THE EVE OF BATTLE: The Opposing Air Forces In The 1973 War
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ต.ค. 2024
- Air superiority remains a fundamental element in the Israeli strategic and tactical concept. The Yom Kippur War of 1973 saw the IDF/AF face its most severe challenge. Most people instantly think about the SAM umbrella over Suez as the basis of that challenge. And it is true that the SA-6 was a brutal surprise that claimed many planes and lives.
But both Egypt and Syria had resurgent air forces at the outset of the conflict. In this video I've attempted to break down the orders of battle of Israel, Egypt and Syria in the days leading up to October 6th. My aim is to give an objective assessment of the air-to-air capabilities of both sides, their strengths and weaknesses. Hopefully I've achieved that!
Apologies if on occasion there are some 20-30 second segments with the same imagery. I found it hard to locate royalty-free video on this topic, which is a shame, but is what it is! I hope the scripting makes up somewhat.
![The Wall Song ร้องข้ามกำแพง | EP.213 | กรีน อัษฎาพร | 3 ต.ค. 67 [1/5]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/3KrlLbCsadI/mqdefault.jpg)
I’m a retired Naval Intelligence Officer. For a while I specialized in an array of Air Intelligence activities in the Navy Reserve that included duty at TOPGUN and StrikeU and during the 70’s was heavily engaged in Middle East Air Forces capabilities studies. You have done an excellent job in producing these videos . Your detailed analysis of multiple factors and conclusions are exceptional. Bravo Zulu!
Bravo Sheiss
Except the first statement when he ignored the fact that most of the Egyptian/Syrian Airforces were destroyed on the airfields.
@@DaveSCameronlol wut? 😂😂😂
The SA-6 was a huge shock to the Israelis and the west as a whole. Very effective missile system at the time.
Very effective at shooting down Egyptian aircraft.
@@ericatkinson7006Copium on a video about the Yom Kippur war against Russian stuff? That’s a new low. The West back then wasn’t dumb and knew and respected their adversaries equipment when it performed well.
@@tetraxis3011seems like the western made equipment performed better though. The Arabs lost nearly double the number of aircraft despite more SAMs, more aircraft, and the element of surprise on their side. Admittedly based off what I've heard and read the Israeli pilots were much better trained since the Israeli army has always been small so they've always focused on being more well trained and pound for pound better than their Arab enemies.
@@arthas640 You just explained why Israel did better.
The one thing where the West clearly had an edge over the USSR here was in the heat seeking missiles and Radar(Phantoms).
The USSR made up for these flaws by integrating fighters into a large tactical air defense network, but the Arabs did not have this.
@@tetraxis3011 didn't know about the integrated system. Sounds a lot like what the US did in Desert Storm.
I known I've posted this in earlier videos but I cannot say it enough; it is ridiculous how much good content this channel puts out in quantity. It has quickly joined the ranks as one of the premier military aviation channels.
This channel is steadily growing but I have no doubt in my mind that it'll pass the 100k mark in the not to distant future if the quality and quantity remains the same.
Also, I posted this comment to help placate the Gods of the Almighty Algorithm !
Can't wait for the next video.
Al.....MIGHTY algorithm? For some reason, that thought makes me wish my name was Kratos.😉
Lots of homework being applied here for sure
Great video, 99.9% of aviation history videos on TH-cam dealing with the Arab-Isralei conflict are just IDF fanboi videos. So refreshing to see a video that focuses on the Arab forces.
IDF is not an airforce.
2.26 hosny mubark was EAF commander - Aly fahmy was air defence Commander since 1968
ايه رأيكم فى الوثائقي لان بصراحه مبقتش بتفأل بأى فيديو أجنبى كلهم بيعرضو لإسرائيل وبيقولوا البروبنجدا بتاعتهم بطريقه ولا الروبوتات 😂.
Once again I am amazed at the high quality of the videos. These are mini-movies.
Israel let us use their night, low-altitude-training (LAT) ranges before we did a “port call” into Haifa. I was struck by how small the country is, smaller than many Restricted Areas we trained in in the United States. It really must have been like fighting in a phone booth.
I feel the most sorry for the Syrians. It appears their pilots really wanted to give it a go but didn’t have the missiles or guns to do it with.
I thought I knew the air war part of the Yom Kippur war, but I learned a ton from this video. This order of battle approach is extremely useful in understanding the approaches that the competing air forces talk before and during the conflict. Please keep it up.
