I hope one day I can consider a 3,500$ speaker affordable so I can experience the incredible things yall build. Those two pieces of art are my end game. Thanks for the daily entertainment and sharing your wealth of knowledge :)
3500 for a little 2 way bookshelf? Why? No knock on PS audio products, they're good products, and they cost a lot in part because of the finish/build and the brand name - their cost is not purely reflective of performance and the component cost, they are absolutely a high margin overpriced audiophile brand, it is what it is. If you only care about performance and not brand name or their unique aesthetic, you can get superior performance for less money, especially if you go DIY, or used, or simply choose from the best of the higher value options under 3500, based on objective testing (erin's audio corner, stereophile, those using klippel data especially like those two, but some others have adequate quality testing methods too).
@@Artcore103 I did just order a pair of overnight sensations as my first diy build 🤘🏼 hopefully will like them enough to replace my desktop HomePods for near field.
@@sharonleibel @ yeah it’s all subjective. If I could just experience something better than my Bose 4001s from the 90s it would probably be a much easier pill to swallow lol keep saving my Pennie’s I guess 🤙🏼🤘🏼
Like hearing 30k speakers at a celebrities house. Then playing my Bose 901 version 2 10ft apart with 3k worth electronics and blown away by how a 700 dollar speaker 🔊 mop the floor on the so-called hi end bullshit FACTS @@LikelyLagging
Good post Paul, I like your take on this. The perfect speaker is the one that you can enjoy listening to your music on.....a rare beast indeed. That is my end goal for all of the speakers that I design, 2 way, 3 way, whatever it is. All of us speaker designers face the compromises and work with them accordingly to try and bring the music alive. Cheers. Ian , Leicester. UK.
Agreed. I listen to his video each morning because it is interesting and soothing to hear his voice. The comments are the most interesting thing about the topic.
Paul is right. There's no perfect speaker or any other equipment. I would advise you to listen to music not to your equipment and come down to Earth and to the REAL world.
Dear Pul, I totally respect your honesty, a rare commodity today. Years ago, on one of the Hi-Hi shows I attended in Manhattan at the AR room there was a sign that sated: if God wanted us to attend a concert he would have given us tickets. Yes indeed no speaker is perfect. It's all an illusion, At a certain point we must listen to the music not the equipment. This is not to say that designers should stop. They always must try to create equipment that is less imperfect. Thank you for your wonderful reviews. All the best.
Dear Paul, very true THERE IS NO PERFECT LOUDSPEAKER. I like that You stated that. There are a wide range of Speakers - also good ones. Do You know Boenicke Speakers - I very satified with these.
There’s something remarkable about the sound of a single point source and the old Tannoy dual concentric loudspeakers like the Berkeleys and Lancasters were a joy to listen to when the source material was tape or vinyl. With more modern recordings they can sometimes sound a little harsh in the upper mids which is probably why they don’t get used as much as they did back in the day.
Both speakers have their advantages of course. Aesthetically I like floorstanding speakers but there is no denying that a well designed bookshelf speakers can sound amazing! I’ve listened to the Radiant Acoustics Clarity 6.2 and these speakers are just amazing. Even coming close to floorstanding speakers
I made a remote speaker switch so I could set up my 3 favourite pairs of speakers, including a pair I made myself. After doing that I have had so much delight in matching speakers to both song and mood. One day I might find a song more pleasurable on one pair of speakers and another day it might sound better on a different pair. The main point is that there is no perfect, there is just differences
My favorite speaker of all time is the Ohm F from 1972 and Dale Harder's excellent upgrades to the design. This is a single-driver speaker with the cone pointed down into a sound damped cabinet. What you hear radiates coherently from the sides of the cone. There is no crossover. I've never heard better soundstage. Modern designs from Ohm use a similar driver plus a conventional super tweeter, so they are two-way. They come close. Similar coherent soundstage effects can be heard from speakers with concentric coaxial drivers such as the KEF Uni-Q which are also very good at point-source coherency. As always, what is "better" depends on your personal preferences.
I wish I had enough money to buy a pair of Ohm Fs back in the day. I thought they were great sounding speakers. Unfortunately, I still can't afford that kind of stuff.
Headphones come with 1-way drivers. Smaller speakers are usually 2-way. Adding a subwoofer can make it a pseudo 3-way system. Larger speakers often have 3-way or even more. Perhaps a common theme is that the more air you want to move (louder sound) with a neutral undistorted frequency response, the more "ways" you need. FR30 can play louder and deeper than FR5 thanks to more drivers and more volume. In my home office setup I'm currently using KEF LSXII with a subwoofer, and for such very near-field listening, I enjoy the single point source Uni-Q drivers eliminating the comb-effect you easily have with traditional 2-ways or more speakers.
Especially when you don't have a "perfect" place to put a bigger speaker. A 2-way with subs placed in a "perfect" place have advantages compared to a "big speaker". Big speakers can sound impressive, I have heard many, but they are not designed to be in a normal living-room without acoustic treatment. 2-way speakers together with subs and a bit room-correction is much easier to enjoy, for couples and people that live in apartments.
Ok, correct answer Paul.. Full disclosure, I don't always completely agree with some of your answers to audio questions, but this time you nailed it. And yet, there will still be dissension!😂
One way. Two way. Three way. Four way. It’s kinda like comparing 4 cylinder 6 cylinder 8 cylinder and 12 cylinder engines. They all have advantages and disadvantages.
Good Day Paul. The Britisch Speaker manufacturers from the sixties. Made excellent two way speakers, for this reason I listen only to two way speakers from Leak.
How true - one should let one's ears do the listening - if it more than fits the bill sonically for you....who gives a hoot if others say otherwise. Remember, you're the one listening in your lounge/listening space after all. Also, do not underestimate the power of your (we all have 'em) sonic preferences. I feel having that clarity ensures you get what you want and if not, at least allows you the scope to be pleasantly surprised sonically every now & again (i.e. when you hear/are impressed/blown away by what will be your next future purchase/upgrade).
