Lunar Mining, Processing & Refining
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.ค. 2023
- After over half a century, it is time to return to the Moon, and use its vast resources as a bridge to countless new worlds.
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Credits:
In Situ Resource Utilization: Lunar Mining, Processing & Refining
Episode 402, July 6, 2023
Produced, Written & Narrated by:
Isaac Arthur
Editors:
Brianna Brownell
David McFarlane
John Kross
Graphics:
Apogii.uk
Ian Long / LITE
Jeremy Jozwik
Justin Dixon
Katie Byrne
Ken York YD Visual
Sergio Botero
SpaceResourcesCGI
Tristand3D
Udo Schroeter
Music Courtesy of:
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Markus Junnikkala, "Hail the Victorious Dead" "A Memory of Earth"
Stellardrone, "Red Giant" "Ultra Deep Field"
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Taras Harkavyi, "Alpha and ..." - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
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This is exactly what I needed right now. To hell with politics and culture wars, i'm going to the moon.
Next episode: Politics and cultural war in the Moon.
But she is a harsh mistress.
lol, that's all we need. "I'm going to build a solar / nuclear hybrid power plant and the Lunarians are going to pay for it".
Space communism
@@neologicalgamer3437 in space noone can hear you Comrade
Once again, with all the discord and anger in the world, it's so refreshing to hear a positive outlook for the future.
Scarcity is a passing fad is the most refreshing message that anyone with kids can hear. We aren't raising them to survive the end of the world. We are raising them to see the end of dependence on just one world.
Nothing said here helps the fundamental problems on Earth.
The moon might make some people rich, but it will also make most people descended from those who go there, slaves.
the challenge of colonizing the moon will be hard, but we will endure
@@GOPGonzoScarcity isn't the cause of most of that aforementioned discord and anger, and hence ending it won't end them.
Scarcity and competition are fundamental to human flourishing. Strength is necessary for survival and it is only obtained by working against resistance. If there is no resistance to work against, humanity, like a muscle, will atrophy.
Unfortunately, I think utopian post-scarcity visions such as Star Trek would result in the destruction of humanity within a generation or two.
One problem I always have watching SFIA videos. Sometimes the graphics or animations on screen are so cool that I'll be watching and thinking about those, then suddenly I realize I've missed the last 1-2 minutes of what Isaac is saying.
I have rewatched many of his videos for this reason, as well as to make notes. As an author, my next sci-fi project would be much improved with IA's input.
Yeah. It's commendable that the team goes through all the effort to produce original work.
@techpriestessmicaela8441y native language is English & it broke my brain for a solid second; initial reaction was: 🙄 Rokay, if you think so; after like three days, I punted Chat inEPT square in her mechanized muff. 😁
Happens to me ALL the time. I'm always hitting the
This subject is near and dear to my heart, to the point I'm going to write an essay-length comment about it!
I finished my aerospace PhD in 2017, but I'd been shoehorned into a dissertation topic that was basically Applied Math without any real engineering involved. As soon as my work was done, I set out on a six-month (solo, unfunded, hobbyist) research project to get a taste of what I'd been missing. At first I was inspired by Neal Stephenson's novel _Seveneves_ and wanted to give it the Andy Weir treatment, rewriting it with the most accurate science and engineering I could manage, but I wound up not writing any fiction -- I just brainstormed the technology. Half my time went into ISRU for moon rocks.
I haven't touched the subject since 2018, so I'm thrilled to learn about Blue Alchemist ... even if they just made half of my ideas obsolete. (lol!) I think of lunar rock as similar to particle board "wood" made of glued-together sawdust, only instead of glue it has oxygen, and instead of sawdust it has a potpourri of a half-dozen metals. At least back when I looked at it, it seemed the biggest difficulty wasn't removing the oxygen; it was separating the different metallic elements from each other. The papers on FCC Cambridge I could find at the time just yielded (1) oxygen and (2) a garbage alloy of all those metals mixed together. I'm willing to bet that if a human hit an ingot of that alloy with a hammer, it wouldn't dent -- it would crack, or even shatter. It sounds like someone has found a plausible way to address that since. (Either that or my initial lit search wasn't thorough enough!) And Blue Alchemist, with a working prototype, is just bananas.
The non-metals part of my research did give me a couple neat ideas, though. One is the use of basalt fiber -- literally just melted basalt, extruded the same way you extrude fiber optic quartz. It has roughly the same strength as fiberglass (without the epoxy matrix, which uses elements that are rare on the moon), and could be used for tethers or industrial fabrics. However, people are working on using aluminum in place of epoxy as a matrix for basalt fibers, which would allow you to manufacture a true composite material using only lunar resources. Such a thing might allow creation of composite-overwrapped pressure vessels (COPVs) with imperfect alloys for the inner tank.
But really, the thing I was most excited about (which is now half obsolete) was a process proposed by Donald Burt in 1992 and refined by Geoffrey Landis in 2007. It brings potassium fluoride (KF) to the moon and recycles both elements in a closed cycle. I realized it probably also needs hydrogen at a couple points, but that too would be recyclable, and might be extracted from polar ice if it isn't brought from Earth.
