InB4 someone else mentions Sreten over on M539 Restorations on YT for a full rebuild procedure on the S65. Torque specs and European part suppliers and everything. EDIT: commented this literally seconds before yall mentioned him. Lol
Haha when you said "you can take this apart you've done it before, but might not be able to put it back together". I am amazing at taking stuff to pieces, not so great at putting back together lol
There are OEM Oversize Pistons for the S65 … so you would just need a rebore and Alusil renew on the block. In Germany H2 Motors (also on TH-cam) does this on quite a lot of S65 Engines.
I you want the block lining it might be worth speaking to Engine Power in Coventry, they did my mini block and used to do a lot of skyline blocks for MGT
Best track build on youtube. Absolutely adore this car and seeing it used properly just makes it so much better! Looking forward to seeing back out spitting flames. Pretty impressive that engine held up to 7 years+ of hard use.
I would have been standing there looking at the motor, thinking of all the work to get the motor apart. "Lets just sell it online as is"😎 thank you for the video and i look forward to seeing what you guys end up doing. Peace✌️
I've seen this type of failure before a few times at work. In those cases its usually a calibration and/or environment issue where they sit, heat soak and then get hammered and knock their tits off because the cal cant keep up and has a wobble. But that's on turbo engines and as you say it's been fine for years, maybe as the engines worn and used a bit of oil the ecus had a bit of a wobble? or fuels gone where it wasn't supposed to (in the the ring lands) and combusted i've seen that before too. I just build them though, I'm not a cal engineer though so that's just my guess.
Find a block and then get Mahle Motorsport pistons, Schrick Cams, and Valves and Springs! seems like the most cost effective route while giving it a little bump in performance.
Had a similar failure on a built motor in my NC miata. Cracked all 4 piston crowns at the valve reliefs, seriously sucked since they were custom pistons made for the engine builder's de-stroked setup. I suspect that I had fuel starve on track due to low fuel level in the tank and the fuel gauge not reading correctly. I'd double check the fuel system for any possible issues, like maybe the injector filters could have a bit of blockage?
Evening DW. Not hearing any audible sign of detonation or pinking may be a clue. And it may not be detonation as such. What if the fuel is compromised? I think it would be worth totally draining all the fuel system, maybe into something clear, and getting the fuel professionally analysed. On the assumption its not a schoolboy mapping error or failed sensor your looking for something unusual. Water content in the cylinders raises cylinder pressure greatly due to the expansion rates when turning to steam. And since this increase in cyl pressure is not due to combustion this may explain why the failure has circumvented knock sensing. It'd be interesting to know which route the pump suppliies the rails then the injectors and does this correspond with damage? For completeness, and cos M parts are jolly expensive, checking the coolant for combustion gases might be worth doing to. Dont think so but its quick and easy to do. If the water content theory is right, maybe its the filler cap? Just possibly its being affected by a low pressure area or even being gravity fed rain. Just thinking out loud. Andy C.
whilst you're at it it's worth changing the starter motors mounting bolt and having the head inside the 'V' so you can change it out without having the drop the bell housing off.
Was flying around at Anglesey, especially passed the wife in her little grey Ibiza! Shame to see it coming apart but good to see what route you to go repair it.
Curiously, I’ve wondered about this for some time, when using a standalone on the S65, how have you done the knock control? The factory control unit is monitoring knock through each individual ignition coil hence there not being any traditional knock sensors. I would say running a high strung engine like this with no knock protection is not a wise idea. Finding a way to integrate some traditional knock sensors would be a great thing for the next engine. Love the car, can’t wait to see what’s next.
