What happened to Gondor's navy?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ก.ย. 2022
- In this video, we look at Gondor's navy, and how and why it went from being one of the most powerful forces in Middle-earth during the time of the Ship-kings to being barely mentioned by the time of the War of the Ring.
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New idea: why Gondor slowly failed and why Gondor had not helped Arnor(Arthedain) sooner, despite a large army.
that would be very interesting my friend
My headcanon for why Gondor didn't help Arnor during the Angmar War, is that Gondor was preoccupied with domestic issues relating to Eldacar's half-Northman blood, and that the Gondorians thought that the Witch-king was just some random Black Númenórean or a rogue Dúnadan who set up shop in the north, and by the time that they realized who he actually was (or at least how dangerous he actually was) they were already vastly weakened by the Kin-strife, and were preoccupied with their wars against the Corsairs and later on the Great Plague.
I've sort of covered this stuff in my War in Middle-earth series, but it would be handy to put it all into one, concise video. Ask and you shall receive (eventually).
@@DarthGandalfYT yes u already did, might be some hidden lore to explore xd
I want to add, medieval navies(which this basically was) tend to have a hard time sustaining themselves since well they are made of wood. This means your ships constantly rot and have to be rebuild. Thus, if a nation doesn't really fund their navy, it tends to decline pretty fast. Medieval England basically went through that cycle a couple of times: Build a navy to combat France, best France, don't pay for the fleet, it rots and then you have to fully rebuild it if you want to keep it.
This channel is exactly what the fans of Tolkien's work needed: a collection of discussions on all of the questions we had while reading the books that either never got answered or were glossed over by larger, more pressing matters.
I've always thought that the Gondorian navy became more and more ships from Dol Amroth or Lebennin, and less and less national "royal" ships as the government in Minas Tirith focused on the Anduin. The bigger threat was over Osgiliath and Cair Andros, and so the provineces were left to deal for themselves, and the only ones I see having the money for a navy are Belfalas or Lebennin (with the remains of the national navy at Pelargir)
During the war, I expect Imrahil pulled some strings, and managed to get the Gondorian navy to defend Belfas and Dor-in-Ernil, instead of Pelargir.
Strategically, it is almost assured the corsairs will do two things:
1) Strike at Pelargir in massive force. This opens the route up Anduin to Minas Tirith, captures control of the main highway north, (one through Lossarnach would be slower) and sacks the third city of Gondor. It would be the primary target of any concentration for these reasons.
2) Send harrying raids to as many coastal towns as possible, to draw off defense from the main attacks at Pelargir and Minas Tirith. This includes likely a larger raid at Dol Amroth to try and keep the Swan Knights at home or maybe even take the city. That said, any large attacks defeat the purpose of engaging as many Gondorian garrisons as possible and striking in force towards the capital.
Due to these predictions, the most likely place for the fleet to actually do anything is based out of the West. If you can intercept the (relatively) coastal attackers around Belfalas, you can defend Dol Armoth, Anfalas, and maybe Linhir, while at the same time not having to fight a losing battle against the main force of Black Ships going the other way to Pelargir. (Also, if alot of those ships are the Prince's, he'll want them at Belfalas while he and the army are at Minas Tirith)
Since we don't hear about any attacks on Dol Amorth (they seem to come out just fine) and there is not sign of anyone behind the Army of the Dead (in Belfalas/Dor-in-Ernil) it makes sense to assume the the Gondorian fleet intercepted the smaller raids the corsairs sent west, and destroyed them, allowing Aragorn to wrap up the rest of the corsairs at Pelargir. It also fits with the very large force (~900) that Imrahil brought to the Pelennor if he knew his lands would be mostly safe.
I was always extremely curious about the black numenorean settlements in Harad. We know about Umbar but it is referenced that there were others farther south. I've always wondered what they were like and if they survived into the fourth age.
Ar-Gimilkhad rules the south. :D
Jk, that is just fan fiction. Most likely those colonies would have fared the same as Umbar. Exploiting the natives and lording over them until the ruling caste of black numenoreans weakens enough by loosing their numenorean gifts and then being overthrown by the locals
@@wilhelmrk I believe Aragon himself said something along these lines. Still, these lands may contain settlements that are beyond the knowledge of anyone in the Red book at the time.
I would imagine that some Black Numenorean communities survived in one form or another at least into the Fourth Age. The Mouth of Sauron had to come from somewhere.
