they used to run the Dodge Omni with those little turbo motors, at the airport and they were very violent at high rpm. They spiked hard @5k and up and you knew it because of the massive torque steer that they had. I had always assumed it was the boost.
Hmmm... I'm guessing valve float. We ran against these 2.2s with 2300 Fords back in the early 2000s on circle tracks. Everyone had trouble with the followers jumping off at high revs. That's what makes me think valve float. On the Fords we would convert them to solid lash adjusters and run "mousetrap" springs to keep the followers from running away. Good work on the distributor mods Richard, looks like a fun project!
I know the man that co-developed these engines for Shelby. Dave Heitz from west North Carolina who happens to own the "Christine" pro modified drag car, which i had the pleasure of working alongside this man and helped rebuild the BAE blown Hemi for Christine once. He shared stories from when they were doing dyno sessions in a tunnel with these four bangers and they had issues with the flywheel breaking bolts. He said it came off one time and spun around and around inside that tunnel for about half an hour. He also built three billet blown hemis for Richard Petty, one of which dropped a valve seat on the dyno and I got to see the remains of that engine... everything had Petty enterprises stamped on it.
I had a GLHS i experienced this problem? I was driving it on a secluded road hit about 130 miles per hour and got a huge surge in power! I was totally surprised by this and was quickly off the throttle. Never tried to repeat it but when watching your dyno testing it made me reflect back to my experience. I’m very interested in seeing what you guys find out.
Subscribed. I built three Dodge turbos in my day. My 92 Turbo III was the nicest, so smooth and man that thing pulled hard. I had running 15.0 psi with meth injection and a bigger, front mounted Volvo intercooler. The first one I ever built was an 84 Turbo Z Daytona. I spent a years salary on that one. A Mopar Super 60 turbo kit (60 trim, injectors, pump, ecu,16 psi), a Spearco bottom mount intercooler with cooling nozzles, centerforce clutch, HD shift forks, transmission case stiffiners and finally some Gatorbacks and Konis. It was a beast. The Mustang guys hated me.
Check the rotor phasing is aligning with the cap electrodes. Cut large holes in the distributor cap to see this with a timing light. At a stretch, also check injectors are firing at the correct time. Looking forward to your progress 🙂
The big drop at the end is likely valve float, as for the power spike, I'm thinking that you're right on the money with the ignition diagnosis. I'm going to venture a guess and say that when you do get the ignition figured out it will likely make a bit more naturally aspirated than it did on your baseline pulls. In my experience, engines don't generally start making more power with no change in AFR (repeatedly) when something is going wrong, increased power is usually an indication that something is going right lol.
Saw 2.2. Automatically liked. What really matters is that the engine lives to fight another day. Sounds like a tractor at idle, sounds good at WOT though. The torque is the same my guess would have been RPM being off. That said, eratic behavior says timing/ignition alteration to me. May be time to dig up a crank wheel.
Great info Richard! I am watching intently...going to send this video over to my buddy at Chrysler and see what he thinks. He was one of the original engineers on the Turbo II engine. He may have some insight to share. Stay tuned!
I had an early 1.6 VW (actually a 1452cc) before I had a 1.7. It revved to the moon with all the goodies meant for a 1.8 GTI engine like a bigger cam and all that. Actually my rabbit diesel was quicker till 4500 and then it got it's hat and left until 7500. That 1.7 came on at like 2500 and fell really flat at 5k. Even the stock 1.6 lived it at 6500. The 1.7 was a little better choice for Chrysler though. That 8v VW block basically lives today as the newer 1.8 turbos and almost any current VW 4 cylinder can be traced back to that engine.
just picked up an abandoned 87 Shelby charger for 600 bucks, with original 31,000 miles, interior is perfect but the exterior will need work, kinda looks like whatever barn it was in collapsed, all the glass is good though, i had a 1984 California Shelby rampage that i swapped a Daytona 2.2 turbo z engine into and, the waste gate solenoid got stuck on that motor and it over boosted to 32 psi of and cracked the hypereutectic piston ring glands on a 4 pots
My WAG is it has to do with the manifold, which should be easy to test. My thinking is this: A engine needs four things to make power, air, fuel, compression and spark. The compression isn't changing so we can throw that out as the cause, you know what the timing was and it wasn't changing. It didn't suddenly get more fuel, or your AF ratio would have changed. So that leaves more air. Somehow at that RPM it just had better flow, you had enough injectors so when it saw more air it was able to add fuel to keep the ratio correct. More air, more fuel, more power. You are smarter about all this than I am, so I'm probably incorrect, but a simple intake swap might eliminate the spike, or more it somewhere else in the range.
Perhaps the power jump is lofting the valves off the cam making the big gains until it looses full control and goes in the toilet. 10:31 though looks like it did it at a lower rpm though which would not be consitent with something mechanical going on. I am going to say it was either something in the fuel or timing control that did it.
Hey Richard my brother had a 2.2L non-turbo and he took out counterbalance shaft and put a 2.5 L hydraulic roller head with hydraulic roller cams on it and it actually ran quite well.
People have had a lot of trouble with the 2.2l pickup with megasquirt systems. if i remember right its something about the trigger angle and it being in a bad point for the software (something like 25 to 40 degrees before tdc) relative to the rotor. Don't really remember the details clearly but when I had one in mine it would run but it wouldn't adjust timing correctly and would randomly be way off. Found the 84-85 distributer worked way better and was drivable but eventually just stuck a 36-1 wheel on the crank pulley and welded a bracket for the crank sensor on the oil pan. the actual 86+ turbo dizzy with the window was suppose to be impossible to get to work but I never messed with it.
great video. I owned one of those 2.2 (normal version) engines. IIRC you could order factory parts to build those up to 300 horsepower, and there was a Mopar parts list that specified the parts for each performance level. Wonder if that data is still around somewhere. Shelby knew what he was doing, that's for sure.
