FORGED vs CAST vs HYPEREUTECTIC PISTONS
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 พ.ค. 2024
- In this video we are going to dive deep into the differences between forged pistons, cast pistons and hypereutectic pistons. We are going to look at the facts, see how forged and cast pistons are made, what makes them different, what are their advantages and disadvantages and then we are going to make an informed decision on which ones are best for your engine.
To really understand how forged and cast pistons differ from each other we will first look at how they are made. When it comes to cast pistons their name tells you how they're made - by casting. The manufacturing process of cast pistons starts with a molten alloy which is composed mostly of aluminum and a few other metals. Once the alloy is completely melted and liquid it is poured into a mold (mould). It then cures and solidifies. After this the mold which is usually composed of three parts retracts and the basic piston shape is complete. After this the cast piston requires very little machining and it's ready to be installed into an engine block.
How are forged pistons made? Their manufacturing process is very different from cast pistons and there is no melting of anything. A long aluminum alloy rod is cut up into billets. These billets are then heated up and put in a forging press that applies approximately 2000 tons of pressure onto the billet shaping it into a basic piston shape. After this the forged piston shape needs a lot more machining compared to the cast pistons. Forged piston production requires a lot more time which explains why forged pistons are more expensive than cast ones.
But the manufacturing process doesn't just play a key part in the forged piston price it also shapes something called grain flow. What is grain flow you ask? Grain flow is the directional orientation and distribution of metallic grains within the piston. For maximum strength you want your metallic grains to be coherent, uniform and rounded off. If you look at the grain flow of cast and forged pistons you will see that they are very different. Cast piston grain flow is random and can even have pockets of trapped air in the casting. This is because there is absolutely no pressure applied to the material during the casting process. On the other hand the grain flow of forged pistons is very uniform and coherent. This is because the forging press applies tremendous pressure onto the forged piston removing any traces of porosity and forcing the grains together into a tight uniform shape. This is why forged pistons are much more ductile than cast pistons. But increased ductility comes at a price, the price is greater thermal expansion. Forged pistons expand more than cast pistons when hot, which means they need more piston to cylinder wall clearance to account for this expansion. This increased clearance can cause piston slap when the forged piston is still cold and this can cause increased wear. Cast pistons expand less, which means there is no piston slap and ultimately a cast piston engine will survive more cold starts and last longer than a forged piston engine.
What about hypereutectic pistons? They are also cast, so are ultimately less ductile then forged pistons but are a step up from typical cast pistons. Hypereutectic used to be a biz buzzword in the 80s and 90s but what it really has to do with is the silicon content of the piston. Any piston with more than 12.5% of silicon in it is going to be called hypereutectic. Silicon is important because it improves the wear characteristics of pistons, it makes them harder and thus lighter but most importantly hypereutectic pistons expand even less than typical cast pistons which have on average 8-10% of silicon in them. This means that engine designers can specify extremely tight engine clearances when hypereutectic pistons are used, this in turn improves performance, efficiency, fuel economy and reduces emissions, which is something that every modern engine designer wants.
What about silicon in forged pistons? 4032 forged pistons have around 11% silicon in them while 2618 forged pistons have 1-2% silicon in them (some as low as 0.2%). This means that 2618 are the best alloy for extreme racing applications while 4032 pistons are forged pistons that aim for a compromise, trying to give you the benefits of forged pistons while also trying not to expand as much.
How often will you drive your car and what are your power goals are the two main questions you should ask yourself before deciding between forged, cast and hypereutectic pistons. In essence your are trading engine longevity for power potential. The more power potential the less longevity you have. It is important to note that both cast and forged pistons have come a long way. Cast pistons are not as weak as the internet wants to convince you, while modern skirt designs and coatings are helping forged pistons reduce wear.
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Can they make custom designed forged pistons? If so, forged is the way to go. I'd add a cast piston guide/sleeve at the base of the piston to negate the piston knock. Cast for no expansion and forged for the primary and durability.
There are exceptions. Audi and vw have been using forged for over 2 decades in factory motors.
You forgot L-series pistons :/
u said cast was 8-10% & 4032 was 10-11% ... how come your charts shows cast wear still better than 4032 ... your chart is wrong then ... for wear from wat u are saying and correct form would be wear least hypereutectic >12.5% , Forged 4032 10-11% , Cast 8-10% , Forged 2618 1-2% ...
