husbands felt special because I am devoted to each one of them. I feel so grateful that I get to bless their lives as they obey me. I can’t wait for all of us to be reunited with Pres. Hinkley some day in the heavens to thank him for this wonderful, saving doctrine, for there is no other way that a man can be saved other than to be married to me.
This was a great episode, thanks for putting it together! I am a direct descendant of Margaret moon and William Clayton. This illustrates how completely women were trapped into polygamy. Margaret could not speak out against what William talked her into doing because of the control and influence he had over her and her family. I wish she had been able to escape and tell everyone as she threatened to. The “covenant” william talked her into was not from Joseph Smiths teachings, if it was there would have been nothing to tell everyone. William Clayton was clearly among the men Joseph Smith talked about on May 26th 1844 who were betraying him. He believed what he was taught by Brigham young and Heber c kimball on his mission. It is sad to see how quickly things went wrong because of their false teachings, and Clayton’s support of them
Thank you for this comment Kim! Amazing that you are descended from Margaret! I wish we had done a better job of pointing out explicitly that a big part of what gave him so much power over her, to make her stay, was the fact that she was pregnant. To me that makes the story even more tragic.
It's fascinating to hear from a descendant of Clayton and Margaret, but your view that Clayton's relationship with her was not from Joseph Smith's teachings is contradicted by the facts. To illustrate, I'm sure you're familiar with Clayton's journal entries in which he recorded how Joseph introduced him to plural marriage, and that he performed the sealing between him and his wife's sister. Michelle Stone, of course, believes that Clayton made up that whole story and wrote it in fine detail in his personal journal. Michelle also believes that Clayton was a closet liar, thief, adulterer, and "he had an agenda to frame Joseph" (Michelle's words.) However, an independent, contemporary source corroborates Clayton's journal entries: Joseph H. Jackson was a close aide to Joseph Smith for the last 20 months of his life, dealing with him and his other top aides on a daily basis. Shortly before Smith's death, Jackson left Nauvoo and published an expose' of his dealings with Smith, including this statement: "This William Clayton is one of Joe's private clerks and a ready cat's paw for all manner of base work. He has lived with his wife and wife's sister in common for the last year, and has children by both of them. This is the man who Joe had set to work to lead his niece into the paths of iniquity, aiding him by feigned revelations." So, Jackson personally knew that Clayton was very loyal and obedient to Smith, even aiding him in procuring women to induce into polygamy. Of course, there is much more contemporary documentation which proves that Smith originated polygamy, but this one deals specifically with your ancestors.
"William Clayton was clearly among the men Joseph Smith talked about on May 26th 1844 who were betraying him." No, that's not true at all. Clayton was so loyal to Smith that Smith made him a member of his secret Council of Fifty. Clayton served as the recorder for the Council, and on April 11, 1844---ten weeks before Joseph's death---Clayton recorded the ordination of Smith as "our Prophet, Priest, and King by Hosannas." The "traitors" whom Smith talked about in his May 26 speech were polygamy dissidents William Law, Austin Cowles, and their supporters. Law had been trying to persuade Smith to renounce and abolish polygamy ever since Joseph had allowed his brother Hyrum to introduce the revelation on celestial marriage before the Nauvoo High Council on August 12, 1843. Law was a good, Christian man who knew that if polygamy and Smith's other recent heretical doctrines (such as a plurality of Gods) were not excised, that it could bring down the church and the city of Nauvoo along with it. As an example of Law's dissension, he wrote in his journal on January 8, 1844: "I thank God that he opened my understanding to know between truth and error, in relation to plurality & community of wives, and that I had the fortitude to tell Joseph that it was of the Devil and that he should put it down & I feel that I have opposed a base error and that the eternal God is on my side, and if I am persecuted it is because I vindicate principles of virtue and justice, not that I wish to injure any man, but I love the truth, and hate to see the virtuous destroyed and brought down into corruption and vice, and finally cast upon the world as unclean" To further illustrate Law's frustration with Joseph, he recorded this on March 29: "Since my last conversation with Joseph Smith which was on the 8th Jan’y I have had not association with him, as I do not with to associate with evil doers; he has in the meantime been using all his influence to destroy me, he has employed every vile and corrupt man and woman in the city over whom he has any power to circulate veil reports as false as the author of lies, about me and my wife, but he has failed to accomplish his object, for our names yet stand fair and untarnished in the estimation of the virtuous and the food; we find the better part of the community to be our friends; they feel disgusted with Smith’s course for it has been most disgusting lothsome to the virtuous mind, lust, falsehood, injustice, and cruelty have characterized his course wotwards me & mine in such an unparalleled degree that the unprejudiced could not but see it, and abhor the man and his base acts. "Hyrum smith was here a few days ago. He beg’d for peace; we told him of the corrupt operation which had been practiced upon us; he could not deny it, but said he was sorry as we had always been good friends to him and Joseph and had done much good for the church &c &c. I told him I was ready for an investigation before the Conference, and that I would bring their abominations to light; he said there would not be an investigation before [the] Conference, that they wanted peace. I told him then to cease their abominations, for they were from hell & that I knew it. He said they were not doing anything in the plurality of wife business now, and that he had published a piece against it; when I came to examine the piece refered to I found that it amounted to this, that no one should preach or practice such things unless by revelation (of course through Hyrum or Joseph). I told Hyrum that we stood on the defensive, we would defend the truth, we would defend ourselves both in character and in person." Rather than admitting that polygamy was wrong and abolishing it, Smith haughtily continued to deny teaching or practicing it. So Law responded by filing legal charges of living with Maria Lawrence "in an open state of adultery" on May 23. Smith's speech in which he denied practicing polygamy and denounced traitors three days later was in response to Law's charges. Remember, that was the same speech wherein Smith said "What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one." He was responding directly to Law's charges. Joseph's haughty denial bade Law & Co. to publish the Nauvoo Expositor, which detailed Joseph's secret polygamy practice. Joseph responded by ordering their printing press destroyed, and that unwise act led directly to his and Hyrum's deaths 17 days later. I tell you these facts to let you know that your ancestor William Clayton was extremely loyal to Joseph, and was definitely not one of the people whom Joseph denounced in his May 26 speech.
@@randyjordan5521 Joseph Smith himself clearly stated william Law and Joseph Jackson were completely untrustworthy. Why are you siding with his enemies? Joseph Smith discourse from May 26th 1844. This is Joseph Smiths last testimony, speach clarifying his views on polygamy From May 26th 1844: “God knows then the charges against me are false- I had not been married 〈scarcely〉 5 min. and made one proclamation 〈of the gospel〉 before it was reported that I had 7 wives. I mean to live 〈and proclaim the truth〉as long as I can.- This new holy prophet 〈(William Law)〉has gone to Carthage and swore that I had told him that I was guilty [p. 5] of adultery,- this Spiritual wifeism-why a man dares not speak, or wink, for fear of being accused of this.” “William Law testified before Police〈men〉, and a whole number 〈the assembly room full〉of witnesses, that he testified under oath, that he never 〈had〉 heard, or seen, or knew any thing 〈immoral or〉criminal against me. He testified under oath that he was my friend, and not the Brutus” There was a cogitation who was the Brutus.- I had not prophesied against William Law. He swore, under oath, that he was satisfied, that he was ready to lay down his life for me; and now he swears that I have committed adultery- I wish the Grand Jury would tell me who they are- whether it will be a curse or blessing to me.- I am quite tired of the fools asking me.- A man asked me whether the commandment was given that a man may have seven wives; and now the new prophet has charged me with Adultery. “I never had any fuss 〈with these men〉until that Female Relief Society brought out the paper against adulterers and adulteresses- Dr [William] Goforth was invited into the Laws’ clique- and Dr Foster and the clique were dissatisfied with that document- and they rush away 〈and leave the church, and conspire> to take away my life; and because I will not countenance such [p. [6]] wickedness 〈they proclaim that I have been a true prophet, but that〉 I am now a fallen prophet.” Jackson has committed murder, robbery, 〈&〉perjury, and I can prove it by half a dozen witnesses Jackson got up, and said ‘By God he is innocent;’ and now swears that I am guilty- he threatened my life. There is another Law, not the prophet, who was cashiered for dishonesty and robbing the government. Wilson Law also swears that I told him I was guilty of adultery. Brother 〈Jonathan> Dunham can swear to the contrary. I have been chained- “I have rattled chains before- 〈in a dungeon for the truth’s sake.〉I am innocent of all these charges, and you can bear witness 〈of my innocence; for you know me yourselves.〉” “When I love the poor- I ask no favors of the rich- I can go to the cross, I can lay down my life, but don’t forsake me. I want the friendship of my brethren- let us teach the things of Jesus Christ- pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a downfall-be 52 meek and low〈ly,〉upright and pure; render good for evil- if you bring on yourselves your own destruction, I will complain- It is not right for a man to bear down his neck to the oppressor always. Be humble, 〈&〉 patient in all circumstances of life. He shall then triumph more gloriously- “What a thing it is for a man to 〈be accused of〉commiting [p. [7]] adultery and have〈ing〉 seven wives, when I can only find one I am the same man, and as innocent as I was 14 years ago, and I can prove them all perjurers.” “I labored with them, 〈these apostates myself until I was out of 〈all manner of〉 patience,〉 and then I sent my brother, 〈Hyrum〉 when whom they virtually kicked him out of doors. I then sent Mr Backenstos when they declared that they were my enemies. I told Mr Backenstos when they declared that he might tell Mr 〈the〉 Laws if they had any cause against me I would go before the the Church and confess it to the world. He was summoned time and again, but he refused 〈to come.> Dr. [John M.] Bernhisel and Elder [Sidney] Rigdon know that I speak the truth.- I cite you to Captain Dunham, 〈Esquires〉 Johnson, 〈&〉 Wells 〈bror〉 Hatfield and others for the truth of what I have said. “ “I have said this to let my friends know that I am right- As I grow older, my heart grows tenderer for you. I will 〈am at all times willing to〉 give up every thing that I am wanted 〈to〉, in order that you may 〈is wrong for I wish this people to〉have a virtuous leader- I have set your minds at liberty by letting you know the things of Jesus Christ Jesus”
Of course he's an historian - just like Fauci is a virologist - they both fairly and dispassionately weigh both sides of the issues, and ensure complete freedom of thought and discussion...
Hales' productions mirror the research of numerous Mormon historians beginning in the 1880s when church historian Andrew Jenson set out to compile a list of Joseph Smith's plural wives. He listed 27. In the 1940s, Fawn Brodie's research produced 48 possible wives. In 1997, Todd Compton's book "In Sacred Loneliness" winnowed the number down to 33, because he only included those for which exists multiple documentation. Brian Hales has published very little info that wasn't already researched and known about since Brodie pored through church archives 80 years ago. Hales simply compiled the info in such a way as to document plural marriages alone.
Nothing in this three hour presentation negates the evidence from numerous other sources which clearly shows that Joseph Smith originated polygamy in Mormonism.
Wow! This was amazingly well done. I have been looking forward to this since you announced it was coming. I am so grateful for your work and I love Jeremy’s contributions! Thank you both so much!!
Here is the sad reality, these are not dreams, they are the foolish imaginations of their hearts, the lustful desires played out in their minds as daydreams. They are trying to imagine a way to make such things happen, and how to get around the marriages that exist. Going down such a road not only breaks the commandment to not commit adultery, but it makes one covet his neighbor's wife and most scenario's require a person to covet their neighbor's life: i.e. they imagine the death of the neighbor so they can swoop in and be with the new widow. These are daydreams, or the foolish imaginations of the heart the place where sin is conceived.
They have to keep the line of priesthood authority in tact. It’s imperative to the official narrative of the SLC based Brighamite Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. If Brigham did what is being suggested by denouncing Josephs polygamy then the current LDS church has a link missing in their authority. Michelle and Jeremy how do you reconcile this? Honest question and not an attack:)
@@Sayheybrother8 My opinion is that the 12 did have authority as a group under the priesthood of the first Presidency. Yet they did not have the higher keys of presidency that Joseph and Hyrum held. Joseph had said that if anything happened to him and Hyrum that his keys were to go to Samuel Smith. So the conspirators killed Samuel as well. The 12 were traveling elders with no right to set up stakes or preside as first presidency, etc. There is a reason there are no more revelations and visitations since there murder of Hyrum and Joseph. Yet the 12 could not have gotten the prophetic keys as they died with the Smiths and they did not pass them on to anyone. I still do believe that the rights to lesser priesthood continued but are only to be handled based on righteousness. Like Alma when he repented after escaping King Noah still had the keys but could not use them as he had turned righteous. It is sure complicated.
Is a shame the church has now announced “the completion” of the joseph smith papers - yet we don’t have the full record of Clayton’s journal. Why is that?
@@morjulies it makes no sense to hide the information. As a matter of historical record, even if the things written in it go against a particular narrative, it is still something to be transparent with. The diary could say all sorts of things, in the end it is only one persons opinion and writing. It just isn’t a smart move to wait when it will come out eventually, no doubt.
There is already enough of Clayton's journal entries as well as many other contemporary documents published to prove that Joseph Smith originated polygamy in Mormonism.
That was excellent. HOW can Hales and company dismiss this? How can he call what you do amateur work? If you put all of Jeremy's work, your podcasts, Whitney's work, and everyone else's work together it would far exceed the three volumes Hales cobbled together. If it wasn't apparent before, you and everyone else in this movement should abandon responding to the critics. There is enough information now that to believe that spiritual wifery and polygamy were born of Joseph would require you to be mentally ill.
According to the history of my Swedish g-g-grand parents, my grandfather said he never would have committed to the things in the endowment had he fully understood the English language. He also said that in order to get to the next, or terrestrial degree in the temple, he had to take a second wife. I'm curious to know if there is anything historically that could verify this? He never did take a second wife (even though he tried at least twice), because of his courageous, virtuous and educated wife (who had studied the book of Mormon, specifically Jacob 2). He was humble enough to listen to her which propelled him to deeply study the scriptures. He must have been found out by the leaders of the church because he was later publically excommunicated. Although not in detail, the history states that the persecution they faced would have filled volumes if they were to tell what happened to them.
Is my understanding that it was commonly taught that at least three wives were needed for exaltation in the celestial Kingdom. I'm sure there was a lot of variety in the teachings, but that was definitely a common one.
This man needs to be the official church historian.. other men have failed in their whole life time to do what this man has done.. amazing work.. from the both of you.. such a worthy cause…
That was your best episode so far. Excellent and very detailed so that it would be hard to get confused. Thanks to you both. You let your guest speak and added important comments. It does open a can of worms as to just how depraved these men?? were. It also makes you realize why Joseph, Hyrum and Samuel's lives were forfeit. They did not stand a chance. I always find it amazing that the apologists and exmo's love to trash Joseph. If he were heading this garbage they would not have killed him but rather held him up in their craft and called a university by his name. No Joseph was marred and it remains now for God to straighten this mess up when he sends his servant to gather other servants. I do not see this as an LDS gathering and restoration but God himself doing the great and marvelous work. I for one cannot wait though we have very very tough times ahead first.
" I always find it amazing that the apologists and exmo's love to trash Joseph. If he were heading this garbage they would not have killed him but rather held him up in their craft and called a university by his name." You continue to demonstrate your cluelessness of the facts. Joseph and Hyrum were killed because Joseph ordered the destruction of the printing press which published a newspaper that exposed Joseph's secret polygamy practice. They were killed by a non-Mormon vigilante mob who were outraged over Smith's violation of the freedom of the press. Not a single Mormon, whether pro-polygamy or anti-polygamy, had anything to do with their deaths. We "exmos" trash Joseph Smith because he was an obvious fraud, criminal, and adulterer. People like me are posting here in an effort to deprogram people like you from the falsehoods that church leaders and apologists have brainwashed you with for your entire life.
1:13:14 Of course sex wouldn't be the only problem; the only not OK behavior. I don't want my husband to have emotional closeness and alone time with another woman!
This was amazing and the best one I’ve watched next to God is Not a Polygamous.” I’m disheartened to learn the violent threats in the endowments… I did not know that at all. And now I’m feeling that endowments really are a sham or at the very least corrupted beyond recognition.
@Alicia-yn6gt Could they have grossly misinterpreted these things? Looking back, it seems they thought marriage to the Prophet/higher authority was the Celestial goal, but didn't know it was really about each being able to remain married and connected with their families on the other side and through the eternities; and that it was lOVE that would seal them and prepare them to live a life like God's. The Endowment is truly a gift of teaching. It teaches us a symbolic process of growth and becoming and true progression. It's a gift to help enlarge our vision of this life process.
@ I’m sure it has it value. Perhaps the ceremony is just to teach, rather than covenants or necessary for salvation. I’m still exploring it. But I agree with your thought of how love is what binds us together.
A lot of Clayton's journals have been on the internet for at least 15-20 years, including the portions where he recorded the dictation of the revelation on celestial marriage and Joseph's performance of his plural marriage sealing to his wife's sister.
He wrote this stuff, about staying up until 2 AM, in the year 1840. Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet at Kirtland, Ohio, December 27 and 28, 1832, and January 3, 1833 says "retire to thy bed early, that ye may not be weary; arise early, that your bodies and your minds may be invigorated."
