The EQ scam exposed. Did you fall for it? (Part 1)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 พ.ค. 2024
- My website: www.apmastering.com
There is a lot of marketing hype around EQ plugins sounding different, with different flavours and characters. But is this really true? If you know how to use one full featured digital EQ, do you really need a whole bunch of different analogue modelling EQs for different kinds of instruments? Or is one single digital EQ enough?
See this update video for quantified results with more plugins: th-cam.com/video/h9OsUSXKiDg/w-d-xo.html
i can't stress enough, if graphic designers on Reaper had created some cool graphics plugins maybe today most of producers will use reaper ahahah
100%. However, reaper's workflow is aimed at people who know what they are doing. Dont forget, many people who make music may not be that technical which is why software like fruity loops really did well
@@APMastering the reason why I switched to FL because as producer they give all you Need and more
exactly. Reaper is actually the best DAW for mastering and mixing by quite a wide margin but for midi and composition, FL is probably actually cooler tbh
@@APMastering I Learned quite a bit from Mike Senior, he was using Reaper and the tool that was on there was mind blowing very simple and effective. Forget the pretty interface I need that LOL.
@@rusj5273 reaper has more than 100 built in plugins bundled with it, some of which are very good but all have ugly interfaces
As a plugin developer (who does it as a hobby) I can say that if different EQ developers used the same filter algorithm, they would sound the same. Different digital EQs may sound different if they use different filter types (FIR, IIR, State variable), but most of them probably use one of those types, because of it's advantages (I'm not sure which one, but you can probably find that information somewhere). Analog emulations do sound similar in some cases, because most of the analog gear probably uses those same algorithms, but the circuit components have some kind of a "flavour". They can't have very precise values in most cases or maybe a component is broken or really old, so it produces a different sound. There are two ways of doing analog emulations. The first one is to look at the scematic or the actual gear and emulate all of the individual components. The second way is to record an impulse or frequency responce of the gear and create a plugin which has the same responce (usually it's not 100% perfect, but it's really close). Those plugins will sound different from your stock EQ. They will have their "flavour", because they are going to sound like analog gear. Some people are really into that analog sound and that's why they buy those plugins. If you want to simply produce music and don't care about such small differences, do it! You don't need to make conspiracy theories up, just use the EQ you like and that's it. If analog emulations are not for you, just don't use them.
Hey, I appreciate your comment. There's a few things to sort out here.
Firstly, I demonstrate right in this video that an analog emulation EQ (by waves, attempting to emulate a Neve) is identical to fabfilter in terms of the bells, and later in the video I discuss the shelves.
I'm aware of the different filter design approaches as I also code and many years ago I wrote my university thesis on a type of DSP. I also have built analog EQ by hand with a soldering iron. So I understand both analog and digital principles when it comes to EQ, and how a value could be off, or an electrolytic cap could have leaked etc and then then values are slightly wrong.
Also I don't know where you think I'm saying that all developers use the same code. I know for a fact that many developers DO use libraries, you'll probably know that yourself. Maybe you work with the JUICE framework to do your plugs? But lets assume every developer reinvents the wheel and uses zero libraries, well, whether you achieve equalisation through analog, digital or even acoustic means, there is an underlying reality to the process. Remember, stuff which we take for granted as digital computer based stuff like FFTs are not computer age things mathematically. The FFT predates computers by quite a margin seeing as Joseph Fourier was born in 1768. The general principles and effects of EQ are old. No matter how you implement them, they are an ABSTRACT theoretical ideal and not a format dependent ideal.
This has the result that, regardless of your approach, you will more or less reach the same result (as I demonstrate here with bells), or as I demonstrate with shelves, if you do not shoot for the theoretical optimum but use IRs, you end up with some kind of weird wonky shelf which is influenced by your measuring equipment, and i the case of the neve, even influenced by the position of the desk in the room due to electrical interference, but even then you can easily get the delta to be extremely quiet, so even with IR based processing there isn't a different flavour but merely a different EQ shape, which you can easily recreate with fabfilter or another good EQ.
I LP EQ at the end, but I'm guessing you didn't watch that far.
some typos, should be JUCE etc, you get the idea
"response" not "responce".
@@foruncolo74 huh?
answering to @maaudioplugins that keep writing "respomce" instead of "response" 🙂
Whilst you're right about the EQ section of a channel strip emulation plugin, I think what people mean when they're talking about analog warmth in that context is the saturation introduced by another section( that is usually switched on by default)
100% agree. however, I wanted to demonstrate that the EQ itself is not the analog vibe monster people think it is. 100% agree the type and amount of distortion (and hiss, and other nonlinearities) will be a much more meaningful influence on the sound in the direction of "analogue".
@@APMastering That's fair enough! The other thought I had was demonstrating what the plugins are doing visually via Bertom EQ analyser or Plugin Doctor if you have it might be a good way to visually show they are doing much the same thing.
@@pelennorDSP yeah this is a good idea. i could do this in another video. thanks for the tip!
Analog can have desired artifacts, often times regarded as imperfections...
Analog can be less analytical and considerated more "musical". And with no or less listening fatigue.
@@michelvondenhoff9673 id love to see proof of the claims in your second paragraph
for a long time i thought it was so weird there were so many different EQs, compressors, reverbs, etc. glad to know im not going bonkers
hold on, difference between eq's is weird, but not all compressors/limiters/reverbs work the same
@@sumbodee3 yes im aware of that, but since theres basically a metric fuckton of them out there nowadays i personally feel theres bound to be some form of repetition among some. i could still be wrong tho
Me too!
The sound is of course the most important thing, but:
for me it's important that a plugin or instrument also offers eyecandy, so
that I'm inspired to work on it for hours.
Nowadays we buy instruments and effects online and usually even without packaging and printed instructions.
One click and it ends up in our virtual 19-inch rack.
For me, that has zero soul and zero feeling for the value of the "devices".
I valued a real device much more and usually spend more time with it.
If the look of a plugin isn't nice, I don't want to work with it for long.
This is a bold admission on the internet, and you’re likely to get hate, but you’re absolutely right.
I have a certain muscle memory involved with my 1176, 2a, and API eq, among others. I remember 20 years ago, manually inputting values on the stock plugins of my first PC… it was not inspiring at all.
The UI guides the way a person mixes, and nobody can deny that. I see a good-looking Neve emulation and I know what to do. The muscle memory kicks in.
