The kibbe conversation is always interesting to me-I like the kibbe system and I’ve been using it since about 2016ish. It’s been extremely freeing for me and has helped me build a wardrobe I’m really content with. Its just a form/tool. And this might be generational, but I have noticed that gen z has an extremely essentialist mindset about things that inhibits them from being able to just use a tool as a tool and not make yourself in the image of the tool. You mentioned having an item that falls out of the system, but is something you love and posed it as a problem, but there isn’t really a problem is there? If you like something, wear it. It’s not that deep. People use the kibbe method because they have dissatisfaction with their attire and want to create a framework to work from, but I do see how this latest expression of kibbe influencers had made this system their whole personality. But that’s not what kibbe is in itself. One slight nitpick is you mentioned all of these systems are showing you how to be an hourglass and that’s actually not true of kibbe. What kibbe taught me was that I should let that go and just let clothing hang off my body more and not emphasize my waist, which worked with my personality and it liked how I looked more. I also hear you about body typing giving big eugenics vibes, but whiteness is literally baked into everything and even when it’s not it still worms it’s way in. If I had to wait for people to make things that weren’t racist, I’d be die with nothing to partake in. It doesn’t mean we don’t do our best, but I often think this essentialist lens gets us nowhere. At it’s best, kibbe is a tool that can be used to reduce clothing consumption and bring back joy in getting dressed, but at its worst it can be co-opted by whiteness and capitalism to reassert the values of whiteness and capitalism. How you use a tool matters.
This comment is everything! I was getting so annoyed with people dogging on the idea of color seasons since they sort of blew up online these last few months. It’s just a tool that you can use if your goal is to have your wardrobe harmonize with your coloring/undertone. That’s it. If you like a color that doesn’t suit you… just wear it, I promise the fashion police is not going to arrest you. Anyways, nothing is perfect, but not everything is the worst thing ever.
Honestly, I always disliked the apple, pear, hourglass categories ("do this to look more hourglass", ugh I hate it), but Kibbe's system has been quite helpful to me and I've used it for many years. In my opinion, not the system is the problem, but how religiously people use it (and how influencers promote it). I just loosely keep it in mind when I shop for, alter or make clothes and it's always fun to understand why certain clothes look better on me and others worse, it's just a tool.
I think they do, but there is just not a standardized way for men to understand which clothes fit best. I have notice that a lot of men worry about their body not looking like the stereotypical mens body (having larger hips, larger booty, not a broad chest, being very skinny) and having a lot of trouble shopping for clothes because very few fit well
I hate when people refer to a certain body type as “athletic”. If you watch the Olympics you’ll notice how different body types look based on sport, and they’re all athletic. Runners vs. Gymnasts vs. Heavy lifters, are all athletic and on average have vastly different body types.
Having an athletic body means you have zero body fat. Sure you can have different types of athletic bodies but thats besides the point because ultimately they all share the same "dry" and toned look. You can sing country, someone else will sing pop and so on - bottom line is you are all singers. Just because you fall into some category doesnt automatically mean you are exactly the same.
No, have you seen olympic throwers, esp hammers? They don't have 0% bosy fat by any means lol Also, in some martial arts being too light is such a disadvantage!
i love the kibbe system. I was dressing about 70% to my kibbe type anyway, but its actually helped me to develop more of a personal style and skip the trends that don't work for me. Right now we're in a big oversized, slouchy, neutrals phase of fashion and most of these styles don't work on me. its been reassuring to have something like a kibbee type to help me navigate trends, feel stylish without buying into trends. i don't think kibbee is trying to get everyone to look the same or hourglass. its the only system that tells petite people not to bother trying to look tall.
I definitely have the type of brain that doesn’t feel limited by labels and categories… I thrive with systems like birth charts, MBTI and yes Kibbe. Because they don’t tell me how to feel about myself. I already feel it so strongly. They just offer me the language and structure to describe and work with thoughts I’ve always had about myself. I don’t internalize every aspect of Kibbe, but it truly was life changing to stop comparing myself to people with completely different skeletal structure! Mirrors are very useful. Systems like that also help me accept other people. There’s so many ways to be.
I saw someone say that kibbe is just another way to control women and I completely disagree. I find typing systems helpful, and I think that if it doesn’t work for some women they don’t have to use it. It definitely won’t fit every person the planet but people should really learn that they can take what they need from something without it being entirely bad for society. I don’t know if I understood her wrong but she said that kibbe also pushes women to dress like hourglass shape and I feel like a lot of people completely miss the point.
Not in complete defense of Kibbe, but something I gained from the methodology of Kibbe is that we are not all the same - and it's ok to feel like you don't 'pull off' certain pieces. Through my early 20's I really wanted a sort of 'old money' look - timeless, neutral, classics (definitely found lucy's channel around this time, during the capsule wardrobe phase :p). In learning more about myself, both my personality and style I find myself leaning in to a more modern, masculine, and laid back style - basically by accepting that I can be beautiful while honoring my inner tomboy, without comparing myself to the more 'put together' women I admire.
Kibbe was all about embracing your natural unique shape and make clothes work for you not the other way round, who cares about trends, there's no ideal. It's a tool you can take or leave, and for me personally, it massively changed the way I saw my body for the better. I grew up buying clothes that fit me rather than having any style of my own. Had i known i was a soft dramatic, i wouldn't have kept trying to force myself to wear certain trends or squeeze myself into certain cuts. Now i shop way less, i don't concern myself with trends, i am way more conscious about what in my shopping basket is going to end up in the back of my wardrobe because it doesn't serve my body. I've gotta say as someone who either has an hourglass figure or close to it, it's hard to shop for and i wouldn't say it was glamorised in the UK at least and not in real life!
I also have quite an hourglass figure (from the front lol, I have no bum) and have always found most clothes look awful on me - I believe that's because a lot of clothes are shaped to make someone less hourglass look more hourglass. I'm also from the UK and the hourglass figure has absolutely always been celebrated, so long as you're also thin.
Thank you for mentioning that disabilities aren't taken into account with these body type things. I'm a curvy/plus size person and even plus size clothes dont fit me the same as they do on abled people because I'm in a wheelchair and things sit differently on me. I learned to just wear what was comfortable and easy to get on and off with my abilities.
I had no idea personality traits were claimed to be linked to body type (although I'm aware we have subconscious associations). That's ridiculous, completely unscientific and very limiting and unhelpful
For me, as a teen when the thigh gap was really popular in 2015/2016 knowing my body type really helped me with my own body acceptance and neutrality. I knew that because I am a ‘pear’ shape, it meant that I would always have bigger thighs and they’d always be my largest part of my body regardless how much weight I lost or gained. And I only can speak for myself but that was liberating to know! I’m aware how fortunate that i am that i’ve never struggled with how I perceive my body nor as well as meeting or closely meeting to western beauty ideals to some degree despite being slightly bigger! I never consider this specifically as a privilege (as being able-bodied and white) and how this mechanism that helped me was ultimately designed for people like me.
I honestly don't know what to think other than, how ridiculous this 'theory' gained any traction whatsoever. Body types!? Purleeeease. Wear whatever the fuck you like. All these video essays are hilarious when you realise just how seriously women take 'fashion' and 'microtrends' - can you all hear yourselves!? Take a step back, take a breath and remember, they're just fucking clothes lol. x
Please know that the Kibbe image id system do NOT conform your body to the hourglass figure - it takes your individual silhuette and enhances it - that is the genius thing.
also, when does styling finally stop being mostly about enhancing certain features and hiding others in order to look "your best" according to some norm or category? when can it actually be about creativity and expression and comfortability and so on?
