Joe, you have a remarkable talent for conveying information. I have learned so much from your video series. Thank you and please keep producing these informative videos.
Real World Experience.... Been Off Grid in desert 19 years! since 2002! 320 sq ft homestead cabin, still rough framing but lived in, occasionally with a ladyfriend... installed my original system 2005... Four 200w panels (New $175 each contractor extras), Midnite Combiner, Trace 60A Controller (Ebay so figure 80% MSRP, Cloudy Memory), 8 Flooded US Battery 6v 225 Ah Deep Cycle ($600 Near New Craiglist Purchse, 1 month on trickle), New Trace DR3624 3600W 30A ModSine Inverter/Charger (Ebay and a Hazy Memory, but i think 60%- 80%) feeding one leg of Main Service Panel on which i have two 20A circuits... on for the House, one for the 800 sq ft Primitive Corrugated Steel Shop i built around 2009. I'm under $5k all in.... Under 6k including the unpermitted Shower/Power/Shitter Structure i built 30ft from both Shop and Home I run them for everything they got!!! Cycling down mid 23V every night.... a few nights each year power might even cut out at 22.8V... BUT I GOT 10-11 YEARS OUT OF THAT FIRST SET OF BATTERIES!!! i did desulfate around 9.5 years when performance dropped and finally replaced with 8 Interstate Batteries same ratings..... they are stamped 2016 and still going strong! I can run anything and everything during the day.... Tablesaw, Air Compressors, Tile Saw, Skilsaw, it doesn't matter as long as sun is out and the tool was designed for basic 120v AC.... i just make it a point to never use any heating element from my solar.... Gas Water Heater and Kitchen Range, Wood Burning Stove for Home Heat..... No coffee makers, no curling or blow drying my hair, no microwave or toaster. My typical load is an almost full size/large apartment fridge, Laptop, 2 TVs, real stereo system, LED lighting 24hrs/day, Swamp Cooler, 24v DC Variable Speed Water Pump (no expansion tank) Shop Lights, recharging tool batteries, phones, internet router.... all the basics.... night i get a little cautious.... if i think i'll cycle air compressor more than 5 or 6 times or want to run power tools for a few hours, i'll fire up a tiny 2k watt quiet back up generator which may not handle some of those tools alone, but in its back up position with the batteries behind it, the surge power is covered whenever the tool is used and all extra power bleeds into battery bank if tool is not in use.... never run the generator more than 2 hours.... 10PM-Midnight is typically all the boost i need to make it to dawn..... Hoping to reach another 10 years with this bank!!!! i just top off water level beginning and 3/4 way through summer.... no significant evap Fall and Winter... and terminals get disassembled and sand blasted every 4-5 years. This is always the info i'm looking for, but it hard to find, so i pass it on when appropriate!
That was by far the most simple, to the point and best explanation of the differences between these battery types I have heard in a long time. Thanks !!
With technology advancing faster today than ever before. I probably would not pay the premium cost of Lithium and hope that nothing changes in the next ten years. For me, the cheapest will get me going and if a breakthrough emerges within the next 5 years I can make the switch and have gotten my money's worth already. I've seen this with computers, phones, etc and paying for longevity in electronics is seldom worth it.
Good evening to you. I must thank you for your most educational video. I have learnt/absorbed more in just one film by your superb presentation. Again, many thanks.
Well done as always. I believe your comparison of the battery types was very fair and detailed. However, it seemed like you may have emphasized the higher cost of Li without completely discussing the advantages with regard to depth of discharge capabilities and operating voltage stability. The high cost of li type batteries is primarily at the RETAIL level. I'm seeing 280AH LFP prismatic cells on Alibaba (class A) for just over $100 each. Its actually not all that difficult to build your own 48V system. Of course Li chemistry does require a full featured BMS. I would encourage anyone who has the desire and skills to consider a DIY battery build. Savings can be in the thousands depending on the size of the battery. I posted a YT video of a 48V 120AH DIY project. The home built battery, BMS & cell balancer are still working great after 2 years.