@@Uncle_Fred It was Faramir.
And you're right about these places being outside the scope of the Red Book. It's the old unreliable narrator easter egg.
@@DarthGandalfYT Thank you for the correction. Shame Tolkien didn't opt to write some narratives in these lands during the second or third age.
Interesting subject. I always thought, that the Gondorian navy was destroyed in a surprise attack by the corsairs, that's why Aragorn, and the southern armies had to take their ships.
It's definitely a possibility. By the time Aragorn arrived at Pelagir, the Gondorian fleet was either absent altogether or sitting at the bottom of the Anduin.
@@DarthGandalfYT Prior to the development of accurate long-range gunnery and high rate of fire anti-personnel weapons, boarding and capturing enemy ships was more common than outright sinking, and certainly of more personal profit to the victors. Whether Umbar and/or Gondor had a prize money system is a question that I believe will remain unanswered.
that is exactly what happened. Aragorn in his youth led a raid on umbar and destroyed the corsair fleet decades before which gave Gondor relief for years.
I'm guessing Umbar had to import wood to build ships since they're located near an arid region where you're not likely to find trees. I guess saying that Gondor was too busy with Mordor is a good excuse for why they couldn't utilize their superior resources to outship the primarily ship-based enemies.
What happened to the people of the White Mountains, the women and children just all died out as the men lingered and became ghosts? Wish we had more information.
He already made a video about that topic some time ago.
I get the feeling that the women and children were not spared. Lord of the Rings Online actually touches on that subject in what ends up being quite a heart-breaking story.
That was a very brilliantly detailed and compelling enthralling video on the rise and fall of Gondor's navy over the years of the third age. Very logical argument that Gondor's focus on expansion and empire building which its navy was a key component and tool of. Waned when threats raised their head closer to home, necessitating military concentrations there to defend against them and chance in policy that led to its navy declining and withering as it became only a home defence force against corsairs, whom eventually they became nearly helpless to stop.
This is another good question.
After all even with the sons of castomir taking the navy and destroying naval infrastructure, wouldn't there still be ships?
Aragorn led a small fleet in disguise before the start of the war of the ring.
What about dol amroth?
Didn't the princes of belfalas have any ships under their command too?
Great video!!!!
I always wondered, but I somewhat disagree with your final assessment.
While I do believe Gondor's navy was greatly weakened I do not believe it was as bad as you said it is.
And I would think the Navy could pose still a credible threat against the corsair in ideal conditions.
Here is the main issue I believe, lack of force concentration, they were simply spread too thin along Gondor major settlements on the coastline. Gondor had to defend every major coastal city while the corsair can simply concentrate their forces and pick and choose were to attack, and defeat Gondor's Navy in detail. Basically, they held the strategic initiative.
I do still agree with everything else you said, and I do believe Gondor's navy was but a shadow of its former self, but still Gondor is still definitely still represented even in its decline as a nation with strong naval traditions, so that they would fall as low as what is said in the video I have my doubts.
You definitely could be right. Tolkien being vague with many of his writings is both a blessing (we get to headcanon) and a curse (what truly happened?!?).
Throughout most of the 3rd Age and particularly when its power was waxing, Gondor often had conflicts with other sea powers. That couple with their naval heritage from being descended from Númenor made sure they were a naval super power. But Gondor was long past its height and for some time it's greatest threats had come from land, not the sea. It's easy enough I think to imagine Gondor's navy having been reduced to coastal defense by the time of the War of the Ring as the military budget had to be focused on land forces to defend against Mordor.
Yet another obvious question I had never asked myself... Great video, me likey!
nice lore bro thanks!!
keep it up cheers
The real question is what happened to Numenor's navy in the Rings of Power?!?! 3 tiny ships sent to ME does not scream mightiest naval power ever...
Maybe too bad, or maybe just fine, that Sauron didn't have aome ridiculous sea force of krakens, or leviathans, to assault the navies of his enemies. Maybe he had some, as it is implied that someone couldn't just hop on a boat, with the One Ring, and sail beyond Sauron's reach, as he likely feared Ulmo, and going too far west, where the Valar might get him, but they imply that even these seas may not be safe, and that the Ring could not simply be taken that way, defeating the Dark Lord.
Very valid question. WHERE DID NAVY GO ???
