"Why cant gay people just be together without being married?" Marriage is a legal action. Anything to do with relationships or religion is an addon, but it is first and foremost a binding legal action. It allows you to access things like each other's finances or insurance, and allows you to inherit their possessions. It is a legal action, and denying someone access to a legal action solely because of their identity is insane. If youre a gay man and your lover is dying of complications from AIDS (which is a problem gay people had to worry about), your lover might not be able to access your health insurance. And they have an unsupportive family (which is also a problem gay people STILL have to worry about), youll also have to worry about their family trying to take their inheritance from you, and since you arent legally bound to them, you would have no way to fight them. Marriage is a legal right and denying it to someone can seriously ruin their life.
THIS. I hate that argument so much as a gay dude. Marriage isn't just a cultural institution, it is a legal agreement that grants powers to the people that have agreed to marry that they would not have otherwise. By allowing such privileges to be given to straight couples but not gay ones, you are by definition degrading equal rights.
"Why can't gay people just be together without getting married?" such a stupid ass argument because i can respond with "Why can't ANYONE just be together without getting married?"
It’s wild seeing a very young looking Hank who sounds exactly the same and has the same fiery passion for logic and reasoning and compassion, right? I love the guy!
TH-cam recommended this video to me after watching John's most recent video "How Does He Do It?" and the way Hank discusses gender and sexuality 11 years ago is somehow even more relevant to the laws in the US this month than they were before Marriage Equality was finally enacted. I'm so grateful to have had the chance to grow to understand the world and think of others complexly because of these brothers. Thank you for being the persons you are, and for continuing to share your nuanced thoughts with us for so much of your lives, Monsieurs Green. DFTBA
@@MickeyMouse-lm6zj wow, that might be the dumbest thing I've ever heard. First of all, there are plenty of things we accept that aren't "normal." No other species on the planet has a religion. No other species on the planet has a language. No other species on the planet forges metal. No other species on the planet builds rockets. No other species on the planet has been to the moon. These things aren't "normal" and they are amazing. You know what a shit ton of other animals have? Gender and sexual diversity. That is far more normal than 99% of the things that humans do on a regular basis. You couldn't even stop there. You had to say "people will start identifying as animals," despite the fact that humans are literally animals. We are in the kingdom of animalia. Unless you're a single celled organism, a plant, or a fungus, you're a fucking animal. You have mitochondria, you're multicellular, you lack cell walls, and you respirate. That makes you an animal. When you have to tell yourself that every single scientist on the fucking planet is stupid while your uneducated prejudice is the real intelligence, you're just making excuses for being stupid. Simple as.
If atheists, Muslims, Jews, Indians, buddists and people of other religions can get married, then people shouldn’t be allowed to use religion as an argument against it since marriage isn’t just a Christian concept
I love that I just got recommended this video where I left a comment 6 years ago saying I didn’t agree with homosexuality on a religious basis… I’m bi. And I’m a girl that has a trans wife. And I’m happier than that homophobe ever was
we were all at that stage once, don't be ashamed of it. hell, even i was. young minds are easily manipulated by hateful beliefs. congratulations on finding yourself and a lover :)
To paraphrase a famous video game dragon: is it more noble to be born on the side of good, or to have overcome one’s evil nature/past to do good? Truly, it takes strength to do something like that and tell others about it. Best of luck to you both!
"So two gay people who love each other can't get married but two straight people who hate each other can?" "Yes, that's what we raised you to believe." - Family Guy
I mean this is sorta cold but what does love have to do with marriage at all? Like ideally we want to marry someone we love but simply making a commitment to someone you love isn’t the purpose of marriage
@@michaelvigil3436i guess the purest form of love transcends things like marriage. Mostly because marriage was a way to I presume(based on what I know of history) seek off women to rich men to make the rest of the family money.
@@greglynas52 Arguably the purest form of love is that between a parent and their child yet they don’t need to get married to demonstrate this love. Marriage was designed to keep parents together to raise their children, it was a practical solution to a societal issue
When I was a 12 year old I realized I was bisexual and I was terrified. This video helped me for years. I would go back to it. It's one of the first pieces of content that made me sure there wasn't something wrong with me.
I remember reddit showing me atheism is entirely normal/whatever. You be you, if you're not hurting anybody then go ahead! If you love somebody and are able to show them so, please go ahead even harder!
@@riverebec1 "If complexity were "natural" it wouldn't be "complex"." what does this even mean? the human body is incredibly complex, and that goes for just about every living thing. the weather is also incredibly complex. the same goes for almost very piece of our universe. the things you could consider the least complex are things like atoms. if you're looking at surface level features, than yeah, you could consider things to not be complex. but anything you can see with the human eye is made up of thousands of individual parts that each have thousands of individual parts of their own
I’m endlessly obsessed with the “it’s unnatural” argument. “I don’t like it because it’s unnatural!” Yeah well so are streets and cities and houses and cheetos and you don’t seem to have a problem with those.
So you are admitting that it is unnatural....? Isn't that unhealthy to normalize for children. Once you go down the "so what?!" route, you open to anything. Standards are important...
@@seanchaney3086 well no of course it’s natural to be gay. The purpose of my argument is to point out the inherently fallacious quality of the “appeal to nature”. Like if I were to claim that heterosexuality is unnatural the same argument would apply - anybody can claim anything is “unnatural” and that claim falls hollow because who gives a dusty darn dang about what’s natural? What’s natural is pooping in the woods and dying before you turn 30. It’s just an argument that works within the framework of your interlocutor. The point is that, even if it were unnatural, which it certainly isn’t, that argument would still not work.
I come from a country where gay marriage is legal for a long time, and my aunt is married to a woman, so I grew up with it. You know, when you grow up with it, it's not weird at all. You know what my aunt said when I asked her as a kid about it? She said: I fall in love with the person, not with the gender.
@@Lion_Hamza gay people are in the minority. Just because they’re allowed to live their lives doesn’t mean humanity is going to die out. It’s not like banning gay marriage is going to make them straight
Just found this video, amidst all the anti-trans nonsense. I remember fighting for marriage equality in Ohio back then... It's really heartwarming to see that Hank was recognizing the complexity of gender even then. 😊
@@theybybaby-gz7rp Huh. I haven't heard anything about that. Hard to keep up with all the horrible things happening right now, especially with the 500+ anti-trans bills introduced in 49 states this year. I can't even tell you what all of them say, because... Who could? It's too many! I know 16 states have taken away trans rights in one form or another, mostly for trans kids, but some adults have been impacted. I've also heard that drag performers are being used as cannon fodder to police people's gender expression like it's the friggin' 1950s, but... What is going on with marriage equality??? *Sighs in Bi/Trans*
The good news is that this is mainly the last gasp of a conservative movement that's become smaller and less-welcome every year. The generation after me was born into a world where queer acceptance was the norm, and no matter what they do, the anti-queer lobby simply doesn't have the cultural influence to control their kids' thoughts. They can lash out with draconian laws, even encourage more hate crimes, but at the end of the day the hardest battle has already been won for us. We just need to leverage the already-existing support and make sure the reactionaries don't take anyone else down with them.
@tbug50 Many do. However, despite the 30 Years War, Christians still maintain that a Creator God is more than a personal belief, but rather an objective reality. I think to those people homosexuality means crossing a line between human and divine.
@@metaggritI don’t think the bible plays that big a role. They find gay people a bit icky without the bible telling them what to do, the bible’s just an excuse to prop up their dumb beliefs, i don’t think it’s the reason of the homophobia at all, more like it justifies it to them. However, clearly sinning can’t be that bad, as eating shell Shiah and wearing clothes made of more than one material are also sins.
@TheLegend-ky2he well the mixing of clothes and the eating of animals that occupy 2 or more terrains was symbolic of how Israel wasn't supposed to mix with the nations around them. In other words, they were laws supposed to distinguish Israel as God's people. But in the New Testament, one evolution that Christ brought about was the gathering of nations together within the church. In other words, God's people were no longer defined as a nation or race but as a community of people who believed in Christ and chose to follow the New Covenant in Christ's blood. So you can't compare homosexuality to those other laws. Those other laws were determined by Paul and other Christian leaders at the first council to be irrelevant in terms of literal application. Whereas homosexuality was still condemned by early Christian leaders. They grounded their logic in the creation account; not in following Torah. Because God made humans male and female, and in Paul's mind He also made marriage, Christians still need to marry just on person of the opposite sex. As whether or not the Bible plays a role in someone's belief system is up to them. But let's give beliefs the benefit of the doubt. Whether we disagree with a liberal or conservative or neither, it's important to not assume people believe something cause they be dumb. Rather, it's best to assume they have real reasons and are grounded in their beliefs in some way. This way, we can have good discussion.
@@noahmay7708the American one, as hank so helpfully clarified in the end of the video. Imo it applies everywhere but there’s cultural differences and America specifically is supposedly built on the idea of equality and personal freedom. You know, the whole subject of the video.
@@TartarusHimself I mean, its not like America is the only country that is having debates about the lgbt community. Countries like Qa'tar and Uganda still execute gay people, so it's not fair to say that this battle for equality is just in America
@@jaziliynn its an american making an issue about the oppression that the Americans LGTBT+ faced during the marriage debate so its obv only about America
@@jaziliynn as far as i'm aware america is the only country that has regressed this significantly, gay marriage being legalised and now called back into question a couple of years later
Of course. Legal or political debates don’t just end when bills or laws are passed. After gay marriage got legalized the homophobes won’t just disappear. In fact, they become more fervent because they feel some sort of right of theirs has been violated.
@@connorgrynol9021 which is wild because, like... nothing changed for them. the straights can still get married. gays getting married didn't infringe on that. like why can't they just take several seats?
We're still arguing about it now. The US Supreme Court is probably going to overturn Obergefell at some point in the near future, a whole bunch of state bans will come back into effect and there will be a push on the right to ban same-sex marriage nationally. I'm sure they're going to say "we were OK with it but the gay and trans just went too far and made us mad," etc. etc. The fight never ends.
"Bigotry is recycled hate" Transphobia is recycled homophobia is recycled racism is recycled patriarchy. They never stopped arguing against "the other", the world just hopefully moves past the bigots. Though I'm not sure America can do that now.
Mhm. Gay marriage wasn't the law of the land until 2015. It's very easy to miss just how recent queer rights are but like... when I came out as nonbinary six years ago, the very concept was bizarre to even many binary trans folks. Just 6 years ago! Now I barely have to explain it to anyone at all, though admittedly I'm in an extremely blue city. Edit: fixed year.
Hank, I know you probably don't read comments on old videos (I wouldn't.) But I want you to know that this video genuinely changed my mind on this subject. I was an extremely religious person (not anymore, but that's not relevant), but you articulated your points in a way that really made me stop and think about why I felt the way I did. I don't want to be dramatic, but you and John really did change my life. Y'all challenged me to think about my beliefs and I'm a much better person for that. I think about people and issues in more complex ways thanks to yall and I want to thank you both for that. If you see this, please pass the message onto John that you both made me a better person. Also, if you could tell him that his perspective video helped me get through some really tough times, I would appreciate it. Thank you again. DFTBA
@@123net-c4w the fun thing is that we are strangers who likely live thousands of miles away so I'm offering in theory but pretty clearly not taking steps to actually do it
I first realized who I was attracted to at 11 years old, I had known that I liked men, but that was more of an expectation, a prediction than a fact. I developed a crush on a girl of my age, she was a bit taller than me, athletic, and we were usually partnered together because I sucked at sports and she was a good coach. I remember I'd stay after school to watch her play volleyball in the school gym. I've never told anyone this til now. My family presumably thinks me being bi is a phase or something of the sort. It ain't.
Yup sounds like me, "totally straight" when I was a teenager despite in retrospect definitely having a crush on one girl when I was about 15. 24 now and I know I'm bisexual. Compulsory heterosexuality is real dog.
One of the things that helped me figure out I was gay was how much I enjoyed watching a boy in high school who was a year older than me, shooting basketball. I fantasized about him for years.