It begins be using electrolysis to separate the fluorine, which is piped at 500 Celsius into a reactor vessel filled with lunar dust or pulverized rock. (Note that this is _absolutely insane_ -- IMHO, "Fluorine at 500 C" is the Maximum Kerbal approach to ISRU, which is what made it so fun to research.) The fluorine both displaces oxygen in the mineral crystal lattice and combines with silicon to form SiF4, which is a gas at that temperature. The removal of structural oxygen and silicon and the creation of excess gas inside the crystal causes it to shatter, exposing more of it to the fluorine until it's all been transformed. The output of the reactor vessel is then SiF4, oxygen, residual fluorine (the three of which can be separated by cryogenic distillation) and a mixture of fluoride salts -- mostly FeF3, AlF3, CaF2 and MgF2. I added a step here to use a combination of water, hydrofluoric acid (HF) and sulfuric acid (using lunar-sourced sulfur) to fractionally dissolve the salts and separate them. Then, the application of molten potassium to the first two salts yields pure iron, pure aluminum, and pure KF; applying potassium oxide to the other two yields pure lime, pure magnesia, and more KF. Meanwhile the SiF4 could also be reduced by potassium, but if you need ultra-pure silicon for solar panels or computer chips, you would need to incrementally break it down with hydrogen and very high temperatures: SiF4 -> SiF3H -> SiF2H2 -> SiFH3 -> SiH4 -> SiH3 -> SiH2 -> SiH -> Si. At the end you have a tank of oxygen, a pile of lime, another pile of magnesia, and one ingot each of silicon, iron, and aluminum ... and a pile of KF, which goes back into the electrolysis cell to start the whole process over again.
If you have some hydrogen to spare, a fun possible side product is the silane (SiH4). Because it's fair to guess that even polar water ice will be very difficult to collect in large quantities (I mean, it's probably in the form of a light frost mixed with 10000 times as much dust), that hydrogen will be precious -- if you burn it for rocket fuel, you want to get as much out of it as you can. Well, if you measure your rocket efficiency in terms of "delta-V per kilogram of hydrogen burned", it turns out silane is _far_ more efficient than pure hydrogen. The only downside is the fact that the combustion product is SiO2, and fun fact, rocket turbopumps are ... uh ... _notoriously sensitive_ to the presence of molten quartz in the turbine. Luckily, electrically-pumped rocket engines became a real thing in 2018, so we could just burn the silane in a combustion chamber without any turbine. After that, we just need to design a chamber+nozzle shape that ejects the quartz without accreting it or clogging.
(Thanks for coming to my TED talk.)
Fascinating
LOL - to a person who worked with many high energy materials, fluorine at 500°C sounds like just about the ultimate ,- but there's also the energy involved in shipping precursors to the Moon, storing the fluorine and heating and containing it isn't trivial... there's gotta be some lower energy pathways...
Don't forget that Moon dust will be an unanticipated problem with all these projects....the electrostatic properties of this ubiquitous contaminant will present interesting challenges..
Continued use of silane as fuel, with an eventual buildup of quartz particles in lunar orbit, sounds a bit annoying for subsequent operations in lunar space. The rocket engines are essentially creating micrometeorites. Can the exhaust velocity be expected to eject most of them free of the Moon's gravity well?
@@larspeterthomsen9798 The specific impulse of silane is 340-350 seconds, which translates to an effective exhaust velocity of 3335-3435 m/s. (I suspect the quartz will be traveling slower than the water vapor [the other combustion product], but for now let's assume they're both at the same speed.) Meanwhile, escape velocity of the moon is 2380 m/s. So, when the rocket is starting its flight, all the exhaust would leave lunar orbit. But you're still right to be worried, because low lunar orbital velocity is ~1600 m/s, and shooting exhaust backward from a rocket at _that_ speed will put the particles in a stable orbit in the other direction. The real question comes down to how big the particles are, how much silane you're burning, and how much shielding you were already planning for all your near-lunar spacecraft.
It's a gonzo fuel for sure, just like fluorine is a gonzo refining technique. In my defense, all this was in the context of a sci-fi where the moon had blown up! >.
@@IgnisKhan Haha, yes, "Flourine at 500 Celcius" made me do a double take. I've read Derek Lowe's comments on the stuff.
You'd even have to be careful that you aren't pointing the nozzle at something important during your ascent. But it's hardly the wackiest propulsion method we've imagined. I believe Issac Arthur himself described a Nuclear Salt Water Rocket as a "Non-stop Chernobyl".
Your "essay" is a fascinating read, and bonus points for the shout-out to KSP.
I'm a simple man. I see a new Isaac Arthur video, I watch it, and my day is made. 😊
I’m over the moon for this; she may be a harsh mistress, but who isn’t a lunatic at times?
Since I have been watching SFIA I have had a much more positive outlook on the future and in life in general. Being excited about the future has made me a happier person. Thank u Issac, keep up the good work. 👍
Humans seem to take a thousand steps forward and 999 steps back
Back to our roots. Modern society has turned us into consumers, thinking only about the next new thing we can buy because of how advanced it is, despite the difference being minimal compared to the previous product. Influencers and social media has pushed for traveling around the world and women liberation has led to women pursuing careers into their mid twenties, when they used to start their families, but now they start them at 30+ if they ever find a partner, meaning parenting now starts way later and for some it never comes. Add to it all the negative propaganda about humanity, the push for abolishing the family unit and family values (notice the huge push for "found family" because kids are taught their parents are wrong and oppressive) and last but not least, hating kids is what the people love to be loud about nowadays.
Lucky for us, this is just part of the cycle and soon enough, thanks to China's crazy quick development and advanced tech and achievements, I'm hopeful for the space race to come back.
After all, the tiangong is bigger than the ISS and they already have better tech up there, not to mention the experiments they're doing too. It's just a matter of time until they land on the moon and they aren't too worried about the costs of doing so, they're going all in on it, so hopefully the USA wakes up from this fever dream and stops all this divisive bs they're playing for so we can finally all look up to a brighter future and share with them our dreams and hopes about the future of humanity.
There we go, another Arthursday with snacks and drinks
One thing I really liked in the book Artemis was that the life support system was fed from a giant Aluminum smelter nearby the main city. :)
New season: *arrives
Isaac Arthur: Moon time
You are 100% correct. The moon ought to be our first outpost, and we should postpone venturing to Mars with people until we gain a lot of confidence on the moon, and have ways of earning profits from our space ambition.
