Yes, You Can Be Ticketed Driving on Private Property - Lehto's Law Ep. 5.32
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ก.ย. 2024
- I get asked if police can ticket you for a traffic violation on private property. In Michigan (and other states), you can be. I explain how and why.
www.lehtoslaw.com
Knew about the NJ "circumventing a traffic control device" rule for about 30 years. I used to deliver a bulk newspaper route. There was this one 5 point intersection traffic light that took _forever_ to change in the middle of the night. So the bar on the corner got a complementary newspaper every morning to give us an excuse to avoid the light. LOL.
I can remember about 50 years ago when the Lansing Sports Car Club scheduled an ice race on Lake Lansing. Someone from the State Highway Patrol informed them that they would be ticketed for racing (on the lake.) The cops gave up when dozens of complaints were called in for people drag racing at US 30 drag strip.
Years ago, I was in a Walmart parking lot at 3AM, the place was a deserted as a Walmart parking lot can be at 3AM. This 16 year old kid, just got his drivers license, daddy gave him a restored 1960s Mustang, the whole rich kid douche-bag package. Kid and his friend come out of the store and start doing donuts in the parking lot there, they come out of the donuts and just flat out gunned it into a lamp post at like 40 mph, no seat belts. Needless to say, they were pretty messed up, the state police were there almost right as it happened, clearly someone had already called them. They got the kid on so much crap, reckless driving, dui, driving on a jr license between 11PM and 6AM etc.
‘ Situation where you are interacting with a police officer ‘ that’s the key to staying out of trouble - Don’t do that & you’ll have less trouble 😊
th-cam.com/video/uj0mtxXEGE8/w-d-xo.html
I think there is a distinction between private property that is open to the general public (i.e. Walmart) and private property that is NOT open to the general public (i.e. the farmer's acreage, my front yard or driveway). For instance, the MIchigan Motor Vehicle Code states "A person, whether licensed or not, shall not operate a vehicle upon a highway or other place open to the general public or generally accessible to motor vehicles, including an area designated for the parking of vehicles, within this state if the person is operating while intoxicated." While the Walmart parking lot , gas station etc. is a "place open to the general public or generally accessible to motor vehicles", I don't believe that my private property is considered " generally accessible"under that definition.. I would argue that when permission is required to enter, it is no longer deemed "generally accessible". In other words, it's not even an offense punishable by definition of law when done on wholly private property. .
Interesting point. 1) highway, 2) other place open to the general public or 3) generally accessible to motor vehicles. I wonder about 3. If I got rip-roaring drunk and was doing donuts on your front yard, couldn't the police ticket me for that?
Then what is the difference between #2 and #3?
Guess my dad and I were breaking the law when he taught me to drive at 15 yrs old in a mall parking lot while the mall was closed. (No learners permit). I never realized he was such a bad influence. :-P
99.9 percent learn that way!
This shouldn't be legal, cops shouldn't be able to ticket people on PRIVATE property.
Funny story about a shopping mall. I’m an architect in California. I had a project, an addition to an existing mall. I would always park near the construction trailer on Weekly site visits. Toward the end of the project they striped the yet unopened lot for the addition. The space I normally parked in was striped for ADA. I come out and have a $500 ticket for parking in a handicapped stall.
So I went to court with the ADA manual for design, the CalDaag manual (California’s version of the ADA, and the drawings showing the limits of construction. My argument that the addition wasn’t even open to the public and was fenced off went no where.
So I showed the judge the federal requirements for H/C parking and photos of the incomplete striping saying that the parking space did not yet qualify for ADA. Additionally, California has supplemental requirements that were not in place.
Then, as I started to unroll the drawings to show him the limits of construction and design requirements for the parking he freaked out saying he did not go to law school to read blueprints.
My ticket was dismissed.
lol!
In regards to the rear ended at the mall story, just call for an ambulance and go for a ride to get checked out. Since that makes it an "injury" accident, my understanding is, the police MUST come and do a report, even on private property.
All those farmers out there plowing those fields with no seatbelt on
No law requires them to wear a seat belt . . .
Steve Lehto lol whew. Lucky for them.
They're not farming. They're "traveling." (Sovereign Citizen joke.)
@@stevelehto Or perhaps not just farmers but Amish - they're a perfect example of having never "opted" in to the system. The issue with those who are categorized by the "system" or identify as "Sovereign" - is that they want to be "half pregnant". They want to own some type of modern conveyance (car, truck, SUV, bus, van, motorcycle, etc.) that was initially registered and titled by the state (so then the state has some type of interest or claim to it before they bought it) - they don't want the license (which technically isn't yours anyhow it's the state/commonwealth's department of transportation that they let you "borrow" when they had one at some point. They answered some where in the past that they were a "US Citizen" not really knowing what that means. Their parents likely signed a birth registration/certificate as an informant or witness. They "got married". Lots of things get these people into trouble before they have their first run-in with the nice men and women of law enforcement - they simply want the benefits or privileges without the duties or responsibilities associated with that benefit. Most true Amish never opt in to any of this stuff - just think about how they go about establishing electric service - they don't have a credit rating, SSN, driver's license, birth certificate, passport, none of it... Add to that their last name is usually Yoder or Smith!
