It will be interesting to see actual costs of running/maintaining ships. Not to mention what the finalized economy will look like. This is why I went from thinking Kraken to settling for a liberator and a few other small-medium ships. I do look forward to big events running in cap ships with larger orgs but daily I’ll enjoy running around with friends.
I agree about the liberator. In my mind the libby is a perfect 1-2 man ship and useful for almost everything. The versatility/utility it offers as a mobile home/FOB or a pitstop, or a mining transport hub or as its supposed use a vehicle transport will see alot of use in the bigger systems.
We have a Libby and Kraken but when I want to play on Monday at 2 am it will be a Libby and 2-3 NPC more than likely. And even on Friday night we can't/won't take out a Kraken without support fleet so I need over 50 guys online playing for multi hours .We are a small Org .The one guy on The Info Runners has THREE Javelins and every single person in this game owns at least one ship and can and will buy more and more in game .
Definitely right to be thinking in this way - that was really the thought behind this video, just to get people thinking about some of the pitfalls of cap ships as well as the awesome-ness!
I definitely see my self using smaller ships with a maybe a few players or AI mostly. I think AI will be a big part of players getting their smaller multi-crew ships running, and critical for capital ships.
Yeah - NPC crew is definitely going to be a big part of the puzzle. I can see your average cap ship in particular being 25-50% AI so you have bots covering the less interesting positions (point defence turrets etc).
Yeah, my 600i is one of my two ships and my biggest, I suspect it won't be hard or too expensive to have a couple of NPC's fill in the chairs needed, being I mostly play alone.
@@LoudGuns Honestly, they should cover 100% of all positions most of the time. (Except pilots). Let's be realistic. As the universe grows in size, crewing a ship with players will become extremely difficult. Right now, crewing just a redeemer? Can take up to 20 minutes of game time for players to gather around. (Even if you plan in advance to minimize crewing time, that still requires every player to log on, travel 20 minutes and land at the rendez-vous.) In the future? That could take an hour or two. That's an entire play session for most people, just to gather at one location to be a crew member. The alternative: player crew has to "live" on the ship for a while. It would be their home for a while (yeah that Is NOT going to happen unless you're in a super hardcore role-playing org or something.) Neither scenarios will work realistically, and capital ships would just gather dust. At some point, they had the idea of players "agent Smithing" into NPC crews (as a way to teleport to do multicrew without moving any character around). But that idea was dropped. Unless they give players the ability to teleport into someone's ship, multicrewing even 50% of a capital ship like an Idris with players will be extremely difficult. Too difficult to make cap ships a viable option. So in my opinion: capital ships should be 100% npc crewable (aside from pilot/captain positions). These would cost a lot and to keep them trained and ready, that will be almost a dedicated profession of its own. So that you can't just fill an Idris with NPCS and call it a day. You need the financial support of a org to maintain it and pay the NPC crew and you will need to spend a lot of hours just to manage the npc crew and keep them effective (say like watching their moral, doing training exercises etc...) In short, being the captain of such a ship would require ressources and dedication. A career choice you must embrace, not something you just jump into one night for the fun of it. But it is CRUCIAL, that even capital ships do not "require" player crews outside pilots and the captain (so for the Idris, captain and pilots for the fighters inside are players). Otherwise, capital ships will be inoperable for 99% of situations. Of course, having some players crews should still be "encouraged". But not forced. Like an NPC crew has a moral stat and they can panic and not perform their duties for a while. Something a player crew will never be affected with. So if possible, yes having important positions filled by players should be ideal. But it is essential for npc crews to act as a "buffer" that allows your capital ship to function and remain active at anytime. A capital ship isn't just some ship you take out to do bounties. It's a base of operations. And as such it needs to be active for extended periods of times (not just for combat, but to gather and provide intelligence with their capital size radars and scanners, surveillance, medical, refuelling/repair/rearming). If some of my org buddies need protection just to do a regular mining operation, I should be ready to provide it at anytime. And with a massive universe where gathering to a single location can take 30 minutes to even a few hours? Crewing with players will be rare (IE: special operations planned in advance) That's just my take on it anyways. (Great video by the way)
Your point about price and claim times is really important the balance we see in game now is not expected to be the balance in live, and these values will change both in magnitude, and likely relatively between ships.
Indeed - a lot of folks won’t like those changes when they come but it’s really important for game balance. I don’t want big battles between orgs to end only when one side loses the will to keep going after 48 hours of non-stop returning capital ships!
I think that’s it - and for some orgs they’ll be able to put cap ship fleets out regularly. I think the important thing to remember is that owning the cap ship is only part of actually getting use out of it.
Me personally I go for the 6 max crew size, that is the largest I will go. I have pledged the Cutlass bk. Taurus, 400i, MSR, Caterpillar, Carrack and the Perseus. Actually all the ships can be run with 4 or less depending on the ship and have low cost to run compared to Cap. ship. All have long range as in distance, crossing a system or two if they are small. Stanton and Pyro are the smaller systems in game the rest are mostly much bigger. There are systems that are 20x bigger than Stanton, let that sink in for a min. You will need a large enough ship to travel across a system bigger than Pyro one way because some systems have very little in them. Unless of course you want to depend on others to carry your ship or come out to refuel it. I really like the vid. and the common sense it makes for the player that wants low running costs, plus less time to coordinate player schedules . Note you don't need as many ships as I have Pledged, I have been with SC since November 07, 2013 so I spent about $150. - 160. a year, which is cheaper than most hobbies and like CR's vision of what games can be if your heart is in it.
Very valid points and is in line with my thought process everytime I look at buying a ship irl. I currently only own a nomad. Everything else I get in game. I've played a few years now and I'm always thinking about getting more ships to add to my hanger but I have a hard time justifying a large purchase. I get by just fine as it is and I get anything I want typically between wipes. But I do want something before too long. I saw you on a server the other day too btw. Have fun and good luck out there.
I think if you’re getting by just fine and you haven’t gone for it yet it’s best to find your people to play together with first. I don’t do telling people how to spend their money - it’s not my thing - but I’d advise anyone who wants to own a large or cap ship to worry about people first and the ship itself second!
@@LoudGuns I agree. I am in a dedicated org and I am friendly with a few others. Another reason why I'm not to worried about it lol. Most of them have all those ships already. I can use them when needed or even as a crew member. I do want my own and I don't want to wait too long as prices only seem to go up. Right now it's save for a ship, joy sticks or a whole new rig. Big decisions lol.
Excellent points as usual. I genuinely wish nothing but joy for those that have the big beasties, but I stick to stuff I can run by myself but with slots for mates when they're about; the largest thing I have on pledge is a 600i but I'm usually in my bought-in-game 400i as a daily driver (stick a cyclone in the hold and it's a fun combo for box running). Your point about low-key transportation of valuables was spot-on, too: all those big ships can get the attention while I'm zipping past in a bundle of 'meh', and one of the great things about SC is that the game supports both approaches.
As a carrack owner, I was very excited to have the ship that came with a vehicle, a smaller ship, and could haul cargo, while working on exploration. I am concerned of the drawback of needing a crew at times come beta or release. But you've raised a good point that I hadn't considered, larger ships are likely to be a target because of what they are. I believe that a carrack can be used for many things, including the unexpected, and I don't think I would ever go larger. I have considered downgrading, but at this stage, I would lose money having owned it since before the price hike (and a smaller ship, and a vehicle). Thank you for sharing! :)
This isn't meant to put anyone off - it's purely just to get the brain juices flowing. A carrack to me is a perfect ship for a group of 3-4. Technically it should be solo-able with a bit of NPC crew to man your turrets but I think it'll come alive more for you with a few friends. I do reckon that even folks who spend most of their time solo would benefit from running in a crew some of the time if you can find the right few people to hook up with.
The biggest solo ships are where the most competition and innovation among the ship manufacturers should be found. I think the best ships haven't even been thought of yet. I'm waiting for the Banu Chop Shop ship...
Asking how much time capital ships will spend in drydock is an excellent question. I think you’re right that even large orgs won’t be running an orion all the time and the money they make will translate to greater costs. Imagine the cost of having over a hundred players and crew to run a single mining trip. Sure the gains will most likely outweigh the costs but I imagine mistakes could quickly turn the tables on that. Damaging the orion early on could end the expedition immediately and leave you out tens of millions of credits. Disclaimer: I wrote the following before watching the video. . Capital ships are cool but I honestly never expect to actually fly one myself. I might contract a Hull-B sometime in my life to transport all my (small orgs) ships to a new system but I doubt I’d even fly that. . I don’t care for capital ships as actual ships. I like to think of them as either a tool for things like transportation or a FOB. In some rare circumstances, they can be used for combat but I suspect orgs would only do so with calculated precision to ensure they don’t lose it. More likely than not, the capital ship will provide a novel fireworks show by unceremoniously destroying the target(s) or dropping off the strike force they carry. In the unlikely event that they get caught in a trap and are put in danger of being destroyed, that would be exciting. The crew would be busy furiously managing power, disabling systems, locking doors, doing repairs, fending off enemy ships, and potentially boarders. The attackers would be in a dream scenario of invading an enemy capital ship to destroy it or eliminate the crew. . Overall I’m skeptical that people are willing to assume the risk of destroying their most expensive assets for the sake of excitement so they’d only use them if they were confident that it wasn’t in significant danger which would make it boring.
I've shared these concerns for a while too, but it's impossible to deny that something like the Endeavor concept has insane value when compared to something like an Eclipse.
Yep it’s a very tricky one, but cash bang for buck exists in a lot of things. Those sit on lawnmowers are extremely good value compared to a little flymo - but if you’ve only got 10 square meters of lawn you don’t buy the sit-on 😂
In my opinion, the hype has nothing to do with power, but with potential gameplay. A cap ship is basically a flying raid dungeon, both when you crew it and when you and your people try to destroy or capture it. Many people miss the days when they went on their evening adventures with their 25 and 40 man groups. Cap ships will make this interesting again with a cool sci-fi spin. Coordinated group play is always great, And 20+ people being on a ship makes SC quite unique.
This is a very good point. So much of SC's appeal falls into that category - the potential gameplay there is out there. I think if your goal in owning a capital is to relive the glory days of MMO raiding then you're not going to be disappointed. I think the issue will come for people who maybe do approach it as buying power.
@@LoudGuns I believe the success of finding the gameplay they want from a capital ship will come down to the ability to commit the time and effort to game and finding (or building) a good org with like-minded people willing to work toward that goal. Owning a capital ship is a miniscule small fraction of what it will take to find 'the gameplay those people are looking for'. Short-cutting the process of getting a capital ship by paying cash for it could actually be detrimental to their goal. Getting organized enough to actually get those ships in game is a litmus test (one of) as to whether or not you are ready to spawn and maintain such a ship. Just my opinion. Your mileage may vary.
@@markr4404 agree - actually acquiring high value things in games (like cap ships in SC) is often the test. Like in Elite - 5m-30m credits a week sounds like a lot to maintain your fleet carrier but it’s really not if you had the 0.5bn credits to buy the thing in the first place.
Great video! For now most of the time i'm flying with Freelancer Max with 122 SCU or a smaller ship like Gladius or Cutter. But later on when big ships gonna be in ther verse, i'll be more often on them and using medium and small ships to avoid any attention like you mentioned .I'll be happy to have you onboard one of my big ship.
Interesting vid, and good points as always. I'm currently CCUing my way towards a Polaris, which as a small combat capital I think will take about 10 to effectively crew (advertised 6-14). For anyone who has tried tomcrew up a hammerhead, they'll know that's a pain already. It will definitely be something that gets taken out less frequently than a Redeemer etc. but I'm interested in experiencing the full range of combat gameplay (which people can do by crewing other people's ships!) I also think if will be hard to make decent money with combat capitals. The new critical threat combat assist beacons would only be 30-40k per crew member. The benefit will more be in org vs org scenarios, so they might be something that costs to use - but is worth it for the added capability. Another point that comes up is 'how many of x ship does the org need'. The anwer for a small org is easier, but for a bigger org you have to consider timezones, ship owners availability to play (and/or delegate captaincy), and how many systems the org is operating in. One Orion might be good for a 20 person European mining org operating in Stanton, but a 200+ person global mining org might need 3 if operating accross Stanton/Pyro/Nyx, and maybe 6-9 if they want to run them around the clock and can't do crew handover.
Cheers Daard - also all interesting points! I've always sort of thought that for an org that does industry & combat - the combat side is likely to be a long-term investment more than a money spinner. Would be really happy if combat washes it's own face, but certainly cap ships will probably either be for high end raid type content (big PvE battles etc) or for Org v Org like you say. The point about multiple locations is a really good one, and also to some degree contingency will be important - having a new cap ship to jump in if your first one gets knocked out of commission could be critical. Just when it comes to people buying these things I don't know how they would feel if their massive purchase is relegated to "backup ship 3". That said I don't personally think for people in reasonably sized orgs that crew will be an issue long term - it's a key reason to find an org you gel with to my mind. I always think of everyone who's playing right now as an early adopter. People who come later are (if the game is good) likely to outnumber us by many times and will more likely than not just get a starter pack. Those are the folks who are going to be keen to crew on caps.
I like this subject. Cap ships are going to be big targets like you say. They should have escorts along with their crew. And for players that are mostly solo players, capital ships are too big to look at.
great video. you've definitely helped me fight off the desire to grab a capital ship and maybe pickup some large/medium instead. I play a lot mostly solo so the giant ships wouldn't end up crewed very well.
@@BadTactics101 My org leader owns a Hammerhead, I find nothing more boring than manning these damn turrets for an hour. And if engineering gameplay is live, you gotta be a special kind of person to enjoy that, I guess :D
Different smokes for different folks on the roles thing - I think cap ships should offer a decent balance. Being the gunner on a Javelin's dual size 8's or an Idris' Rail Gun might be exciting, but point defence turret number 3 will likely be dull as dishwater (and therefore farmed out to AI). 1337chevelle is right - it's down to CIG to make the roles on offer engaging and fun.
@@batz_benzer I agree. Being a gunner was fun the first few times I did it and it helps to have a sizable beverage on hand. But most nights it's just sitting around for 95% of the gameplay , and the other 5% is being frustrated that the pilot keeps rolling the ship when you finally line up the shot.
In eve online, small high value things always got moved by small fast ships. There's a place for big ships, and I think a lot of people will be learning that the hard way in Sc.
@2:50 yes this is the argument - however larger ships require way more people and will be exponentially more difficult to use as a result. Even though it makes way more money it cost way more. I suspect at most the best normalish (excluding extremely difficult/high risk activities that will always be 'the top profit') profit to be expected per hour in game effort will at most double between say the smallest solo miner and the largest miner in the game (currently Orion but long term probable we will likely see others).
Always enjoy yours vids and your POV! I agree on most, and I especially agree that Cap Ships need long, maybe not weeks, but def days, claim time. Keep em comin! Btw, are you a Scotland resident. I love that kind of weather!
I completely agree. I think it's cool that capital ships exist, however they should be incredibly rare and hard to get,. I understand at the moment there is a reason behind selling big ship for irl money but I hope in the future they are going to be locked behind a reputation wall or a ton of money.