The main problems with 2-ways : - the crossover is in the area where the ear is most sensitive, around 2-4kHz. - the tweeter is operating at the bottom of its operating range where diaphragm excursion (and hence motor distortion) is greatest. - a small woofer lacks bass capability and usually has poor sensitivity. A large woofer has poor directivity and loss of low-level detail in the midrange due to it's moving mass. Still, value wise, there is no better option than 2 way in applications with low power requirements. Going to a 3-way increases, size, complexity and cost dramatically but for low distortion and dynamics at realistic listening levels it is the best choice. I use 3-ways + active subs DG (30 years of building speakers)
Although the listed problems (challenges) are real, I believe good solutions do exist since there are some amazing-sounding 2-way speakers on the market today. I believe the big advantages of a properly designed 2-way can outweigh these challenges. An example of such successful 2-way speaker is Kudos Titan 707, which is fullrange (2 bass/midrange drivers). Another Doxa 8.2, which I have myself, also full-range (about 20 Hz in-room response). Both are truly amazing speakers. Main advantages of a 2-way with 1st order crossover: 1) Excellent coherence between drivers (nearly point-source) 2) More direct and purer sound 3) Excellent imaging due to less phase-shift issues (timing errors). Besides, also a 3-way speaker will typically have its crossover frequency in the 2-4 kHz area (between midrange & tweeter), so this is not unique to 2-way speakers.
i like your points, i have come so far to end up with a solution close to yours. 2 way+ two stereo subwoofers. problem was finding 2 way main speakers that was not made to make bass. but i did find a 2 way that was sealed design, two 5" woofers MTM, 1.1" tweeter in waveguide at 1.5khz crossover. avoiding most of your concerns and gaining sensitivity. dsp crossover to make it a 3 way with passive subwoofers. end result: 180hz/1500hz 3 way high output full range to 16hz.
I build 2-ways and 3-ways and I like big. My speakers are FR +woofer and coaxial +woofer. The FR or coaxial is open, on top of the box with the woofer in the box. The woofer fires down onto the floor, with an annular bass vent around the base plate of the open top driver. So the bass comes from nowhere cos you don't hear it directly. And the rest of the whole signal comes from the top point source driver. Open FR yields more top end treble than in the box (by a lot). My coaxil version has an open 10" "guitar" driver on top, with the time aligned cental tweeter (with cutouts in the 10" cone, to breathe). The best medrange I heard, that also comes from nowhere (and is heard directly). Point source does that. And dipole ambience! The treble is also great (with a very large hole in the soft dome tweeter, to breathe). Vast improvement to the original tweeter. No enclosed cavities! One of my whims. Only the box for the woofer is enclosed. The 10" cone has bass fed into it down to 100 hz. This gives the kick sound like at a venue when you hear that haunting "puh-huh" around the corner from the kit. 😂 Never heard that on a system before. The open 10" cone blends with the bass from the woofer to improve the bass, since the bottom woofer has a really large inductor. Twangy funky sounding bass on the top driver and punch like crazy on the bottom woofer. Great fun hearing. But the most fun is the med range. So clean compared to a box! So reliably "perfect" voice sound, with air. 🎉 And treble is so soothing even though it's a bit bright. But instead of making it "muffly", I made the treble sound different, not less treble (after trying a lot). Silibant tracks still are, but the silibance sounds better. 😂 Good test for that is "Love is Strong" by the Rolling Stones. 😂
Thanks to Paul for the reply!! While "the perfect speaker" does not exist, I guess pretty close would be a 2-way that ALSO can play deep bass and has powerful dynamics. There actually are a few speakers like that on the market. To my ears, the seemless coherence between drivers, the imaging, the immediacy and "nearness" - this is magical stuff that it is really difficult to achieve with 3-way or 4-way speakers due to the several drivers, steep crossover slopes, resulting phase-shift (timing) issues etc.
After three decades of experience with two-way speakers, I recently acquired the new Dali Rubicon 6, a 2½+½ speaker, and I must say, the audio quality is exceptional.
@@primalscream46 BA really performs above it's price point. I refoamed the 10" drivers on my A100s and they are still going strong 20 years later. My first DIY experiments were some voodoo mods that I thought brought them up a notch. On DIY audio, there was a particularly voodoo process called Enable where you treat the cone with some modpodge to stiffen it and then paint dots of a particular pattern around the edges of the cone. It was described by Bud Purvine, a transformer winding wizzard. No doubt controversial, but I became and advocate. Also added some blue tack to the stamped basket to reduce ringing and swapped in some better parts in the crossover. With time the speakers did the disappearing act and imaged really well.
I believe it ultimately comes down to expertise. The simpler a design, the easier it is to make it sound "right." When you add more components to a speaker-or to most systems, really-you also introduce additional complexity. That’s not to say that more drivers or added complexity are inherently bad, but they do bring along a host of challenges that need to be managed. This is why companies often develop a bias toward certain designs. Some may excel at crafting 2-way speakers because their expertise lies in refining that balance between simplicity and performance. Others, however, might specialize in 3-way designs or even larger, more intricate systems. Similarly, there are companies that are absolute masters at creating immersive 7.1 surround setups, while others focus on delivering unparalleled stereo performance. Ultimately, the expertise behind the design dictates how well the system performs, regardless of whether it’s a minimalistic 2-way speaker or a multi-driver, surround-sound masterpiece.
Perfection is an idea for aiming high. Long ago a customer asked me if I did perfect tile work (I'm a tile man). I said, there is no such thing as perfect tile but there is such a thing as really good tile work. I do really good tile work. The same goes for speakers, I'm sure. I suspect there comes a point in speaker design that factors not a part of the speaker become make or break. That is, a perfect speaker would have to reside in a perfect room being fed a perfect signal. As far as speakers in a Star Trek universe, I would think that they would be using force fields to move air directly with no actual physical matter involved and no static source point.