I don't specifically know the cause of your "spike" at the end (you're probably right about the size of the window) but fixing that will just leave you with other issues down the road. The stock crank trigger has always been a hinderance in these engines. Largely because it's belt driven (those not following along, timing belt drives the oil pump, distributer is driven by oil pump, pick up is in the dist. So... pick up is belt driven.). You would best be served converting to a pickup off the main pully or flywheel (TIII used a flywheel pickup in the bellhousing, most after market ECU users weld a 36-1 trigger wheel to the accessory pulley and fab a mount for a pick up accordingly). If you look at a crank signal with an oscilloscope on any of your projects that use a crank mounted pick up you'll see the signal is very clean and steady. If you look at the same data from this belt driven pick up you'll see it's very... sloppy. The belt allows some lash and the pick up reflects this. So even if you rework the windows to solve this issue, you my find the sloppy belt driven pick up is a problem later on in tuning (not to mention the stock bladed plug wires are garbage). But don't worry!!!... your cool LS pick up converted distributor doesn't need to go to waste. You can convert to pully mounted crank pick up and re-task the distributor pick up to be a cam sync pick up (because it turns in time with the cam) and run distributor-less ignition!!! Use any common 4cyl coil pack in wasted spark or 1 bank of LS coil packs or even COP in sequential. You could compare all 4 versions (stock dist, wasted spark pack, LS coils and COP) and see who wins... (more content to film!!). Great work!
Decent power, for low compression. A 150 shot of nitrous would be interesting to see. Maybe a more precise trigger wheel would make timing easier to control. Do you think a magnet pickup could be mounted onto it?
Shelby said he found 40 degrees total advance to work on the street. The 84 Shelby had a special ECU with more total advance and a knock sensor. That spike seems to be timing getting away then valve float at the drop off. Needs a (Half) set of 340 valve springs or better yet, cut the valveguide boss down and run Beehives. The stock 2.2 valve retainers are HEAVY. Beehives retainers are less than half the weight.
@@richardholdener1727 On my Shelby I set the timing at 20 degrees advanced with the vacuum hose off the ECU. Then when the hose is back on it jumped to like 25 advanced. The special ECU allowed a total of 40 degrees this way.
Fantastic video :-) I was NOT expecting that much NA power, especially with the low compression turbo pistons…I was thinking 80hp or under (my carbed 2.2 is rated from the factory for 84hp)!!!
Oh yea, I had several of these motors and ran the crap out of them. It could lock horns with at the time the early 2000's stick 4.6 stangs in my 4 door hatchback dodge shadow. Pissed off many owners. Most of them didn't realize they had to rev their 4.6 to the moon in order to get to their power sweet spot, good times.... Nice low end torque on these 2.2s, typical mopar. Your NA curves look right for a stock NA motor. I favored the 2.5 turbo with the counterbalancer removed. I never had the two piece intake but the one piece worked really nice. I do remember something about the rings regarding these motors, have broken them for seemingly no reason except during a very high rpm pull. So I always kept mine below 5300ish. Not sure about the power jump towards the end, doesn't look like valve float. However, are you using the turbo cam with the NA setup? If I remember there was no overlap on the turbo one. Could be just weird things happening with using turbo parts with NA. Also speaking of cams, if the belt is too tight or things are going wonky in the beltrain it could snap the cam. These motors are susceptible to spark ignition dance too because of the belt. If it were me doing this I would ditch the distributor altogether for CoP. You got the box for it, might as well.
IN MY OPINION if the ignition was locked on the last two: The first few pulls with the overly advanced ignition timing is from pumping losses. Dealt with it myself on the dyno. Its soooooo far advanced that loses the ability to kill the motor but it makes terrible power (gets worse at lower rpm and will eventually hurt the motor if it can rev high enough) and runs rich. The power spike that youre seeing after you locked the timing out seems to be a cam/intake/springs/portvelocity mismatch or something.... but it moving is very suspect lol.
First and foremost get rid of the 90degree on the intake and weld the flange flush and add a mini van throttle body also get a header or make one out of the turbo manifold.
Would love to talk we’re building a max effort 2.2 stock eliminator engine. Lot of rules. But we plan on being in the top of the Field at the US nationals.
I'm willing to bet if you extended or reduced the length of exhaust pipe after the collector, you'd loose most of that spike in power. I think it's right at the point where the pressure waves of the intake are coinciding with the negative pressure waves of the exhaust, so you're getting a super scavenging effect in the engine at that rpm. That exhaust pipe length looks about the length needed to make the negative pressure wave peak at 5000rpm (we make our step ups from 2" to 3" just behind the gear stick location) usually the place where the catalytic converter would be is the best for a 4500-5500rpm power spike. Certainly it feels like vtec inside the car, I liken it to a free nitrous hit
I'm familiar with the many different forms of scavenging on the exhaust along with the three major forms of cylinder filing in the intake, my question is why did the spike change with no change in exhaust pipe length?