As you know, at their peak the ships of Gondor sailed round the world - thus finding out that "all roads were now bent". But Gondor lacked the technological edge of, for example, Europeans from the 15th century onwards, the weapons of the men of Gondor, although better made (at first) were much the same as the weapons of the men of other lands. So the voyages of discovery of the men of Gondor would be like those of the Norse or, long before them, the Greeks or Carthaginians - not like the massive expansion of Europeans from the 15th to the 20th centuries.
A topic for Middle Earth Mysteries, what and or who is Saruman referring to when he stated that Gandalf wants the “crowns of seven kings”
4 eastern dwarf kings, king of Erebor, king of Dale and king of Rohan.
I've often wondered where the Corsairs got the wood for their ships.
Something ive always wondered is would not Gondor of recover vast riches from the rubble of Barad-Dur considering Sauron has horded most of the Mithril in middle earth? Fordo's vest alone would of likely bought a fleet of ships if sold, no?
Yes. We know for a fact that Sauron hoarded Mithril. It's so valuable, it's unlikely he would trust its keeping to any other fortress. Also, a Palentar should be in that rubble. We know for a fact that it was harder than the black stone of the Orthanc. It should have survived. In fact, the riches of the dark tower may have gone a long way towards paying for Aragon's great expansion of Gondor.
I get the feeling that there wasn't much to recover from Barad-dur. It's destruction is described as being particularly violent.
Where was their navy when the Westfold fell?
Sailing to the west. 😂
Nice
I would really like to see you tackle a couple of topics:
The first is twins in Tolkien's works. There are many sets of twins of a wide variety of races brought up by Tolkein. If you had analysis to offer towards this I would be all ears.
The second is the potential for other mixed-race people in Middle Earth. We have several examples of half-elves and even elf-Maiar children but what about half-dwarves, half-hobbits, or even elf-dwarf children? Did Tolkein ever address this subject?
Interesting topics.
To sate some of your curiosity - Elf/Man pairings are possible because Tolkien confirmed that Elves and Men are biologically the same, but spiritually different. As a sub-set of Men, Elf/Hobbit pairings and Man/Hobbit pairings would be possible. Dwarves is an interesting one; we're unsure if they are biologically the same as Elves/Men, so we're unsure if their could be half-Dwarves. We certainly never hear of any.
Oh ... and I thought that Isildur and his not friend blew up close to half of the fleet with high explosive barrels of oil, that was loaded for whatever reasons ... like they did with the Numenorian fleet ...
... no I did not think that.
Do we have any information on eregion and if any humans lived there? It always seemed odd west Gondor and north of it had no large settlements. After the supposedly large elven population, you would think their old cities would be settled by human populations. Same thing with arnor I guess, maybe he never got around to more detail
Men may have lived there in the First Age, but there's no mention of them living there in the Second Age considering the Elves took over. The place remained deserted afterwards, and there's no evidence of any permanent Mannish settlements there. Doesn't mean they didn't pass through, but yeah, as far as we know, no Men in Eregion.
Now do Gondor's airforce
It was destroyed at the Battle of Midway.
could you make a video about what happened to the men of the east who served sauron after sauron was defeaten? they still hated the elves and gondor i assume so waht happened
Thank you for not being a shill
He is a shill to Castamir
Interesting and reasonable analysis, especially given Gondor's long coastline.
I have a question related the Gondor's general decline and the pulling back of its borders in the Third Age: why did everyone seem okay with Saruman taking control of Isengard? I understand the historical issues of the region being given to the stewardship of Rohan and how after the time of Helm Hammerhand it needed to be in the hands of someone other than those with Dunlending sympathies. However, I don't know why the job went to Saruman. He didn't seem to be a known quantity in Rohan or Gondor; I'm not even sure if they knew he was one of the Istari. Why, then, was his residence in Isegard accepted so readily?
Saruman wasn't exactly unknown to the Gondorians; he actually resided there for some time. The Stewards also knew that Saruman was the leader of the White Council, so they probably thought 'hey, who better to be warden of Isengard than the leader of the guys who want to kick Sauron's ass?'.
@@nilubensonofnimruzir1637 I know Saruman "went east" for a thousand years or so, but I think he only returned to the region at the end of the Watchful Peace. Isn't the Grey Council made up of mostly Elves and Wizards? In any event, I guess it's possible Saruman used his powers of persuasion and his "voice" to makes himself appear the best choice to take over Isengard. It just seems to me that it speaks to dire shrinking of Gondor's power and influence where lordship of an ancient and important site is subcontracted to someone with a vague background.