Plus imo we should not begin crewed Mars missions until propulsion tech drastically lowers flight time.
Why not both the moon AND mars
People seem to think that all you need to conquer space is Rocket + 3D Printer + Hype.
But this is the real meat a potatoes.
It drove me up the wall for years and years that no one was going deep into in-situ resource refining. This is a sign we're finally putting on the big boy pants.
Let’s go! Been waiting for more on this topic since your upward bound series! Keep up the great work SFIA!
I've been following a bunch of the ISRU test robots for lunar work builders on Twitter, seeing those machines come together piece by piece and CLPS missions get announced just keeps building the excitement.
Cool! Do you have a twitter link or? you can share? #research
I’m in hospital now waiting to get my antibiotic resistant tonsilitis ridden tonsils removed that went to Grade 3/4 in a single night, this exactly what I needed right now to distract me from everything. I promise I watch for more positive reasons most of the time!❤❤❤
Recover quickly, amigo
Update?
@@ebonaparte3853 I died
Apollo 11 launched on my 5th birthday. This month I will be 59 so 55 years since that first landing. I fully expect SpaceX to do much better in the settlement of the moon than NASA or any other government organization.
As far as I know spacex has no plans for the moon at all.
@@TheEvilmooseofdoom spaceX may not have plans for the moon other than helping Artemis with building the HLS. The superior payload capacity of starship and cheap reusability will be very useful for lunar colonization for customers willing to embark on lunar colonization. Elon himself isn’t going to fund lunar exploration and colonization but other people will happily use his launch vehicle for that’s purpose.NASA and many other billionaires will happily use starship launches to further their plans for moon bases and human colonization.
@@TheAmericanCatholic I have no doubt starship will be useful for anyone's lunar ambitions. They have none of their own though. Being a space hab guy vs. a planet hab guy I like anything geared towards that which is why I like moon exploration more than any notion of going to Mars.
@@TheEvilmooseofdoom Yeah the moon makes far more sense to focus on and build industry for outward projection.
@@TheEvilmooseofdoom
Musk is pretty sharp, He'll figure out that for multiple flights of multiple Starships, cheaper lunar oxygen to LEO for refueling will be an enabling infrastructure. You might be able to plant a flag on Mars cheaper direct, but you won't build a permanent settlement without lunar oxygen. And if he doesn't figure it out, and nobody else builds it, he won't be founding a Mars city.
@confrontationalapistevist4782 "Yeah the moon makes far more sense to focus on and build industry for outward projection. "
Yea, not just lunar oxygen and mass drivers for cheaper expansion, but more ways for short-term revenue generation.
IA: If we can use charged 'tethers' in lunar orbit to attract charged sub micron regolith dust that 'fountains' up at the terminator, then we can start building in orbit. Rotating habitats are better for humans IMO. I don't think we're ready to go up and down the lunar gravity well just yet. I think we need to build platforms at L1 through L5 first.
Nothing stopping us making a rotating habitat on the moon. Interfaces and linkages for command line units would need some special considerations to be safe and viable (wireless with multiple redundancies most likely) but otherwise having people on site even if it’s shift/term based like an oil rig or fishing boat would still make sense.
It’s also easier for us to build in gravity than outside of it currently out of simple experience and lack of smart enough automation.
That said? Nothing to stop a parallel development of shift based resourcing with slow and steady utilisation of the Lagrange points around our blue marble filled with countless idiots.
It's not clear to me what the benefits are of putting a platform in L1, L2, or L3 is; anything you want to put there needs constant thrust to stay there, since they're either closer or further out than the moon while trying to have the same orbital period.
@@boobah5643my friend, i think you've completely failed to understand what the Lagrange points are. They are the point at which gravity between the earth and moon are canceled and an object will orbit at the same period as the moon
Yes!! Thank you, Isaac, for reading comments and taking video topics from your viewers!! It's so amazing seeing your idea come to life! This episode was exactly what I wanted to learn about. I would love a part 2!! Thank you again!
This is one of the better episodes. I like equations and numbers more than broad generalizations.
This is a great episode. When you compare the energy cost of a mass driver to electrolysis for getting off the Moon, that's the content I like!
Radiation is a major roadblock. It comes in two major types (1) galactic cosmic rays, and (2) solar storms. Your best shields are (1) lunar regolith, and (2) your supplies. Using regolith as the measuring stick: (1) anything less than two meters thick only turns cosmic rays into shotgun blasts of lower energy radiation, and (2) you need four to five meters to match the projection of Earth's atmosphere. Expect 0 to 5 solar storms a year with a few hours' notice. Thise would be fatal to anyone on the surface.
Happy Arthursday early gang🎉🎉🎉
WE MAKING IT OUT OF EARTH WITH THIS ONE 🎉🎉🎉🔥🔥🔥
There's a minecraft modpack where the basic premise is just this, mine, process, refine and build the infrastructure needed to produce an interstellar spacecraft. I forget the name of it. But it even had Ilminite as a mineral you could find, and the means to mine the asteroid belt. The primary means to process all these was a mod called "Minechem" and if I had to imagine futuristic shenanigans turning one element on the periodic table into another, and seperating them out from other objects already in your vicinity, this is what I imagine. Minechem is a good mod for memorizing compounds and atoms. And I wouldn't mind if you checked it out and commented on how good or poor it is in terms of accuracy. Obviously with minecraft there is always going to be a certain amount of fantasy. But the chemistry aspects I would be curious to hear an "expert's" opinion about.
sounds like some mixture of gregtech, Advanced rocketry, and a few other mods
@@ligma6992 gregtech wasn't in it, but i love that you know that. no it was... oh what's the name of that space mod where you go to the moon and mars? i can't remember. it had that and minechem and ex nihilo. and the endgame mod was stargate. and there was a weird power mod where you made miniature stars! it was on curse launcher when it was still curse. probably still on overwolf since it was a questing modpack.