I have a big window in my studio and a lava lamp on my desk. One arguably reduces sound quality, and the other does absolutely nothing. If being able to look outside and experience actual sunlight helps me mix for longer, it’s worth it.
I don’t think plugin graphics are any different in this respect.
I would agree to this. I'm well aware that a computer can emulate ANY analog signal. But I sill love using analog gear simply because of the way it looks and the feel. But if you blindfolded me, I wouldn't know what "plugin" I was listening to, or the difference between a Juno 60 synth or the Roland emulation.
People would probably be a lot happier if they were comfortable and accepting of these apparent cognitive dissonances.
Yep. The plugins may be the same in certain respects. But still... the interfaces, slewing of controls, colors, contrast, tech support etc. ... can make a difference to the user overall.
For sure... if I picked a desert island plugin... I could narrow it down to one. But since I can own a few different ones, I can get plugins which allow me to have some varied approaches of my choosing. (Serendipity is still a thing.)
And with the modeling capabilities that some companies are implementing... some plugins are definitely worth the attention. For me... GUI's make a big difference, as to how I get from point A to B. It may mostly be a matter of preference... but it is nice to have 'options'.
Reaeq has major cramping issues, so i won't use that
curious what you think of the outboard eq's like the waves Pultec and VEQ4 for example, and if there are similar qualities [or lack there of] in the modelling between different plugins. I hear a difference for sure, but I might as you state, being manipulated by the fancy graphics.
stay tuned for my next vid on this topic!
Does this apply to clippers? I've been using Sir Standard Clip and it's probably the best $18 I've ever spent on a plugin (got a newsletter discount). But I'm curious to try Gold Clip. Ryan seems like a cool dude and also in Philly so I might buy it anyway to support
Bro, standard clip is top notch despite the price
One argument for using an analog modeled EQ over something like fabfilter pro Q3 is the exact effect you mentioned on how sight effects our hearing. There’s no spectrum analyzer built into most of those so you have to rely on your ears instead of noticing all the visible peaks which may or may not need addressing.
yeah that and its crazy price.
@@planetclay well, you can always set sail to the high seas...
Why does my music suck...? It must be the samples/instruments - it must be the plug-ins - it must be my mixing - it must be my mastering... Maybe it's your composition/arrangement? No, no, no :)
Alain! So glad to have stumbled upon your channel, l’m a big fan of your work. Quick question: how to save a kick that only has the click at the front and a boomy sub tail, but without a solid punchy body? Or is it not savable at all except putting it in a sampler and messing around with its pitch envelope? This is sth I’ve been struggling for a long long time, I just find it difficult to hear that oomph right after the initial click
You could try Waves RBass. It’s a bass generator and it can create a note based on what you select. Helps give the bass drums (and snares) have more body without using samples.
Either find a different sample if it's sample based, or try a different drum or recording setup if it's live.
Doesn't help you for existing projects but it's better to have the right sound to begin with.
Try transient shaper!
Subscribed!
I have a question. The delta is very low in those examples but it's still audible, if you were using lets say 40 EQs in a project, wouldn't they add up until the difference is noticeable?
Cheers!
there's so many variables there, but the delta is the difference between one signal and another... that could just be random nonsense and probably isnt "magic analogue warmth spice". So probably not. But in some extreme scenario, maybe. But even in the extreme scenario, you can better control this unspecified noise/distortion if you use a specific plugin.
@@APMastering That makes sense. It'd be nice to see a video of your favorite saturation plugins :). cheers!
You just EARNED my subscription. I've been on this mission for a long time. So much of my time wasted by plugin hype in the era that I started just to learn I can get by with stock EQ. I use pro-q 3 just because interface and linear phase, but I could've saved myself so much heartache so long ago with this knowledge.
If you are used to a specific tool, once you change it, the results might change as well. But there is no 'magic sauce' indeed.
i tested TDR nova for the first time, i'm astonished how polished the plugin it is, and immediately purchase the GE version, and its really worth for how advance this plugin can be.
TDR Nova is a waste of money if your DAW already ships with a nice Dynamic EQ... Cubase, Digital Performer, and others. You have to make sure you are not wasting money on redundant plug-ins. Otherwise, you haven't paid attention to what this video is talkign about. IMO, I think he should have mentioned that some DAWs do render some of these third party plug-ins largely redundant, and people need to make sure they do a proper comparison and make sure what they are buying is something they /actually/ need.
There are lots of hobbyists in the market now who are buying things simply because they are popular and have seen other creators or users pushing it.
DAWs, plug-ins, synths, virtual instruments, etc. This is happening everywhere.
Does this also apply to compression, or is this more complicated? What about reverb? I'd appreciate your opinion on this
its more complex with compression..., similar story but less dramatic. reverb is much more varied and id say its worth having a few different ones, but theres a bunch of great free ones like the TAL one for example.
It very much depends.
This video is just saying that these EQs are the same.
You can definitely find EQs that are not the same. Curcuit modelling / neural network based filters.
Comoressors all have different behaviour. Mostly in the the processing they do to the input sidechain that the compressor reacts to, as well as tubes / valves / diodes / transfomers if it's that kind of plugin.
I get the point, i also watched a video called “why i deleted 80% of my plug-ins”-ish and i agree we don’t have to be plug-in addicts. I only started my journey on mixing, but i felt a difference on a Manley massive passive plug in when i put it in stereo out or i think some of you call it master bus? What is that it seperates from other eqs? It is not just the knobs. Could you do a comparison video on it?
I can't speak for that exact plugin but a lot of developers have an across the board gain boost in their plugins, to trick you into thinking it sounds better (when in reality it's just a dB or two louder).
You could try gain staging and see if the delta remains the same with levels are exactly the same.
@@JoshWiniberg i have tried it, but the switch from another mastering EQ vs Manley felt like when i switch from transistor amp to tube amp. I agree with the topic of not have to have lots of plug-ins and that is kind of a scam, but i can't help not to say with Manley, i love Manley massive passive 🔥
@@hobbygrg-eudaimoniastudio Definitely, it's a really musical sounding EQ. Not sure how much of that is modelling and how much is just the baked in EQ curves but it does get good results
Everything you said in this video is objectively correct, but I still think there is something good to be said about these products.
I think most people that work professionally in the audio industry don't use these tools "because i need a neve in my computer ". It's more about getting results fast with stuff we are familiar with.
If you know a how a Helios EQ sounds on guitars, it will take you 10 seconds to get a good sound. Same thing with a Pultec on bass, etc etc.