Yes! I watched ‘beepworld’ talk about something similar on her channel. Essentially she said we already know what suits us - it’s the things that make us feel happy, feel joy. It’s externalising approval but who are we trying to appease? I think it’s important we talk about this, especially now. In a world that is in frantic flux it’s so tempting to try and grab on to order - it’s so hard to be un-influenced and self-aware.
sartorial capitalism is an apt turn of phrase. Id add that typing rests not only on a longing to make our sense of self stable, typing makes our ability to compete and succeed jn a highly unstable labor market. It's fun to participate in typing but functionally typing serves to sell our labor power.
When talking about all these systems, people often forget that you can go against them on purpose to create a different kind of effect, in most cases an edgy/alternative look. Like, the color black is said to actually be unflattering to a lot of people and that is why it looks edgy on a lot of people. Also, like, there's no a Kibbe policeman standing behind you at all times, making sure you're using the system as Kibbe intended - we can pick and choose bits that are helpful and discard the rest. For example, Kibbe system does the opposite of trying to make one look like an hour-glass, which is why I like it a lot. I spent a lot of years trying to create waist emphasis and wondering why that didn't feel right. Then I looked into Kibbe and characterized myself as a flamboyant natural. Waist emphasis is actually not recommended for this body type which has width and long vertical line. What is recommended is accommodating the width I have in my shoulders with looser fit and this was an amazing revelation because it explains why tailored jackets and button-ups just look off on me; and it allowed me to stop trying to fit myself into them. It's not that deep but it's been very helpful.
Thank you so much for sharing these thoughts Lucy! I’ve been enjoying watching Kibbe content while holding it lightly. Meaning, I use Kibbe to create a look rather than try to achieve a body “type” or balance in my frame. I also appreciate how it allows me to understand objectively why some things (like trench coats for example) look strange on me - it’s the coat, not my body!
I feel you with criticising Kibbe. I went through it as well and felt so reduced, negatively effected and not even empowered to help myself find anything. Thankfully there are systems that focus and your gain, not the inventors/ sellers. Maybe check out the style key system by Rita. It’s a system that aims for your enjoyment, happiness and empowerment, men and women, and not for having a man tell you what’s pretty on you.
If you also consider your own style and preferences while using the Kibbe method it can be somewhat helpful. I have tall, relatively skinny and angular body type. I like how it's telling me to not lean towords very romantic floral and frilly clothes, as I have never liked them anyway. Those clothes look amaaazing on curvy bodies, or with more soft features. But that's about it what I took from it.
As person with curvier/thicker hourglass figure I always find it suprising when I hear that it’s the model shape becouse it’s almost imposible to find clothes other than dresses that fit my body, mostly pants 😅
Kibbe does not encourage people to go to anyone other than himself for a Kibbe analysis. He would tell you there is no such thing as a 'Kibbe specialist'. He has not trained anyone, but there are certainly self-styled Kibbe interpreters around. Great video!
I still remember being a kid and filling out those “what body type are you” forms in seventeen magazine and hoping I would get hourglass. Such a wonderful breakdown video Lucy ❤️
I love these videos that you do! It's really not spoken enough about how your body changes as you get older. I'm 33 and still trying to come to terms with my changing body, especially like you say when body types are thrown into the mix. THEN sometimes I look at my body and think....what body type am I?!?
There were a few things that I think you got wrong on Kibbe: his system is not about achieving an hourglass, it’s about honoring your own shape. It does talk about weight and age - it basically doesn’t matter bc your ting yang balance is the same regardless of those factors. He doesn’t say you can’t type yourself, he says typing yourself is a journey because it’s hard to look at ourselves objectively. And it takes a while to do so. He also says if you wanted to get typed by a professional, he’s the only one that can do it, lol. Also, he says himself his system isn’t a body typing system, it’s an essence system. What vibe do you give off? That’s why a lot of the stuff he talks about is personality related. Btw, I don’t agree with Kibbe, I just don’t like it when things are poorly researched.
Honestly, I use kibbe but I don’t like that every criticism video I see of it is the same. Sure there’s no way it would fit everyone on the planet but at least look beyond surface level of the community. In his book he basically describes the types as more of personalities.
I borrowed that Kibbe book from my public library and it was just so weird. Too many things to analyze in an impossible way about my body like sloped and rounded OR sloped and tapered OR symmetrical and even OR broad and blunt OR sharp and narrow AND that is just looking at your shoulders! The before and after photos were super strange too. I returned the book after a day. NO thanks.
You don’t have to learn how to look your best by this method, or this method alone. But I think it actually celebrates all kinds of beauty. Not sure you really did a good amount of research into it, as I didn’t feel it I’d about telling us all to be the hourglass. I’ve found s lot of solace in understanding how my body can be emphasised and mirrored by my style.
My biggest problem with the Kibbe system is that it's so arbitrary and ambiguous as to be meaningless. Even the Kibbe acolytes often can't agree on the category a certain (famous) woman fits into. And Kibbe himself seems like a man who is literally just making it up as he goes along. And anyway, it's still literally doing the same thing as the "basic shape system," just with different (and more confusing) words.
Mr.Kibbe missed out on creating his signature program 1. he can get compensated for his contribution and 2. others will implement it easily and consistently. I’ll show you how to package your unique brilliance and pass it to others. Mr. Kibbe if you’re still on planet earth- contact me. ASAP.
To be honest, I couldn't finish watching your video because you were taking Kibbe system way out of context. I discovered this system about five months ago and it really has helped me understand why certain styles, fabrics and trends don't work for my body type. According to this system I'm in the Gamine category, Soft Gamine (5'2"). After finally understanding my body build, now I realized why most clothes at stores don't suit me. Because Gamines are petite and lots of clothing trends are not suited for petite and short women. One thing I'm critical about the system is the labeling. Words like dramatic, flamboyant and romantic are quite outdated. The French word Gamine has its roots in not so flattering connotations. But there are young stylists who are deviating from those labels and using a wider range of words that can be simpler and more fitting for the current fashion trends. All in all is just a tool and tools are meant to build something with them. Not an end on their own.
THIS!!!!! Personally I find personality typing (without connection to bodytyping!!) fun while knowing they're varying degrees of bullshit, but bodytyping just gives me the biggest ick no matter what the intention (and I say that as someone who's never had any real issues with her body (being a pear I guess lol) - but then again maybe that means I just can't relate enough). Anyways hate bodytyping thanks for saying smart things about why I'm right :D
THANK YOU! Geez, I think I kind of got slightly interested in kibbe to see if I could feel a bit better about my body (I guess somewhat body dismorphic sometimes) but I can't figure out what my "type" was supposed to be and then there's a flipping "height" limit as well and it just makes zero sense. Also fashion wise, different silhouettes are trendy at different times and I fundamentally dislike this idea that all your clothes have to "look flattering", that just kind of makes it boring! I do agree, I think people are trying to get a baseline of things so they have some sense of what to do since everything "trendy" is changing so fast..
Face readying which I just learned about is also based on this similar problematic take! We should question why theses body imaging methods are really starting to trend lately.? It’s quite concerning.
Perhaps worth a note that in reviewing “art” that goes as far back to the Antiquities that ideas of ‘nudity’, the (naked) ‘body’, the female/male body don’t necessarily carry the cultural contexts and cues the contemporary gaze levels upon these images and objects. IMO it’s ok to (re)frame or recontextualise as a manner of remixing culture so to speak but I would urge and suggest for us to adopt an approach of intellectual honesty to ensure our audiences are clearly aware of these conceptual workings. To honour the people we have the exacting privilege to speak to here in this time and space
when i was struggling really badly with body and eating issues, thats when i found out there was such a thing as body types. knowing my body type gave me kind of relief(?) idk how to describe it. it did help understand that theres more types than just hourglass. that said, it is absolutely disgusting how women are told how to dress based on their shapes. like you said, bodies change!!!! everyone forgets this. 100% agreed. it does make you more aware of things you never noticed before which imo and experience is so negative.