@@fotochikyo The point is that William Clayton, by staying up until 2 AM, was not following the Lord's advice from years earlier to go to bed early and get up early. Jeremy and Michelle are encouraging us to decide whether William C. was a trustworthy person. He doesn't sound very righteous. He also wasn't cleaving to his one wife and none else.
2:24:00 The problem with this statement from Brigham is that if women are passed up the keychain, then Christ will be the only one to have any wives. All keys will be delivered to Him in the end. Here is the statement from the church website: "In the last days, Adam, as a resurrected being, will come again to the place called Adam-ondi-Ahman, located in northern Missouri, USA. There he will again gather with others, including many other resurrected beings. Prophets who have held priesthood keys will deliver their keys up to Adam, who was the first to hold such keys and is the father of the human family on earth. He will then deliver the keys to Jesus Christ. This will be an important event to help prepare for the Second Coming of Jesus Christ to all the world."
Best comment! Those are my husband's favorite movies! I'm using your comment to make him watch it! Plus he corrected you that it's actually 13 hours total for the three movies, so now I can make him watch at least 6 of my episodes 😂
William Clayton penned the hymn, “Come, Come Ye Saints.” Beautiful song, always enjoyed singing it. But I always thought the chorus was a bit strange considering 2 Nephi 28:25.
He wrote “Come, Come Ye Saints” eh? Hrm it appears the truth about William Clayton was staring us in the face all along!!! In the words of Quagmire: “Giggety giggety, giggety goo” William Clayton is the anti Joseph Smith. Joseph loved Emma, and no one else. William hated his wife (no one can ever have more than one wife) , and loved (lusted) all his concubines.
Here's what William Clayton wrote about that: "Hyrum very urgently requested Joseph to write the revelation by means of the Urim and Thummim, but Joseph, in reply, said he did not need to, for he knew the revelation perfectly from beginning to end." What Hyrum was referring to was not the "two stones in silver bows, fastened to a breastplate" business. He was referring to Joseph's "seer stone" which he had obtained while working his folk-magic peepstone business in the late 1820s. The LDS church still owns the stone.
Unbelievably disgusting and sickening. I am glad that I was already down this path, otherwise I would be wondering. You two have done an incredible job of sleuthing and making connections; they can not denied. Thank you for bringing all to light. The SLC LDS church has nothing to stand on. I believe that bringing this to the forefront is part of the end times so that we can make a conscious decision to follow Christ as we should all be doing anyway and not accepting the lies and manipulations and deceptions that the SLC church is based on. With all the corruption going on around them - and people willing to follow - there is just no way that Joseph and Hyrum, pretty much single handedly, could counter it. I wouldn't be surprised if your public research will have consequences. Buckle up and keep your integrity.
Michelle, I have a question? Knowing what you know about Brigham, how can you still trust anything in the temple endowment now as it was tainted early on & messed up big time by polygamists.
@@MichelleBStoneGreat! I loved the last one on Godfathers of Polygamy and I was like, yes, yes, yes. I am watching this one now. Truth is coming forth and it matters so much. You two are incredible instruments in God's hands. Thank you for your fearlessness in truth, both you & Jeremy. You guys rock!
I have read elsewhere that "washed my feet" was a Victorian code phrase for intimate activity. Propriety substituted terms for acts that couldn't be talked about in open society. Another was the term "comfort me" which also had reference to the same intimate activity, and is the term Joseph Smith often used in letters to his many 'wives." No one in those days just came out and spoke of sex. The idea of a wife washing her husband's feet to lay claim on him in the eternities was a one-time event, not an ongoing, repeating act. This idea of women washing William Clayton's feet each time they got together is likely a veiled reference to something else...
Fabulous episode! Any additional context on 1:05:19? Just that Clayton is a pathological liar? Do we know what Joseph’s secretary recorded for that day about Joseph’s activities? I would like to see the journal references to Joseph specifically addressed, if possible. Maybe it’s towards the end of the episode? I haven’t quite finished.
Jeremy Hoop is famous in our home for his appearance in "Jonah and the Great Fish" in the Liken series.... my kids all knew who he was as soon as they saw him on this interview 😆
Something that really is starting to bother me is the culture in our church that we aren’t allowed to read anything that isn’t produced by the church. This narrative published by Catherine Lewis is really clear and rings true. The way the women were treated by some of these early church leaders is despicable. I’m glad the temple penalties were removed. But for 150 years people were swearing to this???! That’s really sad!
@@JeremyHoop "About this time, I had a conversation with Joe, (who, it will be recollected still professed great friendship for me, doubtlessly for sinster purposes), which turned on the spiritual wife doctrine. Joe had been drinking quite freely, and I broached the subject of the rumor concerning Mrs. Milligan and Lavina. Joe would not own that he had tried his own sister, but confessed the whole matter in relation to Lavina; and said that he got Hyrum to consent to it by giving him one of his spiritual girls, whom Hyrum loved dearly, (a Miss S.) He said that he had lost Lavina by the foolishness of Clayton but, said he, 'I'll have her yet.' This William Clayton is one of Joe's private clerks and a ready cat's paw for all manner of base work. He has lived with his wife and wife's sister in common for the last year, and has children by both of them. This is the man who Joe had set to work to lead his niece into the paths of iniquity, aiding him by feigned revelations. But this innocent girl had timely warning from her aunt, who admonished her not to hearken to the foul counsels of her father and uncle, and was thus saved from the pit into which so many had fallen." ---Joseph H. Jackson, June 1844.
@@JeremyHoop Yo, Jeremy: You have obviously spent a lot of time combing through William Clayton's journals and other historical material so you can pick out items which make you believe that Clayton, Kimball, and other people besides Joseph Smith were behind polygamy. Since you enjoy poring through old journals, below are some of William Law's journal entries from 1844 in which he documents the conflict between himself and Joseph and Hyrum Smith at the time. I invite you to read this material and see if you can spot any evidence that Joseph Smith had something to do with plural marriage: 8 [January] I was passing along the street near my house, when call’d to by Joseph Smith, he said I was injuring him by telling evil of him, he could not name any one that I talked to, he said my wife was injuring him and that Wilson Law was doing so too; he could not give any authority but was very angry, and told me that I had no longer a place in the Quorum, and that he had cut me off from the first Presidency and appointed another in my place. Some unpleasant words ensued. I told him his cause was not only unjust but dishonourable, &c. &c. I confess I feel annoyed very much by such unprecedented treatment for it is ilegal, inasmuch as I was appointed by revelation (so called) first and twice after by unanimous voice of the general Conferences, -but I feel relieved from a most embarrassing situation I cannot fellowship the abominations which I verily know are practiced by this man, concequently I am glad to be free from him, and from so vile an association- I thank God that he opened my understanding to know between truth and error, in relation to plurality & community of wives, and that I had the fortitude to tell Joseph that it was of the Devil and that he should put it down & I feel that I have opposed a base error and that the eternal God is on my side, and if I am persecuted it is because I vindicate principles of virtue and justice, not that I wish to injure any man, but I love the truth, and hate to see the virtuous destroyed and brought down into corruption and vice, and finally cast upon the world as unclean. March 29. Since my last conversation with Joseph Smith which was on the 8th Jan’y I have ahd not association with him, as I do not with to associate with evil doers; he has in the meantime been using all his influence to destroy me, he has employed every vile and corrupt man and woman in the city over whom he has any power to circulate veil reports as false as the author of lies, about me and my wife, but he has failed to accomplish his object, for our names yet stand fair and untarnished in the estimation of the virtuous and the food; we find the better part of the community to be our friends; they feel disgusted with Smith’s course for it has been most disgusting lothsome to the virtuous mind, lust, falsehood, injustice, and cruelty have characterized his course wotwards me & mine in such an unparalleled degree that the unprejudiced could not but see it, and abhor the man and his base acts. Hyrum smith was here a few days ago. He beg’d for peace; we told him of the corrupt operation which had been practiced upon us; he could not deny it, but said he was sorry as we had always been good friends to him and Joseph and had done much good for the church &c &c. I told him I was ready for an investigation before the Conference, and that I would bring their abominations to light; he said there would not be an investigation before [the] Conference, that they wanted peace. I told him then to cease their abominations, for they were from hell & that I knew it. He said they were not doing anything in the plurality of wife business now, and that he had published a piece against it; when I came to examine the piece refered to I found that it amounted to this, that no one should preach or practice such things unless by revelation (of course through Hyrum or Joseph). I told Hyrum that we stood on the defensive, we would defend the truth, we would defend ourselves both in character and in person. April 15. Conference is over, and some of the most blasphemous doctrines have been taught by J. Smith & others ever heard of. Such as a plurality of Gods, other gods as far above our God as he is above us. That he wrought out his salvation in the flesh with fear and trembling, the same as we do; that J. SMith is a god to this generation, that secret meetings are all legal and right and that the Kingdom must be set up after the manner of a Kingdom (and of course have a King) &c. &c. It was a strange Conference, was not organised at all, and was managed in a most unprecedented manner. Hyrum Smith stated to the Conference that the Law’s were not engaged in any conspiracy as had been stated; that Jackson had said he said they were honourable men and had done a great deal for the place, that the steam mills were of great use to the city, &c. &c. May 13. This day Sidney Rigdon came to my house and said that he came fully authorized to negotiate terms of peace. I told him to make his proposition. He said it was that if we would let all difficulties drop that we (Wilson Law, my wife Jane Law, R. D. Foster and myself[)] should be restored to our standing in the Church and to all our offices, and they would publish it in the papers. We told him that we had not been cut off from the Church legally, and therefore did not ask to be restored. He said that, he knew the proceedings were illegal and very wrong, and said they would publish that fact to the world if we won’t be satisfied. He said they wanted peace. I told him that if they wanted peace they could have it on the following conditions, That Joseph Smith would acknowledge publicly that he had taught and practised the doctrine of the plurality of wives, that he brought a revelation supporting the doctrine, and that he should own the whole system (revelation and all) to be from Hell; to acknowledge also that he had lately endeavored to seduce my wife, and had found her a virtuous woman, and that the persecution against me and my friends was unjust; if Smith and his followers will entirely cease from their abominations and fully undeceive the people as to those things, then I would agree to cease hostilities, otherwise we would publish all to the world. June 1st.[1844] Since our Conference April 21st we have held public meetings every sabbath day; our enemies rage, and publish slander about us, but we cease not to vindicate the cause of truth, and oppose crime. To this end we have purchased a printing press and intend issuing in a few days a paper to be entitled the Nauvoo Expositor. This course has caused great alarm in the camp of our enemies; they are running to and fro, not knowing how to shield themselves; they use every means possible to destroy our influence; our lives are threatened and our steps watched by night and day. 7th [June]. This day the Nauvoo Expositor goes forth to the world, rich with facts, such expositions as make the guilty tremble and rage. 1000 sheets were struck and five hundred mailed forthwith. If the paper is suffered to continue it will set forth deeds of the most dark, cruel and damning ever perpetrated by any people under the name of religion since the world began.
@@JeremyHoop Yo Jeremy: You believe that Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, William Clayton, and other high-ranking Mormons were practicing polygamy behind Joseph Smith's back and against his teachings. You believe that Joseph Smith was totally opposed to polygamy. If your belief is correct, then why did Joseph's close associate for 14 years, Sidney Rigdon, write this after Joseph's and Hyrum's deaths? "On Thursday evening we gave the history of Nauvoo, and the events that led to the death of the Smiths, which, of course, we traced to the introduction of the spiritual wife system; for all that know any thing about it, that it was the introduction of that system which led to the death of the Smiths, and that if that system had not been introduced, they might have been living men to-day."---March 15, 1845. "They introduced a base system of polygamy, worse by far than that of the heathen; this system of corruption brought a train of evils with it, which terminated in their entire ruin. After this system was introduced, being in opposition [to] the laws of the land, they, had to put truth at defiance to conceal it, and in order to do it, perjury was often practiced. This system was introduced by the Smiths some time before their death, and was the thing which put them into the power of their enemies, and was the immediate cause of their death."---June, 1846.
The discourse on August 13th that upset Margaret’s mother so much was pretty simple. Joseph smith referred to the covenant in temples as being a promise to follow Jesus Christ and be sealed into the abrahamic covenant. That shouldnt have bothered her so much…unless she had been told the sealings in temples was for another purpose. Perhaps she had been told by Clayton, or Brigham young that the covenant in temples was a covenant into polygamy. She found out she had been deceived.
An amazing first look at William Clayton! The control and gaslighting of these plural wives is so sad. I looked up what it means to "take water" in England. Probably refers to taking mineral baths in hot springs together. Bath, England was a hot spot for this sort of thing. Keep up the good work! I'm anxious to read more about Catherine Lewis!
Any time someone speaks ill of their wife it’s 100% trouble. The man isn’t living a morally clean life. For those that claim you can speak poorly about your wife - you’re on the road of adultery or some immoral behavior. The reason William speaks so poorly about his wife is as obvious as anyone that has ever seen a soul walk down these adulterous paths.
@@randyjordan5521 What Jospeh wrote about Emma was always loving and inspiring. He never defamed her and loved her as one should love their wife. Emma felt the same for Jospeh and helped him with wisdom and love. So yes, I do know their beautiful love story. My guess is you’re going off rumors from both Brigham and Willam Clayton for your untruthful accusations about Joseph & Emma. Please provide any documentation showing from Jospeh’s own pen and journals anything that would disrespect his wife. I’ve studied this topic well over a hundred plus hours and have never found a single instance from Jospeh. To this day, I choose to seek blessings from Jospeh’s hand and I’d suggest you look into the matter so that you might receive the same blessings: The ends of the earth shall inquire after your name, and fools shall have you in derision, and hell shall rage against you, while the pure in heart, and the wise, and the noble, and the virtuous shall seek counsel, and authority, and blessings constantly from under your hand.
This is a major development Randy Jordan! Your assertion contradicts literally everything Joseph and Emma ever said or did publicly. I’m assuming you’ve spoken to Emma herself about these “troubles”. What exactly did she say to you about it?!
@@mattenger7064 "What Jospeh wrote about Emma was always loving and inspiring." Well, except maybe for this little tidbit: D&C 132:52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God. 54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.
Amazing video. I believe every single young man and woman getting ready to go to the temple and receive their endowments should first read what you revealed around the 2:50:00 mark. Devastating.
@@unfeigned4997 isaiah 24:The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
@@Kait272 no one completely knows what the original covenants and ordinances were because Joseph Smith did not write them down. Based on historical evidence and doctrinal contradictions, it would appear that the ordinances B.Y. instated in the temple were likely flawed and inaccurate. So, there is no need for us to preserve them, as they were likely already "transgressed". Because of this, I welcome the modern-day changes that have been made regarding the temple covenants and ordinances in the last 30 years. It is my hope and assertion that those changes are a result of God trying to steer us back to what he ORIGINALLY gave to Joseph Smith. God can correct our course, if it is His will and if He still wants to work with this church and save it in the end.
@@WildPelivan This is isaiah speaking. The temple covenant is not the reason the church is under condemnation. it is failing to live up to the covenant that is written in the book of mormon that is the reason for the condemnation of the church. Take isaiah at his word or not - it is your choice.
Nearly an hour into this video and all the delusions of grandeur going on with William Clayton and all the fruits being shared with him and extra curricular "gospel missionary work" going on and I think I CLEARLY UNDERSTAND why the Church hasn't released or is now planning to possibly NEVER release William Clayton's journals. My oh my. What saucy, steamy goings on.
Wow… my jaw is on the floor.. @Michelle, Something that I think would help with future videos, especially for those who fully believe the Joseph Smith Polygamy narrative, is to really try to avoid leading with personal ideas or additions to the historical documents. I think the documents can speak for themselves and do all the exposing! but if too many personal conclusions are emphasized, I can see how someone could use that to discredit the whole JSmith is innocent narrative. It’s so hard to stay impartial with such an important topic, but I think it is what will disarm the current polygamy narrative. The documents themselves, with a little help from you, Jeremy and others connecting the dots 😊.
Joseph S., like Joseph of Egypt was betrayed by his "brothers." He became the scapegoat for their lust and jealousy, wanting his position. They both remained chaste and faithful, unlike those who betrayed them, and they all lied to cover what they did to both Josephs.
Does anyone have a timeline in a graphic format for all the historical details? I think that would be a great thing to have. All accusations showing the date they supposedly happened and all the rebuttals and evidences to the contrary.
That would be amazing! Probably hard to carry out in reality since there are so many things that would need to be included, but I think the effort would be very worthwhile.
@@MichelleBStone I was thinking while listening to your latest today that it would need to be more interactive. Date: names or abbreviations for documents that are links. Then each link goes to the days. Might be more of a website project…
There are numerous contemporarily-published documents which make it perfectly clear that Joseph Smith originated polygamy in Mormonism. All of these citations from William Clayton's and Heber C. Kimball's journals and letters have zero relevance to the evidence which shows that Smith started it. I suggest you read these three documents: The Nauvoo Expositor Buckeye's Lamentation For Want Of More Wives A Narrative of the Adventures and Experience of Joseph H. Jackson in Nauvoo All three documents are on the internet.