I'll have to look for any videos where you talk about the "sovereign" folks. An interesting topic - perhaps you can contrast with people who will just sign anything most of the time without even reading things.
As always great content - thank you Steve!
As always thanks for the free advice!
N.Y. made this one real simple, even for rookies. Under the New York V&T Laws, Section 1225,
"Avoiding intersection or traffic-control device: No person shall drive across or upon a sidewalk, driveway, parking lot or private property, or otherwise drive off a roadway, in order to avoid an intersection or traffic-control device." I have written many tickets for this violation, which really seemed to trigger a lot of drivers into demanding a trial, which I never lost. I even wrote my own Chief of Police's son for it, who was found guilty after getting a change of venue, which was requested by the ADA. For some odd reason, I found myself reassigned to midnights for almost a year afterwards. Huh.
The scales of Justice wears a blindfold, for a reason. Kudos to you, sir.
@@oibal60 Yeah but his chief doesn't and didn't wear the same blindfold. He should but some police officers can be a vindictive lot.
@@consaka1 a
Actually, the Chief was an asshole, and his kids got away with everything from running Stp signs, DWI, selling weed, and leaving the scene of a motor vehicle accident. The kid I wrote up just happened to be the only one I witnessed committing an infraction. Not a big one, but it cost him $100 plus Court costs, so I was happy. So was everyone in town, except the Chief. The following year I transferred to the Sheriff's Office, and worked Undercover Narcotics for the next six years. I hoped and prayed to nail one more of his kids. I knew he was dealing, but couldn't do a lot because he was was getting info on our informants.
When I was a young driver in Chicago, I received a citation for "Avoidance of Signal" when I passed through a gas station to bypass a red light.
As a 16-year old late for my summer job, I stopped at a red light on my Honda 150 and decided to get off and walk it across the street against the light. A cop comes around the corner half way through my little maneuver and I end up being ticketed for a red light violation. Lesson learned. A few weeks later on the same Honda 150 I get ticketed for going 50 in a 35 mph zone on a stretch of totally vacant country road. I paid the ticket from my meager summer job money, and two weeks later they raise the speed limit on the same stretch of road to 50 mph. Sometimes you're just screwed. That's life.
@@UpnorthHere Can't argue with that advice. However, as a pedestrian, have you ever crossed a street against a red light when the intersection was totally devoid of any traffic? In this case, I came to a complete stop at the intersection, got off my motorcycle and pushed it across a totally empty street. I assure you, nothing was put at risk except my wallet.
In high traffic areas in Northern Virginia (some of the worst traffic in the US), Ive seen police set up "gas station corner cutter" stings. What makes the stings so effective is human nature. When one person does it, many other people just mindlessly follow. On the flip side, I have seen police ignore traffic cutting corners when there is an accident in the intersection. Also, I have seen first hand police giving tickets in parking lots. In high school my friend was doing donuts in a snowy parking lot in his mother's minivan. An officer gave him a ticket. My friend pointed out that it is private property, but the officer said it is publicly accessible and his driving could put others in danger. Makes sense.
‘ you should probably be on you’re best behavior ‘ that will keep you out of trouble too.
My parents, probably in their 70s at the time, were out late on a snowy evening when Dad thought it would be fun to do doughnuts in a parking lot. When a policeman got their car stopped and approached, he was probably expecting a couple of teenagers. Dad said all he could say initially was “Uh ….” He then said “be careful” and left them-no warning, no citation-and no more doughnuts that night.
Actually in Florida, if you were in a Mall parking lot (or any other business) and there was a stop sign installed by the property owner, you could not ticket a driver for running that stop sign. The sign had to have a Florida DOT sticker on the back of it for purposes of traffic enforcement. I know different circumstances in a different state, but I thought you would find it interesting. Privately installed stop signs on private property are not enforceable in Florida. However, DUI would be enforceable. Go figure. Also, gated communities that did not have an agreement with the Sheriff's office, in those communities, traffic laws were unenforceable. I feel your pain, I moved to Nevada and all the traffic law in this state is "CRIMINAL". Just learning this state's (NV) law is time-consuming. Means if a LEO makes any kind of traffic stop in NV (no matter how minor) if he is having a bad day, or it is getting near the end of the month and he has not been to the jail yet, you can be arrested. I find this insane. Some infractions should just be that, infractions. Criminalizing the whole traffic code is just over-kill.
In Florida, running a stop sign is a misdemeanor.