Keep it coming. Far and away the best military aviation contributor currently operating. I am routinely humbled by how little I actually know in the jet warfare space, until your channel popped up. Cheers, watch you again soon.
I remember this war in 1973; with the passage of time, I look forward to your take on this war.
Another outstanding presentation. Thank you. Keep it up.
13:05 you refer to "Libyan MIG 5D", you mean Mirage 5D right? Sure looks like one, and then you mention that Israel had them too.
Mirage 5D was a export single-seat ground-attack aircraft of the Mirage 5 for Libya.
Love this channel
As someone who has studied the Arab Israeli peace and wars this is a great piece of work with regards the main air forces arrayed against each other at the start of the 1973 war...
Informative and professional introduction video about aviation stroke during keppor war ...How superiority of aircraft's quality ,its weapons and IDF manpower of was notable...while Both Egypt 🇪🇬 and Syria 🇸🇾 gained some successful through utilizing of anti-airdefences Sam missiles nets.. thank you for sharing
I remember as this war unfolded and the crossing of the Suez and how surprised we all were at the initial sucess of the Arab forces. Just watched your excellent prelude video, cant wait for the rest, slightly peturbed that this was 50 years ago....I remember then reading the Newsweek articles from then and listening to the barbers animated discussion about what'll happen next.. didn't expect the Oil Crisis and Sheik Yamani being the most apt name for a Saudi Oil minister...
Everyone was surprised until we learned that only about 500 Israeli soldiers were on the canal. Defense in depth.
@@Ubique2927 Yes, I guess they thought the sand berms were an adequate passive defence but Egyptian Engineers had a genius solution, many many lessons were yet to be learnt on both sides Arab and Israeli including USSR and the US. Bravery and high Attrition on both sides and a consequent logistics contest I think the US won by a sizeable margin. I remember a very different world back then, so many alignments now so different.
I have a Warhammer miniature of a mercenary paymaster called" Sheikh Yadosh" .Must be " first cousin to Sheikh Yamani"
I always believed to be well versed in the run up to this conflict, militarily, politically and intelligence services.
Up till now there's 3 substantial facts I'd never heard of, and it's only the 2nd ad break.
Excellent work. Very underated and underviewed channel.
Thanks again for a great video. The Osprey title "Arab MiG-19 & MiG-21 Units in Combat" makes for fascinating reading. The Arab pilots were not as incompetent as supposed and if they had had a decent AAM, Israeli casualties would have been a lot higher. As it was, they did well given their handicaps. The conventional wisdom is that the various arab air forces were hapless targets for the ten-foot-tall IAF warriors but the fact that the U.S. had to strip F-4s from active USAF units to send to Israel (some even still in USAF markings!) says a lot. Granted, a lot of those IAF losses were from the new SA-6 that came as a nasty shock, but the MiG-21 pilots gave a decent account of themselves. Even the MiG-19 might have been a good platform if the EAF hadn't decided they were worthless for the role because by most accounts it was a good dogfighter in the right hands. I still hope you do a video on Operation Rimon 20 if you can find enough source material.
@@generalspeccles730oi ney!...
Excellent channel. Love your work
This is a really good vid. It's well researched, informative, and balanced.
To my knowledge, the MiG-25s stationed in Egypt were either R or RB models, i.e. reconnaissance versions. The use of the latter as a conventional bomber, while possible, would be questionable in effectiveness.
IIRC you are right, no MiG-25P's are known to had been deployed.
the MiG-25RB was designed to be a bomber though and it had a automatic bombing system as well as a hefty payload of 8(10) FAB-500 1100lb bombs, 2 on each wing and 4 on belly pylons later upgraded to 6 on the belly
Why did the Egyptians have such a large number of their most capable fighters like the MIG-21 and MIG-25 in storage? Was there a reason why the Soviets would have the MIG-25's in storage in Egypt? Seems odd to me to ship those over but then not have them operational?
The Mig-25R was sent to Egypt by the Soviets to conduct Recon overflights over Israel and was always operated by Soviet crews who NEVER allowed the Egyptians to get near these machines. Relations between Moscow and Cairo fluctuated greatly and if Mig-25's were in storage, it will be because Soviet crews had been withdrawn at a time when the two powers were not talking to each other. These recon Migs were of course never armed and cannot be counted in a fighting machine order of battle.
