I have been reading Matt’s book in lockstep with this series and I’m so grateful for all of the little extra nuggets and context provided. Thanks to Matt, John, and the entire MS crew for putting forth this important work-and I lot of work it is.
One of my favorite talks ever as a Mormon was “God is the Gardener.” I had no idea its author was this kind of person. Feels oddly comforting that I can still look back on part of my Mormon experience with some justified fondness.
Love, love, love these series with Dr Matt Harris. He has an amazing talent at recalling so much information and telling them in a way that is captivating despite the length of each session. Thank you so much! ❤
There’s a reason tscc doesn’t want personal diaries made public….because a much more accurate account of what happened is contained therein and the mythology fizzles out. Long live the diaries for us and future generations
I look forward to his book about this great man, Hugh Brown. This is all new to me pretty much. I did not grow up in church culture nor did I live in it. Now I live in the mountains of Utah, and that is a different experience in itself.
Welcome to Utah. I was an Air Force brat, living all over the US and parents from Logan. Just love the mountains and some of the Utah culture until the last few years. Not perfect for sure, but it is home.
The Church needs this transparent history so badly. The current orthodoxy will not care, but upcoming generations will have it, just as today’s leaders have been forced to acknowledge yesteryear’s “anti-Mormon literature” through the GTEs. It is critical for members to understand the decision and policy making processes of the senior leaders, as it has persisted to today.
This whole series has been fascinating, particularly because I joined the church just prior to the priesthood being offered to all men. As a new convert, I accepted that this was revelation, and it was exciting. Now, I know how the sausage was made, and it's appalling. I also got sucked into the Benson/Skousen stuff because I trusted that an apostle was telling us what we needed to hear. This also wasn't true, as it turned out. I feel so duped and foolish.
They changed a policy - not a doctrine - according to David O. McKay. I think it's more disturbing that the inspiration for the "unanimous" agreement to make the change under Kimball's presidency came not from an immediate divine source but from a comprehensive reading of the historical moment. Where is the prophet's intercession there - I ask? Watch the next podcast if you haven't, yet. In sympathetic incredulity, Curt
I love hearing their names without the pointless middle initial. Anyone know why that became tradition in Mormonism in the first place? Why middle initials for everyone?
I've read the book by Dr. Harris. It's great. But these discussions add so much information. I wish a lot of this information was in the book. From what I've read, McMurrin was friendly toward the Church. He would defend the Church at times, even though he wasn't a TBM.
The more we learn about these Prophets, Seers and Revelators…always keep in mind that they claim to be “special witnesses” of Jesus Christ and claim to be his authorized representatives on earth. SMH 😞. IMO, totally shameful!
Canadian here, listening to the clip of Benson was so similar to listening to Trump. Wow! Scary to hear an apostle speak with such racist vitriol! I’m surprised he didn’t say that there are cats and dogs being eaten!!😮
MSP Have you done a podcast that touches on the affects of Reagan's presidency on the Church? I know of a little and suspect a lot of how the political co-allegiance between Church leadership and Reagan specifically but his adminstration generally played out in a backlash to President Kimball's tenure.
I’ve shed tears twice while listening to this series with Matt Harris, once when Lowell Bennion was fired from his institute position and not told why (definitely brought up some personal experiences at work for me) and now listening to this episode with Hugh B Brown weeping when he is forced by Harold B Lee to sign the 1969 Quorum of the Twelve statement. I just cannot even imagine the anguish after years of trying to fight for something he felt was just. I had not ever heard of these men when I started this series, and now I am incredibly grateful I know about these courageous men. As always, thank you Matt Harris for your outstanding work!
I imagine for black TBM's the lifting of the ban was a welcome thing and seen as some kind of deliverance an act of god in their favor. However the church is a hodge podge of often conflicting doctrines from questionable origins and things made up by Joseph Smith on the spot to solve personal problems for him. To me anyone getting the full priesthood and temple privileges in the end is a nothing sandwich. Something better was always available elsewhere.