You can obviously recreate the exact same sound with a FFPQ3 or a Nova and save yourself 30-60$ on each analog EQ.
Heck you could even recreate the saturation curve/behavior with saturn. With a good ear and these 2 plugins you could recreate ANY analog EQ plugin.
But
I don't think many of us have the time to recreate all of those curves. I bet you could recreate the whole catalog of waves and UAD on fabfilter. Find out the Q and slope of each bell/shelf/Filter of your preferred analog eq. save those settings on a preset and repeat for all other modeled EQs. You'd save hundreds of dollars, but do you have time to do that? Time to do it on every single mix?
Even the Kirchoff EQ, which I love because it has all of the things i mentioned above, isn't necessarily the one stop shop for EQ (it gets pretty close tho). simply because its faster for most people to get a good sound using a good UI.
If you like to work fast, work with your ears and not your eyes, and a snake oil plugin lets you work faster, then thats THE BEST plugin you can use.
If you want full precision and control, have ample time in your hands, and you can honestly say that your ears are not affected by what you see, then go for a FF or Nova or Kirchoff.
I know what i'd choose personally idk about yall.
i own and love the Kirchoff EQ..oddly enough i rarely use it. but i enjoyed acquiring it at an incredible price....and just knowing that it's there and not FabFilter EQ because it's NEVER at an incredible price.
@captainshuffle What you say, however, does not justify the price at which they are sold. Plugins are just codes, they have no power, they have no physical materials, they have no circuitry, and they have no material costs. So why exaggerate with prices that exceed hundreds of dollars, euros?
@@AforismiDAutoreAD Somebody had to write those codes. Things are worth whatever they are worth to you. I like being able to toss 40 1176s across my tracks if that’s what is needed. Being able to finish a mix in an hour and get paid is worth the price of admission to me; it may not be for you, and that’s okay.
I’ve made enough money in time saved using analog-modeled plugins that the cost is justified for me. Workflow is king. I mixed for years using stock plugins, and I’ll never hate.
There are bundles, there are sales… I have never paid full price for a UAD plugin. Just gotta know when to pull the trigger. I’m happy with my investments.
@@AforismiDAutoreAD😅 unfortunately you're not correct there.
He didnt show any in the video, but there are plenty of 'circuit modelled' vsts.
He probably didn't show them because tney cost a lot more.
These plugins run emulations of electrical circuits.
They are an entire voltage simulation and the output you get comes from the real time simulation of different components sending voltage through each other.
Watch the audio plugin development confrence and you will get an idea of what goes into good plugins.
This video was a bit misleading.
He showed like one cheap ancient waves 'analog' eq lol.
@@Joshua_Griffin In my opinion, a plugin cannot cost more than hundreds of dollars. Since it has no material production costs, it does not use wires and circuits, no implementation of transformers and transistors, no power cables, no use of valves (tube). Although there is a cost for production, the same cost will be spread over the number of consumers who purchase it. Once the code has been written there is not a serial reproduction chain, but just a copy of it. If you think that for example a compressor has factory costs and serial production costs then you will understand that there is a huge difference. A plugin that costs from 150 to 300 dollars means playing dirty to the detriment of the consumer, and spending 150 to 300 dollars for a plugin is not worth it, at this point it is better to buy hardware. Some plugin houses have understood this, like Waves (and lately it is the policy that UAD is also adopting), otherwise don't be fooled.
for eq's i will definitely agree, dynamics also in a way but having to combine/stack multiple compressors to get the same attack/release curves is tedious. Some things just do what you want with a few turns of a knob, and that's just handy. On the other hand, everything that imparts a very obvious alteration to sound, such as distortion, coloured delays, all that sound mangling stuff, there are vast differences which are very audible and there it does make sense to have options
If I understand it the same is in hardware plugins ?
So, would you make the same argument for other forms of audio processing… such as a limiter or compressor? Or is this strictly for EQ purposes?
similar for EQ but its more difficult to prove. limiter no. most limiters sound horrible. theres only a few good ones
Those are null tests using 4 eq's that don't introduce any harmonic content whatsoever (the Schepes does if you use the drive function). Try to null test with an eq emulation that generates harmonic distortion.
which EQ plugin would you suggest as your best example of something which generates harmonic distortion as a direct product of its EQ? IE, there is -inf delta with flat EQ, and then boosting 1k 6db yields significant THD, such that you can null the EQ and hear only the harmonics? I mean, I'm sure there are such EQs, I could easily code one myself in an afternoon, but the distortion would not be a direct product of the EQ but rather an additional saturation that increased with gain, and I'm not aware of any that exhibit this behaviour.
@@APMasteringI'm nosing in here, but I believe Wavesfactory spectre and fabfilter Volcano do this. Though they're not analog models, they were made specifically to do this.
@@jeremylarue4503 AFAIK volcano just has additional saturation built in but I dont know the spectre one, im downloading it now and will have a look, thanks for your input
@jeremylarue4503 OK, I've had a play with it and it's a REALLY cool plugin. I like it. But it's not actually even an EQ. It's essentially a filter bank multiband distortion which is intended to be used in parallel. The saturation seems to be a discrete process unrelated to the EQ. What I'm hearing is, when on 100% wet, a "bell" is not a bell but a band pass filter and the gain is not the gain of the bell but the overall level of the filtered signal which is sent into the selected distortion processing. It's something I do all the time in my own music with a bunch of plugins and filters.... I guess there are a few things which do this already in one plugin like izotope trash or whatever, but this is the first time I've seen it depicted as a boost only EQ. Nice one.
@@APMastering Thanks for the explanation.
I have many options of various EQ's to choose from, but 95% of the time, I use Fab Filter because it's so versatile and fast. And let's face it, it can replicate pretty much any EQ and the difference where it can't is absolutely irrelevant.
I say the same about Kirchhoff. The whole point of the video was that it virtually doesn’t matter which eq you use. The differences practically all lie in the workflow
@@alchemistrpm82 Agree with the caveat is that there is at the same price as good stuff, some real shit out there to be avoided like plague.
Mmmmm can those other plugins work on midside or be used as a dynamic eq ?
you can use any EQ in mid side if you have an MS encoder plugin and adequate routing. You can do this right out of the box in reaper for example.
You can also do dynamic EQ with any EQ using a compressor or gate and adequate routing, but it is not practical. But i might make a video for fun showing how you can do it.
Anyway, the crappy plugins with no features are not going to do more advanced features, which I why I say in the video you need one decent EQ, not that any crappy EQ will do.