I know right, like obviously women really needed his help because we can't do anything without a man saying it's correct - we're not qualified to categorise our own bodies, or dress ourselves lol ew! (s)
Loved this! I was just about to comment about how this body typing system reminded me of the Myers-Briggs personality types, and then that was the very next part of the video 😁 I think you're so right about these systems filling that desire to feel understood and to have some kind of external, seemingly objective limits to work within. That was the appeal of both the capsule wardrobe and the MBTI for me, but then eventually they both just started to feel predetermined, preventing me from developing in my style/personality.
I strongly disagree with everything you say in this video. These systems have helped me a lot. I think Kibbe or the yin and yang system and the Kitchener essences are an important and drmocratic countrtpart to the fadhion system and the capitalistic beauty buisiness. They offer a possibility to find vloting that are nade for different body types. Criticize the fadhion industry that make clothes for tall, large boned women! Should all the rest of us just sit there and passively accept whst they command? It’s much better to use systems that applaude all shapes snd I think Kibbe does! We do have a body and we want to look our best. That’s just the way it is. If you’re not into it go do something else. It could be a good idea to go to someone who is a bit trained in it is very difficult to analize yourself. I think this is a democratic, hood and fun system. Style is meant to be fun. And for me it has been empowering and bery positive. It isn’t a perfect system but much much better than what the fashin industry will ever offer «normal» women!
Super interesting as always! 💖 i would also argue that this desire to create categories for your body/personality also feels linked to the commodifying of individuals, to becime marketable and build a brand online that people can easily relate to! (Like oh this influencer is an pear shape, me too, etc etc)
I follow one Kibbe tiktoker but thankfully she isnt totally wed to the concept, and other viewers have challenged her to use examples of people who are not white, which she has done. However, other diversities are really underrepresented and it sucks.
I found your perspective in this video very helpful, but the comments were fascinating. For a number of reasons, over the last few years, I’d lost my sense of self-expression through clothing. And, literally, some of my sense of Self. Exploring online ideas like Kibbe, Kitchener, and color analysis were helpful tools and toys as I thrift-shopped my way back to a fun and genuine closet. But the methods have rigidly defined rules, and as I was finding myself again, I had to be aware of not allowing them to define ME. I was grateful to find your video among the intensely earnest advocates of these methods. The comments here are an interesting mix of those who have no use for body typing, those that use it casually as a tool, and quite many of those who appear rather miffed at anything they feel that you erred on. I was struck by how little exchange of ideas there is in this comment section- each person individually commenting, but nearly no one commenting to respond to someone else. Less than I typically see. Why? I suspect that you struck a nerve. Whether we like to admit it or not, it’s human nature to want to belong, to be part of a larger group. It feels secure. We use it to help define who we are, for better or worse. We can over-embrace group values at the cost of our own sense of individual identity. You’ve challenged that fashion and body type group values, when embraced, can influence us more than we might like to imagine. You drew a line in the sand. And commenters, perhaps, arranged themselves along that line. Thank you for talking about this!
Gosh, these essays are so good and informative everytime. Thanks, for the insight and for being brave enough to bring the eugenics background into this.
I noticed a long time ago that I didn't seem to be able to fit into any of the major body types (apple, pear, hourglass, etc). I would look at examples and explanations, but compared to my body, they would seem contradictory. Am I still a pear if I have broad shoulders? Am I an hourglass if I have a big belly? Am I an apple if my chest is small? etc. It felt like all of that wasn't made for me, and turns out, that's exactly the case. So many things in fashion, trends and aesthetics actively exclude plus size bodies, as they work to focus on the shape/silhouette instead of the clothes. And that is so, so hard to unlearn (especially when its reinforced everywhere you look), and I struggle with it every day, feeling like this whole world of beauty just doesn't care to include me in it, because I'm shaped wrong in ways that I cannot change (especially not at the pace of trends these days). I just now looked through a kibbe body type test, and sure enough, none of the examples were plus size bodies, or even showed any "extremes" (they have a section on noses, and all of them look identical to me). I wouldn't even consider any of the examples shown as "average". Oh, and almost all the examples are white, too, which obviously is a can of worms in itself. I wish so much of fashion wasn't just skinny culture.
Honestly, I know people will just say 'you're just not good at determining your Kibbe body type', but the only thing it did was make me feel like/strengthen my thoughts that my body looks weird as I didn't really fit in any one of the categories - then they start adding 'mountain' etc for style... I'm just done being told how I 'should' dress, by a man as well lol.
I have such a mixed relationship with the Kibbe types! On the one hand, they helped me embrace the features I have that aren't "trending" and encouraged me to think about dressing for me, style over trends, and helped me think more about the longevity of future purchases. And I never found it that difficult to disregard the guidance that didn't resonate with me. But, once I got pregnant... it all went out the window. I could no longer dress for my "rules" and felt adrift again. Will I feel the same post partum?! Who knows!
Ok but a quick note, corsets don't change your body (or are not suppsoed to with standard usage), they just change your figure and proportions of your outfit. But it's not shapewear or plastic surgery
The answer to Kibbe method is already part of the classical styling method, at least in my view and my styling approach. So called "hourglass ideal" is merely a point of reference which is needed when it comes to styling. Why is it needed? Not because we try to achieve that a woman looks different than she actually does. What we, however, do try to achieve is a rather neutral look (yes, with a reference to hourglass, but there are no strict rules to follow, that is why one hires a stylist in the first place), in which women feel comfortable, and NOT some kind of sexy male gaze look. But why style (according to body type) at all? Especially when we know that women's bodies are seen as objects in this society. We do not, unfortunately, become any less objects when we stop dressing according to the womanly stereotype (I hope we can agree on that), and ironically (or not?) classical approach to style has gone the farthest when it comes to seeing women as subjects, all by trying to achieve a neutral look (still feminine, up to some point). Further discussions are very much needed here. As you said, it is a whole philosophy (while Kibbe's ideas are just simplifications and do include a sexist position, in my opinion).
I must say, the kibbe system helped me a lot letting go the idea of looking a certain way depending on beauty trends. I then saw women that had so much in common with my body, so I could stop judging myself under the male gaze. I didn't understand the argument of thinnes because kibbe is not depending on weight. My best friend is plus size and she felt empowered due to understanding her uniqness and own beauty in her body shape after finding her kibbe-type. Anyway I think the discussion is still important, love your videos!
The hourglass ideal hasn't been a universal! Traditional Japanese beauty used to emphasize a slim columnar look, even padding out women's waists under kimono in order to achieve it.
I personally feel Kibbe can be more useful to any female or gender non-conforming person who wants to lean into more of their natural masculinity. Its personally allowed me to notice the more masculine attributes I have where growing up it was all about noticing the feminine traits. I'm now able to dress in a more adrogynous way that doesn't look in conflict with me, it looks harmonious.
This was a super interesting video. I legit wish there were more clothing options for those of us who are incredibly tall and wear items marketed towards women. We don't have much to choose from sadly.
In addition to being very Euro-centric, most of the Kibbe body types seemed to be geared towards shorter women. So, as a relatively tall woman (5'9) with a smaller frame, I also found accurate categorization with the Kibbe body type test elusive. This is just to say that it may exclude quite a few women and is just generally hogwash.