Geezus lol... those pistons were holding on for dear life 😅 If they weren't forged before, nows the time.... and you better figure out the fueling or tuning issue that was causing that prior to running her back in.... time for some E85 or straight meth it seems, depending on your compression (after the rebuild, not now obviously lol) Edit: and absolutely you can have things fly from piston bank to opposite piston bank....depends on your overlap and everything, but you'd be surprised how much moves around.... Steve Morris (big engine builder in the US) had a small screw blow off his throttle body after it snapped in half via 60lbs of boost it shouldn't have received at the body due to a gate not opening...that screw made it's way around both banks and like 3 separate pistons
Just a FYI brand new crate engines from BMW aren’t as badly priced as you would think I have just put a new S65 in my 1M track car! Good luck with the rebuild
Ive had issues with fuel quality and knock on my offroad racer, i now put a bit of lucas octane booster in with the fuel and the logs show no timing being pulled.
Tuning, but we're not sure why as the first time it happened was before the Nurburgring last year, and that map has been in the car since it was first built.
I'm not sure. It's possible that the car has just always had too much timing and it's taken this long to actually break as it's finally able to do really long sessions out on track.
You certainly don't do things by halves do you Philip! Not sure the S65 has liners does it? I thought they were coated bores but I could very well be wrong.
I mean it's hard to say since engine was bought used unopened. Maybe it was hurt a bit from poor maintenance/abuse/bad fuel etc, and after more aggressive map it slowly ate itself away. I mean that thing was on glorious limiter every gear shift:) Curious too see the verdict on it And more curious for the next move:) Cheers!
Yeah for sure. It's not fealt right for a while, but because I shortened the final drive massively this year it still fealt fast. I think it's going to be pretty quick once fixed.
I killed a built S14 a few years ago from massive detonation. Never heard a damn thing. I just checked the plugs, found them mangled, checked compression....and "oh no".
Bugger , the old curse of the S65 strikes again. As much as I hate the Clanky old LS lumps I’d tend to agree they are a better engine. S14 screamer 👌🤔 Failing that top Russian scientists aka Garage 54 have done some great engine developments I’d give them a bell 😵💫
what about a coyote swap? high revving, ridiclous tuning potential, fancy auto 10 speed box or just keep the sequential for simplicity. about similar power to the s65 in stock trim with newer versions making 460ish with alot of room to get power even na. food for thought.
@driftworks I guess its time to build the 2.0 iteration of your current s65 then which in itself is a super cool route just make it stronger and faster knowing you lol
hey guys, if you are able to keep the block, Sreten on M539Restorations did a full rebuild of one with a pretty detailed video if you guys wanted some extra tips.
Agreed. The engine has always had too much timing is the theory I'm working on. It's only in the past couple of years it's really started to be lent on, and that combined with a possible bad batch, or multiple bad batches of pump fuel could explain it. We now have our own dyno, so we'll be about to get it set up a little safer I'm sure.
Tuning and Fuel. Why it's a problem all of a sudden I'm not sure. Unless it's not a recent thing and it's been slowley eating itself over the past 7 years.
With the way this thing breathes fire, I wonder if it was so rich it was eating rings. I’ve heard it was possible but not a typical thing. Rich air fuel detonating in behind the rings would make sense here.
At least now you can replace that terrible outdated engine with something modern and powerful - the Windsor 5.0 V8! With throttle body injection they made almost 200 horsepower, and in "truck" form they only weighed somewhere near 400 kilograms! And in good news, if you tune them up to make 500 horsepower the block will literally split in two!
Could it indicate a car problem not an engine problem pr. say? Bad fuel, not enough fuel, bad intake temps? or whatever other thing that makes it detonate it self to death. gl Phil
Has anyone swapped one of those flat-plane "Apollo" 5.5 litre engines out of the new Corvette into anything yet? The factory twin-turbo variant makes what, 1000 horsepower?
Liners can be problematic. Get a new block. Since your crankshaft is good, you should be able to find a used block with bad crank easily and just rebuild that.
If you ask me, the footage of it fully lit and sideways is the way an S65 would like to go out. 😂 You did it proud
😆
InB4 someone else mentions Sreten over on M539 Restorations on YT for a full rebuild procedure on the S65. Torque specs and European part suppliers and everything.
EDIT: commented this literally seconds before yall mentioned him. Lol
😂 👍
Coming up...