Thanks for the feedback. I had another viewer write in about this. You can take a look at this LiFePo4 battery that comes in at only $1500 for a 5kWh usable energy! th-cam.com/video/SYJ25izYSGc/w-d-xo.html
*Video idea* Modular battery back system vs a integrated battery system for a off grid living. Including the pros and the cons of utalizing each system
This is a great video, but skipped the discussion on depth of discharge and the power you will actually get out of the batteries. You will actually have more useable power from a lithium over flooded or agm with the same Ah rating. I would recommend watching Mortons on the move Don't waste your money on batteries. It's a great video with lab data on different battery chemistry's. Just wanted to throw that out there if you want to expand your battery knowledge. Btw, thanks for the great videos!
Joe, what do you think about 'Silicate Salt' Batteries? I was asking someone some questions about them recently and what their experience with them was and they said the following: "The silicates are becoming so popular that we no longer focus on lithium, as the BMS systems are too much trouble, and so are the operating temperature limits ".
Hi Eric. I don't have any personal experience with the silicate salt batteries but from what I know, they are extremely bulky and require a forklift to set into place. For that reason alone, it's a non-started for us due to installation logistics.
@@SolarSurge Oh, if it required a forklift, I'd 100% agree with you, but they were referencing these guys - www.genezenenergy.com/bolt-ultra so, they're in the same form factor as a Battle Born or similar - just not as pretty as a wall mounted Tesla Powerwall or similar. Supposedly it's a good middle of the road option between AGM's and Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries from a cost, depth of discharge, and cycle perspective with the advantage of not requiring a BMS, and the ability to charge them at much colder temperatures without damaging the batteries. Just thought they were an interesting find in my continuous research for energy independence options.
@@ericjansen9042 Very interesting. I'll have to take a closer look at these. I was thinking about the old salt-water batteries that required massive palette-sized banks.
Which one is more suitable for outdoor extreme hot weather? and would it require ventilation to cool it down? I would much appreciate making a video to discuss different weather in different regions. many thanks
In high temps, I would use flooded or AGM. The Lithium batteries can only operate in a certain temperature range. If lithium batteries get too hot, the battery management system could shut them down leaving your without power.
Edison batteries (Iron nickel) can last for over 100 years, can easy to rebuild by the home owner if needed.( probably be built by the homeowner from scratch if need be) They are a flooded type of cell that uses a base electrolyte instead of an acid based one. Being a flooded type of cell they do weigh a lot, but light weight battery is not really needed for a stationary house.
Hi Ken. Yes the Iron Edison battery has some very unique features and capabilities. We stay away from them for turnkey installation because most homeowners are not able to keep up with the care and maintenance. However, for a true off-grid DIY project, the Iron Edison battery is worth considering.
What about depth of discharge, max amp draw, and recharge rate? I think you may also have underestimated the cycle life for LiPo4 batteries. Overall great video.
Talk about shoestring budget,,, I had to move, only place that made sense was an old cowshed I was offered,, perfect for my forge and stuff, however water but no power,, got 8 small truck batteries from the old neighbour who has a truck sales yard, they put a new batteries in every truck they get in, so they were free, total spend so far 1k nz got 2 brand new 455w panels and 3I peak inverter and 60amp solar controller, luckily got a good place to place panels,, so far beginner 48v solar system is keeping the fridge cold and charging up my devices, as well as letting me use my computer without needing to run the generator, money saved from not buying gas will go to more panels,,
Useful and impactful data. Some constructive feedback...Your videos are very informative (Thank you!). Presentation 101 thoughts: Supplement your standup narrative with comparative charts, some video, some more graphics. Your audience can essentially get your message listening to a Podcast, i.e., your TH-cam delivery(ies) is 99% talk-talk.
Thank you Joe, I have a question? I'm installing a 12.4 kWH solar system & would like to know how many 36V or 48V Lithium ion batteries I need for the installation.
Regarding life cycles: Is a life cycle calculated for full discharge to full charge? What is a battery is only 50% discharged during usage, does that count as half a life cycle?
Yes, deep cycle batteries are designed to be discharged over long periods of time. On the other hand, starting batteries (like what's in our cars) are only designed to discharge for a few seconds while starting the engine.