Let's say that, hypothetically, the state was short on money. Not that that ever happens. Legally, what would prevent them from going to a race track and handing out tickets for reckless driving?
Oh God, don't give them ideas...
In order for me to gain access to my house in Puerto Rico where I have a farm, I literally had to build my own roads and pave them. It's at least half a mile from my front gate to my front door of my house. One night the Police came up to my gate and asked me to buzz them onto my property. I have a video surveillance system with a microphone. They said they wanted to talk to me. I said SPEAK.
I had to get a construction permit for insurance coverage for the crews who were constructing my roads which I did.
But my nephew was driving a tractor on my road and the Police wanted to give him a ticket for driving an unlicensed vehicle. I very often see construction vehicles on major roadways and highways without any license Plates and no one stops them.
I called the Police STATION and spoke with the captain. He radioed the Police officers who were at my gate to resume patrol and leave me alone.
So if your road is a private road you DON'T NEED ANY TYPE OF LICENSE PLATES OR DRIVERS LICENSE TO OPERATE YOUR VEHICLE ON A PRIVATE ROAD.
You don't even need any insurance coverage.
But now that we are living in a sue, sue ENVIRONMENT I have property insurance coverage for every possible liability that you can imagine. I even have PERSONAL LIABILITY INSURANCE to protect all of my assets.
Now you may ask me why I am doing that.
Ever since the UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT has ruled that the American Police FORCES are NOT CONSTITUTIONALLY OBLIGATED TO PROTECT THE AMERICAN CITIZENS UNDER GONZALES VERSUS CASTLE ROCK. I really see no reason to have a Police FORCE in the UNITED STATES since they are not CONSTITUTIONALLY OBLIGATED to PROTECT us.
As for traffic and motor vehicles research THE UNIFORM MOTOR VEHICLE ACT UNDER TITLE 49 USC.
Always heard these tickets could be issued.
Busy intersection with traffic from right, no control signal, 5+ autos ahead turning left, no traffic from left and I needed to go right. The person in front was white knuckles and missed multiple opportunities to make her turn. My decision to cut through gas station was met by officer hiding. Apperently this was his habit. He pulled me over and had ticket book in hand. Following your phlosopy about easing their concerns and being a southern gentlemen talked myself out the citation. Simply said that I had looked at the pump and the price was $.03/gal more than station 1 block away.
Late 70s.
In Texas, for a traffic-control sign to be legally enforceable, it must conform to MUCTD standards and have a sticker on it from the government body responsible for posting it. So if ticketed for violating a sign, one can use the lack of sticker to have the ticket dismissed.
I live in North Dakota, about 35 years ago I pulled into an empty church parking lot & spun a couple of donuts. As I was leaving through the other driveway an officer pulled into it cutting me off from entering the roadway. He gave me a ticket for reckless driving. It turns out that I wasn't the first one to do this & the church had given the police permission to put a stop to this by issuing tickets if they observed someone doing this! I'm sure there are a lot of businesses that would call the cops if they spotted you doing donuts in their parking lot!
Here's a hypothetical for you. A right turn on red is legal. There's no right turn lane and there's a car stopped at the red light that doesn't have their turn signal on and is going to go straight when the light turns green. You want to turn right so you turn into the parking lot and then turn right out of the parking lot on to the other road. You weren't avoiding the traffic control device because you could have turned right at the light regardless of it's status (red, green or yellow) as long as you came to a complete stop and yield the right of way to other traffic if the light is red. You were simply avoiding the car that was blocking your route. FWIW I wouldn't expect a cop or judge to buy that, but I thought it was an interesting hypothetical.
I learned to drive in our pasture when I was about 12 and our neighbor was a state patrolman. He didn't seem to care. Now when he caught me in town when I was about 13 that was a different story.
In my local jurisdiction the cops will write reports on private property. Once my son "dinged" a door in a parking lot and the lady wanted his insurance information. He called me and I told him to call the cops and I'd be there shortly. The cops showed up and wrote a report. Aside, the cop asked where the door was "dinged" and when the lady pointed it out he rubbed off the smudge. I "accused" him of destroying evidence. ;-). Anyway, since it wasn't an "accident", he wrote an "incident" report, which had no place for insurance information. Last we heard of it. Recently my daughter "mutually" backed into another car that was backing out of another parking spot opposite her. They were turning opposite directions and neither saw the other. Damage was very minor, but the cops came on that one also. I think they wrote an "accident" report on it. We've never heard anything further about either to date.
Absolutely true. To bypass a traffic control light, the offense is a continuing offense. Not necessarily entirely on private property, but the offense begins and ends in public roadways.
Most jurisdictions, offenses that strictly happen on private property, permissible enforcement with DUI, hit and run, reckless driving.
Here in Maine I believe there’s kind of an unwritten rule that a public way is defined as whether or not the city or state does the snowplowing.