@@richardholdener1727 it may have a bearing on the injection timing, as in the exhaust gas temperature and pulse strength based on how much of the combustion pressure is blowing down and how much is useful work. You'll know yourself that spikes in power like that are usually as a result of a massive increase in cylinder filling/scavenging. I wonder if you could replicate this situation on another engine. It seems to me that the peak power below this spike is quite low given the engine set up, so it's probably all the hp missing per rpm above and below it all coming to say hello at the same point
Richard, was the AFR crazy rich up to 5500 RPM? I've done a lot of tuning with an LM3 and I find that even at 20 PSI of Boost you don't 80LB injectors. And I agree with @butcherbaker4258 many many thanks for taking on a Dodge 2.2 Very little Dyno data out there, lots of hearsay. Would really like to see some of the aftermarket Cams on the Dyno! (I'm also interested in seeing the timing sensor fix, I would love to ditch the factory computer it is ancient, very very basic).
was 12.2:1 -this was na, and the 80-pounds will support near 400 hp with e85 once we add boost so we have plenty of fuel flow (smaller injectors do nothing if the AF is correct)
I’m thinking you’ve got a combination of things creating the spike 1 cam profile designed for a boosted application 2 exhaust scavenging and 3 ignition timing 4 fuel injection timing 🤷🏼♂️
The stock cam and the later inlet manifold apparently like each other problem a lot less backpressure then with the turbo on as well might have found the right resonance wave
Have to fix the known issues first. Get the basic 'tune-up' fixed (reliable, repeatable timing control). What does O2 sensor say? What is oil pressure doing at rpm? Then I'd put a foot of pipe on the throttle body. Have seen some weird stuff on 4 cylinder from removing the tube.
I swapped a G grind cam into a 82 Scirocco, and noticed a similar thing, the stock cam in the 1.7L motor would rev to 6500 but lacked pull power, it would just rev, but the new cam got a power spike from 6k up to 7k RPM, and I never knew why, but I liked it, so I wonder if it's your camshaft grind causing this power spike. I only changed the cam, no other mods to my engine or fuel system.
Not knowing the holley system, I'm suspecting that the loss of timing control is a result of loss of position recognition. If possible, I'd be using a crankshaft position sensor on the lower belt pulley, and a single tooth camshaft sensor in the distributor. The power fall off is occurring at different rpm's, dependent on your initial ignition timing. As such, I would ignore valve springs at this stage, along with the intake manifold. I would however add another couple of feet to the exhaust.
Interesting test to the surprise of 55° ignition advance? My buddy had an 1986 Shelby Charger, he blew up the manual transmission twice, the second time they would not keep the warranty 😂
I timed my old 83 GTI by ear once. Darn thing ran awesome. One day I figured I should check it because I heard a little part throttle ping in traffic. Kinda glad I did, it had like 28btdc and it's supposed to be like 6 🤣
Wow, no blown head gasket yet? Brian Tooley might have some insight on the intake, he ported my head, 2 piece intake, exhaust manifold and exhaust side of my turbo housing. Of course he may just want to forget it too.
Going to take a stab here, and if the ignition/distributor timing checks out, make sure that the cam timing is dead nuts on, might be too advanced. And you have to line up timing marks with a head that's tilted back. On the 2.4 dodge motors the little pin that holds the cam in place with the cam gear will sheer and your cam timing will be off. I would check the cam gear to cam alignment again just to be sure.
Had a Plymouth Sundance with a 2.5, wish I would have got a turbo, those are great little engines, that is a weird power curve, stock mine would fall flat at about 4500. I autocrossed it and had a blast
Awesome project. Would love to see pics of the cars these engines were first built in. Would love to see the engine from that Dodge in the 80's movie 'Suburban Commando'
Wow! It made more power NA than I thought it would. I guessed 80hp on FB. It made (basically) what the HO Shelby NA engine in the '83 Shelby Charger made (110hp). As for that spike...I'm not sure, but it sure feels like timing. Check to make sure the reluctor wheel in the distributor is tight. The little plastic part that is attached to the wheel can become loose and cause all kinds of issues.
Dick Johnson Racing in Australia used to run in their 2L Cosworth Sierra motors NA on the dyno. Dick has often quoted 5.4:1 compression ratio, 90hp NA, and 540hp with endurance turbo tune. I've seen the compressor wheels out of those turbo's, there was plenty left
In July of 2021 I made a comment on the original video that you will make 241 flywheel hp at 7.2lbs with your stock longblock setup. Still stand by that statement. The right intake manifold, exhaust manifold, intercooled on e85.
Use direct connection dual carb set up using two o.e.factory carbs 220 ..220 camshaft you'll get close to 200 hp..at the wheels had a 84 Shelby rampage
Thanks, Richard, for your work with this 80's vintage motor. I'm currently rebuilding a 2.5 and, as my first attempt with this engine, I can use all the help I can get. Please identify contact info for the 'Car Farm ' as they obviously have expertise with these motors (as well as parts).
Cam timing spike leaning it out maybe.... sucking air at high rpm maybe, I'll bet it's something simple bad senser...crank trigger vacuum leak??? I have faith you'll figure it out, before you melt the pistons hopefully!!
Is it possibly tossing the valves at higher rpms. Essentially adding lift and duration to the cam profile. I believe nascar uses a similar concept by having pushrods that flex and when they relax it tosses the valve for a slight increase in overall off the seat duration. Just a thought I may be way off on this engine and yes ik it doesn't have pushrods
Get timing right befor doing anything else! Sounds like the trigger combination or ECU doesn't work right. As posted below the LS-24X sensor is weird. Try a regular geartooth sensor or a 5V 58X sensor. For testing before I have used an angle-grinder to spin the trigger wheel without risking damage to the engine.
Not a good 80’s dodge mechanic on these Omni”s but it’s spiking at high rpm’s. It’s a intake issue? Something is opening up or the timing is advancing on its own?? Or. The genius idea is it’s more efficient at these high rpm’s due to low compression. I’m guessing it but I covered air fuel and spark. What else. Something has a mind of its own? Vacuum? Thanks Richard. You are the go to professor.