What about ark batteries made by the Amish. What about the 12k fortress I was hoping you do break down on brand names I want to do a mega pack build With Ark Or fortress I got 3 houses 2 barns 4 sheds Rain catching system with pumps All off grid Have wind and water power as well with generators for backup
Isn't there another important factor to consider? That is, how low a battery can be discharged. Is it the case that lithium batteries can cover a wider charging range? Also, what are gel batteries in comparison to those shown? Cheers
Hi Craig and thanks for writing in. Yes, its true that lithium chemistries allow a deeper depth of discharge up to 100%. Most flooded and AGM batteries should only be discharged 50%. Gel batteries have gone out of style and have been largely been replaced by AGMs.
Joe, thank you so much for the content you give us in these videos. I work with sales of photovoltaic solar systems for homes, businesses, industrial and rural areas. However I'm looking for training for dimensioning and installing off-grid systems. Could you recommend any educational institution for this purpose in the US? Thank you very much in advance.
Hi Ademar, and thanks for writing in. Yes, for off-grid system installation training, I would recommend you reach out to Outback Power Systems for their 1-week class.
What about the actual usable capacity of these systems? The LiPOFe4 can be discharged much more deeply than the other chemistries can. The lead-acid and AGM can only be discharged to about 50% without damaging the battery, while the lithium ones can go much closer to full discharge. I would think that considering this, the functional cost of the lithium batteries would be effectively cut in half.
Yes, very good points here. The lead-acid and AGM batteries should only be discharged 50% is being used for daily cycle use. The Lithium chemistries can go down to 80-100%.
One thing I can't find on the internet is ......if my household uses 20 kilowatts after 4pm,(about35-45kwh daily)how many batteries/ power/ ratings, do I need to sustain that power requirement during the night time when I'm not used actively using solar power only. 48v 24v 12v system???
Thank you so much, the video was very helpful. Quick question! I’m moving Africa and hoping to live off grid with the BMW i3 battery 2016 to store power from the solar panel please can you advice me on how I would be able to do it.
Thanks for writing in. I'm afraid I'm not familiar using car batteries with off-grid solar. Just be sure to make sure your solar equipment voltage matches the battery. Most off-grid equipment uses 48VDC.
Perhaps, once you know the voltage of the electric vehicle battery, you could find a buck(lowering voltage) transformer to the DC range as Solar Surge mentions above. From doing this from a 24V system to 12V for my RV, I origionally bought the 24V to 12V buck transformer, and found it too weak, so I was able to find a 24V to 13.8V buck transformer, which works great. Figure out the float Voltage of a 48V system, and get a buck transformer for an electric vehicle battery to that voltage. Hope this could help. I live off-grid myself in the Mojave Desert of Southern CA, USA.
@@Tumbleweed5150 Do you live on a tiny house, house, or RV? I really like the idea of working hard for some time to save up, invest and live off the grid
Great question. The lead batteries are usually traded in to the retailer for a "core refund" when purchasing new batteries. I haven't been using lithium long enough to have to trade one in.
Me, I would use either a LiFePO4 or a Lithium Titanate battery chemistry. Both have more cycles (life span) than Lithium Ion batteries and Lithium Titanate is usable in very cold weather. And neither have the fire risk of Lithium ion batteries.
Yes, that's a cycle. The 50% refers to the depth-of-discharge (DOD). Most flooded and AGM batteries determine the cycle life based on an average 50% DOD.
On Lithium Iron Phospate batteries, such as BattleBorns, a full cycle is to 0 percent full. They have a BMS that keeps the Voltage between lows and highs to keep them from getting harmed by too low or high of Voltage. So, if they are advertising the battery at 100Ah, you can use all 100Ah in each cycle, assuming you can charge them up each day. I am thinking that if one DID use only 50 percent per day, that would nearly double the cycle life. (I could be incorrect in this)
Both lead acid and AGM modular batteries are EMP immune. As long as the battery has no solid state chips like micro-processors, then it's find to survive EMP.
Great video thank you! Quick question. Which chemistry would stand up to A Carrington event the best? I've heard of some companies that prefer lead acid for that reason alone, they state lead acid are easier to emp proof. I want emp protection and lith ion performance. Is that possible in any way?
I would defer to Joe's answer, but I would guess the only electrical to survive an EMP will be in a full Faraday cage - disconnected. Since the light shows us Coronal Mass Ejections many hours before any energetic impact, we will have some warning.