Also common in Maine for beginner drivers to learn in large cemetery’s or the mall parking lot when it’s closed
I ran 2 stop signs in the parking lot while the police car was behind me LOL ( yes I saw him ) He waited till I got on the public street to pull me over. He said you ran 2 stop signs I said yup, he said I can give you a ticket I said umm ok, but I don't think it will stick. He got mad and said You have a warrant, I busted out laughing so hard I almost cried, told him ok arrest me. He let me go :)
Another thing to keep in mind is that some property you might think is private may not be. I know of a couple cases at very large malls where the main loop around the parking lot is technically a city street. I also know of one case where the property actual belongs to the municipality and the mall just has a very long term lease.
Working at a Gibson's in the mid 70s started snowing big time, at lunch time we went outside, guys started building snowman as lot was nearly empty, I jumped in my Olds 442 and proceeded to do donuts, the managers were enjoying our antics while standing in front, then comes Dalton Georgia's finest and issued a reckless driving ticket... went to court and had to pay.
In Ohio.. Yes you can. This is kind of long but the point is, I was charged with.... well read the story.
Several years ago I was operating a dump truck which would I could legally haul 19 1/2 tons. Shortly after coming out of the quarry and crossing a railroad track, some stone dust fell off my truck, similar to slush coming off you car in the winter time.. A State Highway Patrol trooper parked off the side of the road a eight of mile ahead of me. After I pass him, he pulled out after the three cars following me. Now, I had slowed down for the tracks to about 35 to 40 miles per hours. With a load on, it takes a while for a truck to get up to speed and with cars coming the other way no one could pass. Once I got of the speed (55MPH) and the Trooper was 4 cars back, everyone was on their best behavior.
Shorting a long story, he pulled me and said I was leaking material out of my tailgate (total Bullcrap) Being that his was 4th car back which put him at more then a football field away maybe more, I knew this was BULLCRAP. Next words out his mouth was a flat out lie as he stated that he saw my gate leaking when I cross the tracks (COPS LIE). Remember he was an eight of a mile ahead of me, how in the heck could he possible see what if anything was falling out of may tail gate. Also, if you are following a dump truck and something was falling out, how far back would you stay? A lot more than 5 car lengths, I would think. Which they weren't.
Bless the fact that they have cameras because I told him he was full of it and unlocked my gate and opened it and nothing came out. This was in total view of this dash cam and on audio. Well he thought he would get me on an over load so he ordered the portable scales. I also requested his supervisor to respond, which, by the way, never happened.
Didn't get me on the overload, but he wrote me up for "insure load" and said this is "only an $80.00 ticket" I told politely what I thought of him and told him that I would see him in court and he should "bring the dash cam tape".
Pissed I left. Later, I called the court when about the ticket, gave the clerk the information on the ticket.. She stumbled a bit and I asked what was the problem and she told me over the phone that the code the Trooper wrote down the code she never seen, was for "reckless operation on private property". Since my CDL (Commercial Drivers License) was now at stake and I had a lying SOB State Trooper..I thought "Game on...."
Got my ducks in a row and went to court. Plead "NO GUILTY". The Trooper showed up (OT naturally) I asked the Judge to if we could view the Trooper's dash cam tape.. You guess it, he didn't have it anymore. (Talk about destroying evidence). Now, as of yet the trooper hadn't realized his mistake of writing the wrong code down for the violation. So I politely asked him to tell the court what happened. When he finished I looked at the judge and shrugged my shoulders. The gavel came down and the judge said "not guilty" I thought the Trooper was going to crap himself. Then the judge told him what he had in error written on the ticket. He was pissed and caught me outside the court door and told me to watch my ass. I unloaded on him, and told him that if he really want to push the issue I would go to the State Attorney General's office and let them know how he destroyed evidence( dash cam tape), as he just admitted to it in court under oath.
I lost a lot of respect for the Ohio State Highway Patrol while driving truck. This was one time I fought back and won!
However more to the point, yes the cops can issues ticket on private property a least in Ohio.
Picture it. 1992. I'm in high school. I'm driving my dad's 1975 Ford F350 with custom exhaust. Huge and loud. I knew the driver's handbook by heart. And I knew I didn't have to obey signs on private property. I hated waiting in the long line of traffic flowing out of the area after school, so I started making a left turn out of the school parking lot even though there was a no left turn sign. One day after I made my turn, my principal came running into the road waving his arms at me. Being an honor student, I hit the gas blew around him. The next day he found me and tried to chew me out. I informed him that the law did not require me to adhere to the sign on private property AND that he had no right to punish me for driving around him on a public street. He was pissed but had no leg to stand on. Although I was a straight edge honor student, he had it out for me after that. But I was just too smart for him. Haha.
In NYC if someone pulls into your private driveway, parks their car and leaves, the police can not ticket that vehicle. If you move it yourself, you can be charged with grand larceny. I don't know about having the vehicle towed. I suspect that you would have to pay the tow company to take the car. If the car just parks across your driveway, the police can then ticket it and you can have it towed for free. All expenses are to be paid by the owner of the vehicle.