@@PeculiarNotions He wouldn't have been vague to the Stewards. It's likely that he was in close contact with them for many years. The libraries of Gondor would have been of great use to him in his pursuits.
@@Uncle_Fred It's possible, but I don't recall any specific mention of it in the books. He also never seemed to have as positive a reputation as Gandalf.
@@PeculiarNotions Found them:
"`In former days the members of my order had been well received [in Gondor], but Saruman most of all. Often he had been for long the guest of the Lords of the City. Less welcome did the Lord Denethor show me then than of old, and grudgingly he permitted me to search among his hoarded scrolls and books.
‘”If indeed you look only, as you say, for records of ancient days, and the beginnings of the City, read on!” he said. “For to me what was is less dark than what is to come, and that is my care. But unless you have more skill even than Saruman, who has studied here long, you will find naught that is not well known to me, who am master of the lore of this City.”‘
-The Council of Elrond, The Lord of the Rings
and...
"Now the White Messenger in later days became known Elves as Curunír, the Man of Craft, in the tongue of Northern Men Saruman; but that was after he returned from his many journeys and came into the realm of Gondor and there abode."
- The Istari, Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth
There's your answer.
Any chance of doing the fate of Earnaur the last king of Gondor? or what could have happened to maglor
I don't think we know enough to even make a good guess. He was probably imprisoned within Minas Morgul. The Nazgul likely interrogated him. He was probably fed water from the Morgul Vale in this process. He would have gone mad pretty quickly. When he was of no further use, he was probably left to die.
Never thoguht of that before, but you're right the Stewards were far more passive and defensive than the kings. If a king had been in power, he probably would have just sent a fleet down to Umbar and wreck it again, once they started to become a threat again. A little, international politics commentary from Tolkien? Pre ww2 appeasement was still fresh in peoples minds. Not that I'm saying any of this is a straight allegory, more just concepts.
How far did the Numenoreans reach in their expeditions?
They had soon travelled the whole world except to Valinor
@@muenchhausenmusic Correct. We're told they even made it to the seas to the east of Middle-earth.
Who is worse sauron or numenor?
@@tijltrienen Absolutely Sauron.
Idk wher is Gondor's navy. But i know one think, it definitely wasn't in the west-march, that's for sure. :D
Where was Gondor….‘s navy?
frets
What happened to the gondor
when then the westfold fell
I have to say I just came across your channel and you're way more interesting to listen to than watching Rings of Power if you like it fine but the first two episodes took me nearly five hours to watch and the last two I just gave up halfway through episode 4 with Galadriel's (so called) action scene from the "FOUR!!!" Numenorean guards it was laughable that any Marvel Black Widow action scene would put what I've seen so far on this show to shame especially with the budget they put on this. Nope I'm done with ROP I will stick with shows like yours that are more entertaining thank for being here.
Oviously no Gondorian Marines
Hmm it really makes you think. If the Gondor Marine boats still exist during the return of the king they probably could of used the ghosts to win the war (like aragorn running out with sword from boat with ghost)
The navies of land-locked nations are reserved strictly for homosexual purposes.
Is there a hell? If not then what happens to the evil beings that dies?
There is no "hell". And it depends on the being. Morgoth was executed, and his spirit was banished into the Void (which is nothingness). Sauron was killed, and his spirit was reduced to a point of impotence where it wouldn't possibly rise again.
new idea: if numenoreans were so great, how come they didnt invent democracy?
considering tolkien used democracy in his world (mikel delving had an elected mayor) why didnt the greatest man civilization ever use a democracy based system - something like the uk for example?
i understand the elfish reason as the good king will "never" die so they wont need to replace him but it doesnt work like that for man right?
And who said democracy is the best sht even invented.
@@peger well 1 of the reasons numenor fell is that the late kings were corrupted and money hungry - something that shouldnt heappen with a democracy
@@yotam_clash4214 your Naivety is astounding
@@yotam_clash4214 bruhhhh "politicians" are corrupt and money hungry. The system of power has nothing to do with it. If it a king, prime minister or an unnamed senator.
And democratically elected officials are not Power hungry and corrupt? LoL