@@randyjordan5521 you completely missed the point. I’m talking about everything in context. Not just the writings of those enemies who wanted him dead or those today who ignore enduring to the contrary. Let’s put it ALL together. Thanks for having an opinion though. ;)
@@WildUtahEdibles You wrote that you wanted a timeline of "all the historical details." But now you say that you only want ones which favor Joseph Smith. The idea that William Law and his fellow publishers of the Nauvoo Expositor wanted Smith dead is false propaganda which was first voiced by Smith after Law filed legal charges against him of committing adultery and polygamy. Smith did that in order to cast himself as the victim in the situation. If you would read Law's journal entries from 1844; the text of the Nauvoo Expositor; and Law's 1887 interview, it is obvious that he was a good, Christian man who pleaded with Joseph Smith to renounce polygamy and his other recent false doctrines such as the plurality of Gods and his establishment of a theocratic/political kingdom. Law's journal entries make it clear who was plotting to kill whom: "June 11th. This day we learn that a combination is entered into to take away our lives (Law’s & Foster) and that the Mayor and City Council are passing an ordinance to fine in the sume of $500.00 and imprison six months any person who speaks disrespectfully of the City Charter, or any ordinance of said City, or any citizen of said City. We found that this plan was resorted to that they might by a form of law rob us of our property, and get us into their prisons to take away our lives. We therefore thought it wisdom to retire from the midst of a den of robbers, and murderers,--. "It was is truly mortifying to be under the necessity of leaving good comfortable homes, with but a few hours to prepare, yet it was is the only course left, and so we commenced packing our goods &c. June 12th. This day myself, my wife and children (three), Wilson Law, R. D. Foster, wife and child and two other families leave Nauvoo, on a steamboat for Burlington, Iowa. My brother and I had nine horses, three waggons & two carriages & most of our furniture, much of which could not be got up under cover, and we had rain nearly all the time going up; lay over one night on the way because of darkness." Law also said this in his 1887 interview: “Had you any idea that there was a sort of conspiracy to kill Joseph in jail?” “No. I had no idea, no idea. I had been ruined by that man; all my property was gone; all my dearest illusions destroyed, and through my connection with him I got a black spot on my life, which will pain me to the very last minute of my existence. But I tell you [The old gentlemen buried his head in his hands and when he removed them, his eyes were wet.] I tell you, no, if I had had any idea of any such scheme, I would have taken steps to stop it. I have always considered the killing of Joseph Smith a wrong action. It is my opinion that he deserved his fate fully, much more than thousands of men who paid the penalty of their crime to Judge Lynch-but I would have preferred that he should have been tried by court and sent to the Penitentiary.” End quotes. You wrote that you want to see "everything in context." Law's account helps put the entire issue of Joseph Smith's polygamy practice in context. I do agree with you that it would be helpful to have a timeline showing who said or wrote what about polygamy from its beginnings.
At 2:35, we see the tender feelings William had for Joe. No way was he out there going rogue. He truly believed polygamy came from Joe. No conspiracy theory needed.
@2:54 If only those had been idle threats. Sad what so many people in Utah had to endure. And it wasn't only the women who were threatened into submission
A couple of things. 2/- is two shillings, not farthings or pounds etc. Also, because William and others served without purse or scrip, keeping a record of this law manifesting itself in the form of gifts of money, food etc is entirely understandable.
The affidavits in the Nauvoo Expositor confirm all the important parts of D&C 132 and are contemporaneous and independent of William Clayton. So Clayton's centrality is vastly overstated in this podcast. The story of William Clayton is very enlightening, however!
There are numerous historical documents published during Joseph Smith's life, completely independent from the Expositor affidavits, from a wide variety of people, which state that Joseph Smith originated polygamy.
Would be interested in knowing if WC wrote at all about Margaret being pregnant before she gave birth. Seems she got pregnant right away of course they would'nt let her out of the 'covenant'! Now all her grief and anger and sorrow makes complete sense. Yikes.
Shocking- but not really when you see the truth- that these journals are about sleeping with women- and the writing sounds like middle schoolers- rather then writing about the restoration, missionary work- etc.
Sounds like they thought they were away from home and could do as they pleased...i feel this is a scandal and does not show them as christians or part of any reformed gospel...very distasteful..who were they answerable to..did joseph not hear of any of this..??
@@lrsvalentine did you listen to this episode? Where did you find Joseph in Clayton's mission journal? Why do you cling to your insistence that it started with him? Why not look honestly at these guys?
@@MichelleBStoneYes I listened. Very unconvincing. Why twist the meaning in Clayton's journal until it screams? I mean one of your pieces of evidence was that Clayton didn't wax poetic about his family as Joe the conman did. Seriously, you believe Joe (King of the earth) had no clue about any of this? You believe the gates of hell prevailed against Jesus' one true church right after its restoration for the last time? Or, Joe made it up (racist scriptures, fraudulent bank, king of the earth, polygamy...). Seriously, you're worshipping a narcissist.
LOL. According to William Clayton, Joseph Smith spoke of little other than plural marriage for the last year of his life. I suppose that a man with 33 plural wives would tend to talk about it with his private secretary quite a bit.
Jeremy hoop you mention that in one of William Clayton’s journal entries he stated that he had always known or had been taught that plural marriage was of God. He was taught and converted by brigham young and Heber c kimball in England right? Im wondering if this statement in his journal could be the proof that Brigham Young and Heber C Kimball were preaching plural marriage to converts in england. This would be in contradiction to their accounts that they began the practice after learning of it from Joseph smith after their missions. They both later stated they got personal revelations about it on their missions, but if they were preaching it to clayton their story falls apart.
This was a really informative presentation. Wow, I had no idea about Clayton's background. It is really tragic that these "secret priesthood" brethren were able to wrench the Church from the path that it was on while JSJr and Hyrum were leading it (not to say it was perfect). It is sad to think what The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints could have been had things taken a brighter path. We weren't ready for it and neither was the world.
1:57:57 He asked and God answered. “God show me if I am wrong in taking many wives.” Next sentence: “Joseph came and sealed me to my first wife.” This isn’t hard.
@@randyjordan5521 Oof!!😂I know I lose your respect for it but we part ways at Joseph. I'm not arguing your history knowledge which runs circles around mine. But no DNA kids from all those wives made me walk back my confidence on his polygamy. Not going to condemn a man who said he didn't do it and left no physical evidence and most (every one?) of his accusers were proven...truth fudgers. These guys had some serious motive.
Michelle, I've noticed your volume appears to be much louder than the people you interview (on my end, anyway). Just an FYI. I don't know if it's a technical issue, or the byproduct of trying to get the attention of lots of children ;-)
Jacob chapter 2 is arguably one of the most important chapters in ALL of scripture for the LDS to understand. One of the key words to unlock this understanding is HEARKEN. It’s used three times. It doesn’t just mean to do but to believe. Those that even believe polygamy is of God are under condemnation according to this keystone of our religion. YOU are the ones the Lord is saying don’t understand the scriptures!!! This chapter is unequivocally a BOLD declaration that polygamy is an ABOMINATION! This unbelief WILL sink this unrepentant church! Read verses 31-35, especially 33 “I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.” Any wonder why pioneer life was a kick in the crotch. The believing saints that denounced polygamy from the get-go did not suffer like the polygamists. WAKE UP ZION AND CRY UNTO THE LORD SAYING POLYGAMY IS EVIL AND JOIN TEAM JESUS!!!
Polygamy as presented by Brigham and company is utterly evil. One cannot completely denounce or discount historical scripture reference to the most holy and righteous men that ever lived who were polygamists.
Great information. I don't know how this could be condensed but I'd love to see it condensed. More people would watch these if they were under an hour long.
You don’t have to listen all at once. There is a ton of Information that has to come out and a background for it. It takes time you can’t just leave things out to be able to understand what is going on. That is the problem now. To many precious and important things are taken out
A half hour could be cut out of this presentation if you remove every instance of Jeremy Hoop saying "What's that all about?" or "Hmmm, what does that mean?" or "More on that later." Like removing all of the "and it came to passes" in the Book of Mormon.
@@fotochikyo No it means that the other side is lying like crazy to say it. You can find guns smoking all over the place to say that Joseph was NOT a polygamist and that His accusers are liars but that is all ignored.
Michelle, God is truly using you as a sledge hammer to blow wide open the lies and deceptions we have all been laid under. This episode with Jeremy is truly what God has had in store for those who want the whole truth and nothing but the truth, to use a coined phrase. But if you had not persisted through all you have gone through we would not have this now. I believe that many of us have a part to play and as we see many emerging as you have done and stood like a warrior-ess, like a Joan of Arc, to cut through the overgrown forest to bring only the truth (roots) to be seen we can cleanse ourselves and prepare for the Lord's Coming. Right now your pieces on temples, SRA (which I know firsthand) and the truth from where polygamy stemmed, we can truly come before the Lord cleansed of the False Traditions that hold us bound under satan's power. THERE ARENT WORDS sufficient to thank Y❤U (and Jeremy) for what this podcast means to the truth seekers. One thing that is evident now is how many little (but gigantic in scope) word phrases and ideologies that started with this early group of evil men that persist today. No wonder I have felt less as a child of God and connected my being saved to my husband being saved and the sadness and use of force on my part to get him to be righteous because at a DNA level I have believed this narrative--that I can't be saved unless he is. I'm FREE and so is my husband. We can choose differently and it's okay. God will sort it all out. ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
It's interesting that the 'Father in the Gospel' topic actually points out that the patriarchal/hierarchical order of the church came from Brigham Young rather than Joseph Smith. Under Joseph, each increasingly large group (or ring, like tree rings) of authority in the structure (prophet, apostles, seventies, etc) was equal to the next... in kind of an egalitarian structure to be going on with... up to and including trying to set up the whole law of consecration for everyone. (Fantastic effort, Joseph! Even if it didn't work out.) But with BY it's all top down pyramid scheme, God help the ones (women) on the bottom. Grrr. Wonderful insights here, thank you!
I am listening while waiting for a jury. The trial is concerning slander. Since I’ve heard so much about slander in this four-day trial, slander is on my mind. I am hearing more slander than historical references.
Yes the slander of WC and BY. Yet WC's diary shows his love for JS in his own words at 2:35. No way was he going rogue here. JS practiced and sanctioned polygamy.
It's more innuendo than slander. According to Jeremy Hoop, every time William Clayton or Heber C. Kimball got their hair cut by a woman or had their feet washed by a woman or was given an orange by a woman, those are all euphemisms for "We had sex."
@132problemsrevisitingmormo8 have you read D&C 22:3? It kind of states that the baptismal covenant is the last one "3 For it is because of your dead works that I have caused this last covenant and this church to be built up unto me, even as in days of old." Why would anyone think that the house of the lord would hold any more covenants when the lord said it himself that baptism is the last one?
Here's the truth. Joe Smith was a treasure digger. When he couldn't make it at that dishonest living, he took up religion. He conned people with a fake bank. He conned people with land schemes. He conned people into thinking he could translate Egyptian. He secretly introduced polygamy. He was a pervert who married 14 year old girls. Sorry the truth hurts.
Furthermore, we talk of smoking guns. This was omitted from D&C 123. It would've followed vs. 17 but is missing. Hmmm, I wonder why Brigham & boys would leave it out. Just kidding. It's obvious. Joseph Smith in Liberty jail in 1839: "And again, I would further suggest the impropriety of the organization of bands or companies, by covenant or oaths, by penalties or secrecies, but let the time past of our experience and sufferings by the wickedness of Doctor Sampson Avard suffice and let our covenant be that of the everlasting covenant as is contained in the Holy Writ, and the things that God has revealed unto us. Pure friendship always becomes weakened the very moment you undertake to make it stronger by penal oaths and secrecy."
@@MichelleBStone I have spent the night with neighbors frequently as I age. Three of my friends have husbands in hospice care so I’ve stayed the night to give the women rest. Had foot washing been needed, I could have done such. I’m guessing a boarding situation produces close friendships. You people seem so overly suspicious…
@@MichelleBStone I have spent the night with neighbors frequently as I age. Three of my friends have husbands in hospice care so I’ve stayed the night to give the women rest. Had foot washing been needed, I could have done such. I’m guessing a boarding situation produces close friendships. You people seem so overly suspicious…
@@halliebrown3343William was a man on an LDS mission away from his wife spending countless hours with these young single women who he admitted to lusting after and/or later married. Maybe you haven't gotten to any of those entries yet. Nobody was on hospice and they weren't friends of his wife who wasn't with him. It is weird to me that you are trying to explain this away and normalize it.
@@halliebrown3343 Will I guess you are a les(censored), now. Hey, but think of this I have washed the feet ( I swear mud, dirt, snowy grit....) off the feet of my children, nieces, and nephews think about what that makes me 😥😰😥😢 God only knows what will be said about splinter removal.
4:35 Logical fallacy here... If one thing is true the other is not..... This is a logical fallacy, as there are more than 2 options. No hate, just pointing out where to improve
I’m listening to these personal accounts wondering what these men did to support themselves and their wives? We’re they engaged in a profession? How did they have the time to pursue women? We’re they paid clergy?
These early brethren (also today’s brethren) received a living allowance from the tithes of the church. Basically what the Book of Mormon describes as “Priestcraft.” The Book of Mormon literary shows every single failure the LDS church manifests today in word and very deed.
Were oranges a delicacy, or was there a double meaning? Seems weird they kept giving him oranges, and I didn't notice other fruits, other than raisins.
I do believe oranges were a specialty fruit. They don't grow in England, so would have had to be shipped, at great expense. For example, there are many stories of how special oranges were at Christmas for those lucky enough to get one.
@@MichelleBStone It strikes me as odd that it is always oranges. Yes they were a delicacy but there were other specialty fruit too. It seems like the washing comment that there is more to it.
I would enjoy listening to your guest. You are bringing on a guest for a purpose correct? I would like to hear what the guest has to say without the guest being interrupted every 30 seconds. Take notes, your commentary will be answered in the guests presentation. If something is missing, it would be prudent to interrupt. The constant interruption is overwhelming and distracting. I'd really like to hear what he has to say without constant, loud, interruptions. You make it extremely difficult to stay tuned into your videos. You have had amazing guests. Let them speak without constant interruptions please!
That was a really interesting Pod - A question that comes from all this "IS THE CHURCH TRUE"? Because everything from Brigham Young and there after falls a part! because it has no foundation!
It seems to me that that is only true if we accept the false premise that Brigham Young is the foundation of our church. If God is the foundation of our church, and if God did use Joseph Smith to bring forth the book of Mormon,, then perhaps the scriptural promises that no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing still apply, even if some of those unhallowed hands seized control.
@@MichelleBStone How does this then make it any different from what the Catholic Church claims - They had bad & corrupt Popes but they argue the same thing - that the Catholic Church is The kingdom of God by the line of authority back to Peter & t, therefore, Jesus Christ do you believe that the " Great Apostasy" as taught by the LDS church see Tamage really happen & therefore all other churches in Chrisidom are wrong & join none of them?
@@antonolder5560 It is the same, as Catholics. It is not apostasy. It is not apostasy because the current leaders are not prophets unless or until called on by god. Meanwhile they are inline or lineage, this is important as they can't be self-proclaimed. A bad leader is just that a bad leader. fyi- I don't believe Brigham was a bad leader by these standards, I think Brigham lead better than Joseph but that is a personal opinion.
@@antonolder5560 personally I'm not a big fan of the one true church doctrine in general. It's far too easy to clean that without understanding what it might actually mean. For me the infinitely more important question is am I doing what God inspires me to do each day, not what organization do I belong to. For me, God has told me to be in the LDS Church. I am thankful for that answer but I don't think it means the LDS church has all truth and other churches are lacking all truth. It seems to me the concrete approach I've believing there can only be one true church usually leads to pride and contention. I don't find God in that.
@@MichelleBStone Yes I agree with your reply as well - For me The Gospel of Jesus Christ is True & the LDS Church is adopting that approach more & more.
'um the summary is: Polygamy was widespread for years under Joseph? Polygamy was openly discussed under Joseph? Women were traded like playing cards under Joseph? Rumors were used to destroy woman's reputation under Joseph? Dissatisfied women could not appeal to Joseph, the 12 or the Church for relief? Women or wife swapping in the Church was normal and acceptable under Joseph? (just attend with a different wife) The other similar stories of these practices by Joseph are supported by these writings. It is the same behavior from the same time by Joseph's missionaries, confidents, and church presidents, these being people Joseph knew. How the presentation shows this and concludes that since Cochranites practiced communal living to include spiritual wives, polygamy, shared sexual partners, means Joseph wasn't the first, is confusing. FYI - Jacob Cochran was not the first polygamist there have been polygamists all through time.
I'm still waiting to see a single shred of actual evidence of any of this coming from Joseph. What we have is a huge library of falsified evidence from the later adherents of these practices trying desperately, despite the embarrassing lack of any hard evidence (a child for example, or if not, even a sermon, a letter, a journal entry -- that wasn't forged -- anything) to implicate Joseph to justify themselves. In addition, we have a few accusations, but again with no evidentiary support. You insist Joseph was the author of this despite these journals which reveal that these men (who just happened to become the main conspirators) were up to their eyeballs in it in England, years before any of them claimed Joseph "taught" it to them. Why does that not matter to people?