Indeed - I believe CIG have indicated that once we're at live ship sales will be a much smaller part of the picture with larger ships no longer available for $$$.
I absolutely agree. That's why I only own ships of up to 3 Crew members currently. Although I do play with the idea of buying a Kraken, not because I think that I will be able to constantly run it with a full crew, nor because I want to field multiple fighters in a situation, but because I think about using it as a base of operations for rescues. I own a SRV and a Vulcan, and some friends and I were thinking about also getting a Cutlass Red (or possibly Apollo Triage) on top, so that we would be able to offer all kinds of rescue operations. However, we don't have enough people to field all those vehicles at the same time. With a carrier ship for at least medium sized vessels however, we would be able to react to rescue operations depending on a case by case basis, with additional hangars/pads open for the rescued individual's ships and enough space on board to house the crew of those as well. I am hesitant however, for one due to the price, for second due to the amount of people needed as a skeleton crew for it, and for a third due to not knowing if there might be another carrier vessel comming between the Liberator and the Kraken, since the former isn't big enough to support the Cutlass and the Vulcan, while the latter has the already mentioned issues.
Makes sense to me that there would be more carriers - the Kraken is a pretty huge step up (and personally I can see it growing in size to accommodate other ships that have also grown). The Lib is undoubtedly a carrier but I view it as very much a ship ferry (ship) as opposed to an active carrier - there’s a niche I think for something more Polaris sized with space for 2-3 ships. If you’re particularly interested in medical rescue type gameplay have you looked at the endeavor though? Gives you an actual hospital and a hangar for your cutty red with the right modules.
@@LoudGuns I'm interested in the multitude of facets that rescue operations can have, from medical rescues, over what is essentially essentially highway support, to the liberation of stuck vessels. I like to be able to change what I do in this game within an hour or so, and rescue gameplay will likely offer a wide variety of activities. I haven't looked too closely into the Endeavor yet, because from the concept of it it sounds like it will likely grow even more than the Merchantman did. And with a size of 200m as the original concept I'm a bit hesitant about the actual size and crew requirements this ship will ultimately have. Particularly since it'll likely be one of the latest additions to the game due to the modularity and all the game loops it touches on.
The only big ship I could see myself being a part of for an EXTENDED amount of time if the landing pad one. Love my eclipse and feel as the two would work perfectly together!
For years I had the idea that the bigger the ship, the less useful it was to most players (including myself) because more of its functionality was missing the larger it got without a full crew. A Carrack didn't interest me at all, an 890 jump was a labyrinthine monster that was more of a romantic idea than a useful thing to use in 95% of play sessions. The longer I play, the larger the ship I gravitate towards, especially with the larger servers and medical 0, current shield totals, etc. Being able to do things with multiple people is going to be better and better every year, and getting a group together isn't so bad if you join an active discord or org. I can now see how cool flying a fully-crewed Hammerhead is because I've finally done it. It's not cumbersome, it's a freaking juggernaut with walls of lasers flying out of it in all directions. I can see how cool a carrack is because I've gone out with 5 guys and done FPS missions with it. I no longer see the Redeemer as a low-maneuverability ship with most of its firepower gated behind having people in the turrets, I think of it as ALLOWING you to bring 2 people and give them both tons of firepower to run VHRT/ERTs while in voice comms together. And so forth. I think a lot of people can't close their eyes and accurately wrap their brain around how ships will fit into the final game. Lots of times you will lose a fight and your ship will be turned into a space nugget but you won't die. And the larger ships will have almost insurmountable amounts of shields and armor and hp. You're not going to automatically lose a Kraken to 4 dudes in Vanguards. Like with Eve, you'll have time to ping a Discord and get people online to man and defend the capital ship. Capital ships won't take 1-2 minutes to take down, they'll take much longer even under heavy fire. That's cool. That's a reliable home base you can defend. But my strong feeling is that the medium multicrew ships with a usable cargo area - the MSR, the Constellation, the Herc, the 600i, and so forth - will be the way to find massive fun down the road. Hop in one, find 4 other players, get into trouble. People flying big ships around solo will be kind of pointless. I like that. It gives everything purpose.
Why bring 4 vanguards against a low crew Kraken. Legionaire, board, take the ship. Crew isn't only about manning the stations and guns, it is about being able to repell a boarding party.
When I bought my Idris in like, 2017 I had a sizeable group to play with. Now after the years my dedicated group to play with has dwindled. I'm basically just intending to use it as a mobile base that I'll keep in Deep Space in w/e system I'm operating in, perhaps I'll eventually look to joining an org, renting it out, or for some events.
Regardless of what ships are in your hangar I'd definitely recommend running with an org or a community - some people just don't like playing with others which is totally ok, it's just that this does mean you'd probably miss out on some of the game's content since it is being designed to cater to the multiplayer crowd.
I think you missed another drawback of the cap ships. I saw somewhere where CIG said you would not be able to despawn/stow them like other ships. Which I take to mean that once they are out; they are out until they are destroyed. Even if you and everyone log on it logs out; the ship will remain in the game waiting for someone to to steal it. These ship are going to be not only for orgs; but orgs of significant size and organization. Not the couple of friends getting together on a weekend. At least that is the way I took it. I also agree with you that the claim time on those ship will be going up a lot. I would expect a week or more for the smaller capital ships and multiple weeks for a Javelin or probably any that are 'hull limited quantity'.
This is true and IMO the reason is they can't fit in a Hangar, only docked to a station. Although things could change before launch of the game where the ship could despawn if all crew is logged out and no one is in the area to see it disappear, but you would run into the same problem bringing it back into the game. (no one is in the area to see it)
@@jedi_drifter2988 a dock could be treated as a hanger if they wanted it to for the purpose of stowing a ship. I think CIG's idea is that capital ships should be crewed 24/7 (and in general only used by large orgs). Considering how many of them they sell it individuals it will be interesting how their thoughts on cap ships will evolve (if at all).
@@c-mcd7618 A dock is outside ... A hangar is inside. That is why CIG is doing away with landing pads on stations. It breaks the emersion when the players watch ships, pop in and out like magic.
@@jedi_drifter2988 That isn't the main reason pads are going away. The main reason is people pad ramming and otherwise attacking ships on the pads. The immersion may be another reason; but it isn't the main one (from what I've heard). Another reason for hangers has to do with cargo; specifically the facilities to load and unload cargo. Not sure how the cargo thing is going to work with a space dock. (Un)loading a Hull D or E might be interesting.
I agree with your view. Medium ships will play a significant role due to its assumed moderate cost to operate and crew requirement. I would rather drive out in droves of medium class vessels than a large cap class ship unless I can muster enough heads for a proper fleet, hence I have limited myself to corvette/frigate class ships.
I think it's healthy to step back from the buying angle and look at where these ships are likely to fit in the overall game - ultimately to me they're end game content for organisations rather than early game content for small groups.
Eh…yeah, I’ve been sucked into this, stayed with my starter Titan for six months, but after grinding aUEC in-game to buy every ship I wanted, I’ve started the CCU game, saved $60 on the Scorpius, and now halfway through my BMM chain. And yes, I have hanger queens, including a loan Prospector.
There's nothing wrong with buying the ships you want, and I (because it's exactly what / why I've done) can understand buying ships for cash because you're a bit time poor and know you won't necessarily have the time to grind so much. But I think capital ships need to have these kind of "buyer beware" warnings on them - because I worry that if they are correctly balanced for end-game they might not be the thing you immediately get out of the hangar in the early game.
@@LoudGuns yea it could really suck if the cap you pledged for doesn’t work the way you assumed, like a lot of players think a Polaris will be a big torpedo boat that a solo pilot can use. I was sucked into the BMM hype when its WarBond was released at Invictus, but reckon when Pyro is released you will see it infested with player-manned BMMs, which will really load the persistent servers.
I get the feeling that for many if not most players, the so-called medium ships will in fact be the endgame. Once resource subsystems and the like come online, the plan is that larger ships ultimately just won’t be practical to operate solo; you’ll need to either hire NPC crew (which will cost money & likely have some associated captain gameplay) or get some friends to crew your ship. To get an idea of where multi crew ships are headed, look at the difference between the Prospector and the Mole. Sure the Mole can carry a lot more ore & eventually will be able to break some rocks that the Prospector can’t, but if you don’t have the crew, why bother?
I think this is a good video, likely most of your points are exactly the long term plan. Multi crew ships should need multiple crew members. People planning to solo their Idris with NPCs on day 1 should be sorely disappointed that they simple don’t have the capital for their capital.
It’s tough, because as someone who plays solo mostly currently, I’m torn with larger multi-role ships like the MSR vs having several smaller ships that can do the same job. Great video, fantastic topic to discuss.
The speed of the MSR makes it one of the medium ships that I think will actually solo decently if you are just hauling point A to B. Speed controls engagement.
Once you can slave the MSR's two turrets to the cockpit with blades itll be good as a multi role ship. Right now if you want to bounty hunt you'll want at least one other.
I think ships like the MSR should be completely affordable to solo, but just ultimately better with a mate or 2. And tbf I think even players who are mostly solo-ist's would benefit from getting on some form of small crew with another person or 2 who want similar things from the game. Where I don't think solo-ing will be financially viable is when you reach higher to something like the Polaris for instance.
Totally with you on the starter ship. I keep on thinking about upgrading my aurora but I never do. Lucked out and somebody used my referral code and ended up with an argo cargo bonus which is what I’ve been updating.
Yeah it’s incredibly useful to always have an insta claim ship in your hangar. I particularly like the Aurora myself too - mainly because of the bed which I think will be really important going forward.
You bring up some good points, no offense taken at all. I'm, not a big fan of the ship becoming more expensive. No one wants to take the time to earn the cash for any ship knowing you will lose it during the next patch. There should be two UEC prices, one with insurance and the other without. The other area which I also found interesting was the destruction of a capital ship. You are correct it would not be fair for a Kraken to be destroyed and 10 minutes later shows up back in the fight. A ship of its size should take at least 24 hours to respawn. If a capital ship is damaged it should take anywhere from 30 minutes to 4 to 5 hours depending on how severe the damage. All this depends on if the crew is doing repairs in flight, or the ship returns to base for repairs. There is a lot to consider when capital ships are launched, one thing is for sure they will NOT be a one-man operation by no means. I can see ships that walk the line of the capital ship, ships like the Odyssey, and the Perseus recategorized as support ships. I can see ships like Carrack being the smallest ship to have a full med bed one day. Due to its exploration capabilities, it should have a full meddled for severe injuries. Either way, there will be a lot of decisions to be made and not everyone is going to be happy. I think the best way is to out a survey to existing members and then make a decision from there. This way The members have an idea of what to expect.
I like you. I think all of you videos are spot on. I got in an argument with another YTer who said small ships are useless because other can’t jump around the many systems. Don’t get me wrong, I love folks pledging for cap ships. They are finding my dream game. However, as a pirate, I’m going to ruin their fun. A cap ship owner doesn’t have the amount of friends willing to leave their ships parked so they can man all of your stations. Big solo ships are going to be the sweet spot so you can max earning potential but also fleet up with friends and maybe get a couple ai for your turrets. Besides, most gamers are solo so cap ships are going to be rare.
Thanks Mike! It's all very situational - some orgs are big enough and well organised enough that if Cap Ships dropped in to the game tomorrow they'd have them fully rigged and sailing immediately. I just think that in amongst the cap ship hype (some of which I made :D ) we should take a look at the counter-arguments / downsides.
Good thoughts. As a mostly solo player (although I do also lurk in your Discord), I'm interested in how big a ship I'll be able to operate, how many gameplay loops will be closed to me simply because I can't crew the relevant ships, and how much cap ships will just take over the game. I think there are a lot of tough design problems for CIG there, but I'm hopeful they'll come out with some good solutions! Definitely an area to keep an eye on.
Sorry - sometimes I don't get notifications! Lurk away! Personally I believe CIG are trying to put the Multiplayer in MMORPG and I kinda view Cap Ships and the fleets you'd need supporting them as the end-game content of SC. Hopefully there will still be plenty of stuff for smaller groups and ships to do and if the devs incentivise it right then hopefully the bigger orgs will be looking / happy to work with smaller groups as opposed to crushing them. That said there needs to be some kind of content that rewards the players who put the time and effort into organising - building an organisation and keeping the members happy isn't an easy thing to do so it needs to be rewarded with some kind of gameplay that can only be achieved that way.
@@LoudGuns Yeah absolutely, I definitely want multiplayer to be a big thing in SC. But the fact is that it takes a lot of organisation (as you know all too well 🙂) and sometimes I just wanna jump into the game and do some quiet space trucking, without making it something I have to schedule and commit to. (And I suspect that affects most players a bit and even dedicated group players sometimes.) As you say, hopefully they'll design it so that small groups that don't need so much admin can still have a good time, and that will also benefit anyone who's having a solo play session.
Very good points and pretty much the way i thought about ships. I expect cap ships to be expensive to operate and not fully playable when flown alone. I also don't think the term "startership" is correct. While the Mole and the Reclaimer are cool and effective ships, i see prospectors and vultures to be much more used on a daily basis. Group play is the key here. I also like the "fly under the radar" approach. Additionally not being able to let go of my Titan, the Pisces is always the first ship i buy in game. Besides that i have only multipurpose ships, with the highest crew requirement being 3.... on my MSR. So i have only ships that are ok to fly alone, but offer a good benefit when flown with a few friends.
Thanks mate! Yeah I see the prospector/vulture much more as “Profession Starters” as opposed to “starters” which for me covers anything you can insta-claim with expediting like the Aurora, Pisces, Titan etc.
@@LoudGuns I also don't see them as "profession starters". They are simply single pilot ships. I have seen people mining in a Mole solo, but its impractical for now. With more and more systems coming to the game, i see profession ships like the Mole to become less efficient when flown solo. If you never plan to mine/salvage with others, you don't use anything beside the Prospector and the Vulture. Ships are not stepping stones, they are tools.
TLDR: like the video and discussion points. Had a lot of additional thoughts provoked by them. Several of the things you mentioned raised some interesting thoughts. While I would not mind owning a Kraken it would, for me, mostly be about the novelty (and the pokeman gotta get'em all aspect) rather than actual playability. To my mind ships larger than 4-6 crew are definitely org minded vessels. It is not too hard to envision even a small org oriented around an Expanse which is technically a single operator ship but which can provide a service to several people. For those who want to play solo, the smaller ship sizes, or something which can be nominally "Crewed" with AI/blades will be the ships of choice. The sheer flexibility of the number of ships and potential play styles makes for a lot of awesome game play. Salvage and restoration make rebuilding a "destroyed" capital ship a realistic possibility and the idea an org would have to provide/acquire resources to do so in addition to security is almost mind boggling to comprehend. I would expect to see smaller orgs with similar but separate agendas making alliances and working together on certain types of projects. Other orgs will be looking to take advantage of those projects and yet other orgs will be looking at the merc angle for both sides. While the org I am a member of now is not very active, the premise it was founded on resonates with me, and I trust it still resonates with those who are not currently playing. I also trust they will play and we can realize that premise together. For the record it is not a pirate org and considerably more altruistic than most. IMO, Cap ships are bases. They provide strategic benefit to those able to use them and smart orgs will do what they can to protect them. Large fleet battles will happen. With longer claim times and operational/repair costs associated with them those battles will hopefully be rare. When they do occur however, the salvage/reclamation/rebuild/repair phase will kick in with some attempting to strip as much as possible, others looking to get a given ship functional enough to fly out and repair elsewhere, etc. A fleet battlespace will be an active hot zone for potentially weeks and orgs should give some serious thought to how that post-battle environment looks. Hope for the best, plan for the worst but have a plan. On a separate note - content. SC will not simply be about ships. There is a rudimentary "Quest" system which exists now. They have been talking about more dynamic events which can/will affect players anywhere (one might argue some of that exists already with certain settlements/bunker locations also being spawn points for bounty missions and some of the NPC pirate activity in the middle of a QT). I am truly hoping for considerably more such content which will either be tailored for group play or which can/will scale to group play. Several people have commented on how "stupid" the AI in bunkers is now. That's going to change. I for one have run into a couple of situations in which the current AI has effectively (if not intentionally) set up an ambush. The talk about improving AI sensing and communication are awesome (and terrifying!) but will greatly enhance the viability (and need for) group play.