I have a young friend (really, a friend - not me) who was charged with DUI in a bowling alley parking lot. He backed over sign post and cops were called, and he was plowed. 2 previous DUI convictions so he is fighting the charge. I am shocked the state of Nebraska can outlaw drinking and driving on private property.
My dad used to let me drive the truck on the farm when I was about 10. What a criminal.
So long as you weren't drunk or driving carelessly or recklessly, there were no laws broken (at least it if this was in MICH).
@@stevelehto I won't swear by the reckless part.
Replaces all the books behind you with used ones in a variety of colors and sizes. Makes sure the binding is out on some, pages on others, and that not one lines up with another. Leaves open book on your desk at an odd angle with several pages missing and a conspicuous coffee stain on one edge.
I had a cop see me run a stop sign in a supermarket parking lot at about 9:30 at night, when the lot has about 10% of the cars in it, at threaten me with a ticket. I humbly apologized and it did not escalate. Friends of mine in the law school at the university I teach at said it was nonsense because of the private property issue. Now I'm not so sure (I'm in Florida).
philosophical question ... yeah vast numbers of folks out there driving won't even understand ya after using that polysyllabic .... 🤦🏻♂️
To issue a driving related ticket on private property in our state requires a written agreement on file between a private property owner and the local town/city requesting the local PD to enforce traffic laws on the property.
Thanks, I wondered why Flint Twp in Genesee Co. had ordinances about traffic enforement at the mall. Now I get it. I am still relaxed about mall stop signs when there is no other traffic.
In Ohio I was at a strip mall, they had lanes to get from one end to get to the other. It was an large Strip Mall, so they put in Stop Signs on that property to slow people down. I blew right thru one, during the middle of the day on a sunday with no one around; only the hardware store on one end was open and the grocery store on the other were open.
So anyway a cop tried to write a ticket on me for the stop sign, I kept telling her that was invalid as the stop signs were not legal. This was completely on private property. Finally a sergeant shows up and tells her to eat the ticket because they do not enforce moving violations on private property. The handicap laws were not yet in place, so.
I knew they were not real, as the guy for the city was my friend that installed just about all the stop signs and he told me about the city having to write an ordinance for all stop signs and file it with the county and state. He told me that those were not legal, then he told me to stop anyway. He used to put in illegal stop signs when the Slow signs did not work. He warned the Police not to ticket anyone.
Learn a Lot keep up the great work
From the flatlands of kansas
Had an accident in a retailer parking lot (Georgia) , other persons fault. Police said they could not ticket for moving violations on Private property only can write accident report, confirmed with the DA at the time.
I worked at an auto repair business from 82-89 . I use to do these huge burnouts on our parking lot. The repair place next to us had state police there all the time checking their books on auto inspections. One morning I was doing one of my huge burnouts with a large 30 ft high cloud of tire smoke. The trooper asked one of the mechanics what the hell it was. He told him it was just a guy who works next door .The cop just said oh. I never got any tickets for doing my burnouts and hole shots. I have pictures of me doing them.
Gotta love it when the cops are cool. He may have been able to ticket you if he had wanted to, but even the police know that sometimes you want to keep peace with your neighbors.
Pics or it didn't... nevermind.
Be carful. Violating a traffic law could be grounds for civil asset forfeiture.
In other words, THEFT.
Thanks for this video, very helpful. I used to think that many traffic laws were not enforceable on private property, but it didn’t make sense when you could think of a couple of examples. Your video provides a lot of clarification.
I have been told that if you are rear ended anyplace you should not get out of the car , you should call for an ambulance in case of whiplash . I think the idea is that whiplash may not manifest right away . I don’t think no fault excludes injuries .
Not sure about MI, but in TN we had an accident in a private development because somebody ignored the 'regulation' stop sign. Wasn't a 'moving violation' to the Sheriff, but he found out he's considered liable for the damages. Think his insurance paid instead of going to court (TN is NOT a no-fault state).
As a kid, I used to work at my parent's restaurant located on one of the corner of an intersecting streets. I remembered one time, a police was at our restaurant waiting for his food when a driver decided to cut across the parking lot to avoid a red light. He went after the driver for avoiding the traffic light. So I can attest to police CAN write a ticket on private property.
It is a coincidence you talked about not stopping for stop signs at Meijer's parking lot Steve. I used to work at one of the store at the mall near East Lansing. I would drive through the stop signs when I open the store in the morning since no one is around and do the same thing when I close the store. I was told by a coworker law enforcement can't ticket you on private property. I also did that at Meijer as well if there is no pedestrians around. I guess the only difference between the first story and this one is the traffic control device in the first story was on public road.