I would suggest the title of the book would be more accurate as "Third Class . . .". Non-American "Whites" - for brevity - have always been the second-class in the Church. I point to the experiences of the LDS Canadians in this saga immediately and then beyond to all the animosity in Causcasoid cultured missions staffed by holier-than-thou American missionaries around the world, and to church units being frog-marched into good order around the globe by GA's parachuting in from time to time from Heaven-on-Earth-central - Zion, Good Old USA. I'll never forget all the lessons I learned related to this in the American bi-centennial year. How's that Divinely-inspired Constitution working out for them now? Tangentially, how less relevant were Benson's politicized devotional remarks to non-American BYU students in attendance - and Brown's the following week even though they were a rebuttal. All that being vented, I could never conceive of a self-respecting "Black" person joining the Church let-alone staying in the Church. I understand certain cultural attractions if one grew up in a certain situation, but wasn't that the basis of Uncle Tom's Cabin as well?
President McKay sent Dr. McMurrin to Pennsylvania to make Mormons look smart and to avoid detectable lies and embarrassing answers that would be said by the apostles (well maybe not Brown, but could you imagine what Delbert Shipley would say?).
The cognitive dissonance and irony of Ezra Benson - that audio clip outraged me as a 'never Mormon'. I am sadly saddened that there are any people of African ancestry that would seek salvation in the LDS God and religion.
I lived through all this on the inside of right extremism. One thing I observed is that right wing people consistently overstep their boundaries are militant and burn bridges. Dishonesty to serve their ideas is also a constant tool. They deliberately distort reality hide things to give themselves unwarranted believability. I grew up among such people and they are willing to do devious things spread their ideas.
...funny, it was not the right wingers that let their cities burn, let homelessness abound, violent rioters, anti-constitutionalists, Marxists and communist ideologies. It was the radical left. I am an independent so I can see the worst of both extremes. Guess it is just looking at things from a different perspectives.
Kudos to Matt Harris for doing all the research. I don't think I can listen to any more, unfortunately. The more I see behind the curtain, the less interesting Mormonism is to me. These are pathetic men who are trying to build their own imaginary empires.
I have been reading Matt’s book in lockstep with this series and I’m so grateful for all of the little extra nuggets and context provided. Thanks to Matt, John, and the entire MS crew for putting forth this important work-and I lot of work it is.
Hey Snazzy, love your content as well, good to see you here!
One of my favorite talks ever as a Mormon was “God is the Gardener.” I had no idea its author was this kind of person. Feels oddly comforting that I can still look back on part of my Mormon experience with some justified fondness.
These are church leaders I revered and loved, now to learn it was politics and racism. Makes me ill. I was so brainwashed. 😢
I feel the same. I have learnt more about the church since I left then when I was in.
I absolutely love when you have Doctor Harris on your channel. Great Job as always John. Much Respect.
Love, love, love these series with Dr Matt Harris. He has an amazing talent at recalling so much information and telling them in a way that is captivating despite the length of each session.
Thank you so much! ❤
There’s a reason tscc doesn’t want personal diaries made public….because a much more accurate account of what happened is contained therein and the mythology fizzles out. Long live the diaries for us and future generations
I look forward to his book about this great man, Hugh Brown. This is all new to me pretty much. I did not grow up in church culture nor did I live in it. Now I live in the mountains of Utah, and that is a different experience in itself.
Welcome to Utah. I was an Air Force brat, living all over the US and parents from Logan. Just love the mountains and some of the Utah culture until the last few years. Not perfect for sure, but it is home.
Wow, Hugh B. Brown was rad! Great episode!
Thanks!
I read this book this last weekend. Wow! Thanks for writing this Matt. It was incredible.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Thanks for you kind words. I'm glad you liked the book!
LOVE this series!! Thanks John for doing this series with the amazing Dr. Matt Harris!!
Glad you enjoy it!