This is such an interesting breakdown of body typing! It reminds me of Abby Cox's recent video about "face reading" (aka phrenology) and how it's rooted in colonisation and oppression! Although I totally agree with you that with fashion there's this struggle between self expression and the ever accelerating trend cycle which is such a difficult tightrope to walk. Has my style actually changed or is it just the trend cycle? Did skinny jeans ever look good on me or was that just the trend cycle?
Brilliant video! I remember watching the Buzzfeed video of ideal bodies through the ages when I was 14 and trying to figure out which one I was... even though I was literally a child
apple and pear are only 'recent' inventions from the late 20th century. I think hourglass is 50s (or earlier). Various different fashionable body silhouettes for men and especially women have trended with fashion and across geographies and social groups throughout history.
Thank you for addressing the pseudoscientific way Kibbe body types are regarded. As someone who got listened to a lot of body type content recently, you hit the nail on the head. Really hope you don't get too much hate for this video.
Lucy I am LOVING this content, I love that you're filming a range of all the things you're great at and interested in, I love every single video you're making these days! I hope the youtube algorithm never pressures you to find a restrictive box to fit in, the more you do what you love the more I love your content! ❤❤ I for one am not going anywhere as a viewer 😘
YESSS!! What a great video, Lucy!! Love the editing style and sociology dialogues. I'd be so into a video about micro-trends & the increasing pace of trend cycling!!
i never noticed but oh my god youre right! im now thinking about all netflix shows ive been watching recently and basing personality with body shapes is so disappointingly common
Ahhhh I can't say how happy I am to see this video. It's been driving me up the wall, that it feels like literally every influencer has to do this or color theory or MBTI or even astrology. I'm not against it because it's "a girl thing and girl things are devalued" but because of the roots of all that stuff in eugenics, in social control, in the idea of predetermination based on birth, in fancy phrenology. Also frustrating when people say hating on astrology is racist because astrology is used in other cultures - as someone from one of those cultures, I'm very glad when astrology is removed from decision making. Anyways have to stop before I go on too much of a rant but this video is very refreshing and I hope you don't get negative comments from the people who ascribe to those beliefs.
I think when something like astrology is so easily provably wrong, it's fine to say what you think - if one culture thought the Earth was flat, should we start humouring them? That would be like saying witch doctors are real doctors... I also really resent that pseudoscience is labelled a girl thing, that feels demeaning to me on it's own.
First of all, I beg to differ ideal is to be model looking, tall and super skinny, not a hourglass, very few clothes is made that actually fit hourglasses correctly (hip to thigh ratio, boxy shirts ect). Hourglass maybe used to be desired and still is through male gaze but in reality really isn't. Look, I am well aware how problematic Kibbie body typing is, I'm not denying that. However it helped me so much to accept myself, how I look and to finally find my confidence. I went through my teenage years during late 2000s early 2010s when only one body type was "popular" and that did damage on me, cause obviously I wasn't that. Nothing fitted right so I'd exit stores feeling even worse about myself. Return of 2000s fashion actually triggered me last year and I cried for three days cause I wasn't able to find anything that fits me for my graduation celebration cause guess what, it's not "fashionable" to have curves anymore. Kibbie and the examples actually helped me access why only few things worked on me and why I was feeling bad. So when I started dressing according to my body type I could finally see that my body wasn't an issue. I'm slowly changing over my wardrobe, mostly waiting for things to breake so I can replace it second hand and I'm still wearing clothes that are not really for my type but I love. I just pair it with something that fits. It's first body type where I felt like you really DON'T chase hourglass shape, it just celebrates what you look best in. Or at least that's how I interpreted it with people I watch since I don't follow Kibbie himself. Also, body type is not a law that you must follow, it's a tool and you make the rules how or even if you'll follow. The goal is for you to feel better, and if helps great and if it doesn't do what does. Also to add something to what you said about body changing, essentials that helps you get typed according to Kibbie doesn't really change, your bones stay the same, and your height will be more or less consistent after certain point. Again, does Kibbie deserves valid criticism yes, for example when he waited till Adele lost weight to type her or how majority of examples are skinny and yt and more things mentioned in this video but If you deverge from him and his narrow point of view and find people who are expanding on his idea, body typing can be really helpful
I would love to see some links to the studies you mention, especially about how people link personality type to appearance. For example, you said that "we consider the most telling trait of a woman her hip to waist ratio" - is this based on a statistic or just anecdotally? You point out that lots of these body typing systems are pseudoscience (so not based on research), so I think it's important that you include references to published research to back up your points. Sorry to be critical, I mean it as constructive criticism!
Of course! Here’s the study I referenced showing participants linking personality traits to body types: journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797618799300?journalCode=pssa And here’s another I used to write this video: journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0956797612446349?icid=int.sj-abstract.similar-articles.1 And another: journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0956797610388048 Hope this clarifies things!
This is OD. I clicked to learn something new since I been reading Kibbe and Kitchener and other systems but instead a lecture on whiteness. As someone that doesn’t fit the standards extremely well because I’m very muscular petite and curvy. I do know that if I lost some weight the Kibbe types are somewhat accurate because they account for thinness. Nobody is born fat. No body. As someone who grew up around every ethnicity I seen most kids and young adults (myself included) with six packs or flat tummy. Not everyone belly button is knuckles deep.
I preface this by saying I don't know much about this topic at all, but I am not sure I follow the train of lack of diversity and inclusion in the framework here. I believe from a graphic point of view, showing different skin colours/ethnicities, age etc when you're trying to focus your audience on the more minute differences between a body and another in terms of proportions would be a bit counter productive. People would focus on the "biggest difference" they see in the models and interpret the disability /ethnicity represented in the model as a type in itself instead of being someone representing one specific body type. I believe it makes sense to have a frame of reference where the models are similar to one another but embody the difference the author is trying to highlight. Do I think there should be one set for each ethnicity/disability/age etc? Probably. Do I think at the time the model was skewed by racism, probably. Do we need more representation? Yes. But from a practical stand point, working off a standard makes sense to instruct people on what they are trying to learn. (This doesn't mean the standard should be white, but alas I'm assuming Kibbe is white so obviously they "teach close to home" as it's easier to talk about something you're part of).
I really think you should try again and see a kibbe consultant. It's a system that was made so you can embrace your natural lines and wear clothes that are in more harmony with your body so your natural features can shine. You were skeptical about color analysis but found it pleasant, why not kibbe analysis?
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The kibbe conversation is always interesting to me-I like the kibbe system and I’ve been using it since about 2016ish. It’s been extremely freeing for me and has helped me build a wardrobe I’m really content with. Its just a form/tool. And this might be generational, but I have noticed that gen z has an extremely essentialist mindset about things that inhibits them from being able to just use a tool as a tool and not make yourself in the image of the tool. You mentioned having an item that falls out of the system, but is something you love and posed it as a problem, but there isn’t really a problem is there? If you like something, wear it. It’s not that deep. People use the kibbe method because they have dissatisfaction with their attire and want to create a framework to work from, but I do see how this latest expression of kibbe influencers had made this system their whole personality. But that’s not what kibbe is in itself.