P B, thanks for the post. Always good to hear about new products. I looked up the Zoxcell website and it is VERY light on technical details. The issue with supercapacitors for solar storage is 2 fold. 1) They have lower energy per volume than Li batteries meaning that it takes more space for an equivalent number of KWh. In a stationary situation that may not be an issue if the user has the space available. 2) The bigger problem is their linear relationship of Voltage to remaining power capacity. The claim on their website that a supercapacitor is not damaged by 100% DoD cycling is technically true but unless they have a built in DC-DC converter to boost the voltage their USABLE discharge range is extremely limited. For example, at 50% discharge the supercapacitor voltage is going to be half. Meaning that a typical solar inverter with a working range of 40 to 70 Volts could use less than half the stored energy in a supercapacitor before the voltage dropped to the lvco. Regarding the DC to DC converter discussed above, that would seriously lower the overall efficiency of the system and completely wipe out any advantage of the lower internal resistance mentioned on their website. For the record, I'm not bashing supercapacitors. They are great for high amperage starting batteries especially for back up generators because they last for years. I would have been ecstatic if EESTOR, or anyone else, had been able to perfect their Barium Titanate high voltage supercapacitor, but so far its not happening.
Some of your statements on super capacitors are true. Maxwell is an example in some applications, but the use of a DC to DC converter with the Zoxcell is not needed. It is constructed in a manner that the VDC voltage range of operation is the same as a battery. The Zoxcell construction is based using 58000F graphene flat cells. The graphene cells actually have a higher density to weight. In addition, the kWh rating in temperatures of -37 to 47c is the same. What this allows is the module be used in outdoor installation, remote cell sites etc. In our industry, the lithium degradation during its limited discharge/charge cycle, cell energy loss, and risk of fire, limited current during charge/discharge, maintenance are some of the reasons why the use of the lithium is no longer considered.
@@paulbianchi7877 Thanks for the clarification. Sounds like a product that could disrupt the industry. I would be interested in trying a module on my own system. Can you share any pricing details vs. module capacity etc. Availability in the U S market. Thanks
I hope to see sodium ion batteries become more readily available soon. I have heard that the expected cost for those could come down to eventually even compete with lead acid flooded batteries when produced in high volume. The characteristics of them seem well suited for use in homes and cars. They probably won’t displace lithium ion for mobile devices but could take over in applications where the batteries are well protected. If damaged they are safer than lithium ion and less likely to catch fire but are probably more likely to be damaged enough to become inoperable from shock, bending, or impact. The cycle life and charge times may also be not quite as good as lithium ion but far better than lead acid flooded and somewhat better than AGM batteries.
Joe, you have a remarkable talent for conveying information. I have learned so much from your video series. Thank you and please keep producing these informative videos.
Awesome, thank you!
Real World Experience.... Been Off Grid in desert 19 years! since 2002! 320 sq ft homestead cabin, still rough framing but lived in, occasionally with a ladyfriend... installed my original system 2005... Four 200w panels (New $175 each contractor extras), Midnite Combiner, Trace 60A Controller (Ebay so figure 80% MSRP, Cloudy Memory), 8 Flooded US Battery 6v 225 Ah Deep Cycle ($600 Near New Craiglist Purchse, 1 month on trickle), New Trace DR3624 3600W 30A ModSine Inverter/Charger (Ebay and a Hazy Memory, but i think 60%- 80%) feeding one leg of Main Service Panel on which i have two 20A circuits... on for the House, one for the 800 sq ft Primitive Corrugated Steel Shop i built around 2009. I'm under $5k all in.... Under 6k including the unpermitted Shower/Power/Shitter Structure i built 30ft from both Shop and Home
I run them for everything they got!!! Cycling down mid 23V every night.... a few nights each year power might even cut out at 22.8V... BUT I GOT 10-11 YEARS OUT OF THAT FIRST SET OF BATTERIES!!! i did desulfate around 9.5 years when performance dropped and finally replaced with 8 Interstate Batteries same ratings..... they are stamped 2016 and still going strong!