A good rule of thumb is to follow the same rules in a parking lot that one follows in the street because if "stuff happens" even if you find yourself in a situation where you are not ticketed, that will not protect you from a private lawsuit which can be time consuming, expensive, and messy to defend against. Parking lots are very likely to have video surveillance now too and you will look much better to a judge if you are obeying the posted rules for the lot. Another good rule of thumb is if you see the official road signage in a parking lot they are very likely a business that requests/allows ticketing by the city/county officials. If folks want to know the specifics of TN a good place to start is TN Code title 55 chapter 8. Google it folks :)
I got pulled over by police for cutting through a vacant lot that had once been a gas station to avoid waiting for a red light. I was about a block away from work and trying to avoid being late. The police were gracious enough to let me punch in and then come back out to talk with them and let me off with a warning. In Chicago, IL it's called "avoidance of signals" & it's a moving violation.
LOLs, we did that until a friend of mine got ticketed for it going to work here in Illinois. I might add, Illinois has probably more laws than most States since
they are hungry for $$$!
Yeah I was cutting through a parking lot to avoid a light and saw the cop as he started coming after me, so I pulled in front of the closed bank where the hours were posted and pointed at the sign to my wife. He was so sad.
Hi Steve, a related QUESTION/VIDEO IDEA: I have always wondered about the authority of off-duty LEOs hired by businesses, churches, etc. to direct traffic out of their parking lots during times of heavy traffic. These LEOs will stop traffic on the public streets in favor of giving preferential treatment to the vehicles exiting the private property. In our town, these off-duty assignments are coordinated by the sheriff's office, and the deputies are in full uniform with their patrol vehicles parked on the side of the road or on the median.
Do those officers' instructions carry the same force of law as they would if they were, e.g., directing traffic around a car accident while on duty? Thanks!
Also, the minimum speed on public highways in Michigan may not be less than 25 mph, however on private property it can be less, as long as 257.951 is complied with regard to proper posting, etc. A trailer park or mobile home park may therefore have a legal speed of 10 mph and it may lawfully be enforced by the police.
Can a city police officer write a traffic ticket outside his city limits? A little town by my house tries to expand their boundaries for revenue.
Now with every state having their Legal Code online everyone has easy access to The Rules.
Everyone is their own best self if they know how to act.
They should search "States Name" with Revised Statutes .
Exactly. It is also everyone's duty to read the 70,000 page US Tax code (If you read 400 pages per week, it should only take 3.5 years). And we should read all the thousands of pages of legislation passed by congress each month, even though the politicians haven't read it, and therefore didn't write it either.
If you see someone in the parking lot just pull up to him and ask him for directions (even though you really do know where you're going) then proceed in a safe manner and just by chance avoiding the stupid traffic control device which is really a people control device
A personal friend of mine was operating a CMV (Commercial motor vehicle) not sure what state. And he bumped someone while backing into a dock door with his semi. Was on private property, police arrived and the officer ticketed him but told him he only did that because the other guy was pitching such a fit but to let the judge know he had a clean driving record and he was on private property, he did so and it was immediately dismissed.
Little late to the game but in Texas you can get ticketed for cutting through the parking lot to avoid a red light, using a private drive to avoid a traffic control device I think it is called
I live in Indiana and a few yrs ago came across a statute that said for a private shopping centers roads to be under the jurisdiction of the local police an ordinance had to be passed with the local city/town and that a sign had to be posted at the entrances to the shopping center stating such ordinance was in effect. It also said failure to post this sign would render the ordinance ineffective.
We have a shopping center in my town which has more stop signs per square yard than any other place on earth. If you stopped at every sign it would take 30 minutes to drive through the parking lot even without any traffic. There must be someone in charge here who owns stock in a stop sign manufacturing company.
What if... you are turning right at the intersection with the gas station on the corner. The light is green and you would legally be allowed to proceed. You can see several slow moving people crossing the intersection in the crosswalk you would have to go through. You decide to avoid the crosswalk and cut through the gas station. You went on private property but did not do it to avoid the traffic light.
Does the cop require owner permission in order to come onto private property for the purpose of ticketing someone?
kaddiddle hopper I had a local deputy come deep onto private property after I’d landed my paramotor, under the bogus “concern”...of if I’d intended to land there or not. I was none too happy. I have permission from the land owner and wanted none of what could come of a perception, or mis conception that the cop’s presence might initiate amoungst either the land owner’s wife & family or adjacent neighbors. He was nice enough and quick to want to leave, once he realized my activity was intentional, legal and with approval from the land owner. but I really didnt want the attention he brought nor any potential escalation, because loosing permission or access because of perception his very presence could have caused would have been devastating.
6m38
I don't undestand what cops could possibly do even on public road for a fender bender they didn't witness.
They'll have to go with whatever opposing parties tell them.
So in Europe, there's zero chance they will come , unless off course the other party is drunk, beligerent or if there was injury.