@@MichelleBStone Because the men who practiced adultery, bigamy, polygamy, spiritual wifery, open marriage, etc...( these are all sister actions) could not and did not make it official in the Church of Christ of Latter Day Saints, that was Joseph Smith the second. Those men could not as they lacked "the keys" and since multiple sources date this well within the time of Joseph being the key holder and Joseph leading the destruction of the Expositor for publishing this we know only Joseph could have done it. Joseph had no predecessor to the "keys" and Brigham was far too late. Joseph was on the wrong side of the Expositor, Joesph was under criminal charge for polygamy, not Brigham. So your evidence is the affidavits, the newspaper, the journals, and the testimonies and they all say the same on, about, or before July 12, 1843
@@MichelleBStone Because they are trolling you with no desire to look at facts. You make a video about polygamy and they will Reel over here to Vogel you into submission. I know you have the best of intentions but they do not. Sad really.
@@whatsup3270 Joseph destroyed the Expositor not because it exposed him but because it slandered him. Had he lived he would have proven it. He explained in the city council meeting what the actual revelation was. He believed he was within his right to destroy the expositor and offered to pay for it if he was wrong. The Expositor clan wanted Joseph dead, they had been trying to get Joseph to Carthage before publishing the Expositor. There are no contemporaneous journal accounts of Joseph's involvement with polygamy. The word of people who conspired to kill or hated Joseph hardly constitutes proof.
@@freethinker1026 If Joseph was not a polygamist he would have been on the side of the Expositor, of course there would not have been an Expositor or a reformed Church if Joesph was against polygamy. Governor Ford wrote Joseph a letter addressing these legal issues as destroying the press, that letter is a huge tell.
I'm just a gigolo (gigolo) and everywhere I go (gigolo) People know the part I'm playing (gigolo, gigolo, gigolo, gigolo, gigolo) Paid for every dance (gigolo), selling each romance (gigolo) Oh, what they're saying? (Gigolo, gigolo, gigolo, gigolo, gigolo) There will come a day, and youth will pass away What will they say about me? When the end comes, I know those were just a gigolo's Life goes on without me
I'm getting that these missionaries were popular with the women maybe in hopes to come to America? Did he not have any references of ministering to men?
No. He was not. Forget the Nelson narrative and remember 2 things. One, "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it", and two, "the Lord is faithful". You are setting up a man to be an idol, not that you wold ever do that, by concerning yourself with "ongoing" revelation when you can and are told you will such as with Matthew 24 (KJV). You will know the season, for example, but not the hour. That last lady was the example, "I shall ask for myself". My concern is that Michelle is opening up a wound that cannot be closed so let's close it! What does the Holy Ghost tell you? What other church will you go to? Have faith He will send you there if you ask. The Lord's work never ends and a few years of sex cult crap does not change that. That is why I do not believe in the "Great Apostasy"--a mormon dogma. It was what the Bible says--a falling away. Do not let anyone set the standard of YOUR faith in CHRIST no matter what the platform or institution. Remember who was in the Garden of Eden where God spoke to Adam and Eve--and do not think Satan can't be in the Temple--else wise, you would not have locks on the lockers in the changing room.
@@TheOGProtestantMormon bro that’s a lot of hurt coming out in one comment. One thing - did the gates of hell prevail against Christ? No, but he did die and was resurrected. It is a type of thing with the church. They gates of hell have not prevailed upon the principal of relevation, or the rock of relevation. I feel if you interpret that scripture the way you have, we cannot discuss much fruitfully. God bless.
Why does BY need to be "a prophet" in order for The Church to be in order and Christ's church today? The Priesthood keys were in full force among the Twelve in spite of BY. He was appointed as president of the church. Prophet, revelator and Seer have different roles. Not everyone then or now is a prophet SEERS and revelators. All three of those roles are based on righteousness and the influence of the Holy Ghost. Just because the wicked rule and the people mourn does not mean the people, who are THE Church isn't Christ's Church. The gospel of Jesus Christ is true no matter how out of line some leaders can fall. There were good righteous men in the Twelve carrying off the kingdom.
You guys make great points and I agree however its only fair to mention they were without purse or script and dependent on whomever would help them survive. So gifts, food etc being given are a huge deal (since they need the charity to survive). This in all fairness would also make the missionaries pretty vulnerable imo. Still, the whole situations definitely shows potential for natural temptations to flourish and lead to problems. They insist because he needs the food. Too hard on him imo lol. Not excusing him just stating that they had to seek out those who would care for them...gets cold on a mission lol.
Had Heber and Brigham just received a revelation about polygamy, while on their missions, before Joseph ever allegedly introduced it, that would be one thing. But when you have Brigham later saying that when Joseph presented it to him he was so against it that he desired the grave you know they are lying.
"It is a damnable heresy and the doctrine of the Devils" -Catherine Lewis. That sums it up perfectly.
I agree with Catherine Lewis. If Joseph Smith hadn't introduced the damnable heresy of polygamy in Mormonism, he wouldn't have been killed in Carthage Jail.
"We are earnestly seeking to explode the vicious principles of Joseph Smith, and those who practice the same abominations and whoredoms; which we verily know are not accordant and consonant with the principles of Jesus Christ and the Apostles; and for that purpose, and with that end in view, with an eye single to the glory of God, we have dared to gird on the armor, and with God at our head, we most solemnly and sincerely declare that the sword of truth shall not depart from the thigh, nor the buckler from the arm, until we can enjoy those glorious privileges which nature's God and our country's laws have guarantied to us-freedom of speech, the liberty of the press, and the right to worship God as seemeth us good."
"It is a notorious fact, that many females in foreign climes, and in countries to us unknown, even in the most distant regions of the Eastern hemisphere, have been induced, by the sound of the gospel, to forsake friends, and embark upon a voyage across waters that lie stretched over the greater portion of the globe, as they supposed, to glorify God, that they might thereby stand acquitted in the great day of God Almighty. But what is taught them on their arrival at this place?- They are visited by some of the Strikers, for we know not what else to call them, and are requested to hold on and be faithful, for there are great blessings awaiting the righteous; and that God has great mysteries in store for those who love the lord, and cling to brother Joseph. They are also notified that Brother Joseph will see them soon, and reveal the mysteries of Heaven to their full understanding, which seldom fails to inspire them with new confidence in the Prophet, as well as a great anxiety to know what God has laid up in store for them, in return for the great sacrifice of father of mother, of gold and silver, which they gladly left far behind, that they might be gathered into the fold, and numbered among the chosen of God.--They are visited again, and what is the result? They are requested to meet brother Joseph, or some of the Twelve, at some insulated point, or at some particularly described place on the bank of the Mississippi, or at some room, which wears upon its front--Positively NO Admittance. The harmless, inoffensive, and unsuspecting creatures, are so devoted to the Prophet, and the cause of Jesus Christ, that they do not dream of the deep laid and fatal scheme which prostrates happiness, and renders death itself desirable; but they meet him, expecting to receive through him a blessing, and learn the will of the Lord concerning them, and what awaits the faithful follower of Joseph, the Apostle and Prophet of God, When in the stead thereof, they are told, after having been sworn in one of the most solemn manners, to never divulge what is revealed to them, with a penalty of death attached that God Almighty has revealed it to him, that she should be his (Joseph's) Spiritual wife; for it was right anciently, and God will tolerate it again: but we must keep those pleasures and blessings from the world, for until there is a change in the government, we will endanger ourselves by practicing it-but we can enjoy the blessings of Jacob, David, and others, as well as to be deprived of them, if we do not expose ourselves to the law of the land. She is thunder-struck, faints recovers, and refuses. The Prophet damns her if she rejects. She thinks of the great sacrifice and of the many thousand miles she has traveled over sea and land, that she might save her soul from pending ruin, and replies, God's will be done and not mine. The Prophet and his devotees in this way are gratified."
---Nauvoo Expositor, June 7, 1844.
@@randyjordan5521 The reality is the Prophet Joseph Smith did not introduce the doctrine of Polygamy, he never taught it, he never lived it. He only excommunicated those who lived it and taught it. That is why he was murdered. Joseph taught D&C 42:22-26 and D&C 49: 15-17 and former section 101 of 1835 (Three Witnesses to this Truth). According to Emma, the Prophet's wife, Joseph never received D&C 132 revelation. So who wrote D&C 132? It was under Brigham Young's administration and contrary to God's eternal pattern.
@@kencard777 These Joseph Smith polygamy deniers whom I've conversed with cite Joseph's and Hyrum's repeated denials of the practice as evidence that they were innocent. I've attempted to inform them that it was standard operating procedure for Smith and his polygamy initiates to deny it. Here are a few quotes I've compiled which document their deceitfulness:
"Lying for the Lord" began under Joseph Smith's leadership:
"Fabricated stories designed to protect the [Nauvoo polygamous] individuals are seen elsewhere. Sidney Rigdon in the 18 June 1845 'Messenger and Advocate' reported that Parley P. Pratt, in speaking of the means by which church leaders should sustain Smith, advised that 'we must lie to protect brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.' Not only were church leaders willing to violate the law to promote polygamy, they did not hesitate to blacken the character of individuals who threatened to expose the secret practice of plural marriage. Sarah Pratt was not the only woman to suffer from this policy. The 27 August 1842 'Wasp,' for example, branded Martha H. Brotherton a 'mean harlot,' and Nancy Rigdon suffered the same treatment after she opposed Smith's polygamous proposals.....Jane Law, wife of Smith's counselor William Law, was also blacklisted for rejecting Smith's polyandrous proposal." ("Mormon Polygamy: A History," Richard van Wagoner, pp. 38-39.)
The satirical poem "Buckeye's Lamentation," published on February 7, 1844, detailed how Smith and his fellow polygamists denied their secret practice:
"This is the secret doctrine taught
By Joe and the red rams-
Although in public they deny-
But then ”tis all a sham.
They fear the indignation just,
Of those who have come here,
With hands thats clean and honest hearts,
To serve the Lord in fear.
"Thus, all the twelve do slyly teach,
And slyly practice, too;
And even the sage Patriarch,
Wont have untied his shoe:
For sure, ”twould be quite impolite,
If not a great disgrace,
To have a widow sister fair
Spit in a Prophet”s face!
"But Joe at snaring beats them all,
And at the rest does laugh;
For widows poor, and orphan girls,
He can ensnare with chaff,
He sets his snares around for all,-
And very seldom fails
To catch some thoughtless Partridges,
Snow-birds or Knight-ingales!"
The Nauvoo Expositor, published on June 7, 1844, referred to Smith's culture of deceit:
"Many of us have sought a reformation in the church, without a public exposition of the enormities of crimes practiced by its leaders, thinking that if they would hearken to counsel, and shew fruit meet for repentance, it would be as acceptable with God, as though they were exposed to public gaze, but our petitions were treated with contempt; and in many cases the petitioner spurned from their presence and particularly by Joseph, who would state that if he had sinned, and was guilty of the charges we would charge him with, he would not make acknowledgment, but would rather be damned; for it would detract from his dignity, and would consequently ruin and prove the overthrow of the Church."
The Expositor also detailed Joseph Smith's modus operandi in introducing young female converts from Europe to spiritual wifery, and how he swore them to secrecy:
"They are requested to meet brother Joseph, or some of the Twelve, at some insulated point, or at some particularly described place on the bank of the Mississippi, or at some room, which wears upon its front--Positively NO Admittance. The harmless, inoffensive, and unsuspecting creatures, are so devoted to the Prophet, and the cause of Jesus Christ, that they do not dream of the deep laid and fatal scheme which prostrates happiness, and renders death itself desirable; but they meet him, expecting to receive through him a blessing, and learn the will of the Lord concerning them, and what awaits the faithful follower of Joseph, the Apostle and Prophet of God, When in the stead thereof, they are told, after having been sworn in one of the most solemn manners, to never divulge what is revealed to them, with a penalty of death attached that God Almighty has revealed it to him, that she should be his (Joseph's) Spiritual wife; for it was right anciently, and God will tolerate it again: but we must keep those pleasures and blessings form the world, for until there is a change in the government, we will endanger ourselves by practicing it-but we can enjoy the blessings of Jacob, David, and others, as well as to be deprived of them, if we do not expose ourselves to the law of the land. She is thunder-struck, faints recovers, and refuses. The Prophet damns her if she rejects. She thinks of the great sacrifice and of the many thousand miles she has traveled over sea and land, that she might save her soul from pending ruin, and replies, God's will be done and not mine. The Prophet and his devotees in this way are gratified. The next step to avoid public exposition from the common course of things, they are sent away for a time, until all is well; after which they return, as from a long visit."
Shortly before Joseph Smith's death, his former aide Joseph H. Jackson published an account of his 20 months working closely with Smith. He also related how Smith introduced women into polygamy, and if any of them objected, he would set his minions out to destroy their reputations:
"As I have mentioned the subject of spiritual wives, I will in this place, give the reader some idea of the system. The doctrine is called the "spirit of Elijah," and is kept a profound secret from the people at large, and is only permitted to be known to those, to whom it is given to know the "fullness of the kingdom," in other words, the choice spirits who surround Joe, and aid in carrying his secret measures...Joe had in his employ certain old women, called "Mothers in Israel," such as Mrs. Tailor, old Madam Durfee, and old Madam Sessions, in whom the people have great confidence, but in fact, they are the most depraved hypocrits on Earth. If Joe wishes to make a spiritual wife of a certain young lady, he would send one of these women to her. The old women, would tell the young lady, that she had had a vision, in which it was revealed to her that she was to be sealed up to Joe, (or his friend as the case might be) as a spiritual wife, to be his in time and eternity. This would astonish the young innocent, but scripture would soon be resorted to, to prove the correctness of the doctrine, and that it was proper in the sight of the Lord. Soon after this Joe would appear, and tell the lady that the Lord had revealed to him that Mrs. so & so, had had a vision concerning her, and had been to see her. Not suspecting any collusion the young lady would be astonished, and being strong in the faith, she could have no doubt but that Joe spoke by authority of God, He would then ply his arguments, and with the utmost sanctity speak "in the name of the Lord" and say that at such a time, and at such a place it had been revealed to him that she should be his or his friend's, in time and eternity. If she objected he would quote his scripture and his revelations, and thus by playing on her superstitious credulity, and artfully at the same time inflaming her passions he seldom failed of his object. Being once successful, he held the fear of exposure over her as a rod to prevent rebellion from his allegiance. When, as happened in the cases of Miss Martha Brotherton and Miss Nancy Rigdon, his overtures were rejected with disdain and exposure threatened he would set a hundred hell hounds on them, to destroy their reputations. This was a specimen of the mode and manner of Joe in carrying his vile measures of seduction."
On March 29, 1844, Joseph's former counselor in the church presidency, William Law, noted in his journal how Smith attacked the character and reputations of those who opposed him:
"March 29. Since my last conversation with Joseph Smith which was on the 8th Jan’y I have had not association with him, as I do not with to associate with evil doers; he has in the meantime been using all his influence to destroy me, he has employed every vile and corrupt man and woman in the city over whom he has any power to circulate veil reports as false as the author of lies, about me and my wife, but he has failed to accomplish his object, for our names yet stand fair and untarnished in the estimation of the virtuous and the good; we find the better part of the community to be our friends; they feel disgusted with Smith’s course for it has been most disgusting loathsome to the virtuous mind, lust, falsehood, injustice, and cruelty have characterized his course towards me & mine in such an unparalleled degree that the unprejudiced could not but see it, and abhor the man and his base acts."
In an 1887 interview, Law related how Smith kept his secret practices from the knowledge of his unsuspecting disciples:
“In what manner would Joseph succeed to keep you and others from knowing what was going on behind the curtain?”
“Marks, Yves, I and some others had, for a long time, no idea of the depravity that was going on. This was simply the result of a very smart system adopted by the prophet and his intimate friends like Brigham Young, Kimball and others. They first tried a man to see whether they could make a criminal tool out of him. When they felt that he would not be the stuff to make a criminal of, they kept him outside the inner circle and used him to show him up as an example of their religion, as a good, virtuous, universally respected brother.”
@@kencard777 "The reality is the Prophet Joseph Smith did not introduce the doctrine of Polygamy, he never taught it, he never lived it."
There are numerous contemporarily-published documents which make it perfectly clear that Joseph Smith originated polygamy in Mormonism. All of these citations from William Clayton's and Heber C. Kimball's journals and letters have zero relevance to the evidence which shows that Smith started it. I suggest you read these three documents:
The Nauvoo Expositor
Buckeye's Lamentation For Want Of More Wives
A Narrative of the Adventures and Experience of Joseph H. Jackson in Nauvoo
All three documents are on the internet.
It's not realistic to think you know the reality of what happened, based on opinions expressed by the Expositor and other sworn enemies of Joseph Smith. Quoting poems, and various opinions of critics is not convincing. Do some actual research and try referring to credible evidence. Just advancing the baseless narrative is not helpful.@@randyjordan5521
Michelle and Jeremy, these episodes are brilliant. They shed light on some of the darkest fruits of polygamy. This really strengthens the theological case that plural marriage is not of God.