I can run anything and everything during the day.... Tablesaw, Air Compressors, Tile Saw, Skilsaw, it doesn't matter as long as sun is out and the tool was designed for basic 120v AC.... i just make it a point to never use any heating element from my solar.... Gas Water Heater and Kitchen Range, Wood Burning Stove for Home Heat..... No coffee makers, no curling or blow drying my hair, no microwave or toaster. My typical load is an almost full size/large apartment fridge, Laptop, 2 TVs, real stereo system, LED lighting 24hrs/day, Swamp Cooler, 24v DC Variable Speed Water Pump (no expansion tank) Shop Lights, recharging tool batteries, phones, internet router.... all the basics.... night i get a little cautious.... if i think i'll cycle air compressor more than 5 or 6 times or want to run power tools for a few hours, i'll fire up a tiny 2k watt quiet back up generator which may not handle some of those tools alone, but in its back up position with the batteries behind it, the surge power is covered whenever the tool is used and all extra power bleeds into battery bank if tool is not in use.... never run the generator more than 2 hours.... 10PM-Midnight is typically all the boost i need to make it to dawn.....
Hoping to reach another 10 years with this bank!!!! i just top off water level beginning and 3/4 way through summer.... no significant evap Fall and Winter... and terminals get disassembled and sand blasted every 4-5 years. This is always the info i'm looking for, but it hard to find, so i pass it on when appropriate!
That was by far the most simple, to the point and best explanation of the differences between these battery types I have heard in a long time. Thanks !!
Great description.
I like that you give us an honest review of the low-end options of battery choice.
Good video easily explained for the lay person.
Great job Joe! Thank you for the effort and the great presentation.
With technology advancing faster today than ever before. I probably would not pay the premium cost of Lithium and hope that nothing changes in the next ten years. For me, the cheapest will get me going and if a breakthrough emerges within the next 5 years I can make the switch and have gotten my money's worth already. I've seen this with computers, phones, etc and paying for longevity in electronics is seldom worth it.
Thanks. Good info as I proceed.
Good evening to you.
I must thank you for your most educational video. I have learnt/absorbed more in just one film by your superb presentation.
Again, many thanks.
Great video Joe
Thanks for great info. clearly described.
Hands down the best video on this topic!!!!!! I'm glad I finally found this video!!! Great job, sir!!!
Outstanding presentation
I've had solar for 30 years but never heard about the exact cycle limits. Thanks!
Thank you!
Well done as always. I believe your comparison of the battery types was very fair and detailed. However, it seemed like you may have emphasized the higher cost of Li without completely discussing the advantages with regard to depth of discharge capabilities and operating voltage stability. The high cost of li type batteries is primarily at the RETAIL level. I'm seeing 280AH LFP prismatic cells on Alibaba (class A) for just over $100 each. Its actually not all that difficult to build your own 48V system. Of course Li chemistry does require a full featured BMS. I would encourage anyone who has the desire and skills to consider a DIY battery build. Savings can be in the thousands depending on the size of the battery. I posted a YT video of a 48V 120AH DIY project. The home built battery, BMS & cell balancer are still working great after 2 years.
Thanks for the feedback. I had another viewer write in about this. You can take a look at this LiFePo4 battery that comes in at only $1500 for a 5kWh usable energy! th-cam.com/video/SYJ25izYSGc/w-d-xo.html
@@SolarSurge Thanks for the link. Added that company to my list of Solar Products providers.
Right straight to the Point😁
Thank you for articulating the information so well!
Thank you for the information!
I really look forward to these videos
Nice information Sir...👍👍👍
Ty brother
I always like your videos
*Video idea* Modular battery back system vs a integrated battery system for a off grid living. Including the pros and the cons of utalizing each system
Thanks for the video idea.
Congratulations
Great info
great intro so far
This is a great video, but skipped the discussion on depth of discharge and the power you will actually get out of the batteries. You will actually have more useable power from a lithium over flooded or agm with the same Ah rating. I would recommend watching Mortons on the move Don't waste your money on batteries. It's a great video with lab data on different battery chemistry's. Just wanted to throw that out there if you want to expand your battery knowledge.
Btw, thanks for the great videos!
Great point! Flooded and AGM batteries should only be discharged 50% or less to achieve full cycle life.
Joe, what do you think about 'Silicate Salt' Batteries? I was asking someone some questions about them recently and what their experience with them was and they said the following:
"The silicates are becoming so popular that we no longer focus on lithium, as the BMS systems are too much trouble, and so are the operating temperature limits ".