One of the things I really love in SC is no ship is "the ship" that can just do it all and everyone will end up flying. But one of the big things there when it comes to cap ships is that even if you can put one of them out - that on it's own probably won't be enough. You'd need to consider the vessels to support it as well. I too hope that as we get more info in the future the focus on ships decreases somewhat in favour of other aspects of the end-game; territorial control, reputation, dynamic events in a multi-system verse etc.
I’ve heard rumors that when SC gets out of alpha it will become very hard to grind for a ship, a capital ship may be a few years of grinding with crew members. My vision of the verse is exploration/trade. Preferably with a capital ship that can hold a terrapin for scanning.
Indeed, I can easily see cap ships going for 500m and up. But to me this fits with the idea of then being an org as opposed to an individual’s purchase. Realistically though anything game devs think will take years will end up taking players months 😆
Won't be years, but a few months, I see that happening, yes. However, like every game, there'll always be those very big orgs who pool their efforts and grind capitals in a single hard day's work...
IMO when sc goes live you won't be able to buy some ships ingame W/out a certain rep level. Say you want to get a Polaris, you might have to have a high rep lvl with the UEE Navy and have no gang related activities or frequent jail times, on top of a few years of grinding ?
@@jedi_drifter2988 Rep will absolutely be a thing when buying certain ship. The BMM immediately springs to mind. However no ship will take years of grinding. Months, I can see this happening, but far far far from even one year. SC remains a game first and foremost.
@@jedi_drifter2988 Yup, sounds very plausible. More reason to buy these ships now, preferably with LTI and in concept. The only possible issue we could encounter is CIG trying to give new players a fair chance when SC goes live by holding back capital ships for a certain amount of time. Maybe best to get a wide variety of ships and land deeds to rush and claim the best locations. I might need to get a second job 🤔
The way I see it, all these people buying big ships is just going to make more demand for my in-game services as a happy crewman/turret gunner. Really looking forward to being a Reclaimer's cargo manager in 3.18.
outside of the few mega orgs cap ships will be staffer with far less players. It will be easier to hire 10 fighters than 5 sit in a bubble for an hour gunners. and I think there will be both formal and informal ship renting from the whales.
I tried to keep this in mind when I chose my ships, obviously you’ll be solo quite often so I have a Warden and a Vulture, if a friend comes along the wardens great solo or with 1 more player, and for more than that I got a Corsair for 2-4 peeps.
Really sensible - I for one am really happy to see how CIG is releasing less massive cap ships now and instead widening the variety in the 2-6 person range.
"Sticking your body on the bow of the kraken" LOL I see your point but I dont want the big ships to own anyone but to make my life easier. I would like an Orion but its the amount of people I would need to operate it that puts me off . Also if you get that much cash early on in the game you may not have anything to do :) I look at myself as Support I wont to go out and help people to repair their ship , have a base where people can come repair re arm and refuel and be on their way giving me cash and all I have to do is get the stuff mine refine, salvage. My idea is to have a Crucible put a Vulture in it so you can salvage and then repair :D
Interesting take as always. I don't think what CIG wants, from a game that still have to launch, is to piss off new players because the "Whales" have already got all the cake. I'm a small sized Whale myself, having spent barely short of 2K (Pluls VAT! 😓), but that's because I like to explore game loops and try new things when they come out: that's why I have probably 3 times more credits in long CCU chains, I still have to apply, rather then sitting on ships I can actually fly. Capital ships are something I really don't delve too much in, especially if they require a lot of crew members to operate. I own a Liberator CCU, a Banu Merc CCU, a Reclaimer CCU and a Hull-C CCU, running across several smaller and cheaper ships that might do for me if I decide to pass on the big boats. The point is that we know nothing about the release: how much would these ship cost to maintain? Will there be taxes to pay for them? how much fuel will cost in the future? How will crews be managed, when on board for prolonged times, like on an Exploration ship, far away from known space? How will long sessions on a mining enterprise be managed, as crew members logs in and out of the game in their spare time? What when Death will become a real issue? ATM every player is a fleet, either owning an Org or being part of a large one, but what happens when an Org has too many capital ship for it's needs, and too few members, owning possibly several copies of the same ship? can you make any use of 12 Krakens, and how often? This is, at the end of the day, a First Person Exploration Game, not EVE, and you can only be on one ship at a time. I'm worried players will ask high prices for their services, as there are more large ships then players crewing them, and we don't even know the state of AI crews once the game will be out. Providing interesting game play for each hour your crew is working on a ship, when you are the captain, can be a daunting endeavour. This is why I shun ships requiring large crews, as I know I can easily sell my services to someone, when I feel like playing in a crowded ship, rather then wasting my time looking for someone to join my crew each time I feel like I want to take out my Javelin.
I have a orion LTI and a prospector LTI I got the pros for the purposes of getting the start up funds for example crew/components/paying for loading and off-loading/and protection. Just the cost of a orion to get Ingame will be in the billions to lose that in the game I suggest hiding the sharp knives.
i mainly look at capital ships as giving up gameplay for more attack power. they have all the negitives of worn out parts ect but many wont be good or able to land planetside. and if out in the black might suffer major damage that needs special repairs. deep space is probably the best place for them but large ships can still go there they just wont be able to fight the capital ships. i find it more likely that you will run into large ships more than large npc capital ships for the most part and if a large fleete did run into an npc capital ship its easier to take down most likely than a major player org with fleets of them. jump points are the major thing i think about a lot tho. if i buy a capital ship can it travel with my large ships. if not it will be on its own for a long period and my fleet doesnt get the bonus of having it around. and if i travel together my large fleet has the risk of being caught by capital ships. then we also got potentially smaller signitures compared to some capital ships. as take a kraken for instance thats a massive target with a lot of signiture and compare that with 2 liberators, i would bet the libs are more likely to slip past more than the kraken.
I am so glad I have a prospector aswell as a orion to get my funds up before I take out my orion to pay my org for personal and defence I will defernatly will not be doing any direct roots to sell I may even pretend to be a noob and announce in chat if a station is safe then go to another one to looer them away.
I have a Kraken and can’t wait for it to come into the game. 10 years maybe? When it does the real problem will be whether it will persist in the PU or whether anyone in my or org will be able to spawn the ship if I’m not logged into the game. I hope that becomes possible
Org tools are sorely in need of updating, and are a must way ahead of capital ships coming in to the game. Anyone who has multiple ships realistically needs to be able to share access to them within their org to get the most out of them.
@@LoudGuns depends on the scan results. It would be super fun to set up a “boarding trap” assuming scanning will at least register the occupied volume metrics when the cargo is shielded. Fully loaded c2 with some worthless shielded cargo that just looks juicy, crewed by an elite squad of fps legionnaires ready to tag some pirate toes.
In the end, the value of any given ship is in the eyes of the owner. For me, buying tons of ships now, before the game is even out, is counter productive. Grinding my way to a new ship, and finally being able to buy it in-game, will be my main motivation to play. If I have everything from the start, why even bother...
I can definitely get behind this now. I frequently do zero to hero type runs starting with an Aurora or a Mustang just to give myself the gameplay in the current game. This isn't me saying "go buy ships" but I do hope that in the future that there is a lot more to the game than buying the next ship up on the ladder. Would love to see an end-game centred on territory and reputation as opposed to "grind x million creds - buy ship - repeat".
It definitely gives me something to think about. I was contemplating getting another capital ship in my fleet (Polaris) and I’m still deciding whether it’s worth it or just keep my BMM as my heavy hitter since it has some big guns on it already. I don’t know if I could crew both the BMM and the Polaris at the same time. Plus if things go to shit I could always use the BMM’s speed to get away from the fight if I’m fighting another capital ship and things aren’t going well for my side. I already have a decent sized fleet and adding another capital to it might not be the best thing if I can’t crew it and it’s just sitting there. At least in early game since I could probably buy the Polaris in game with the money I make with the BMM and Reclaimer
As someone who's very new to SC, I did wanted big ships and I got my hands on a couple. The community is great and they basically showered me with aUEC. Not knowing much, I went for the biggest cargo capacity and monke brain said C2. I liked big ships, they have nuances that I liked and would like to own them one day. I had somewhat of a love at first sight with constellation series when I first saw it at New Deal. Once I did get it, I loved it a lot but I kept going back to cutlass black and my starter ship to zip around the verse. I especially did not like the connie sluggish behavior which was uncanny since MSR felt so perfect and both were in a roughly similar class. I just want a ship that doesn't limit me when Pyro finally arrives. Cutlass is awesome but I know I'll have to turbo grind it everytime a wipe comes.
Honestly I do love big ships myself - there’s something about ships like the Carrack that speaks to me and it was the multi-crew experience that really drew me to SC. Compared with other games - knowing that you’re not just looking at a model where you can’t leave the pilot seat makes the size impressive. This is more just me playing devils advocate and trying to point out that owning a large ship is only going to be part of flying one.
@@LoudGuns and you hit the right notes especially with the part of scouting for large ships leaving major commercial hubs. I could see myself as a scout for such things, but more on the lines of protecting my org rather than pirate gameplay(which I am not against. Liked the part about thinking like a pirate. Brings in new perspective for a new player like me. Thanks again, Loud.
@@asiftalpur3758 nice - honestly my biggest piece of advice is to always keep in mind that it’s a PvP game. Even if you’re doing a PvE loop someone can always come along and target you - there’s no line separating us. So think like the person you least want to run into and you’ll avoid that person most of the time 😆
@@LoudGuns oh I've had a few run ins with some non consentual pvp but even knowing nothing about space combat, my war thunder air to air dogfighting muscle memory kicked and made them (4v1) work hard for the kill. I do intend to join your org though, just looking for some breathing room so I can play again
my org is a security org so our job is to protect people who pay us to do so. which will help protect the ships and players more setup for industrial gameplay.
Personally I think NPC / AI will do between 25% and 50% of the jobs on your average ship - with the higher % of human players increasing the efficiency of the ship. That said though even with 50% AI you still need a fair few players to run an average cap ship - and then you put it into the context that few cap ships should really be operated as loan wolves and will need other ships around them too.
Excellent commentary LoudGuns 👌 The dream is usually far better than reality... Like buying that new EV truck... hmm so much torque and all those hi-tech goodies... Followed by the ugly reality of the payments for the next 5 to 7 years. The honeymoon doesn't last very long. Do I want a Javelin...sure... Can I defend it with a few buddies I know who will play StarCitizen...No. May as well paint a huge bullseye on the side if you don't have the football team manning the defences.
@@LoudGuns haha no worries 👍 😉 Low expectations concerning goods and services are norm for me these days... 😏 For those unsure, I'm referring specifically to social media platform technology & policy in this one. Too much salt maybe ? 🤣
I would imagine that components will probably go up in price once the game is released. I remember in Elite Dangerous, you would have to spend like 50% of the value of a ship to get it fully upgraded (I haven't played ED in quite a while, maybe someone who has played more recently can correct my number). That actually seems reasonable to me.
To me as well, I figure getting “good” might be anywhere from 1-5% - that first bump in performance. But then to get that really top of the line feel you might have to get super rare components that could be pricy and / or hard to find - I particularly liked that scene in the recent IAE Jax video of the parts shop in pyro
Love all the thought juice on this channel. With ship prices set to rocket up, I assume you won't be able to keep in-game earned ships after launch. I like the idea of some mechanics forcing a balance, keeping smaller ships viable. I am not in the verse yet but have tracked and consumed as much material as I can since SC started. Looking forward to getting into it soon
I have a Polaris as my only ship, and for a couple months I've been thinking about "downgrading" to (still a large ship) something more manageable, because I have a program too hectic to reliably play with many people... Hammerhead is my ship of choice, because CIG confirmed we'll be able to blade 4 of the 6 turrets, so if I blade 2 (to keep some computer power for other tasks) and have 2 AI crew (entirely reasonable IMO), considering the pilot has control of the non negligeable 32 S3 missiles, the HH might, in the future, become one of the strongest soloable-ish ship... The only thing I'm really not keen on losing is the hangar. I need a place to park my Glaive.
Yeah I do think the HH will be one of the few larger ships that is entirely soloable because of its form. That said - as in your hangar example - you do lose quite a bit of versatility. Just a bit of advice on the grouping / schedule. Maybe just consider looking at an org on the slightly larger end of things. If you’re in a small group it can matter more if someone is around or not, whereas bigger orgs can be a great place for someone with a more hectic schedule. You can drop in and out a bit easier and most of the time you are free to play someone will be there to hang out with.
@@LoudGuns Yes, I'm in a fairly large org already. but I also think having a capital ship, even a small capital as a Polaris, as my only ship beside the fighter, isn't a wise choice... I still haven't melted the Polaris, John Crewe promised 2 months ago a video dedicated to the Polaris, so I wait to see it (if it ever comes) to be sure not to have regrets!
@@captainharlock3998 at the end of the day there’s no harm in waiting right. So much can change with concepts. I weirdly feel this way about my BMM - despite how cool the design looks it’s far more ship than I intended and I don’t know that I want to be a full time merchant.
@@LoudGuns I completely get that. my Polaris was a BMM before. But I ccu-d it when it grew to 240m. it was... just too large for me, even with a crew (plus, the large guns were interesting when it was sub 200m, but not enough for a 240m ship, imo. I'm a pirate, and I just know a single retaliator will be a bad day for the BMM : too much ship for too few turrets...). but the Banu have downright the best ship aesthetics in game, so... I get why it's hard to decide...
@@captainharlock3998 I also feel the same, that's why I pledged the Perseus and Carrack. Both can be crewed with the same # of players 4 - 6 Possibly less with a blade/NPC in safer regions. I have often wondered if BMM's will be robbed like banks ? The BMM IMO is more luxurious than the 890J .
Its something ive always had to bring up when talking to PMCs. Its great that you gouys have x number of Polarises or javelins but you dont even have the active people to crew one let along meet its logi needs. To that affect any time someone internal to my org has been eyeing one off ive always asked two questions Do we have the numbers of regularly active people to crew it? and how would we support it? Wtih that in mind we have always aimed to limit ourselves to ships we can sustainably fully crew and support and in some cases over crew see a 4 man MSR witht he 4th acting as WSO.