Bang Olufsen S60 is a special 3 way speaker? It has an extra filler speaker in it? Because the filter is second order they add a filler driver so they hadn't put some of the driver's in opposite polarity.
Would like to point out a deficiency in the point source contenders in the high-end market. In their 2-way designs the tweeters response gets disrupted by cone excursion at higher levels. A 3-way design in point source with supporting woofers keep cone excursion to a minimum as the midrange driver can be crossed over higher. Imho you stay away from the 2-way designs and find competent 3-way designs to minimize that problem.
For a start, high pass filters are more critical, particularly in terms of distortion, than low pass filters. That means you have one high pass and not two. And I have seen midrange high pass that are not done right. So yes, there is something to be said for it. But right, it is not always the case.
Which bookshelf speaker is better, a tiny one with a 4 inch woofer, or a slightly bigger speaker with a 7 inch woofer, or a 3 way bookshelf speaker with both woofers.
One of the best sounding speakers I ever owned was a two-way. The worst sounding (supposedly high-end audio) speaker I ever owned was a two-way also. I bought that one based on the manufacturer's reputation without doing an A/B comparison to something I was familiar with. Never again.
Q Paul how big is the sweet-spot (as point source might be misleading) so several people can enjoy the sound stage at once for PSA speakers set up correctly please
Agree there is no perfect speaker (or system). My strategy re: speakers…an upstairs system with small 2-way bookshelves, and big system in basement with full range three-way speakers. Best of both worlds.
So many speakers. But the catch is, lower production equals higher prices, so many of us do not get to enjoy some or even dream of it. For two ways, I assume that many are speaking of mini monitors or the like where the woofer is not out of proportion to provide good midrange response. Back in the 70s some rock speakers were huge woofers and little tweeters, something is sacrificed.
I had my bass amp downstairs connected via a mixer/recorder to pc, decks, a guitar and a bass. A roland cube 120xl with a single 12" coaxial speaker that was bought just for the bass guitar, but through whatever witchcraft they employed, it could the really high and low notes when playing techno music. Badly wanted to get a second for stereo, but for unknown reasons they discontinued it within a short time, despite a lot of good reviews.
Erin Audio Corner reviewed the FR5 recently. It was nice to hear that PS audio sent him a pair to review. The speaker scored pretty well yet there were a few issues. One think that is strange is that if the membranes are so light etc. why does the speaker have a sensibility of 81db? Probably just my ignorance.
Audiophile quality Woofers, require stronger Magnets, for superior non-distorting Cone Control + Faster Acceleration speeds. The stronger the magnetics, the more Power is required... hence, less Sensitivity, and less overall output volume. BUT... you will get Much better Bass, with Excellent "Punch"
Although sensitivity in dB/W is not the same that sensitivity in dB/2.83V (both at 1 m), both are low. Many times, LPAD resistors are added to the tweeter (which has a light membrane) circuit to match the lower sensitivity of the woofer associated with a baffle step compensation circuit (lowers sensitivity but increases mid-low and low frequencies that have been cancelled partially by the front baffle). Speed, lightness give speed the transducer regardless of the sensitivity (and resistors in the circuit). Some speakers with "higher" sensitivity, don't compensate baffle step or don't go as low; these do very well. Great speakers, great review.
Why the low sensitivity? Because of the chosen target extension of the box/driver/vent design. Hoffman's Iron Law; (pick two) - Deep Extension - High Sensitivity - Compact Size Adequate extension/output in a small box, ... sensitivity is forsaken.
@ - Oh I’d dint even think of that, but I’m sure the speaker’s metal foot can support its own weight. My thought was that it got messed up moving around so much. He’s talking about how they went to all these shows in different cities. Things get bumped and knocked around on the road.
This is the point I try to make with my friend who's a fellow hifi hobbyist. It's very easy to simply equate cost with improved performance. While it's true to a degree, there are exceptions.Different speaker designs will often have trade offs from eachother, so even a cheaper model can have advantages over much more expensive designs.
Yes, but they are not practical and the average person doesn't want to be poisoned by ozon. Until a true practical solution is found I settle for a driver with a little more mass 😃
Norway👌😎 Sorry, Paul but here in Norway we make speakers that are just as good or better than yours🤷♂️ No offence.. Btw, I have 5 way (I would kinda call it 4,5 way since it has bass, midbass, midrange, tweeter and then the extra "super sudio" tweeter) speakers and they make most music sound great.
I like two subwoofers with two way, three way or more. It's not about bass extension and volume, but placement, sound-stage and a more uniform frequency response. Any speaker that isn't against the wall will have partial cancellation. At 1,08 m (front baffle-wall) the cancellation will be around 80 Hz with lower frequencies that sound louder. Subs can help to fill and compensate that acoustic problem.
I had a system like that for many, many years. While I did like the sound quality, there is also a downside, where, depending on design, the upper bass can be a little too lightweight to realistically convey individual musical instruments like the piano or saxophone or trumpet for example. But they can have fantastic imaging and completely disappear sonically, and sound clean because of a lack of upper bass.
The demands for bass (up to the midbass), midrange and high frequencies are all so different that a 2 way speaker is ALWAYS a compromise! That does not mean that two way can not be good - or even optimum for small rooms or listening distances. A subwoofer can not replace a great woofer in a 3 way system.
A wider baffle needed for large woofers, or a tall one for multiple woofers are also a compromise; Sound-stage and imaging can be worse. Big speakers might also improve with two subwoofers, because the problem is the room acoustics (reflections of the front wall cancel some output around 80 Hz [for 1,08 m]).
A big high output, low distortion multi-way is a comprimise too. Challenging driver to driver integration, less than optimal imaging soundstaging and dimensionality, ... than a modestly sized stand mount. The baffle face, very early diffraction components, etc., all minimized by the small physical profile. Bonus, oftentimes easier to place ideally.