Crazycatman the GE and GTE are identical in the short block... the GTE head is allegedly a bit better, but honestly you can make more power than you'll even want (700 plus) with just a turbo setup along with a good fuel system and a standalone ECU. Good luck👍
This is an absolutely wonderful discussion. I live near Detroit, and one of my classmates is a piston design engineer. He loved this when I showed it to him. His only comment was that modern pistons are NOT poured when cast. Rather the mold is dipped into the liquid metal and a vacuum is created such that the liquid metal flows into the evacuated mold. There is no possibility of air pockets in the resulting piston. The narrator touches on this when he speaks of "modern" techniques at 11:50, but does not say it specifically. I was told that this process is used for two reasons, to exclude air pockets, and that liquid aluminum alloys will oxidize instantly, at their surface, when exposed to air, and this creates aluminum oxide (slag) that is horrible when inside the body of the casting. The older pouring methods depended on the slag floating on the liquid and not going into the mold. There was a certain amount that did get into the casting but until vacuum techniques were developed this was unavoidable.
Thank you for sharing that. Once you told me, it stands to reason.
It is so refreshing to hear someone actually understand materials engineering and their application. Subscribed
Thank you :)
Are you kidding me? This fruitcake is a starbucks manager or something. He doesn't know sh!t.
@@JustForFun77077 Educate us, then.
So, if you don't mind a layman doubt..
What if the cylinders are done forged with the same material of the pistons, with the same expansion ratio?
@@rlguerrero2263 well your doubt has actually confirmed your intelligence. The piston liners and bores must always be from a material that is not the same as the pistons/rings, for that exact question you asked about the expansion of materials due to heat. Almost always the liners are made from iorn-chome alloy, vanadium and molybdenum. This offers the best thermal stability, and wear resistance, as iorn also contains graphite, a natural lubricant. You will find the piston rings are also made from iorn, or some similar iorn alloy. The reason pistons themselves are mostly made from aluminium is due to the low mass which is advantageous for a chunk of metal flying up and down a cylinder 80ft/s. There have been instances when manufactures have tried other materials for liners one being nikasil, which ended up oxidizing and killing engines. There was a brief moment in time when they used to use aluminium cylinder liners for race engines, and they tried to use them in road sports cars i think Alfa Romeo tried it but the bores wore out too quickly and the engine was junk after 10k miles.
Without this video out there I would had bought a car, turboed it and ran forged pistons. Just to daily it, I'll pass. You are helping a lot people in their future builds. Thank you!
1k likes from bots i daily mine with forged and yes it does have slap. But I’m finding ways to help it by pre oiling before start. Also my block builder informed me of ditching my cast for forged. Because of my goals he seen the ones I had break. But wast knocking them (no pun intended)
@@claudedottin1312 I would of thought the same thing, probably gotten the same advice. But if they tell you to switch from cast to forged it is most likely the type of tuning you apply.
1k likes from bots tis be correct sir
@@claudedottin1312 well good luck on your set up
1k likes from bots lol it’s been 5 years ☺️🤙🏽
I’ve Been a car guy since the early 80s. And this might be the best piston content I’ve ever seen. Well done!👍
"What piston is best for your engine"
Me driving rotary : "why am I watching this?"
Wankel engines still have pistons--the rotors themselves. A Wankel is a type of piston engine, it works using displacement.
The motion is different, the function is the same. The original term for Wankel rotary engines was "rotating piston machine."
@@devilsoffspring5519 let people enjoy things
@@KontrolCZ ?? Not sure why you think I'm not letting people enjoy something, I had an RX-7 Turbo II for well over 10 years, modified it and drove it to work everyday. Pretty good little engine, fuel consumption was high though.
Because you might learn something.
@@d.haroldangel241 Better answer than my jibba-jabba, A+ for content if not effort :)
I've been working on cars most of my adult life, and I learned something today. Thank you, very well explained!
So. You're telling me I probably shouldn't put those 1000 dollar forged pistons i bought yesterday into my 89 corolla wagon with 251000 miles? Dammit.
Lol!