I had no idea Hank was bi! And considering the sudden interest in this video, neither had a lot of people. But it's good, many guys have more trouble admitting to their bi/pansexuality compared to women - role models are fantastic!
When I was a Christian, my argument was "Gay people already have the same rights as straight people: the right to get married to a person of the opposite sex. If their preferences don't align with that, that's their problem." I cringe when I think about that version of myself.
@@davidkovacic3422 the statement ignores that gay people don't have the right to "marry the person they actually love" though, that's where's the inequality.
@@MrLEADshed why do you need marriage? If youre gay, you dont believe in God, so you dont believe in marriage. Doesnt make any sense. Also you cant love someone who is same sex/gender as you, its just impossible
@@davidkovacic3422 legal reasons + yes you can and i'm an example lol. like, my parents are atheists yet they are still married, like, what is your logic?
Watching this now fills me with such joy. It's a really special thing to know Hank Green was so vocal about gay rights back in 2012. It's also really heartwarming to hear the tidbits about gender identity in there. Hank is such a genuinely amazing person. Without people like him, people like me (don't like to rock the boat) would never be brave enough to be themselves
+dhodz hoddy Well, you can take up the banner for incest, if you want. I won't question, it's not my place to judge, provided you're both consenting adults. Although I will point out that most incestuous relationships are incredibly, inherently abusive (both parties are often not consenting adults), whereas most homosexual relationships are not.
Ha ha ha, that didn't even remotely have anything to do with what I said. Me: "Incest is harmful, homosexuality isn't". You: "I BET YOU LOVE WOODY ALLEN THEN HUH #DUMBHASHTAG." What a silly little person you are.
+Robert Miles +dhodz hoddy Most incestuous relationships are between cousins of similar age, and not abusive. Please be careful with generalizations. As for children, they are restricted under the law in many ways that adults are not, for everything from access to drugs, to driving, to sometimes even truancy and curfew laws, so the restriction on marriage is not noteworthy in that particular case. Restrictions on polygamy, polyandry, and polyamory in general may also loosen over time, which is not necessarily a bad thing. What matters most in a relationship is that everyone who is part of it be informed and approves of the situation. The enemies of healthy relationships are inequality, ignorance/secrecy, and discontent. If the government has a role in this, I believe it should be to prevent unequal and exploitative relationships where one partner lacks the authority or experience to challenge another, due to age, species, or other issues. However, this does have plenty of grey areas. For example: Should a person with brain damage who will forever be somewhat innocent and helpless be prohibited from marrying or having sex with a healthy person? It would be hard for such a relationship to be equal and completely healthy, but prohibiting it seems deeply unfair for the disabled person. As always, the world is complex, and there are no easy and clean solutions.
The great thing is that it's against my religion to NOT let that same couple marry. So this flawed application of religious freedom, when applied fairly across all religions, makes the argument even MORE absurd. This is usually the part where they start with the whole "well, when the 1st amendment said no religious laws, it didn't REALLY mean that because America was founded on the principles of Christianity, even though it's mentioned nowhere on the Constitution and outright contradicted by the Founding Fathers' recorded statements on the matter!" Or something.
Rachael Lefler Plus, there is a vast gulf of difference between "inspired by some Biblical values" and "the the entire Bible is secretly the real Constitution."
+Alex Franklin Your religion is basically the diet in the analogy. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you should oppress others because they don't follow the same beliefs. Just as if you're on a diet you shouldn't limit what other people can't eat either.
Yeah see the issue comes when someone can say to a pastor, "I'll sue you if you refuse to conduct a Christian marriage for me and my gay lover in your church." When you make it a right it means they can demand it, and religious freedom cannot legally interfere with a persons rights; for instance you can't tell a black man he can't be baptized in your church (not that, that's a thing). The only way to protect everyone's rights in this matter is to separate civil unions from religious marriages, where a civil union is a legal commitment, and marriage is a personal commitment. this murky crossover is exactly the sort of thing that inspired the separation of church and state to begin with; to protect people from spiritual authorities they do not believe in, and to protect religions from interference from the government.
See, I like this, because you not only presented the concern, but also a logical conclusion that made clear that there were ways to take the rights of both into consideration. Good job.
@@hollyevans7842 He's mentioned it multiple times over the years very casually and it's just not ever treated enough like a big deal for people to take notice lol But it became a big deal on Twitter this week.
I was so scared of being gay when I was 13 that I suppressed it by being a hateful bigot until I was 19/20, and I wish I'd been myself sooner. It took so much unpacking to realize I'd lost myself because I didn't want my parents to hate me. I'm 24 now and they know. They don't accept it but haven't disowned me. They're those "don't shove it down our throats" people, but being proud to be gay is shoving it down their throat. I refuse to be ashamed, though. I'm not going to pretend to be anyone else for their sake.
I wish you the best going forward. I've known I was queer since ~middle/high school, and I'm am well into college now. Still haven't come out to 90% of the people in my life but it makes me hopeful to see the resilience of other gay/ queer people. I wish us all a much kinder future
I’m really happy you’re able to not just accept who you are, but be proud of it, it’s really amazing to see. I hope you have a particularly nice day :)
yeah, we hate people who don’t want it shoved down their throats! they better get used to it! BECAUSE: “WE’RE COMING FOR YOUR CHILDREN!!” Gay people have become so stupid with empowerment that they pretty much deserve everything they get.
I’m sorry that you’re in the situation where your parents seem to be choosing their pride over your happiness and their relationship with you, I certainly can relate to that. While it’s a horrendous situation to navigate and no one will ever come out as a winner, I hope that either they are exposed to something that’ll finally open their eyes or that you are able to find a peace with the situation that allows you to be authentically you in a safe way. Best wishes to you
Mark Wilkie And thats led to mass starvation, thousands and thousands of children being in adoption centers and foster homes, high unemployment rates, resource scarcity in some areas, a plethora of STD’s, the list goes on.
“This country was founded in a separation between church and state!” - thank you thank you for connecting those things that’s all the argument you need 🏳️🌈
I think the saying "it takes twice as long to fix a problem than it took to make the problem" applies here... Discrimination has been an issue for a *MUCH* longer time in human history than equality/civil rights have been a political movement.
actually before covid we was getting better, but then it got worse because people become more chronically online. So time will only tell if things will get better because it this point it could go either way
Super late on this, but why does any religious group feel like they somehow own the institution of marriage? It existed long before Christians did, for instance.
Even if it was purely "owned" by Christianity, who's to say it can't change? Marriage itself is just a made up concept by people, so people can change it if they want to.
I think it's the fact that both governments and religions exist as a method of control. Now one is clearly better than the other but at some point both have to address _every_ issue their followers or citizens will have, which includes marriage.
@@Duskbound I wouldn't even say one is better than the other, they both seem to consistently push back on our rights to be ourselves, also both have committed horrendous atrocities in the name of their ideas (the crusades and jihads, capitalism, colonialism, fascism, communism, monarchism) they literally have no use other than adding structure, but they aren't even good at that.
12 years later, getting a Hank rant across my feed about gay marriage has brought me great joy. Hank’s passion for science and his empathy for humans collided in the best way in this vlog
It's awesome to look back on this video and see what all has changed on that front since then. I'll never forget how hard my parents hugged me when the ruling came through. They were finally going to be able to see their only son get married.
That's a re-definition of an old term and an even older concept. All you're doing is tearing down a tradition you don't understand. And that is always the most dangerous kind of tradition to destroy.
There should be a law against it. If you believe in marriage with just a guy and a girl, cool, that's your problem. But you shouldn't force others not to get married because you think it's wrong. Let there be the option.
@@ProtoSteward marriage is a legal status bruh thats abt all it ever was for the government- It was never sanctimonious, if it was you wouldnt have to sign a legal document to do it. All the meaning you derive from it is from yourself and yourself alone
"The Bible prohibits gay marriage and homosexuality" "The Quran prohibits pork and the consumption of other unclean creatures like shellfish" Your religious books' ancient rules (based on superstitions) does not dictate how we live our lives.
And the people who want to use them as an excuse need to be aware that the strictures in the bible about a man lying with a man are in the OLD TESTAMENT, and do NOT apply to Christians, just like the kosher laws that are also found in the same part, that is in the Book of Leviticus. If they'll eat pork and shrimp, but don't want those two gay men to get married, they are HYPOCRITES.
Actually, most schools of Islamic jurisprudence permit the eating of (most) shellfish, except for the Hanafi school. I suspect you're thinking of the Torah. 🙂
I've grown up in a religious community where everything is black and white. But as I've gotten older, I've seen the reality of grey in the world. Hank, I really appreciate people like you standing up and protecting people's rights. I think it's wrong to oppress the rights of others just because we disagree. if someone disagrees with gay marriage, don't have a gay marriage. It's like if you live in Colorado or Washington and are mad that they legalized pot. Just don't smoke it!
I've been a nerdfighter since at least 2013, but I was part of a religion that is homophobic. As of two years ago, I am no longer homophobic (I never really wanted to be in the first place), and now I'm even more grateful for Hank and John showing me that it was possible to think differently than I did.
congrats to you, I bet it feels good to be able to think for yourself. As someone who was raised very open minded I can’t imagine what it’s like to overcome such rigid rules as to how you should think your whole life, I think it’s impressive and inspiring to see people like you who can get out of that!
the same book of the bible that says gay people are an abomination also states that menstruating is unforgivable unless the woman brings a turtle to the temple to be forgiven. stop trying to pick and choose beliefs whenever you feel like it homophobes
+ I felt it is very similar to what John said in Crash Course World History: "Truth resists simplicity". The true realities is always more complicated than the realities in our mind.
I'm not sure if I really agree with that. The universe cannot be inherently complex. It can have enough layers of simplicity that the appearance is one of complexity, but in the end it's still just a lot of simplistic thing out together. Like how flipping a coin only have 2 results, but if you flip enough coins it becomes complicated because of the sheer number of possible outcomes.
@@i_Iove_God Oh, is this a book club thing? Let my contribute. _"For one thing, he hated the summer holidays more than any other time of year."_ _Harry Potter And The Prisoner of Azkaban, Chapter One.
I'm also a former homophobic Christian, now an aroace Christian who affirms and celebrates the whole LGBTQ+ community! I think not allowing for a God who creates so many ways to love and be in the world was very foolish and shortsighted of me and those around me, considering we claim to believe "God is love"
Very well said! Too many people cite the Bible as a source for their ideas against gay marriage. Christianity isn't the official religion of the US or the world.
cchsram13 Yes, but we were also founded upon the ideas of freedom of religion and the separation of church and state. Religion has no place in lawmaking.
TheSoccerKitten It may not, but the very ideals and morals of our country were set up by the views of Christians, so then why would we want to deviate from that?
cchsram13 But that was hundreds of years ago. Today, the US is a potpourri of religious backgrounds and cultures. The ideals of one religion shouldn't be the basis of the laws today, since religion is (in theory) kept separate.
cchsram13 allowing gays to settle down doesn't force us to deviate from the "Ideals and morals" of US history. The framers were (nearly) unanimous in not wanting any theocratic ties to any church because they had dealt with such things in the UK and didn't like the results. What you believe to be the US perspective was actually the ignorance of various legislators who misconstrued or intentionally lied about the intentions of the framers and the philosophical secular underpinnings that make our country unique and great. More broadly, people were tortured to death for centuries for discovering the true nature of the world, and I'm getting really sick of people who try to play it off as if we're not having the SAME ARGUMENT over and over again throughout history. Just let it go, leave people alone, it's not your business, it was never your business. You can't force people to live their lives according to some vague notion of the "good ol' days" that you have in your own subjective mind. It's crap. It's all crap.
To all the opposers i ask the following: A 20-yr old woman Samantha has fallen in love with another 20 yr girl Agatha, as a result the Samantha's family kicks out Samantha and disowns her from anything to do with them. Samantha and Agatha live happily together for the next 15 years, they love each other, but of course they are not married because there is no legal way of doing it. Samantha has a car accident.... 1) Agatha cannot visit because she is not realated in any way 2) if Sam dies the wealth generated by both agatha and samantha goes to the same family that disowned her. because in the eyes of the law Agatha is in no way related to Samantha.... is that a just law? is that justice?