@@APMastering Convenience is important. That neve console you used , what about the harmonic distortion ? If I believe it’s powered by a preamp. When you run it through plugin doctor you can see it. I don’t disagree with your premise though, their is just more to it.
@@Todzuum That's why I recommended Nova in this video because its a good plugin that does both dynamic EQ and MS for free.
IMHO harmonic distortion is a separate process. This is why many waves plugins have additional mystery distortion, but you can have another instance and it phase cancels pretty much 100% and it is unrelated to the actual EQ.
I have way too many plugins. I got them “by hook or by crook” when i started recording. Now almost all of them are ‘naping’ while still taking lots of memory on computer. Why? Because, after trying the functions and sounds, i just go to plugins that i am familiar and comfortable with (parameters, options, sound, design); and it is just a very small portion of what i have: Nomad, Blue Cat, TRS, Analog Obsession … Yes, getting plugins is an obsession and obsessions are not healthy, good.
I like the sound of my Pre Amp and the EQ section, It has a raw sound I can't get by Plugins. I think that's more than enough for what I'm trying to achieve with vocals, other then that no one going to tell the difference on your plugins your using anyways, I will say that RX Izotope is a godsend for cleaning up poor recordings or cheap microphones. I hear some Pros say to stuck with the plugins that you love and know like the back of your hand that way you would need other marketing plugins. Honestly the only thing that we need in a plugin is the options and flexibility so we don't have to use another plugin there's other tracks that need to be worked on also CPU standpoint. I Love Your/The True. Keep The Good News Coming.
Totally agree on nearly everything....Most of the time, even if it's an analog, people won't notice a difference in whatever medium they're using to listen to it.
That said, I do like having a Pultec to get those dips/curves quickly--even if you can do it with Q3. I like having a Bax as well (even easier--but go ahead, call me lazy ;) ) . The rest is not needed.
I saw Disclosure do a video of one of their songs with stock Logic plugins. Again, no one will notice a difference if the music is recorded and mixed properly.
Is this true for interfaces and preamps as well?
I only have 3 EQs 2 sock standard ones that came with my DAW and a dynamic EQ for when I can't be bothered automating the stock EQs.
Totally agree! Not only plug-ins but these manipulation with IR's is all to make more money for you to purchase IR packs! Total greed and manipulation when they should have put in the quality professional cabs. The whole audio engineering people developing guitar modelers and these plug-ins sometime around 2014-2016 got together and decided, lets turn up our greed meters and get as much money as we can out of these clueless musician's! After all they're not near as smart as all us audio engineers.
how many more Mesa 4x12 with V30's do we actually need?
@@apoplexiamusic Right On Brother! I'm easy really as all I want is a solid stand alone hardware guitar modeler with 2 -powerful dual DSPs, 1ms latency and few solid metal amps like the 5150, Krank Revo-1, Marshall and Soldano a small selection of killer distortion pedals like the Boss DS-1, Metal Zone, YJM signature, DOD overdrive etc and about 3-4 pro cabs, few delay choices like vintage digital, Ping pong and reverb plate and room and I'm a happy shredder dude in my own little world in my bedroom!
I'm not sure I'd describe it as a scam. People want to buy plugins and people have to pay their rent and feed their families. The plugin industry, likely, employs lots of people. And, let's face it, monetizing music in more traditional ways is shrinking for many that try. That said, thanks for the post.
What is your point? They should steal and lie to pay their rent and feed their families?
Hope things pick up for you ol mate. It can be a lot newly world out there can't it.
What about digital recreations of analogue synthesizers? Are they prone to the same kind of biases? Is there enough of a difference between the plugins themselves and is there even enough of a difference between the plugin and the original gear? Or is there maybe a little bit more to it?
i think you can digitally model synths very well. however, the real difference comes in the physical nature of playing a synth or patching a modular, more than purely the sound quality
@@APMastering Thank you for the response. 🙏
Do you think there's some validity to when people claim to be able to hear the difference between an actual analogue synthesizer and its plugin counterpart (provided it's a meticulously programmed one)? Or is that just bias in your opinion?
@@titovalasques it depends. for example, if you simply record a synth at 24/96 and play it back with good convertors at a match level, nobody would be able to tell between the original and the recording in a proper ABX test. So "digital" isnt a limitation, only the quality of the algo. I havent done any ABX tests on synths vs emulation plugins so I cant really say
@@APMastering That's an excellent point. Thanks!! Oh, I subbed! 😄
One word: CONGRATS!!!!! I respect people like you that go deep in the technical knowledge and don't just buy those marketing pseudo-technical BS that the industry creates and people just blindly replicates. Tks for the video.
Yeah dude! You know what’s up. AB comparisons, null tests and level matching has saved me so much money over the years. lol. I always feel like a prick though trying to explain this stuff to people. Just today I had to explain why adding dither to a mix isn’t going to make the midrange sound better. SMH. The guy actually said, “Maybe you won’t hear it but you can feel it”. So I said.. “ Listen Mr McGurk McGurkins, (that was his real name) if you can pick out the dithered mix 9 out of 10 times in a blind test I’ll personally mail you an official “2024 Golden Ears” certificate. But until then.. please just stop. 😊
YES. Love it. There will be more stuff like this on my channel calling out audio industry bullshit. Stay tuned!
@@APMastering I’m in!
@@APMastering I'm in for the ride also!
@davidasher22 hey guys great convo, but I didn’t wanna jump in about the dither part because I just saw a conversation between Dave Pensado and Andrew Scheppes (sp?) about this very topic. Dithering at lower nitrates can actually bring out the midrange, but it’s highly content dependent. They explained the logic behind it (I don’t remember tbh).
*bitrates
Well, the big difference comes if you use them in zero latency mode, linear phase, minimum phase and so on.. they have different "flavors" in terms of aliasing, pre-ringing and so on😅😅.
well I talk about linear phase later in the video being the only "true flavour". however there is no such thing as actual zero latency, only low latency and this is generally the same thing as minimum phase when it comes to EQ design.
@@APMasteringit's zero latency because the filters are based on an IIR topology. the filter uses feedback, infinitely long. the concept of latency wouldn't make sense on those
@@Beatsbasteln it can be based on various different principles but either way, zero latency means that the plugin performs its processing in 0ms. This is not possible since all calculations require a nonzero amount of time compute so zero latency is trivially impossible. Zero latency normally means a latency below 2ms or something very small which you cant really hear. Even zero latency antelope plugins have nonzero latency.