@@philipmaxwell4433 But why not withdraw them to the Soviet Union then?
President Sadat was a huge wussy he was afraid of losing those aircrafts that’s why many Egyptians wish Nasser lived to lead the army that dayb
@@b.elzebub9252 The comment that these machines were in storage may or may not be correct. The Migs certainly were transported to Egypt in a dismantled state in Soviet cargo aircraft. Egypt's President Anwar Sadat was angry the Soviets would neither train Egyptian pilots nor sell Mig-25s to Egypt so he ordered the Russians to leave before the 1973 war. That said; the Migs were once again operating from Egypt towards the end of that conflict before finally being withdrawn in 1974.
For some strange reason I keep watching these videos, there very interesting and presented well but its the information that makes them in my opinion.
This channel is amazing, the level of detail is unique and fascinating
This is an astounding and fantastic study of the air war in 1973...thank you for this! Amazing...
Serious respect for this. You comprehensively list all the combatants, and from a perspective of real capabilities, training, combat experience, professionalism, hardware standards, airframe availability/reliability, and actual weapons performance, rather than merely quoting Janes/what people THINK a particular platform does on paper, like it is some kind of military hitbox RPG game.
what a video to release, mere days before the cycle repeats itself once again
and it seems that the analysis was prophetic for the same problems the Israelis are facing today
Well this was well timed
@17:10 I like the guitar hanging in the pilots outdoor station.
Correction: A.Sattar Alvi was named master of migs after the engagement with Israelis over Golan Heights..
He was named that because at that time there were no mig21's in Pakistan inventory, and most of the PAF pilots on arrival in Syria had never flown mig 21's which had cockpit instruments labelled in either Russian or Arabic, which added the to the headache for volunteer PAF pilots.PAF had F6(chinese mig 19's) upto that period.
He became the top main instructor of F7(chinese variant of mig21) after their induction in PAF.
A.Sattar Alvi was sent to Syria SAAF initially and not to the Egypt.
Interesting to hear about the possible impact of the lack of what I would term depth to the Egyptian aircraft maintenance / support and their ability to correct battle damage. I very much fear that the US is in a similarly weak position today, with far too much dependence on sub contractors, under trained maintainers, and horribly snarled supply lines for parts, evidenced in part by extremely poor readiness numbers for aircraft like the F-35. Sub Brief took a good look at this recently for anybody interested.
Magnífico trabajo, enhorabuena
Great video! Excellent research and delivery!! You are a pro👏👏👏
Holy crap this was released 15 minutes ago. I'm there dude
Awesome history video, thanks! So many wars to study, so little time.
That was fascinating. Cheers!
When I was in the navy I had operatuniny to talk some Israeli defense soldiers and they said a lot of things I can't repeat, even today, but I can tell that they loved the m-16 for its lightness and it's firepower.
Great video. Well researched and informative. At about 13:00 the voice over calls the aircraft a Mig-5 when i am sure you meant Mirage-5. Nevertheless, another quality video from a great channel. Keep up the good work.
Fantastic content! Well researched, thorough, and excellent background & context! Please keep up the good work!
Not to be nitpicky, & perhaps someone here already pointed it out , but at 13:04 I think perhaps you meant Mirage instead of Mig 5b's? Anyway, thanks for a good in-depth analysis. Well done.
Correct, Mirage 5D was a export single-seat ground-attack aircraft of the Mirage 5 build for Libya.
What an attractive subject. Airpower from 1916 battles to the present, cannot wait from more subjects on the matter. Regarding the video, well paced, good graphics, and, more importantly, great explanation. Looking forward to more. Just a minor detail, we cannot underestimate the surface to air weaponry, it has been a factor in many air conflicts, specially in 1973 Middle East conflicts.
Soviet set up there own Top Gun program in the late 60s.but the soviet refusal to allow the arabs pilot to train along side with soviet pilot.this lead to high attrition lost among the arab pilot.
Tom Cooper is an expert in this field. His explanation is that Arab leaders didn't trust their pilots and usually picked them from less competent but believed to be loyal airmen. More importantly they feared undue influence from Soviet leadership so it wasn't only a one sided street as you present. It's a well known fact that Arab military officers didn't share a lot of information about their plans with the Soviets which has been to their detriment under multiple scenarios.