@@ligma6992 galacticraft that's it!!!!! and a couple expansions. you can go to Jupiter's moons. XD
@@AnimeShinigami13 say do you know what the modpack's name is? I've been rather bored as of late and it sounds fun to play
love your stuff keep them coming with the great quality you give every time !
It is so good to hear about near-term strategies for getting lunar materials for lunar use, earth orbit, and for enabling lower cost options for mars, asteroids, and satellites of the outer planets. Thanks Isaac!
Your talks about the future of space travel are always of interest to those of us that grew up on a steady diet of science fiction - for us older folks, seeing many of those sci fi stories come true is both fascinating and scary - one hopes more of the best case scenarios come true than the worst! Only by avoiding wars and other destructive forms of competition will we be able to move into these shiny dreams... here's hoping and praying we can do so...
Metallysis, wow.... that's a high energy process! I dunno if the terajoules needed will be available... maybe if fusion power is standard, or we come up with a new catalytic process....
Both the future and space are vast. There could be the most inhumane genocide imaginable happening in one part of the galaxy while in another there could be ten thousand years of peace and harmony.
In times like these, it is always good to hear and see optimistic visions of the future, especially as an aerospace engineering student at LTU grasping for any hope that I'll end up building orbiters rather than missiles.
the moon is the first checkpoint in our perpetual expansion of the universe
Nice animations for your article on the feasibilities of the Moon as a launch pad for further Solar System explorations. Thank you for this presentation. I hear and read so much about asteroids as source materials that it's good to be reminded that we need to start from somewhere close to Earth. Cheers and out😊
One power source I think might be overlooked; air; first you run a large pipe, ten feet or more in diameter. Along it's length you place wind turbines. With bypass pipes for maintenance. Have it run from light areas to the dark, along the solar pathway across the Moon: it could run continuously because the heated air flows to the lower pressure area, if the tube circumnavigates the Moon, a continuous wind would result
The shorts are working. I saw the one about Birch Planets and so I watched the Mega Earths episode and then put on a mix to fall asleep to. I've been subscribed for years and I still saw the short and went to watch the full episode again so they are working.
Oh thank you so much for this espoide, Im writing a book about the need to get more info on this. 🖖
Spacesuits. The Apollo spacesuits were wrecked in three days. The entrance of any human habitat must start with a large suiting/unsuiting room. It will need major equipment to control the dust particles. These particles have never rolled in flowing water, so they are not rounded off. They are major abrasives and subject to electrostatic attraction. They are a danger to all mechanical equipment.
Those working and living on the moon will rely a lot of robotics and virtual reality to control the robots. They’re probably also use mechanical compression like the MIT Bodysuit, and figure out how to thoroughly clean the regolith off of the suits in the airlocks after EVAs when they do need to leave the habitats.
While I have enjoyed the couple of shorts you have done. I much prefer your long-form content. I enjoy the lengthy explanations you give. I have liked every episode you have put out.
Good job Isaac thank you for your videos.
Aluminum can be used for wiring instead of copper. It's done all the time. Not as easy to work with as copper, and you have to take some precautions, but it can be done.
I hope I live long enough to at least see a lunar settlement.
Aluminum was used that way. Copper replaces it anywhere old circuits are refreshed. Lower resistance, lower amount of material to carry the same current, higher melting point, and way better to transfer power at both low and high temps.
No one in. their right mind will use aluminum in space.
Calcium might be better still. When you are operating in a vacuum the fact it is very reactive (and doesn't passivate) doesn't matter, and bulk is also less of a concern. Per kg, it is a better conductor than any other raw material.
Isaac you are a blessing!
The moon episodes are my favorite. More please!
13:26 In general, the government paying out money to anyone who can achieve specific goals could be a great way to colonize the moon without a specific government program for it. And it would probably be 10x more efficient.
Like X dollars per person on the moon per day, X dollars for a spectroscopy of that rock, X dollars per kg of iron, etc.
NASA
lunar space elevator can be built with existing technology - we don't need carbon nano-tubes to build it. Why not build one from L1 to Lunar Pole? L1 is easier to get to than Lunar orbit, and a station at L1 is a stable place to build. A station anchored at L1 wouldn't be rotating in orbit around the moon, so stresses on the elevator ribbon are reduced. The Lunar Pole has constant sunlight, while the rest of the moon has 14 consecutive days of darkness every 4 weeks, so solar energy is always available. The elevator can bring processed fuel & oxygen up to L1 for spaceships traveling back and forth to LEO. The poles are ideal for solar power and ice/mineral collection and conversion.
Basalt fiber composit has 3 times the strength of steel and one third of its weight. So it is ideal for lightweight rugged strucuteres such as pressure vessels needed for rotating habitats, tethers and beams. Basalt is truely abundant on the moon an " only" needs to be melted at about 1500°C to be spun out to the very fine fibers needed for the composit. The other component- resin- is needed at a fraction of its weight, reducing transportation expenses considerably. And more importantly all size restrictions from rocket fairings become meaningless!
Perfect again and thank you for your priceless time and effort my friend's to you both 💯🍻✌️
It's a trap no 🌙 ✌️🍻
"To the moon, Alice, to the moon!”
- Ralph Kramden, Space pioneer and visionary
Video got uploaded the same day I finished Artemis by Andy Weir. Perfect timing Isaac!
Awesome!
We discuss sending missions to near earth asteroids to get precious metals, but we should remember that it might only be necessary to have settlers or their robots prospect the many lunar craters for the remains of previous asteroid impacts they may strike it rich!
I love your videos! Great work once again!