Tell that to the church which still considers 132 Doctrine.
Wow! Thank you Michelle and Jeremy for all of your hard work! I believe that seeking the truth is so very important! I just can’t stop thinking about this scripture when I think about Polygamy and other Doctrines of men that have come into the LDS church. Ether 8:24
24 Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you; or wo be unto it, because of the blood of them who have been slain; for they cry from the dust for vengeance upon it, and also upon those who built it up.
Jeremy deserves some kind of award for this episode! Amazing research, preparation and presentation!
I'm definitely going to have to let my first view settle and rewatch it later.
Nah. Weak sauce.
Nothing in this three hour presentation negates the evidence from numerous other sources which clearly shows that Joseph Smith originated polygamy in Mormonism.
This interview was fire! The more I learn about it, the more I am convinced that we as a church have not repented and need to repent by denouncing eternal polygamy. I feel like our future is bleak, if we do not. Yes, of course there are many descendents from these polygamous marriages, including my family, but shall we constantly be cautious about other people's feelings and put away our repentance because we don't want others to get offended? Quite contrary, I believe we should elevate those who feel hurt by denouncing polygamy and bringing ourselves and them to God instead of walking on eggshells.
Well said.
Maybe if the church accepts the truth, then the leadership baton can pass from the 'gentiles' like Brigham Young to the children of Lehi (descendents of Joseph).
I shouldn't have stayed up until 1 am to finish the episode but I couldn't stop it! That was just a masterful presentation of information! I don't know how you and Jeremy have the time to do this but it is just incredible. Thank you!
Interesting...the last story confirms my thoughts on temple, can't be of God, and Even if Joseph was correct in all he taught, Brigham and others took it in the wrong direction. The church isn't what it claims to be, period.
Joseph Smith instituted the temple endowment ceremony just a few weeks after he went through the Masonic rites and became a Master Mason in 1842.
"Portions of the temple ritual resembled Masonic rites that Joseph had observed when a Nauvoo lodge was organized in March 1842 and that he may have heard about from Hyrum, a Mason from New York days. The Nauvoo endowment was first bestowed just six weeks after Joseph's induction. The similarities were marked enough for Heber Kimball to quote Joseph saying that Freemasonry "was taken from the priesthood but has become degen[e]rated. but many things are perfect."
- Richard Lyman Bushman, Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling
The fact that Smith instituted the endowment ceremony is 1842 is also supported by the similarity of its oaths to the initiation oath into the Danite paramilitary band in Missouri in 1838:
"In the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, I now promise and swear, truly,
faithfully, and without reserve, that I will serve the Lord with a perfect
heart and a willing mind, dedicating myself, wholly, and unreservedly, in my
person and effects, to the upbuilding of His kingdom on earth, according to His
revealed will. I furthermore promise and swear that I will regard THE FIRST
PRESIDENT OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS, as the SUPREME
HEAD OF THE CHURCH on earth, and OBEY HIM the same as the Supreme God, IN ALL
WRITTEN REVELATIONS given under the solemnities of a 'Thus saith the Lord,' and
that I WILL ALWAYS UPHOLD THE PRESIDENCY, RIGHT OR WRONG. I furthermore
promise and swear that I will never touch a daughter of Adam, unless she is
given me of the Lord. I furthermore swear that no Gentile shall ever be
admitted to the secrets of this HOLY INSTITUTION or participate in its
blessings. I furthermore promise and swear that I will assist the Daughter of
Zion [Sons of Dan] in the utter destruction of apostates, and that I will
assist in setting up the kingdom of Daniel in these last days, by the power of
the Highest and the sword of His might. I furthermore promise and swear that I
will never communicate the secrets of this degree to any person in the known
world, except it be to a true and lawful brother, binding myself UNDER NO LESS
PENALTY THAN TO HAVE MY BLOOD SHED. So help me God and keep me faithful."
I must of been doing it all wrong... When I served my mission, I didn't date a bunch of girls and get oranges. I just preached the gospel of Jesus Christ. 😅
What? You mean you didn’t receive any foot washings on your mission? On my mission, as a sister missionary, I took “s” with all my male investigators, washed their feet at 2 AM, and gave them raisins. After I returned home, I wrote to each of them to tell them that President Hinkley said it was okay for me to marry all of them as I was their savior and they needed me to save them. So, I blessed their lives by marrying all of them within a few days of each other. It was really hard on me, but I had to consummate each marriage several times (for their sake) because I was just being obedient to the prophet and trying to raise up seed and save them. I know each one of my husbands felt special because I am devoted to each one of them. I feel so grateful that I get to bless their lives as they obey me. I can’t wait for all of us to be reunited with Pres. Hinkley some day in the heavens to thank him for this wonderful, saving doctrine, for there is no other way that a man can be saved other than to be married to me.
@unfeigned4997 haha just be careful, if someone with bigger keys comes strutting by, they can take your trophies. Its god's way.
Haha
@@unfeigned4997beat comment! Haha! When you put it that way, the whole thing is insane!
@@unfeigned4997 Without children ....there is no proof 🤣😂🤣😂
@@ejs7721 Do they still call you "dirty feet"?
This was a great episode, thanks for putting it together! I am a direct descendant of Margaret moon and William Clayton. This illustrates how completely women were trapped into polygamy. Margaret could not speak out against what William talked her into doing because of the control and influence he had over her and her family. I wish she had been able to escape and tell everyone as she threatened to. The “covenant” william talked her into was not from Joseph Smiths teachings, if it was there would have been nothing to tell everyone. William Clayton was clearly among the men Joseph Smith talked about on May 26th 1844 who were betraying him. He believed what he was taught by Brigham young and Heber c kimball on his mission. It is sad to see how quickly things went wrong because of their false teachings, and Clayton’s support of them
Thank you for this comment Kim! Amazing that you are descended from Margaret! I wish we had done a better job of pointing out explicitly that a big part of what gave him so much power over her, to make her stay, was the fact that she was pregnant. To me that makes the story even more tragic.
It's fascinating to hear from a descendant of Clayton and Margaret, but your view that Clayton's relationship with her was not from Joseph Smith's teachings is contradicted by the facts. To illustrate, I'm sure you're familiar with Clayton's journal entries in which he recorded how Joseph introduced him to plural marriage, and that he performed the sealing between him and his wife's sister. Michelle Stone, of course, believes that Clayton made up that whole story and wrote it in fine detail in his personal journal. Michelle also believes that Clayton was a closet liar, thief, adulterer, and "he had an agenda to frame Joseph" (Michelle's words.) However, an independent, contemporary source corroborates Clayton's journal entries: Joseph H. Jackson was a close aide to Joseph Smith for the last 20 months of his life, dealing with him and his other top aides on a daily basis. Shortly before Smith's death, Jackson left Nauvoo and published an expose' of his dealings with Smith, including this statement:
"This William Clayton is one of Joe's private clerks and a ready cat's paw for all manner of base work. He has lived with his wife and wife's sister in common for the last year, and has children by both of them. This is the man who Joe had set to work to lead his niece into the paths of iniquity, aiding him by feigned revelations."
So, Jackson personally knew that Clayton was very loyal and obedient to Smith, even aiding him in procuring women to induce into polygamy. Of course, there is much more contemporary documentation which proves that Smith originated polygamy, but this one deals specifically with your ancestors.
"William Clayton was clearly among the men Joseph Smith talked about on May 26th 1844 who were betraying him."
No, that's not true at all. Clayton was so loyal to Smith that Smith made him a member of his secret Council of Fifty. Clayton served as the recorder for the Council, and on April 11, 1844---ten weeks before Joseph's death---Clayton recorded the ordination of Smith as "our Prophet, Priest, and King by Hosannas."
The "traitors" whom Smith talked about in his May 26 speech were polygamy dissidents William Law, Austin Cowles, and their supporters. Law had been trying to persuade Smith to renounce and abolish polygamy ever since Joseph had allowed his brother Hyrum to introduce the revelation on celestial marriage before the Nauvoo High Council on August 12, 1843. Law was a good, Christian man who knew that if polygamy and Smith's other recent heretical doctrines (such as a plurality of Gods) were not excised, that it could bring down the church and the city of Nauvoo along with it. As an example of Law's dissension, he wrote in his journal on January 8, 1844:
"I thank God that he opened my understanding to know between truth and error, in relation to plurality & community of wives, and that I had the fortitude to tell Joseph that it was of the Devil and that he should put it down & I feel that I have opposed a base error and that the eternal God is on my side, and if I am persecuted it is because I vindicate principles of virtue and justice, not that I wish to injure any man, but I love the truth, and hate to see the virtuous destroyed and brought down into corruption and vice, and finally cast upon the world as unclean"
To further illustrate Law's frustration with Joseph, he recorded this on March 29:
"Since my last conversation with Joseph Smith which was on the 8th Jan’y I have had not association with him, as I do not with to associate with evil doers; he has in the meantime been using all his influence to destroy me, he has employed every vile and corrupt man and woman in the city over whom he has any power to circulate veil reports as false as the author of lies, about me and my wife, but he has failed to accomplish his object, for our names yet stand fair and untarnished in the estimation of the virtuous and the food; we find the better part of the community to be our friends; they feel disgusted with Smith’s course for it has been most disgusting lothsome to the virtuous mind, lust, falsehood, injustice, and cruelty have characterized his course wotwards me & mine in such an unparalleled degree that the unprejudiced could not but see it, and abhor the man and his base acts.
"Hyrum smith was here a few days ago. He beg’d for peace; we told him of the corrupt operation which had been practiced upon us; he could not deny it, but said he was sorry as we had always been good friends to him and Joseph and had done much good for the church &c &c. I told him I was ready for an investigation before the Conference, and that I would bring their abominations to light; he said there would not be an investigation before [the] Conference, that they wanted peace. I told him then to cease their abominations, for they were from hell & that I knew it. He said they were not doing anything in the plurality of wife business now, and that he had published a piece against it; when I came to examine the piece refered to I found that it amounted to this, that no one should preach or practice such things unless by revelation (of course through Hyrum or Joseph). I told Hyrum that we stood on the defensive, we would defend the truth, we would defend ourselves both in character and in person."
Rather than admitting that polygamy was wrong and abolishing it, Smith haughtily continued to deny teaching or practicing it. So Law responded by filing legal charges of living with Maria Lawrence "in an open state of adultery" on May 23. Smith's speech in which he denied practicing polygamy and denounced traitors three days later was in response to Law's charges. Remember, that was the same speech wherein Smith said "What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one." He was responding directly to Law's charges.
Joseph's haughty denial bade Law & Co. to publish the Nauvoo Expositor, which detailed Joseph's secret polygamy practice. Joseph responded by ordering their printing press destroyed, and that unwise act led directly to his and Hyrum's deaths 17 days later.
I tell you these facts to let you know that your ancestor William Clayton was extremely loyal to Joseph, and was definitely not one of the people whom Joseph denounced in his May 26 speech.
@@randyjordan5521
Joseph Smith himself clearly stated william Law and Joseph Jackson were completely untrustworthy. Why are you siding with his enemies?
Joseph Smith discourse from May 26th 1844.
This is Joseph Smiths last testimony, speach clarifying his views on polygamy
From May 26th 1844:
“God knows then the charges against me are false- I had not been married 〈scarcely〉 5 min. and made one proclamation 〈of the gospel〉 before it was reported that I had 7 wives. I mean to live 〈and proclaim the truth〉as long as I can.- This new holy prophet 〈(William Law)〉has gone to Carthage and swore that I had told him that I was guilty [p. 5] of adultery,- this Spiritual wifeism-why a man dares not speak, or wink, for fear of being accused of this.”
“William Law testified before Police〈men〉, and a whole number 〈the assembly room full〉of witnesses, that he testified under oath, that he never 〈had〉 heard, or seen, or knew any thing 〈immoral or〉criminal against me. He testified under oath that he was my friend, and not the Brutus”
There was a cogitation who was the Brutus.- I had not prophesied against William Law. He swore, under oath, that he was satisfied, that he was ready to lay down his life for me; and now he swears that I have committed adultery- I wish the Grand Jury would tell me who they are- whether it will be a curse or blessing to me.- I am quite tired of the fools asking me.- A man asked me whether the commandment was given that a man may have seven wives; and now the new prophet has charged me with Adultery.
“I never had any fuss 〈with these men〉until that Female Relief Society brought out the paper against adulterers and adulteresses- Dr [William] Goforth was invited into the Laws’ clique- and Dr Foster and the clique were dissatisfied with that document- and they rush away 〈and leave the church, and conspire> to take away my life; and because I will not countenance such [p. [6]] wickedness 〈they proclaim that I have been a true prophet, but that〉 I am now a fallen prophet.”
Jackson has committed murder, robbery, 〈&〉perjury, and I can prove it by half a dozen witnesses Jackson got up, and said ‘By God he is innocent;’ and now swears that I am guilty- he threatened my life. There is another Law, not the prophet, who was cashiered for dishonesty and robbing the government. Wilson Law also swears that I told him I was guilty of adultery. Brother 〈Jonathan> Dunham can swear to the contrary. I have been chained-
“I have rattled chains before- 〈in a dungeon for the truth’s sake.〉I am innocent of all these charges, and you can bear witness 〈of my innocence; for you know me yourselves.〉”
“When I love the poor- I ask no favors of the rich- I can go to the cross, I can lay down my life, but don’t forsake me. I want the friendship of my brethren- let us teach the things of Jesus Christ- pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a downfall-be 52 meek and low〈ly,〉upright and pure; render good for evil- if you bring on yourselves your own destruction, I will complain- It is not right for a man to bear down his neck to the oppressor always. Be humble, 〈&〉 patient in all circumstances of life. He shall then triumph more gloriously-
“What a thing it is for a man to 〈be accused of〉commiting [p. [7]] adultery and have〈ing〉 seven wives, when I can only find one
I am the same man, and as innocent as I was 14 years ago, and I can prove them all perjurers.”
“I labored with them, 〈these apostates myself until I was out of 〈all manner of〉 patience,〉 and then I sent my brother, 〈Hyrum〉 when whom they virtually kicked him out of doors. I then sent Mr Backenstos when they declared that they were my enemies. I told Mr Backenstos when they declared that he might tell Mr 〈the〉
Laws if they had any cause against me I would go before the the Church and confess it to the world. He was summoned time and again, but he refused 〈to come.> Dr. [John M.] Bernhisel and Elder [Sidney] Rigdon know that I speak the truth.- I cite you to Captain Dunham, 〈Esquires〉 Johnson, 〈&〉 Wells 〈bror〉 Hatfield and others for the truth of what I have said. “
“I have said this to let my friends know that I am right- As I grow older, my heart grows tenderer for you. I will 〈am at all times willing to〉 give up every thing that I am wanted 〈to〉, in order that you may 〈is wrong for I wish this people to〉have a virtuous leader- I have set your minds at liberty by letting you know the things of Jesus Christ Jesus”
@@kimbrown9451 Preach it, Joseph!
Ive been looking forward to this :) I find it ironic that Hales calls you guys amateurs, he is not a professional historian.
Of course he's an historian - just like Fauci is a virologist - they both fairly and dispassionately weigh both sides of the issues, and ensure complete freedom of thought and discussion...
Hales' productions mirror the research of numerous Mormon historians beginning in the 1880s when church historian Andrew Jenson set out to compile a list of Joseph Smith's plural wives. He listed 27. In the 1940s, Fawn Brodie's research produced 48 possible wives. In 1997, Todd Compton's book "In Sacred Loneliness" winnowed the number down to 33, because he only included those for which exists multiple documentation.
Brian Hales has published very little info that wasn't already researched and known about since Brodie pored through church archives 80 years ago. Hales simply compiled the info in such a way as to document plural marriages alone.
The pro-polygamists lean almost solely on accusations. You guys pull out the background facts.
Amazing work, thanks for the tireless effort!
Nothing in this three hour presentation negates the evidence from numerous other sources which clearly shows that Joseph Smith originated polygamy in Mormonism.
Excellent interview! Stayed with you from start to finish in one go; was riveting!! Thank you, and I'm looking forward to part 2❤
Wow! This was amazingly well done. I have been looking forward to this since you announced it was coming. I am so grateful for your work and I love Jeremy’s contributions! Thank you both so much!!
Here is the sad reality, these are not dreams, they are the foolish imaginations of their hearts, the lustful desires played out in their minds as daydreams. They are trying to imagine a way to make such things happen, and how to get around the marriages that exist. Going down such a road not only breaks the commandment to not commit adultery, but it makes one covet his neighbor's wife and most scenario's require a person to covet their neighbor's life: i.e. they imagine the death of the neighbor so they can swoop in and be with the new widow. These are daydreams, or the foolish imaginations of the heart the place where sin is conceived.
Exactly!
Thank you for this wonderful presentation. This should be required viewing for all members of the church.
The LDS apologists take care of everyone in church history except for Joseph.
Omg! So right
The ex-mormons as well could be added here. Just look at where they attack. Always Joseph.