@@APMastering but that must be for other reasons than the filters, cause just like i said the filter has no clear length. it is infinitely long by design. it's the opposite to linear phase filters, which are based on the FIR topology, or convolution. there the filter has a finite length and the center is your exact latency
@@Beatsbasteln any code which executes in exactly 0ms is incompatible with the laws of our universe. No code executes in 0ms. This is an inarguable scientific fact and there is no discussion to be had there.
Can you do the same for compressors?
yes. coming soon
What are your thoughts about AI enhanced dynamic EQs like sonible smart:EQ and pure:EQ?
@@user-yd2wh9jf4s I didn't ask any anonymous user with a cryptic name for his baseless opinion.
never used them, im assuming they are crap. so far everything which has AI in it is worse than the original non AI version in every area of my life except for getting chatgpt to list a bunch of ideas for stuff, then some of the ideas might be interesting. but chatgpt gets more stuff wrong than it gets right in my experience
@@APMastering Thanks for your honesty.
@@APMasteringYou guess wrong. Smart EQ is essentially soothe mixed in with a dynamic match eq.
It also has frequency unmasking and all instances are linked accross your project so that you can carve space in any track from one screen.
The ai assistant is a button that lives at the top of the screen and never needs touching.
Its a fair product.
Pure eq sucks.
This is a great lesson to be learned by anyone producing music. As a plugin coder myself l know that a lot of the algorithms used for EQ, compression, reverb, etc. are pretty standard and even predate the audio plugin era. The part about the UI is true as well, a plugin with fancy UI (or even a downright photo of a vintage console) will go a long way into convincing you that the sound is better, or "analogue" when it is not. My advice would be to use your stock plugins as much as you can, and if you need to buy a commercial one, then go for a highly specialised one, but certainly not EQ, or compression, etc.
The true test of a valuable plugin is against the actual unit being emulated. Specially if it's a legendary one. Example: I own an Avalon VT-737 and also the UAD version. I invite anyone to listen to a vocal track recorded on the physical pre and compare to the UAD version processed track. Don't tell them which is which, have them recognize it.
@@pedrobossio5440 l don't think that's important at all. Let's suppose they try to emulate it but they don't get it right, it can still sound good, or even better than the otiginal. But plugins don't need to emulate analogue gear to be great, l was actually thinking about plugins like Gullfoss or Spectre.
@@ric8248you're right in that a plugin doesn't need to emulate analogue gear. Anyone who knows what he's listening to can achieve a pro result recording, mixing or even mastering using stock DAW or free plugins. I know I can. However, not all plugins are created equal. Some plugins emulate unique properties of the hardware, with acuracy and it's a matter of choice rather than need, preference. I've been mixing and producing for over five decades (yea, Im an old fart, 70) and Im used the summing of large format consoles, SSL, Focusrite ISA, Neve. I find that the channel strips from Pluging Alliance, with their TMC Technology closely emulate the suming of a 72 channel console which is almost impossible to get today otherwise, for a fraction of the price. I own a Shadow Hills Class A Mastering compressor (12k!!!!) And have A-Bd a track, same settings in software as on the unit to a very acurate result. 12K? or $200? For more than 90% accuracy? For me that's a great value.
I can't say all plugins are a scam. Plugins have a use and it's a matter of preference rather than need.
@@pedrobossio5440 Oh ok, l understand you. So for you a plugin that emulates a hardware with which you have a long familiarity would not only save you money but also a lot of time and effort and facilitate your workflow. That is a fair point. My guess is that this video is probably aimed at people who are entering the mixing world and are overwhelmed by the amount of plugins and their promises, and assume that they need them in order to achieve a certain sound.
Pultec says hold my beer boys.
hardware pultecs are cool because of the raw circuitry and the boost and attenuate knobs which have a really interesting effect on the mids when they are both turned up. Despite them being cool, you can do the same thing with pro Q and a distortion plugin.
Sure you could get the same thing with a lot of digital plugins and making a chain, but the point is speed and workflow. I hear how things react different and if i wanna get a quick color by going straight to it with the emulation i know how it’ll function vs trying to get a similar thing in raw digital EQ then yeah it’s worth it.
I love my Waves Scheps 73. Slight 12k boost (3db), slight 3khz bump, roll off some 200hz and an 80db HPF. Lately it's my only eq aside from Deessing. But I do have probably 3 or 4 paid EQ such a fab filter Pro 3 ha ha.. you can't have enough flavors at your disposal
@@APMastering I like your video, but you can definitely do not equal a hardware pultec with a pro Q and distortion.. I speak from experience ;). There is still an audible difference between most hardware and plugins if you let them work hard.
@@CreativeMindsAudio pultec plugin is a digital EQ. Or do you mean a parametric EQ? Because it's the same, just with different controls plus some unspecified mystery distortion which you cannot control. I prefer having control over my distortion.
The ending about feelings, facts and people arguing 'about all sorts of things in the Internet these days' killed me 😂
Is this also true with compressor plugins?
Could you please do a similar video to this one for Compressor plugins?
coming soon
@@APMastering Thank you! 🙏
True story bro! Audio industry is full of lies
👍
I reach for analog eq plugins when I want the modeled saturation that comes with it or sometimes the “air” frequencies sound a little different (but still pretty close). I think there’s something to be said for having the workflows of older gear easily recreated, for example the stepped tiers of a specific console. It’s faster than figuring it out in a graphic eq.
Can you do that with analog vs digital? Very curious
yeah
Can the same be said about all the “different” compressors?
not entirely but theres a ton of snake oil there. I want to make a video on it but its going to be hard because i dont have a great way of demonstrating what compressors are doing in a convincing way thats not going to be really long winded for me to film and it probably wont be especially convincing for people who are on the fence
But.. what about plugins that sample hardware curves ?, preamps, outputs..etc.. dynamically with different volumes, different samples...etc.. the curve will give a "flavor" similar to the hardware.
99.99% of "producers" do NOT use their ears to evaluate sound objectively. They SWEAR they do, but they don't. And then, they use perception bias. I know a guy who's actually pretty good and has a professional career (as do I), but falls for EVERY plugin con going.
Agreed. Though TBH, 99.99% of "producers" online don't realize that music Producers are not Mix Engineers, Arrangers or Artists.
Whilst I agree with what you're saying, What's you opinion on something like the STL Tracing plugin which basically "copies" Analogue equipment and creates a digital representation of it?