Matt Elder they didn't get the joke :-) ... in europe especially in eastern europe, agatha is a very common name ... that's the one that came to mind..even tho i am from western europe..
Telling gay people they can't get married because it's against your beliefs is like telling someone they can't eat a biscuit because you're on a diet. There is no logic behind it! It may be uncomfortable for you to see someone eating a biscuit but YOU are the one who chose to go on a diet so you can't expect people to change their eating habbits to suit you. The same goes for banning gay marriage; it may male you uncomfortable, but you are the one who decided to follow a certain religion amd you have no right to make everyone be bound to those rules just for you. It is incredibly selfish.
awd3264 that is completely different. My example was showing that you cant expect people to change their behaviour to suit you. You may not like it but you have to deal with it, because goodness knows they don't like stuff about you and don't try to stop you from being that way.
Dylan DeBord first of all, it was an example. I could use literally any. Like for example, just because a person hates a certain colour, they cant stop other people from wearing it. Second of all, some people think that being gay is bad for people, but that gives then no right to tell you you're not allowed to be gay and get married and be in a relationship. My point is that just because people think something is wrong or bad, that doesnt give them the right to enforce their beliefs on other people. They can believe whatever they want, bit when it comes to actually oppressing people based on your belies, that's when its not OK. Like I said, it was just an example. I could literally use a million others.
I know this is an old video, but it just popped up on my feed, and I am commenting so that hopefully it can appear on more people's feeds. I think the world needs this.
One of the main reasons I've never really understood what reason people have to be homophobic is I don't understand why people care about other people's interpersonal lives so much. I care about LGBTQ+ issues because I care about any community who's being oppressed and discriminated against, so even though I'm straight and cis, I think it's important to be an ally. However, if you don't feel that way, why do you feel the need to be homophobic? How does it even affect you? Same-sex partners aren't running around wild in the streets being "deviants" or whatever else could be so scary. Why do you care who they're dating and/or sleeping with? It's none of your business who your fellow heterosexuals are screwing, so why does it affect you so much when non-hetero people have relationships? Are they just supposed to live a life in isolation? As for marriage, marriage itself is unnatural. It's not some higher moral result where everyone should end up. It's just another ritual that people created! If same sex marriage is so unnatural, then hetero marriage is too!
That would be how a philosopher or anthropologist might look at the issue, but most people actually value the particular institutions of their culture and regard them as more than just the result of tradition, habit, or consensus. They imbue their practices with moral value and thus they have meaning peculiar to themselves, and so to tell them they are wrong and force them to act otherwise is a violation of their conscience and their liberty. You are depriving them of the freedom to live their lives in their own way, just as the church condemns homosexuality as a sin and forbids gays from being married. The difference is the church doesn't force you to not be gay or not get married outside of it, though the government might force churches to admit and marry gay people. Who is the greater oppressor here?
xxcrysad3000xx I don't recall many people being oppressed for being straight, so I'm not sure what you mean. I can't think of any group of LGBTQ+ individuals assaulting, harassing, or performing hate crimes and murders on the church. It's clear that we're not going to agree or change each other minds, so I'd rather not argue if that's okay with you. I didn't mean to start a fight, only to put out my opinion in the most respectful way I could. And I'm actually a psychologist in training so I take your first sentence as a compliment, thank you.
Marriage is a secular thing, which means it should not discriminate. The fact that it may have started as a religious thing is irrelevant. You can't take that shit seriously, I mean, a separate religion was created solely to allow King Henry VIII to divorce his wife.
+Seto Kaiba I love how you call someone mindless and call them out for being an atheist in the same sentence. Because atheism is basically the only religious belief that is based off of rational thinking instead of prophecy and books. Well, not all of us can be intellectually adequate.
Lyndon Howlett it is a belief about about god(s) thus it is a a religious belief. The belief is just that God doesn't exist, which can't be proven so it is a belief. It is however not a religion.
"why can't gay people be committed without marriage?" putting aside the *symbolic* aspect of marriage, there's also all of the *legal* crap involved. in some states, you can't have anyone but immediate family or spouses stay with you in hospital, or make decisions about your heath in the event that you're unable to. or in the event of your death. in the event of death, unless the person has a death plan and all that, that responsibility usually gets placed on the spouse.. or blood relatives. now imagine you haven't had contact with your blood relatives for years. they don't know you anymore. and suddenly they have full control over what happens to you after death. Like Jennifer Gable, a trans woman who passed expectantly from an anurism. her estranged father had her hair cut, had her dressed in a mans suit, and had her buried under her dead-name. without a single mention of the fact that she had transitioned and changed her name a decade prior Marriage isn't just a symbolic joining of two souls, it has major legal ramifications. and to withhold legal health, life, and safety options from people is immoral, cruel, discriminatory and (if you believe in jesus) the exact opposite of what he would teach
@@frishter Civil partnership doesn't always confer the same rights and obligations, depending on the state, whereas full marriage does because it's federally recognized.
No its pretty clear what Jesus thought about homosexuality....Mark 10:6-9. Jesus said, “From the beginning of creation, 'God made them male and female. ' For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.
@@heavybar3850Wait I thought according to the Bible god didn’t even create women, Adam did, but also that’s just not true, even if he did say that (Which by the way if he did there’s no actual proof, he never wrote anything down, we often just have to trust what people after his time said he said. Second his whole deal was being kind to each other. How is it kind that people kill other people for loving someone? It’s love thy neighbor, not love thy neighbor (unless they are gay)
@@TheNightWatcher1385 "is a contract with the state for household formation" And the state does not have the right to discriminate and say 2 people can't be involved in that contract because of their shared gender.
@@CorvusIsSilly “Household formation” meaning reproduction. The only reason the state is involved with marriage is because the state has a vested interest in making sure the next generation of laborers and taxpayers gets made. It has no obligation to recognize a coupling that can do no such thing, even in principle.
@@TheNightWatcher1385 You're silly. I also think this might be a good time to mention that my parents are the same gender. Anyways, what about all of the straight+married people who don't have kids? Sounds like their marriage is less valid than my parents'. My source, you (hypothetically) ask? You. You are my source.
@@CorvusIsSilly “What about all the straight married people who don’t have kids.” There’s little reason for them to be married outside of taking advantage of tax breaks (which are meant to encourage reproduction in the first place btw) or because they’re using their marriage as merely a social fashion accessory.
@@frishter In just the US there are currently laws being passed that are blocking therapy, horomones, and gender affirming surgeries. Some are banning drag shows, and some are even trying to ban trans people from being mentioned in schools. There is also a law that legally allows a trans person to be killed if they were about to have sex with someone and didn't tell them they were trans beforehand.
@@veevolt492 Yeah, sucks that children can't have treatment that will affect the entirety of their life and become lifelong patients instead of waiting for their identities to fully form and make decisions over their bodies once they're adults... Drag shows wouldn't need to be age restricted if we just had common sense, but unfortunately we already have examples that are blatantly inappropriate for kids. Age restrictions are not a new concept, it's just some people are outraged that they can't target kids, I wonder why... I very much doubt that there's any law that legalises murder, however I would 100% support not disclosing that you're trans to a partner being a criminal offence. If you're trans, you should want someone that would be accepting of that anyway and so no need to deceive people. If the only "rights" at risk is not targeting children, then I'm fine with that.
To encourage you, in Australia in 2017, we had a marriage equality survey. If all had voted, 77.5% would have supported it and only 22% were against. That was a landslide victory and marriage equality was passed by the Parliament and put into the law before the end of that year. Common sense prevailed.
I am Christian. Don't freak out. I think that if Jesus were alive today, that he would want us to treat homosexual people just as heterosexual people. I think that God does not judge others, and if "them gays are sinners" then we should forgive them and let them go as they please. I think that they deserve equal rights. Also, when others argue the argument that homosexuals have a choice, just think of it like this: "Oh, I have a great idea! I'm going to choose to be hated be much of the world and possibly be shunned by my family and society just because I want to! This is a great idea!" I just think that they don't have a choice and that if you are truly religious that you should love every person, whether you agree with their way of life or not, because God would say that we should love others. As said by kitkat mat (Asked me to add this) "There are many people who are both Christian and Homosexual who wish to marry there significant other and have that union recognized by their church. Many Christian churches (as well as of course churches of different religions) have recently become more accepting of the LGBTQPA community, and something important to understand is that nothing can stay the same forever. The Christian religion has evolved quite a bit since its origin, (considering that the Bible says that it's our duty to stone adulterers and burn witches as mentioned in many comments here, and obviously murder and stoning is a very bad thing to do I hope we agree on that.) The principle of marriage shouldn't be dictated by any one party for many reasons (this is my own opinion). One is that when one assigns a one definition of marriage and uses that as an excuse to oppress or limit any individual's or group of people's religious and/or spiritual freedoms, it is no longer a question of law, but of morality and ethics. Rather, marriage is defined by those taking part in the union. Taking this into consideration I can't tell you that your definition of marriage is wrong just because I have a different one. It may be one person's belief that marriage is a means to expand wealth and profit, and another person that believes that marriage is for attraction and mutual respect. I cannot say (without sounding like an idiot) that all people who marry, do so for the latter reason. Bit of a tangent there, but the point I'm trying to make is that your definitions of marriage may conflict with mine, but.... I DON"T GIVE A **** :) food for thought."
Y'know, being gay is totally a choice. If I had the chance, I'd totally choose to be outcast from society and tormented my entire life because I love somebody.
It is 7:10 PM on June 8th 2023 and TH-cam recommended this masterpiece to me for the first time. I love how he says sexuality and gender don’t have lines and are grey. The transphobes should remember that. Hank, Thank you for being a friend. Thank you for being around.
It's crazy to me that 11 years ago, this was a big deal, and It's still a thing stupid people in politics are arguing about. Love should not be political or religious. Love is love
@@sunwukong32 why do you care? why do you care what other people do with their lives? How does it affect you (or anyone else )? You didn't even coherently address the point op was making. expand. what do you mean?
I think he could have added to the "unnatural" arguement. There are many (like over 100) species of animals that have homosexuality in them, and they literally cause no harm to others or the species as a whole, AND WE ARE ONE OF THEM.
2:16 "Ah, that makes sense to me! Why does that make so much sense to me? It does. Whatever. It must be true. It makes sense." Ladies and gentlemen, the TH-cam comment section in a nutshell.
I'm fine with people being "against" gay marriage if it goes against their religion or whatever. So long as they don't insist that the government deserves to have any say in the matter, because that is just straight up bullshit.
This is the point of view more people need to take. You can believe whatever the hell you want, just keep your nose out of other peoples' lives. If it doesn't directly affect you in a negative way, butt out. I applaud you.
what a funny thing to say. nazi's holocaust didn't directly affect those who aren't jewish.. why did we stopped them? a murder who kill idiots don't affect u. do u care if he's loose?
obviously u arent married.. no, but do we idle by and do nothing while others do bad things? and do we do nothing to help those less fortunate and in need?
Jief Yang, you have just compared gay marriage to the Holocaust. Anything you say from here on out will be just as ludicrous and treated as the gospel of a simple minded fool. Thanks for playing.
I remember when I was younger I was basically a bigot. I didn't get gay people or lesbians and I didn't even know that trans people existed. I lived in a very hardcore conservative christian part of the U.S so that is not very surprising. But today I am a very different man. I support the LGBTQ+ community I myself am Bi and I can definitely say that I am a more happy person now. I just wanted to share a bit about my life right quick thank you for reading this if you do.
Woot! Same. I also didn't know trans people even existed... except for "cross-dressers" and Thai kathoey, which I assumed were victims of abuse or trafficking. Seemed like a fate worse than death, which made it really frikkin hard to come out as trans to myself! 😅 I hope the coming generations will have better access to positive queer representation.
Wow. Watching this 12 years after it was uploaded. And the arguments he presented are as solid and as relevant today as they have been forever. Glad I ran into this video.
@@Teneab Would you like the statistics on gays and minor sexual assaults first or the one on lesbian abuse statistics? Oh, or the STD rates. Those are fun.