Well rich I bought I first gen neon acr... special place in my heart. Now what I'd love to see is throw a DOHC neon head on that bad boy. From what I understand it's a fairly straightforward swap and worth a good bit of power. Back when I was 17 I had built a 2.0 na motor for the neon I had back then and I got about 240whp (this was over a decade ago don't remember) but it was a fun car and I'm proud to say I believe I was the first to put a motorcycle power commander piggy back on one to tune it lmao car was a hoot though wanna say I got it down to 2200lbs and I didn't even hit the brakes to make a 90°turn at 60mph. And before anyone laughs too hard iv owned well over 100 fun cars and that was the one I missed the most. Nothing special to look at but for a spartan car with huge smiles per dollar it's the king to me.
@@richardholdener1727 yeah but it was stock rotating assembly with love and all the head work I could do (worked at a machine shop at the time) header that I spent some time on and a intake that I did the same with. Don't remember the cam but it was a big crane. I think cr was around 13:1 was a long time ago lol. I know it was a blast and I used to go through trannies pretty often. Enough that the local supply dried up on the last one I bought.
@@richardholdener1727 but I would love to see a DOHC neon head on a 2.2 I hear it's a very easy swap and the neon head is pretty good. You even have the 420a Mitsubishi head that's the same but intake and exhaust are flipped.
Cam is designed for turbo. Intake and head designed for a turbo. Maybe at higher rpm you are meeting desired Flow it was designed for? I have the exact engine in my 87 Shelby z
We run same distributor with 3 of the 4 flags cut off and a cherry sensor stuck in. We just keep the one flag for checking TDC for full sequential. I have pics I can share with you.
If the peak moved it definitely isn't a intake/exhaust resonance spike. Going to say ignition or even injector phasing could be the culprit. With those massive injectors your injection time has to be tiny - maybe 4-5 mS up top? The shorter your injection time the more important phasing becomes. Could be that at high rpm you're getting better atomization.
I remember the 2.2 charger and when I launched at-4500 it was always the best scenario outcome I don't know why but it always was faster launching it at 4,500
I like to use a DSO on cam and crank sensors, to verify good clean wave form, lol, I just heard you say the "teeth" on your cam sensor are too big, that's just what I was going to say......
Have you thought about getting rid of the distributor and going coil near plug or waste spark? As would it be easier to just use a different reluctor wheel on the crank for better resolution. I used a Microsquirt to run a turbo on an Chevy aveo 1.6 na motor and did away with the hassle of the camshaft sensor and use a multi event for fuel injection. If the timing of injection was of concern. Lucky for me the engine already used GMs 58x crank pattern.
Which sensor are you using in the distributor? If it's an actual 24x LS crank sensor, they are a biasing sensor and require the OE style crank reluctor where it switches from one side to the other. People ran into problems with them doing the 24x conversion on sbc's to run cnp ignition. For what you're doing, you should be using the sensor from the 96-02 5.7l vortec. It is designed to operate with the style trigger windows you have. Or the grey 58x LS sensor will probably also work.
Thank you Richard a lot of the dodge fwd fans are posting all of your videos and are very thankful for all of your hard work and in-depth testing.🇺🇲
So there's 4 people posting this?
What kind of dresses do you wear to the fwd meetup?
@@ClaytonYatescarenthusiast haha i was gonna ask if he meant both of them
Wow, I’m a 2.3 Ford lima turbo owner. This was always my arch nemesis. Thank you for showing the underdogs from the 80s.
Had a Daytona Shelby Z running 14psi with no issues. Fun little cars and engines.
they used to run the Dodge Omni with those little turbo motors, at the airport and they were very violent at high rpm. They spiked hard @5k and up and you knew it because of the massive torque steer that they had. I had always assumed it was the boost.
Hmmm... I'm guessing valve float. We ran against these 2.2s with 2300 Fords back in the early 2000s on circle tracks. Everyone had trouble with the followers jumping off at high revs. That's what makes me think valve float. On the Fords we would convert them to solid lash adjusters and run "mousetrap" springs to keep the followers from running away. Good work on the distributor mods Richard, looks like a fun project!
I ran a 2.0 pinto in a vw. No one liked being gapped in the 1/8 mile
I know the man that co-developed these engines for Shelby. Dave Heitz from west North Carolina who happens to own the "Christine" pro modified drag car, which i had the pleasure of working alongside this man and helped rebuild the BAE blown Hemi for Christine once. He shared stories from when they were doing dyno sessions in a tunnel with these four bangers and they had issues with the flywheel breaking bolts. He said it came off one time and spun around and around inside that tunnel for about half an hour. He also built three billet blown hemis for Richard Petty, one of which dropped a valve seat on the dyno and I got to see the remains of that engine... everything had Petty enterprises stamped on it.
Heck yeah! Been waiting patiently for this one
The power spike might be a ram air effect of the intake manifold at that engine RPM.
I had a GLHS i experienced this problem? I was driving it on a secluded road hit about 130 miles per hour and got a huge surge in power! I was totally surprised by this and was quickly off the throttle. Never tried to repeat it but when watching your dyno testing it made me reflect back to my experience. I’m very interested in seeing what you guys find out.
I have a GLHS now and will confirm that you get an extra kick right, right at redline
Subscribed. I built three Dodge turbos in my day. My 92 Turbo III was the nicest, so smooth and man that thing pulled hard. I had running 15.0 psi with meth injection and a bigger, front mounted Volvo intercooler.
The first one I ever built was an 84 Turbo Z Daytona. I spent a years salary on that one. A Mopar Super 60 turbo kit (60 trim, injectors, pump, ecu,16 psi), a Spearco bottom mount intercooler with cooling nozzles, centerforce clutch, HD shift forks, transmission case stiffiners and finally some Gatorbacks and Konis. It was a beast. The Mustang guys hated me.
Check the rotor phasing is aligning with the cap electrodes. Cut large holes in the distributor cap to see this with a timing light. At a stretch, also check injectors are firing at the correct time. Looking forward to your progress 🙂
I can't wait to see more of what Richard can do with the 2.2/2.5 engines!