Surely this is somewhat an exception to the rule?
i havent seen that but its probably just a IR based approach... bare in mind though that you can demonstrate a null test between the original expensive gear and a built in free plugin.
Is this true for saturators and compressors too? Are you able to emulate the behavior of a UAD 1176 with a regular digital compressor for instance? can you recreate the harmonic content and reaction of a 1073 preamp in the digital domain? or is it all bullshit just like the EQs? Do you believe plugins can emulate curves, harmonic distortion, non-linearities of hardware and create a near-zero mathematical difference in delta when it comes to the digital domain? So buying hardware is essentially bullshit? I'd love to hear more about this.
I don't like Acustica , but I do have to begrudgingly admit that they are the class leader at using fairly advanced tech to capture and emulate real hardware. STL also does a take on the same thing with ControlHub.
And in guitar amp land, there's Neural Amp Modeller, and it's extremely common for captures done by a skilled user to have a near zero ESR, which is a measure of the "error" between the capture and the real amp being captured.
Coding a vst compressor since 15 mars 2023. There is 365 parameters. Can emulate lots of compressors/saturator, but you will never get perfect delta. Vari-mu's are the most difficult to emulate. Most of acustica compressors seems to have modeled the transfer curve, but the enveloppes followers seems more basic/digital than real hardware.
I'd say that if fancy analogue plugins make people actually finish their tracks, then there's no that big of a disadvantage :D
It’s not bullshit at all - I use these EQs and they do have a different way they EQ with different behaviors. Are you saying a SSL G series EQ and Pultec sound the same?
His point is majority of eqs are the same
One area where EQs can differ sonically is series vs parallel architecture in the filters and interactivity.
Also usability with stepped controls, where limitations can be a *good* thing as it forces choice making. Just as with many classic analog boxes.
Hey there Alain,
thank you for absolutely brilliant videos! good to get a little reality check :)
I was wondering , could you explain for me/us what you meant when you were talking about the missing time constant in dynamic feature of pro eq3?
would love to hear more and learn about that.
cheers to you!
thanks! last time i used Q3 there were no attack / release knobs for the dynamic EQ functionality. I emailed the company about this, giving my feedback that not having this renders it useless for precision work (like mastering, and im a mastering engineer) and that I would not upgrade from Q2 unless it has time constants because without them, its just Q2 plus a broken feature I would never use. They replied just saying basically "well dan worrall thinks its fine without these knobs". 🤷♂️
Spot on! They're selling us "dog piss" in nice beer bottles! There is another TH-camr, if I can call him that, were he did a comparison with guitar amplifiers and manage to recreate "the valve" sound just with a DAW EQ connecting a guitar direct to his interface (no fancy preamps) and tbh there was no difference in sound after a few tweaks. So definitely if you know how to use an EQ, no matter which one, you can achieve you desired goal sonically.
Yeah often you can emulate expensive stuff with simple tools. Maybe the amp was class A and then it could be emulated with EQ and light distortion but if it were class AB there would also be sag and some more complex things to model to get it to sound spot on. But I don't want to hate on expensive gear too much, I don't just sit in my room with free plugins. There's something real nice about playing an expensive guitar through an expensive tube amp loud with a spring reverb, even if you can model that digitally nowadays.
@@APMastering Definitely agree with you on that one! Yeah I'm not implying for people not to value a well made instrument or any other top-notch compressor or any other equipment, or toss the one's they've got for that matter. I have a 1974 Silverface Twin Reverb which I love, and probably I'll never sell it since it gets the the job done on the go with very little post-production tweaking! But I think the take-away form your video is that we shouldn't be deceived by expensive vst emulators just because they have a nice design or so and so say they're like the "real thing" and charge you hundreds of pounds or dollars, you might as well buy the real thing, at the end of the day at least you can sell it whilst plugins probably not.
@@commodore74 yeah exactly. I've played a more recent twin reverb and I remember trying to "crank it" on clean to see what's its made of but it just got hilariously loud and remained pretty clean, which was impressive. It was just like "you want jet plane takeoff loudness? OK, no problem, here's you go" without breaking a sweat. Probably my fav head is selmer treble n bass 50.
which youtuber did that with the daw EQ? I've seen the insane country music guy make 3 amp simulations out of overdrive pedals and EQ pedals, but not in the daw.
What's the TH-camr's name?
Excellent video. I am in agreement as an audio pro since 1981.
Use your ears not your eyes.
Love and Peace
🙏👍😎
@@Trackformers well you know, I have albums out on Sony, EMI, Phonogram, Beggers Banquet, Go Discs!, One Little Indian, 4AD, Island, WEA and others, so far so good, so what….
What is linear phase? All I know is that it causes more latency lol. So it's for mastering I guess? But what does it do?
i'm a ME and barely use it tbh
essential for mid/side eqing, parallel processing but if you don't know what you're doing, just don't use it. it can cause severe artifacts that are worse than a shift in phase of the signal! it would be too long to explain, but it has some niche purposes
Filters cause phase shift, which is noticable especially when using a filter to split one audio signal into multiple bands.
As soon as you sum the parts back into omce signal you've got horrible phasing going on.
Linear phase does not cause these artifacts it's basically a more accurate emulation of the filter, takes up more.processing time and cpu to do it but allows multiband processing
what do u mean the dynamics is useless with pro q3? So many ppl use it and i do it as well, so im pretty interested in your perception.
im a mastering engineer so i need more control. if you just want some approximate thing for mixing then i guess its fine but my workflow when im mixing is a similar kind of vibe to when im doing mastering
@@APMastering I'm interested in this too. What is it about it that is imprecise? Would you recommend the Tokyo Dawn plugin over it? Cheers
@@APMastering Ok I understand. Is the Izotope Dynamic Eq a better option for mastering?
@@jonathanglenz3894 yes but i dont like izotope much
yet i recommend nova over FF for dynamic eq
I love videos exposing BS in industries and this one is just as satisfying as the rest. ☕️
I’m glad this one popped off and I hope this brings more attention to you channel. I watched some of your other videos and they’re pretty informative. Looking forward to see what else you do in the future.
I'm not really convinced.
I think there are some generic products, but these are all different companies trying to create their best models.
Most arent good at it, but I don't think its a scam. I created a circuit modelled filter yesterday.
It's been done before but it took me a year to figure out how to accurately represent a cascade of vacuum tubes.
Doesnt mean im trying to scam you by creating something unoriginal.