@@Teneab can't link websites on TH-cam so I will just say the site like you would speak it. Science Direct. 32% of lgbt young people report forced sexual contact compared to 11% general pop. National library of medicine 2015 study showed emotional problems being over twice as prevalent for children with lgbt parents.
I love all the people coming back 12 years later saying “hey, I was stupid back then when I first saw this, thank you.” I never said it, but I said some pretty stupid stuff because I was taught it was wrong on a religious and biological level. It took me forever to realize it, but I’m bi, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Thank you for making this!
Genuine answer: He didn’t. It’s like asking why God makes someone sin, He doesn’t. Sin and temptation entered the world during the fall and it impacts everyone in different ways. People aren’t “born gay”. It’s a decision that they consciously make in sin. Now disclaimer, it’s not my place to judge someone for what they believe or don’t believe. I will however openly share what I believe and why cause I genuinely care for people to find the truth and the good news of the Gospel❤
Thumbs up for privatization of marriage! Get the government out of marriage and let people decide for themselves what love and marriage is for themselves!
I disagree, Ms. Peña. Because if the state just had civil unions to cover the legal ramifications that a contract must have to be binding and toss out legalistic matrimony off the books. People would be satisfied.
This video was valid twelve years ago, and it still is today. There's faith and there's facts. It may feel to you that gay marriage is unnatural, but that doesn't make it true. It may feel true to you, and if it does, then don't do it. I don't find men attractive in a sexual way. I don't want to marry men. You know what I do about that? I don't marry men. I also don't marry women anymore, even tho I still find them attractive. Tried that once. It sucked. Should I now insist everyone does what I do? Of course not. You know why? Cuz forcing people to agree w/me would NOT be awesome!
This video and the arguments associated with it are such an example that society can progress when we look back on it in a post marriage equality world. Today, we need a renewal of the solidarity and strength we showed when gay rights were under attack. Our trans brothers and sisters are now the target of hate and oppression. We need you, Hank! The bigots are on the ascent and we have a duty to fight back. To any trans people who come across this: Know you are loved. Know you are valid. Know you are beautiful. Know you are not forgotten. Know that there are so many people who are fighting for you. Those who believe in social justice march on and we will prevail. I know my trans brothers and sisters were on the frontlines of the fight for gay rights. As a gay man, I’ll never forget their solidarity. We can’t abandon our trans brothers and sisters in their time of need. The fight must go on! 🏳️🌈 🏳️⚧️ ❤️
Gay rights are going to come under attack again--it's the next thing after trans rights. The cultural right are feeling their oats, there are demagogic state governments on the attack, and the reactionaries have enough control of the courts in the United States to start rolling things back. We're going to have to do this whole fight over.
As a gay male, seeing this and seeing this video from 11 years ago being so pro labyq+ brings a tear to my eye. I've always loved both the Greens and this just makes my whole day week and month.
This whole video was amazing, but I especially liked the “The whole world is grey, and if you just appreciate that, understand it and appreciate it then it’s beautiful. But if you try to spend your whole life fighting against it, then you’re going to be bitter…” Hank just dropped one of the most profound lines I’ve heard in a long while, and I think it will stick with me :)
All it will take, is for a gay couple who were married in one state to move to a state where it would've been illegal, and then do their taxes. When they fill out the form saying that they are indeed married and turn it in, the state tax authority will reject it, because they can't give tax credit for illegal activity. The couple then sues the tax office, the case (if not settled there) will be brought before the supreme court. Which will then (if they decide to hear it) will rule that it is not unconstitutional for a gay couple to have protection under the law. They will then move to have an amendment pass. This process will take roughly... 2-7 years. But there you have it.
In fact the court case took about 1 year from this comment being posted, and the test cases tended to have to do with funeral arrangements and adoption. But... pretty good prediction. No constitutional amendment though (no way would that ever pass; ratification is just too high a bar). Now the question, I'm afraid, is when this is all going to be overturned and rolled back.
"Why cant gay people just be together without being married?"
Marriage is a legal action. Anything to do with relationships or religion is an addon, but it is first and foremost a binding legal action. It allows you to access things like each other's finances or insurance, and allows you to inherit their possessions. It is a legal action, and denying someone access to a legal action solely because of their identity is insane.
If youre a gay man and your lover is dying of complications from AIDS (which is a problem gay people had to worry about), your lover might not be able to access your health insurance. And they have an unsupportive family (which is also a problem gay people STILL have to worry about), youll also have to worry about their family trying to take their inheritance from you, and since you arent legally bound to them, you would have no way to fight them. Marriage is a legal right and denying it to someone can seriously ruin their life.
THIS. I hate that argument so much as a gay dude. Marriage isn't just a cultural institution, it is a legal agreement that grants powers to the people that have agreed to marry that they would not have otherwise. By allowing such privileges to be given to straight couples but not gay ones, you are by definition degrading equal rights.
It's literally the opposite. Marriage is only a religion ritual and government co-opted it.
They wouldn't be saying that if it was their marriage rights rescinded.
@@pureteddybear_bro I thought you said "as much as a gay dude" 💀💀💀
"Why can't gay people just be together without getting married?"
such a stupid ass argument because i can respond with "Why can't ANYONE just be together without getting married?"
I don’t know what summoned Hank Green being based 12 years ago to my feed, but I am not opposed to it
It’s wild seeing a very young looking Hank who sounds exactly the same and has the same fiery passion for logic and reasoning and compassion, right? I love the guy!
Same
Because people being based is awesome
SAMEEEEEEEE!
Same. Its quite odd but nice to see support in my feed
TH-cam recommended this video to me after watching John's most recent video "How Does He Do It?" and the way Hank discusses gender and sexuality 11 years ago is somehow even more relevant to the laws in the US this month than they were before Marriage Equality was finally enacted. I'm so grateful to have had the chance to grow to understand the world and think of others complexly because of these brothers. Thank you for being the persons you are, and for continuing to share your nuanced thoughts with us for so much of your lives, Monsieurs Green. DFTBA
@MickeyMouse-lm6zj oh shut up. You thinking it isnt normal, just shows that you dont know anything about it.
@@MickeyMouse-lm6zjok chud
@@MickeyMouse-lm6zj wow, that might be the dumbest thing I've ever heard. First of all, there are plenty of things we accept that aren't "normal." No other species on the planet has a religion. No other species on the planet has a language. No other species on the planet forges metal. No other species on the planet builds rockets. No other species on the planet has been to the moon. These things aren't "normal" and they are amazing. You know what a shit ton of other animals have? Gender and sexual diversity. That is far more normal than 99% of the things that humans do on a regular basis.
You couldn't even stop there. You had to say "people will start identifying as animals," despite the fact that humans are literally animals. We are in the kingdom of animalia. Unless you're a single celled organism, a plant, or a fungus, you're a fucking animal. You have mitochondria, you're multicellular, you lack cell walls, and you respirate. That makes you an animal.
When you have to tell yourself that every single scientist on the fucking planet is stupid while your uneducated prejudice is the real intelligence, you're just making excuses for being stupid. Simple as.
@@MickeyMouse-lm6zj Why?
@@MickeyMouse-lm6zj Your opinion has been heard and then promptly shoved down the garbage disposal.
If atheists, Muslims, Jews, Indians, buddists and people of other religions can get married, then people shouldn’t be allowed to use religion as an argument against it since marriage isn’t just a Christian concept
Muslim can get a Bacha Bazi boy.
i love how this implies that being indian is a religion
@@liliannevalleyI stg it’s like people don’t *want* to know what Hinduism or Islam is.
@@AntoinesCorner I can guarantee you most Christians don’t know that Jesus is a prophet in Islam. I’m not religious myself, I just like theology.
Girl did u just say indian is a religion 💀
I love that I just got recommended this video where I left a comment 6 years ago saying I didn’t agree with homosexuality on a religious basis… I’m bi. And I’m a girl that has a trans wife. And I’m happier than that homophobe ever was
*squealing in queer* happy for u and sending love ur way!
Congrats on your personal growth!
we were all at that stage once, don't be ashamed of it. hell, even i was. young minds are easily manipulated by hateful beliefs.
congratulations on finding yourself and a lover :)
To paraphrase a famous video game dragon: is it more noble to be born on the side of good, or to have overcome one’s evil nature/past to do good? Truly, it takes strength to do something like that and tell others about it. Best of luck to you both!
@@duckified. fr though
"So two gay people who love each other can't get married but two straight people who hate each other can?"
"Yes, that's what we raised you to believe."
- Family Guy
I never got into Family Guy’s humor, but that quote is gold. Thanks for posting it
I mean this is sorta cold but what does love have to do with marriage at all? Like ideally we want to marry someone we love but simply making a commitment to someone you love isn’t the purpose of marriage
@@michaelvigil3436i guess the purest form of love transcends things like marriage. Mostly because marriage was a way to I presume(based on what I know of history) seek off women to rich men to make the rest of the family money.
@@greglynas52 Arguably the purest form of love is that between a parent and their child yet they don’t need to get married to demonstrate this love. Marriage was designed to keep parents together to raise their children, it was a practical solution to a societal issue
@@michaelvigil3436 I agree
When I was a 12 year old I realized I was bisexual and I was terrified. This video helped me for years. I would go back to it. It's one of the first pieces of content that made me sure there wasn't something wrong with me.
Jasmine, you are cool. 😊❤
Hell yeah Jasmine
I remember reddit showing me atheism is entirely normal/whatever. You be you, if you're not hurting anybody then go ahead! If you love somebody and are able to show them so, please go ahead even harder!
you are seen and you are loved 💛💖 glad you're here
There is something wrong there. Just be glad you can still like your own gender.
When this video came out I was a young homophobic boy, now I’m a full grown lesbian woman lmao
uh same but pan lol
@@theiaraine It be like that sometimes
Pulled the old switcheroo 😂
You switched sides two times lol
@@cherenkov_blue the little flip-flop
"The most natural thing in the world is complexity" - that's a good quote.
+
If complexity were "natural" it wouldn't be "complex".
Sure it would.
@@riverebec1 "If complexity were "natural" it wouldn't be "complex"."
what does this even mean?
the human body is incredibly complex, and that goes for just about every living thing.
the weather is also incredibly complex.
the same goes for almost very piece of our universe.
the things you could consider the least complex are things like atoms.
if you're looking at surface level features, than yeah, you could consider things to not be complex.
but anything you can see with the human eye is made up of thousands of individual parts that each have thousands of individual parts of their own
And then strangely they went and renamed their company based on that concept.
I’m endlessly obsessed with the “it’s unnatural” argument. “I don’t like it because it’s unnatural!” Yeah well so are streets and cities and houses and cheetos and you don’t seem to have a problem with those.
Especially with the cheetos
Oh cheetos are absolutely natural. Have you never seen a cheeto bush???
not to mention that homosexuality has been proven time and time again to be commonplace in nature
So you are admitting that it is unnatural....? Isn't that unhealthy to normalize for children. Once you go down the "so what?!" route, you open to anything. Standards are important...
@@seanchaney3086 well no of course it’s natural to be gay. The purpose of my argument is to point out the inherently fallacious quality of the “appeal to nature”. Like if I were to claim that heterosexuality is unnatural the same argument would apply - anybody can claim anything is “unnatural” and that claim falls hollow because who gives a dusty darn dang about what’s natural? What’s natural is pooping in the woods and dying before you turn 30.
It’s just an argument that works within the framework of your interlocutor. The point is that, even if it were unnatural, which it certainly isn’t, that argument would still not work.
I come from a country where gay marriage is legal for a long time, and my aunt is married to a woman, so I grew up with it. You know, when you grow up with it, it's not weird at all. You know what my aunt said when I asked her as a kid about it? She said: I fall in love with the person, not with the gender.
I myself see it as a natural thing too, though I didn't grew up with it.
Pan aunt
Natural? Imagine if this would be “normal” we would die out. Everything once true and normal is today weird and complicated.