Far too many variables to provide a simple answer to this. Many will have their favourites,but there are pros and cons all over the place for the numerous available options.
Buying your speakers... first you must have a budget you are looking at. This will also cancel out a lot of speakers immediately both higher and lower priced. Then comes the fun. Actually listening to speakers. Take your time and get to know them. If you do this you will not be constantly looking for the next best thing and more importantly get to do what all this is about... enjoying the amazing music. Been enjoying amazing music now for over 20 years with my speakers and no want to change at all. Pick once and start listening.
Wait too many variables, I would say that a three-way the superior if done correctly. Not to say that a 2 way cannot be done correctly, but we're talking about superior. Beaming, etc
Paul, you appear to be out of phase when you walk behind the pole from one side to the other. It just doesn't look right.😆 Actually maybe it's just a phase shift instead.
i want full range reproduction so i probably run into compromise to get there. 3 way is the lowest i could go to achieve that. a 4 way would probably be an even higher compromise.
Yes, there’s a lot more that goes into a 3way then a 2. A well built and timed 3way can be slightly better then a2 way with more detail separation and a little more clarity. But a well built 2way can do the same. It’s really just a matter of preference. I don’t buy speakers based off if they a 2 or 3way. Some people do. Like Paul said there 2way bookshelf is being raved about.
For $3500, I can get a speaker like the MoFi SourcePoint 10 that will play louder and with excellent coherence. Sorry Paul, but there are better deals out there in that brutal audio marketplace.
While you may prefer the speaker that plays louder, that speaker (MoFi) does not have the excellent tweeter that PS Audio developed, which is one of the best tweeters out there.
Your room, my room, their room will dictate to how any pair of speakers will sound. Doesn't matter what brand or size of speaker. Then there is going to be what type of music you're going to be listening to. Way too many variables to throw up in the air. That's why PS Audio will give you an in home trial. If they don't suit your room, send them back.
Hahaha , I have a solution. You should allways choose the 2 way over the 3 way. Then you realise you need a subwoofer ;) /yess , its obvious trolling but kinda showcase the problem/
Main problem of small and simple speakers is not that they cannot produce low/high harmonics, It is not heard because due to size which corresponds to length of middle range waves they have characteristic and not enough controlled mid resonances. It is like big and small drum - while all are produced, we always hear most effective resonance
I have more than once sat at a dealership and listened to dirt expensive, exotic speaker systems that sound like crap. I early on lost all respect for that industry. BS talk all over the place.
Some CEOs are pretty likable. Paul is for sure one of the best. Model to follow!! Keep up the great work/ teaching. Thanks 🙏
I hope one day I can consider a 3,500$ speaker affordable so I can experience the incredible things yall build. Those two pieces of art are my end game. Thanks for the daily entertainment and sharing your wealth of knowledge :)
Completely agree!!! The FR10 at $3,500 being “affordable” is a stretch, but compared to those $30K FR30 is a totally different reality.
3500 for a little 2 way bookshelf? Why? No knock on PS audio products, they're good products, and they cost a lot in part because of the finish/build and the brand name - their cost is not purely reflective of performance and the component cost, they are absolutely a high margin overpriced audiophile brand, it is what it is. If you only care about performance and not brand name or their unique aesthetic, you can get superior performance for less money, especially if you go DIY, or used, or simply choose from the best of the higher value options under 3500, based on objective testing (erin's audio corner, stereophile, those using klippel data especially like those two, but some others have adequate quality testing methods too).
@@Artcore103 I did just order a pair of overnight sensations as my first diy build 🤘🏼 hopefully will like them enough to replace my desktop HomePods for near field.
@@sharonleibel @ yeah it’s all subjective. If I could just experience something better than my Bose 4001s from the 90s it would probably be a much easier pill to swallow lol keep saving my Pennie’s I guess 🤙🏼🤘🏼
Like hearing 30k speakers at a celebrities house. Then playing my Bose 901 version 2 10ft apart with 3k worth electronics and blown away by how a 700 dollar speaker 🔊 mop the floor on the so-called hi end bullshit FACTS @@LikelyLagging
Good post Paul, I like your take on this. The perfect speaker is the one that you can enjoy listening to your music on.....a rare beast indeed. That is my end goal for all of the speakers that I design, 2 way, 3 way, whatever it is. All of us speaker designers face the compromises and work with them accordingly to try and bring the music alive. Cheers. Ian , Leicester. UK.
I would love to see Paul start a 2nd channel where he relaxes in a recliner in front of a fireplace while reading us a book. 🙃📖
Agreed. I listen to his video each morning because it is interesting and soothing to hear his voice. The comments are the most interesting thing about the topic.
@@DarthVader1977 would fall asleep to that shit every night. Paul + the loud speaker design cook book would be legendary
That’s not a pole, you are obviously moving between two realities when you walk from speaker to speaker
He’s transporting from one side to the other. Beam me up, Scottie!
Sonics gravitate dimensionally
Paul is right. There's no perfect speaker or any other equipment. I would advise you to listen to music not to your equipment and come down to Earth and to the REAL world.
Like Back to the Future. 😊
As long as no one mentions being a pole dancer.
Did nobody notice the bend in the right speakers foot?
Dear Pul, I totally respect your honesty, a rare commodity today. Years ago, on one of the Hi-Hi shows I attended in Manhattan at the AR room there was a sign that sated: if God wanted us to attend a concert he would have given us tickets. Yes indeed no speaker is perfect. It's all an illusion, At a certain point we must listen to the music not the equipment. This is not to say that designers should stop. They always must try to create equipment that is less imperfect. Thank you for your wonderful reviews. All the best.
I love that magical charm of a 2 way
Dear Paul, very true THERE IS NO PERFECT LOUDSPEAKER. I like that You stated that. There are a wide range of Speakers - also good ones. Do You know Boenicke Speakers - I very satified with these.
Fantastic "response" Paul!