The Church needs this transparent history so badly. The current orthodoxy will not care, but upcoming generations will have it, just as today’s leaders have been forced to acknowledge yesteryear’s “anti-Mormon literature” through the GTEs.
It is critical for members to understand the decision and policy making processes of the senior leaders, as it has persisted to today.
Thanks for all your work John!
Thanks for listening
I have always held a soft spot for Hugh Brown. He came to Nauvoo to our seminary graduation to give us our diplomas.
This story is literally bonkers.
The historical drama of the church presidency and Q12 is absolutely fascinating.
Excellent.
And I love that Dr Harris doesn’t use all the leaders’ *initials* that are the ugh-automatic way they’re always referred to
Never Mormon but I look forward to new episodes in this series, no doubt! ❤
This whole series has been fascinating, particularly because I joined the church just prior to the priesthood being offered to all men. As a new convert, I accepted that this was revelation, and it was exciting. Now, I know how the sausage was made, and it's appalling. I also got sucked into the Benson/Skousen stuff because I trusted that an apostle was telling us what we needed to hear. This also wasn't true, as it turned out. I feel so duped and foolish.
Such a fascinating piece of history! Love Matt Harris!
Important LDS history wonderfully told by Matt Harris. Thank you for teaching about Hugh Brown, a great leader and man.
Our pleasure!
Loving this history and context provided by Dr Harris!
thanks for this episode, Benson signed my mission call, glad to know what a non-christian he was.
I LOVE this series! Thank you John and Matt! 🙏🏼🖤
Let's remember Hugh B. Brown's name, for many, many generations to come. His name should be more significant than any LDS "prophet."
Great series. Thanks to Matt and John for this.
Our pleasure!
If you feel you have to and can fight to convince a prophet to change doctrine , doesn't that mean you know they're not a prophet that speaks for god?
They changed a policy - not a doctrine - according to David O. McKay. I think it's more disturbing that the inspiration for the "unanimous" agreement to make the change under Kimball's presidency came not from an immediate divine source but from a comprehensive reading of the historical moment. Where is the prophet's intercession there - I ask? Watch the next podcast if you haven't, yet. In sympathetic incredulity, Curt
I think no Mormon prophet has misunderstood the message of the Book of Mormon more than Ezra Benson.
Brown was an absolute G. It's too bad Packer, Clark, and friends took the Church in a very right wing, authoritarian direction.
"And was he an apostle at the time, or was he president of the church?"
The president of the church IS an apostle.
Latter Day apartheid
Wonderful series!
I'm so delighted to find out there was at least one real prophet among all the pretenders. He was like a modern Jeremiah.
I love hearing their names without the pointless middle initial.
Anyone know why that became tradition in Mormonism in the first place? Why middle initials for everyone?
It makes them feel important.
That’s Funny. I never thought about that before. Being a female born into the church I do not have a middle name. 😂
I think it’s partly necessity partly importance. We had three “prophets” with the name Joseph Smith, after all.
well done
I've read the book by Dr. Harris. It's great. But these discussions add so much information. I wish a lot of this information was in the book.
From what I've read, McMurrin was friendly toward the Church. He would defend the Church at times, even though he wasn't a TBM.
Amazing ❤❤❤
I want this guest back again to tell about J Reuben Clark
The more we learn about these Prophets, Seers and Revelators…always keep in mind that they claim to be “special witnesses” of Jesus Christ and claim to be his authorized representatives on earth. SMH 😞. IMO, totally shameful!
If I understand this correctly revelations are constitutional amendments and policies are akin to enacting laws. ?
Policy is like an executive order.
Canadian here, listening to the clip of Benson was so similar to listening to Trump. Wow!
Scary to hear an apostle speak with such racist vitriol! I’m surprised he didn’t say that there are cats and dogs being eaten!!😮
Quick poll: who is your favorite GA?