2.5 is an animal. Friend had one with 20+psi in a caravan. Was a blast.
I think the weird peak is most likely resonance due to the manifold, as you said
Simple explanation, Richard. The spike is caused by PFM.
Pure Freakin Magic
Good luck finding the cause.
Thanks for sharing.
the dyno does not log timing-just af (only the holley has both of those but not power)
This is gonna be awesome ! This is the best series yet !!!!
Yeah! I have a 1986 Shelby 2.2 Turbo and a 1982 Plymouth Scamp GT 2.2 N/A.
Thank you. Thank you.
The big drop at the end is likely valve float, as for the power spike, I'm thinking that you're right on the money with the ignition diagnosis. I'm going to venture a guess and say that when you do get the ignition figured out it will likely make a bit more naturally aspirated than it did on your baseline pulls. In my experience, engines don't generally start making more power with no change in AFR (repeatedly) when something is going wrong, increased power is usually an indication that something is going right lol.
Saw 2.2. Automatically liked.
What really matters is that the engine lives to fight another day. Sounds like a tractor at idle, sounds good at WOT though.
The torque is the same my guess would have been RPM being off. That said, eratic behavior says timing/ignition alteration to me.
May be time to dig up a crank wheel.
I had a 89 shelby Daytona. Adding the 5th injector was the best bang for buck add on.
When was the last time ANYBODY saw a 2.2 on a dyno???
The plastic rivets in the distro are known to fail in the aftermarket units, the metal part will flop around and run like crap.
richard use an oscilloscope to measure whats going on with that ignition trigger circuit.
The ol girl likes the revs. Pour the beans to her and smile uncontrollably
I like that you share the fails, well struggles to be fair. That’s what the rest of us experience.
we fail, we learn, we succeed
Great info Richard! I am watching intently...going to send this video over to my buddy at Chrysler and see what he thinks. He was one of the original engineers on the Turbo II engine. He may have some insight to share. Stay tuned!
Awesome, thank you!
I thought dv was also involved with that engine
We're still waiting. Was it Stu?
I like the idea of maxing out power in NA form then adding the boost, that car should be a ripper.
never owned a chrysler product, but allways had an interest in the 2.2.was a hell of a step up from the VW 1.7 the 2.2 replaced.
I had an early 1.6 VW (actually a 1452cc) before I had a 1.7.
It revved to the moon with all the goodies meant for a 1.8 GTI engine like a bigger cam and all that.
Actually my rabbit diesel was quicker till 4500 and then it got it's hat and left until 7500.
That 1.7 came on at like 2500 and fell really flat at 5k.
Even the stock 1.6 lived it at 6500.
The 1.7 was a little better choice for Chrysler though.
That 8v VW block basically lives today as the newer 1.8 turbos and almost any current VW 4 cylinder can be traced back to that engine.
just picked up an abandoned 87 Shelby charger for 600 bucks, with original 31,000 miles, interior is perfect but the exterior will need work, kinda looks like whatever barn it was in collapsed, all the glass is good though, i had a 1984 California Shelby rampage that i swapped a Daytona 2.2 turbo z engine into and, the waste gate solenoid got stuck on that motor and it over boosted to 32 psi of and cracked the hypereutectic piston ring glands on a 4 pots
My WAG is it has to do with the manifold, which should be easy to test. My thinking is this: A engine needs four things to make power, air, fuel, compression and spark. The compression isn't changing so we can throw that out as the cause, you know what the timing was and it wasn't changing. It didn't suddenly get more fuel, or your AF ratio would have changed. So that leaves more air. Somehow at that RPM it just had better flow, you had enough injectors so when it saw more air it was able to add fuel to keep the ratio correct. More air, more fuel, more power. You are smarter about all this than I am, so I'm probably incorrect, but a simple intake swap might eliminate the spike, or more it somewhere else in the range.
Perhaps the power jump is lofting the valves off the cam making the big gains until it looses full control and goes in the toilet. 10:31 though looks like it did it at a lower rpm though which would not be consitent with something mechanical going on. I am going to say it was either something in the fuel or timing control that did it.
YEAH BRO! Back in 1990 I had an 85 shelby charger 2.2 turbo. She was a ripper.
Hey Richard my brother had a 2.2L non-turbo and he took out counterbalance shaft and put a 2.5 L hydraulic roller head with hydraulic roller cams on it and it actually ran quite well.
People have had a lot of trouble with the 2.2l pickup with megasquirt systems. if i remember right its something about the trigger angle and it being in a bad point for the software (something like 25 to 40 degrees before tdc) relative to the rotor. Don't really remember the details clearly but when I had one in mine it would run but it wouldn't adjust timing correctly and would randomly be way off. Found the 84-85 distributer worked way better and was drivable but eventually just stuck a 36-1 wheel on the crank pulley and welded a bracket for the crank sensor on the oil pan. the actual 86+ turbo dizzy with the window was suppose to be impossible to get to work but I never messed with it.
Richard Holdener , that big power spike is just where that little Dodge 2.2L is realizing that it has some LS parts on it!