Rusia no good
During the iran iraq war.iraq complain the poor performance of soviet fighter decided to buy french mirage f1 ,soviet decided to make concession allowing the iraq acess to soviet top gun program.
13:06 did you mean Mirage 5B?
(There is no "Mig VB" but there is a Mirage VB as shown in the photos.)
Great content and analysis! Looking forward to much more. Congratulations!
Hi, just wanted to give you a compliment and some encouragement, I think your videos are the best content on cold war aerial warfare I’ve seen anywhere, and thats saying something because theres a lot of excellent content out there. Keep up the good work and I look forward to your future posts. Thank you for all of the great work that you do.
I love these videos
7:57 The PFM is a further development of the PFS and had the SPS blown flap system as standard. There really isn't a neat divide between the PFS and the PFM, and apparently, the PFM designation only started to be used long after the PFS had received all the modifications (redesigned canopy, enlarged vertical stabilizer, upgraded engine and radar) that defined the PFM.
It’s amazing how quickly aircraft have become completely irrelevant with properly used modern SAM’s
Your content is just exceptional!
A very well researched documentary.
Dense stuff ... going to need s rewatch 😮ty Good Sir
Ha! Yes. It did turn out a bit that way. I think I got a bit too into the detail...
@@notapoundon the other hand, the details in your work are what holds up and makes for such fascinating and clear insights from your side. Keep it up, you have another fan in me here.
Excellent video, love this kind of stuff
Loving your work fella!
This channel is better than most :) very good 👍
THESE ARE WELL PUT TOGETHER , THANK YOU FOR A FULL UNDERSTAND OF WHAT EVER HAPPENED. 😮😊
GOBBLESS
Great video...👍
SAM launchers were the reason for IDAF difficulties
I'd really love to see a continuation video on the war. One of my favorite parts of aviation history. Great video
Another Great Video, One of the Best Military Jet Channels there is. Thank You for all your hard work that you put into each Video, Always enjoy ever second of it.
There’s a maneuver called a “Syrian lead turn” where two aircraft merge and the Syrian aircraft turns first such that it is either out front or almost out front of the opposing aircraft.
During yom kippur war, Israel modified their A4 with extended exhaust nozzle with the intention of minimizing damage from SAM. Does it have drawbacks like drag or thrust penalty..? Been trying to find about it but couldn’t find it. Thanks 🙏.
There may be useful information on the A4 mod in the Osprey books on aces,the A4 etc .
The ‘barrel’, I think it was called. I believe the intention was to move the detonation point of the proximity fuse further back and, as you say, reduce damage.
Instinctively I’d say that it probably reduces thrust a bit as you’re reducing the exhaust speed through increased friction and changing the shape of the nozzle. I’ll have a look at it though. Great question! Thanks!
@@francishruszka877I’m pretty sure it’s not mentioned in any worthwhile detail in any of the well-known Skyhawk history books
I am pretty sure it was mainly intended for countering heat seeking MANPADS and maybe to a lesser extend bigger SAMs, because of the former having a very small warhead of around 1kg (SA-7) and the fact that their method of guidance made the missile hit the aircraft in the tail section. A couple of meters would not make a difference when an SA-2 detonates its 200kg blast-fragmentation warhead, or even the smaller 60-70kg of the SA-3. It is described in the Shlomo Aloni book, Israeli A-4 Skyhawk Units in Combat. Great video btw.
It has weight draw back for sure
join us for more videos about 1973 war
Fabulous, well researched presentations; thank you.
Please do a fact check! Mohamed Aly Fahmy was the commander of the air defence forces. Former president Mubarak was the air force commander
These are always well-researched, constructed and presented videos. Many thanks.
It is just so enormously regrettable - and tragic - that the events of the past weekend have occurred, spoiling this neutral historical assessment with unavoidable 'live' comparisons.
May peace come soon. For both communities.
Just as good as I thought it was going to be. Great video. Can you pretty please do a part two about the actual battle?!
Another excelent video!
Great video!
This is a production technical question, with no criticism intended toward your EXCELLENT content. Why can’t aspect ratio be adjusted? On so many videos using stock footage I’ve seen narrow aspect widened, and wide aspect narrowed, seemingly with no rhyme or reason. You’re a fantastically meticulous researcher, so there must a reason for these discrepancies in your own videos-if not in others’. What’s the issue?