A) Hugh B Brown
B) B H Roberts
C) other
MSP Have you done a podcast that touches on the affects of Reagan's presidency on the Church? I know of a little and suspect a lot of how the political co-allegiance between Church leadership and Reagan specifically but his adminstration generally played out in a backlash to President Kimball's tenure.
Where does "The Church and the Negro" by Lund fall into all of this?
I’ve shed tears twice while listening to this series with Matt Harris, once when Lowell Bennion was fired from his institute position and not told why (definitely brought up some personal experiences at work for me) and now listening to this episode with Hugh B Brown weeping when he is forced by Harold B Lee to sign the 1969 Quorum of the Twelve statement. I just cannot even imagine the anguish after years of trying to fight for something he felt was just. I had not ever heard of these men when I started this series, and now I am incredibly grateful I know about these courageous men. As always, thank you Matt Harris for your outstanding work!
Obert C Tanner’s mother Annie Clark wrote a wonderful autobiography about her experiences in polygamy.
Love Hugh B Brown. I wish his stance was the direction of church would have gone.
I imagine for black TBM's the lifting of the ban was a welcome thing and seen as some kind of deliverance an act of god in their favor. However the church is a hodge podge of often conflicting doctrines from questionable origins and things made up by Joseph Smith on the spot to solve personal problems for him. To me anyone getting the full priesthood and temple privileges in the end is a nothing sandwich. Something better was always available elsewhere.
Govenor of Utah was Rampton, Calvin.
I would suggest the title of the book would be more accurate as "Third Class . . .". Non-American "Whites" - for brevity - have always been the second-class in the Church. I point to the experiences of the LDS Canadians in this saga immediately and then beyond to all the animosity in Causcasoid cultured missions staffed by holier-than-thou American missionaries around the world, and to church units being frog-marched into good order around the globe by GA's parachuting in from time to time from Heaven-on-Earth-central - Zion, Good Old USA. I'll never forget all the lessons I learned related to this in the American bi-centennial year. How's that Divinely-inspired Constitution working out for them now? Tangentially, how less relevant were Benson's politicized devotional remarks to non-American BYU students in attendance - and Brown's the following week even though they were a rebuttal. All that being vented, I could never conceive of a self-respecting "Black" person joining the Church let-alone staying in the Church. I understand certain cultural attractions if one grew up in a certain situation, but wasn't that the basis of Uncle Tom's Cabin as well?
Lol! Having the support of the Nazis and the KKK used to be the kiss of death to a serious candidate in the U.S. How things have changed. 💔
President McKay sent Dr. McMurrin to Pennsylvania to make Mormons look smart and to avoid detectable lies and embarrassing answers that would be said by the apostles (well maybe not Brown, but could you imagine what Delbert Shipley would say?).
The cognitive dissonance and irony of Ezra Benson - that audio clip outraged me as a 'never Mormon'. I am sadly saddened that there are any people of African ancestry that would seek salvation in the LDS God and religion.
Zina Card Brown is the granddaughter of Zina Huntington wife to Joseph Smith and Brigam You g all the while being legally married to Henry Jacobs
I lived through all this on the inside of right extremism. One thing I observed is that right wing people consistently overstep their boundaries are militant and burn bridges. Dishonesty to serve their ideas is also a constant tool. They deliberately distort reality hide things to give themselves unwarranted believability. I grew up among such people and they are willing to do devious things spread their ideas.
...funny, it was not the right wingers that let their cities burn, let homelessness abound, violent rioters, anti-constitutionalists, Marxists and communist ideologies. It was the radical left. I am an independent so I can see the worst of both extremes. Guess it is just looking at things from a different perspectives.
Kudos to Matt Harris for doing all the research.
I don't think I can listen to any more, unfortunately. The more I see behind the curtain, the less interesting Mormonism is to me. These are pathetic men who are trying to build their own imaginary empires.
If you believe in the priesthood and have seen miracles, how do you bring inner harmony when learning the truth?
1:31:44 this is insane! I can’t believe this is supposed to be a “devotional”
Thanks!
Thanks!