Hi Eric. I don't have any personal experience with the silicate salt batteries but from what I know, they are extremely bulky and require a forklift to set into place. For that reason alone, it's a non-started for us due to installation logistics.
@@SolarSurge Oh, if it required a forklift, I'd 100% agree with you, but they were referencing these guys - www.genezenenergy.com/bolt-ultra so, they're in the same form factor as a Battle Born or similar - just not as pretty as a wall mounted Tesla Powerwall or similar. Supposedly it's a good middle of the road option between AGM's and Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries from a cost, depth of discharge, and cycle perspective with the advantage of not requiring a BMS, and the ability to charge them at much colder temperatures without damaging the batteries. Just thought they were an interesting find in my continuous research for energy independence options.
@@ericjansen9042 Very interesting. I'll have to take a closer look at these. I was thinking about the old salt-water batteries that required massive palette-sized banks.
What do u think about the mango battery
Which one is more suitable for outdoor extreme hot weather? and would it require ventilation to cool it down? I would much appreciate making a video to discuss different weather in different regions. many thanks
In high temps, I would use flooded or AGM. The Lithium batteries can only operate in a certain temperature range. If lithium batteries get too hot, the battery management system could shut them down leaving your without power.
If you can place this inside your airconditioned house (or room), there's no problems. These can go inside a house, as there is no offgassing.
Nice shirt . . .
Can I use lithium battery in my car?specially winter time-thanks in advance
Edison batteries (Iron nickel) can last for over 100 years, can easy to rebuild by the home owner if needed.( probably be built by the homeowner from scratch if need be) They are a flooded type of cell that uses a base electrolyte instead of an acid based one. Being a flooded type of cell they do weigh a lot, but light weight battery is not really needed for a stationary house.
Hi Ken. Yes the Iron Edison battery has some very unique features and capabilities. We stay away from them for turnkey installation because most homeowners are not able to keep up with the care and maintenance. However, for a true off-grid DIY project, the Iron Edison battery is worth considering.
@@SolarSurge .
Are lead acid good for off grid remote locations with frequent cycling? Thanks
What about depth of discharge, max amp draw, and recharge rate? I think you may also have underestimated the cycle life for LiPo4 batteries. Overall great video.
AGM wins for max amp draw and recharge rate. LiFePo4 wins for depth of discharge.
@@SolarSurge thank you sir
Talk about shoestring budget,,, I had to move, only place that made sense was an old cowshed I was offered,, perfect for my forge and stuff, however water but no power,, got 8 small truck batteries from the old neighbour who has a truck sales yard, they put a new batteries in every truck they get in, so they were free, total spend so far 1k nz got 2 brand new 455w panels and 3I peak inverter and 60amp solar controller, luckily got a good place to place panels,, so far beginner 48v solar system is keeping the fridge cold and charging up my devices, as well as letting me use my computer without needing to run the generator, money saved from not buying gas will go to more panels,,
If I were in search of a great PR employee, you would be the one I would be looking for. Kudos you do a excellent job.
Thanks for the compliment.
How much does it cost?
Useful and impactful data. Some constructive feedback...Your videos are very informative (Thank you!). Presentation 101 thoughts: Supplement your standup narrative with comparative charts, some video, some more graphics. Your audience can essentially get your message listening to a Podcast, i.e., your TH-cam delivery(ies) is 99% talk-talk.
OK thanks for the feedback.
Thank you Joe, I have a question? I'm installing a 12.4 kWH solar system & would like to know how many 36V or 48V Lithium ion batteries I need for the installation.
What do you think about liquid metal battery’s
What about the ventilation requirements' for the last battery?
None for the LiFePo4 battery
Regarding life cycles: Is a life cycle calculated for full discharge to full charge? What is a battery is only 50% discharged during usage, does that count as half a life cycle?
Deep cycle batteries?
Yes, deep cycle batteries are designed to be discharged over long periods of time. On the other hand, starting batteries (like what's in our cars) are only designed to discharge for a few seconds while starting the engine.
What about ark batteries made by the Amish.