There’s something remarkable about the sound of a single point source and the old Tannoy dual concentric loudspeakers like the Berkeleys and Lancasters were a joy to listen to when the source material was tape or vinyl. With more modern recordings they can sometimes sound a little harsh in the upper mids which is probably why they don’t get used as much as they did back in the day.
You would love KEF Meta blades, quite possibly one of the best speakers to come to the market recently.
Both speakers have their advantages of course. Aesthetically I like floorstanding speakers but there is no denying that a well designed bookshelf speakers can sound amazing! I’ve listened to the Radiant Acoustics Clarity 6.2 and these speakers are just amazing. Even coming close to floorstanding speakers
I made a remote speaker switch so I could set up my 3 favourite pairs of speakers, including a pair I made myself. After doing that I have had so much delight in matching speakers to both song and mood. One day I might find a song more pleasurable on one pair of speakers and another day it might sound better on a different pair. The main point is that there is no perfect, there is just differences
I hope you're okay 🙏
Then there is the Sibelius with one driver.
My favorite speaker of all time is the Ohm F from 1972 and Dale Harder's excellent upgrades to the design.
This is a single-driver speaker with the cone pointed down into a sound damped cabinet. What you hear radiates coherently from the sides of the cone. There is no crossover. I've never heard better soundstage. Modern designs from Ohm use a similar driver plus a conventional super tweeter, so they are two-way. They come close. Similar coherent soundstage effects can be heard from speakers with concentric coaxial drivers such as the KEF Uni-Q which are also very good at point-source coherency.
As always, what is "better" depends on your personal preferences.
I wish I had enough money to buy a pair of Ohm Fs back in the day. I thought they were great sounding speakers. Unfortunately, I still can't afford that kind of stuff.
Headphones come with 1-way drivers. Smaller speakers are usually 2-way. Adding a subwoofer can make it a pseudo 3-way system. Larger speakers often have 3-way or even more. Perhaps a common theme is that the more air you want to move (louder sound) with a neutral undistorted frequency response, the more "ways" you need. FR30 can play louder and deeper than FR5 thanks to more drivers and more volume. In my home office setup I'm currently using KEF LSXII with a subwoofer, and for such very near-field listening, I enjoy the single point source Uni-Q drivers eliminating the comb-effect you easily have with traditional 2-ways or more speakers.
Hats off to you Paul. You're really covering the gamut of audio topics.
High quality 2 ways with high quality subs correctly set up = best of all worlds. :)
Especially when you don't have a "perfect" place to put a bigger speaker.
A 2-way with subs placed in a "perfect" place have advantages compared to a "big speaker".
Big speakers can sound impressive, I have heard many, but they are not designed to be in a normal living-room without acoustic treatment.
2-way speakers together with subs and a bit room-correction is much easier to enjoy, for couples and people that live in apartments.
sub wont change your speaker crossovers
@@EclipseSoundThey aren’t meant to.
2way speakers with a sub really become a 3way.
Panels w subs, World's Best
Ok, correct answer Paul..
Full disclosure,
I don't always completely agree with some of your answers to audio questions, but this time you nailed it. And yet, there will still be dissension!😂
I made my own room treatments. Made a noticeable improvement. 👍
DIY acoustic treatments is far and away the single greatest impact and bang for the buck improvement.
One way. Two way. Three way. Four way. It’s kinda like comparing 4 cylinder 6 cylinder 8 cylinder and 12 cylinder engines. They all have advantages and disadvantages.
My speakers are 2.5 way 😈
2- 12 inch subs 1-8 inch midrange and 1-2 inch soft dome tweeter sounds pretty good.
Listen to whatever speakers that work the best for your ears.
In the 90s I had a Doxa 2x70 power amp and preamp. It was incredible. It was actually from the town I lived in, Kristiansand.
Good Day Paul. The Britisch Speaker manufacturers from the sixties. Made excellent two way speakers, for this reason I listen only to two way speakers from Leak.
How true - one should let one's ears do the listening - if it more than fits the bill sonically for you....who gives a hoot if others say otherwise. Remember, you're the one listening in your lounge/listening space after all. Also, do not underestimate the power of your (we all have 'em) sonic preferences. I feel having that clarity ensures you get what you want and if not, at least allows you the scope to be pleasantly surprised sonically every now & again (i.e. when you hear/are impressed/blown away by what will be your next future purchase/upgrade).
Oh, no! You ruined the surprise! I was expecting some pole dancing at the end!
The main problems with 2-ways :
- the crossover is in the area where the ear is most sensitive, around 2-4kHz.
- the tweeter is operating at the bottom of its operating range where diaphragm excursion (and hence motor distortion) is greatest.
- a small woofer lacks bass capability and usually has poor sensitivity. A large woofer has poor directivity and loss of low-level detail in the midrange due to it's moving mass.
Still, value wise, there is no better option than 2 way in applications with low power requirements.
Going to a 3-way increases, size, complexity and cost dramatically but for low distortion and dynamics at realistic listening levels it is the best choice.
I use 3-ways + active subs
DG (30 years of building speakers)
Although the listed problems (challenges) are real, I believe good solutions do exist since there are some amazing-sounding 2-way speakers on the market today. I believe the big advantages of a properly designed 2-way can outweigh these challenges. An example of such successful 2-way speaker is Kudos Titan 707, which is fullrange (2 bass/midrange drivers). Another Doxa 8.2, which I have myself, also full-range (about 20 Hz in-room response). Both are truly amazing speakers.
Main advantages of a 2-way with 1st order crossover: 1) Excellent coherence between drivers (nearly point-source) 2) More direct and purer sound 3) Excellent imaging due to less phase-shift issues (timing errors).
Besides, also a 3-way speaker will typically have its crossover frequency in the 2-4 kHz area (between midrange & tweeter), so this is not unique to 2-way speakers.
i like your points, i have come so far to end up with a solution close to yours.