Yeah there’s a lot of detail still to be seen, don’t get me wrong I do see the positive side to caps, but I felt they’d already had enough discussion 😂
@@LoudGuns It does feel Ike there's a lot of focus on what they can do and not a lot on what they might need to function eg logistics. I'll also profess a love for small groups of ships aka what we call a mosquito fleet. Eg 2 fully crewed Cutties running interference or a Gladiator. You have 96 missiles on the Cutties to chew through flares ect before the glad fires it's torps
@@gyratingwolpertiger6851 yeah that’s true. I think the issue smaller ships will face in the future is just in being fairly impotent vs large and caps. Once armour is a thing I can see the size 3’s on most single seaters just not even scratching the hull of an Idris.
@@LoudGuns That I can agree with. That Being said run a distraction group of Cutties ect spamming missiles ect and then swap the Gladiator put for an eclipse or two to help punch through the shields. Between turrets and armour it'll be good to see an end to the "light fighter" meta. The moment PTC breaks out a ship with a turret or two the odds are a lot more even than the pirates in light fighters were hoping for.
I know that my Idris is going to spend a lot of time drydocked. While I have enough friends to crew an Idris, we all have lives and responsibilities. It'll come out on some weekends when the group actually wants to play Star Citizen.
Honestly - that's an incredibly healthy view to have. As long as that's your expectation you're not going to get disappointed. Going back to the convertible analogy - to some people they can afford it and it's worth the money just for that sunny day with the top down!
I plan to park my capital ships for a grey market insurance scheme. Selling pirates my coordinates for legitimate salvage, just to turn around and LTI ∞
Haha, although if CIG are smart there will be some form of defence against this. Maybe each time you claim in succession your claim timer goes up? It's still LTI, you just go from waiting a day to a week to a month to..... and so on.
@@LoudGuns that would be a good solution. I know the claim times and fees right now are low for game crash reasons, and we will eventually be getting stock load outs, but we will find ways to have some solo fun with these behemoths one way or another. Even if my idris-k just parks on a ridge overlooking our org pioneer bases with those intimidating pdc turrets and an NPC crew… the future of this game is bright.
I think a 150m combat focused ship would be best, like the Perseus Not too big so a reduce crew can operate it but not too small to be tanky enought I dream of a ship of that size, with big battleship like turret and every room for it to be a base so bedrooms, medical section, a bit of storage, a prison (since I want to be a bounty hunter) and maybe a small fighter
In an SaltEmike interview with people who pirated, they admitted to using bots to mine the chat section for keywords to determine who had what. Hope that helps. There's a WW2 sim currently in Beta called 'Uboat' that has a novel solution for managing AI crew; where the entire side of the ship folds away to provide an 'ant-farm' view of the interior, allowing the captain greater ease in pointing and clicking to assign tasks. Do you think that would help with managing Idris and Javelins in Star Citizen?
I get where info runners are coming from but definitely think they often gloss over the resources need to run the large ships. Current mining is a good indicator of this, you can run a mole with 1 person but it takes a lot more experience and dedication to do so. Take that to an order of magnitude greater and you are likely looking at a team of 3-4 members running at a similar skill level to get real value out of an Orion, or 6-8 more casual players. But that also comes at a much higher risk level with out additional defensive and logistical resources.
Oh I definitely agree with a lot of what they say, in this vid though I was just trying to open up a different side of the discussion and maybe deflate the hype around big ships a little bit of I can. A good thing to remember with a lot of the inforunners vids is that they’re talking to folks who have already sunk a lot of cash into the game and could probably get a better fleet by restructuring. I just want to try to get through to some people who maybe aren’t there just yet.
What good is something like the hull c when you go to buy cargo to sell, all you can normally buy is like 45 scu. What good is that for a ship that holds 4608
I don't think SC would mesh well with a constant money drain system like ED's fleet carrier upkeep. The Fleet Carriers are permanent in the universe the moment you purchase one and you don't pilot them directly. They serve more the purpose of mobile space station. They also physically cannot be destroyed. With SC you'll be able to land and store your capitals, have them blown up or go long times without ever taking them for a ride. It's much more flexible and with a greater potential for loss.
For me the Kraken is the best capital ship. it has so many advantages over the Idris and the Javalin. You can use the kraken as a home base and land on surfaces! The Kraken is worth its money only for that :)
IMHO there are going to be a lot of large ship owners extremely dissapointed. A large, under crewed ship is just going to be a target for an organized boarding party. While I do agree with the "work down, not up" in ship purchasing. But you better have a solid ship you can run solo....and no, you are not going to run something that needs 4+ crew solo. I am absolutely guilty of having a big ship (Merchantman bought when it was $250) and a medium big (Starfarer G), but I run with groups and org a fair amount. I keep a 100i and a Warden around for good reason. I don't always run in a group. A fast pull, and something that can fight solo or with a buddy is absolutely a necessity. I get a good laugh when "fix my fleet" strips players of every small ship, leaving them with a fleet of ships that will all need 4 or 5+ people to run.
When capital ships come in I envision myself selling my time as a mercenary crew or support pilot to supplement capital ships, as overwatch, search, recovery, recon or freight support. Capital ships are not my dance for my game time.
I’d be a lot more worried if the 890J didn’t exist. It’s obviously a big step, but there’s already another big step that’s clearly been done in terms of making large ships with interiors work while hurtling through space shared with other players.
The biggest issue with the capital ships is going to be crew requirements. The most recent numbers show an mean of 500 dollars per Citizen. Assuming its largely mega whales, then whales and so on, I still don't get why people would choose to sit in a Kraken turret all day, over flying their own ship and being their own captain. Oh and AI Tech is just not there yet in any game, enough for the complex systems they have laid out.
@@Texasmule Exactly. I always prefer having someone else fly while in a group. I enjoy manning a turret and I expect to have fun being an engineer or some other crew position in the future.
The best part about smaller ships is that you can actually play them now. Every RAFT or 400i owner has had more fun playing their ship that's been around a few months than the jaded owner of the Endeavour who has been waiting 7 years for even a mention of its existence.
Some truth to that statement, but tbf the loaners matrix usually covers you pretty well. Just speaking as a non-jaded Endeavor owner the cutty red and starfarer are alright to have in the hangar.
Don’t forget about John crewe dropping that line about if you have one billion credits on day one the game will happily sell you a Orion So I do wander if 1 billion uec is a likely price for capital ships
An orion might be buyable day one. Getting an Orion sized ore contract...that might be a problem. I have thought for a long time that Mil ships and Mil variants will probably have a reputation gate. Want a Freelancer? plop down your cash. Want a Freelancer Mis? That will take some rep.
A lot of people with huge fleets of capital ships will be disappointed in the reality of the final release. We are all spoiled by the current claim/insurance placeholder. As someone who owns multiple cap ships myself, I am very aware of how little these ships will be used to their practical advantage. I own them because I run an org, but even then I doubt it will be realistic to use them at every play session.
I think a lot of people will be finding out they bought far more fleet than they can afford to maintain, let alone crew. I expect to see much melting as backers reconfigure their fleets into more viable combinations as the game approaches its release form. A profession starter or medium multirole ship will be the sweet spot for many. I bet it will take a well-organized group to field anything bigger than a Carrack in the first week or two, with Krakens and Orions being the most common big ships at first.
I think it all depends on who you have around you more than what you have in your hangar. It's why as an OL I make it clear that we don't care what you have in your hangar, we care about people.
im beting on turret automation as solo player so basicaly my idea is 2 ships one daily driver for making money -- make cash -- automate turets on biger ship +npc if it will be thing -- then use the biger ship to do pve combat content no pvp -- automated turets should be okay to get down small escorts on bounties while as pilot you put down your main bateries on that hammerhead / other similar size alien ship -- point is take constant stream of missions which will be easy for your big ship to do widouth much effort than risking it on something hard / 50/50 chance -- its fun to see things go boom there ewen tough you basicali bulling npcs😅
partly over hyped cause the cost of running then an crewing them isn't talked on enough, just speculations and the aww of the sizes and purpose cap ships will have. im deff for cap ships though i have 3 big ships on waiting on(polaris,bmm,orion) most of the time small to medium ships makes a lot more sense most the the time unless you have a org you regularly play with to run the big ships or when ai finally comes in to help with some jobs. plus, i got them for the experience theyll bring the opportunity to give others the chance to be aboard the bigger ship without having to blow the money like i did lol. a way of making friends for me it'll be hopefully lol.
Capital ships are largely just a flex and hangar decorations for 90% of players who pick them up. The absolute largest that will be realistically used by individual players with their mates, are going to be around BMM / 890J sized, which happily function with a crew of 4-8. The capital class ships will be org level only, so they’re really not that interesting to me.
I was torn between the Carrack and 600i exp. I went 600i for now, we will see how much of a difference the rework makes. Ultimately it came down to numbers and the pilot controlled guns. I went Caterpillar for cargo and modularity. The Carrack is still one of the best ships though!
Yeah I had the 600i for a bit , but I've always wanted the Carrack . I also had the Caterpillar, I'd say that was my second favourite ship . Enjoy your 600i 👍
I'm gonna say this before the video even starts. It's what I think of big ships personally. Big ships= Endgame. I'll come back and edit if need be afterwards. Edit: you're right. I'm one of those "Big ship" junkies truth be told. Something I did to my fleet not too long ago. I went down the list at every large to capital sized ship I own and I bought a smaller version of each of them. Reclaimer/Vulture Orion/Prospector Hull-D/Hull-C/Freelancer MAX Carrack/Corsair/TBD List goes on. Basically, in the case that I'm unable to operate my larger vessels because people aren't online or aren't interested ATM, I'll always have these fall back ships to use as a solo player.
I own a large ship and hoping CIG brings up NPC crew members by the time we see Capital ships in game.. There are many things I did not consider when buying such a large ship lol
Personally I feel NPC's and AI are much needed additions, but I very much doubt that it will ever be particularly efficient to crew a big ship entirely with them. A human crew is likely to always outperform an AI one. AI should be available to take on some of the less fun roles IMO (point defence turrets that might never fire in a battle for example) but you'll still want some friends for the key roles. Joining a community or org is probably the best bet in the long run.
@@LoudGuns Uhh i am in a very large org... The Capital ships will need to feel lived in, or will seem boring.. We will need AI for the more tedious work, as well as shops in Merchantman and Kraken etc... I'm being realistic because some capital ships require a lot of crew, so 3 or 4 cap ships will be an entire servers player count, which won't be fun... That means we will need NPCs to help crew the largest vessels
I've noticed people say "Oh the Javelin required 80 crew to fully crew it" No the 80 crew capacity is whats called "Dual crew" ideology. Its two crews of 40. Its work for 12 hours off for 12 hours. So full crew is 40 crew members. I can see a Javelin being ran by a skeleton crew of 20 as long as it stays out of much heated combat.
Yeah I’d imagine at the lower end you could skeleton crew these ships but that’d be more for moving them. When it comes to fighting you’d probably want every station manned and a contingent of marines onboard in case you got boarded - wouldn’t want your guns to go silent as your gunners have to become marines.
For real money, bigger is better. But in game, you want to have progression upwards, sideways and downwards. Some ships like the Razor are great to get in game because they're very fun, but you would never spend real money for one. If it's just me online, the Carrack is a bad choice, but the 315p is appealing.
It's all very situational I'd agree. Some people for example might be in 1000 person orgs and have zero issues finding a Javelin crew every day if they've got one to use. I just think that in amongst all of the content (some of which I myself have made) hyping cap ships there should be some content saying why immediate ownership of one might not be so good.
I feel the bang for buck argument is, maybe not flawed, but at least formulated on the wrong assumptions. I.e. that both bang and buck are absolute quantities. Buck, probably, is the closest of the two to an absolute quantity, but I don't think bang is. A more precise metric I think is the logistics required for anything to do its intended job, compounded on the social bubble an individual has within their org (assuming they belong to one); yes, you may be part of an org (I hope to join FRCN soon!), but whether your Kraken or Orion or whatever pays for its bills or not depends on how many people you can reliably have logged in the game maneuvering it. (Reliably = when maneuvering time exceeds drydock time by at least 50%. Personal estimate, I know, but it's something xD) Which means that if you find yourself playing with the usual five or six people within the org, maybe a Carrack with snubs (or Dragonflies!) is probably more efficient for you. However, that's also compounded with the various org nights and the relative "capital ship training" the average org mate has... which all comes down to a deeply, intimately contextual answer xD
I do not want to crack in but I do want to Idris there's reasons why I want to Idris the medical Bay could be improved in it and the interest because if you use that in wartime it brings you back to life as if it was a cheer one ship anyways for medical so that should stay the same and for some of the major ships I'd make sure there's a t1 medical Bay and no matter what just because of what it's supposed to be for especially if you go way out into the verse and it takes you two weeks to get back to go to medical Bay.
![แฉกลโกงงานวัด 2024 [ โกงมั้ยครับ ep.106 ] | DOM](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/taC5dpP3HXA/mqdefault.jpg)
It will be interesting to see actual costs of running/maintaining ships. Not to mention what the finalized economy will look like. This is why I went from thinking Kraken to settling for a liberator and a few other small-medium ships. I do look forward to big events running in cap ships with larger orgs but daily I’ll enjoy running around with friends.
I agree about the liberator. In my mind the libby is a perfect 1-2 man ship and useful for almost everything. The versatility/utility it offers as a mobile home/FOB or a pitstop, or a mining transport hub or as its supposed use a vehicle transport will see alot of use in the bigger systems.
We have a Libby and Kraken but when I want to play on Monday at 2 am it will be a Libby and 2-3 NPC more than likely. And even on Friday night we can't/won't take out a Kraken without support fleet so I need over 50 guys online playing for multi hours .We are a small Org .The one guy on The Info Runners has THREE Javelins and every single person in this game owns at least one ship and can and will buy more and more in game .
Definitely right to be thinking in this way - that was really the thought behind this video, just to get people thinking about some of the pitfalls of cap ships as well as the awesome-ness!
I definitely see my self using smaller ships with a maybe a few players or AI mostly. I think AI will be a big part of players getting their smaller multi-crew ships running, and critical for capital ships.
Yeah - NPC crew is definitely going to be a big part of the puzzle. I can see your average cap ship in particular being 25-50% AI so you have bots covering the less interesting positions (point defence turrets etc).
Yeah, my 600i is one of my two ships and my biggest, I suspect it won't be hard or too expensive to have a couple of NPC's fill in the chairs needed, being I mostly play alone.
@@LoudGuns Honestly, they should cover 100% of all positions most of the time. (Except pilots).
Let's be realistic. As the universe grows in size, crewing a ship with players will become extremely difficult. Right now, crewing just a redeemer? Can take up to 20 minutes of game time for players to gather around. (Even if you plan in advance to minimize crewing time, that still requires every player to log on, travel 20 minutes and land at the rendez-vous.)
In the future? That could take an hour or two. That's an entire play session for most people, just to gather at one location to be a crew member.
The alternative: player crew has to "live" on the ship for a while. It would be their home for a while (yeah that Is NOT going to happen unless you're in a super hardcore role-playing org or something.)
Neither scenarios will work realistically, and capital ships would just gather dust.