What about the 12k fortress
I was hoping you do break down on brand names
I want to do a mega pack build
With Ark
Or fortress
I got 3 houses
2 barns 4 sheds
Rain catching system with pumps
All off grid
Have wind and water power as well with generators for backup
Isn't there another important factor to consider? That is, how low a battery can be discharged. Is it the case that lithium batteries can cover a wider charging range? Also, what are gel batteries in comparison to those shown? Cheers
Hi Craig and thanks for writing in. Yes, its true that lithium chemistries allow a deeper depth of discharge up to 100%. Most flooded and AGM batteries should only be discharged 50%. Gel batteries have gone out of style and have been largely been replaced by AGMs.
I wonder how much the tech and price has changed since this video was made
A lot has changed in the last year! Check out yesterday's video about the new Franklin battery: th-cam.com/video/5Qb2HIjaiVI/w-d-xo.html
Joe, thank you so much for the content you give us in these videos.
I work with sales of photovoltaic solar systems for homes, businesses, industrial and rural areas.
However I'm looking for training for dimensioning and installing off-grid systems. Could you recommend any educational institution for this purpose in the US? Thank you very much in advance.
Hi Ademar, and thanks for writing in. Yes, for off-grid system installation training, I would recommend you reach out to Outback Power Systems for their 1-week class.
@@SolarSurge Thank you so much.
What about the actual usable capacity of these systems? The LiPOFe4 can be discharged much more deeply than the other chemistries can. The lead-acid and AGM can only be discharged to about 50% without damaging the battery, while the lithium ones can go much closer to full discharge. I would think that considering this, the functional cost of the lithium batteries would be effectively cut in half.
Yes, very good points here. The lead-acid and AGM batteries should only be discharged 50% is being used for daily cycle use. The Lithium chemistries can go down to 80-100%.
One thing I can't find on the internet is ......if my household uses 20 kilowatts after 4pm,(about35-45kwh daily)how many batteries/ power/ ratings, do I need to sustain that power requirement during the night time when I'm not used actively using solar power only. 48v 24v 12v system???
Hi Casey and thanks for writing in. In this case, I would recommend 3x Tesla Powerwall's for total of 40.5kWh storage capacity.
What about lithium titonate ?
Thank you so much, the video was very helpful. Quick question! I’m moving Africa and hoping to live off grid with the BMW i3 battery 2016 to store power from the solar panel please can you advice me on how I would be able to do it.
Thanks for writing in. I'm afraid I'm not familiar using car batteries with off-grid solar. Just be sure to make sure your solar equipment voltage matches the battery. Most off-grid equipment uses 48VDC.
@@SolarSurge Thank you so much for you reply
Perhaps, once you know the voltage of the electric vehicle battery, you could find a buck(lowering voltage) transformer to the DC range as Solar Surge mentions above. From doing this from a 24V system to 12V for my RV, I origionally bought the 24V to 12V buck transformer, and found it too weak, so I was able to find a 24V to 13.8V buck transformer, which works great. Figure out the float Voltage of a 48V system, and get a buck transformer for an electric vehicle battery to that voltage. Hope this could help. I live off-grid myself in the Mojave Desert of Southern CA, USA.
@@Tumbleweed5150 Do you live on a tiny house, house, or RV? I really like the idea of working hard for some time to save up, invest and live off the grid
@@TheRobojay I live in an old RV that I traded for. It was being used as a dog house by the former owner.
Cristal agm is the best
What is the after life disposal for each battery type? I know there is infrastructure for lead batteries, how about the others?
Great question. The lead batteries are usually traded in to the retailer for a "core refund" when purchasing new batteries. I haven't been using lithium long enough to have to trade one in.
Great question ! Look up "Redwood Materials " A former Tesla employee started a company that is handling this well.
Me, I would use either a LiFePO4 or a Lithium Titanate battery chemistry. Both have more cycles (life span) than Lithium Ion batteries and Lithium Titanate is usable in very cold weather. And neither have the fire risk of Lithium ion batteries.
Hi and thanks for writing in. Do you know of any Lithium Titanate batteries available for purchase by the public?
Question on cycle life. If it goes from full charge to 50% is that counted as 1 cycle?
Yes, that's a cycle. The 50% refers to the depth-of-discharge (DOD). Most flooded and AGM batteries determine the cycle life based on an average 50% DOD.