Thanks for the comment and glad you enjoyed the video. I source the videos from all sorts of places and they come in different formats - mostly ‘squarer’ ratios.
To be honest, I’m a complete amateur on the video production side of things, so there probably is a way of fixing the aspect ratio. I tend to like to include as much of the footage as I can in there rather than trim it.
Short answer - I need to dedicate some time to learning the editing. Any suggestions much appreciated!
@@notapoundI usually don't like stretched video, so it's usually best to either keep the black bars in its default format, or zoom to fill the screen if there is no need to see the edges of the source material. The choice is more stylistic than anything.
The AIM 7 was tactically employed to break up and cause distrubtion in the enemy formation prior to the merge.
It was not always deployed in the heart of the envelope to achieve a kill.
Expensive but effective pre merge psych ops. Breaking up the incoming enemy formation has great advantages.
Look, it's the PU 36 Explosive Space Tumbleweed!
Wonderfully thought out analysis. Thank you so much, much appreciated. I wonder if you would consider an unbiased study of the Indian and Pakistani wars and their tactics please? Your analysis is unbiased and fair and I for one would love to get your perspective of those conflicts, judging that some of the weapon systems are quite similar ( apart from replacing the phantom with the star fighter in this scenario ) with assumed quite different results. Thanking you in anticipation and keep up the stellar work. Cheers.
Thanks - appreciate the kind thoughts. I am planning to do that. A very interesting subject, but it is a long process to gather the research material. Lots to learn!
Aim-9B was still the standard in most of the western world at the time.
It was to the J/P/N versions of the sidewinder that the AIM-9B was upgraded.
Israel had the 9L in 1981 which the UK did not get until the Falklands.
It was a Johnsson administration policy to provide Israel with the best weapons the US had and this has been every administrations policy since.
time for round two I guess
the air battle of El mansoura was a sight to behold, and its outcome is celebrated to this day by the EAF
13:04 - I think you meant to say, "Mirage 5s", not "MiG-5s".
Great spot! Too many ‘M’s in aircraft names!!
Great historical.❤ Just after 6 days war De Gaulle (FR) dicided ambargo against Israël who had Mirage III and was looking at Mirage V ( cheaper with lighter electronics) so Israël with Marcel DASSAULT secret help... ( AKA Marcel Bloch went 8 months at Bunkenwald because didn't coop with nazi + jewish) they manage to built the "NESHER" that still had a French ATAR engine, that mossad manage to find with U.D ?? ... later Israël "stoled" plans of mirage ( in swiss probably with Dassault help ?? ) and create Kfir with US engine services 1975. In 1973 Mirage III/V did incredible job, ultra reliable flying hundreds hours with NO service at all !!! Just refuel, rearm, changes exhaust pilots. Propably never happened such avaibility in aviation history hopeefully lots of F4 .. thx very good vid.
War is cruel, I hope there will be no more war.
13:05 Mig 5B ?
Mirage-5B?
Mirage 5D, a export single-seat ground-attack aircraft of the Mirage 5 build for Libya.
Enter the ZSU 23 four barrelled radar directed 30 mm. Goodbye fighter pilot in close air support.
Good-by Egyptian aircraft in larger numbers.
An ugly surprise but definitely not the end of CAS, even in 1973.
The ZPU 23's wasnt 30mm though?, the clue is in the name?, the GSh 30/2 or shiparnov was a 30mm though, but that was only used on as or maybe navy vessels i think??..either you're trying to big something up that its clearly not??!, or you're not very clued up with soviet weoponry.....7mm is alot when you're a man, put it this way you'd be wanting to gain it rather than loose it!!..
@@wor53lg50He could have gotten confused, as Pantsir uses 30mm guns and he may not understand Soviet designations.
5:15 Sattar Alvi, ps excuse me sir but isn't that a Mirage III I am seeing here 13:05?
Hmm, it's interesting how youtube cut off the very last word that you dictated!! We all know how it ended and how it will end.
13:05 did you mean Mirage 5B?
I do think the MiG 21 bears a passing resemblance to the English Electric Lightning. But with its Engines placed horizontally.
Mig 21 has only one engine.