Craigs hidden talent. He can smell when a non LS is dying. He's a sick man haha
😂
How that engine ran as well as it did for so long is a mystery! That fact the valves didn’t cop more damage and could still seal is crazy!
Right! I reckon I could go a and do another track day on that engine as is. Madness.
Haha when you said "you can take this apart you've done it before, but might not be able to put it back together".
I am amazing at taking stuff to pieces, not so great at putting back together lol
😆
I’m glad the mk3 PAS sorted it guys, went to a good home! Absolute bummer on the engine though
Thanks again dude. It's so completely different to the gutless Mk2 setup.
@@driftworks yep, the Mk2 setup caused me similar issues with sticky tyres on a mk2 Clio at the ring.. granted it did also have 400hp 😂😂
For an unopened road car engine to det that bad has to be tuning / sensor based issue to cause over advance of ignition. Wild.
Thats a lot of sadness. Amazed it still ran and performed the way it did for so long though!
Seeing as you're in Birmingham, time for a B58 cuzzy! 😂
Black Friday deal: 5% material removed from S65 pistons.
😂
4.4L 9000 rpm 500bhp next? You know it is the only reasonable thing to do.
No one drifts like Phil drifts❤❤
There are OEM Oversize Pistons for the S65 … so you would just need a rebore and Alusil renew on the block. In Germany H2 Motors (also on TH-cam) does this on quite a lot of S65 Engines.
Now is a perfect, and I mean PERFECT TIME.... to pivot and focus on the V10 E46 M3!!!!!!!
Haha, unfortunately not. We have full momentum on the rebuild.
I you want the block lining it might be worth speaking to Engine Power in Coventry, they did my mini block and used to do a lot of skyline blocks for MGT
I will never not enjoy DnB over a Timelapse
Best track build on youtube. Absolutely adore this car and seeing it used properly just makes it so much better! Looking forward to seeing back out spitting flames. Pretty impressive that engine held up to 7 years+ of hard use.
I would have been standing there looking at the motor, thinking of all the work to get the motor apart. "Lets just sell it online as is"😎 thank you for the video and i look forward to seeing what you guys end up doing. Peace✌️
Come on lads, lets buy some merch to help fund the best car phill owns 🤣 Very excited to see whats next for this car.
I've seen this type of failure before a few times at work. In those cases its usually a calibration and/or environment issue where they sit, heat soak and then get hammered and knock their tits off because the cal cant keep up and has a wobble. But that's on turbo engines and as you say it's been fine for years, maybe as the engines worn and used a bit of oil the ecus had a bit of a wobble? or fuels gone where it wasn't supposed to (in the the ring lands) and combusted i've seen that before too. I just build them though, I'm not a cal engineer though so that's just my guess.
Love the constant piss taking when you three are together. They make the vids most enjoyable. Carry on. My suggestion would be EVO-STICK metal epoxy.
Phil I don’t know how you do it, even your destructions are spectacular 😂
Love this car and your honesty about it
Great car , the bmw great job phill and Jay
That block would make a cool coffee table for the shop. I'm sure you've got some spare seats around the shop.
Coffee tables and unused seats don't generate profit.
Matt at Select Motorsport in Newbury is class at building these.. always has a couple for sale
Find a block and then get Mahle Motorsport pistons, Schrick Cams, and Valves and Springs! seems like the most cost effective route while giving it a little bump in performance.
Not far off the current plan. My plan is slightly more cost effective though.
@@driftworks I'm sure it will be, as it usually does.:)))))
@@driftworksyou okay? You don’t seem yourself 😂
Watch m539 restorations if you need to know how to build it 2:18
Just seen that you have mentioned it 😂
😂
Great upload .Particularly when you Three are together(The bands back together)😅. Makes us feel included. Thanks lads🤟🏻
Are you not using the closed loop knock control on the Syvecs?