Finally a short video, thought you gave up on them and just wanted to talk tech
great video. I owned one of those 2.2 (normal version) engines. IIRC you could order factory parts to build those up to 300 horsepower, and there was a Mopar parts list that specified the parts for each performance level. Wonder if that data is still around somewhere. Shelby knew what he was doing, that's for sure.
the 300-hp motor was a Super 60 turbo
Awesome Dodge 2,2l engine testing
I don't specifically know the cause of your "spike" at the end (you're probably right about the size of the window) but fixing that will just leave you with other issues down the road. The stock crank trigger has always been a hinderance in these engines. Largely because it's belt driven (those not following along, timing belt drives the oil pump, distributer is driven by oil pump, pick up is in the dist. So... pick up is belt driven.). You would best be served converting to a pickup off the main pully or flywheel (TIII used a flywheel pickup in the bellhousing, most after market ECU users weld a 36-1 trigger wheel to the accessory pulley and fab a mount for a pick up accordingly). If you look at a crank signal with an oscilloscope on any of your projects that use a crank mounted pick up you'll see the signal is very clean and steady. If you look at the same data from this belt driven pick up you'll see it's very... sloppy. The belt allows some lash and the pick up reflects this. So even if you rework the windows to solve this issue, you my find the sloppy belt driven pick up is a problem later on in tuning (not to mention the stock bladed plug wires are garbage). But don't worry!!!... your cool LS pick up converted distributor doesn't need to go to waste. You can convert to pully mounted crank pick up and re-task the distributor pick up to be a cam sync pick up (because it turns in time with the cam) and run distributor-less ignition!!! Use any common 4cyl coil pack in wasted spark or 1 bank of LS coil packs or even COP in sequential. You could compare all 4 versions (stock dist, wasted spark pack, LS coils and COP) and see who wins... (more content to film!!). Great work!
waiting for this for a year
Great little motor had many of them.
The 2.2 dizzy has the Hall Effect shutters pinned to the shaft. The later 2.5 has them on the removable rotor.
Decent power, for low compression. A 150 shot of nitrous would be interesting to see. Maybe a more precise trigger wheel would make timing easier to control. Do you think a magnet pickup could be mounted onto it?
Check the timing belt and make sure the belt hasn't stretched. Had a brand new belt stretch and cause all kinds of issues.
Shelby said he found 40 degrees total advance to work on the street. The 84 Shelby had a special ECU with more total advance and a knock sensor.
That spike seems to be timing getting away then valve float at the drop off.
Needs a (Half) set of 340 valve springs or better yet, cut the valveguide boss down and run Beehives.
The stock 2.2 valve retainers are HEAVY. Beehives retainers are less than half the weight.
what is the stock total timing
@@richardholdener1727 On my Shelby I set the timing at 20 degrees advanced with the vacuum hose off the ECU. Then when the hose is back on it jumped to like 25 advanced. The special ECU allowed a total of 40 degrees this way.
Only watch this for the dynamic action. And validation
Can't beat the money to power ratio of a 2.2 turbo.
I drive a 1985 Dodge 600 convertible in the summer. It is a 2.2L non-turbo. 99 horsepower originally.
Definitely timing related I'm positive when you file the reluctor wheel down it will fix the issue
Adjustable cam gear and the larger V6 throttle body. Essential for N/A or turbo.
Fantastic video :-) I was NOT expecting that much NA power, especially with the low compression turbo pistons…I was thinking 80hp or under (my carbed 2.2 is rated from the factory for 84hp)!!!
Oh yea, I had several of these motors and ran the crap out of them.
It could lock horns with at the time the early 2000's stick 4.6 stangs in my 4 door hatchback dodge shadow.
Pissed off many owners. Most of them didn't realize they had to rev their 4.6 to the moon in order to get to their power sweet spot, good times....
Nice low end torque on these 2.2s, typical mopar. Your NA curves look right for a stock NA motor.
I favored the 2.5 turbo with the counterbalancer removed.
I never had the two piece intake but the one piece worked really nice.
I do remember something about the rings regarding these motors, have broken them for seemingly no reason except during a very high rpm pull. So I always kept mine below 5300ish. Not sure about the power jump towards the end, doesn't look like valve float. However, are you using the turbo cam with the NA setup? If I remember there was no overlap on the turbo one. Could be just weird things happening with using turbo parts with NA.
Also speaking of cams, if the belt is too tight or things are going wonky in the beltrain it could snap the cam.
These motors are susceptible to spark ignition dance too because of the belt. If it were me doing this I would ditch the distributor altogether for CoP. You got the box for it, might as well.
IN MY OPINION if the ignition was locked on the last two: The first few pulls with the overly advanced ignition timing is from pumping losses. Dealt with it myself on the dyno. Its soooooo far advanced that loses the ability to kill the motor but it makes terrible power (gets worse at lower rpm and will eventually hurt the motor if it can rev high enough) and runs rich. The power spike that youre seeing after you locked the timing out seems to be a cam/intake/springs/portvelocity mismatch or something.... but it moving is very suspect lol.
This thing made more power with the low compression pistons than my factory N/A 2.5L was rated, lmao.
First and foremost get rid of the 90degree on the intake and weld the flange flush and add a mini van throttle body also get a header or make one out of the turbo manifold.
Would love to talk we’re building a max effort 2.2 stock eliminator engine. Lot of rules. But we plan on being in the top of the Field at the US nationals.
I'm willing to bet if you extended or reduced the length of exhaust pipe after the collector, you'd loose most of that spike in power. I think it's right at the point where the pressure waves of the intake are coinciding with the negative pressure waves of the exhaust, so you're getting a super scavenging effect in the engine at that rpm. That exhaust pipe length looks about the length needed to make the negative pressure wave peak at 5000rpm (we make our step ups from 2" to 3" just behind the gear stick location) usually the place where the catalytic converter would be is the best for a 4500-5500rpm power spike. Certainly it feels like vtec inside the car, I liken it to a free nitrous hit
I'm familiar with the many different forms of scavenging on the exhaust along with the three major forms of cylinder filing in the intake, my question is why did the spike change with no change in exhaust pipe length?