2 way+ two stereo subwoofers.
problem was finding 2 way main speakers that was not made to make bass.
but i did find a 2 way that was sealed design, two 5" woofers MTM, 1.1" tweeter in waveguide at 1.5khz crossover. avoiding most of your concerns and gaining sensitivity.
dsp crossover to make it a 3 way with passive subwoofers.
end result: 180hz/1500hz 3 way high output full range to 16hz.
Luckily, my 2-Way's (Klipsch Gen-1 JUBILEEs)...crossover at around the 450hz area..)
Amphion Argon 2 and 3's have the crossover at 1200 hz.
I build 2-ways and 3-ways and I like big. My speakers are FR +woofer and coaxial +woofer. The FR or coaxial is open, on top of the box with the woofer in the box. The woofer fires down onto the floor, with an annular bass vent around the base plate of the open top driver. So the bass comes from nowhere cos you don't hear it directly. And the rest of the whole signal comes from the top point source driver. Open FR yields more top end treble than in the box (by a lot). My coaxil version has an open 10" "guitar" driver on top, with the time aligned cental tweeter (with cutouts in the 10" cone, to breathe).
The best medrange I heard, that also comes from nowhere (and is heard directly). Point source does that. And dipole ambience! The treble is also great (with a very large hole in the soft dome tweeter, to breathe). Vast improvement to the original tweeter. No enclosed cavities! One of my whims. Only the box for the woofer is enclosed. The 10" cone has bass fed into it down to 100 hz. This gives the kick sound like at a venue when you hear that haunting "puh-huh" around the corner from the kit. 😂 Never heard that on a system before. The open 10" cone blends with the bass from the woofer to improve the bass, since the bottom woofer has a really large inductor. Twangy funky sounding bass on the top driver and punch like crazy on the bottom woofer. Great fun hearing.
But the most fun is the med range. So clean compared to a box! So reliably "perfect" voice sound, with air. 🎉 And treble is so soothing even though it's a bit bright. But instead of making it "muffly", I made the treble sound different, not less treble (after trying a lot). Silibant tracks still are, but the silibance sounds better. 😂 Good test for that is "Love is Strong" by the Rolling Stones. 😂
Thanks to Paul for the reply!! While "the perfect speaker" does not exist, I guess pretty close would be a 2-way that ALSO can play deep bass and has powerful dynamics. There actually are a few speakers like that on the market. To my ears, the seemless coherence between drivers, the imaging, the immediacy and "nearness" - this is magical stuff that it is really difficult to achieve with 3-way or 4-way speakers due to the several drivers, steep crossover slopes, resulting phase-shift (timing) issues etc.
Wow that split screen effect had me confused for a second or two, Transporting between two places?
After three decades of experience with two-way speakers, I recently acquired the new Dali Rubicon 6, a 2½+½ speaker, and I must say, the audio quality is exceptional.
I love speakers from China, does Paul have some for sale?
Lets not forget the venerable but not forgotten Boston acoustics mentioned as well by Paul Mcgowan! Thanks Paul..
I still have my A100s I bought new in the 80s. Very good value two way.
I have 2 way and 3 way Boston Accoustics towers. CR95s and A200s. Both amazing.
@@primalscream46 B.A.. Rules !
@@primalscream46 BA really performs above it's price point.
I refoamed the 10" drivers on my A100s and they are still going strong 20 years later.
My first DIY experiments were some voodoo mods that I thought brought them up a notch.
On DIY audio, there was a particularly voodoo process called Enable where you treat the cone with some modpodge to stiffen it and then paint dots of a particular pattern around the edges of the cone. It was described by Bud Purvine, a transformer winding wizzard. No doubt controversial, but I became and advocate.
Also added some blue tack to the stamped basket to reduce ringing and swapped in some better parts in the crossover. With time the speakers did the disappearing act and imaged really well.
I believe it ultimately comes down to expertise. The simpler a design, the easier it is to make it sound "right." When you add more components to a speaker-or to most systems, really-you also introduce additional complexity. That’s not to say that more drivers or added complexity are inherently bad, but they do bring along a host of challenges that need to be managed.
This is why companies often develop a bias toward certain designs. Some may excel at crafting 2-way speakers because their expertise lies in refining that balance between simplicity and performance. Others, however, might specialize in 3-way designs or even larger, more intricate systems. Similarly, there are companies that are absolute masters at creating immersive 7.1 surround setups, while others focus on delivering unparalleled stereo performance.
Ultimately, the expertise behind the design dictates how well the system performs, regardless of whether it’s a minimalistic 2-way speaker or a multi-driver, surround-sound masterpiece.
Perfection is an idea for aiming high. Long ago a customer asked me if I did perfect tile work (I'm a tile man). I said, there is no such thing as perfect tile but there is such a thing as really good tile work. I do really good tile work. The same goes for speakers, I'm sure. I suspect there comes a point in speaker design that factors not a part of the speaker become make or break. That is, a perfect speaker would have to reside in a perfect room being fed a perfect signal.
As far as speakers in a Star Trek universe, I would think that they would be using force fields to move air directly with no actual physical matter involved and no static source point.
Flat out great stuff!
Is the base plate on the tower on the right of screen bent?
Looks like it, right?
Smiley face stand. Defo bent downwards compared to the one on the left.
Ha ! Watch out for that power pole, Paul. It's going to bisect the sound waves- lol. The perfect speaker is the one that makes you smile.
Mr Scott reputedly told Captain Kirk “ye cannae change the laws of physics “
🤪I though it was a split screen😅. Strange seeing him walk from one to the other
Bang Olufsen S60 is a special 3 way speaker? It has an extra filler speaker in it? Because the filter is second order they add a filler driver so they hadn't put some of the driver's in opposite polarity.
Would like to point out a deficiency in the point source contenders in the high-end market. In their 2-way designs the tweeters response gets disrupted by cone excursion at higher levels. A 3-way design in point source with supporting woofers keep cone excursion to a minimum as the midrange driver can be crossed over higher. Imho you stay away from the 2-way designs and find competent 3-way designs to minimize that problem.