Actually the Soviet aircraft in the MiG-21 family that most resembled the EE Lightning, (and far exceeded it's blistering speed, acceleration, climb, and high altitude capability), were the little-known late-50's and early-'60's era experimental heavy MiG interceptors of the 'Ye-' series. These twin, and later, single-engined fighter's, (which never entered service), performance rivalled that of the much later MiG-25 in terms of high-Mach speed and altitude...
What plane is a mig5b ?
To my knowledge Palistan never operated the MiG-21. Instead they operated the Chengdu J-7 in multiple variants, and the original J-7 did differ from the MiG-21 F-13 it was based on because it had a different fuel system.
Pakistan*
The J7 entered Pakistani service in the late 1980s. Presumably, their experience came from their engagement of Indian mig 21s in 1971
One of the best autobiographies from anybody from a middle-east air force is "Saddam's Secrets" by Georges Sada. Sada was a General in the Iraqi air force, the first Iraqi to fly a Mig-21, and the only man who stopped Saddam's crazy son, who in a rage wanted to torture and murder all the captured allied pilots during Gulf War 1.
Standing up to Uday Hussein is very impressive. He was a psychopath, a sadist, and a serial killer who acted with impunity. He would even have Iraqi Olympic athletes who performed poorly during training or competitions tortured in Uday’s own personal prison.
Telling him anything against his wishes was incredibly brave for anyone in Iraq
Cheers. Subbed.
Will there be a part 2 to this?
why keeping on saying IDF AF? its wrong, you don't say חיל האוויר של צה"ל. it is called the in short IAF as חיל האוויר השראלי.
Re. the Six Day War, I once read a story that suggested the Chief of the Egyptian AF (Sidki or Sidiki I think?) actually received some amount of warning about Israel's plans via the KGB/GRU, and managed to get airborne in a command & control aircraft before the first wave of strikes arrived. As the story tells it, he had a ringside seat for the destruction of basically his entire force, all the while begging the Soviets to send aircraft, send troops, send anything...
I don't know how true it is or if it's just clever writing, but it _feels_ like it could be true. :)
27:30 Croatian Mig-21 over the island of Molat 😊
13:06 Thats not a MIG 5, thats a Mirage.
Forgot the IAI Sa'ar (super mysteres) which were also used
Who forgot? They were mentioned in the narrative and featured in the force breakdown charts
Some of these Super Mysteres would then go to Honduras and serve in a conflict against Nicaragua, shooting down a few Mi8s and one Mi25.
I think Pakistani and Indian air forces get slept on. Those guys have seen some combat over the years
I just clicked so this clip is in my history.
And because somebody maybe can answer this question: the 2 fighters in the thumbnail are Su-7 ?
I think they may be Su17s, but could also be Su7s. To me they look like Su7s
Talk about foreshadowing
13:00 that had me googling for like 5 mints
So basically their equipment was good(barring missiles), but their training(In Egypts case) and command structure was not. That’s why Arab Migs sucked, while Vietnamese Migs did very well.
Kinda odd though how Vietnam was able to perform well with outdated missiles but Syria and Egypt couldn’t do similarly.
Vietnam relied on guerrilla warfare. There was no aviation. Other than that, the Egyptians were highly efficient and gained strong experience. However, Israel is considered part of America. America supported it in everything. And egypt won and back sina in the end.
Does anyone know if Israel used their Fouga Magister jet trainers as ground attack aircraft....a secondary role that it was designed to perform....i know they used them in that role in the 6 day war.
not in 73.
@@amitnachman3840 thanks for the info.....love that plane btw
Noob question but I cant find info online, what the hell is positive delta mach
My best interpretation was that he meant that the launching aircraft had a speed advantage over the target aircraft it was chasing I.e. the missile didn’t have to overcome an initial disadvantage in airspeed vs it’s target when launched…
@@neilturner6749 thank
Interesting how the MiG-19SF was not mentioned at all, despite being one of the more feared dogfighters.
Incorrect about the mig21mf being superior to anything idf had outside the f4 . The m21mf was an up engined more powerful version of the f but it was a cheaper export only version with only 2 missiles and no gun unless the gun pack was installed.
The MF had an internal gun and four pylons for missiles, maybe you mixed it up with the PF's?
One thing to note though is that it was quite a bit heavier than previous generation MiG's, and according to Tom Cooper they were deployed to fighter bomber units and therefore their pilots didn't had as much training in air combat as the dedicated fighter-interceptor squadrons.
Yes u r correct I stand corrected. Too many mig21 variants lol