A video on lunar dust and approaches for dealing with it could be cool. Yeah, it sounds a little topic and/or boring, but it really seems to be the main engineering challenge and maybe even a show-stopping problem for mid and longer term development.
The fact that the Apollo Lunar Excursion suits had lifespans in the dozens of HOURS because of the effects of the dust is pretty sobering.
Explain that Matt paragraph because i never heard of it?
@@cosmictreason2242 Just do a web search on the topic lunar dust and the suits. There are popsci articles (eg Wired), technical docs, and research papers about it online.
Big for utilizing near earth orbit and the mood might be from the "Two bit Da Vinci" article "Pumping Water Without Blades - Magnetic Pumps - Future of Propulsion?". This tech might make everything spoken about here much more efficient.
yeah, just looking at that low-gravity garden visualization and thinking of other stuff with pumps motors etc, bearings and bushings will be one of them things that will need to be mass produced given how prolific lunar dust clings to everything. I'm not even sure if traditional forging or 3D printing would be preferred for such things, given how fast something can be printed before it burns/boils away from the heat as pointed out in the molecular 3d printing episode (The Santa Claus Machine).
You assume they will do those things in dusty environments.
@@TheEvilmooseofdoom That was a bit vague, I should ask you to clarify what you think I am assuming. yeah, I didn't put enough if's in that while considering what was presented in this vid instead of considering other points of view (didn't consider just making it all on earth, or other never-colonize-anything options). As for manufacturing it all on Earth, well, that just gets less viable for sustaining a colony the further that colony is from Earth or the longer that colony is intended to operate, eventually you will have to make the stuff in space due to the cost of getting the replacement consumable parts out of earth's gravity well and to the colonies. Not using parts that wear out just isn't a thing, There are things called "maglev" fans and that magnetic bearing still has a sleeve bushing that is not some magic never fail thing, they wear out and fail just like any other mechanical device, and replacement of the worn parts is just a thing humans have done since the era of making flint tools. As for the never go angle, it's a bit meh aside from stay-at-home-societies is not what this channel is about. As for the don't bother angle, well, why have a computer if the fans keep failing, why bother having a cellphone if the battery will eventually fail, technology involves replacement consumable parts, it just is a thing with technological societies, and humans have already passed the point of not being one, lol. Also, that dust is a thing with all space rocks, not just the moon, so may as well figure that out closer to home before venturing out to other rocks (case and point, the Mars rovers).
@@Zarcondeegrissom It sounded like you were concerned about the impacts of dust on the hardware doing the printing etc.
Everyone keeps looking at Mars but ignores all the advantages of setting up infrastructure and gaining experience on the Moon. I am glad Isaac devotes such great attention to our big grey satellite.
Another good episode Isaac.
The experience doesn't transfer though. That's kinda the problem.
And talking about the advantages is a logistics argument, while Mars excites people for aesthetics reasons.
@@thearpox7873 "The experience doesn't transfer"
Perhaps not all of it is perfectly identical, but the big stuff you have to adapt to is the same:
1. Vacuum, for all environmental purposes the same though Mars technically has an atmosphere.
2. Low gravity.
3. Many ISRU challenges are similar.
4. Food growth challenges are similar.
5. Radiation.
6. Regolith getting into stuff where it isn't wanted. Moon regolith is probably worse so solutions that work on the Moon should be adaptable to Mars.
There are differences, but mostly it is the things that are ALIKE that are trying to kill you. From where we're starting, the Moon gets us most of the way to where we need to be for Mars. Gear, protocols, and processes which work on Earth and on the Moon are as Mars-ready as they can get short of Mars. And logistics is BIG. We can plant a flag on Mars without the Moon perhaps, but all the excitement in the world won't get you a Mars COLONY with methalox propulsion without a Moon base delivering lunar oxygen to an Earth orbit filling station. And the Moon can more readily provide goods and services to the Earth for a ROE and an operating revenue stream.
Yes! Arthursday again!
"Oxygen is Heavy."
Duuuuuuude ........
That's like so totally deep .......
Isn't lunar dust charged? I was under the impression that was why it stuck so tenaciously to Apollo spacesuits and why it can wreak such havoc with electronics and bearings. It gets in any cracks and is insanely abrasive. The positive side to this is a cathode should act like a vacuum while an anode should act like a leaf blower.
Yes lunar dust is a massive problem.
This episode is phenomenal. I'm sending this to everyone who asks me why I like space. It explains why I think going to space will help protect the earth from us, not just to burn through the earth and hope we can live elsewhere in time.
The future is good! But we need to be optimistic and focused and angry about the present to keep it that way!!!
I'd like to see a video focused in on the most cost effective way of supplying electric power for Mars.
My current favorite is low-Mars-orbit solar power satellites (about 90 minute orbital period) that charge up batteries from solar panels, then transmit it down to an antenna array on the surface while passing overhead, where excess power is again stored in batteries.
Downsides: Moderately large losses going into and out of batteries, and the low orbit means you don't get nearly as constant solar irradiation as a traditional SPS.
Upsides:
- Much less mass delivered to the surface (e.g. about 1/8th the battery mass needed for constant night time power)
- Still takes care of the day-night cycle issue of ground based solar (passing over the ground antennas around 16 times daily with a ~500km orbit)
- Keeps the space and surface antenna arrays far smaller than a traditional aero-synchronous SPS would (a huge advantage for an early Mars base)
- Microwave transmission will basically ignore dust storms making the energy supply far more reliable than ground based solar.
Look at Moon Industry based in The Netherlands. They are part of the Artemis, with the Break the Ice Lunar Challange and work on these things.