@@Lion_Hamza gay people are in the minority. Just because they’re allowed to live their lives doesn’t mean humanity is going to die out. It’s not like banning gay marriage is going to make them straight
Sure, and animals don’t choose mates based on gender they just fall in love with the mating calls… oh wait….
Just found this video, amidst all the anti-trans nonsense. I remember fighting for marriage equality in Ohio back then... It's really heartwarming to see that Hank was recognizing the complexity of gender even then. 😊
It's terrifying that we're actually facing a rollback on gay marriage rights.
@@theybybaby-gz7rp Huh. I haven't heard anything about that. Hard to keep up with all the horrible things happening right now, especially with the 500+ anti-trans bills introduced in 49 states this year. I can't even tell you what all of them say, because... Who could? It's too many! I know 16 states have taken away trans rights in one form or another, mostly for trans kids, but some adults have been impacted. I've also heard that drag performers are being used as cannon fodder to police people's gender expression like it's the friggin' 1950s, but... What is going on with marriage equality??? *Sighs in Bi/Trans*
Truly. I hate when people act like 11 years ago was somehow a different era where everyone was just a bigot by default.
That last part 🥺🏳️🌈🙏
The good news is that this is mainly the last gasp of a conservative movement that's become smaller and less-welcome every year. The generation after me was born into a world where queer acceptance was the norm, and no matter what they do, the anti-queer lobby simply doesn't have the cultural influence to control their kids' thoughts. They can lash out with draconian laws, even encourage more hate crimes, but at the end of the day the hardest battle has already been won for us. We just need to leverage the already-existing support and make sure the reactionaries don't take anyone else down with them.
This popped up in my feed (11 years later) and the fact that this is still kinda an issue is scary as hell
Maybe it's still an issue because many people still disagree with Hank's views
@@metaggritThose people should probably learn what ‘separation of church and state’ mean
@tbug50 Many do. However, despite the 30 Years War, Christians still maintain that a Creator God is more than a personal belief, but rather an objective reality. I think to those people homosexuality means crossing a line between human and divine.
@@metaggritI don’t think the bible plays that big a role. They find gay people a bit icky without the bible telling them what to do, the bible’s just an excuse to prop up their dumb beliefs, i don’t think it’s the reason of the homophobia at all, more like it justifies it to them. However, clearly sinning can’t be that bad, as eating shell Shiah and wearing clothes made of more than one material are also sins.
@TheLegend-ky2he well the mixing of clothes and the eating of animals that occupy 2 or more terrains was symbolic of how Israel wasn't supposed to mix with the nations around them. In other words, they were laws supposed to distinguish Israel as God's people. But in the New Testament, one evolution that Christ brought about was the gathering of nations together within the church. In other words, God's people were no longer defined as a nation or race but as a community of people who believed in Christ and chose to follow the New Covenant in Christ's blood.
So you can't compare homosexuality to those other laws. Those other laws were determined by Paul and other Christian leaders at the first council to be irrelevant in terms of literal application. Whereas homosexuality was still condemned by early Christian leaders. They grounded their logic in the creation account; not in following Torah. Because God made humans male and female, and in Paul's mind He also made marriage, Christians still need to marry just on person of the opposite sex.
As whether or not the Bible plays a role in someone's belief system is up to them. But let's give beliefs the benefit of the doubt. Whether we disagree with a liberal or conservative or neither, it's important to not assume people believe something cause they be dumb. Rather, it's best to assume they have real reasons and are grounded in their beliefs in some way. This way, we can have good discussion.
It's sad society has regressed that this video is again "controversial". Stay intelligent, and wildly ahead of your time Hank. Lots of love.
which society?
@@noahmay7708the American one, as hank so helpfully clarified in the end of the video. Imo it applies everywhere but there’s cultural differences and America specifically is supposedly built on the idea of equality and personal freedom. You know, the whole subject of the video.
@@TartarusHimself I mean, its not like America is the only country that is having debates about the lgbt community. Countries like Qa'tar and Uganda still execute gay people, so it's not fair to say that this battle for equality is just in America
@@jaziliynn its an american making an issue about the oppression that the Americans LGTBT+ faced during the marriage debate so its obv only about America
@@jaziliynn as far as i'm aware america is the only country that has regressed this significantly, gay marriage being legalised and now called back into question a couple of years later
As somebody who was born in 2006, it's kinda world-shattering to realize we were still arguing about gay marriage in 2012
Of course. Legal or political debates don’t just end when bills or laws are passed. After gay marriage got legalized the homophobes won’t just disappear. In fact, they become more fervent because they feel some sort of right of theirs has been violated.
@@connorgrynol9021 which is wild because, like... nothing changed for them. the straights can still get married. gays getting married didn't infringe on that. like why can't they just take several seats?
We're still arguing about it now. The US Supreme Court is probably going to overturn Obergefell at some point in the near future, a whole bunch of state bans will come back into effect and there will be a push on the right to ban same-sex marriage nationally. I'm sure they're going to say "we were OK with it but the gay and trans just went too far and made us mad," etc. etc. The fight never ends.
"Bigotry is recycled hate" Transphobia is recycled homophobia is recycled racism is recycled patriarchy. They never stopped arguing against "the other", the world just hopefully moves past the bigots. Though I'm not sure America can do that now.
Mhm. Gay marriage wasn't the law of the land until 2015. It's very easy to miss just how recent queer rights are but like... when I came out as nonbinary six years ago, the very concept was bizarre to even many binary trans folks. Just 6 years ago! Now I barely have to explain it to anyone at all, though admittedly I'm in an extremely blue city.
Edit: fixed year.
"The bible is not a legal document." is a very important statement.
I dunno.. 10 commandments seem pretty legit to me
@@ninjireallegit not legal but go off
@@ninjireal yeah so believe it or not, what you feel about the ten commandments doesn't really matter
@@vaishnavinayak5917 💨
@@ninjireal I dunno.. our country seems to be founded on the constitution instead of 10 commandments.
Hank, I know you probably don't read comments on old videos (I wouldn't.) But I want you to know that this video genuinely changed my mind on this subject. I was an extremely religious person (not anymore, but that's not relevant), but you articulated your points in a way that really made me stop and think about why I felt the way I did. I don't want to be dramatic, but you and John really did change my life. Y'all challenged me to think about my beliefs and I'm a much better person for that. I think about people and issues in more complex ways thanks to yall and I want to thank you both for that. If you see this, please pass the message onto John that you both made me a better person. Also, if you could tell him that his perspective video helped me get through some really tough times, I would appreciate it. Thank you again. DFTBA
I'm happy for you! Not sure what gender you are but I'd be happy to gay kiss you in honor of your change!
Be proud of yourself, being open minded and willing to change your beliefs is incredibly difficult
Thank you so very much! For growing as a human, growing away from hate
@@Natalie-101 Ok that’s just awkward what if to say this person has herpes man think before you say please.
@@123net-c4w the fun thing is that we are strangers who likely live thousands of miles away so I'm offering in theory but pretty clearly not taking steps to actually do it
I first realized who I was attracted to at 11 years old, I had known that I liked men, but that was more of an expectation, a prediction than a fact. I developed a crush on a girl of my age, she was a bit taller than me, athletic, and we were usually partnered together because I sucked at sports and she was a good coach. I remember I'd stay after school to watch her play volleyball in the school gym. I've never told anyone this til now. My family presumably thinks me being bi is a phase or something of the sort. It ain't.
Yup sounds like me, "totally straight" when I was a teenager despite in retrospect definitely having a crush on one girl when I was about 15. 24 now and I know I'm bisexual. Compulsory heterosexuality is real dog.
One of the things that helped me figure out I was gay was how much I enjoyed watching a boy in high school who was a year older than me, shooting basketball. I fantasized about him for years.
@@wisconsinatIon same
This video is still extremely relevant right now, but instead of gay marriage it's trans rights. Thank you Hank for always being great
love ur profile pic!
Bigotry is recycled hate
Basically. Taking "facts" from a dumb mf who kills your 1st born is stupid as sht
nothing to see here move on to the next minority we can oppress and distract from real issues
@@josephmother2659 i don't really understand your comment. could someone explain what they are talking about please?
As a trans person, hate how relevant this is 11 years later
As a cis person I concur
Yeah.., it’s rough. Good to see someone with a good take for once though at the very least.
@@gem3763 I see plenty of people worn good takes… but I only follow trans positive people so…
As another trans person. I really hope this all blows over and we don’t get f**ked over in the process
Happy pride month
fuckin' felt. transmasc here.
No better time to bring back bisexual icon Hank Greens political rants. Also how come we never made the word hypothetheories happen?
I had no idea Hank was bi! And considering the sudden interest in this video, neither had a lot of people. But it's good, many guys have more trouble admitting to their bi/pansexuality compared to women - role models are fantastic!
@@snazzypazzy I was just about to comment the same thing haha
@@quinevere Great minds and all that
@@snazzypazzywhy do women have a harder time coming out
"the most natural thing in the world is complexity" love you so much Hank
When I was a Christian, my argument was "Gay people already have the same rights as straight people: the right to get married to a person of the opposite sex. If their preferences don't align with that, that's their problem."
I cringe when I think about that version of myself.
I love your old opinion, hope you return to it one day! Much love
@@davidkovacic3422 the statement ignores that gay people don't have the right to "marry the person they actually love" though, that's where's the inequality.
@@MrLEADshed why do you need marriage? If youre gay, you dont believe in God, so you dont believe in marriage. Doesnt make any sense. Also you cant love someone who is same sex/gender as you, its just impossible
Wait what ??? Do you guys think before you type then press the send Button some of you guys are confusing. Preference doesn’t overrule human biology.
@@davidkovacic3422 legal reasons + yes you can and i'm an example lol.
like, my parents are atheists yet they are still married, like, what is your logic?
Watching this now fills me with such joy. It's a really special thing to know Hank Green was so vocal about gay rights back in 2012. It's also really heartwarming to hear the tidbits about gender identity in there. Hank is such a genuinely amazing person. Without people like him, people like me (don't like to rock the boat) would never be brave enough to be themselves
Don't worry 3 years ago Hank, Love Wins.
ClaymorTerorist I upvote the shit out of this
+dhodz hoddy Well, you can take up the banner for incest, if you want. I won't question, it's not my place to judge, provided you're both consenting adults. Although I will point out that most incestuous relationships are incredibly, inherently abusive (both parties are often not consenting adults), whereas most homosexual relationships are not.
Ha ha ha, that didn't even remotely have anything to do with what I said. Me: "Incest is harmful, homosexuality isn't". You: "I BET YOU LOVE WOODY ALLEN THEN HUH #DUMBHASHTAG." What a silly little person you are.
I love seeing this video now cause despite marriage equality happening in the U.S. it's still so relevant
+Robert Miles +dhodz hoddy
Most incestuous relationships are between cousins of similar age, and not abusive. Please be careful with generalizations.
As for children, they are restricted under the law in many ways that adults are not, for everything from access to drugs, to driving, to sometimes even truancy and curfew laws, so the restriction on marriage is not noteworthy in that particular case.
Restrictions on polygamy, polyandry, and polyamory in general may also loosen over time, which is not necessarily a bad thing.
What matters most in a relationship is that everyone who is part of it be informed and approves of the situation. The enemies of healthy relationships are inequality, ignorance/secrecy, and discontent.
If the government has a role in this, I believe it should be to prevent unequal and exploitative relationships where one partner lacks the authority or experience to challenge another, due to age, species, or other issues. However, this does have plenty of grey areas. For example: Should a person with brain damage who will forever be somewhat innocent and helpless be prohibited from marrying or having sex with a healthy person? It would be hard for such a relationship to be equal and completely healthy, but prohibiting it seems deeply unfair for the disabled person.
As always, the world is complex, and there are no easy and clean solutions.
"You can't get married because of my religion."
"You can't have a cookie because I'm on a diet."
The great thing is that it's against my religion to NOT let that same couple marry. So this flawed application of religious freedom, when applied fairly across all religions, makes the argument even MORE absurd. This is usually the part where they start with the whole "well, when the 1st amendment said no religious laws, it didn't REALLY mean that because America was founded on the principles of Christianity, even though it's mentioned nowhere on the Constitution and outright contradicted by the Founding Fathers' recorded statements on the matter!" Or something.