One slight nitpick is you mentioned all of these systems are showing you how to be an hourglass and that’s actually not true of kibbe. What kibbe taught me was that I should let that go and just let clothing hang off my body more and not emphasize my waist, which worked with my personality and it liked how I looked more. I also hear you about body typing giving big eugenics vibes, but whiteness is literally baked into everything and even when it’s not it still worms it’s way in. If I had to wait for people to make things that weren’t racist, I’d be die with nothing to partake in. It doesn’t mean we don’t do our best, but I often think this essentialist lens gets us nowhere. At it’s best, kibbe is a tool that can be used to reduce clothing consumption and bring back joy in getting dressed, but at its worst it can be co-opted by whiteness and capitalism to reassert the values of whiteness and capitalism. How you use a tool matters.
I love everything you said here, really opened my mind to another perspective!
This comment is everything! I was getting so annoyed with people dogging on the idea of color seasons since they sort of blew up online these last few months. It’s just a tool that you can use if your goal is to have your wardrobe harmonize with your coloring/undertone. That’s it. If you like a color that doesn’t suit you… just wear it, I promise the fashion police is not going to arrest you. Anyways, nothing is perfect, but not everything is the worst thing ever.
Honestly, I always disliked the apple, pear, hourglass categories ("do this to look more hourglass", ugh I hate it), but Kibbe's system has been quite helpful to me and I've used it for many years. In my opinion, not the system is the problem, but how religiously people use it (and how influencers promote it). I just loosely keep it in mind when I shop for, alter or make clothes and it's always fun to understand why certain clothes look better on me and others worse, it's just a tool.
I want to know why men don’t have these body shape/body types guidelines
This honestly.
Possibly due to men’s fashion is very uniform. While women’s fashion is meant to be empowering. Great point though
They care less about fashion and how to dress anyway
I think they do, but there is just not a standardized way for men to understand which clothes fit best. I have notice that a lot of men worry about their body not looking like the stereotypical mens body (having larger hips, larger booty, not a broad chest, being very skinny) and having a lot of trouble shopping for clothes because very few fit well
*SEXISM*
I hate when people refer to a certain body type as “athletic”. If you watch the Olympics you’ll notice how different body types look based on sport, and they’re all athletic. Runners vs. Gymnasts vs. Heavy lifters, are all athletic and on average have vastly different body types.
Having an athletic body means you have zero body fat.
Sure you can have different types of athletic bodies but thats besides the point because ultimately they all share the same "dry" and toned look.
You can sing country, someone else will sing pop and so on - bottom line is you are all singers.
Just because you fall into some category doesnt automatically mean you are exactly the same.
No, have you seen olympic throwers, esp hammers? They don't have 0% bosy fat by any means lol
Also, in some martial arts being too light is such a disadvantage!
i love the kibbe system. I was dressing about 70% to my kibbe type anyway, but its actually helped me to develop more of a personal style and skip the trends that don't work for me. Right now we're in a big oversized, slouchy, neutrals phase of fashion and most of these styles don't work on me. its been reassuring to have something like a kibbee type to help me navigate trends, feel stylish without buying into trends. i don't think kibbee is trying to get everyone to look the same or hourglass. its the only system that tells petite people not to bother trying to look tall.
Agree 100%. As a petite person Kibbe system is the only one that has helped me build a personal wardrobe that helps me celebrate my body as it is.
I definitely have the type of brain that doesn’t feel limited by labels and categories… I thrive with systems like birth charts, MBTI and yes Kibbe. Because they don’t tell me how to feel about myself. I already feel it so strongly. They just offer me the language and structure to describe and work with thoughts I’ve always had about myself. I don’t internalize every aspect of Kibbe, but it truly was life changing to stop comparing myself to people with completely different skeletal structure! Mirrors are very useful. Systems like that also help me accept other people. There’s so many ways to be.
I saw someone say that kibbe is just another way to control women and I completely disagree. I find typing systems helpful, and I think that if it doesn’t work for some women they don’t have to use it. It definitely won’t fit every person the planet but people should really learn that they can take what they need from something without it being entirely bad for society. I don’t know if I understood her wrong but she said that kibbe also pushes women to dress like hourglass shape and I feel like a lot of people completely miss the point.
Not in complete defense of Kibbe, but something I gained from the methodology of Kibbe is that we are not all the same - and it's ok to feel like you don't 'pull off' certain pieces. Through my early 20's I really wanted a sort of 'old money' look - timeless, neutral, classics (definitely found lucy's channel around this time, during the capsule wardrobe phase :p). In learning more about myself, both my personality and style I find myself leaning in to a more modern, masculine, and laid back style - basically by accepting that I can be beautiful while honoring my inner tomboy, without comparing myself to the more 'put together' women I admire.
Kibbe was all about embracing your natural unique shape and make clothes work for you not the other way round, who cares about trends, there's no ideal. It's a tool you can take or leave, and for me personally, it massively changed the way I saw my body for the better. I grew up buying clothes that fit me rather than having any style of my own. Had i known i was a soft dramatic, i wouldn't have kept trying to force myself to wear certain trends or squeeze myself into certain cuts. Now i shop way less, i don't concern myself with trends, i am way more conscious about what in my shopping basket is going to end up in the back of my wardrobe because it doesn't serve my body.
I've gotta say as someone who either has an hourglass figure or close to it, it's hard to shop for and i wouldn't say it was glamorised in the UK at least and not in real life!
I also have quite an hourglass figure (from the front lol, I have no bum) and have always found most clothes look awful on me - I believe that's because a lot of clothes are shaped to make someone less hourglass look more hourglass. I'm also from the UK and the hourglass figure has absolutely always been celebrated, so long as you're also thin.
Thank you for mentioning that disabilities aren't taken into account with these body type things. I'm a curvy/plus size person and even plus size clothes dont fit me the same as they do on abled people because I'm in a wheelchair and things sit differently on me. I learned to just wear what was comfortable and easy to get on and off with my abilities.
I had no idea personality traits were claimed to be linked to body type (although I'm aware we have subconscious associations).
That's ridiculous, completely unscientific and very limiting and unhelpful
For me, as a teen when the thigh gap was really popular in 2015/2016 knowing my body type really helped me with my own body acceptance and neutrality. I knew that because I am a ‘pear’ shape, it meant that I would always have bigger thighs and they’d always be my largest part of my body regardless how much weight I lost or gained. And I only can speak for myself but that was liberating to know! I’m aware how fortunate that i am that i’ve never struggled with how I perceive my body nor as well as meeting or closely meeting to western beauty ideals to some degree despite being slightly bigger! I never consider this specifically as a privilege (as being able-bodied and white) and how this mechanism that helped me was ultimately designed for people like me.
I honestly don't know what to think other than, how ridiculous this 'theory' gained any traction whatsoever. Body types!? Purleeeease. Wear whatever the fuck you like. All these video essays are hilarious when you realise just how seriously women take 'fashion' and 'microtrends' - can you all hear yourselves!? Take a step back, take a breath and remember, they're just fucking clothes lol. x
PREACH
Please know that the Kibbe image id system do NOT conform your body to the hourglass figure - it takes your individual silhuette and enhances it - that is the genius thing.
also, when does styling finally stop being mostly about enhancing certain features and hiding others in order to look "your best" according to some norm or category? when can it actually be about creativity and expression and comfortability and so on?
Yes! I watched ‘beepworld’ talk about something similar on her channel. Essentially she said we already know what suits us - it’s the things that make us feel happy, feel joy. It’s externalising approval but who are we trying to appease? I think it’s important we talk about this, especially now. In a world that is in frantic flux it’s so tempting to try and grab on to order - it’s so hard to be un-influenced and self-aware.
sartorial capitalism is an apt turn of phrase. Id add that typing rests not only on a longing to make our sense of self stable, typing makes our ability to compete and succeed jn a highly unstable labor market. It's fun to participate in typing but functionally typing serves to sell our labor power.