Shipping on my mug and new intercooler was super fast arrived within 24 hours :D
I need to look into it, but I've never been happy with how and where the knock sensors were mounted, so that will be fixed this time around.
Love you guys ❤
Your our UK version of the DDE guys in the USA 🔥
Full send all the time
👍
Amazing it was still running while having a good thrashing 👍
It's nuts. I reckon I could have done another trackday in it.
Time for a 4.4 stroker kit!!!
Oh no, I've read about this online and I'm pretty sure the only fix is to put a V10 in instead
I love the S85, but it's not the engine for this car.
Had a similar failure on a built motor in my NC miata. Cracked all 4 piston crowns at the valve reliefs, seriously sucked since they were custom pistons made for the engine builder's de-stroked setup. I suspect that I had fuel starve on track due to low fuel level in the tank and the fuel gauge not reading correctly. I'd double check the fuel system for any possible issues, like maybe the injector filters could have a bit of blockage?
The fun of motorspot!
Evening DW. Not hearing any audible sign of detonation or pinking may be a clue. And it may not be detonation as such. What if the fuel is compromised? I think it would be worth totally draining all the fuel system, maybe into something clear, and getting the fuel professionally analysed. On the assumption its not a schoolboy mapping error or failed sensor your looking for something unusual. Water content in the cylinders raises cylinder pressure greatly due to the expansion rates when turning to steam. And since this increase in cyl pressure is not due to combustion this may explain why the failure has circumvented knock sensing. It'd be interesting to know which route the pump suppliies the rails then the injectors and does this correspond with damage? For completeness, and cos M parts are jolly expensive, checking the coolant for combustion gases might be worth doing to. Dont think so but its quick and easy to do. If the water content theory is right, maybe its the filler cap? Just possibly its being affected by a low pressure area or even being gravity fed rain. Just thinking out loud. Andy C.
whilst you're at it it's worth changing the starter motors mounting bolt and having the head inside the 'V' so you can change it out without having the drop the bell housing off.
Was flying around at Anglesey, especially passed the wife in her little grey Ibiza! Shame to see it coming apart but good to see what route you to go repair it.
Curiously, I’ve wondered about this for some time, when using a standalone on the S65, how have you done the knock control? The factory control unit is monitoring knock through each individual ignition coil hence there not being any traditional knock sensors. I would say running a high strung engine like this with no knock protection is not a wise idea. Finding a way to integrate some traditional knock sensors would be a great thing for the next engine. Love the car, can’t wait to see what’s next.
It has knock sensors, but they aren't in a very good position. We'll be fixing that with the rebuild.
Geezus lol... those pistons were holding on for dear life 😅
If they weren't forged before, nows the time.... and you better figure out the fueling or tuning issue that was causing that prior to running her back in.... time for some E85 or straight meth it seems, depending on your compression (after the rebuild, not now obviously lol)
Edit: and absolutely you can have things fly from piston bank to opposite piston bank....depends on your overlap and everything, but you'd be surprised how much moves around.... Steve Morris (big engine builder in the US) had a small screw blow off his throttle body after it snapped in half via 60lbs of boost it shouldn't have received at the body due to a gate not opening...that screw made it's way around both banks and like 3 separate pistons
Just a FYI brand new crate engines from BMW aren’t as badly priced as you would think I have just put a new S65 in my 1M track car! Good luck with the rebuild
Cheers. I'm hoping to fix it for £1,500. We'll see how well that works out 😂
Romney at PWR Motors will be able to help you out Phil 👌🏻
It’s going to be some power when you get that engine sorted
Ive had issues with fuel quality and knock on my offroad racer, i now put a bit of lucas octane booster in with the fuel and the logs show no timing being pulled.
Time for a 4.4 stroker!!!
Could you touch on more why it happened now you've had a chance to think about it?
Tuning, but we're not sure why as the first time it happened was before the Nurburgring last year, and that map has been in the car since it was first built.
Do you think it could be a sync issue between banks, slightly different ignition/injection timing on the failed side.