Rachael Lefler Plus, there is a vast gulf of difference between "inspired by some Biblical values" and "the the entire Bible is secretly the real Constitution."
+Alex Franklin Your religion is basically the diet in the analogy. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you should oppress others because they don't follow the same beliefs. Just as if you're on a diet you shouldn't limit what other people can't eat either.
Yeah see the issue comes when someone can say to a pastor, "I'll sue you if you refuse to conduct a Christian marriage for me and my gay lover in your church." When you make it a right it means they can demand it, and religious freedom cannot legally interfere with a persons rights; for instance you can't tell a black man he can't be baptized in your church (not that, that's a thing). The only way to protect everyone's rights in this matter is to separate civil unions from religious marriages, where a civil union is a legal commitment, and marriage is a personal commitment.
this murky crossover is exactly the sort of thing that inspired the separation of church and state to begin with; to protect people from spiritual authorities they do not believe in, and to protect religions from interference from the government.
See, I like this, because you not only presented the concern, but also a logical conclusion that made clear that there were ways to take the rights of both into consideration. Good job.
Hank mentioning hes bi is my fav pride event so far 2023
wait WHAT!!! i just got chills, this is fucking incredible
When did he say that did I miss something????
@@hollyevans7842 He's mentioned it multiple times over the years very casually and it's just not ever treated enough like a big deal for people to take notice lol But it became a big deal on Twitter this week.
That’s so fricking cool
That makes him a better person!!
Wow impressive!!
I was so scared of being gay when I was 13 that I suppressed it by being a hateful bigot until I was 19/20, and I wish I'd been myself sooner. It took so much unpacking to realize I'd lost myself because I didn't want my parents to hate me. I'm 24 now and they know. They don't accept it but haven't disowned me. They're those "don't shove it down our throats" people, but being proud to be gay is shoving it down their throat. I refuse to be ashamed, though. I'm not going to pretend to be anyone else for their sake.
good for you. i'm sorry for the ways that they've hurt you, and i hope you're finding realer, kinder love in your adult life.
I wish you the best going forward. I've known I was queer since ~middle/high school, and I'm am well into college now. Still haven't come out to 90% of the people in my life but it makes me hopeful to see the resilience of other gay/ queer people. I wish us all a much kinder future
I’m really happy you’re able to not just accept who you are, but be proud of it, it’s really amazing to see. I hope you have a particularly nice day :)
yeah, we hate people who don’t want it shoved down their throats!
they better get used to it!
BECAUSE: “WE’RE COMING FOR YOUR CHILDREN!!”
Gay people have become so stupid with empowerment that they pretty much deserve everything they get.
I’m sorry that you’re in the situation where your parents seem to be choosing their pride over your happiness and their relationship with you, I certainly can relate to that. While it’s a horrendous situation to navigate and no one will ever come out as a winner, I hope that either they are exposed to something that’ll finally open their eyes or that you are able to find a peace with the situation that allows you to be authentically you in a safe way. Best wishes to you
I saw the thumbnail to this video and thought something along the lines of "wow, this young fella looks a *lot* like Hank Green".
"The most natural thing in the world is complexity" -Hank Green
YASSSSS
InfinityQuill Man and woman are complimentary and made for each other
Mark Wilkie exactly
Mark Wilkie And thats led to mass starvation, thousands and thousands of children being in adoption centers and foster homes, high unemployment rates, resource scarcity in some areas, a plethora of STD’s, the list goes on.
“This country was founded in a separation between church and state!” - thank you thank you for connecting those things that’s all the argument you need 🏳️🌈
No, it wasn't.
@@riverebec1id get into some long winded argument with you but like
honestly?
just be mad about it I guess
@@riverebec1 Denial isn't gonna change the world, bud.
2012: Discrimination is a problem
2024: Discrimination is a problem
we have truly gone nowhere as a society
I think the saying "it takes twice as long to fix a problem than it took to make the problem" applies here... Discrimination has been an issue for a *MUCH* longer time in human history than equality/civil rights have been a political movement.
actually before covid we was getting better, but then it got worse because people become more chronically online. So time will only tell if things will get better because it this point it could go either way
@@FemboyKaiSaku ya that sounds about true........especially with the rise of the "Anti woke" NPC channels
@@FemboyKaiSaku this better explanation of it
We'll get there man. It's happened before. We can do it again.
Super late on this, but why does any religious group feel like they somehow own the institution of marriage?
It existed long before Christians did, for instance.
One word
"Audacity"
same with crosses, christmas trees, wreaths, etc
Even if it was purely "owned" by Christianity, who's to say it can't change? Marriage itself is just a made up concept by people, so people can change it if they want to.
I think it's the fact that both governments and religions exist as a method of control. Now one is clearly better than the other but at some point both have to address _every_ issue their followers or citizens will have, which includes marriage.
@@Duskbound I wouldn't even say one is better than the other, they both seem to consistently push back on our rights to be ourselves, also both have committed horrendous atrocities in the name of their ideas (the crusades and jihads, capitalism, colonialism, fascism, communism, monarchism) they literally have no use other than adding structure, but they aren't even good at that.
12 years later, getting a Hank rant across my feed about gay marriage has brought me great joy. Hank’s passion for science and his empathy for humans collided in the best way in this vlog
"The bible is not a legal document".
I want that on a T-shirt.
+
+
Literally same.
I like that, I'm going to use it in conversation.
"The bible is still not a legal document"
There's the back of the t-shirt.
“The most natural thing in the world is complexity” is a great line
You are probably the same kind of person who also thinks teens and young adults still jumping inside a bouncy castle sometimes is okay too ;.;
@@orangeorangeorange5075 I mean I don’t think about it often but sure, I do
@@crunchybanana6489 The red cloth table lamp next to the TV you left on in the bedroom upstairs in the dark burned out on you! 😱💀🎃👻👹
@@orangeorangeorange5075 I don't understand your point????
It's awesome to look back on this video and see what all has changed on that front since then. I'll never forget how hard my parents hugged me when the ruling came through. They were finally going to be able to see their only son get married.
+
+
+
+
+
Marriage. A person marrying another person. Let's just leave it at that. No gender regulations.
That's a re-definition of an old term and an even older concept.
All you're doing is tearing down a tradition you don't understand. And that is always the most dangerous kind of tradition to destroy.
ProtoSteward then you can keep your tradition in your own family. Not the whole world.
There should be a law against it. If you believe in marriage with just a guy and a girl, cool, that's your problem. But you shouldn't force others not to get married because you think it's wrong. Let there be the option.
@Joseph Parsons an adult person marrying another adult person
@@ProtoSteward marriage is a legal status bruh thats abt all it ever was for the government- It was never sanctimonious, if it was you wouldnt have to sign a legal document to do it. All the meaning you derive from it is from yourself and yourself alone
Did anyone else just randomly get this recommended in September 2024
I just did lmao
me too 😭i get recommended this every year i love it
Yep
Yup
Of course, it’s another sorta cycle
"The Bible prohibits gay marriage and homosexuality"
"The Quran prohibits pork and the consumption of other unclean creatures like shellfish"
Your religious books' ancient rules (based on superstitions) does not dictate how we live our lives.
And the people who want to use them as an excuse need to be aware that the strictures in the bible about a man lying with a man are in the OLD TESTAMENT, and do NOT apply to Christians, just like the kosher laws that are also found in the same part, that is in the Book of Leviticus. If they'll eat pork and shrimp, but don't want those two gay men to get married, they are HYPOCRITES.
Old testament law doesn't even apply to Christians, only Jews.
these books were written by flawed humans who had no idea what the future would have been like
@@baonemogomotsi7138 homosexuality isn't even a sin, God revealed it to me in a dream.
Actually, most schools of Islamic jurisprudence permit the eating of (most) shellfish, except for the Hanafi school. I suspect you're thinking of the Torah. 🙂
I've grown up in a religious community where everything is black and white. But as I've gotten older, I've seen the reality of grey in the world. Hank, I really appreciate people like you standing up and protecting people's rights. I think it's wrong to oppress the rights of others just because we disagree. if someone disagrees with gay marriage, don't have a gay marriage. It's like if you live in Colorado or Washington and are mad that they legalized pot. Just don't smoke it!
Must be hard only being able to see in black in white.
Hank, I have no words for how great you are.
It would appear that you had ten. lol.
***** That is true
I've been a nerdfighter since at least 2013, but I was part of a religion that is homophobic. As of two years ago, I am no longer homophobic (I never really wanted to be in the first place), and now I'm even more grateful for Hank and John showing me that it was possible to think differently than I did.
We love character development
Thanks for putting in the effort to change. Not enough people do that
Same thing happened to me! But I read Jack Andrakea's "Breakthrough" in 6th grade and that did it for me.
This guy has Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett on his bookshelf, there's a 0% chance he was against gay marriage.
congrats to you, I bet it feels good to be able to think for yourself. As someone who was raised very open minded I can’t imagine what it’s like to overcome such rigid rules as to how you should think your whole life, I think it’s impressive and inspiring to see people like you who can get out of that!
What I never understood is the Bible only mentions gays once and everyone cares there are dozens of other things people just ignore
Like divorce and all that crap? Yeah. Homophobics are also known as hypocrites.
twice, but yeah im gay i agree haha
+Kierstin Thorn That's another thing most people ignore. Hypocrites
the same book of the bible that says gay people are an abomination also states that menstruating is unforgivable unless the woman brings a turtle to the temple to be forgiven. stop trying to pick and choose beliefs whenever you feel like it homophobes
Yeah, like the fact that technically tattoos are an abomination? Come on, people
"The Bible is not a legal document " is genius. Well done, sir.
The Torah may have been the basis for certain law codes in ancient times, but it certainly isn't still in force anywhere today.
"The most natural thing in the world is complexity"
Amen
+
+ I felt it is very similar to what John said in Crash Course World History: "Truth resists simplicity". The true realities is always more complicated than the realities in our mind.
I'm not sure if I really agree with that. The universe cannot be inherently complex. It can have enough layers of simplicity that the appearance is one of complexity, but in the end it's still just a lot of simplistic thing out together. Like how flipping a coin only have 2 results, but if you flip enough coins it becomes complicated because of the sheer number of possible outcomes.
@@anyamckercher2408 You just hadn’t seen a coin land on their side yet.
12 years ago I would’ve thought this to be a bad video, now I’m pansexual with a trans man husband. Couldn’t be happier in life than I am now.
Romans 6:23
@@i_Iove_God
Oh, is this a book club thing? Let my contribute.
_"For one thing, he hated the summer holidays more than any other time of year."_ _Harry Potter And The Prisoner of Azkaban, Chapter One.
@@GavinAlexander. Sorry in this book club we only use the word of God
@@i_Iove_God Oh. Which god are you referencing? There's so many out there.
@@GavinAlexander. The only God that sent His son to Earth to die for our sins and defeat death
When this vid came out, I was a super homophobe Christian who was going to go to college to become a missionary. Now I'm a queer ex-christian 😂
CHARACTER GROWTH ✊🏾✊🏾✊🏾✊🏾‼️
Redemption arc!!!
I'm also a former homophobic Christian, now an aroace Christian who affirms and celebrates the whole LGBTQ+ community! I think not allowing for a God who creates so many ways to love and be in the world was very foolish and shortsighted of me and those around me, considering we claim to believe "God is love"
@@Claire-tk4do hello fellow aroace
@@Claire-tk4doRead the Bible and stop falling for such worldly deceptions.
Very well said! Too many people cite the Bible as a source for their ideas against gay marriage. Christianity isn't the official religion of the US or the world.
It may not be the "official," religion of the U.S. or the world, but it is the largest. America itself was founded by Christians.
cchsram13 Yes, but we were also founded upon the ideas of freedom of religion and the separation of church and state. Religion has no place in lawmaking.