As an autistic school teacher and parent with four kids under age 11, these videos have been a legitimate lifeline over the past few years and have very much inspired a lot of my writing. My personal goal is to finish a manuscript and even if it never gets published, send you a copy to see if you catch all the references to SFIA-isms ;)
This is probably a pointless question, but how much mass could we have to mine and remove from the moon before it impacted the moon's tidal effects on the Earth (and hence oceanic ecosystems)? In contrast, how much mass would we be bringing to the moon to perform and maintain these activities. This is probably one of those order of magnitude circumstances where this question doesn't matter, but I thought I would ask any way.
This question is actually on the Isaac Arthur subreddit. 😀 Tide strength is proportional to Moon's mass, so removal of 10% of mass would result in 10% weaker tides.
Great episode!❤
would mining asteroids make more sense, than mining the Moon? Less deltaV to overcome.
Moon is closer and a lot of our manufactury and mining techniques would work with very little changes on the moon. For instance: on an asteroid, to seperate metals you will need a centrifuge, where as you can rely on gravity on the moon. A conveyer belt only really works with some decent gravity as well. Moon should be fine, but most asteroids not so much.
Depends on your end goal, and infrastructure available. For raw materials asteroids makes more sense. So if one is after rare earth metals in particular, or if you have a large refining center outside of a gravity well then going for asteroids makes the most sense.
The moons advantages are its proximity, and it'll be easier to refine metals there, and to build the infrastructure.
@@Cyberwar101 "Moon is closer" not really. not in the sense that matters. In Terms of deltaV, there are quite a lot of asteroids, that are closer to earth orbit, than the surface of the moon. In fact I would say the best way to make the lunar surface accessible on a large scale would be to mine water from Asteroids, make fuel out of it and use that to land on the moon. ^^
@@lunaticbz3594 "So if one is after rare earth metals in particular" to be honest: I am a bit annoyed, that every ones mind seams to go to rare Metals when we talk about asteroid mining. Those are at best pennies on the side. The gold of asteroid mining is water, not gold.
@@Cyberwar101 I am not really convinced. That building infrastructure on the moon would be easier than in space.
You really need to invent everything new in both scenarios. And not being in a gravity well means your engineers have more degrees of freedom to work with, they can choose the desired gravity for every process. Landing on the moon, to make your conveyer belt work seems like an extreme and uncreative action.
also, there are some hazards on the surface of the moon, that you don't have in space.
I just hope it doesn't turn out like the premise of the 2012 film, "Moon" - which, btw, is one of my favorite movies and I would recomment to any sci fan fan, even if it is depressing.
This and asteroid mining has been one of my favorite topics for almost a decade now. I wonder if there is any good type of social science research I can do on this topic for a doctoral dissertation?
How about as we remove elements , by the ton, how that will affect the tilt of the earth, the tides of earth, increase the distancing of the moon and earth. In other words will it be bad for the earth.
@@jlselc That sounds more like the realm of geophysics rather than sociology.
Social isolation, the importance of windows, living under constant surveillance, team selection by personality traits (like, imagine if you only pick schizoids for your space adventures because they dgaf about being alone for a year), the realpolitik of government A now working with something that can vaporize a continent if handled badly, law enforcement during early exploration of space.
That good enough?
A good option for social science study would be the effects of having to generate oxygen and other taken for granted resources in colonies.
Basically, how would the politics and social structure evolve with such technoligical issues in place?
@@jlselc I'm guessing you have no actual idea how much the earth actually masses.
10:42 - an 80-person team would need 70 kg of O2 per day or ten minutes of metalolysis for a 10,000 kg per day system. One minute would be for an 8-person team.
I think most if not all intergalactic space ships would have a fully functional VR town consist of those on the ship and AI NPC's, in this VR, you would be able to go to school/collage to learn stuff, maybe they spend most of their time in this VR working different jobs, making credits which could be used to purchase a home or apartment and anything you would want like a fully functional TV, radio, and a computer, a person could go on their computer in the VR to take control over a robot on the ship to take care of anything that needs attention in the real world, They could even date another person on the ship or a VR AI and could even have kids which the AI on the ship would combine their DNA together and grow this new person in a breader area of the ship, they might have to log out of the VR to exercise their real world bodies, I could go on but it would be awesome to produce an episode about VR simular to real life on these ships, This is why I don't think people will get board on these centuries voyages, kind of like being in a stasis on the ship but living out a normal life in VR
In a world with such tech, im not sure there will actually be anybody on that ship. If they can combine dna and grow humans, they would likely just do that at the destination. Very interesting premise for a story though, where the inhabitants perhaps slowly discover that they dont live in a small town, but instead on a spaceship.
What job would benifit from VR? Particularly on a ship, were you would be better off at a station to do that job physicly.
It would be more for being able to live out a some what of a normal life and also have the tech to teach follow up generations, more so to prevent complete boredom while seeding civilizations throughout the universe, Let's say, I was on one of these ships that had a virtual world taken along with it, I got myself a 3 bedroom house in the VR, I could watch recorded TV brought along inside the ships data banks, maybe sometimes I'd like to play videos on the TV inside the living room, before laying down on the bed I read a book, I just finished this book so using the augmented over display, I bring up the books located in the ships data banks and I take another book out and it materializes into a physical book for me to read, My body on the ship might be connected to my neural connections and I might have tubes in my arms, I feel hungry so I order food the same way I got the book, the food taste like the real food I ordered even though on the ship, my body Is pumped in with a high nutrient liquid, I decide I want to learn how to play a guitar, In the VR world, I can take classes that can teach me all there is to know about my interest, maybe I want to go sight seeing to different places on Earth, Through the VR, I can not only go sight seeing, but take in the smells of the beach, how the food taste, and feel the weather, It would be for stuff like this, In essence, your sleeping on the ship but living your life out the way you would be if you where on Earth, The DNA thing would be a backup just incase something drastic happens and you lose to much of your crew to repopulate for the ship or the destination,
You got me messed up. I was looking up what resources were abundant on the moon last night
Space/moon bases would not waist energy with flashing lights unless it was necessary for a landing pad at the time a ship was landing. For solar power the moon base would need to be built on the shadow/light line . That way the panels would only need to rotate for the 2 week light cycle.