I agree with you 100%.
For a start, high pass filters are more critical, particularly in terms of distortion, than low pass filters. That means you have one high pass and not two. And I have seen midrange high pass that are not done right. So yes, there is something to be said for it. But right, it is not always the case.
Which bookshelf speaker is better, a tiny one with a 4 inch woofer, or a slightly bigger speaker with a 7 inch woofer, or a 3 way bookshelf speaker with both woofers.
One of the best sounding speakers I ever owned was a two-way. The worst sounding (supposedly high-end audio) speaker I ever owned was a two-way also. I bought that one based on the manufacturer's reputation without doing an A/B comparison to something I was familiar with. Never again.
Q Paul how big is the sweet-spot (as point source might be misleading) so several people can enjoy the sound stage at once for PSA speakers set up correctly please
4 way speaker is the best high,mid high,low,sub low or tweeter,midbass,woofer and sub low
I’d like to try a 3-way, but the Mrs keeps saying no…
Agree there is no perfect speaker (or system). My strategy re: speakers…an upstairs system with small 2-way bookshelves, and big system in basement with full range three-way speakers. Best of both worlds.
So many speakers. But the catch is, lower production equals higher prices, so many of us do not get to enjoy some or even dream of it. For two ways, I assume that many are speaking of mini monitors or the like where the woofer is not out of proportion to provide good midrange response. Back in the 70s some rock speakers were huge woofers and little tweeters, something is sacrificed.
I had my bass amp downstairs connected via a mixer/recorder to pc, decks, a guitar and a bass. A roland cube 120xl with a single 12" coaxial speaker that was bought just for the bass guitar, but through whatever witchcraft they employed, it could the really high and low notes when playing techno music.
Badly wanted to get a second for stereo, but for unknown reasons they discontinued it within a short time, despite a lot of good reviews.
So, which speakers should I get?
It looks like the base plate on that house right FR20 is struggling.
Is that a load bearing power/data pole?
Is the feet of the right speaker bended?
What is the base bent on that one Aspen speaker?
Why are the front stands of the right speaker bent?
Could you do those transporter sounds again? Was that a modified Star Trek transporter?
Is the front of the base of the speaker on the right bent and/or sagging with the speaker’s weight, or am I imagining it?
Glad to see I’m not the only one wondering that.
What about combined tweeter/woofer. Think tanoy invented them??!!
Is a bookshelf with a sub 2 or 3 way.......?
Erin Audio Corner reviewed the FR5 recently. It was nice to hear that PS audio sent him a pair to review. The speaker scored pretty well yet there were a few issues. One think that is strange is that if the membranes are so light etc. why does the speaker have a sensibility of 81db? Probably just my ignorance.
Audiophile quality Woofers, require stronger Magnets, for superior non-distorting Cone Control + Faster Acceleration speeds. The stronger the magnetics, the more Power is required... hence, less Sensitivity, and less overall output volume. BUT... you will get Much better Bass, with Excellent "Punch"
@@johndough8115 So it was my ignorance. Thanks!
Although sensitivity in dB/W is not the same that sensitivity in dB/2.83V (both at 1 m), both are low. Many times, LPAD resistors are added to the tweeter (which has a light membrane) circuit to match the lower sensitivity of the woofer associated with a baffle step compensation circuit (lowers sensitivity but increases mid-low and low frequencies that have been cancelled partially by the front baffle). Speed, lightness give speed the transducer regardless of the sensitivity (and resistors in the circuit). Some speakers with "higher" sensitivity, don't compensate baffle step or don't go as low; these do very well. Great speakers, great review.
Why the low sensitivity?
Because of the chosen target extension of the box/driver/vent design.
Hoffman's Iron Law;
(pick two)
- Deep Extension
- High Sensitivity
- Compact Size
Adequate extension/output in a small box, ... sensitivity is forsaken.
Agree 100%.
what's going on with the high distortion on the fr5 at 600 Hz? and a bit 2 1/2Hz? what type of surround dumping do you use on the tweeter ?
Brilliant, I’m betting nobody will know what we’re talking about but “beam me up scotty” 😅
I don't know.
When attending hifi shows, I feel young around all the other attendees, ... and I'm in my sixties!
Is the right front speaker stand bent?
Looks U - shaped, but others looks straight.
Probably still sounds the same but still.
I noticed that too. I would want to know if that base is made to take the weight without deforming before I’d buy them
@ - Oh I’d dint even think of that, but I’m sure the speaker’s metal foot can support its own weight. My thought was that it got messed up moving around so much. He’s talking about how they went to all these shows in different cities. Things get bumped and knocked around on the road.
Jay audiolab has the FR5 bookshelf and he favours them immensely against his Magico floorstanders which are like 30x the price.
This is the point I try to make with my friend who's a fellow hifi hobbyist. It's very easy to simply equate cost with improved performance. While it's true to a degree, there are exceptions.Different speaker designs will often have trade offs from eachother, so even a cheaper model can have advantages over much more expensive designs.
At 2:38 you promise that someday, someone will come up perfectly spherical, frictionless speaker.
BTW, that was an old-school physics joke, before all the audiophiles start asking their dealers how spherical or frictionless a speaker is.
There have been truly massless drivers using air that's ionized by a plasma corona for decades.
They're totally worth getting ozone poisoning from!
Yes, but they are not practical and the average person doesn't want to be poisoned by ozon. Until a true practical solution is found I settle for a driver with a little more mass 😃
@@andymill8552 Nelson Pass was quite famously hospitalised from his experimetal attempt.
@@andymill8552 Ozone*
1 tweeter or 2 tweeter
2 way all the way!
$3500 is affordable.... to Paul. Plus stands, electronics, cables, etc.