On Lithium Iron Phospate batteries, such as BattleBorns, a full cycle is to 0 percent full. They have a BMS that keeps the Voltage between lows and highs to keep them from getting harmed by too low or high of Voltage. So, if they are advertising the battery at 100Ah, you can use all 100Ah in each cycle, assuming you can charge them up each day. I am thinking that if one DID use only 50 percent per day, that would nearly double the cycle life. (I could be incorrect in this)
Lead acid are the only ones to survive emp/solar flair right? Lead acid it is
Both lead acid and AGM modular batteries are EMP immune. As long as the battery has no solid state chips like micro-processors, then it's find to survive EMP.
Great video thank you! Quick question. Which chemistry would stand up to A Carrington event the best? I've heard of some companies that prefer lead acid for that reason alone, they state lead acid are easier to emp proof. I want emp protection and lith ion performance. Is that possible in any way?
Go with modular AGM batteries. The Lithium ion batteries have integrated computer-based battery management systems that are vulnerable to EMP.
I would defer to Joe's answer, but I would guess the only electrical to survive an EMP will be in a full Faraday cage - disconnected.
Since the light shows us Coronal Mass Ejections many hours before any energetic impact, we will have some warning.
SIMPLIPHI batteries are LFP Lithium Ferro Phosphate that is LITHIUM IRON not Lithium Ion.
You don't have to say, 'in today's video'. The video title has already communicated the point of the video.
Zoxcell super capacitors modules surpass all types of chemical based batteries.
Are these available for off-the-shelf purchase? If so, please post a link.
P B, thanks for the post. Always good to hear about new products. I looked up the Zoxcell website and it is VERY light on technical details. The issue with supercapacitors for solar storage is 2 fold. 1) They have lower energy per volume than Li batteries meaning that it takes more space for an equivalent number of KWh. In a stationary situation that may not be an issue if the user has the space available. 2) The bigger problem is their linear relationship of Voltage to remaining power capacity. The claim on their website that a supercapacitor is not damaged by 100% DoD cycling is technically true but unless they have a built in DC-DC converter to boost the voltage their USABLE discharge range is extremely limited. For example, at 50% discharge the supercapacitor voltage is going to be half. Meaning that a typical solar inverter with a working range of 40 to 70 Volts could use less than half the stored energy in a supercapacitor before the voltage dropped to the lvco. Regarding the DC to DC converter discussed above, that would seriously lower the overall efficiency of the system and completely wipe out any advantage of the lower internal resistance mentioned on their website. For the record, I'm not bashing supercapacitors. They are great for high amperage starting batteries especially for back up generators because they last for years. I would have been ecstatic if EESTOR, or anyone else, had been able to perfect their Barium Titanate high voltage supercapacitor, but so far its not happening.
Some of your statements on super capacitors are true. Maxwell is an example in some applications, but the use of a DC to DC converter with the Zoxcell is not needed. It is constructed in a manner that the VDC voltage range of operation is the same as a battery. The Zoxcell construction is based using 58000F graphene flat cells. The graphene cells actually have a higher density to weight. In addition, the kWh rating in temperatures of -37 to 47c is the same. What this allows is the module be used in outdoor installation, remote cell sites etc. In our industry, the lithium degradation during its limited discharge/charge cycle, cell energy loss, and risk of fire, limited current during charge/discharge, maintenance are some of the reasons why the use of the lithium is no longer considered.
@@paulbianchi7877 Thanks for the clarification. Sounds like a product that could disrupt the industry. I would be interested in trying a module on my own system. Can you share any pricing details vs. module capacity etc. Availability in the U S market. Thanks
$800 per Kwh
I hope to see sodium ion batteries become more readily available soon. I have heard that the expected cost for those could come down to eventually even compete with lead acid flooded batteries when produced in high volume. The characteristics of them seem well suited for use in homes and cars. They probably won’t displace lithium ion for mobile devices but could take over in applications where the batteries are well protected. If damaged they are safer than lithium ion and less likely to catch fire but are probably more likely to be damaged enough to become inoperable from shock, bending, or impact. The cycle life and charge times may also be not quite as good as lithium ion but far better than lead acid flooded and somewhat better than AGM batteries.
You didn't mention that the lithium batteries are useless in sub zero temperatures, and will be ruined
Troyan batteries the worse. Last me less than 3 years and only using them occasionally
Lead is dead.
Lead is dead. End of story.