They have to keep the line of priesthood authority in tact. It’s imperative to the official narrative of the SLC based Brighamite Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. If Brigham did what is being suggested by denouncing Josephs polygamy then the current LDS church has a link missing in their authority. Michelle and Jeremy how do you reconcile this? Honest question and not an attack:)
@@Sayheybrother8 My opinion is that the 12 did have authority as a group under the priesthood of the first Presidency. Yet they did not have the higher keys of presidency that Joseph and Hyrum held. Joseph had said that if anything happened to him and Hyrum that his keys were to go to Samuel Smith. So the conspirators killed Samuel as well. The 12 were traveling elders with no right to set up stakes or preside as first presidency, etc. There is a reason there are no more revelations and visitations since there murder of Hyrum and Joseph.
Yet the 12 could not have gotten the prophetic keys as they died with the Smiths and they did not pass them on to anyone. I still do believe that the rights to lesser priesthood continued but are only to be handled based on righteousness. Like Alma when he repented after escaping King Noah still had the keys but could not use them as he had turned righteous. It is sure complicated.
@@FleeingBabylon-Now interesting. Thanks for the response.
Michelle & Jeremy, this episode was fantastic. The hours flew by. Thank you for all of the hard work behind the scenes to bring this content to light.
Is a shame the church has now announced “the completion” of the joseph smith papers - yet we don’t have the full record of Clayton’s journal. Why is that?
Well, one can only assume. Maybe, just maybe, things aren't as they seem to appear.
@@morjulies I predict the next CES letter will be in an decade when the retracted portions of the Joseph Smith Papers are revealed.
@@Sayheybrother8 I sure hope it doesn't take so long.
@@morjulies it makes no sense to hide the information. As a matter of historical record, even if the things written in it go against a particular narrative, it is still something to be transparent with. The diary could say all sorts of things, in the end it is only one persons opinion and writing. It just isn’t a smart move to wait when it will come out eventually, no doubt.
There is already enough of Clayton's journal entries as well as many other contemporary documents published to prove that Joseph Smith originated polygamy in Mormonism.
That was excellent. HOW can Hales and company dismiss this? How can he call what you do amateur work? If you put all of Jeremy's work, your podcasts, Whitney's work, and everyone else's work together it would far exceed the three volumes Hales cobbled together. If it wasn't apparent before, you and everyone else in this movement should abandon responding to the critics. There is enough information now that to believe that spiritual wifery and polygamy were born of Joseph would require you to be mentally ill.
Exactly !!!!
Being the most verbose does not make one the winner. The evidence that Joe was a polygamist is far more compelling.
@@lrsvalentine It is not about winning, it is about getting to the facts. This drives the exmos crazy since they do not deal with facts.
Nope. They deal far better in facts than those trying rescue Joe the conman at any cost.
@@lrsvalentine They just cherry pick what they want and ignore the rest. That is not how you get to the facts.
According to the history of my Swedish g-g-grand parents, my grandfather said he never would have committed to the things in the endowment had he fully understood the English language.
He also said that in order to get to the next, or terrestrial degree in the temple, he had to take a second wife. I'm curious to know if there is anything historically that could verify this?
He never did take a second wife (even though he tried at least twice), because of his courageous, virtuous and educated wife (who had studied the book of Mormon, specifically Jacob 2). He was humble enough to listen to her which propelled him to deeply study the scriptures.
He must have been found out by the leaders of the church because he was later publically excommunicated. Although not in detail, the history states that the persecution they faced would have filled volumes if they were to tell what happened to them.
Is my understanding that it was commonly taught that at least three wives were needed for exaltation in the celestial Kingdom.
I'm sure there was a lot of variety in the teachings, but that was definitely a common one.
@@MichelleBStone Yes! I actually think I remember reading about this specific teaching in the book, A Mormon Mother by Annie Clark Tanner.
This man needs to be the official church historian.. other men have failed in their whole life time to do what this man has done.. amazing work.. from the both of you.. such a worthy cause…
That was your best episode so far. Excellent and very detailed so that it would be hard to get confused. Thanks to you both. You let your guest speak and added important comments. It does open a can of worms as to just how depraved these men?? were. It also makes you realize why Joseph, Hyrum and Samuel's lives were forfeit. They did not stand a chance. I always find it amazing that the apologists and exmo's love to trash Joseph. If he were heading this garbage they would not have killed him but rather held him up in their craft and called a university by his name. No Joseph was marred and it remains now for God to straighten this mess up when he sends his servant to gather other servants. I do not see this as an LDS gathering and restoration but God himself doing the great and marvelous work. I for one cannot wait though we have very very tough times ahead first.
I like your term, 'Exmo's' 😆
@@littleredhen3218 I am not sure it is mine but it works well.
" I always find it amazing that the apologists and exmo's love to trash Joseph. If he were heading this garbage they would not have killed him but rather held him up in their craft and called a university by his name."
You continue to demonstrate your cluelessness of the facts. Joseph and Hyrum were killed because Joseph ordered the destruction of the printing press which published a newspaper that exposed Joseph's secret polygamy practice. They were killed by a non-Mormon vigilante mob who were outraged over Smith's violation of the freedom of the press. Not a single Mormon, whether pro-polygamy or anti-polygamy, had anything to do with their deaths.
We "exmos" trash Joseph Smith because he was an obvious fraud, criminal, and adulterer. People like me are posting here in an effort to deprogram people like you from the falsehoods that church leaders and apologists have brainwashed you with for your entire life.
1:13:14 Of course sex wouldn't be the only problem; the only not OK behavior. I don't want my husband to have emotional closeness and alone time with another woman!
This was amazing and the best one I’ve watched next to God is Not a Polygamous.” I’m disheartened to learn the violent threats in the endowments… I did not know that at all. And now I’m feeling that endowments really are a sham or at the very least corrupted beyond recognition.
@Alicia-yn6gt Could they have grossly misinterpreted these things?
Looking back, it seems they thought marriage to the Prophet/higher authority was the Celestial goal, but didn't know it was really about each being able to remain married and connected with their families on the other side and through the eternities; and that it was lOVE that would seal them and prepare them to live a life like God's.
The Endowment is truly a gift of teaching. It teaches us a symbolic process of growth and becoming and true progression. It's a gift to help enlarge our vision of this life process.
@ I’m sure it has it value. Perhaps the ceremony is just to teach, rather than covenants or necessary for salvation. I’m still exploring it. But I agree with your thought of how love is what binds us together.
Release the Diaries, unless it blows up the carefully crafted narrative.
Oh my this is actually hilarious. No wonder why the church won’t release his so called “journals”. I don’t think they ever will. How embarrassing
A lot of Clayton's journals have been on the internet for at least 15-20 years, including the portions where he recorded the dictation of the revelation on celestial marriage and Joseph's performance of his plural marriage sealing to his wife's sister.
He wrote this stuff, about staying up until 2 AM, in the year 1840. Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet at Kirtland, Ohio, December 27 and 28, 1832, and January 3, 1833 says "retire to thy bed early, that ye may not be weary; arise early, that your bodies and your minds may be invigorated."
This is a strange comment, I don't understand the point of it
@@fotochikyo The point is that William Clayton, by staying up until 2 AM, was not following the Lord's advice from years earlier to go to bed early and get up early.
Jeremy and Michelle are encouraging us to decide whether William C. was a trustworthy person. He doesn't sound very righteous. He also wasn't cleaving to his one wife and none else.
@@amandadangerfieldpiano judging someone based on what time they go to bed sounds pretty self righteous to me
@@fotochikyo OK, just judge his actions of having his feet washed and neglecting his first wife and children, then.
@@amandadangerfieldpiano I will
2:24:00 The problem with this statement from Brigham is that if women are passed up the keychain, then Christ will be the only one to have any wives. All keys will be delivered to Him in the end. Here is the statement from the church website: "In the last days, Adam, as a resurrected being, will come again to the place called Adam-ondi-Ahman, located in northern Missouri, USA. There he will again gather with others, including many other resurrected beings. Prophets who have held priesthood keys will deliver their keys up to Adam, who was the first to hold such keys and is the father of the human family on earth. He will then deliver the keys to Jesus Christ. This will be an important event to help prepare for the Second Coming of Jesus Christ to all the world."
Watch an uncut version of Lord of the Rings or hear about William Clayton for 3 hours?! Warch this! Funny how excited I am to hear whats been dug up.
Best comment! Those are my husband's favorite movies! I'm using your comment to make him watch it!
Plus he corrected you that it's actually 13 hours total for the three movies, so now I can make him watch at least 6 of my episodes 😂
Yeah...this video is a lightweight length to watching the whole LOTR series!!
Wow! This was HUGE!
Thank you!
William Clayton penned the hymn, “Come, Come Ye Saints.” Beautiful song, always enjoyed singing it. But I always thought the chorus was a bit strange considering 2 Nephi 28:25.
Agreed. 1+2+3=6+66 verses in sec 132.
@@TheOGProtestantMormon oh man, hahahah. interesting observation.
He wrote “Come, Come Ye Saints” eh?
Hrm it appears the truth about William Clayton was staring us in the face all along!!!
In the words of Quagmire: “Giggety giggety, giggety goo”
William Clayton is the anti Joseph Smith. Joseph loved Emma, and no one else. William hated his wife (no one can ever have more than one wife) , and loved (lusted) all his concubines.
@@jrtodd-br4zcNope. At 2:35 we see Clayton's love of Joe. No way was he going rogue here. Keep worshipping a proven ephebophile.
I find this very valuable. Thank you both.
I feel like the washing of the feet from these women and in other private church ordinances is such mockery to what it really is.
Just realized this date, Joseph returned the Urum & Thumen to an angel May or June 1829 according to David Whitmer…. He did not have them in 1843!
Here's what William Clayton wrote about that:
"Hyrum very urgently requested Joseph to write the revelation by means of the Urim and Thummim, but Joseph, in reply, said he did not need to, for he knew the revelation perfectly from beginning to end."
What Hyrum was referring to was not the "two stones in silver bows, fastened to a breastplate" business. He was referring to Joseph's "seer stone" which he had obtained while working his folk-magic peepstone business in the late 1820s. The LDS church still owns the stone.
Unbelievably disgusting and sickening. I am glad that I was already down this path, otherwise I would be wondering. You two have done an incredible job of sleuthing and making connections; they can not denied. Thank you for bringing all to light. The SLC LDS church has nothing to stand on. I believe that bringing this to the forefront is part of the end times so that we can make a conscious decision to follow Christ as we should all be doing anyway and not accepting the lies and manipulations and deceptions that the SLC church is based on. With all the corruption going on around them - and people willing to follow - there is just no way that Joseph and Hyrum, pretty much single handedly, could counter it. I wouldn't be surprised if your public research will have consequences. Buckle up and keep your integrity.
These are Joseph's people. They would be on the street excommunicated without Joseph's support.
Nah. At 2:35 Williams diary shows his love for Joe. He was not out doing this on his own. Joe knew about it and was the originator.
Michelle, I have a question? Knowing what you know about Brigham, how can you still trust anything in the temple endowment now as it was tainted early on & messed up big time by polygamists.
I am still trying to get to my episode on the temple. So much to do and so many topics to cover!
@@MichelleBStoneGreat! I loved the last one on Godfathers of Polygamy and I was like, yes, yes, yes. I am watching this one now. Truth is coming forth and it matters so much. You two are incredible instruments in God's hands. Thank you for your fearlessness in truth, both you & Jeremy. You guys rock!
I have read elsewhere that "washed my feet" was a Victorian code phrase for intimate activity. Propriety substituted terms for acts that couldn't be talked about in open society. Another was the term "comfort me" which also had reference to the same intimate activity, and is the term Joseph Smith often used in letters to his many 'wives." No one in those days just came out and spoke of sex. The idea of a wife washing her husband's feet to lay claim on him in the eternities was a one-time event, not an ongoing, repeating act. This idea of women washing William Clayton's feet each time they got together is likely a veiled reference to something else...
Correct… I’ve had a great deal of Victorian literature it’s absolutely code.
Was thinking the same, and, not to be crass, but might a man want to keep record like this of his scores?
Fabulous episode! Any additional context on 1:05:19? Just that Clayton is a pathological liar? Do we know what Joseph’s secretary recorded for that day about Joseph’s activities? I would like to see the journal references to Joseph specifically addressed, if possible. Maybe it’s towards the end of the episode? I haven’t quite finished.
Jeremy Hoop is famous in our home for his appearance in "Jonah and the Great Fish" in the Liken series.... my kids all knew who he was as soon as they saw him on this interview 😆
Another amazing episode!!!
Something that really is starting to bother me is the culture in our church that we aren’t allowed to read anything that isn’t produced by the church. This narrative published by Catherine Lewis is really clear and rings true. The way the women were treated by some of these early church leaders is despicable. I’m glad the temple penalties were removed. But for 150 years people were swearing to this???! That’s really sad!
I love Jeremy Hoop so much. Jeremy Hoop if you see this comment I’m giving you a pick you up off the ground hug when I next see you. That’s a promise.
❤
@@JeremyHoop "About this time, I had a conversation with Joe, (who, it will be recollected still professed great friendship for me, doubtlessly for sinster purposes), which turned on the spiritual wife doctrine. Joe had been drinking quite freely, and I broached the subject of the rumor concerning Mrs. Milligan and Lavina. Joe would not own that he had tried his own sister, but confessed the whole matter in relation to Lavina; and said that he got Hyrum to consent to it by giving him one of his spiritual girls, whom Hyrum loved dearly, (a Miss S.) He said that he had lost Lavina by the foolishness of Clayton but, said he, 'I'll have her yet.' This William Clayton is one of Joe's private clerks and a ready cat's paw for all manner of base work. He has lived with his wife and wife's sister in common for the last year, and has children by both of them. This is the man who Joe had set to work to lead his niece into the paths of iniquity, aiding him by feigned revelations. But this innocent girl had timely warning from her aunt, who admonished her not to hearken to the foul counsels of her father and uncle, and was thus saved from the pit into which so many had fallen."
---Joseph H. Jackson, June 1844.
@@JeremyHoop Yo, Jeremy: You have obviously spent a lot of time combing through William Clayton's journals and other historical material so you can pick out items which make you believe that Clayton, Kimball, and other people besides Joseph Smith were behind polygamy. Since you enjoy poring through old journals, below are some of William Law's journal entries from 1844 in which he documents the conflict between himself and Joseph and Hyrum Smith at the time. I invite you to read this material and see if you can spot any evidence that Joseph Smith had something to do with plural marriage:
8 [January] I was passing along the street near my house, when call’d to by Joseph Smith, he said I was injuring him by telling evil of him, he could not name any one that I talked to, he said my wife was injuring him and that Wilson Law was doing so too; he could not give any authority but was very angry, and told me that I had no longer a place in the Quorum, and that he had cut me off from the first Presidency and appointed another in my place. Some unpleasant words ensued. I told him his cause was not only unjust but dishonourable, &c. &c.
I confess I feel annoyed very much by such unprecedented treatment for it is ilegal, inasmuch as I was appointed by revelation (so called) first and twice after by unanimous voice of the general Conferences, -but I feel relieved from a most embarrassing situation I cannot fellowship the abominations which I verily know are practiced by this man, concequently I am glad to be free from him, and from so vile an association-
I thank God that he opened my understanding to know between truth and error, in relation to plurality & community of wives, and that I had the fortitude to tell Joseph that it was of the Devil and that he should put it down & I feel that I have opposed a base error and that the eternal God is on my side, and if I am persecuted it is because I vindicate principles of virtue and justice, not that I wish to injure any man, but I love the truth, and hate to see the virtuous destroyed and brought down into corruption and vice, and finally cast upon the world as unclean.
March 29. Since my last conversation with Joseph Smith which was on the 8th Jan’y I have ahd not association with him, as I do not with to associate with evil doers; he has in the meantime been using all his influence to destroy me, he has employed every vile and corrupt man and woman in the city over whom he has any power to circulate veil reports as false as the author of lies, about me and my wife, but he has failed to accomplish his object, for our names yet stand fair and untarnished in the estimation of the virtuous and the food; we find the better part of the community to be our friends; they feel disgusted with Smith’s course for it has been most disgusting lothsome to the virtuous mind, lust, falsehood, injustice, and cruelty have characterized his course wotwards me & mine in such an unparalleled degree that the unprejudiced could not but see it, and abhor the man and his base acts.
Hyrum smith was here a few days ago. He beg’d for peace; we told him of the corrupt operation which had been practiced upon us; he could not deny it, but said he was sorry as we had always been good friends to him and Joseph and had done much good for the church &c &c. I told him I was ready for an investigation before the Conference, and that I would bring their abominations to light; he said there would not be an investigation before [the] Conference, that they wanted peace. I told him then to cease their abominations, for they were from hell & that I knew it. He said they were not doing anything in the plurality of wife business now, and that he had published a piece against it; when I came to examine the piece refered to I found that it amounted to this, that no one should preach or practice such things unless by revelation (of course through Hyrum or Joseph). I told Hyrum that we stood on the defensive, we would defend the truth, we would defend ourselves both in character and in person.