TheSoccerKitten It may not, but the very ideals and morals of our country were set up by the views of Christians, so then why would we want to deviate from that?
cchsram13 But that was hundreds of years ago. Today, the US is a potpourri of religious backgrounds and cultures. The ideals of one religion shouldn't be the basis of the laws today, since religion is (in theory) kept separate.
cchsram13 allowing gays to settle down doesn't force us to deviate from the "Ideals and morals" of US history. The framers were (nearly) unanimous in not wanting any theocratic ties to any church because they had dealt with such things in the UK and didn't like the results. What you believe to be the US perspective was actually the ignorance of various legislators who misconstrued or intentionally lied about the intentions of the framers and the philosophical secular underpinnings that make our country unique and great. More broadly, people were tortured to death for centuries for discovering the true nature of the world, and I'm getting really sick of people who try to play it off as if we're not having the SAME ARGUMENT over and over again throughout history. Just let it go, leave people alone, it's not your business, it was never your business. You can't force people to live their lives according to some vague notion of the "good ol' days" that you have in your own subjective mind. It's crap. It's all crap.
To all the opposers i ask the following: A 20-yr old woman Samantha has fallen in love with another 20 yr girl Agatha, as a result the Samantha's family kicks out Samantha and disowns her from anything to do with them. Samantha and Agatha live happily together for the next 15 years, they love each other, but of course they are not married because there is no legal way of doing it. Samantha has a car accident.... 1) Agatha cannot visit because she is not realated in any way 2) if Sam dies the wealth generated by both agatha and samantha goes to the same family that disowned her. because in the eyes of the law Agatha is in no way related to Samantha.... is that a just law? is that justice?
Clap Clap Clap Clap
Jonathan Gauci Maybe if Agatha's family had loved her more by not naming her Agatha then she wouldn't have turned queer in the first place.
+Matt Elder you suck. You think she would have turned out strait as alexia my cousin didn't you piece of elephant crap
Luru May What are you talking about?
Matt Elder they didn't get the joke :-) ... in europe especially in eastern europe, agatha is a very common name ... that's the one that came to mind..even tho i am from western europe..
11 years later, and this video finally has a comment section that resonates with the core message of the vlog brothers.
Telling gay people they can't get married because it's against your beliefs is like telling someone they can't eat a biscuit because you're on a diet. There is no logic behind it! It may be uncomfortable for you to see someone eating a biscuit but YOU are the one who chose to go on a diet so you can't expect people to change their eating habbits to suit you. The same goes for banning gay marriage; it may male you uncomfortable, but you are the one who decided to follow a certain religion amd you have no right to make everyone be bound to those rules just for you. It is incredibly selfish.
awd3264 that is completely different. My example was showing that you cant expect people to change their behaviour to suit you. You may not like it but you have to deal with it, because goodness knows they don't like stuff about you and don't try to stop you from being that way.
555abster
Funny, I thought what I said was the same as what you said but in far simpler terms. Sorry you misunderstood.
awd3264 oh, sorry... i thought you were trying to say it sarcastically...
555abster BISCUITS ARE BAD FOR YOU!!! You just proved yourself wrong.
Dylan DeBord first of all, it was an example. I could use literally any. Like for example, just because a person hates a certain colour, they cant stop other people from wearing it.
Second of all, some people think that being gay is bad for people, but that gives then no right to tell you you're not allowed to be gay and get married and be in a relationship. My point is that just because people think something is wrong or bad, that doesnt give them the right to enforce their beliefs on other people. They can believe whatever they want, bit when it comes to actually oppressing people based on your belies, that's when its not OK.
Like I said, it was just an example. I could literally use a million others.
I think I have decided that Hank Green is the greatest human in all of existence. That's just my opinion.
+Callie Williamson Nah that's fact lol
Or is it a hypothatheory? Haha
SAME
+Callie Williamson go test it!
Agreed
Hank Green said “Gay Rights” and I have another reason to love him.
Hannah B yeah but if we didn’t have a 9th admendment gays would get attacked and would really have no rights anymore
@@nolibr00 tf does this have to do with what she commented
@@duckified.nothing he’s just dumb as shit
He is bisexual
I know this is an old video, but it just popped up on my feed, and I am commenting so that hopefully it can appear on more people's feeds. I think the world needs this.
One of the main reasons I've never really understood what reason people have to be homophobic is I don't understand why people care about other people's interpersonal lives so much. I care about LGBTQ+ issues because I care about any community who's being oppressed and discriminated against, so even though I'm straight and cis, I think it's important to be an ally. However, if you don't feel that way, why do you feel the need to be homophobic? How does it even affect you? Same-sex partners aren't running around wild in the streets being "deviants" or whatever else could be so scary. Why do you care who they're dating and/or sleeping with? It's none of your business who your fellow heterosexuals are screwing, so why does it affect you so much when non-hetero people have relationships? Are they just supposed to live a life in isolation? As for marriage, marriage itself is unnatural. It's not some higher moral result where everyone should end up. It's just another ritual that people created! If same sex marriage is so unnatural, then hetero marriage is too!
+++++++++
That would be how a philosopher or anthropologist might look at the issue, but most people actually value the particular institutions of their culture and regard them as more than just the result of tradition, habit, or consensus. They imbue their practices with moral value and thus they have meaning peculiar to themselves, and so to tell them they are wrong and force them to act otherwise is a violation of their conscience and their liberty. You are depriving them of the freedom to live their lives in their own way, just as the church condemns homosexuality as a sin and forbids gays from being married. The difference is the church doesn't force you to not be gay or not get married outside of it, though the government might force churches to admit and marry gay people. Who is the greater oppressor here?
xxcrysad3000xx I don't recall many people being oppressed for being straight, so I'm not sure what you mean. I can't think of any group of LGBTQ+ individuals assaulting, harassing, or performing hate crimes and murders on the church.
It's clear that we're not going to agree or change each other minds, so I'd rather not argue if that's okay with you. I didn't mean to start a fight, only to put out my opinion in the most respectful way I could.
And I'm actually a psychologist in training so I take your first sentence as a compliment, thank you.
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Hanneli Seirrah +
Marriage is a secular thing, which means it should not discriminate. The fact that it may have started as a religious thing is irrelevant. You can't take that shit seriously, I mean, a separate religion was created solely to allow King Henry VIII to divorce his wife.
Wise words.
Thank god for Hank Green
Which god is that?
The Lord of Light....
Come on people am I right?
+Morjax Plays Zeus
+Seto Kaiba I love how you call someone mindless and call them out for being an atheist in the same sentence. Because atheism is basically the only religious belief that is based off of rational thinking instead of prophecy and books. Well, not all of us can be intellectually adequate.
Lyndon Howlett it is a belief about about god(s) thus it is a a religious belief. The belief is just that God doesn't exist, which can't be proven so it is a belief. It is however not a religion.
"why can't gay people be committed without marriage?"
putting aside the *symbolic* aspect of marriage, there's also all of the *legal* crap involved. in some states, you can't have anyone but immediate family or spouses stay with you in hospital, or make decisions about your heath in the event that you're unable to. or in the event of your death.
in the event of death, unless the person has a death plan and all that, that responsibility usually gets placed on the spouse.. or blood relatives. now imagine you haven't had contact with your blood relatives for years. they don't know you anymore. and suddenly they have full control over what happens to you after death. Like Jennifer Gable, a trans woman who passed expectantly from an anurism. her estranged father had her hair cut, had her dressed in a mans suit, and had her buried under her dead-name. without a single mention of the fact that she had transitioned and changed her name a decade prior
Marriage isn't just a symbolic joining of two souls, it has major legal ramifications. and to withhold legal health, life, and safety options from people is immoral, cruel, discriminatory and (if you believe in jesus) the exact opposite of what he would teach
Civil partnership.
@@frishter Civil partnership doesn't always confer the same rights and obligations, depending on the state, whereas full marriage does because it's federally recognized.
No its pretty clear what Jesus thought about homosexuality....Mark 10:6-9. Jesus said, “From the beginning of creation, 'God made them male and female. ' For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.
@@heavybar3850Wait I thought according to the Bible god didn’t even create women, Adam did, but also that’s just not true, even if he did say that (Which by the way if he did there’s no actual proof, he never wrote anything down, we often just have to trust what people after his time said he said. Second his whole deal was being kind to each other. How is it kind that people kill other people for loving someone? It’s love thy neighbor, not love thy neighbor (unless they are gay)
12 years later, and this is still one of the absolute best, top tier arguments for why people should mind their own f**king business!
Marriage is a contract with the state for household formation. It is not a private matter. Civilization is quite literally built upon it.
@@TheNightWatcher1385 "is a contract with the state for household formation" And the state does not have the right to discriminate and say 2 people can't be involved in that contract because of their shared gender.
@@CorvusIsSilly “Household formation” meaning reproduction. The only reason the state is involved with marriage is because the state has a vested interest in making sure the next generation of laborers and taxpayers gets made. It has no obligation to recognize a coupling that can do no such thing, even in principle.
@@TheNightWatcher1385 You're silly. I also think this might be a good time to mention that my parents are the same gender.
Anyways, what about all of the straight+married people who don't have kids? Sounds like their marriage is less valid than my parents'.
My source, you (hypothetically) ask? You. You are my source.
@@CorvusIsSilly “What about all the straight married people who don’t have kids.”
There’s little reason for them to be married outside of taking advantage of tax breaks (which are meant to encourage reproduction in the first place btw) or because they’re using their marriage as merely a social fashion accessory.
Thanks, Hank. Means a lot to me, especially right now. 🏳️⚧️🏳️🌈 Trans rights are human rights.
Facts 🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️
What rights are they missing in the west?
@@frishter many states are currently making it illegal to support a trans person transitioning/even be a trans person
@@frishter In just the US there are currently laws being passed that are blocking therapy, horomones, and gender affirming surgeries. Some are banning drag shows, and some are even trying to ban trans people from being mentioned in schools. There is also a law that legally allows a trans person to be killed if they were about to have sex with someone and didn't tell them they were trans beforehand.
@@veevolt492 Yeah, sucks that children can't have treatment that will affect the entirety of their life and become lifelong patients instead of waiting for their identities to fully form and make decisions over their bodies once they're adults... Drag shows wouldn't need to be age restricted if we just had common sense, but unfortunately we already have examples that are blatantly inappropriate for kids. Age restrictions are not a new concept, it's just some people are outraged that they can't target kids, I wonder why...
I very much doubt that there's any law that legalises murder, however I would 100% support not disclosing that you're trans to a partner being a criminal offence. If you're trans, you should want someone that would be accepting of that anyway and so no need to deceive people.
If the only "rights" at risk is not targeting children, then I'm fine with that.
To encourage you, in Australia in 2017, we had a marriage equality survey. If all had voted, 77.5% would have supported it and only 22% were against. That was a landslide victory and marriage equality was passed by the Parliament and put into the law before the end of that year. Common sense prevailed.
Marriage equality doesn’t make sense because many of the marriage benefits are based on having children
@@GoogleAccount-wy1ub Nope.
@@GoogleAccount-wy1ub it's 2024, we don't dictate people's worth on how many children they have
@@GoogleAccount-wy1ubso infertile people can’t marry?
@@mariofeds1101 Wrong, you actually do get more benefits based on how many children you have
An 11 year old vlogbrothers video popping up in my recommended? Don’t mind if I do.
TH-cam algorithm delivered 😋
Same here
I am Christian. Don't freak out. I think that if Jesus were alive today, that he would want us to treat homosexual people just as heterosexual people. I think that God does not judge others, and if "them gays are sinners" then we should forgive them and let them go as they please. I think that they deserve equal rights. Also, when others argue the argument that homosexuals have a choice, just think of it like this:
"Oh, I have a great idea! I'm going to choose to be hated be much of the world and possibly be shunned by my family and society just because I want to! This is a great idea!"
I just think that they don't have a choice and that if you are truly religious that you should love every person, whether you agree with their way of life or not, because God would say that we should love others.