When talking about all these systems, people often forget that you can go against them on purpose to create a different kind of effect, in most cases an edgy/alternative look. Like, the color black is said to actually be unflattering to a lot of people and that is why it looks edgy on a lot of people. Also, like, there's no a Kibbe policeman standing behind you at all times, making sure you're using the system as Kibbe intended - we can pick and choose bits that are helpful and discard the rest. For example, Kibbe system does the opposite of trying to make one look like an hour-glass, which is why I like it a lot. I spent a lot of years trying to create waist emphasis and wondering why that didn't feel right. Then I looked into Kibbe and characterized myself as a flamboyant natural. Waist emphasis is actually not recommended for this body type which has width and long vertical line. What is recommended is accommodating the width I have in my shoulders with looser fit and this was an amazing revelation because it explains why tailored jackets and button-ups just look off on me; and it allowed me to stop trying to fit myself into them. It's not that deep but it's been very helpful.
Thank you so much for sharing these thoughts Lucy! I’ve been enjoying watching Kibbe content while holding it lightly. Meaning, I use Kibbe to create a look rather than try to achieve a body “type” or balance in my frame. I also appreciate how it allows me to understand objectively why some things (like trench coats for example) look strange on me - it’s the coat, not my body!
I feel you with criticising Kibbe. I went through it as well and felt so reduced, negatively effected and not even empowered to help myself find anything. Thankfully there are systems that focus and your gain, not the inventors/ sellers. Maybe check out the style key system by Rita. It’s a system that aims for your enjoyment, happiness and empowerment, men and women, and not for having a man tell you what’s pretty on you.
"Near all historic depictions of women's bodies in art have been nude." Truly, what are you talking about?
If you also consider your own style and preferences while using the Kibbe method it can be somewhat helpful. I have tall, relatively skinny and angular body type. I like how it's telling me to not lean towords very romantic floral and frilly clothes, as I have never liked them anyway. Those clothes look amaaazing on curvy bodies, or with more soft features. But that's about it what I took from it.
As person with curvier/thicker hourglass figure I always find it suprising when I hear that it’s the model shape becouse it’s almost imposible to find clothes other than dresses that fit my body, mostly pants 😅
“Fleshy” 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Kibbe does not encourage people to go to anyone other than himself for a Kibbe analysis. He would tell you there is no such thing as a 'Kibbe specialist'. He has not trained anyone, but there are certainly self-styled Kibbe interpreters around. Great video!
I still remember being a kid and filling out those “what body type are you” forms in seventeen magazine and hoping I would get hourglass. Such a wonderful breakdown video Lucy ❤️
I love these videos that you do! It's really not spoken enough about how your body changes as you get older. I'm 33 and still trying to come to terms with my changing body, especially like you say when body types are thrown into the mix. THEN sometimes I look at my body and think....what body type am I?!?
There were a few things that I think you got wrong on Kibbe: his system is not about achieving an hourglass, it’s about honoring your own shape. It does talk about weight and age - it basically doesn’t matter bc your ting yang balance is the same regardless of those factors. He doesn’t say you can’t type yourself, he says typing yourself is a journey because it’s hard to look at ourselves objectively. And it takes a while to do so. He also says if you wanted to get typed by a professional, he’s the only one that can do it, lol. Also, he says himself his system isn’t a body typing system, it’s an essence system. What vibe do you give off? That’s why a lot of the stuff he talks about is personality related. Btw, I don’t agree with Kibbe, I just don’t like it when things are poorly researched.
Honestly, I use kibbe but I don’t like that every criticism video I see of it is the same. Sure there’s no way it would fit everyone on the planet but at least look beyond surface level of the community. In his book he basically describes the types as more of personalities.
@@ameeraraven2698 That's literally more problematic though, I don't get how you don't see how that's worse.
I borrowed that Kibbe book from my public library and it was just so weird. Too many things to analyze in an impossible way about my body like sloped and rounded OR sloped and tapered OR symmetrical and even OR broad and blunt OR sharp and narrow AND that is just looking at your shoulders! The before and after photos were super strange too. I returned the book after a day. NO thanks.
You don’t have to learn how to look your best by this method, or this method alone. But I think it actually celebrates all kinds of beauty. Not sure you really did a good amount of research into it, as I didn’t feel it I’d about telling us all to be the hourglass. I’ve found s lot of solace in understanding how my body can be emphasised and mirrored by my style.
Am I the only arab person who saw this video title and assumed it would be about meatballs 🤣
My biggest problem with the Kibbe system is that it's so arbitrary and ambiguous as to be meaningless. Even the Kibbe acolytes often can't agree on the category a certain (famous) woman fits into. And Kibbe himself seems like a man who is literally just making it up as he goes along.
And anyway, it's still literally doing the same thing as the "basic shape system," just with different (and more confusing) words.
Mr.Kibbe missed out on creating his signature program 1. he can get compensated for his contribution and 2. others will implement it easily and consistently. I’ll show you how to package your unique brilliance and pass it to others.
Mr. Kibbe if you’re still on planet earth- contact me. ASAP.
To be honest, I couldn't finish watching your video because you were taking Kibbe system way out of context. I discovered this system about five months ago and it really has helped me understand why certain styles, fabrics and trends don't work for my body type. According to this system I'm in the Gamine category, Soft Gamine (5'2"). After finally understanding my body build, now I realized why most clothes at stores don't suit me. Because Gamines are petite and lots of clothing trends are not suited for petite and short women.
One thing I'm critical about the system is the labeling. Words like dramatic, flamboyant and romantic are quite outdated. The French word Gamine has its roots in not so flattering connotations. But there are young stylists who are deviating from those labels and using a wider range of words that can be simpler and more fitting for the current fashion trends.
All in all is just a tool and tools are meant to build something with them. Not an end on their own.
THIS!!!!! Personally I find personality typing (without connection to bodytyping!!) fun while knowing they're varying degrees of bullshit, but bodytyping just gives me the biggest ick no matter what the intention (and I say that as someone who's never had any real issues with her body (being a pear I guess lol) - but then again maybe that means I just can't relate enough). Anyways hate bodytyping thanks for saying smart things about why I'm right :D
THANK YOU! Geez, I think I kind of got slightly interested in kibbe to see if I could feel a bit better about my body (I guess somewhat body dismorphic sometimes) but I can't figure out what my "type" was supposed to be and then there's a flipping "height" limit as well and it just makes zero sense. Also fashion wise, different silhouettes are trendy at different times and I fundamentally dislike this idea that all your clothes have to "look flattering", that just kind of makes it boring! I do agree, I think people are trying to get a baseline of things so they have some sense of what to do since everything "trendy" is changing so fast..
Face readying which I just learned about is also based on this similar problematic take! We should question why theses body imaging methods are really starting to trend lately.? It’s quite concerning.
Perhaps worth a note that in reviewing “art” that goes as far back to the Antiquities that ideas of ‘nudity’, the (naked) ‘body’, the female/male body don’t necessarily carry the cultural contexts and cues the contemporary gaze levels upon these images and objects.
IMO it’s ok to (re)frame or recontextualise as a manner of remixing culture so to speak but I would urge and suggest for us to adopt an approach of intellectual honesty to ensure our audiences are clearly aware of these conceptual workings. To honour the people we have the exacting privilege to speak to here in this time and space
when i was struggling really badly with body and eating issues, thats when i found out there was such a thing as body types. knowing my body type gave me kind of relief(?) idk how to describe it. it did help understand that theres more types than just hourglass.
that said, it is absolutely disgusting how women are told how to dress based on their shapes. like you said, bodies change!!!! everyone forgets this.