Norway👌😎
Sorry, Paul but here in Norway we make speakers that are just as good or better than yours🤷♂️ No offence..
Btw, I have 5 way (I would kinda call it 4,5 way since it has bass, midbass, midrange, tweeter and then the extra "super sudio" tweeter) speakers and they make most music sound great.
You just know someone is going to put up a piece of cls in their room and do some studious listening tests lol
sound is a taste .... some like this ,some like that ....
Reviewers often recommend a subwoofer with a two-way design.
I like two subwoofers with two way, three way or more. It's not about bass extension and volume, but placement, sound-stage and a more uniform frequency response. Any speaker that isn't against the wall will have partial cancellation. At 1,08 m (front baffle-wall) the cancellation will be around 80 Hz with lower frequencies that sound louder. Subs can help to fill and compensate that acoustic problem.
I had a system like that for many, many years. While I did like the sound quality, there is also a downside, where, depending on design, the upper bass can be a little too lightweight to realistically convey individual musical instruments like the piano or saxophone or trumpet for example. But they can have fantastic imaging and completely disappear sonically, and sound clean because of a lack of upper bass.
FR5 with a SUB X-OVER at 100 hz
The demands for bass (up to the midbass), midrange and high frequencies are all so different that a 2 way speaker is ALWAYS a compromise! That does not mean that two way can not be good - or even optimum for small rooms or listening distances. A subwoofer can not replace a great woofer in a 3 way system.
A wider baffle needed for large woofers, or a tall one for multiple woofers are also a compromise; Sound-stage and imaging can be worse. Big speakers might also improve with two subwoofers, because the problem is the room acoustics (reflections of the front wall cancel some output around 80 Hz [for 1,08 m]).
A big high output, low distortion multi-way is a comprimise too.
Challenging driver to driver integration, less than optimal imaging soundstaging and dimensionality, ... than a modestly sized stand mount.
The baffle face, very early diffraction components, etc., all minimized by the small physical profile.
Bonus, oftentimes easier to place ideally.
Far too many variables to provide a simple answer to this. Many will have their favourites,but there are pros and cons all over the place for the numerous available options.
MBL Extreme ...LOTS O LOOT
Not only speakers. But there is nothing perfect in this world. At least not for me.
Perfection is only for GOD.
Buying your speakers... first you must have a budget you are looking at. This will also cancel out a lot of speakers immediately both higher and lower priced. Then comes the fun. Actually listening to speakers. Take your time and get to know them. If you do this you will not be constantly looking for the next best thing and more importantly get to do what all this is about... enjoying the amazing music. Been enjoying amazing music now for over 20 years with my speakers and no want to change at all. Pick once and start listening.
My first girlfriend was named Essence.
I always dreamed of a three way 😅
Indeed, but a well-designed three way as mentioned in the video.
What kind of crossover?
@@reno145 are we still talking about the same thing? 😆
Wait too many variables, I would say that a three-way the superior if done correctly. Not to say that a 2 way cannot be done correctly, but we're talking about superior. Beaming, etc
SAFETY NOTICE 😮 : Don't move that pole, the roof will fall in !
Less is not more😊
I prefer 3-way.
Paul, you appear to be out of phase when you walk behind the pole from one side to the other. It just doesn't look right.😆 Actually maybe it's just a phase shift instead.
May be you forgot the most important issue… different tastes 🤭
Paul referred to that a bit with whether one prefers ultimate imaging over deeper bass, etc.
He literally said that.
Let your ears decide. No one sound suits all. Budget is a consideration.
i want full range reproduction so i probably run into compromise to get there. 3 way is the lowest i could go to achieve that.
a 4 way would probably be an even higher compromise.
an* even
@@DarthVader1977 thanks, that sounded more right :)
Obviously a Three-way would be better than a Two-way~
Not necessarily, depends on a lot of things. They both have advantages and disadvantages. One is not better than the other.
@@Prometheus1979 You mean it depends on the third involved?
Yes, there’s a lot more that goes into a 3way then a 2. A well built and timed 3way can be slightly better then a2 way with more detail separation and a little more clarity. But a well built 2way can do the same. It’s really just a matter of preference. I don’t buy speakers based off if they a 2 or 3way. Some people do. Like Paul said there 2way bookshelf is being raved about.
@@Prometheus1979 I think he was talking about a different kind of three-way 🤣
OH NO ! your cables are touching the floor this won't sound good at all .. ( joking , nice setup paul )
For $3500, I can get a speaker like the MoFi SourcePoint 10 that will play louder and with excellent coherence. Sorry Paul, but there are better deals out there in that brutal audio marketplace.
While you may prefer the speaker that plays louder, that speaker (MoFi) does not have the excellent tweeter that PS Audio developed, which is one of the best tweeters out there.
@@nightdrive2646 Agreed. I have a old pair of Infinity Quantum 4s with the excellent EMIT planar tweeter, and they perform superbly.
Your room, my room, their room will dictate to how any pair of speakers will sound. Doesn't matter what brand or size of speaker.
Then there is going to be what type of music you're going to be listening to. Way too many variables to throw up in the air.
That's why PS Audio will give you an in home trial. If they don't suit your room, send them back.
The room makes such a difference to the sound
I can't concentrate on what you are saying. The video feed is messing up my mind. Is that a pole?
Hahaha , I have a solution. You should allways choose the 2 way over the 3 way. Then you realise you need a subwoofer ;)
/yess , its obvious trolling but kinda showcase the problem/
Main problem of small and simple speakers is not that they cannot produce low/high harmonics, It is not heard because due to size which corresponds to length of middle range waves they have characteristic and not enough controlled mid resonances. It is like big and small drum - while all are produced, we always hear most effective resonance
@@Mikexception a 2 way speaker and a sub is a 3 way system. Just to point out the very obvious.
I have more than once sat at a dealership and listened to dirt expensive, exotic speaker systems that sound like crap.
I early on lost all respect for that industry. BS talk all over the place.
3 way is better