As said by kitkat mat (Asked me to add this)
"There are many people who are both Christian and Homosexual who wish to marry there significant other and have that union recognized by their church. Many Christian churches (as well as of course churches of different religions) have recently become more accepting of the LGBTQPA community, and something important to understand is that nothing can stay the same forever. The Christian religion has evolved quite a bit since its origin, (considering that the Bible says that it's our duty to stone adulterers and burn witches as mentioned in many comments here, and obviously murder and stoning is a very bad thing to do I hope we agree on that.) The principle of marriage shouldn't be dictated by any one party for many reasons (this is my own opinion). One is that when one assigns a one definition of marriage and uses that as an excuse to oppress or limit any individual's or group of people's religious and/or spiritual freedoms, it is no longer a question of law, but of morality and ethics. Rather, marriage is defined by those taking part in the union. Taking this into consideration I can't tell you that your definition of marriage is wrong just because I have a different one. It may be one person's belief that marriage is a means to expand wealth and profit, and another person that believes that marriage is for attraction and mutual respect. I cannot say (without sounding like an idiot) that all people who marry, do so for the latter reason. Bit of a tangent there, but the point I'm trying to make is that your definitions of marriage may conflict with mine, but.... I DON"T GIVE A **** :) food for thought."
You are a wonderful person.
+Dropthefishtank thanks!
finally a Christian on the internet I can relate to.
+Evan Roden ok
Jesus was probably a cool guy, but some of his followers, not so much.
Religion shouldn’t be a way for you to justify discrimination and oppression. I know this was 11 years ago but still thank you Hank.
You are probably the same kind of person who also thinks teens and young adults still jumping inside a bounce house sometimes is okay too
@@greengreengreen5132 that doesn’t make any sense and is completely irrelevant
@@greengreengreen5132 so do you have any actual rebuttal or
@@greengreengreen5132Yes? I'm in my 20s and I was in a bouncy castle last week
@@clairel34 He's the boring uncle that no one likes.
Posting a comment here cause finding this now is insane. Please recommend this again in a few years.
LGBTQ+ rights are human rights
True
the fact that what hank said in this video about "the fact that we're still struggling is disappointing" is still relevant today is so sad
Y'know, being gay is totally a choice. If I had the chance, I'd totally choose to be outcast from society and tormented my entire life because I love somebody.
theRightizright Because its not a choice. That's why.
Being gay is not a choice any more than being straight is. How hard is that to grasp?
Metal Marauder
Very hard apparently.
theRightizright totally not an obvious troll or anything. try harder friend
theRightizright Nope, not every gay rights supporter is gay. And not every gay rights supporter believes in your god. Sorry.
It is 7:10 PM on June 8th 2023 and TH-cam recommended this masterpiece to me for the first time. I love how he says sexuality and gender don’t have lines and are grey. The transphobes should remember that. Hank, Thank you for being a friend. Thank you for being around.
That shit being said 12 years ago is insane. Genuinely ahead of the times.
It's crazy to me that 11 years ago, this was a big deal, and It's still a thing stupid people in politics are arguing about. Love should not be political or religious. Love is love
Love and marriage are not the same thing.
@@sunwukong32 why do you care? why do you care what other people do with their lives? How does it affect you (or anyone else )? You didn't even coherently address the point op was making. expand. what do you mean?
@@charlie3449 you're projecting. And my response is quite coherent, maybe you're just not thinking clearly at the moment.
@@sunwukong32 i'm asking a simple question. why do you care about taking away others' right to marry
@@charlie3449 I didn't say I did. You're projecting.
I think he could have added to the "unnatural" arguement. There are many (like over 100) species of animals that have homosexuality in them, and they literally cause no harm to others or the species as a whole, AND WE ARE ONE OF THEM.
nobody started acknowledging that until after this video was made :/
The discovered total is closer to 500, so far.
“Separation of church and state.”
FINALLY SOMEONE SAYS IT.
2:16 "Ah, that makes sense to me! Why does that make so much sense to me? It does. Whatever. It must be true. It makes sense."
Ladies and gentlemen, the TH-cam comment section in a nutshell.
Dennis Chiu Man and woman are complimentary and made for each other
Mark Wilkie bruh he didn’t ask
@@markwilkie7633 people are only
complimentary if their personalities are lmao.
I'm fine with people being "against" gay marriage if it goes against their religion or whatever. So long as they don't insist that the government deserves to have any say in the matter, because that is just straight up bullshit.
This is the point of view more people need to take. You can believe whatever the hell you want, just keep your nose out of other peoples' lives. If it doesn't directly affect you in a negative way, butt out. I applaud you.
what a funny thing to say.
nazi's holocaust didn't directly affect those who aren't jewish.. why did we stopped them?
a murder who kill idiots don't affect u. do u care if he's loose?
***** Murder isn't marriage.
obviously u arent married..
no, but do we idle by and do nothing while others do bad things? and do we do nothing to help those less fortunate and in need?
Jief Yang, you have just compared gay marriage to the Holocaust. Anything you say from here on out will be just as ludicrous and treated as the gospel of a simple minded fool. Thanks for playing.
I remember when I was younger I was basically a bigot. I didn't get gay people or lesbians and I didn't even know that trans people existed. I lived in a very hardcore conservative christian part of the U.S so that is not very surprising. But today I am a very different man. I support the LGBTQ+ community I myself am Bi and I can definitely say that I am a more happy person now. I just wanted to share a bit about my life right quick thank you for reading this if you do.
congratulations on the progress.
I love that for you
@@charlieisacastle thank you!
@@hollyrowlands6943 thank you too!
Woot! Same. I also didn't know trans people even existed... except for "cross-dressers" and Thai kathoey, which I assumed were victims of abuse or trafficking. Seemed like a fate worse than death, which made it really frikkin hard to come out as trans to myself! 😅 I hope the coming generations will have better access to positive queer representation.
12 years later and people still need to hear this
Wow. Watching this 12 years after it was uploaded.
And the arguments he presented are as solid and as relevant today as they have been forever.
Glad I ran into this video.
you're insane
@@RilfDanielsonExplain how
@@Teneab Would you like the statistics on gays and minor sexual assaults first or the one on lesbian abuse statistics? Oh, or the STD rates. Those are fun.
@@RilfDanielson Let's go with the minors statistics😊
@@Teneab can't link websites on TH-cam so I will just say the site like you would speak it. Science Direct. 32% of lgbt young people report forced sexual contact compared to 11% general pop. National library of medicine 2015 study showed emotional problems being over twice as prevalent for children with lgbt parents.
This comment section is making me lose faith in both humanity and religion. I though we already determine gay marriage should be legal a long time ago
Not to the people that cite their source on the bible and not on the science
California just passed a marriage equality law. That's the only good news I'm aware of from this cycle, but it's something...
I love all the people coming back 12 years later saying “hey, I was stupid back then when I first saw this, thank you.” I never said it, but I said some pretty stupid stuff because I was taught it was wrong on a religious and biological level. It took me forever to realize it, but I’m bi, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Thank you for making this!
I hate how long we’ve been having the same conversation with homophobic people.
I know right?
"Hypothe-theory". I love it. Applicable to most everything else based on biblical "wisdom".
To people who don't want gay marriage because they're Christian: if God didn't want people to be gay, WHY DID HE MAKE THEM GAY?! Genuine question.
Genuine answer: He didn’t. It’s like asking why God makes someone sin, He doesn’t. Sin and temptation entered the world during the fall and it impacts everyone in different ways. People aren’t “born gay”. It’s a decision that they consciously make in sin. Now disclaimer, it’s not my place to judge someone for what they believe or don’t believe. I will however openly share what I believe and why cause I genuinely care for people to find the truth and the good news of the Gospel❤
@@joshjenk1613 they dont get to choose tho
@@joshjenk1613 Mate did you choose to be attracted to the opposite sex, or did your body decide for you when you hit puberty like everyone else?
@@joshjenk1613 the thing is that being attracted to someone isn't a decision. You didn't decide to be attracted to women/men. No one did...
Sexuality is something that develops. If you see kids with sexuality, then something went very wrong.
Didnt expect Hank Green the guy I watch in school to be arguing about LGBTQ stuff in my recommended today but this is cool lol
Love that Hank green ha just become bill nye.
Hands down my favourite video of Hank's. PREACH IT.
Thumbs up for privatization of marriage! Get the government out of marriage and let people decide for themselves what love and marriage is for themselves!
I disagree, Ms. Peña. Because if the state just had civil unions to cover the legal ramifications that a contract must have to be binding and toss out legalistic matrimony off the books. People would be satisfied.
Privitisation sounds too much like private companies charging the earth for a basic civil right
This video was valid twelve years ago, and it still is today. There's faith and there's facts. It may feel to you that gay marriage is unnatural, but that doesn't make it true. It may feel true to you, and if it does, then don't do it. I don't find men attractive in a sexual way. I don't want to marry men. You know what I do about that? I don't marry men. I also don't marry women anymore, even tho I still find them attractive. Tried that once. It sucked. Should I now insist everyone does what I do? Of course not. You know why? Cuz forcing people to agree w/me would NOT be awesome!
"The Most Natural Thing In The World Is Complexity" Is My favorite quote of all time.
This video and the arguments associated with it are such an example that society can progress when we look back on it in a post marriage equality world. Today, we need a renewal of the solidarity and strength we showed when gay rights were under attack. Our trans brothers and sisters are now the target of hate and oppression. We need you, Hank! The bigots are on the ascent and we have a duty to fight back. To any trans people who come across this: Know you are loved. Know you are valid. Know you are beautiful. Know you are not forgotten. Know that there are so many people who are fighting for you.
Those who believe in social justice march on and we will prevail. I know my trans brothers and sisters were on the frontlines of the fight for gay rights. As a gay man, I’ll never forget their solidarity. We can’t abandon our trans brothers and sisters in their time of need. The fight must go on! 🏳️🌈 🏳️⚧️ ❤️
Gay rights are going to come under attack again--it's the next thing after trans rights. The cultural right are feeling their oats, there are demagogic state governments on the attack, and the reactionaries have enough control of the courts in the United States to start rolling things back. We're going to have to do this whole fight over.
Oh my god Hank. This video is amazing. Thank you!
+Sophie Luvs Books yes .utube for dummy's now out on utube and blue ray
+here's Johnny TH-cam for dummies..?
This aged well. Genuinely.
Love getting this recommended 12 years later. You rock Hank!
PREACH! Actually, don't, because religion. ASSERT!
LECTURE! PROFESS!
@@Sentientmatter8 OPINE! AVER!! ;D
EXPRESS! CONVEY!
@@zeke2388 DECLARE! ADMONISH!
As a gay male, seeing this and seeing this video from 11 years ago being so pro labyq+ brings a tear to my eye. I've always loved both the Greens and this just makes my whole day week and month.
labyq+ lmao
labyq+
12 years ago still sounds like 2008 i cant believe this is only 2012
This whole video was amazing, but I especially liked the
“The whole world is grey, and if you just appreciate that, understand it and appreciate it then it’s beautiful. But if you try to spend your whole life fighting against it, then you’re going to be bitter…”
Hank just dropped one of the most profound lines I’ve heard in a long while, and I think it will stick with me :)
Happy 2023 pride month for a video that is still very relevant even if the focus has now moved to trans people
happy pride
happy pride!
happy pride!
happy pride! 🫶🏳🌈
He was literally saying smarter things 11 years ago than so many people are saying now
I’m so glad this is getting algorithmically pushed again!
"The most natural thing in the world is complexity" DEVOURED
All it will take, is for a gay couple who were married in one state to move to a state where it would've been illegal, and then do their taxes. When they fill out the form saying that they are indeed married and turn it in, the state tax authority will reject it, because they can't give tax credit for illegal activity. The couple then sues the tax office, the case (if not settled there) will be brought before the supreme court. Which will then (if they decide to hear it) will rule that it is not unconstitutional for a gay couple to have protection under the law. They will then move to have an amendment pass. This process will take roughly... 2-7 years. But there you have it.
Okay now all we need is gay couple willing to do that
Fuck it, I'll do it when I get married.
In fact the court case took about 1 year from this comment being posted, and the test cases tended to have to do with funeral arrangements and adoption. But... pretty good prediction. No constitutional amendment though (no way would that ever pass; ratification is just too high a bar). Now the question, I'm afraid, is when this is all going to be overturned and rolled back.