Avoiding traffic signals is illegal in most states. It should not be a shock to anyone to get a ticket or even two for driving through the 7-11 to blow a red light.
Traffic enforcement in public access private property, like retail parking lots, makes sense. It should not be a shock that blowing a stop sign at Meijer or K-Mart could get you a ticket. There are usually plenty of rows in big parking lots at the mall, WalMart, Meijer, Hannaford, Price Chopper, Home Depot, etc that don't have stop signs... just pick a different row and don't drive in the lots like you're Dale Earnhardt.
The constabulary trespassing on your own or families very large 60, 70, 150, ... acre private property to ticket you for driving in a field or in the woods or up your miles long driveway without witnessing you driving said vehicle on the public roads is questionable at best. Could they do it if there's a personal grudge? I bet some hothead officer would try it out and force you to run it through the courts. Trespassing past a locked or closed and posted gate to serve a traffic ticket for infractions on said posted and barred private property with no public access means they are pretty sure they have the court and prosecutors office on their side so they figure they can get away with skirting whatever law they are bending to illegally trespass. That's unfortunately the nature of our present police state.
1980 I got the ticket for avoiding the doing the exact same thing going through gas station parking lot on the corner in Peoria at Gale and University told the cop the gas price was too high so I was going elsewhere he did not buy it. Locally in the past I have read in the newspaper people getting tickets on ATVs and garden tractors for drunk driving on private property. And I'm with you I blow those stop signs at the mall also when nobody is around.
Damn. That's a shirt!
I always heard that the police won't come onto private property like a shopping center to write an accident report?
So if I'm on my own land and drinking a beer while mowing my lawn I'm a criminal ?
Nah , , unless u throw the empty beer cans on public sidewalk , , , ha , , har , , ,
In some states, yes you can get either a DWI or an open container violation.
In Georgia, yes.
I know in California is kind of the same thing. They can give you a ticket on private property unless its not easily accessible to the public like if there's a gate or someone to deny entry
Its interesting that you mention that traffic signs have to be the same as used on public roads. The stop signs at plazas here in Maine are usually smaller.
I got a ticket for cutting through a gas station in Clinton twp...circa 1988...boooo
When it comes to handicap parking places, federal law comes into play: the Americans With Disabilities Act.
I know in New South Wales Australia, a place opened to and used by the public you can get a ticket for traffic offences, but if the property has a gate or chain across the drive, it then becomes private property. The Police then have no power.
I've been ticketed twice for speeding on private property - Disney World, they invite the Orange County Sheriff's office onto their property to enforce traffic laws.
Many places you must come to a complete stop when cutting the corner. Otherwise your intent is to avoid the control device. If you come to a stop then your intent could be anything .
In Northville Michigan, 2004, I got a ticket for cutting through a Home Depot parking lot. It happens.
Most of these I understand, but how or why would they try to enforce a license requirement??? I’d like to see a challenge to that.
Examples are kids driving on the farm or estate, recreation activities like riding a motorcycle, etc.
Just about every state has their laws online:
New York State Vehicle & Traffic Law, Article 33 § 1225. Avoiding intersection or traffic-control device. No person shall drive across or upon a sidewalk, driveway, parking lot or private property, or otherwise drive off a roadway, in order to avoid an intersection or traffic-control device.
Also: § 1218. Crossing fire hose. No vehicle shall be driven over any unprotected hose of a fire department when laid down on any street or private driveway, to be used at any fire or alarm of fire, without the consent of the fire department official in command.
As I understand the law in GA, there must be a government sticker on the back of a sign if the police are going to enforce it.
I have never seen one on the back of a Stop sign on Walmart property.
Man yrs ago got a dui on his lawnmower on his own land he was next to the road on his own grass. For operating a motor vehicle. Yet the governor of this state got pulled over flat out drunk the state trooper sent them back to their house in another car and towed their vehicle back to the governor's mansion. I guess laws do not apply to common citizens. Us customs agents can show up to dv calls with the sheriff. The 100 mile rule. Here they have killed 2 people. One man a brother at night on his brothers 10 acres and had a flashlight. They said he charged at them no gun. They shot him 11 or 13 times no investigation paper said they are just happy no officers were hurt. Out here on state highways it goes through an indian reservation for 3 miles. We pay for them to hire train and buy the car and equipment. This is on a state highway. They tried doing this also in arizona with a tribe shut down a highway where the tribe was charging us citizens a fee to go through the reservation. I remember the governor had to call out the national guard. Under the constitution only a state surveyor can enter private property here or a game warden. How they look for stolen goods. The us customs here has a way of cutting locked gates on farm land pissing everyone around here. You go through the border now they can hold you for 90 days without an atty or trial and they can take all electronic devices. This was passed in 2016 i have a copy of the paperwork. Most cops here where never fired they come from another state where the us justice dept said quit or be fired.