@@richardholdener1727 it may have a bearing on the injection timing, as in the exhaust gas temperature and pulse strength based on how much of the combustion pressure is blowing down and how much is useful work. You'll know yourself that spikes in power like that are usually as a result of a massive increase in cylinder filling/scavenging. I wonder if you could replicate this situation on another engine. It seems to me that the peak power below this spike is quite low given the engine set up, so it's probably all the hp missing per rpm above and below it all coming to say hello at the same point
Right on Richard and Ish. Loss of signal from the Ignition phasing. I tried permanent magnets to keep the Prox sensor reading right.
Somebody farted in the Dyno room and gave a "natural" boost in power 🤣
Richard, was the AFR crazy rich up to 5500 RPM? I've done a lot of tuning with an LM3 and I find that even at 20 PSI of Boost you don't 80LB injectors. And I agree with @butcherbaker4258 many many thanks for taking on a Dodge 2.2 Very little Dyno data out there, lots of hearsay. Would really like to see some of the aftermarket Cams on the Dyno! (I'm also interested in seeing the timing sensor fix, I would love to ditch the factory computer it is ancient, very very basic).
was 12.2:1 -this was na, and the 80-pounds will support near 400 hp with e85 once we add boost so we have plenty of fuel flow (smaller injectors do nothing if the AF is correct)
I’m thinking you’ve got a combination of things creating the spike 1 cam profile designed for a boosted application 2 exhaust scavenging and 3 ignition timing 4 fuel injection timing 🤷🏼♂️
I'm going to go with induction resonance. Just like GM tuned into their TPI system
The stock cam and the later inlet manifold apparently like each other problem a lot less backpressure then with the turbo on as well might have found the right resonance wave
Have to fix the known issues first. Get the basic 'tune-up' fixed (reliable, repeatable timing control).
What does O2 sensor say?
What is oil pressure doing at rpm?
Then I'd put a foot of pipe on the throttle body. Have seen some weird stuff on 4 cylinder from removing the tube.
BluePrint Engines just showed a prototype iron block LS/Windsor 4 cylinder rated for 340hp/500 ft/lbs.
THAT MOTOR (WITH LS HEAD) DOES NOT EXIST YET AND THOSE NUMBERS WERE PROJECTIONS WITH BOOST
Love a good 4 cylinder
I swapped a G grind cam into a 82 Scirocco, and noticed a similar thing, the stock cam in the 1.7L motor would rev to 6500 but lacked pull power, it would just rev, but the new cam got a power spike from 6k up to 7k RPM, and I never knew why, but I liked it, so I wonder if it's your camshaft grind causing this power spike.
I only changed the cam, no other mods to my engine or fuel system.
it is stock 84 turbo cam
YES!
Not knowing the holley system, I'm suspecting that the loss of timing control is a result of loss of position recognition. If possible, I'd be using a crankshaft position sensor on the lower belt pulley, and a single tooth camshaft sensor in the distributor. The power fall off is occurring at different rpm's, dependent on your initial ignition timing. As such, I would ignore valve springs at this stage, along with the intake manifold. I would however add another couple of feet to the exhaust.
Are we going to see the engine again? Was hoping you had more on the engine. Hope to see more of it soon.
more coming
Interesting test to the surprise of 55° ignition advance?
My buddy had an 1986 Shelby Charger, he blew up the manual transmission twice, the second time they would not keep the warranty 😂
I timed my old 83 GTI by ear once.
Darn thing ran awesome.
One day I figured I should check it because I heard a little part throttle ping in traffic.
Kinda glad I did, it had like 28btdc and it's supposed to be like 6 🤣
Wow, no blown head gasket yet? Brian Tooley might have some insight on the intake, he ported my head, 2 piece intake, exhaust manifold and exhaust side of my turbo housing. Of course he may just want to forget it too.
Going to take a stab here, and if the ignition/distributor timing checks out, make sure that the cam timing is dead nuts on, might be too advanced. And you have to line up timing marks with a head that's tilted back. On the 2.4 dodge motors the little pin that holds the cam in place with the cam gear will sheer and your cam timing will be off. I would check the cam gear to cam alignment again just to be sure.
Had a Plymouth Sundance with a 2.5, wish I would have got a turbo, those are great little engines, that is a weird power curve, stock mine would fall flat at about 4500. I autocrossed it and had a blast
I raced so many of thise 2.2 and 2.5s when I was younger in my shadow and Daytona I'm 33 and had the racing bug when I first got my License in 2005
Awesome project. Would love to see pics of the cars these engines were first built in. Would love to see the engine from that Dodge in the 80's movie 'Suburban Commando'
I have vids up on the GLH Turbo
Wow! It made more power NA than I thought it would. I guessed 80hp on FB. It made (basically) what the HO Shelby NA engine in the '83 Shelby Charger made (110hp). As for that spike...I'm not sure, but it sure feels like timing. Check to make sure the reluctor wheel in the distributor is tight. The little plastic part that is attached to the wheel can become loose and cause all kinds of issues.
That is a very common problem I saw with the reluctors. I wished they had used a better material when I was messing/modifying them.
Dick Johnson Racing in Australia used to run in their 2L Cosworth Sierra motors NA on the dyno. Dick has often quoted 5.4:1 compression ratio, 90hp NA, and 540hp with endurance turbo tune. I've seen the compressor wheels out of those turbo's, there was plenty left
In July of 2021 I made a comment on the original video that you will make 241 flywheel hp at 7.2lbs with your stock longblock setup. Still stand by that statement.
The right intake manifold, exhaust manifold, intercooled on e85.
So bitchin flashing back to
1980's and the 2.2. When you were winging the throttle it sounded like a BB/FC Motor with its unique sound.
Use direct connection dual carb set up using two o.e.factory carbs 220 ..220 camshaft you'll get close to 200 hp..at the wheels had a 84 Shelby rampage
seems very high-be happy to get 180 flywheel hp with that combo
I'll build an OMNI GLH one day, but my current SRT-4 is too much fun with a 50 trim turbo.