At some point, they had the idea of players "agent Smithing" into NPC crews (as a way to teleport to do multicrew without moving any character around). But that idea was dropped.
Unless they give players the ability to teleport into someone's ship, multicrewing even 50% of a capital ship like an Idris with players will be extremely difficult. Too difficult to make cap ships a viable option.
So in my opinion: capital ships should be 100% npc crewable (aside from pilot/captain positions). These would cost a lot and to keep them trained and ready, that will be almost a dedicated profession of its own. So that you can't just fill an Idris with NPCS and call it a day. You need the financial support of a org to maintain it and pay the NPC crew and you will need to spend a lot of hours just to manage the npc crew and keep them effective (say like watching their moral, doing training exercises etc...) In short, being the captain of such a ship would require ressources and dedication. A career choice you must embrace, not something you just jump into one night for the fun of it.
But it is CRUCIAL, that even capital ships do not "require" player crews outside pilots and the captain (so for the Idris, captain and pilots for the fighters inside are players). Otherwise, capital ships will be inoperable for 99% of situations.
Of course, having some players crews should still be "encouraged". But not forced. Like an NPC crew has a moral stat and they can panic and not perform their duties for a while. Something a player crew will never be affected with. So if possible, yes having important positions filled by players should be ideal.
But it is essential for npc crews to act as a "buffer" that allows your capital ship to function and remain active at anytime.
A capital ship isn't just some ship you take out to do bounties. It's a base of operations. And as such it needs to be active for extended periods of times (not just for combat, but to gather and provide intelligence with their capital size radars and scanners, surveillance, medical, refuelling/repair/rearming).
If some of my org buddies need protection just to do a regular mining operation, I should be ready to provide it at anytime.
And with a massive universe where gathering to a single location can take 30 minutes to even a few hours? Crewing with players will be rare (IE: special operations planned in advance)
That's just my take on it anyways.
(Great video by the way)
Sure, I hope there is a lot of sofas for the AI to stand on
Everything listed is exactly why there will be only a few effective caps running around, and a lot of pirate bait.
Your point about price and claim times is really important the balance we see in game now is not expected to be the balance in live, and these values will change both in magnitude, and likely relatively between ships.
Indeed - a lot of folks won’t like those changes when they come but it’s really important for game balance. I don’t want big battles between orgs to end only when one side loses the will to keep going after 48 hours of non-stop returning capital ships!
This is a good video for people to watch before IAE!
I thought this was important before putting out a video about CCU chaining :D
I agree, I love my smaller ships. I’ll just look forward to using org cap ships for big events
I think that’s it - and for some orgs they’ll be able to put cap ship fleets out regularly. I think the important thing to remember is that owning the cap ship is only part of actually getting use out of it.
Me personally I go for the 6 max crew size, that is the largest I will go. I have pledged the Cutlass bk. Taurus, 400i, MSR, Caterpillar, Carrack and the Perseus. Actually all the ships can be run with 4 or less depending on the ship and have low cost to run compared to Cap. ship. All have long range as in distance, crossing a system or two if they are small. Stanton and Pyro are the smaller systems in game the rest are mostly much bigger. There are systems that are 20x bigger than Stanton, let that sink in for a min. You will need a large enough ship to travel across a system bigger than Pyro one way because some systems have very little in them. Unless of course you want to depend on others to carry your ship or come out to refuel it. I really like the vid. and the common sense it makes for the player that wants low running costs, plus less time to coordinate player schedules . Note you don't need as many ships as I have Pledged, I have been with SC since November 07, 2013 so I spent about $150. - 160. a year, which is cheaper than most hobbies and like CR's vision of what games can be if your heart is in it.
Very valid points and is in line with my thought process everytime I look at buying a ship irl. I currently only own a nomad. Everything else I get in game. I've played a few years now and I'm always thinking about getting more ships to add to my hanger but I have a hard time justifying a large purchase. I get by just fine as it is and I get anything I want typically between wipes. But I do want something before too long. I saw you on a server the other day too btw. Have fun and good luck out there.
I think if you’re getting by just fine and you haven’t gone for it yet it’s best to find your people to play together with first. I don’t do telling people how to spend their money - it’s not my thing - but I’d advise anyone who wants to own a large or cap ship to worry about people first and the ship itself second!
@@LoudGuns I agree. I am in a dedicated org and I am friendly with a few others. Another reason why I'm not to worried about it lol. Most of them have all those ships already. I can use them when needed or even as a crew member. I do want my own and I don't want to wait too long as prices only seem to go up. Right now it's save for a ship, joy sticks or a whole new rig. Big decisions lol.
Excellent points as usual. I genuinely wish nothing but joy for those that have the big beasties, but I stick to stuff I can run by myself but with slots for mates when they're about; the largest thing I have on pledge is a 600i but I'm usually in my bought-in-game 400i as a daily driver (stick a cyclone in the hold and it's a fun combo for box running). Your point about low-key transportation of valuables was spot-on, too: all those big ships can get the attention while I'm zipping past in a bundle of 'meh', and one of the great things about SC is that the game supports both approaches.
As a carrack owner, I was very excited to have the ship that came with a vehicle, a smaller ship, and could haul cargo, while working on exploration. I am concerned of the drawback of needing a crew at times come beta or release. But you've raised a good point that I hadn't considered, larger ships are likely to be a target because of what they are. I believe that a carrack can be used for many things, including the unexpected, and I don't think I would ever go larger. I have considered downgrading, but at this stage, I would lose money having owned it since before the price hike (and a smaller ship, and a vehicle). Thank you for sharing! :)
This isn't meant to put anyone off - it's purely just to get the brain juices flowing. A carrack to me is a perfect ship for a group of 3-4. Technically it should be solo-able with a bit of NPC crew to man your turrets but I think it'll come alive more for you with a few friends. I do reckon that even folks who spend most of their time solo would benefit from running in a crew some of the time if you can find the right few people to hook up with.
The biggest solo ships are where the most competition and innovation among the ship manufacturers should be found. I think the best ships haven't even been thought of yet. I'm waiting for the Banu Chop Shop ship...
Haha now I just want a banu chop shop!
Asking how much time capital ships will spend in drydock is an excellent question. I think you’re right that even large orgs won’t be running an orion all the time and the money they make will translate to greater costs. Imagine the cost of having over a hundred players and crew to run a single mining trip. Sure the gains will most likely outweigh the costs but I imagine mistakes could quickly turn the tables on that. Damaging the orion early on could end the expedition immediately and leave you out tens of millions of credits.
Disclaimer: I wrote the following before watching the video.
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Capital ships are cool but I honestly never expect to actually fly one myself. I might contract a Hull-B sometime in my life to transport all my (small orgs) ships to a new system but I doubt I’d even fly that.
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I don’t care for capital ships as actual ships. I like to think of them as either a tool for things like transportation or a FOB. In some rare circumstances, they can be used for combat but I suspect orgs would only do so with calculated precision to ensure they don’t lose it. More likely than not, the capital ship will provide a novel fireworks show by unceremoniously destroying the target(s) or dropping off the strike force they carry. In the unlikely event that they get caught in a trap and are put in danger of being destroyed, that would be exciting. The crew would be busy furiously managing power, disabling systems, locking doors, doing repairs, fending off enemy ships, and potentially boarders. The attackers would be in a dream scenario of invading an enemy capital ship to destroy it or eliminate the crew.
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Overall I’m skeptical that people are willing to assume the risk of destroying their most expensive assets for the sake of excitement so they’d only use them if they were confident that it wasn’t in significant danger which would make it boring.
I've shared these concerns for a while too, but it's impossible to deny that something like the Endeavor concept has insane value when compared to something like an Eclipse.
Yep it’s a very tricky one, but cash bang for buck exists in a lot of things. Those sit on lawnmowers are extremely good value compared to a little flymo - but if you’ve only got 10 square meters of lawn you don’t buy the sit-on 😂
In my opinion, the hype has nothing to do with power, but with potential gameplay. A cap ship is basically a flying raid dungeon, both when you crew it and when you and your people try to destroy or capture it. Many people miss the days when they went on their evening adventures with their 25 and 40 man groups. Cap ships will make this interesting again with a cool sci-fi spin. Coordinated group play is always great, And 20+ people being on a ship makes SC quite unique.
I do miss the 40 man dungeons in WoW. The best of times (for the most part).
This is a very good point. So much of SC's appeal falls into that category - the potential gameplay there is out there. I think if your goal in owning a capital is to relive the glory days of MMO raiding then you're not going to be disappointed. I think the issue will come for people who maybe do approach it as buying power.
@@LoudGuns I believe the success of finding the gameplay they want from a capital ship will come down to the ability to commit the time and effort to game and finding (or building) a good org with like-minded people willing to work toward that goal. Owning a capital ship is a miniscule small fraction of what it will take to find 'the gameplay those people are looking for'. Short-cutting the process of getting a capital ship by paying cash for it could actually be detrimental to their goal. Getting organized enough to actually get those ships in game is a litmus test (one of) as to whether or not you are ready to spawn and maintain such a ship. Just my opinion. Your mileage may vary.
@@markr4404 agree - actually acquiring high value things in games (like cap ships in SC) is often the test. Like in Elite - 5m-30m credits a week sounds like a lot to maintain your fleet carrier but it’s really not if you had the 0.5bn credits to buy the thing in the first place.
Great video! For now most of the time i'm flying with Freelancer Max with 122 SCU or a smaller ship like Gladius or Cutter. But later on when big ships gonna be in ther verse, i'll be more often on them and using medium and small ships to avoid any attention like you mentioned .I'll be happy to have you onboard one of my big ship.
Interesting vid, and good points as always. I'm currently CCUing my way towards a Polaris, which as a small combat capital I think will take about 10 to effectively crew (advertised 6-14). For anyone who has tried tomcrew up a hammerhead, they'll know that's a pain already. It will definitely be something that gets taken out less frequently than a Redeemer etc. but I'm interested in experiencing the full range of combat gameplay (which people can do by crewing other people's ships!)
I also think if will be hard to make decent money with combat capitals. The new critical threat combat assist beacons would only be 30-40k per crew member. The benefit will more be in org vs org scenarios, so they might be something that costs to use - but is worth it for the added capability.
Another point that comes up is 'how many of x ship does the org need'. The anwer for a small org is easier, but for a bigger org you have to consider timezones, ship owners availability to play (and/or delegate captaincy), and how many systems the org is operating in. One Orion might be good for a 20 person European mining org operating in Stanton, but a 200+ person global mining org might need 3 if operating accross Stanton/Pyro/Nyx, and maybe 6-9 if they want to run them around the clock and can't do crew handover.
Cheers Daard - also all interesting points! I've always sort of thought that for an org that does industry & combat - the combat side is likely to be a long-term investment more than a money spinner. Would be really happy if combat washes it's own face, but certainly cap ships will probably either be for high end raid type content (big PvE battles etc) or for Org v Org like you say.
The point about multiple locations is a really good one, and also to some degree contingency will be important - having a new cap ship to jump in if your first one gets knocked out of commission could be critical. Just when it comes to people buying these things I don't know how they would feel if their massive purchase is relegated to "backup ship 3".
That said I don't personally think for people in reasonably sized orgs that crew will be an issue long term - it's a key reason to find an org you gel with to my mind. I always think of everyone who's playing right now as an early adopter. People who come later are (if the game is good) likely to outnumber us by many times and will more likely than not just get a starter pack. Those are the folks who are going to be keen to crew on caps.
I like this subject. Cap ships are going to be big targets like you say. They should have escorts along with their crew. And for players that are mostly solo players, capital ships are too big to look at.
Especially if they're not willing to team up
I very much keep coming back to the phrase "takes a village to raise a child" when I think about cap ships!
great video. you've definitely helped me fight off the desire to grab a capital ship and maybe pickup some large/medium instead. I play a lot mostly solo so the giant ships wouldn't end up crewed very well.
i would never buy one myself, but i´m pretty hyped for capital class ships flying around the verse and hiring crew members
Unless CIG manages to make crew gameplay very engaging, I fear most of these will sail around full of A.I.
@@BadTactics101 My org leader owns a Hammerhead, I find nothing more boring than manning these damn turrets for an hour.
And if engineering gameplay is live, you gotta be a special kind of person to enjoy that, I guess :D
Different smokes for different folks on the roles thing - I think cap ships should offer a decent balance. Being the gunner on a Javelin's dual size 8's or an Idris' Rail Gun might be exciting, but point defence turret number 3 will likely be dull as dishwater (and therefore farmed out to AI). 1337chevelle is right - it's down to CIG to make the roles on offer engaging and fun.
@@batz_benzer I agree. Being a gunner was fun the first few times I did it and it helps to have a sizable beverage on hand. But most nights it's just sitting around for 95% of the gameplay , and the other 5% is being frustrated that the pilot keeps rolling the ship when you finally line up the shot.
In eve online, small high value things always got moved by small fast ships. There's a place for big ships, and I think a lot of people will be learning that the hard way in Sc.
Yep same in Atlas. Even if you push your biggest ships / biggest fleet out there's every chance that there's someone out there who is bigger than you.
@2:50 yes this is the argument - however larger ships require way more people and will be exponentially more difficult to use as a result. Even though it makes way more money it cost way more. I suspect at most the best normalish (excluding extremely difficult/high risk activities that will always be 'the top profit') profit to be expected per hour in game effort will at most double between say the smallest solo miner and the largest miner in the game (currently Orion but long term probable we will likely see others).
Always enjoy yours vids and your POV! I agree on most, and I especially agree that Cap Ships need long, maybe not weeks, but def days, claim time. Keep em comin!
Btw, are you a Scotland resident. I love that kind of weather!
You love sideways rain? :D Thanks and much appreciated!
I completely agree. I think it's cool that capital ships exist, however they should be incredibly rare and hard to get,. I understand at the moment there is a reason behind selling big ship for irl money but I hope in the future they are going to be locked behind a reputation wall or a ton of money.
Indeed - I believe CIG have indicated that once we're at live ship sales will be a much smaller part of the picture with larger ships no longer available for $$$.
I absolutely agree.
That's why I only own ships of up to 3 Crew members currently.
Although I do play with the idea of buying a Kraken, not because I think that I will be able to constantly run it with a full crew, nor because I want to field multiple fighters in a situation, but because I think about using it as a base of operations for rescues.
I own a SRV and a Vulcan, and some friends and I were thinking about also getting a Cutlass Red (or possibly Apollo Triage) on top, so that we would be able to offer all kinds of rescue operations. However, we don't have enough people to field all those vehicles at the same time. With a carrier ship for at least medium sized vessels however, we would be able to react to rescue operations depending on a case by case basis, with additional hangars/pads open for the rescued individual's ships and enough space on board to house the crew of those as well.
I am hesitant however, for one due to the price, for second due to the amount of people needed as a skeleton crew for it, and for a third due to not knowing if there might be another carrier vessel comming between the Liberator and the Kraken, since the former isn't big enough to support the Cutlass and the Vulcan, while the latter has the already mentioned issues.
Makes sense to me that there would be more carriers - the Kraken is a pretty huge step up (and personally I can see it growing in size to accommodate other ships that have also grown). The Lib is undoubtedly a carrier but I view it as very much a ship ferry (ship) as opposed to an active carrier - there’s a niche I think for something more Polaris sized with space for 2-3 ships.