Lights are good for morale. It's often why we use them on Earth.
You're wrong about the solar panels moon bases needing to be on the equator. There are areas near the poles of the moon which experience little to no night, while the equator necessarily must weather extreme long nights.
The poles are also where ice tends to be located.
"New Light on the Lunar Poles" -Smithsonian Magazine
Since there's no relative spin, I don't think the equator is even better for return launches.
15:00 - I believe the solar wind can also cause a charge to build up on lunar dust, causing a sort of atmosphere of dust over the surface of the moon.
Though this ''atmosphere'' would still be under 0.00001% the pressure at sea level on Earth, so basically a vacuum.
@@jackesioto
Yes, but it’s still going to get dust all over the panels. That’s my point.
@@georgejones3526 Thank God we've invented the broom.
It is interesting to point out that spinlaunch's current suborbital launch platform, if placed on the moon, could launch with a velocity very near the lunar gravity escape velocity.
A spinlaunch platform on the moon will help Cheaply and rapidly launching materials to quickly build out space infrastructure around earth and the moon. Infrastructure like space based solar power and counterweight mass for solar powered tethered momentum transfer stations to get to Mars and back quickly, as well as provide reactionary mass for planetary defence from asteroids.
Probably 30 years ago Scientific American ran an article on possible space weapons. One Lunar based weapons possible with known materials was a mechanical throwing arm that could spin up fast enough to actually throw projectiles at over Lunar escape velocities.
The spinlaunch design is flawed in multiple ways. The vacuum on the moon helps several major flaws: maintaining the vacuum, and hitting it upon release.
However, the inertial forces are begging for mechanical problems which you can't afford on a system which needs extreme accuracy to hit it's launch window.
What are you going to launch in it? Because if that material shifts weight it makes the prior problems worse.
You turn on the spin-launch, it accelerates. The weight seems to pull toward the back. Once it reaches speed, the weight moves 90 degrees, opposite of centre.
Then release, weightless, then eventually you SMASH in to an atmosphere, extreme G-forces forward. About all you could launch in the thing is solid blocks of metal.
Lower G-forces are attained by conventional artillery. See the work of Gerald Bull, who used retrofitted battleship cannons to attain most humanity's stratospheric research.
He could viably launch operable weather probes decades ago. Spin Launch would rip them apart, if it didn't destroy itself first.
24:47 i love JP Aerospace, but mate, that is an inflatable STRATELITE hovering in the background of a MOON scene. N o.
That mishmash scene makes as much sense as someone running around on fire while underwater.
Kerns. For has long has humans have moved around, they have marked the way with stacks of rocks called kerns. Plent of rocks available on the Moon for free. Your graphics should show all pathways marked with kerns. Some a meter tall; some five. Kerns and mole hills will define the visual style of the settlement.
You forget to mention the abrasive and static cling of the moons surface and how it acts like quick sand. The moon is like the worst place to go tbh
If you smelt ore for two weeks, the hot Metal might provide energy for the other two.
Landing sites. All takeoff and landing sites must be hundreds of meters from the facility and surrounded by a berm. Otherwise, the regolith kicked up by the rocket exhaust will sand blast everything. All movement of people and bulk will be by suborbital hops (never level flight)..
Maybe use the bottom of a crater for landing site.
Landing sites would be sealed/paved in your first development stage.
Typical farming on the Luna would be to risky, best to tunnel into the surface about 10 meters down and use artificial lighting.
I wounder if there is a way of implementing cold welding as a means engineering in space like a 3D printer but using space itself for the welding part
I was watching this again. And thought why not one of those spin launch thingies that they’re working on in Arizona? Seems a much less work and resources or in other words a more compact system for launching stuff off the moon.
Our first step should be on the moon. Lunar base, launch pad, orbiting refueling station, etc. After this is when Mars should be on our horizon. Rinse and repeat lunar plan on Mars, all the while expanding to father reaches of space like the asteroid belt. That's about 250-300 yrs of development.
I'm traveling for work right now, in a different city and timezone, all very unfamiliar and alienating. But your videos are like a warm blanket. :)
I've often wondered why static electricity collection stations aren't viable at the poles and in larger craters. It seems there's an obscenely large and endless amount of electricity in those locations which we could capture and use with very little expense.
What does a static electricity collection station look like?
@@TheEvilmooseofdoom What's a moon colony look like?
@@TheHonestPeanut No idea. I also know nothing about the collection static electricity, which is why I asked. Is this a technology yet to be invented? My experience with static ends with fuzzy socks and light switches so I have no idea what is or may be possible in the field. It's a novel and interesting idea though!
@@TheEvilmooseofdoom my point (no intention of being rude) was we don't know what all this tech would look like yet. A static field harvester would need an opposing polarity area, like a plate or antenna, that could use the fields that build up in moon craters to power a battery or turbine or some other energy storage device. I'd think kinetic batteries would be the way to go given to low gravity environment. As far as I know we don't have anything that big but I have no doubt we could invent them. Especially if America shifted a little of their military budget towards space exploration instead of war.
ROCK AND STONE!
I saw that researchers are now worried what a ”antropocene moon” would mean.
How much meaningful change could we actually do to the moon?
Are concerns for ”littering” or ”pollution” actually something to give any heed?
”Sustainable mining” doesnt really seem like an issue for the moon?
If Im doing the conversion correctly 1% of the mass of the moon is 7.3 billion billion tonnes (7.3x10^18). We would have to chip away on the moon for quite some time to change it that much (little).