THE 4V MOTOR IS BETTER-BUT I DO LIKE THE OMNI
Gettin on the cam
My dad had a Plymouth duster with a 2.2 n/a and the gas mileage was amazing at least 40 mph
Thanks, Richard, for your work with this 80's vintage motor. I'm currently rebuilding a 2.5 and, as my first attempt with this engine, I can use all the help I can get. Please identify contact info for the 'Car Farm ' as they obviously have expertise with these motors (as well as parts).
Search “The Car Farm” youtube and you’ll find them
I had an old Dodge Diplomat I think that's what it was with that very same engine in it
Cam timing spike leaning it out maybe.... sucking air at high rpm maybe, I'll bet it's something simple bad senser...crank trigger vacuum leak??? I have faith you'll figure it out, before you melt the pistons hopefully!!
Carefull when you cut the trigger wheel, they need to be full width where they turn the corner to come up, otherwise they fatigue and break off.
Is it possibly tossing the valves at higher rpms. Essentially adding lift and duration to the cam profile. I believe nascar uses a similar concept by having pushrods that flex and when they relax it tosses the valve for a slight increase in overall off the seat duration. Just a thought I may be way off on this engine and yes ik it doesn't have pushrods
Get timing right befor doing anything else! Sounds like the trigger combination or ECU doesn't work right. As posted below the LS-24X sensor is weird. Try a regular geartooth sensor or a 5V 58X sensor. For testing before I have used an angle-grinder to spin the trigger wheel without risking damage to the engine.
we tried an ls3 sensor and harness-no work
Not a good 80’s dodge mechanic on these Omni”s but it’s spiking at high rpm’s. It’s a intake issue? Something is opening up or the timing is advancing on its own?? Or. The genius idea is it’s more efficient at these high rpm’s due to low compression. I’m guessing it but I covered air fuel and spark. What else. Something has a mind of its own? Vacuum? Thanks Richard. You are the go to professor.
Well rich I bought I first gen neon acr... special place in my heart. Now what I'd love to see is throw a DOHC neon head on that bad boy. From what I understand it's a fairly straightforward swap and worth a good bit of power. Back when I was 17 I had built a 2.0 na motor for the neon I had back then and I got about 240whp (this was over a decade ago don't remember) but it was a fun car and I'm proud to say I believe I was the first to put a motorcycle power commander piggy back on one to tune it lmao car was a hoot though wanna say I got it down to 2200lbs and I didn't even hit the brakes to make a 90°turn at 60mph. And before anyone laughs too hard iv owned well over 100 fun cars and that was the one I missed the most. Nothing special to look at but for a spartan car with huge smiles per dollar it's the king to me.
240 whp na?
@@richardholdener1727 yeah but it was stock rotating assembly with love and all the head work I could do (worked at a machine shop at the time) header that I spent some time on and a intake that I did the same with. Don't remember the cam but it was a big crane. I think cr was around 13:1 was a long time ago lol. I know it was a blast and I used to go through trannies pretty often. Enough that the local supply dried up on the last one I bought.
@@richardholdener1727 but I would love to see a DOHC neon head on a 2.2 I hear it's a very easy swap and the neon head is pretty good. You even have the 420a Mitsubishi head that's the same but intake and exhaust are flipped.
If you're already running the LS might as well use a rail of LS coils and do away with as much of that garbage ignition system as possible.
nothing wrong with the factory distributor or the coil we run for this power level
@Richard Holdener I just have a personal hatred for those distributor caps and the push-through wires.
sounds like a centrifugal advance.
Cam is designed for turbo.
Intake and head designed for a turbo.
Maybe at higher rpm you are meeting desired Flow it was designed for?
I have the exact engine in my 87 Shelby z
DESIGNED FOR A TURBO?
Maybe I'm just stupid but, isn't the cam shaft factory ground for a turbo application?
Never thought it was just a NA camshaft.
We run same distributor with 3 of the 4 flags cut off and a cherry sensor stuck in. We just keep the one flag for checking TDC for full sequential. I have pics I can share with you.
you have a crank trigger then, corect?
@@richardholdener1727 yes
If the peak moved it definitely isn't a intake/exhaust resonance spike. Going to say ignition or even injector phasing could be the culprit. With those massive injectors your injection time has to be tiny - maybe 4-5 mS up top? The shorter your injection time the more important phasing becomes. Could be that at high rpm you're getting better atomization.
I originally wanted to try stock injectors-but did not get them flow tested in time
I remember the 2.2 charger and when I launched at-4500 it was always the best scenario outcome I don't know why but it always was faster launching it at 4,500
I like to use a DSO on cam and crank sensors, to verify good clean wave form, lol, I just heard you say the "teeth" on your cam sensor are too big, that's just what I was going to say......
Have you thought about getting rid of the distributor and going coil near plug or waste spark? As would it be easier to just use a different reluctor wheel on the crank for better resolution. I used a Microsquirt to run a turbo on an Chevy aveo 1.6 na motor and did away with the hassle of the camshaft sensor and use a multi event for fuel injection. If the timing of injection was of concern. Lucky for me the engine already used GMs 58x crank pattern.
Which sensor are you using in the distributor? If it's an actual 24x LS crank sensor, they are a biasing sensor and require the OE style crank reluctor where it switches from one side to the other. People ran into problems with them doing the 24x conversion on sbc's to run cnp ignition. For what you're doing, you should be using the sensor from the 96-02 5.7l vortec. It is designed to operate with the style trigger windows you have. Or the grey 58x LS sensor will probably also work.
we tried the 58x-did not work
Switch to GM coil near plug and a crank trigger.