April 15. Conference is over, and some of the most blasphemous doctrines have been taught by J. Smith & others ever heard of. Such as a plurality of Gods, other gods as far above our God as he is above us. That he wrought out his salvation in the flesh with fear and trembling, the same as we do; that J. SMith is a god to this generation, that secret meetings are all legal and right and that the Kingdom must be set up after the manner of a Kingdom (and of course have a King) &c. &c.
It was a strange Conference, was not organised at all, and was managed in a most unprecedented manner. Hyrum Smith stated to the Conference that the Law’s were not engaged in any conspiracy as had been stated; that Jackson had said he said they were honourable men and had done a great deal for the place, that the steam mills were of great use to the city, &c. &c.
May 13. This day Sidney Rigdon came to my house and said that he came fully authorized to negotiate terms of peace. I told him to make his proposition. He said it was that if we would let all difficulties drop that we (Wilson Law, my wife Jane Law, R. D. Foster and myself[)] should be restored to our standing in the Church and to all our offices, and they would publish it in the papers. We told him that we had not been cut off from the Church legally, and therefore did not ask to be restored. He said that, he knew the proceedings were illegal and very wrong, and said they would publish that fact to the world if we won’t be satisfied. He said they wanted peace. I told him that if they wanted peace they could have it on the following conditions, That Joseph Smith would acknowledge publicly that he had taught and practised the doctrine of the plurality of wives, that he brought a revelation supporting the doctrine, and that he should own the whole system (revelation and all) to be from Hell; to acknowledge also that he had lately endeavored to seduce my wife, and had found her a virtuous woman, and that the persecution against me and my friends was unjust; if Smith and his followers will entirely cease from their abominations and fully undeceive the people as to those things, then I would agree to cease hostilities, otherwise we would publish all to the world.
June 1st.[1844] Since our Conference April 21st we have held public meetings every sabbath day; our enemies rage, and publish slander about us, but we cease not to vindicate the cause of truth, and oppose crime. To this end we have purchased a printing press and intend issuing in a few days a paper to be entitled the Nauvoo Expositor. This course has caused great alarm in the camp of our enemies; they are running to and fro, not knowing how to shield themselves; they use every means possible to destroy our influence; our lives are threatened and our steps watched by night and day.
7th [June]. This day the Nauvoo Expositor goes forth to the world, rich with facts, such expositions as make the guilty tremble and rage. 1000 sheets were struck and five hundred mailed forthwith. If the paper is suffered to continue it will set forth deeds of the most dark, cruel and damning ever perpetrated by any people under the name of religion since the world began.
@@JeremyHoop Yo Jeremy: You believe that Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, William Clayton, and other high-ranking Mormons were practicing polygamy behind Joseph Smith's back and against his teachings. You believe that Joseph Smith was totally opposed to polygamy. If your belief is correct, then why did Joseph's close associate for 14 years, Sidney Rigdon, write this after Joseph's and Hyrum's deaths?
"On Thursday evening we gave the history of Nauvoo, and the events that led to the death of the Smiths, which, of course, we traced to the introduction of the spiritual wife system; for all that know any thing about it, that it was the introduction of that system which led to the death of the Smiths, and that if that system had not been introduced, they might have been living men to-day."---March 15, 1845.
"They introduced a base system of polygamy, worse by far than that of the heathen; this system of corruption brought a train of evils with it, which terminated in their entire ruin. After this system was introduced, being in opposition [to] the laws of the land, they, had to put truth at defiance to conceal it, and in order to do it, perjury was often practiced. This system was introduced by the Smiths some time before their death, and was the thing which put them into the power of their enemies, and was the immediate cause of their death."---June, 1846.
The discourse on August 13th that upset Margaret’s mother so much was pretty simple. Joseph smith referred to the covenant in temples as being a promise to follow Jesus Christ and be sealed into the abrahamic covenant. That shouldnt have bothered her so much…unless she had been told the sealings in temples was for another purpose. Perhaps she had been told by Clayton, or Brigham young that the covenant in temples was a covenant into polygamy. She found out she had been deceived.
Fantastic! Thanks again for all your efforts.
Came back for a second listen. Such powerful content. Thank you again!
C= cocoa?
And the word of wisdom never became a commandment.
When I heard "a revelation to do something nutty" it made me think of the two evil people who were Elizabeth Smart's captors.
An amazing first look at William Clayton! The control and gaslighting of these plural wives is so sad. I looked up what it means to "take water" in England. Probably refers to taking mineral baths in hot springs together. Bath, England was a hot spot for this sort of thing. Keep up the good work! I'm anxious to read more about Catherine Lewis!
Wow! Thank you for that insight!
Any time someone speaks ill of their wife it’s 100% trouble. The man isn’t living a morally clean life. For those that claim you can speak poorly about your wife - you’re on the road of adultery or some immoral behavior. The reason William speaks so poorly about his wife is as obvious as anyone that has ever seen a soul walk down these adulterous paths.
Preach! This comment is the truth.
LOL. I take it that you know nothing about Joseph and Emma Smith's marital troubles which began when Joseph brought his side women into their house.
@@randyjordan5521 What Jospeh wrote about Emma was always loving and inspiring. He never defamed her and loved her as one should love their wife. Emma felt the same for Jospeh and helped him with wisdom and love. So yes, I do know their beautiful love story.
My guess is you’re going off rumors from both Brigham and Willam Clayton for your untruthful accusations about Joseph & Emma.
Please provide any documentation showing from Jospeh’s own pen and journals anything that would disrespect his wife.
I’ve studied this topic well over a hundred plus hours and have never found a single instance from Jospeh.
To this day, I choose to seek blessings from Jospeh’s hand and I’d suggest you look into the matter so that you might receive the same blessings:
The ends of the earth shall inquire after your name, and fools shall have you in derision, and hell shall rage against you, while the pure in heart, and the wise, and the noble, and the virtuous shall seek counsel, and authority, and blessings constantly from under your hand.
This is a major development Randy Jordan! Your assertion contradicts literally everything Joseph and Emma ever said or did publicly.
I’m assuming you’ve spoken to Emma herself about these “troubles”. What exactly did she say to you about it?!
@@mattenger7064 "What Jospeh wrote about Emma was always loving and inspiring."
Well, except maybe for this little tidbit:
D&C 132:52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.
54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.
Amazing video. I believe every single young man and woman getting ready to go to the temple and receive their endowments should first read what you revealed around the 2:50:00 mark. Devastating.
I couldn’t agree more!!!🙈
The temple endowment has since been refined and corrected.
@@unfeigned4997 isaiah 24:The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
@@Kait272 no one completely knows what the original covenants and ordinances were because Joseph Smith did not write them down. Based on historical evidence and doctrinal contradictions, it would appear that the ordinances B.Y. instated in the temple were likely flawed and inaccurate. So, there is no need for us to preserve them, as they were likely already "transgressed". Because of this, I welcome the modern-day changes that have been made regarding the temple covenants and ordinances in the last 30 years. It is my hope and assertion that those changes are a result of God trying to steer us back to what he ORIGINALLY gave to Joseph Smith. God can correct our course, if it is His will and if He still wants to work with this church and save it in the end.
@@WildPelivan This is isaiah speaking. The temple covenant is not the reason the church is under condemnation. it is failing to live up to the covenant that is written in the book of mormon that is the reason for the condemnation of the church. Take isaiah at his word or not - it is your choice.
Nearly an hour into this video and all the delusions of grandeur going on with William Clayton and all the fruits being shared with him and extra curricular "gospel missionary work" going on and I think I CLEARLY UNDERSTAND why the Church hasn't released or is now planning to possibly NEVER release William Clayton's journals. My oh my. What saucy, steamy goings on.
Wow… my jaw is on the floor..
@Michelle, Something that I think would help with future videos, especially for those who fully believe the Joseph Smith Polygamy narrative, is to really try to avoid leading with personal ideas or additions to the historical documents. I think the documents can speak for themselves and do all the exposing! but if too many personal conclusions are emphasized, I can see how someone could use that to discredit the whole JSmith is innocent narrative. It’s so hard to stay impartial with such an important topic, but I think it is what will disarm the current polygamy narrative. The documents themselves, with a little help from you, Jeremy and others connecting the dots 😊.
Joseph S., like Joseph of Egypt was betrayed by his "brothers." He became the scapegoat for their lust and jealousy, wanting his position. They both remained chaste and faithful, unlike those who betrayed them, and they all lied to cover what they did to both Josephs.
Does anyone have a timeline in a graphic format for all the historical details? I think that would be a great thing to have.
All accusations showing the date they supposedly happened and all the rebuttals and evidences to the contrary.
That would be amazing! Probably hard to carry out in reality since there are so many things that would need to be included, but I think the effort would be very worthwhile.
@@MichelleBStone I was thinking while listening to your latest today that it would need to be more interactive. Date: names or abbreviations for documents that are links. Then each link goes to the days. Might be more of a website project…
There are numerous contemporarily-published documents which make it perfectly clear that Joseph Smith originated polygamy in Mormonism. All of these citations from William Clayton's and Heber C. Kimball's journals and letters have zero relevance to the evidence which shows that Smith started it. I suggest you read these three documents:
The Nauvoo Expositor
Buckeye's Lamentation For Want Of More Wives
A Narrative of the Adventures and Experience of Joseph H. Jackson in Nauvoo
All three documents are on the internet.
@@randyjordan5521 you completely missed the point. I’m talking about everything in context. Not just the writings of those enemies who wanted him dead or those today who ignore enduring to the contrary. Let’s put it ALL together. Thanks for having an opinion though. ;)
@@WildUtahEdibles You wrote that you wanted a timeline of "all the historical details." But now you say that you only want ones which favor Joseph Smith.
The idea that William Law and his fellow publishers of the Nauvoo Expositor wanted Smith dead is false propaganda which was first voiced by Smith after Law filed legal charges against him of committing adultery and polygamy. Smith did that in order to cast himself as the victim in the situation. If you would read Law's journal entries from 1844; the text of the Nauvoo Expositor; and Law's 1887 interview, it is obvious that he was a good, Christian man who pleaded with Joseph Smith to renounce polygamy and his other recent false doctrines such as the plurality of Gods and his establishment of a theocratic/political kingdom.
Law's journal entries make it clear who was plotting to kill whom:
"June 11th. This day we learn that a combination is entered into to take away our lives (Law’s & Foster) and that the Mayor and City Council are passing an ordinance to fine in the sume of $500.00 and imprison six months any person who speaks disrespectfully of the City Charter, or any ordinance of said City, or any citizen of said City. We found that this plan was resorted to that they might by a form of law rob us of our property, and get us into their prisons to take away our lives. We therefore thought it wisdom to retire from the midst of a den of robbers, and murderers,--.
"It was is truly mortifying to be under the necessity of leaving good comfortable homes, with but a few hours to prepare, yet it was is the only course left, and so we commenced packing our goods &c.
June 12th. This day myself, my wife and children (three), Wilson Law, R. D. Foster, wife and child and two other families leave Nauvoo, on a steamboat for Burlington, Iowa. My brother and I had nine horses, three waggons & two carriages & most of our furniture, much of which could not be got up under cover, and we had rain nearly all the time going up; lay over one night on the way because of darkness."
Law also said this in his 1887 interview:
“Had you any idea that there was a sort of conspiracy to kill Joseph in jail?”
“No. I had no idea, no idea. I had been ruined by that man; all my property was gone; all my dearest illusions destroyed, and through my connection with him I got a black spot on my life, which will pain me to the very last minute of my existence. But I tell you [The old gentlemen buried his head in his hands and when he removed them, his eyes were wet.] I tell you, no, if I had had any idea of any such scheme, I would have taken steps to stop it. I have always considered the killing of Joseph Smith a wrong action. It is my opinion that he deserved his fate fully, much more than thousands of men who paid the penalty of their crime to Judge Lynch-but I would have preferred that he should have been tried by court and sent to the Penitentiary.”
End quotes. You wrote that you want to see "everything in context." Law's account helps put the entire issue of Joseph Smith's polygamy practice in context. I do agree with you that it would be helpful to have a timeline showing who said or wrote what about polygamy from its beginnings.
At 2:35, we see the tender feelings William had for Joe. No way was he out there going rogue. He truly believed polygamy came from Joe. No conspiracy theory needed.
Jeremy ROCKS! And this is only part 1! BY, HCK, WC (and others) are the ultimate groomers of their generation, it would seem.
@2:54 If only those had been idle threats. Sad what so many people in Utah had to endure. And it wasn't only the women who were threatened into submission
"By the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses, every word shall be established."
William Clayton's journal is but 1 witness.
A couple of things.
2/- is two shillings, not farthings or pounds etc.
Also, because William and others served without purse or scrip, keeping a record of this law manifesting itself in the form of gifts of money, food etc is entirely understandable.
Anybody who has done a cursory study of 19th century Mormon missionary efforts knows that missionaries often boarded with recent converts.
The affidavits in the Nauvoo Expositor confirm all the important parts of D&C 132 and are contemporaneous and independent of William Clayton. So Clayton's centrality is vastly overstated in this podcast. The story of William Clayton is very enlightening, however!
I can't cover everything at once, but my episode on the expositor is coming.
There are numerous historical documents published during Joseph Smith's life, completely independent from the Expositor affidavits, from a wide variety of people, which state that Joseph Smith originated polygamy.
@@MichelleBStone "my episode on the expositor is coming."
I assume that you will include a lot of ad hominem character attacks on the publishers.
Would be interested in knowing if WC wrote at all about Margaret being pregnant before she gave birth. Seems she got pregnant right away of course they would'nt let her out of the 'covenant'!
Now all her grief and anger and sorrow makes complete sense. Yikes.
Shocking- but not really when you see the truth- that these journals are about sleeping with women- and the writing sounds like middle schoolers- rather then writing about the restoration, missionary work- etc.
Haha, "Sarah and The Sweetcakes" 😂
Sounds like they thought they were away from home and could do as they pleased...i feel this is a scandal and does not show them as christians or part of any reformed gospel...very distasteful..who were they answerable to..did joseph not hear of any of this..??
I don't think Joseph knew much about it at all. They knew he opposed this, so kept it from him (while altering the records to implicate him falsely.)
@@MichelleBStone Oh please. The guy who tried to crown himself king of the world, the Nauvoo general didn't know this was going on???? Too funny!
@@lrsvalentine What a stupid comment
@@lrsvalentine did you listen to this episode? Where did you find Joseph in Clayton's mission journal? Why do you cling to your insistence that it started with him? Why not look honestly at these guys?
@@MichelleBStoneYes I listened. Very unconvincing. Why twist the meaning in Clayton's journal until it screams? I mean one of your pieces of evidence was that Clayton didn't wax poetic about his family as Joe the conman did. Seriously, you believe Joe (King of the earth) had no clue about any of this? You believe the gates of hell prevailed against Jesus' one true church right after its restoration for the last time? Or, Joe made it up (racist scriptures, fraudulent bank, king of the earth, polygamy...). Seriously, you're worshipping a narcissist.
Is Clayton's religion all about chicks? It seems that's all he talks about.
Um that would be Joe's religion to you.
@@lrsvalentine Biden's a Catholic
LOL. According to William Clayton, Joseph Smith spoke of little other than plural marriage for the last year of his life. I suppose that a man with 33 plural wives would tend to talk about it with his private secretary quite a bit.
@@randyjordan5521 For sure!
Jeremy hoop you mention that in one of William Clayton’s journal entries he stated that he had always known or had been taught that plural marriage was of God. He was taught and converted by brigham young and Heber c kimball in England right? Im wondering if this statement in his journal could be the proof that Brigham Young and Heber C Kimball were preaching plural marriage to converts in england. This would be in contradiction to their accounts that they began the practice after learning of it from Joseph smith after their missions. They both later stated they got personal revelations about it on their missions, but if they were preaching it to clayton their story falls apart.
This was a really informative presentation. Wow, I had no idea about Clayton's background. It is really tragic that these "secret priesthood" brethren were able to wrench the Church from the path that it was on while JSJr and Hyrum were leading it (not to say it was perfect). It is sad to think what The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints could have been had things taken a brighter path. We weren't ready for it and neither was the world.
Thanks!
46:59, 48:22 Sounds like his love language is “gifts”!
LOL, I think you are right!
1:57:57 He asked and God answered. “God show me if I am wrong in taking many wives.” Next sentence: “Joseph came and sealed me to my first wife.” This isn’t hard.
Joseph's love language was "Become my spiritual wife, and I will take you straight to the celestial kingdom."
You can't beat that deal!
@@gwendolynwyne "This isn’t hard."
That's what SHE said!
@@randyjordan5521 Oof!!😂I know I lose your respect for it but we part ways at Joseph. I'm not arguing your history knowledge which runs circles around mine. But no DNA kids from all those wives made me walk back my confidence on his polygamy. Not going to condemn a man who said he didn't do it and left no physical evidence and most (every one?) of his accusers were proven...truth fudgers. These guys had some serious motive.