First thing I heard: "After over half a century, it is time to return to the Moon, and use its vast resources as a bridge to countless new WARS"
I have a recurring dream in which humans have gotten past the hate for each other and started working on becoming a Kardashev type 1 civilization. I hope we can make it.
Wanted to suggest a topic for your video… Is it possible to make the orbit of the Earth (or a similar planet) have many satellites, and not one, the size of the Moon? or can there be many Earth-like planets in one orbit (for example, Earth's orbit)? And is it possible that there are examples found in space?
While the astronauts did have issues with dust, I don't think it will be that problematic for either solar panels or mass drivers. Every speck has a ballistic trajectory, and will only stay off the surface as long as it takes to fall when dropped from that same height. On Earth, dust stays in the air for a while, not so on the Moon.
Wheels can throw stuff, shoes can kick stuff, but with some care, I suspect a mass driver could stay clean for years.
They also can sweep the lunar surface first, and mark those paths, so you can walk or drive on that without throwing anything. Blowing stuff also works. If you generate some gas you really have no use for, it can be compressed and used to blast dust from paths. You might want to grind the surface first, so the road you make is easy to drive on.
You can also use the compressed gas to blast your space suit and/or Moon vehicle just prior to getting back on one of these roads, so you don't leave much on it, and the road stays clean. Also, as things develop, you might want to pave it with aluminum, or blocks of melted and then solidified rock blocks.
I wonder how one would be able to create hydrocarbon based components on the moon- manufacturing plastics would be…. Comically difficult.
What are your thoughts on laser propulsion? I personally think if it was combined with solar or nuclear power technology it could be done with minimal environmental impact. Blast a block of frozen propellant with laser, make rocket go zoom
@Isaac Arthur I have a question regarding 3D printing, considering the method things are produced via 3D printing being layers printed on layer, how much weaker would it be compared to a single cast mold? or is it a case that its design would make it stronger up to a certain point due to it possessing a smaller core to snap, but its not like there are any gravitational forces keeping each piece together either so its essentially the strength of the glue keeping the parts together. Now I'm not sure but I would assume the impact would be less considering there would be less stress being applied to the materials in space but yea. (apologies for the lack of correct terminology, I haven't had any formal training)
That's one advantage of doing these things on the moon. A tiny bit of gravity is a help in so many ways.
The advantage is not that 3D printed structures are stronger than die cast ones, but that you would need to bring a die for every shape you want to make (if you want to build out of ISRU, otherwise you need to bring EVREYTHING), and a goop extruder is smaller than just a single habitat die, and you can make any shape you like. (The extruder/printer for construction would be different from the 3D printer(s) for parts which might look and work more like current models.)
Can lunar-orbiting satellites using ground-penetrating radar do much of the work of searching for valuable ores to mine?
not much, but some.
GPR isn’t for finding ore bodies.
@@canadiangemstones7636 no, but it doesn't become completely useless once ore is mentioned.
Thermite doesn’t produce gas, so it alone doesn’t act as a rocket fuel. At least, not a very good one, you do get metal vapours producing pressure if you let the temperature get high enough, but chances are your rocket nozzle can’t handle that. And you couldn’t really use sodium oxide or similar as your oxidiser with aluminium or iron metal, since the resultant reaction would be endothermic, even Hough the lower boiling point of the metal produced would be better for thrust. You’d have to add some gas-producing substance to a conventional thermite to get thrust, like ice, at which point you’re probably better off with an alice rocket instead. Adding metal oxides to an alice rocket might be better for efficiency though.
Using aluminium metal and sodium superoxide might work though.
15:27 the amount of solar energy on the moon is vastly greater because the moon has ALMOST zero atmosphere, less atmosphere than the earth filtering solar energy. Energy collection is still our Achilles heel.
Yes, about 20% more.
What about nitrogen for plant growth, as an inert gas for breathing, for chemicals? Are there reasonable amounts of (extractable) N on the lunar surface or will it all have to be "trucked up" from Earth?
im suprised how little lunar gem stones get in attention just the idea of lunar emerald is enticing
I was three when the first moon landing occurred and I have vague memories of watching it at that time. I want to see it again before I die and maybe I'll stick around long enough to see us get to Mars as well...
How would the strength of steel or other metals be different manufactured in the moon versus the same thing manufactured on earth?
Subbed 👍🏾
I am a big believer in the moon as an industrial base. Mars comes second.
I agree 100%.
11:22 "...a whole bunch of shiny aluminum parabolic dishes..."
If we add a few kilos of silver delivered from Earth and plated thinly on those aluminum dishes the reflectivity would be greatly increased. And, since there's no pollution in the atmosphere (Ha!), there wouldn't be any tarnish to worry about.
Does silver reflect more than aluminum? Even hubbles mirror was coated in aluminum, mind you that had to be handled on the ground. Is tarnish the big reason?
@@TheEvilmooseofdoom I knew the answer but I did a quick google search anyway and came up with this quote:
"Silver coated mirrors offer the highest reflectance in the visible-NIR spectrum of any metallic mirror..."
Tarnish is the reason not many telescopes on Earth use silver on their mirrors. The silver has to be removed and reapplied every few years, though some use a special coating to extend that time at the expense of lowering the reflectivity somewhat.
I don't know why the HST doesn't use silver. Maybe weight concerns? Maybe they didn't know, for sure, how long it would spend in atmo before being launched? Maybe managerial types ignored engineers because Earth based telescopes used Aluminum and so "that must be the way it's supposed to be done."
I wonder if carbonaceous chondrites that impacted the moon will be particularly valuable as a local source of organics. I guess that depends on how expensive it'd be to get them from earth.
I agree. One thing that really needs to be done before any real planning is done is a much more thorough survey of what IS and isn't there including things deposited by impactors!