😂
actually if you got stock bore size it might be perfect hahah seal up that worn out bore
Your friendly neighbor Stanley. You’ll be just fine Stanley just make sure they were STD (not what the neighbor has if you know what I mean) and save the money on getting the cylinders checked. They will expand and fill then just fine
Your friendly neighbor Stanley just use it for drag racing as suggested.
I did NOT know any of that. I always thought forged was the way to go. Very good way of explaining this topic. Thank you for taking the time to put this together - I really benefited from it!
I'm a 35yr career mechanic & this short but fascinating video was so insightful. It's actually making me reconsider my current engine build project! You've highlighted so many variables based on final choice. Many thanks indeed. Subscribed 😉👍🏻
I really enjoyed your enthusiastic explanation, humor with your “Accent” on accuracy. As a retired ASE Master Tech who worked on factory turbo charged cars in 1980, then Grand National in 85, I used your information to reinforce my knowledge. Liked & subscribed!
Excellent discussion on the differences between these piston materials. Having had significant experience with all 3 in racing applications, the only thing I would add is that in comparison to forged, hypereutectic pistons are far more likely to shatter if anything significant goes wrong. For example, when a hypereutectic piston makes contact with a valve (say missed shift/valve float) that piston will often shatter and take every thing out--rods, block, crank, cam and heads. Often with forged pistons you are just dealing with a bent valve and a salvageable engine. Two thumbs up for this vid--you know your stuff.
I used cast hypereutectic pistons in my engine build. My engine is a mild 40% power increase over stock so I didn't need anything over the top.
My next engine build will have custom forged slugs, expecting a 95% increase in output over stock, not huge but the high rpm operation calls for something a bit stronger regardless.
When I saw the hypereutectic pistons, I was like, "they are making pistons out of cast iron?", this phrase is used in cast iron metallurgy; you have eutectic and eutectoid, the amount of carbon being below or above 8% respectively, but hypereutectic means it's right at 8%, which has characteristics different from less or more carbon, so I was a bit confused on this video. You did an awesome job explaining all this! People need to know the what and why, before they spend big bucks on their engine, daily driver, a bit more than that, it a full blown racer
You are mixing steel and cast iron Fe-C phase diagram, also it goes from 0,01% C to aprox. 2% C for steel and from 2% to 6,67% C for cast iron.
There is HYPOeutectic (meaning less), eutectic (menaing on the spot) and HYPEReutectic (meaning more) when dealing with Aluminium-Silicon alloys.
Anyone else here because they didnt know wtf a hyper eautectic something is
The only reason I'm here
Just wanted to see how in-depth and accurate he was. Spot-on.
Same here!
YES! can't even spell it. Hyperautomatic? What?
Apparently they’re wet biscuits
Very well explained, I spent countless hours researching online about the different piston types trying to decide what I needed. This sums it up perfectly in just 15 minutes. Good job.
I came across this channel and i find it really amazing on how this guy explained everything detail by detail.... i do racing myself for more than a decade but listening with his explanation i begin to understand more the important things that i needed in engine building.
Just wanted to say you have some really great videos. I've watched them all, and even forwarded a few to some friends.
Good stuff!
Looking forward to your next videos!
Well done, just what I was after, informed, logical and easy to understand while still giving more in-depth answers than others on what the differences and tradeoffs are between the different piston options, liked the visuals etc, it all made for a somewhat entertaining lesson. I really liked the little round up at the end reminding us that the best choice really comes down to knowing how you will use the motor and what characteristics will be most advantageous, many thanks from Down under.
Thank you for making these videos with real engineering understanding. It’s refreshing to see clear and coherent thoughts.
Great video. Just the right amount of information to explain everything without losing people with the technical.
Great video man, been doing this for 35+ years and you answered a few questions that I had about hypereutectics 🤘
Learned so much about this subject and didn't even get off my couch to learn. Thank you so much. Subscribed 👍
This is fantastic. Someone finally made a video that explains it all in brilliant detail. Good job!
The information on pistons and knowing why to choose each one in this video is OUTSTANDING! Even breaking down that there are still cons to having a forged pistons over a cast piston is amazing. This needs to be pinned!! To all piston video searches!
Great job explaining the differences and why sometimes throwing the most expensive parts at your engine build can be a waste of money.