If you’re particularly interested in medical rescue type gameplay have you looked at the endeavor though? Gives you an actual hospital and a hangar for your cutty red with the right modules.
@@LoudGuns I'm interested in the multitude of facets that rescue operations can have, from medical rescues, over what is essentially essentially highway support, to the liberation of stuck vessels.
I like to be able to change what I do in this game within an hour or so, and rescue gameplay will likely offer a wide variety of activities.
I haven't looked too closely into the Endeavor yet, because from the concept of it it sounds like it will likely grow even more than the Merchantman did. And with a size of 200m as the original concept I'm a bit hesitant about the actual size and crew requirements this ship will ultimately have.
Particularly since it'll likely be one of the latest additions to the game due to the modularity and all the game loops it touches on.
The only big ship I could see myself being a part of for an EXTENDED amount of time if the landing pad one. Love my eclipse and feel as the two would work perfectly together!
For years I had the idea that the bigger the ship, the less useful it was to most players (including myself) because more of its functionality was missing the larger it got without a full crew. A Carrack didn't interest me at all, an 890 jump was a labyrinthine monster that was more of a romantic idea than a useful thing to use in 95% of play sessions.
The longer I play, the larger the ship I gravitate towards, especially with the larger servers and medical 0, current shield totals, etc. Being able to do things with multiple people is going to be better and better every year, and getting a group together isn't so bad if you join an active discord or org.
I can now see how cool flying a fully-crewed Hammerhead is because I've finally done it. It's not cumbersome, it's a freaking juggernaut with walls of lasers flying out of it in all directions. I can see how cool a carrack is because I've gone out with 5 guys and done FPS missions with it. I no longer see the Redeemer as a low-maneuverability ship with most of its firepower gated behind having people in the turrets, I think of it as ALLOWING you to bring 2 people and give them both tons of firepower to run VHRT/ERTs while in voice comms together. And so forth.
I think a lot of people can't close their eyes and accurately wrap their brain around how ships will fit into the final game. Lots of times you will lose a fight and your ship will be turned into a space nugget but you won't die. And the larger ships will have almost insurmountable amounts of shields and armor and hp. You're not going to automatically lose a Kraken to 4 dudes in Vanguards. Like with Eve, you'll have time to ping a Discord and get people online to man and defend the capital ship. Capital ships won't take 1-2 minutes to take down, they'll take much longer even under heavy fire. That's cool. That's a reliable home base you can defend.
But my strong feeling is that the medium multicrew ships with a usable cargo area - the MSR, the Constellation, the Herc, the 600i, and so forth - will be the way to find massive fun down the road. Hop in one, find 4 other players, get into trouble. People flying big ships around solo will be kind of pointless. I like that. It gives everything purpose.
Why bring 4 vanguards against a low crew Kraken.
Legionaire, board, take the ship.
Crew isn't only about manning the stations and guns, it is about being able to repell a boarding party.
When I bought my Idris in like, 2017 I had a sizeable group to play with. Now after the years my dedicated group to play with has dwindled.
I'm basically just intending to use it as a mobile base that I'll keep in Deep Space in w/e system I'm operating in, perhaps I'll eventually look to joining an org, renting it out, or for some events.
Regardless of what ships are in your hangar I'd definitely recommend running with an org or a community - some people just don't like playing with others which is totally ok, it's just that this does mean you'd probably miss out on some of the game's content since it is being designed to cater to the multiplayer crowd.
I think you missed another drawback of the cap ships. I saw somewhere where CIG said you would not be able to despawn/stow them like other ships. Which I take to mean that once they are out; they are out until they are destroyed. Even if you and everyone log on it logs out; the ship will remain in the game waiting for someone to to steal it. These ship are going to be not only for orgs; but orgs of significant size and organization. Not the couple of friends getting together on a weekend. At least that is the way I took it. I also agree with you that the claim time on those ship will be going up a lot. I would expect a week or more for the smaller capital ships and multiple weeks for a Javelin or probably any that are 'hull limited quantity'.
This is true and IMO the reason is they can't fit in a Hangar, only docked to a station. Although things could change before launch of the game where the ship could despawn if all crew is logged out and no one is in the area to see it disappear, but you would run into the same problem bringing it back into the game. (no one is in the area to see it)
@@jedi_drifter2988 a dock could be treated as a hanger if they wanted it to for the purpose of stowing a ship. I think CIG's idea is that capital ships should be crewed 24/7 (and in general only used by large orgs). Considering how many of them they sell it individuals it will be interesting how their thoughts on cap ships will evolve (if at all).
@@c-mcd7618 A dock is outside ... A hangar is inside. That is why CIG is doing away with landing pads on stations. It breaks the emersion when the players watch ships, pop in and out like magic.
@@jedi_drifter2988 That isn't the main reason pads are going away. The main reason is people pad ramming and otherwise attacking ships on the pads. The immersion may be another reason; but it isn't the main one (from what I've heard). Another reason for hangers has to do with cargo; specifically the facilities to load and unload cargo. Not sure how the cargo thing is going to work with a space dock. (Un)loading a Hull D or E might be interesting.
@@c-mcd7618 They will use ships that have tractor beams like the Taurus, Caterpillar etc. to unload Hull C-D-E ...
I agree with your view. Medium ships will play a significant role due to its assumed moderate cost to operate and crew requirement. I would rather drive out in droves of medium class vessels than a large cap class ship unless I can muster enough heads for a proper fleet, hence I have limited myself to corvette/frigate class ships.
I think it's healthy to step back from the buying angle and look at where these ships are likely to fit in the overall game - ultimately to me they're end game content for organisations rather than early game content for small groups.
Hey Ray! Congratulations mate you won the September prospector giveaway!
@@LoudGuns Thank you!
Eh…yeah, I’ve been sucked into this, stayed with my starter Titan for six months, but after grinding aUEC in-game to buy every ship I wanted, I’ve started the CCU game, saved $60 on the Scorpius, and now halfway through my BMM chain. And yes, I have hanger queens, including a loan Prospector.
There's nothing wrong with buying the ships you want, and I (because it's exactly what / why I've done) can understand buying ships for cash because you're a bit time poor and know you won't necessarily have the time to grind so much. But I think capital ships need to have these kind of "buyer beware" warnings on them - because I worry that if they are correctly balanced for end-game they might not be the thing you immediately get out of the hangar in the early game.
@@LoudGuns yea it could really suck if the cap you pledged for doesn’t work the way you assumed, like a lot of players think a Polaris will be a big torpedo boat that a solo pilot can use. I was sucked into the BMM hype when its WarBond was released at Invictus, but reckon when Pyro is released you will see it infested with player-manned BMMs, which will really load the persistent servers.
I get the feeling that for many if not most players, the so-called medium ships will in fact be the endgame. Once resource subsystems and the like come online, the plan is that larger ships ultimately just won’t be practical to operate solo; you’ll need to either hire NPC crew (which will cost money & likely have some associated captain gameplay) or get some friends to crew your ship.
To get an idea of where multi crew ships are headed, look at the difference between the Prospector and the Mole. Sure the Mole can carry a lot more ore & eventually will be able to break some rocks that the Prospector can’t, but if you don’t have the crew, why bother?
I think this is a good video, likely most of your points are exactly the long term plan. Multi crew ships should need multiple crew members. People planning to solo their Idris with NPCs on day 1 should be sorely disappointed that they simple don’t have the capital for their capital.
So many good phrases coming out of this - "do you have the capital for your capital?" is one I may borrow going forward
@@LoudGuns you’re welcome to it.
medium size ships are the most convenient size for running around in with some mates and doing some tasks solo
It’s tough, because as someone who plays solo mostly currently, I’m torn with larger multi-role ships like the MSR vs having several smaller ships that can do the same job. Great video, fantastic topic to discuss.
The speed of the MSR makes it one of the medium ships that I think will actually solo decently if you are just hauling point A to B.
Speed controls engagement.
Once you can slave the MSR's two turrets to the cockpit with blades itll be good as a multi role ship.
Right now if you want to bounty hunt you'll want at least one other.
I think ships like the MSR should be completely affordable to solo, but just ultimately better with a mate or 2. And tbf I think even players who are mostly solo-ist's would benefit from getting on some form of small crew with another person or 2 who want similar things from the game. Where I don't think solo-ing will be financially viable is when you reach higher to something like the Polaris for instance.
I agree completely. despite the fact that i want a carrier, i am not in an org that could make use of it. and flying it solo would be a terrible idea.
Totally with you on the starter ship. I keep on thinking about upgrading my aurora but I never do.
Lucked out and somebody used my referral code and ended up with an argo cargo bonus which is what I’ve been updating.
Yeah it’s incredibly useful to always have an insta claim ship in your hangar. I particularly like the Aurora myself too - mainly because of the bed which I think will be really important going forward.
@@LoudGuns Indeed. My first purchase in the verse is always an Aurora as a backup 'life raft' vessel.
@@jeremymtc space camper for the win!
You bring up some good points, no offense taken at all. I'm, not a big fan of the ship becoming more expensive. No one wants to take the time to earn the cash for any ship knowing you will lose it during the next patch. There should be two UEC prices, one with insurance and the other without. The other area which I also found interesting was the destruction of a capital ship. You are correct it would not be fair for a Kraken to be destroyed and 10 minutes later shows up back in the fight. A ship of its size should take at least 24 hours to respawn. If a capital ship is damaged it should take anywhere from 30 minutes to 4 to 5 hours depending on how severe the damage. All this depends on if the crew is doing repairs in flight, or the ship returns to base for repairs. There is a lot to consider when capital ships are launched, one thing is for sure they will NOT be a one-man operation by no means. I can see ships that walk the line of the capital ship, ships like the Odyssey, and the Perseus recategorized as support ships. I can see ships like Carrack being the smallest ship to have a full med bed one day. Due to its exploration capabilities, it should have a full meddled for severe injuries. Either way, there will be a lot of decisions to be made and not everyone is going to be happy. I think the best way is to out a survey to existing members and then make a decision from there. This way The members have an idea of what to expect.
I like you. I think all of you videos are spot on. I got in an argument with another YTer who said small ships are useless because other can’t jump around the many systems. Don’t get me wrong, I love folks pledging for cap ships. They are finding my dream game. However, as a pirate, I’m going to ruin their fun. A cap ship owner doesn’t have the amount of friends willing to leave their ships parked so they can man all of your stations. Big solo ships are going to be the sweet spot so you can max earning potential but also fleet up with friends and maybe get a couple ai for your turrets. Besides, most gamers are solo so cap ships are going to be rare.
Thanks Mike! It's all very situational - some orgs are big enough and well organised enough that if Cap Ships dropped in to the game tomorrow they'd have them fully rigged and sailing immediately. I just think that in amongst the cap ship hype (some of which I made :D ) we should take a look at the counter-arguments / downsides.
Good thoughts. As a mostly solo player (although I do also lurk in your Discord), I'm interested in how big a ship I'll be able to operate, how many gameplay loops will be closed to me simply because I can't crew the relevant ships, and how much cap ships will just take over the game. I think there are a lot of tough design problems for CIG there, but I'm hopeful they'll come out with some good solutions! Definitely an area to keep an eye on.
Sorry - sometimes I don't get notifications! Lurk away! Personally I believe CIG are trying to put the Multiplayer in MMORPG and I kinda view Cap Ships and the fleets you'd need supporting them as the end-game content of SC. Hopefully there will still be plenty of stuff for smaller groups and ships to do and if the devs incentivise it right then hopefully the bigger orgs will be looking / happy to work with smaller groups as opposed to crushing them. That said there needs to be some kind of content that rewards the players who put the time and effort into organising - building an organisation and keeping the members happy isn't an easy thing to do so it needs to be rewarded with some kind of gameplay that can only be achieved that way.
@@LoudGuns Yeah absolutely, I definitely want multiplayer to be a big thing in SC. But the fact is that it takes a lot of organisation (as you know all too well 🙂) and sometimes I just wanna jump into the game and do some quiet space trucking, without making it something I have to schedule and commit to. (And I suspect that affects most players a bit and even dedicated group players sometimes.)
As you say, hopefully they'll design it so that small groups that don't need so much admin can still have a good time, and that will also benefit anyone who's having a solo play session.
Thanks for the awesome videos
6:30 - a beautiful example of your Paint skills there ;)
Very good points and pretty much the way i thought about ships. I expect cap ships to be expensive to operate and not fully playable when flown alone.
I also don't think the term "startership" is correct. While the Mole and the Reclaimer are cool and effective ships, i see prospectors and vultures to be much more used on a daily basis. Group play is the key here.
I also like the "fly under the radar" approach. Additionally not being able to let go of my Titan, the Pisces is always the first ship i buy in game.
Besides that i have only multipurpose ships, with the highest crew requirement being 3.... on my MSR. So i have only ships that are ok to fly alone, but offer a good benefit when flown with a few friends.
Thanks mate! Yeah I see the prospector/vulture much more as “Profession Starters” as opposed to “starters” which for me covers anything you can insta-claim with expediting like the Aurora, Pisces, Titan etc.
@@LoudGuns I also don't see them as "profession starters". They are simply single pilot ships. I have seen people mining in a Mole solo, but its impractical for now. With more and more systems coming to the game, i see profession ships like the Mole to become less efficient when flown solo.
If you never plan to mine/salvage with others, you don't use anything beside the Prospector and the Vulture. Ships are not stepping stones, they are tools.
TLDR: like the video and discussion points. Had a lot of additional thoughts provoked by them.
Several of the things you mentioned raised some interesting thoughts. While I would not mind owning a Kraken it would, for me, mostly be about the novelty (and the pokeman gotta get'em all aspect) rather than actual playability. To my mind ships larger than 4-6 crew are definitely org minded vessels. It is not too hard to envision even a small org oriented around an Expanse which is technically a single operator ship but which can provide a service to several people. For those who want to play solo, the smaller ship sizes, or something which can be nominally "Crewed" with AI/blades will be the ships of choice.
The sheer flexibility of the number of ships and potential play styles makes for a lot of awesome game play. Salvage and restoration make rebuilding a "destroyed" capital ship a realistic possibility and the idea an org would have to provide/acquire resources to do so in addition to security is almost mind boggling to comprehend. I would expect to see smaller orgs with similar but separate agendas making alliances and working together on certain types of projects. Other orgs will be looking to take advantage of those projects and yet other orgs will be looking at the merc angle for both sides.
While the org I am a member of now is not very active, the premise it was founded on resonates with me, and I trust it still resonates with those who are not currently playing. I also trust they will play and we can realize that premise together. For the record it is not a pirate org and considerably more altruistic than most.
IMO, Cap ships are bases. They provide strategic benefit to those able to use them and smart orgs will do what they can to protect them. Large fleet battles will happen. With longer claim times and operational/repair costs associated with them those battles will hopefully be rare. When they do occur however, the salvage/reclamation/rebuild/repair phase will kick in with some attempting to strip as much as possible, others looking to get a given ship functional enough to fly out and repair elsewhere, etc. A fleet battlespace will be an active hot zone for potentially weeks and orgs should give some serious thought to how that post-battle environment looks. Hope for the best, plan for the worst but have a plan.