100% agreed. it does make you more aware of things you never noticed before which imo and experience is so negative.
A man trying to empower women by categorising their bodies.. i dont see the need to defend that, not even a bit, women dont need this
I know right, like obviously women really needed his help because we can't do anything without a man saying it's correct - we're not qualified to categorise our own bodies, or dress ourselves lol ew! (s)
Loved this! I was just about to comment about how this body typing system reminded me of the Myers-Briggs personality types, and then that was the very next part of the video 😁 I think you're so right about these systems filling that desire to feel understood and to have some kind of external, seemingly objective limits to work within. That was the appeal of both the capsule wardrobe and the MBTI for me, but then eventually they both just started to feel predetermined, preventing me from developing in my style/personality.
I strongly disagree with everything you say in this video. These systems have helped me a lot. I think Kibbe or the yin and yang system and the Kitchener essences are an important and drmocratic countrtpart to the fadhion system and the capitalistic beauty buisiness. They offer a possibility to find vloting that are nade for different body types. Criticize the fadhion industry that make clothes for tall, large boned women! Should all the rest of us just sit there and passively accept whst they command? It’s much better to use systems that applaude all shapes snd I think Kibbe does! We do have a body and we want to look our best. That’s just the way it is. If you’re not into it go do something else. It could be a good idea to go to someone who is a bit trained in it is very difficult to analize yourself. I think this is a democratic, hood and fun system. Style is meant to be fun. And for me it has been empowering and bery positive. It isn’t a perfect system but much much better than what the fashin industry will ever offer «normal» women!
Super interesting as always! 💖 i would also argue that this desire to create categories for your body/personality also feels linked to the commodifying of individuals, to becime marketable and build a brand online that people can easily relate to! (Like oh this influencer is an pear shape, me too, etc etc)
I follow one Kibbe tiktoker but thankfully she isnt totally wed to the concept, and other viewers have challenged her to use examples of people who are not white, which she has done. However, other diversities are really underrepresented and it sucks.
I found your perspective in this video very helpful, but the comments were fascinating.
For a number of reasons, over the last few years, I’d lost my sense of self-expression through clothing. And, literally, some of my sense of Self. Exploring online ideas like Kibbe, Kitchener, and color analysis were helpful tools and toys as I thrift-shopped my way back to a fun and genuine closet.
But the methods have rigidly defined rules, and as I was finding myself again, I had to be aware of not allowing them to define ME. I was grateful to find your video among the intensely earnest advocates of these methods.
The comments here are an interesting mix of those who have no use for body typing, those that use it casually as a tool, and quite many of those who appear rather miffed at anything they feel that you erred on. I was struck by how little exchange of ideas there is in this comment section- each person individually commenting, but nearly no one commenting to respond to someone else. Less than I typically see. Why?
I suspect that you struck a nerve. Whether we like to admit it or not, it’s human nature to want to belong, to be part of a larger group. It feels secure. We use it to help define who we are, for better or worse. We can over-embrace group values at the cost of our own sense of individual identity. You’ve challenged that fashion and body type group values, when embraced, can influence us more than we might like to imagine. You drew a line in the sand. And commenters, perhaps, arranged themselves along that line.
Thank you for talking about this!
I feel so validated in routinely ignoring kibbe shorts/reels/TikToks. It feels like they came out of nowhere, claiming to be objective.
Gosh, these essays are so good and informative everytime. Thanks, for the insight and for being brave enough to bring the eugenics background into this.
I noticed a long time ago that I didn't seem to be able to fit into any of the major body types (apple, pear, hourglass, etc). I would look at examples and explanations, but compared to my body, they would seem contradictory. Am I still a pear if I have broad shoulders? Am I an hourglass if I have a big belly? Am I an apple if my chest is small? etc. It felt like all of that wasn't made for me, and turns out, that's exactly the case. So many things in fashion, trends and aesthetics actively exclude plus size bodies, as they work to focus on the shape/silhouette instead of the clothes. And that is so, so hard to unlearn (especially when its reinforced everywhere you look), and I struggle with it every day, feeling like this whole world of beauty just doesn't care to include me in it, because I'm shaped wrong in ways that I cannot change (especially not at the pace of trends these days).
I just now looked through a kibbe body type test, and sure enough, none of the examples were plus size bodies, or even showed any "extremes" (they have a section on noses, and all of them look identical to me). I wouldn't even consider any of the examples shown as "average". Oh, and almost all the examples are white, too, which obviously is a can of worms in itself. I wish so much of fashion wasn't just skinny culture.
Honestly, I know people will just say 'you're just not good at determining your Kibbe body type', but the only thing it did was make me feel like/strengthen my thoughts that my body looks weird as I didn't really fit in any one of the categories - then they start adding 'mountain' etc for style... I'm just done being told how I 'should' dress, by a man as well lol.
I have such a mixed relationship with the Kibbe types! On the one hand, they helped me embrace the features I have that aren't "trending" and encouraged me to think about dressing for me, style over trends, and helped me think more about the longevity of future purchases. And I never found it that difficult to disregard the guidance that didn't resonate with me.
But, once I got pregnant... it all went out the window. I could no longer dress for my "rules" and felt adrift again. Will I feel the same post partum?! Who knows!
Ok but a quick note, corsets don't change your body (or are not suppsoed to with standard usage), they just change your figure and proportions of your outfit. But it's not shapewear or plastic surgery
The answer to Kibbe method is already part of the classical styling method, at least in my view and my styling approach. So called "hourglass ideal" is merely a point of reference which is needed when it comes to styling. Why is it needed? Not because we try to achieve that a woman looks different than she actually does. What we, however, do try to achieve is a rather neutral look (yes, with a reference to hourglass, but there are no strict rules to follow, that is why one hires a stylist in the first place), in which women feel comfortable, and NOT some kind of sexy male gaze look. But why style (according to body type) at all? Especially when we know that women's bodies are seen as objects in this society. We do not, unfortunately, become any less objects when we stop dressing according to the womanly stereotype (I hope we can agree on that), and ironically (or not?) classical approach to style has gone the farthest when it comes to seeing women as subjects, all by trying to achieve a neutral look (still feminine, up to some point). Further discussions are very much needed here. As you said, it is a whole philosophy (while Kibbe's ideas are just simplifications and do include a sexist position, in my opinion).
I must say, the kibbe system helped me a lot letting go the idea of looking a certain way depending on beauty trends. I then saw women that had so much in common with my body, so I could stop judging myself under the male gaze. I didn't understand the argument of thinnes because kibbe is not depending on weight. My best friend is plus size and she felt empowered due to understanding her uniqness and own beauty in her body shape after finding her kibbe-type. Anyway I think the discussion is still important, love your videos!
Loved this!
🫶🫶
The hourglass ideal hasn't been a universal! Traditional Japanese beauty used to emphasize a slim columnar look, even padding out women's waists under kimono in order to achieve it.
I personally feel Kibbe can be more useful to any female or gender non-conforming person who wants to lean into more of their natural masculinity. Its personally allowed me to notice the more masculine attributes I have where growing up it was all about noticing the feminine traits. I'm now able to dress in a more adrogynous way that doesn't look in conflict with me, it looks harmonious.
This was a super interesting video. I legit wish there were more clothing options for those of us who are incredibly tall and wear items marketed towards women. We don't have much to choose from sadly.
The short girl committee supports this message and agrees
In addition to being very Euro-centric, most of the Kibbe body types seemed to be geared towards shorter women. So, as a relatively tall woman (5'9) with a smaller frame, I also found accurate categorization with the Kibbe body type test elusive. This is just to say that it may exclude quite a few women and is just generally hogwash.