Was thinking about this the other day , cool to see you go into more depth with it
The education I just got is INCREDIBLE, thank you. I liked and subscribed to your channel!
This is one of the absolute best engine engineering channels on TH-cam.
You videos are super easy to understand and a great comprehensive guide for starters! Thank you🙏
I've been building engines since 1967 and today I learned something new. Thanks for a concise and informative presentation.
Do u mean steam engines?
I love that you're diving into these deeply technical topics. I'd love to see more on different car components and what their advantages/disadvantages are for people considering them. A lot of people "over build" their car for what they're really doing with it, and videos like this might help them save money.
Thank you, glad to hear you feel that way. I have actually planned more videos like this in the future, they will cover various different engine components and principles. Thanks for watching and hope you stay tuned for more.
Excellent video and information. You are absolutely correct with the analogy of engines and shoes. My bugeye WRX was fitted with forged pistons, forget rods and steel crank when it was professionally rebuild by the previous owner. The piston slap was very evident when the engine was running cold once I rectified the valve tappet clearances. It's my daily driver.
One of the most informative videos I’ve seen relating to the topic. 10/10
Thank you for such a clear and interesting dissertation on what could be considered a rather dull subject. You have an incredible way of lecturing and that is a gift.
Answered a lot of questions, thanks i enjoyed that!
You have to be one of the most intelligent young men I have came across in my 53 years... This is by far the best explanation on piston ever produced on the web. Great job...
Sure appreciate your good sense of humor when acknowledging silicon/silicone. Been clicking away at your videos, I'm on a learning binge. Thanks for all the top quality info here.
I'll be honest, when I 1st saw the 1st few seconds of the clip, I thought that this would have been a waste of time… but this person is very knowledgeable and gave a lot of good information
Thanks, I learned something today. Nice clear straightforward explanation.
Thank you! Not even halfway through and already subscribing!
That was, by far, the best explanation I have heard to date regarding the difference between these. Not only from a metallurgical standpoint, but also as it pertains to the most practical intended application for the engine they are going in.
It's quite annoying to encounter someone boasting about their engine's forged pistons in a vehicle they use to drive back and forth to work or school everyday (and never the track), only to see the disbelief on their face at your blasphemy of disagreeing with such a piston choice.
I'll be saving a link to this video and sharing it whenever I encounter such a person.
Frigging quality video man. I'm thoroughly impressed, keep it up!!!
Thank you. I knew half of the things you said, but you filled me in with the other half, so damn informing
This is the best explanation I have ever heard
Best thorough authentic complete explanation ever! Simply perfect! Subscribed! Can't wait to go through all your other videos.. :)
So glad I found this channel! The explanations are well-thought out and said. Love the shirt, too!
I did enjoy watching this video, from Austin, TX! Great stuff my man. Keep it up!
GREAT video, you give the FACTS about the most misunderstood component in a engine, most engines are DAILY drivers, while it might be "suped" up a bit w/ a bigger cam better heads you don't spend day after day at the track, another thing you have to ask yourself "How many times do you want to rebuild your motor?", I'm personally rebuilding my sbc 350 that has 439,906 miles on it, it still gets 17mpg and 12 if I'm loaded down(7,000gvrw+)the cylinders are a lil glazed but there is Zero ridge at the top of the bores but its starting to get more blow by on the rings than I care to tolerate.
I'm upgrading my heads to better flowing ones along with my intake and exhaust(mid length headers to full length because they produce better power down low) but pistons will still be cast or hyper and I will use zero gap rings to further reduce contaminants in the bottom end getting into the oil. Yes most engine shows we all love to watch are dropping 1000.00 sets of forged pistons in like its nothing and flogging them on the dyno saying look at how much power I made at 6k rpm etc but this DOED NOT reflect the average guy who has a hot rod that likes to drive his car or suv on a daily basis. The true cost of doing a total rebuild is getting more and more expensive if you don't want imported cheep parts since our money is worth less and less every year, I personally like to drive my vehicles.
Perfectly explained. Well done. Now just get 7.5 billion people to watch it. I'll bet I spend an hour every day explaining the whys and wherefores of hypereutectic and forged pistons.
Well thank you tuner brother because I just actually always learn new things from your videos man keep up with the wonderful work here tuner brother
I was going to use a forged 2618 Mahle piston in my EJ207, but watched a few vids and went for a CP 4032 instead. So vids like this one do help us to make better choices.