On a separate note - content. SC will not simply be about ships. There is a rudimentary "Quest" system which exists now. They have been talking about more dynamic events which can/will affect players anywhere (one might argue some of that exists already with certain settlements/bunker locations also being spawn points for bounty missions and some of the NPC pirate activity in the middle of a QT). I am truly hoping for considerably more such content which will either be tailored for group play or which can/will scale to group play. Several people have commented on how "stupid" the AI in bunkers is now. That's going to change. I for one have run into a couple of situations in which the current AI has effectively (if not intentionally) set up an ambush. The talk about improving AI sensing and communication are awesome (and terrifying!) but will greatly enhance the viability (and need for) group play.
One of the things I really love in SC is no ship is "the ship" that can just do it all and everyone will end up flying. But one of the big things there when it comes to cap ships is that even if you can put one of them out - that on it's own probably won't be enough. You'd need to consider the vessels to support it as well.
I too hope that as we get more info in the future the focus on ships decreases somewhat in favour of other aspects of the end-game; territorial control, reputation, dynamic events in a multi-system verse etc.
I’ve heard rumors that when SC gets out of alpha it will become very hard to grind for a ship, a capital ship may be a few years of grinding with crew members.
My vision of the verse is exploration/trade. Preferably with a capital ship that can hold a terrapin for scanning.
Indeed, I can easily see cap ships going for 500m and up. But to me this fits with the idea of then being an org as opposed to an individual’s purchase. Realistically though anything game devs think will take years will end up taking players months 😆
Won't be years, but a few months, I see that happening, yes. However, like every game, there'll always be those very big orgs who pool their efforts and grind capitals in a single hard day's work...
IMO when sc goes live you won't be able to buy some ships ingame W/out a certain rep level. Say you want to get a Polaris, you might have to have a high rep lvl with the UEE Navy and have no gang related activities or frequent jail times, on top of a few years of grinding ?
@@jedi_drifter2988 Rep will absolutely be a thing when buying certain ship. The BMM immediately springs to mind. However no ship will take years of grinding. Months, I can see this happening, but far far far from even one year. SC remains a game first and foremost.
@@jedi_drifter2988
Yup, sounds very plausible. More reason to buy these ships now, preferably with LTI and in concept.
The only possible issue we could encounter is CIG trying to give new players a fair chance when SC goes live by holding back capital ships for a certain amount of time.
Maybe best to get a wide variety of ships and land deeds to rush and claim the best locations. I might need to get a second job 🤔
The way I see it, all these people buying big ships is just going to make more demand for my in-game services as a happy crewman/turret gunner. Really looking forward to being a Reclaimer's cargo manager in 3.18.
outside of the few mega orgs cap ships will be staffer with far less players. It will be easier to hire 10 fighters than 5 sit in a bubble for an hour gunners. and I think there will be both formal and informal ship renting from the whales.
I tried to keep this in mind when I chose my ships, obviously you’ll be solo quite often so I have a Warden and a Vulture, if a friend comes along the wardens great solo or with 1 more player, and for more than that I got a Corsair for 2-4 peeps.
Really sensible - I for one am really happy to see how CIG is releasing less massive cap ships now and instead widening the variety in the 2-6 person range.
"Sticking your body on the bow of the kraken" LOL I see your point but I dont want the big ships to own anyone but to make my life easier. I would like an Orion but its the amount of people I would need to operate it that puts me off . Also if you get that much cash early on in the game you may not have anything to do :) I look at myself as Support I wont to go out and help people to repair their ship , have a base where people can come repair re arm and refuel and be on their way giving me cash and all I have to do is get the stuff mine refine, salvage. My idea is to have a Crucible put a Vulture in it so you can salvage and then repair :D
Interesting take as always. I don't think what CIG wants, from a game that still have to launch, is to piss off new players because the "Whales" have already got all the cake. I'm a small sized Whale myself, having spent barely short of 2K (Pluls VAT! 😓), but that's because I like to explore game loops and try new things when they come out: that's why I have probably 3 times more credits in long CCU chains, I still have to apply, rather then sitting on ships I can actually fly. Capital ships are something I really don't delve too much in, especially if they require a lot of crew members to operate. I own a Liberator CCU, a Banu Merc CCU, a Reclaimer CCU and a Hull-C CCU, running across several smaller and cheaper ships that might do for me if I decide to pass on the big boats.
The point is that we know nothing about the release: how much would these ship cost to maintain? Will there be taxes to pay for them? how much fuel will cost in the future? How will crews be managed, when on board for prolonged times, like on an Exploration ship, far away from known space? How will long sessions on a mining enterprise be managed, as crew members logs in and out of the game in their spare time? What when Death will become a real issue?
ATM every player is a fleet, either owning an Org or being part of a large one, but what happens when an Org has too many capital ship for it's needs, and too few members, owning possibly several copies of the same ship? can you make any use of 12 Krakens, and how often?
This is, at the end of the day, a First Person Exploration Game, not EVE, and you can only be on one ship at a time. I'm worried players will ask high prices for their services, as there are more large ships then players crewing them, and we don't even know the state of AI crews once the game will be out.
Providing interesting game play for each hour your crew is working on a ship, when you are the captain, can be a daunting endeavour. This is why I shun ships requiring large crews, as I know I can easily sell my services to someone, when I feel like playing in a crowded ship, rather then wasting my time looking for someone to join my crew each time I feel like I want to take out my Javelin.
I have a orion LTI and a prospector LTI I got the pros for the purposes of getting the start up funds for example crew/components/paying for loading and off-loading/and protection.
Just the cost of a orion to get Ingame will be in the billions to lose that in the game I suggest hiding the sharp knives.
i mainly look at capital ships as giving up gameplay for more attack power. they have all the negitives of worn out parts ect but many wont be good or able to land planetside. and if out in the black might suffer major damage that needs special repairs.
deep space is probably the best place for them but large ships can still go there they just wont be able to fight the capital ships. i find it more likely that you will run into large ships more than large npc capital ships for the most part and if a large fleete did run into an npc capital ship its easier to take down most likely than a major player org with fleets of them.
jump points are the major thing i think about a lot tho. if i buy a capital ship can it travel with my large ships. if not it will be on its own for a long period and my fleet doesnt get the bonus of having it around. and if i travel together my large fleet has the risk of being caught by capital ships.
then we also got potentially smaller signitures compared to some capital ships. as take a kraken for instance thats a massive target with a lot of signiture and compare that with 2 liberators, i would bet the libs are more likely to slip past more than the kraken.
Great content Loud Guns! Hope to see you in the 'Verse!
Thanks mate! See you out there!
I am so glad I have a prospector aswell as a orion to get my funds up before I take out my orion to pay my org for personal and defence I will defernatly will not be doing any direct roots to sell I may even pretend to be a noob and announce in chat if a station is safe then go to another one to looer them away.
I have a Kraken and can’t wait for it to come into the game. 10 years maybe? When it does the real problem will be whether it will persist in the PU or whether anyone in my or org will be able to spawn the ship if I’m not logged into the game. I hope that becomes possible
Org tools are sorely in need of updating, and are a must way ahead of capital ships coming in to the game. Anyone who has multiple ships realistically needs to be able to share access to them within their org to get the most out of them.
Plus, they can scan your hold and know what you’ve got. Hopefully we can get shielded containers for a little extra containment cost.
But does the fact that it's shielded just make it more interesting? :D
@@LoudGuns depends on the scan results. It would be super fun to set up a “boarding trap” assuming scanning will at least register the occupied volume metrics when the cargo is shielded. Fully loaded c2 with some worthless shielded cargo that just looks juicy, crewed by an elite squad of fps legionnaires ready to tag some pirate toes.
@@ninefive0 maybe the cargo is the legionnaires? 😂
In the end, the value of any given ship is in the eyes of the owner. For me, buying tons of ships now, before the game is even out, is counter productive. Grinding my way to a new ship, and finally being able to buy it in-game, will be my main motivation to play. If I have everything from the start, why even bother...
I can definitely get behind this now. I frequently do zero to hero type runs starting with an Aurora or a Mustang just to give myself the gameplay in the current game. This isn't me saying "go buy ships" but I do hope that in the future that there is a lot more to the game than buying the next ship up on the ladder. Would love to see an end-game centred on territory and reputation as opposed to "grind x million creds - buy ship - repeat".
It definitely gives me something to think about. I was contemplating getting another capital ship in my fleet (Polaris) and I’m still deciding whether it’s worth it or just keep my BMM as my heavy hitter since it has some big guns on it already. I don’t know if I could crew both the BMM and the Polaris at the same time. Plus if things go to shit I could always use the BMM’s speed to get away from the fight if I’m fighting another capital ship and things aren’t going well for my side. I already have a decent sized fleet and adding another capital to it might not be the best thing if I can’t crew it and it’s just sitting there. At least in early game since I could probably buy the Polaris in game with the money I make with the BMM and Reclaimer
“Something to think about” was all I was really going for so I’m glad it helps in that regard 👍
As someone who's very new to SC, I did wanted big ships and I got my hands on a couple. The community is great and they basically showered me with aUEC. Not knowing much, I went for the biggest cargo capacity and monke brain said C2.
I liked big ships, they have nuances that I liked and would like to own them one day. I had somewhat of a love at first sight with constellation series when I first saw it at New Deal. Once I did get it, I loved it a lot but I kept going back to cutlass black and my starter ship to zip around the verse. I especially did not like the connie sluggish behavior which was uncanny since MSR felt so perfect and both were in a roughly similar class.
I just want a ship that doesn't limit me when Pyro finally arrives. Cutlass is awesome but I know I'll have to turbo grind it everytime a wipe comes.
Honestly I do love big ships myself - there’s something about ships like the Carrack that speaks to me and it was the multi-crew experience that really drew me to SC. Compared with other games - knowing that you’re not just looking at a model where you can’t leave the pilot seat makes the size impressive.
This is more just me playing devils advocate and trying to point out that owning a large ship is only going to be part of flying one.
@@LoudGuns and you hit the right notes especially with the part of scouting for large ships leaving major commercial hubs. I could see myself as a scout for such things, but more on the lines of protecting my org rather than pirate gameplay(which I am not against.
Liked the part about thinking like a pirate. Brings in new perspective for a new player like me. Thanks again, Loud.
@@asiftalpur3758 nice - honestly my biggest piece of advice is to always keep in mind that it’s a PvP game. Even if you’re doing a PvE loop someone can always come along and target you - there’s no line separating us. So think like the person you least want to run into and you’ll avoid that person most of the time 😆
@@LoudGuns oh I've had a few run ins with some non consentual pvp but even knowing nothing about space combat, my war thunder air to air dogfighting muscle memory kicked and made them (4v1) work hard for the kill.
I do intend to join your org though, just looking for some breathing room so I can play again
my org is a security org so our job is to protect people who pay us to do so. which will help protect the ships and players more setup for industrial gameplay.
Tbh the lynch pin on how convenient Caps will be, is gonna be the NPC crew to supplement humans
Running a Polaris shouldn't be too hard tbh
Personally I think NPC / AI will do between 25% and 50% of the jobs on your average ship - with the higher % of human players increasing the efficiency of the ship. That said though even with 50% AI you still need a fair few players to run an average cap ship - and then you put it into the context that few cap ships should really be operated as loan wolves and will need other ships around them too.
Excellent commentary LoudGuns 👌
The dream is usually far better than reality...
Like buying that new EV truck... hmm so much torque and all those hi-tech goodies...
Followed by the ugly reality of the payments for the next 5 to 7 years.
The honeymoon doesn't last very long.
Do I want a Javelin...sure...
Can I defend it with a few buddies I know who will play StarCitizen...No.
May as well paint a huge bullseye on the side if you don't have the football team manning the defences.
An excellent summary! Sorry it took a month for me to see - damn YT notifications 😂
@@LoudGuns haha no worries 👍 😉
Low expectations concerning goods and services are norm for me these days... 😏
For those unsure, I'm referring specifically to social media platform technology & policy in this one.
Too much salt maybe ? 🤣
I would imagine that components will probably go up in price once the game is released.
I remember in Elite Dangerous, you would have to spend like 50% of the value of a ship to get it fully upgraded (I haven't played ED in quite a while, maybe someone who has played more recently can correct my number).
That actually seems reasonable to me.
To me as well, I figure getting “good” might be anywhere from 1-5% - that first bump in performance. But then to get that really top of the line feel you might have to get super rare components that could be pricy and / or hard to find - I particularly liked that scene in the recent IAE Jax video of the parts shop in pyro
Love all the thought juice on this channel. With ship prices set to rocket up, I assume you won't be able to keep in-game earned ships after launch. I like the idea of some mechanics forcing a balance, keeping smaller ships viable. I am not in the verse yet but have tracked and consumed as much material as I can since SC started. Looking forward to getting into it soon
Haha "thought juice" is a phrase I'll definitely be using going forward :D
Certainly an interesting point of view and much food for thought.
I have a Polaris as my only ship, and for a couple months I've been thinking about "downgrading" to (still a large ship) something more manageable, because I have a program too hectic to reliably play with many people... Hammerhead is my ship of choice, because CIG confirmed we'll be able to blade 4 of the 6 turrets, so if I blade 2 (to keep some computer power for other tasks) and have 2 AI crew (entirely reasonable IMO), considering the pilot has control of the non negligeable 32 S3 missiles, the HH might, in the future, become one of the strongest soloable-ish ship...
The only thing I'm really not keen on losing is the hangar. I need a place to park my Glaive.
Yeah I do think the HH will be one of the few larger ships that is entirely soloable because of its form. That said - as in your hangar example - you do lose quite a bit of versatility.
Just a bit of advice on the grouping / schedule. Maybe just consider looking at an org on the slightly larger end of things. If you’re in a small group it can matter more if someone is around or not, whereas bigger orgs can be a great place for someone with a more hectic schedule. You can drop in and out a bit easier and most of the time you are free to play someone will be there to hang out with.
@@LoudGuns Yes, I'm in a fairly large org already. but I also think having a capital ship, even a small capital as a Polaris, as my only ship beside the fighter, isn't a wise choice... I still haven't melted the Polaris, John Crewe promised 2 months ago a video dedicated to the Polaris, so I wait to see it (if it ever comes) to be sure not to have regrets!
@@captainharlock3998 at the end of the day there’s no harm in waiting right. So much can change with concepts. I weirdly feel this way about my BMM - despite how cool the design looks it’s far more ship than I intended and I don’t know that I want to be a full time merchant.
@@LoudGuns I completely get that. my Polaris was a BMM before. But I ccu-d it when it grew to 240m. it was... just too large for me, even with a crew (plus, the large guns were interesting when it was sub 200m, but not enough for a 240m ship, imo. I'm a pirate, and I just know a single retaliator will be a bad day for the BMM : too much ship for too few turrets...). but the Banu have downright the best ship aesthetics in game, so... I get why it's hard to decide...
@@captainharlock3998 I also feel the same, that's why I pledged the Perseus and Carrack. Both can be crewed with the same # of players 4 - 6 Possibly less with a blade/NPC in safer regions. I have often wondered if BMM's will be robbed like banks ? The BMM IMO is more luxurious than the 890J .