Everyone doesnt release music in a completely new never before heard genre each time. They iterate. Some works are better than others.
there are many artists trying to make EDM. Songs can turn out simialr. It doesn't mean EDM is a scam.
Analog EQ plugins are emulations of curves+saturation+non-linear behaviours. It's a package. It's not fair to say they're scams just because the digital EQ can make the same curve.
We wouldn't say a burger is scam because everyone could just get beef, bun, tomato, veg and cheese. The combination makes it a burger, and different combinations make different style of burgers although the ingredients are pretty simple.
I agree that people shouldn't need a lot of plugins tho, but it's not fair to call the analog emulations scams.
Peace.
I'm not hating on emulation plugs... the thing I'm saying is a scam is the lie that there are different EQ flavours that will dramatically change the sound of your mix and you need a bunch of different EQs for different sound sources. I actually really appreciate combination plugins and want to develop one myself for mastering for the convenience of having everything in one place.
I like the analogy, in that case I would consider buying the sauce that makes the flavor of my so called favorite burger and reuse it in maybe other places or tweak it. Better to break it down and use the actual building blocks in turn would add a color to my palette.
@@APMastering Interesting .. there's been a few attempts at "one stop shop" mastering plugins, and they have been somewhat, underwhelming shall we say? What kind of functionality are you thinking?
@@pelennorDSP I want to have a branded mastering plugin which has dynamic EQ and a limiter. Ideally I'd take Nova and add a limiter to it with various customisations. I've written to the developer of TDR Nova and he didnt get back. I dont think I have enough social media clout yet to convince developers to work with me as I only started social a few weeks ago.
@@APMastering So kind of like a combination of TDR Nova and Limiter No 6? Interesting .. I was expecting more different functions in one. Other than a small increase in efficiency, how would you anticipate that improving on a separate dynamic EQ and limiter in combination?
Thankyou ! Could you speak about good reverbs?
check out TAL reverb, its free. i like it.
Mind Blowing! What about other kinds like compressors and reverbs and such?
FINALLY someone is speaking the truth!!! Most of the basic plugins included in all DAWS are fine. Only plugins I buy are specific effects I need that aren’t already in Logic.
Not convinced: there is an audible delta in each and every example you show.
sure there's some delta. i doubt you'd hear the difference in an ABX rest though
@@APMasteringThat's also true when comparing different high gain amps in most metal mixes. Doesn't meant Soldano and Mesa Boogie are scamming anyone.
What about compressors, fx and other?
will cover in a new video soon, sub to not miss
The only thing you confirmed was waves plugging are false advertising which coming from analog I knew this 20 years ago. Now slate digital has said they have recreated the harmonics and tones of older gear is this true?
Currently filming part 2 with slate plugs
If you don’t hear a difference then use one plugin. I clearly can hear differences with e.g. MAAT Santa Cruz EQ that I personally use. I can’t tell you what it does though. And they don’t say it neither. Probably some oversampling and transient separation - my guess. And yes there is a plugin industry and I’m sure there is code being used and repeated over and over several times in different “tools”. And totally agree they want your money.
Some programmers like Analog Obsession who clearly is not in the money making game usually explains quite well what and how he’s doing it. And his EQs and compressors do sound different because of the design of the code. Not just curves and bells and dBs of gain but component modeling, preamp modeling and even sometimes separate saturation settings and modeling (like GrapHack) and input/output stage modeling. That’s what creates nuances that most people unfortunately can’t really hear.
For a while, I was into getting a ton of plugins, but over time I would default to the same plugins. It was mostly amp sims that I was collecting, but now I basically just use 1. Usually when I'm looking for a plugin, it's because I'm missing a specific feature.
i think distortion is the thing with the most potential for flavour, along with reverb
Difference how they produce the harmonics. Am I wrong ?
Yes. EQ's dont produce any harmonics. They manipulate them. And they all do so in the same way. A combination of Q setting + cut or boost.
@@daystrainsandtracks1246first of all you are not inside a topic 2nd question not to you. So get the fuck out of here.
Your section on EQs is on point. I use Nova and Fruity parametric EQ on almost everything. Very informational
the scham is that the charateristics and harmonic responses which can be easily switched out in theory as a preset are being sold as single plugins. it's pretty much the same with most effects which claim to color the sound. they just sell you a harmonic response curve for a vanilla fx with a nicely designed GUI
For some.
Curcuit modelled vsts are different.
This waves stuff is cheap, of course you're going to get a mediocre result.
I don't like ReaEQ because it cramps on highs I think. I just use the default cubase EQ haha. It has mid/side, dynamic EQ with threshold, linear phase, etc. Only time I use a different one I guess is OneKnob Filter because it's easy to automate. Neutron is also good for the sidechaining EQ bands and the masking highlighter. I'm not very pro at mixing though.
I'm sticking to the default Reaper EQ after this.
Yeah try equilibrium it has all the curves and q behaviours of most of the popular analog units.. of course you can dial these into any good digital eq by hand but having these ready to go makes things quicker and is probably the biggest selling point for all these plugins as some people know how they will roughly behave
I use the the built in Ableton EQ the most and have been using that most of all the fancy pancy eq's out there, ive had access to those but why bother when you have a perfectly fine eq.
I dont use Ableton so can't speak for the EQ, but from what I've seen it doesnt have dynamic processing and a few features that I use every day, so I'm not sure if I'd be content with that particular EQ merely because of the features, but its probably just fine for general composition work
If non-modeling EQs sound different, one or both of them is broken.
what about the UAD pulteq eq vs the pro q3
you can copy it. It is just more involved.
Eq is a volume knob basically. So every EQ from a practical perspective is identical in function. Do your measurement tools allow to identify the tonal, textural, and spacial differences in various EQs? Can plugins actually re-create these differences? Is that the real Scam? I'd love to learn more about that.
Not according to some online audio forums people. EQ is magic to them.
I wonder - this means that the zero-delay U-he's DIVA's filters sound the same with non- zero-delay filters like ZEBRA? From my own experience there is a clear difference when you crank up the resonance
there is a HUGE diffrence between linear phase and minimum phase EQ with extreme resonance, this is because of pre-ringing. That why I mention it towards the end of my video
can anyone fill me in about what was meant by the dynamic eq/time constant comment??
sure, dynamic EQ acts kind of like a compressor. Check out this plugin: www.tokyodawn.net/tdr-nova/
Time constants are the attack and release knobs for this kind of EQ. Fab filter pro 3 doesnt have these knobs. It just does some unspecified mystery setting because its aimed at beginners and doesnt want to over complicate the plugin.