Can you share the part numbers of the CP 4032 pistons for Subarus? I've never seen a 4032 from CP, while Mahle is known for their 4032 PowerPak pistons.
Ivan Delos Santos bingo. I’ve got Mahle for my SBF, they’re 4032. Don’t expand much, can run tighter clearances
The ej207 is factory with forged pistons tho ?
@@alexjaxon9928 Depends on the year/version. STi V7 used forged pistons. V8 and above went to cast hypereutectic.
@@19minorthreat69 no!! ...all sti 2 liters after sti v6, hypereutectic pistons .
for spec c .... I do not remember anymore
Fantastic video!!! You explained everything perfectly and you answered all of my questions and then some! You are awesome! Thanks Bro!
Thank you very much for this. Simple, straight and informative. I've long been confused about how to prepare for an anticipated project to rebuild my trusty 'pedestrian-but-wonderfully-reliable' 86 Ford 300 straight six now that I'm retired and the truck has turned over 1/2 million km. Its achieved this (and I have never seen the inside of the motor during the past 35 years except to renew 2 valve cover gaskets and replace one exhaust manifold gasket) and it still doesn't use oil between changes but that wonderful engine is deserving of major TLC and I'm currently having to weigh (financially) what is 'wanted' vs what's actually 'needed'.
I really opened this expecting you to get get half of it incorrect. You did a very good job explaining this topic in a way it could be understood.
Why? 7 billion people in the world and only you know pistons? Arrogant.
I've always wanted to know this exact info. Thx dude
Thanks for this information, you clearly explained everything I didn't know I should have been looking for when doing a build. Thank you!
Great video! I teach high school automotive courses and have used your video to help students understand the different types of piston manufacturing processes. Fantastic job!
You doing a great job my name is Steve from Annapolis Maryland I come across your videos and I religiously watch you all the time morning afternoon evenings keep up the good work
Do this video for rods! Heaps of good info here, thank you
Just discovered your videos and really am enjoying them. The level of explanation is just right for me. Thanks much.
I just read the reviews and realized you have made a great video. Well done.
This channel rules.
This is all information I’ve researched before when selecting the pistons on my 3S-GTE’s and also on my 1UZ-FE, but it was awesome hearing the results of your research because they matched my own. Makes me feel justified in my piston choices for my cars:
1990 MR2T - cast pistons, daily driven
1994 Celica GT4 - forged pistons, track weapon
1997 LS400 - Stock hyper-eutectic, rarely driven 😝
Very nice video.I just learned in university about hypereutictic alloys in general and it was really nice that i knew what you were talking about :D :D :D
thank you for always sharing such amazing information and packaging it in all ur videos!!
That was really well done and most informative. Thanks for doing it.
That's some great advise! Thumbs up!!!
Regarding cast pistons, i would say, from experience, the stock cast pistons in NA cars 90-2015 can easy handle a low boost conversion (max 10 psi). My mate decided to go for 500+ bhp on a 2JZ-GE for a club rally season '14, stock internals, worked fine :)
It's interesting that the aftermarket industry offers either cast or forged pistons to raise power potential, yet they really lack on hypereutectic piston applications. It's like the middle ground, where going cast is risky, yet forged is overkill.
Just an observation.
Most cast aftermarket Pistons are hypereutectic alloy
@@doddgarger6806, how can one be sure? Say I want to turbo a Nissan KA engine. How would I know if the cast piston is hypereutectic?
@@JoseRivera-ym3wj If you can't find any good info then call/email the people that make them. They should tell you the alloy and silicon percentage. If they don't then find a less shady company to make your pistons.
@@JoseRivera-ym3wj really have to research these things. As he said the terms get thrown around in quite the general fashion, though upon looking there is a lot of alloy play today. Any reputable business with give all that info.
To be completely honest i was thinking this video will not be any better then we see other TH-cam videos, but i was wrong. Finally someone here knows that how things actually work and the details were spot on... well done 👍🏼
This is an excellent video, filled with useful facts which are well-explained and easily digestible. Great job!
mate you are a jet at explaining this...subbed!