Its something ive always had to bring up when talking to PMCs. Its great that you gouys have x number of Polarises or javelins but you dont even have the active people to crew one let along meet its logi needs. To that affect any time someone internal to my org has been eyeing one off ive always asked two questions
Do we have the numbers of regularly active people to crew it? and how would we support it? Wtih that in mind we have always aimed to limit ourselves to ships we can sustainably fully crew and support and in some cases over crew see a 4 man MSR witht he 4th acting as WSO.
Yeah there’s a lot of detail still to be seen, don’t get me wrong I do see the positive side to caps, but I felt they’d already had enough discussion 😂
@@LoudGuns It does feel Ike there's a lot of focus on what they can do and not a lot on what they might need to function eg logistics.
I'll also profess a love for small groups of ships aka what we call a mosquito fleet. Eg 2 fully crewed Cutties running interference or a Gladiator. You have 96 missiles on the Cutties to chew through flares ect before the glad fires it's torps
@@gyratingwolpertiger6851 yeah that’s true. I think the issue smaller ships will face in the future is just in being fairly impotent vs large and caps. Once armour is a thing I can see the size 3’s on most single seaters just not even scratching the hull of an Idris.
@@LoudGuns That I can agree with. That Being said run a distraction group of Cutties ect spamming missiles ect and then swap the Gladiator put for an eclipse or two to help punch through the shields.
Between turrets and armour it'll be good to see an end to the "light fighter" meta. The moment PTC breaks out a ship with a turret or two the odds are a lot more even than the pirates in light fighters were hoping for.
I know that my Idris is going to spend a lot of time drydocked. While I have enough friends to crew an Idris, we all have lives and responsibilities. It'll come out on some weekends when the group actually wants to play Star Citizen.
Honestly - that's an incredibly healthy view to have. As long as that's your expectation you're not going to get disappointed. Going back to the convertible analogy - to some people they can afford it and it's worth the money just for that sunny day with the top down!
I plan to park my capital ships for a grey market insurance scheme. Selling pirates my coordinates for legitimate salvage, just to turn around and LTI ∞
Haha, although if CIG are smart there will be some form of defence against this. Maybe each time you claim in succession your claim timer goes up? It's still LTI, you just go from waiting a day to a week to a month to..... and so on.
@@LoudGuns that would be a good solution. I know the claim times and fees right now are low for game crash reasons, and we will eventually be getting stock load outs, but we will find ways to have some solo fun with these behemoths one way or another. Even if my idris-k just parks on a ridge overlooking our org pioneer bases with those intimidating pdc turrets and an NPC crew… the future of this game is bright.
CIG has already said insurance fraud would be a thing and have serious consequences.
I think a 150m combat focused ship would be best, like the Perseus
Not too big so a reduce crew can operate it but not too small to be tanky enought
I dream of a ship of that size, with big battleship like turret and every room for it to be a base so bedrooms, medical section, a bit of storage, a prison (since I want to be a bounty hunter) and maybe a small fighter
In an SaltEmike interview with people who pirated, they admitted to using bots to mine the chat section for keywords to determine who had what. Hope that helps.
There's a WW2 sim currently in Beta called 'Uboat' that has a novel solution for managing AI crew; where the entire side of the ship folds away to provide an 'ant-farm' view of the interior, allowing the captain greater ease in pointing and clicking to assign tasks. Do you think that would help with managing Idris and Javelins in Star Citizen?
I get where info runners are coming from but definitely think they often gloss over the resources need to run the large ships. Current mining is a good indicator of this, you can run a mole with 1 person but it takes a lot more experience and dedication to do so. Take that to an order of magnitude greater and you are likely looking at a team of 3-4 members running at a similar skill level to get real value out of an Orion, or 6-8 more casual players. But that also comes at a much higher risk level with out additional defensive and logistical resources.
Oh I definitely agree with a lot of what they say, in this vid though I was just trying to open up a different side of the discussion and maybe deflate the hype around big ships a little bit of I can. A good thing to remember with a lot of the inforunners vids is that they’re talking to folks who have already sunk a lot of cash into the game and could probably get a better fleet by restructuring. I just want to try to get through to some people who maybe aren’t there just yet.
What good is something like the hull c when you go to buy cargo to sell, all you can normally buy is like 45 scu. What good is that for a ship that holds 4608
I don't think SC would mesh well with a constant money drain system like ED's fleet carrier upkeep.
The Fleet Carriers are permanent in the universe the moment you purchase one and you don't pilot them directly. They serve more the purpose of mobile space station.
They also physically cannot be destroyed.
With SC you'll be able to land and store your capitals, have them blown up or go long times without ever taking them for a ride. It's much more flexible and with a greater potential for loss.
For me the Kraken is the best capital ship. it has so many advantages over the Idris and the Javalin. You can use the kraken as a home base and land on surfaces! The Kraken is worth its money only for that :)
man fresh wipe and the orion and polaris are in game operational? wipe day would be the best day.
IMHO there are going to be a lot of large ship owners extremely dissapointed.
A large, under crewed ship is just going to be a target for an organized boarding party.
While I do agree with the "work down, not up" in ship purchasing. But you better have a solid ship you can run solo....and no, you are not going to run something that needs 4+ crew solo.
I am absolutely guilty of having a big ship (Merchantman bought when it was $250) and a medium big (Starfarer G), but I run with groups and org a fair amount.
I keep a 100i and a Warden around for good reason. I don't always run in a group. A fast pull, and something that can fight solo or with a buddy is absolutely a necessity.
I get a good laugh when "fix my fleet" strips players of every small ship, leaving them with a fleet of ships that will all need 4 or 5+ people to run.
Personaly i think their wont be a lot of opportunities to field capital ships other then the Polaris and that may not even be possible either
When capital ships come in I envision myself selling my time as a mercenary crew or support pilot to supplement capital ships, as overwatch, search, recovery, recon or freight support. Capital ships are not my dance for my game time.
Capital ships and their practical functionality all feels like a pipedream at the moment.
I’d be a lot more worried if the 890J didn’t exist. It’s obviously a big step, but there’s already another big step that’s clearly been done in terms of making large ships with interiors work while hurtling through space shared with other players.
The biggest issue with the capital ships is going to be crew requirements. The most recent numbers show an mean of 500 dollars per Citizen. Assuming its largely mega whales, then whales and so on, I still don't get why people would choose to sit in a Kraken turret all day, over flying their own ship and being their own captain. Oh and AI Tech is just not there yet in any game, enough for the complex systems they have laid out.
Because some people like and enjoy being the ball gunners in fights.
@@Texasmule Exactly. I always prefer having someone else fly while in a group. I enjoy manning a turret and I expect to have fun being an engineer or some other crew position in the future.
remember you can always sell your ship ingame for quick cash in the final game.
Big ships have their place but small ships have their place too.
Great content. I very seldom leave comments. But I like the way you think sir.
Thanks mate! Purely one person’s humble opinions though :D
The best part about smaller ships is that you can actually play them now. Every RAFT or 400i owner has had more fun playing their ship that's been around a few months than the jaded owner of the Endeavour who has been waiting 7 years for even a mention of its existence.
Some truth to that statement, but tbf the loaners matrix usually covers you pretty well. Just speaking as a non-jaded Endeavor owner the cutty red and starfarer are alright to have in the hangar.
Don’t forget about John crewe dropping that line about if you have one billion credits on day one the game will happily sell you a Orion
So I do wander if 1 billion uec is a likely price for capital ships
I wonder if that means they're dropping the notion of reputation as a requirement for the bigger ships or if that only applies to combat vessels.
@@RecklessFables who knows I would expect it to be for combat and ships like bmm and other factions
An orion might be buyable day one. Getting an Orion sized ore contract...that might be a problem.
I have thought for a long time that Mil ships and Mil variants will probably have a reputation gate.
Want a Freelancer? plop down your cash. Want a Freelancer Mis? That will take some rep.
A lot of people with huge fleets of capital ships will be disappointed in the reality of the final release. We are all spoiled by the current claim/insurance placeholder. As someone who owns multiple cap ships myself, I am very aware of how little these ships will be used to their practical advantage. I own them because I run an org, but even then I doubt it will be realistic to use them at every play session.
The way that you're making it sound it's kind of sound like Eve online
I think a lot of people will be finding out they bought far more fleet than they can afford to maintain, let alone crew. I expect to see much melting as backers reconfigure their fleets into more viable combinations as the game approaches its release form. A profession starter or medium multirole ship will be the sweet spot for many. I bet it will take a well-organized group to field anything bigger than a Carrack in the first week or two, with Krakens and Orions being the most common big ships at first.
I think it all depends on who you have around you more than what you have in your hangar. It's why as an OL I make it clear that we don't care what you have in your hangar, we care about people.
im beting on turret automation as solo player so basicaly my idea is 2 ships one daily driver for making money -- make cash -- automate turets on biger ship +npc if it will be thing -- then use the biger ship to do pve combat content no pvp -- automated turets should be okay to get down small escorts on bounties while as pilot you put down your main bateries on that hammerhead / other similar size alien ship -- point is take constant stream of missions which will be easy for your big ship to do widouth much effort than risking it on something hard / 50/50 chance -- its fun to see things go boom there ewen tough you basicali bulling npcs😅
partly over hyped cause the cost of running then an crewing them isn't talked on enough, just speculations and the aww of the sizes and purpose cap ships will have. im deff for cap ships though i have 3 big ships on waiting on(polaris,bmm,orion) most of the time small to medium ships makes a lot more sense most the the time unless you have a org you regularly play with to run the big ships or when ai finally comes in to help with some jobs. plus, i got them for the experience theyll bring the opportunity to give others the chance to be aboard the bigger ship without having to blow the money like i did lol. a way of making friends for me it'll be hopefully lol.
Capital ships are largely just a flex and hangar decorations for 90% of players who pick them up. The absolute largest that will be realistically used by individual players with their mates, are going to be around BMM / 890J sized, which happily function with a crew of 4-8.
The capital class ships will be org level only, so they’re really not that interesting to me.
I've finally got my dream ship the carrack , but I have to admit I fly it solo and I'll be hoping on the AI helping out in the future.
I was torn between the Carrack and 600i exp. I went 600i for now, we will see how much of a difference the rework makes. Ultimately it came down to numbers and the pilot controlled guns. I went Caterpillar for cargo and modularity. The Carrack is still one of the best ships though!
Yeah I had the 600i for a bit , but I've always wanted the Carrack . I also had the Caterpillar, I'd say that was my second favourite ship . Enjoy your 600i 👍
@@dchippie thanks, enjoy your Carrack!
With a bit of AI a carrack should be solo-able, but I think for it to come alive you'd want 2-3 other players to run with.
I'm gonna say this before the video even starts. It's what I think of big ships personally.
Big ships= Endgame.
I'll come back and edit if need be afterwards.
Edit: you're right. I'm one of those "Big ship" junkies truth be told. Something I did to my fleet not too long ago. I went down the list at every large to capital sized ship I own and I bought a smaller version of each of them.
Reclaimer/Vulture
Orion/Prospector
Hull-D/Hull-C/Freelancer MAX
Carrack/Corsair/TBD
List goes on. Basically, in the case that I'm unable to operate my larger vessels because people aren't online or aren't interested ATM, I'll always have these fall back ships to use as a solo player.
I own a large ship and hoping CIG brings up NPC crew members by the time we see Capital ships in game.. There are many things I did not consider when buying such a large ship lol
Personally I feel NPC's and AI are much needed additions, but I very much doubt that it will ever be particularly efficient to crew a big ship entirely with them. A human crew is likely to always outperform an AI one. AI should be available to take on some of the less fun roles IMO (point defence turrets that might never fire in a battle for example) but you'll still want some friends for the key roles. Joining a community or org is probably the best bet in the long run.
@@LoudGuns Uhh i am in a very large org... The Capital ships will need to feel lived in, or will seem boring.. We will need AI for the more tedious work, as well as shops in Merchantman and Kraken etc... I'm being realistic because some capital ships require a lot of crew, so 3 or 4 cap ships will be an entire servers player count, which won't be fun... That means we will need NPCs to help crew the largest vessels
I've noticed people say "Oh the Javelin required 80 crew to fully crew it" No the 80 crew capacity is whats called "Dual crew" ideology. Its two crews of 40. Its work for 12 hours off for 12 hours. So full crew is 40 crew members. I can see a Javelin being ran by a skeleton crew of 20 as long as it stays out of much heated combat.
Yeah I’d imagine at the lower end you could skeleton crew these ships but that’d be more for moving them. When it comes to fighting you’d probably want every station manned and a contingent of marines onboard in case you got boarded - wouldn’t want your guns to go silent as your gunners have to become marines.
For real money, bigger is better. But in game, you want to have progression upwards, sideways and downwards. Some ships like the Razor are great to get in game because they're very fun, but you would never spend real money for one. If it's just me online, the Carrack is a bad choice, but the 315p is appealing.
It's all very situational I'd agree. Some people for example might be in 1000 person orgs and have zero issues finding a Javelin crew every day if they've got one to use. I just think that in amongst all of the content (some of which I myself have made) hyping cap ships there should be some content saying why immediate ownership of one might not be so good.
Nauur here.
Don't have any tea available, only pasta.
Good enough?
Nothing wrong with a mug of pasta :D
I feel the bang for buck argument is, maybe not flawed, but at least formulated on the wrong assumptions.
I.e. that both bang and buck are absolute quantities. Buck, probably, is the closest of the two to an absolute quantity, but I don't think bang is.
A more precise metric I think is the logistics required for anything to do its intended job, compounded on the social bubble an individual has within their org (assuming they belong to one); yes, you may be part of an org (I hope to join FRCN soon!), but whether your Kraken or Orion or whatever pays for its bills or not depends on how many people you can reliably have logged in the game maneuvering it.
(Reliably = when maneuvering time exceeds drydock time by at least 50%. Personal estimate, I know, but it's something xD)
Which means that if you find yourself playing with the usual five or six people within the org, maybe a Carrack with snubs (or Dragonflies!) is probably more efficient for you. However, that's also compounded with the various org nights and the relative "capital ship training" the average org mate has... which all comes down to a deeply, intimately contextual answer xD
With that I wonder: would upkeep mean that pirates who can't afford it will steer away from more upkeep-heavy vessels?
Happiness = reality - expectations. Subtract the other way around and lower expectations and you'll end up with negative happiness...
rampant speculation, love it
There's nothing quite like it :D I just like to be upfront with people so they don't get 7 minutes in and then get annoyed at me in the comments!
@@LoudGuns Dunning-Kruger effect.
I do not want to crack in but I do want to Idris there's reasons why I want to Idris the medical Bay could be improved in it and the interest because if you use that in wartime it brings you back to life as if it was a cheer one ship anyways for medical so that should stay the same and for some of the major ships I'd make sure there's a t1 medical Bay and no matter what just because of what it's supposed to be for especially if you go way out into the verse and it takes you two weeks to get back to go to medical Bay.
subbed becuase i want to see a fellow Scotsman do well
Wrong time to point out I’m from Devon originally? But I believe in honesty - Scotland’s been home for 5 years though if that helps. 😂
@@LoudGuns I know that from your accent. But its not where your from its where yiu are haha 😆