Yes! Exactly this. I'm 5'9 as well, none of the Kibbe body types fit me.
This is such an interesting breakdown of body typing! It reminds me of Abby Cox's recent video about "face reading" (aka phrenology) and how it's rooted in colonisation and oppression!
Although I totally agree with you that with fashion there's this struggle between self expression and the ever accelerating trend cycle which is such a difficult tightrope to walk. Has my style actually changed or is it just the trend cycle? Did skinny jeans ever look good on me or was that just the trend cycle?
Brilliant video! I remember watching the Buzzfeed video of ideal bodies through the ages when I was 14 and trying to figure out which one I was... even though I was literally a child
Yesssss so excited, such a great video idea! Love your videos, Lucy ❤
Appreciate your intelligent discussion of this topic.
I like balancing my proportions
Really appreciate this video!
apple and pear are only 'recent' inventions from the late 20th century. I think hourglass is 50s (or earlier). Various different fashionable body silhouettes for men and especially women have trended with fashion and across geographies and social groups throughout history.
Thank you for addressing the pseudoscientific way Kibbe body types are regarded. As someone who got listened to a lot of body type content recently, you hit the nail on the head. Really hope you don't get too much hate for this video.
Lucy I am LOVING this content, I love that you're filming a range of all the things you're great at and interested in, I love every single video you're making these days! I hope the youtube algorithm never pressures you to find a restrictive box to fit in, the more you do what you love the more I love your content! ❤❤ I for one am not going anywhere as a viewer 😘
YESSS!! What a great video, Lucy!! Love the editing style and sociology dialogues. I'd be so into a video about micro-trends & the increasing pace of trend cycling!!
i never noticed but oh my god youre right! im now thinking about all netflix shows ive been watching recently and basing personality with body shapes is so disappointingly common
Yo Lucy. Moon.
This was so informative and well structured, i really enjoyed this!!!
Thank you so much for making this video!
Great video Lucy! Appreciate the historical connections you made, needs to be highlighted more.
wow loved your comment about just when we know what our style is, everything changes! i just realized that i feel exactly like this
all i can say is thank you for posting this video 😊
This is such an insightful discussion of the topic! Thank you!
The thumbnail looks SO hannah witton and i love it
Unrelated, love your balayage!
Ahhhh I can't say how happy I am to see this video. It's been driving me up the wall, that it feels like literally every influencer has to do this or color theory or MBTI or even astrology. I'm not against it because it's "a girl thing and girl things are devalued" but because of the roots of all that stuff in eugenics, in social control, in the idea of predetermination based on birth, in fancy phrenology. Also frustrating when people say hating on astrology is racist because astrology is used in other cultures - as someone from one of those cultures, I'm very glad when astrology is removed from decision making. Anyways have to stop before I go on too much of a rant but this video is very refreshing and I hope you don't get negative comments from the people who ascribe to those beliefs.
I think when something like astrology is so easily provably wrong, it's fine to say what you think - if one culture thought the Earth was flat, should we start humouring them? That would be like saying witch doctors are real doctors... I also really resent that pseudoscience is labelled a girl thing, that feels demeaning to me on it's own.
First of all, I beg to differ ideal is to be model looking, tall and super skinny, not a hourglass, very few clothes is made that actually fit hourglasses correctly (hip to thigh ratio, boxy shirts ect). Hourglass maybe used to be desired and still is through male gaze but in reality really isn't.
Look, I am well aware how problematic Kibbie body typing is, I'm not denying that. However it helped me so much to accept myself, how I look and to finally find my confidence. I went through my teenage years during late 2000s early 2010s when only one body type was "popular" and that did damage on me, cause obviously I wasn't that. Nothing fitted right so I'd exit stores feeling even worse about myself. Return of 2000s fashion actually triggered me last year and I cried for three days cause I wasn't able to find anything that fits me for my graduation celebration cause guess what, it's not "fashionable" to have curves anymore. Kibbie and the examples actually helped me access why only few things worked on me and why I was feeling bad. So when I started dressing according to my body type I could finally see that my body wasn't an issue. I'm slowly changing over my wardrobe, mostly waiting for things to breake so I can replace it second hand and I'm still wearing clothes that are not really for my type but I love. I just pair it with something that fits. It's first body type where I felt like you really DON'T chase hourglass shape, it just celebrates what you look best in. Or at least that's how I interpreted it with people I watch since I don't follow Kibbie himself. Also, body type is not a law that you must follow, it's a tool and you make the rules how or even if you'll follow. The goal is for you to feel better, and if helps great and if it doesn't do what does.
Also to add something to what you said about body changing, essentials that helps you get typed according to Kibbie doesn't really change, your bones stay the same, and your height will be more or less consistent after certain point.
Again, does Kibbie deserves valid criticism yes, for example when he waited till Adele lost weight to type her or how majority of examples are skinny and yt and more things mentioned in this video but If you deverge from him and his narrow point of view and find people who are expanding on his idea, body typing can be really helpful
wow i love this video!! so well researched and well written!
I would love to see some links to the studies you mention, especially about how people link personality type to appearance. For example, you said that "we consider the most telling trait of a woman her hip to waist ratio" - is this based on a statistic or just anecdotally?
You point out that lots of these body typing systems are pseudoscience (so not based on research), so I think it's important that you include references to published research to back up your points. Sorry to be critical, I mean it as constructive criticism!
Of course! Here’s the study I referenced showing participants linking personality traits to body types: journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797618799300?journalCode=pssa
And here’s another I used to write this video: journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0956797612446349?icid=int.sj-abstract.similar-articles.1
And another: journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0956797610388048
Hope this clarifies things!
@@lucymoon Thank you so much, these look really interesting! :)
This is so enlightening! Thank you 🥰
Love your videos always nice & wholesome
I really thank you for this video. You articulated well everything I felt was wrong about bodytyping and Kibbe!
Fascinating!
🔥🔥🔥
This is OD. I clicked to learn something new since I been reading Kibbe and Kitchener and other systems but instead a lecture on whiteness. As someone that doesn’t fit the standards extremely well because I’m very muscular petite and curvy. I do know that if I lost some weight the Kibbe types are somewhat accurate because they account for thinness. Nobody is born fat. No body. As someone who grew up around every ethnicity I seen most kids and young adults (myself included) with six packs or flat tummy. Not everyone belly button is knuckles deep.
Great vid ❤
I love this video!
I preface this by saying I don't know much about this topic at all, but I am not sure I follow the train of lack of diversity and inclusion in the framework here. I believe from a graphic point of view, showing different skin colours/ethnicities, age etc when you're trying to focus your audience on the more minute differences between a body and another in terms of proportions would be a bit counter productive. People would focus on the "biggest difference" they see in the models and interpret the disability /ethnicity represented in the model as a type in itself instead of being someone representing one specific body type.
I believe it makes sense to have a frame of reference where the models are similar to one another but embody the difference the author is trying to highlight. Do I think there should be one set for each ethnicity/disability/age etc? Probably. Do I think at the time the model was skewed by racism, probably. Do we need more representation? Yes. But from a practical stand point, working off a standard makes sense to instruct people on what they are trying to learn. (This doesn't mean the standard should be white, but alas I'm assuming Kibbe is white so obviously they "teach close to home" as it's easier to talk about something you're part of).
I really think you should try again and see a kibbe consultant. It's a system that was made so you can embrace your natural lines and wear clothes that are in more harmony with your body so your natural features can shine. You were skeptical about color analysis but found it pleasant, why not kibbe analysis?
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