I think it does vary from state to state my friend. In Tennessee, they will nail you. However, if you have a fender bender on private property, they won't give you the time of day. Florida used to be the same...not sure about now
Good info.
Stop signs in parking lots... suck. Thanks, I now know to look for cops b4 running thru them.
I've noticed that most stop signs in parking lots are quite a bit lower than those out on the streets. If a cop tries to ticket me for blowing through a parking lot stop sign, I will just say it doesn't comply with the traffic regulations.
There is an urban legend around here (Northeastern North Carolina) of a farmer and owner of several hundred acres driving his truck on his property. He was known to the deputy sheriff's to have a suspended licence. They were patrolling the road that ran through his property effectively splitting into two parcels and witnessed him driving his truck in the back his field hundreds of yards from the road. The owner of the property did not drive on the road to get there. He never left his property. The deputy drove down a path onto the person's property, got out of his car and proceeded to try to arrest the gentleman for driving on a suspended license. There was some resistance from the farmer and the deputy called for backup. A Highway Patrolman showed up and stopped the deputy from further acting and highly suggested he leave the gentleman's property before he arrested him for trespassing. So I think on private property (a field owned by oneself for example) the rules of the road don't necessarily apply.
I'd call all of that bunk. What would they have done if he was on a tractor? Yes, some tractors have lights and plates for road use. In any event, if on your own property and not causing harm to others off the property ( excessive noise/ dust ) you can drive around. However, if you are on property owned by another person doing something illegal, you can be ticketed.
Think of it this way. If someone was driving over your yard, would you accept the drivers claim that he can't be punished?
If the police are given the task with maintaining the law somewhere they can write tickets there. If the police get called to Wallmart for a crime then anytime they go there they can write tickets.
I live in Ohio. While we don't tend to have too much on the state books about cutting onto private property in general, most cities/counties have specific ordinances to that effect, often posted everywhere.
As far as other laws on private property, not so much. As long as you avoid the state roads and highways, you are good on your own property. I know people who have dozens or hundreds of acres of private property. You are not obliged to have insurance or a license, as long as you don't cross a government owned road. But private property opened to the public is very different, like Walmart.
Driveways are complicated, because there is a presumption that you are about to enter the government's streets.
i got ticketed at my apartment complex...private way and i was parked wrong direction during snowstorm..the city does not plow or take care of it it anyway ..i was pissed and went down to the police and they said there is no " private way " sign up anywhere near the entrance and it is on the apartment complex sign appx 100 feet from the main road..people think this a public road until they see the complex sign. ..he said tell the owners to put private way right at the street and wont be a problem...
Retired cop I would look up the definition of highway in the jurisdiction in question . The road allowance is greater than what some people believe and there for it may not be private property.
You can get ticketed in SC for cutting a corner (on a private property) IF you are defeating a traffic signal. However, if there is no traffic signal, you would probably get away with it. But not 100%.
Jeep Wrangler? I knew I liked you. I drive a 2000 Jeep wrangler. By the way, the toupee is looking great! Almost natural.
In NJ it is called avoiding a traffic control device. And yes it is a ticketable offense
I believe up here they can if they avoid traffic signs or lights on private property
I have one for you Steve. Can you get a traffic violation ticket on a non public way, private property?
private property is private property no matter how you word it, the definition of private property is property that is owned by a person/persons or an entity which by definition means there is absolutely no such thing as public property
If you own the property, have permission to use it or are involved in an event where the event organizers have access to said property, you can't UNLESS if you're in an event, they have a speed limit posted and you exceed it for example, then you can be ticketed. However, I have seen cops ticket people for riding ATV's/Dirt bikes on private property they own because it violates a town ordinance for noise. The problem is that if the officer comes onto the property, he can be sued for trespass in civil court. They always claim immunity though so it's a bit of a grey area. It's also fairly easy to beat because a cop needs a sound meter and a complaint from a neighbor normally.
With Michigan law then, on a privately owned demolition derby track, every driver could be ticketed for reckless driving. Every time.
Don’t believe Oregon law has changed in last twenty years but any private property open to public access (including your own driveway) police can write DUI, careless and wreck less. Put a locked gat at entrance blocking public from entering they can’t.
Adams and Maple. Fidelity Bank ( Rose family).
Steve, I have it on good authority, in fact I've witnessed it happening, that a large group of reckless drivers show up at least twice a year in Brooklyn, MI and drive in a very reckless manner. These guys damn near quadruple the maximum speed limit allowed on Michigan roads and do so for many miles each time they get together. Worse, they cause wrecks almost every time they congregate. I've even seen multiple state and local authorities on hand each time the get together. Shockingly, these members of law enforcement actually seem to helping these law breakers facilitate their reckless endeavor. Do you think those LEOs are on the take from those miscreants?
Thank you for the great in-depth explanation. Meijer Thrifty Acres, I haven't heard that in a while. :-)