I'm not sure. It's possible that the car has just always had too much timing and it's taken this long to actually break as it's finally able to do really long sessions out on track.
@@driftworksI was a bit worried you hadn't realised this and were going to rebuild it and use with the same mapping 😮
Boys are on form today
Check the injector spray pattern . Blocked / bad injector could cause this , no ?
Yeah we'll be checking them. It's unlikely to be the cause, but we have to check everything.
You certainly don't do things by halves do you Philip! Not sure the S65 has liners does it? I thought they were coated bores but I could very well be wrong.
They are, but people make liners for them.
I mean it's hard to say since engine was bought used unopened. Maybe it was hurt a bit from poor maintenance/abuse/bad fuel etc, and after more aggressive map it slowly ate itself away. I mean that thing was on glorious limiter every gear shift:)
Curious too see the verdict on it
And more curious for the next move:) Cheers!
Definitely timing/fuel related, didnt the car feel sluggish like 6 months ago?
Yeah for sure. It's not fealt right for a while, but because I shortened the final drive massively this year it still fealt fast. I think it's going to be pretty quick once fixed.
Very surprised it didn’t have a catastrophic failure considering how much piston is gone! Good engine.
It's mad isn't it! I reckon I could have gone and done another trackday with it as is.
I killed a built S14 a few years ago from massive detonation. Never heard a damn thing. I just checked the plugs, found them mangled, checked compression....and "oh no".
Oh no! Yeah same, I didn't hear/feel anything weird.
I think you should stroke it, VAC Motorsport has a kit
Bugger , the old curse of the S65 strikes again. As much as I hate the Clanky old LS lumps I’d tend to agree they are a better engine.
S14 screamer 👌🤔
Failing that top Russian scientists aka Garage 54 have done some great engine developments I’d give them a bell 😵💫
what about a coyote swap? high revving, ridiclous tuning potential, fancy auto 10 speed box or just keep the sequential for simplicity. about similar power to the s65 in stock trim with newer versions making 460ish with alot of room to get power even na. food for thought.
It's a good engine, but not for this car & an Auto will never go near any of my current cars with the exception of a tow car.
@driftworks I guess its time to build the 2.0 iteration of your current s65 then which in itself is a super cool route just make it stronger and faster knowing you lol
ooof this one hurts to watch ... heading over the DW shop to contribute.
🙏
All Mpower engines have durability problems over time with the crankshaft metals and pistons with the constant high rpm.
Have you changed the fuel type used since mapping?
No, but there is a possibilty our local fuel has contributed to the problem. We've had terrible inconsistancy with pump fuel at one of the stations.
@driftworks sadly I think you are right.
Jeeze that sucks to see, was knock control implemented on the standalone? It would be worth the extra margin of safety in the future if it wasn't.
It was yeah, but the sensors were put in a terrible position. We'll be fixing that hopefully.
Interesting choice of dnb Phil :D
Given that it is a standard engine, there is either a lot of bad fuel gone through it, or very bad mapping!
I wonder what’s caused this? Limiter?
Are you running data logging? Be interesting to see knock and lambda
It's tuning, but not sure why.
You probably blew up the engine when you chased my Elise around Donny a few years back 👀
With all that damage how was it still running 😂, epic way to kill a s65 pedalling the e30 properly Phil 👏🏻
I can feel a set of Schrick cams being ordered.
Trying. No stock until Feb unfortunately.
Dyno Torque hoodie ‼️
one piston singing "hallo from the other side" to the other sides piston..
Stroker kit time!
Thought that was going to get a “Copart V” in the front of it for a minute 🤣🤣
Forged on the new unit? Omega may help on that.
hey guys, if you are able to keep the block, Sreten on M539Restorations did a full rebuild of one with a pretty detailed video if you guys wanted some extra tips.
You didn't watch the bit of the video where we were watching M539 rebuild an S65 then? 😂
Craig can you show me videos of the LT 8hp m3
Time to "slap an LS engine" in. Not as fun and exotic but yeah much cheaper?