Alright you Zlatan Ibrahimovic of engineering! This is some serious knowledge of production processes, material science and machining. Great job, I'm gonna check all your videos!
i enjoyed being schooled on this topic.
good share!
larry
Glad to see someone along the time to explain in depth but in an easy to understand for people of not knowing of these things.
Great video! I never knew forged piston expand more under heat and Hypereutectic piston have less expansion then cast pistons.
One of the most reliable B18C engines I put in my civic kept the Hypereutectic pistons but better rods in NA config. I went between Vegas and LA for years without any issues on that engine. It was amazing.
What's your setup and power? Did you drive it aggressive often? Most Honda engine is reliable. Even b20 Frankenstein build will later at lease two years it said it's one of the unreliable build.
Are you still active? Currently building 2 b16 motors
Very nicely done. I almost bought forged pistons thinking i was getting an upgrade. My machine shop guy mentioned that forged pistons are noisy, now I know why. Thanks for the info.
Well said! I'm at that point where I'm looking to rebuild and this well presented information has helped me make the right choice. Thanks much!
So refreshing to see someone making videos with common sense.
Hehe, I like how you point out Silicon(e), now all that is missing is the pronunciation.
Silicone silly cone
Silicon sille kan
My buddy and I were debating what type of pistons to put into our little project and I couldn't remember the name of the Si-pistons. So after googling, the answer became clear, and this video was attached. Thanks! Hypereutectic pistons all the way man. The time of the forged piston is over. Those are only good in professional racing machines, where they tear into the engine every day.
Hypereutectic are alright but there is absolutely nothing wrong with forged pistons. They will not damage an engine in any way. If the tune in an engine is not correct the forged piston as more forgiving. Not matter what kind of piston they all need to be sent to a machine shop and have the oil clearances sized accordingly to the application. Poor machining and tunning is what kills engines along with improper maintenance.
As a machinist and engine building hobbiest for the last 25 years,
Great video 👍
Best explanation ever, great stuff. Thanks alot and stay safe in these times
thank you, I didn't know about some facts here... I appreciate all the info, great video and great help! ^_^
Great info right here!! You’ve got another subscriber!!
Great information, I have been following you for some time, and learned a lot from your educational videos. Thanks much!
Great video and great information. Definitely gives me more thought on what I want to go in my engine for my project!!
Great info for those who need to know...
Watching your early videos, I thought, this guy should speak out more.
Nowadays, different story :D
Seriously though, thanks for another informative vid!
Man this made me laugh... Thank you :)
Brilliant
I am an engine builder and you have put the information across very well
Thank You...I was given a 55 Chevy...6 banger...I drove it over 300,000 miles...replaced pistons once with a .040 over bore...but the crank was only half a 1,000 out...awsome... your point well taken Sir!!
Good job very informative.
That may be the best t-shirt I've ever seen in my life!
Thanks man this was exactly what I needed to see 🔥
I just found this video. I am glad I did. I am in the beginning stages of building a 4.9l il6. I thought forged pistons would be the way to go, but after watching this video, I'm leaning towards the Hypereutectic pistons. This really helped me decide not only on a better choice, but also cost reduction. ty d4a!
This was really enjoyable! (edit) “Engines are just like shoes” is now one of my favorite metaphors.
Excellent video my man! Definitely helping clear up info and dispel a lot of myths. Idea for another video that you can connect back to this one. Talk about knock, what causes it, and why different piston types are more or less susceptible to damage under knock. The hyperuetectic pistons in the STI engine come up a lot when people talk about ring land failure. Of course, 90% of them have no idea what they are talking about, so videos like this really help clear the air.
Good stuff. Sounds very unbiased. Keep up the good work. Thanks.
Dude. You are amazing at explaining and there is so much knowledge and wisdom in your videos. Thank you I have and are busy learning so much
a good Yt maybe one covering how silicone is added to metals in the manufacturing process like springs
all these comments and no one says how awesome his shirt is?! awesome shirt champ ;)
Finally!!!
Beat me to it by a few days. :P
lokiiddqd SONIC 💥 😆👍🏾😎
I thought they where anime H
@@joemango9782 those are characters from Street Fighter , i can see Ryu, Ken, Chun Li and Cammy
What a great, informative video. Good job. You kept it really interesting!
That was an excellent in depth explanation.
Cheers