Michelle, I've noticed your volume appears to be much louder than the people you interview (on my end, anyway). Just an FYI. I don't know if it's a technical issue, or the byproduct of trying to get the attention of lots of children ;-)
some of her video I cant hear her guests
Michelle : Can you please link the Sarah Crooks letter to Brigham Young? Thanks
Jacob chapter 2 is arguably one of the most important chapters in ALL of scripture for the LDS to understand. One of the key words to unlock this understanding is HEARKEN. It’s used three times. It doesn’t just mean to do but to believe. Those that even believe polygamy is of God are under condemnation according to this keystone of our religion. YOU are the ones the Lord is saying don’t understand the scriptures!!! This chapter is unequivocally a BOLD declaration that polygamy is an ABOMINATION! This unbelief WILL sink this unrepentant church! Read verses 31-35, especially 33 “I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.” Any wonder why pioneer life was a kick in the crotch. The believing saints that denounced polygamy from the get-go did not suffer like the polygamists. WAKE UP ZION AND CRY UNTO THE LORD SAYING POLYGAMY IS EVIL AND JOIN TEAM JESUS!!!
Polygamy as presented by Brigham and company is utterly evil. One cannot completely denounce or discount historical scripture reference to the most holy and righteous men that ever lived who were polygamists.
Great information. I don't know how this could be condensed but I'd love to see it condensed. More people would watch these if they were under an hour long.
You don’t have to listen all at once. There is a ton of Information that has to come out and a background for it. It takes time you can’t just leave things out to be able to understand what is going on. That is the problem now. To many precious and important things are taken out
A half hour could be cut out of this presentation if you remove every instance of Jeremy Hoop saying "What's that all about?" or "Hmmm, what does that mean?" or "More on that later."
Like removing all of the "and it came to passes" in the Book of Mormon.
1:54:12, Holy cow! Talk about a smoking gun! What the hell?
Yeah does that mean joseph is a polygamist? Am I reading that right?
@@fotochikyo No it means that the other side is lying like crazy to say it. You can find guns smoking all over the place to say that Joseph was NOT a polygamist and that His accusers are liars but that is all ignored.
Michelle, God is truly using you as a sledge hammer to blow wide open the lies and deceptions we have all been laid under. This episode with Jeremy is truly what God has had in store for those who want the whole truth and nothing but the truth, to use a coined phrase. But if you had not persisted through all you have gone through we would not have this now. I believe that many of us have a part to play and as we see many emerging as you have done and stood like a warrior-ess, like a Joan of Arc, to cut through the overgrown forest to bring only the truth (roots) to be seen we can cleanse ourselves and prepare for the Lord's Coming. Right now your pieces on temples, SRA (which I know firsthand) and the truth from where polygamy stemmed, we can truly come before the Lord cleansed of the False Traditions that hold us bound under satan's power. THERE ARENT WORDS sufficient to thank Y❤U (and Jeremy) for what this podcast means to the truth seekers. One thing that is evident now is how many little (but gigantic in scope) word phrases and ideologies that started with this early group of evil men that persist today. No wonder I have felt less as a child of God and connected my being saved to my husband being saved and the sadness and use of force on my part to get him to be righteous because at a DNA level I have believed this narrative--that I can't be saved unless he is. I'm FREE and so is my husband. We can choose differently and it's okay. God will sort it all out.
❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
Where do we access Sarah Crook's letter to BY?
I've asked Jeremy for the link. I'll send him a reminder today.
@@MichelleBStone Thanks!
Please help, what exactly would the Clayton journals show us? Redaction information? Whether Clayton wrote the journal or not?
It's interesting that the 'Father in the Gospel' topic actually points out that the patriarchal/hierarchical order of the church came from Brigham Young rather than Joseph Smith. Under Joseph, each increasingly large group (or ring, like tree rings) of authority in the structure (prophet, apostles, seventies, etc) was equal to the next... in kind of an egalitarian structure to be going on with... up to and including trying to set up the whole law of consecration for everyone. (Fantastic effort, Joseph! Even if it didn't work out.) But with BY it's all top down pyramid scheme, God help the ones (women) on the bottom. Grrr.
Wonderful insights here, thank you!
I am listening while waiting for a jury. The trial is concerning slander. Since I’ve heard so much about slander in this four-day trial, slander is on my mind. I am hearing more slander than historical references.
Yes the slander of WC and BY. Yet WC's diary shows his love for JS in his own words at 2:35. No way was he going rogue here. JS practiced and sanctioned polygamy.
It's more innuendo than slander. According to Jeremy Hoop, every time William Clayton or Heber C. Kimball got their hair cut by a woman or had their feet washed by a woman or was given an orange by a woman, those are all euphemisms for "We had sex."
Could you possibly post Jeremy's PowerPoint?
@132problemsrevisitingmormo8
have you read D&C 22:3? It kind of states that the baptismal covenant is the last one "3 For it is because of your dead works that I have caused this last covenant and this church to be built up unto me, even as in days of old." Why would anyone think that the house of the lord would hold any more covenants when the lord said it himself that baptism is the last one?
Michelle and Jeremy, thank you so so much for this!!! I want the truth, no matter how ugly it is. Your research and sharing it is sacred work!❤
Here's the truth. Joe Smith was a treasure digger. When he couldn't make it at that dishonest living, he took up religion. He conned people with a fake bank. He conned people with land schemes. He conned people into thinking he could translate Egyptian. He secretly introduced polygamy. He was a pervert who married 14 year old girls. Sorry the truth hurts.
Furthermore, we talk of smoking guns. This was omitted from D&C 123. It would've followed vs. 17 but is missing. Hmmm, I wonder why Brigham & boys would leave it out. Just kidding. It's obvious. Joseph Smith in Liberty jail in 1839: "And again, I would further suggest the impropriety of the organization of bands or companies, by covenant or oaths, by penalties or secrecies, but let the time past of our experience and sufferings by the wickedness of Doctor Sampson Avard suffice and let our covenant be that of the everlasting covenant as is contained in the Holy Writ, and the things that God has revealed unto us. Pure friendship always becomes weakened the very moment you undertake to make it stronger by penal oaths and secrecy."
Thats what I call em too brigham and the boys. And that comment 🤯
@@six1nyne I think it's very fitting.
I take cookies and fruit and vegetables to all my neighbors…. No marital connections sought. Maybe Rebecca and Sarah were just kind.
Do you also spend all day every day with them, having dinner and breakfast, and wash their feet on a regular basis? 😉
@@MichelleBStone I have spent the night with neighbors frequently as I age. Three of my friends have husbands in hospice care so I’ve stayed the night to give the women rest. Had foot washing been needed, I could have done such. I’m guessing a boarding situation produces close friendships. You people seem so overly suspicious…
@@MichelleBStone I have spent the night with neighbors frequently as I age. Three of my friends have husbands in hospice care so I’ve stayed the night to give the women rest. Had foot washing been needed, I could have done such. I’m guessing a boarding situation produces close friendships. You people seem so overly suspicious…
@@halliebrown3343William was a man on an LDS mission away from his wife spending countless hours with these young single women who he admitted to lusting after and/or later married. Maybe you haven't gotten to any of those entries yet. Nobody was on hospice and they weren't friends of his wife who wasn't with him. It is weird to me that you are trying to explain this away and normalize it.
@@halliebrown3343 Will I guess you are a les(censored), now. Hey, but think of this I have washed the feet ( I swear mud, dirt, snowy grit....) off the feet of my children, nieces, and nephews think about what that makes me 😥😰😥😢 God only knows what will be said about splinter removal.
4:35 Logical fallacy here... If one thing is true the other is not..... This is a logical fallacy, as there are more than 2 options.
No hate, just pointing out where to improve
2:24:03
Wow! Unbelievable! The biggest "keys"
I’m listening to these personal accounts wondering what these men did to support themselves and their wives? We’re they engaged in a profession? How did they have the time to pursue women? We’re they paid clergy?
These early brethren (also today’s brethren) received a living allowance from the tithes of the church. Basically what the Book of Mormon describes as “Priestcraft.”
The Book of Mormon literary shows every single failure the LDS church manifests today in word and very deed.
Were oranges a delicacy, or was there a double meaning? Seems weird they kept giving him oranges, and I didn't notice other fruits, other than raisins.
I do believe oranges were a specialty fruit. They don't grow in England, so would have had to be shipped, at great expense. For example, there are many stories of how special oranges were at Christmas for those lucky enough to get one.
I agree that the Oranges could be a code.
So interesting. I'm sure it's possible. What do you think it might mean?
@@MichelleBStone It strikes me as odd that it is always oranges. Yes they were a delicacy but there were other specialty fruit too. It seems like the washing comment that there is more to it.
Either way it was a big waste of oranges! 🤣
C stands for collation. A very French way of saying breakfast.
I would enjoy listening to your guest. You are bringing on a guest for a purpose correct? I would like to hear what the guest has to say without the guest being interrupted every 30 seconds. Take notes, your commentary will be answered in the guests presentation. If something is missing, it would be prudent to interrupt. The constant interruption is overwhelming and distracting. I'd really like to hear what he has to say without constant, loud, interruptions. You make it extremely difficult to stay tuned into your videos. You have had amazing guests. Let them speak without constant interruptions please!
That was a really interesting Pod - A question that comes from all this "IS THE CHURCH TRUE"? Because everything from Brigham Young and there after falls a part! because it has no foundation!
It seems to me that that is only true if we accept the false premise that Brigham Young is the foundation of our church. If God is the foundation of our church, and if God did use Joseph Smith to bring forth the book of Mormon,, then perhaps the scriptural promises that no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing still apply, even if some of those unhallowed hands seized control.
@@MichelleBStone How does this then make it any different from what the Catholic Church claims - They had bad & corrupt Popes but they argue the same thing - that the Catholic Church is The kingdom of God by the line of authority back to Peter & t, therefore, Jesus Christ do you believe that the " Great Apostasy" as taught by the LDS church see Tamage really happen & therefore all other churches in Chrisidom are wrong & join none of them?
@@antonolder5560 It is the same, as Catholics. It is not apostasy. It is not apostasy because the current leaders are not prophets unless or until called on by god. Meanwhile they are inline or lineage, this is important as they can't be self-proclaimed. A bad leader is just that a bad leader. fyi- I don't believe Brigham was a bad leader by these standards, I think Brigham lead better than Joseph but that is a personal opinion.
@@antonolder5560 personally I'm not a big fan of the one true church doctrine in general. It's far too easy to clean that without understanding what it might actually mean. For me the infinitely more important question is am I doing what God inspires me to do each day, not what organization do I belong to. For me, God has told me to be in the LDS Church. I am thankful for that answer but I don't think it means the LDS church has all truth and other churches are lacking all truth. It seems to me the concrete approach I've believing there can only be one true church usually leads to pride and contention. I don't find God in that.
@@MichelleBStone Yes I agree with your reply as well - For me The Gospel of Jesus Christ is True & the LDS Church is adopting that approach more & more.
'um the summary is:
Polygamy was widespread for years under Joseph?
Polygamy was openly discussed under Joseph?
Women were traded like playing cards under Joseph?
Rumors were used to destroy woman's reputation under Joseph?
Dissatisfied women could not appeal to Joseph, the 12 or the Church for relief?
Women or wife swapping in the Church was normal and acceptable under Joseph? (just attend with a different wife)
The other similar stories of these practices by Joseph are supported by these writings. It is the same behavior from the same time by Joseph's missionaries, confidents, and church presidents, these being people Joseph knew.
How the presentation shows this and concludes that since Cochranites practiced communal living to include spiritual wives, polygamy, shared sexual partners, means Joseph wasn't the first, is confusing. FYI - Jacob Cochran was not the first polygamist there have been polygamists all through time.
I'm still waiting to see a single shred of actual evidence of any of this coming from Joseph. What we have is a huge library of falsified evidence from the later adherents of these practices trying desperately, despite the embarrassing lack of any hard evidence (a child for example, or if not, even a sermon, a letter, a journal entry -- that wasn't forged -- anything) to implicate Joseph to justify themselves. In addition, we have a few accusations, but again with no evidentiary support. You insist Joseph was the author of this despite these journals which reveal that these men (who just happened to become the main conspirators) were up to their eyeballs in it in England, years before any of them claimed Joseph "taught" it to them. Why does that not matter to people?
@@MichelleBStone Because the men who practiced adultery, bigamy, polygamy, spiritual wifery, open marriage, etc...( these are all sister actions) could not and did not make it official in the Church of Christ of Latter Day Saints, that was Joseph Smith the second. Those men could not as they lacked "the keys" and since multiple sources date this well within the time of Joseph being the key holder and Joseph leading the destruction of the Expositor for publishing this we know only Joseph could have done it. Joseph had no predecessor to the "keys" and Brigham was far too late. Joseph was on the wrong side of the Expositor, Joesph was under criminal charge for polygamy, not Brigham.
So your evidence is the affidavits, the newspaper, the journals, and the testimonies and they all say the same on, about, or before July 12, 1843
@@MichelleBStone Because they are trolling you with no desire to look at facts. You make a video about polygamy and they will Reel over here to Vogel you into submission. I know you have the best of intentions but they do not. Sad really.
@@whatsup3270 Joseph destroyed the Expositor not because it exposed him but because it slandered him. Had he lived he would have proven it. He explained in the city council meeting what the actual revelation was. He believed he was within his right to destroy the expositor and offered to pay for it if he was wrong. The Expositor clan wanted Joseph dead, they had been trying to get Joseph to Carthage before publishing the Expositor. There are no contemporaneous journal accounts of Joseph's involvement with polygamy. The word of people who conspired to kill or hated Joseph hardly constitutes proof.
@@freethinker1026 If Joseph was not a polygamist he would have been on the side of the Expositor, of course there would not have been an Expositor or a reformed Church if Joesph was against polygamy.
Governor Ford wrote Joseph a letter addressing these legal issues as destroying the press, that letter is a huge tell.
Just curious if you, Michelle are planning on attending Sunstone next week?
I just looked at the Sunstone website and they're still recommending unvaccinated people where masks, in 2023, absolutely disgusting.
I'm just a gigolo (gigolo) and everywhere I go (gigolo)
People know the part I'm playing (gigolo, gigolo, gigolo, gigolo, gigolo)
Paid for every dance (gigolo), selling each romance (gigolo)
Oh, what they're saying? (Gigolo, gigolo, gigolo, gigolo, gigolo)
There will come a day, and youth will pass away
What will they say about me?
When the end comes, I know those were just a gigolo's
Life goes on without me
What?
😂😂😂
I remember that song. It sure applies to W Clayton.
Ripe fruit… gave me raisins… gave me oranges….😂😂😂 This is SO great 😂😂😂 But it’s really not. Anyway, it’s better to laugh than cry.
I'm getting that these missionaries were popular with the women maybe in hopes to come to America? Did he not have any references of ministering to men?
Be sure to watch this one. It's delicious to the taste, and very desirable. 😅
Michelle do you consider BY a prophet, and if not, how do you sustain your belief that President Nelson is a prophet today?
No. He was not. Forget the Nelson narrative and remember 2 things. One, "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it", and two, "the Lord is faithful". You are setting up a man to be an idol, not that you wold ever do that, by concerning yourself with "ongoing" revelation when you can and are told you will such as with Matthew 24 (KJV). You will know the season, for example, but not the hour. That last lady was the example, "I shall ask for myself". My concern is that Michelle is opening up a wound that cannot be closed so let's close it! What does the Holy Ghost tell you? What other church will you go to? Have faith He will send you there if you ask. The Lord's work never ends and a few years of sex cult crap does not change that. That is why I do not believe in the "Great Apostasy"--a mormon dogma. It was what the Bible says--a falling away. Do not let anyone set the standard of YOUR faith in CHRIST no matter what the platform or institution. Remember who was in the Garden of Eden where God spoke to Adam and Eve--and do not think Satan can't be in the Temple--else wise, you would not have locks on the lockers in the changing room.
@@TheOGProtestantMormon bro that’s a lot of hurt coming out in one comment.
One thing - did the gates of hell prevail against Christ? No, but he did die and was resurrected. It is a type of thing with the church. They gates of hell have not prevailed upon the principal of relevation, or the rock of relevation. I feel if you interpret that scripture the way you have, we cannot discuss much fruitfully.
God bless.
Why does BY need to be "a prophet" in order for The Church to be in order and Christ's church today? The Priesthood keys were in full force among the Twelve in spite of BY. He was appointed as president of the church. Prophet, revelator and Seer have different roles. Not everyone then or now is a prophet SEERS and revelators. All three of those roles are based on righteousness and the influence of the Holy Ghost. Just because the wicked rule and the people mourn does not mean the people, who are THE Church isn't Christ's Church. The gospel of Jesus Christ is true no matter how out of line some leaders can fall. There were good righteous men in the Twelve carrying off the kingdom.
@@Heartsinmelody I think you are looking for a specific answer you already know or want to hear.
@@littleredhen3218 exactly and because of the true believing church it stands--and it is not just Mormons either--that you may not agree on.
You guys make great points and I agree however its only fair to mention they were without purse or script and dependent on whomever would help them survive. So gifts, food etc being given are a huge deal (since they need the charity to survive). This in all fairness would also make the missionaries pretty vulnerable imo. Still, the whole situations definitely shows potential for natural temptations to flourish and lead to problems. They insist because he needs the food. Too hard on him imo lol. Not excusing him just stating that they had to seek out those who would care for them...gets cold on a mission lol.