Don’t think you’ve watched this channel long enough if you think cheap is something phil goes by 😂
@@eddiehp yea was a joke hence the quotations.
M359 be able to help out, he has a breaker e92.
It's time for an S65 stroker build!
A friend of mine probably still has a good running S65 (car got rearended). I'll ask him to contact you.
Time to overbore and stroker the engine!!
Where is the crank trigger? Flywheel?
It is, and I am wondering if when we fitted the Drenth gearbox with the new flywheel it changed the base timeing slightly.
That’s a lot of det for a n/an engine - was the crank trigger dti’d? to TDC?
Knock sensors?
No problem with base timing. It has knock sensors, but they were in a crappy position. That's being fixed for next time.
@ knock sensors are a safety net for other issues. The cause needs to be figured out.
Agreed. The engine has always had too much timing is the theory I'm working on. It's only in the past couple of years it's really started to be lent on, and that combined with a possible bad batch, or multiple bad batches of pump fuel could explain it. We now have our own dyno, so we'll be about to get it set up a little safer I'm sure.
Stay Mpower s engine 💪
Gotta be a t shirt in it for me guessing correctly in the last video!
Gutted for you, the M tax is ruining.... 😢
bro why dont you get that snap on hammer warranted haha
The question is why are you getting such bad detonation? Tuning? Fuel?
Tuning and Fuel. Why it's a problem all of a sudden I'm not sure. Unless it's not a recent thing and it's been slowley eating itself over the past 7 years.
My mates are like Jay “lets get it done” im more like phil 1% complete … time for a cup of tea
LS SWAPPPPP
With the way this thing breathes fire, I wonder if it was so rich it was eating rings. I’ve heard it was possible but not a typical thing. Rich air fuel detonating in behind the rings would make sense here.
I wouldn't have thought so. The overfueling would show as a problem with oiling not detonation.
Dayum, how has this happened? Tuning issue?
Something has happened as it's run fine on the same map for years.
Phil is the issue 😂
At least now you can replace that terrible outdated engine with something modern and powerful - the Windsor 5.0 V8! With throttle body injection they made almost 200 horsepower, and in "truck" form they only weighed somewhere near 400 kilograms! And in good news, if you tune them up to make 500 horsepower the block will literally split in two!
Remember we were talking about how this v8 are not realiable… sorry for this mate, i hope you can back soon
I don't. But this is a tuning error, not a reliabilty thing.
I agree with mr Taylor. Stick an LT4 in it. 😂
Could it indicate a car problem not an engine problem pr. say?
Bad fuel, not enough fuel, bad intake temps? or whatever other thing that makes it detonate it self to death. gl Phil
It's a tuning / fuel problem. Not sure why it's a problem all of a sudden. Perhaps it's not and it's been slowely killing itself for years.
I'm shocked how it can just eat that large pieces of piston and be reasonably okay with it!!!
OOOOF LOL S65 PAINS
Some EGT sensors would be a good shout
Deffo my go-to sensor nowadays. Unfortunately we ran out of inputs on the Syvecs a long time ago.
@ nexus PDM 👹
@@driftworks ECU master EGT to CAN unit would sort that for you. 8 EGT’s straight to the CANBus
Has anyone swapped one of those flat-plane "Apollo" 5.5 litre engines out of the new Corvette into anything yet? The factory twin-turbo variant makes what, 1000 horsepower?
It's a mad engine, but I'll be sticking with S65.
The guys at evolve have an s65 they’ve removed from their sema 1m
Stroker kit time
And the symptom was some smoke and a small loss in power...
Crazy isn't it. I reckon it would do another trackday no problem.
Liners can be problematic. Get a new block. Since your crankshaft is good, you should be able to find a used block with bad crank easily and just rebuild that.
That's exactly what you'll be seeing in the next episode. 👍
You know what that needs? LS bottom end, LS heads and everything Chevrolet to make it run... just sayin. Sad to see the damage though.