@@APMastering got it. thanks so much!
@@adamp108 no problem
@@APMastering MB covers all that an more, I think that feat is an overshoot for quick fixes
@@neurotransmi77Er you mean fab filter MB? I bought that plugin but dont use it very often. I prefer Nova with its normal time constants and EQ style
what about compressors?
there are more differences but i think i will make a video on them too. defo overhyped but there are more genuine flavours because it has much more to do with distortion and the lin/log/exp curvature of the modulation
The one thing I notice in my own work flow of late is, that I mix using fewer plugins. I go to what works, what I know, and realize there are many shiny things that claim things that can sidetrack you. I arrive at a happy place with my Pultecs, Fairchild, graphic eq from logic, Abbey Road saturator and my Shepps Omni channel. I do experiment with compressors and verb, but mainly its old school stuff. It ends up being faster as well. Find the problem areas, fix it, and move on.
There is a case for Valve equipment creating resonances in 3rds and 5ths while transistors create Maj 2nd's.
Totally agree that most EQ's use similar algorithms and/or controls to produce similar results. However, there is one thing that sets most gear ( software or hardware ) apart and that's it's 'use case' scenario.
Just as an La2a may be capable of producing the same result as a Vari-Mu, the interface of a Neve 1073 will likely produce a different result when you first grab ahold of it, then say the stock Reaper EQ will. Not because they are fundamentally different but, because the design of the tool itself is different.
The knobs and sliders all have different linear behaviors which affect the immediate result of the physical tool being used. That's why hardware tools like an DBX 160 or a Neve EQ were so popular. Not because they all sounded radically different but, because the design of the tool itself made a faster or more musical result based on its unique arrangement of controls.
many things were also popular because they were available at the time and worked well. i discuss this in my next video
What about the difference between a Linear Phase EQ & a Minimum Phase EQ? The differecnes are clearly audible
Curious about metering plugins..
Love this, great way to shake up the audio community. Keep it coming!!
Well...yes and no. There are different EQ designs, like Constant-Q. Also differences can relate to workflow. Some EQs emulate vintage EQ with stepped frequencies or other settings. These can make it easier to dial in a sound quickly, because those frequencies were chosen by engineers back in the days when studio time was expensive. Tilt EQ is similar. So while it's possible to emulate those curves with something like Fabfilter, you might not want to take the time to do so. Other EQs (e.g., Pultec) have quirks that are possible to reproduce with other EQs, but you can't dial them in within seconds. Most of the time I used a DAW's bundled EQ for the reasons outlined in the video, but most of the time is not all of the time. Giving people choices is not a scam, it's up to users to evaluate which tools serve their needs best. Those considerations often involve workflow, not just technical accuracy.
Well said. You touched on what I have recently posted within these comments.
I've been saying that since ages...
some EQs even got some DB+ in some of the frequencies for when you activate on your track then you will notice a diference and will think that the EQ has some "flavor"
when all it did is having pre-built in saturation or boost in frequencies
There certainly are coloured ones thoguh : ) circuit modelled eqs are a different case
Can you get any sound out of any eq? Yeah, sure. The reason I prefer "themed" eq's for broadband toneshaping and "digital" eq's for surgical correction is because of the workflow. I don't want to boost 3.9dB at exactly 612Hz with a Q of 0.69, I want to turn up the mids till it sounds good.
Idk I like the “classic” style eq’s for their presets, just to try out a couple things. And it’s nice to have some set frequencies so I don’t have too many options and get lost in trying to make everything perfect. I use a pro-Q3 mostly for cutting frequencies and then a Pultec and Maag EQ4 to boost. I have a Max4Live plugin called gradient which lets you load 4 presets and puts them in an XY pad and I just scroll around till it sounds good, usually the middle setting between 2 eq presets. I also like not having a lot of functions per plugin, just like with synth plugins. If I’m gonna eq an 808 I know the pultec eqp1 will do the pultec punch trick with a preset, If I need an airy vocal I’m gonna use the Maag Eq4 which is made for that. It’s easier for me if those things are compartmentalized. In the same way I’ll use a Lexicon type reverb if I want an 80s sound and a EMT type reverb if I want a 70s sound, yeah there’s reverb plugins that to them both but it’s easier to grab something that has 1 purpose instead of having a more convoluted interface
Never before in the entire history of recorded music have more people been listening with their eyes.
Lmao “chocolate teapot “
I understand this concept after watching TH-camr Yuri Wong create some of the most recognizable opening themes of shows like Game of Thrones, The Walking Dead, Stranger Things etc just using Logic Pro and no outside instrument and plugins.
can the punters (listeners who listen to Spotify on crappy earbuds) tell the difference?
no
This is exactly why I switched to actual SSL Outboard EQs.
I had the pleasure of working on a 48 channel SSL 4000 G series earlier on in my career. Just fantastic.
@@APMastering one day, they are so expensive. The 500 series are terrific bang for the buck though. I’m so over the plug-in hype. Pretty much all I use now are the Pro Q, Waves CLA 76 and L2. Everything else goes through CAPI/SSL EQs and Distressors. The AudioScape stuff is amazing too. Cheers bro 👍🏻
What about compressors??
Wait... are you saying I need an eq now?
Thanks for this affirmation of a long-standing suspicion I've had. Regrettably, I have succumbed to the allure of "the buzz" but after spending my hard-earned and been constantly underwhelmed, I am convinced the grass is not necessarily greener on the other side.
True 🙌 I'm a Sound Engineering graduate and make music full-time for a living, I have never needed to install another EQ, a good stock parametric does the job.
Analog equipment having a feel is because its analog, the amount of variables compared to a digital 1:1 are so vast, if you want to give your music an analog vibe just use saturation or something, but always use the EQ you're most comfortable working with coz an EQ itself is not going to give your sound a "flavor", the settings will
You can literally mix a pro record with the stock plugins in your DAW
first: nobody ever said you have to buy more plugins
second: yes, completely equal sounding plugins can and will deliver different results
there are many, many reasons why a plugin gets you better sound, the placement of the controls, how you can control them, how it is layed out, this changes everything.
even completely copy paste algos deliver totally different results because they are implemented differently.
Ableton is a good example at genius ratios on knobs, placements and when to use a knob vs a fader vs a button etc
it is all way more complex than ppl think