That's because those putting up statues of Lenin and tearing down statues of Lincoln and the Founding Fathers are the same people. Left wing Bolshevik Marxists who seek to destroy America. And they're being taught by anti American Communist professors in the cancerous tumors called universities.
@@jwf2125 when is it ok to suspend constitutional rights, imprison citizens who disagree with your gov? If the answer is “never”, then you might think Lincoln was a tyrant. If your answer is “in order to save the republic”, then he wouldn’t be. Was the strengthening of federal power a good thing or a bad thing? In this case the reason given was slavery, abolishing it was noble. Was centralizing power and essentially neutering the 10th amendment a good thing? All these are reasons to consider. Lincoln was tasked with a heavy burden. We can see the result of a now behemoth federal gov. You decide, but as with most things it isn’t cut and dry.
@@jwf2125 I wouldn’t call him a tyrant. I would simply ask what is your compromise point when it comes to personal rights and constitutional and states rights. Your answer to this question will give you an idea of what you approved and didn’t approve regarding Lincoln.
This episode is so soaked with Lincoln idolatry, I thought I was going to puke. So much to unpack here, no time for all of it but, Ferguson seems ecstatic as an obvious Left Nationalist that before the war people referred to the republic as "The United States Are" and then after his hero Lincoln "Saved the Union" at the point of a bayonet and blood referred to it as "The United States is" as Shelby Foot wrote. I don't think Shelby Foot rejoiced in that as Ferguson does. What it proves is Lincoln's actions destroyed the old federal republic of the founders and instituted a new "nation", something that would have repulsed them. Ferguson talks about Lerone Bennett, Jr. as if were a fellow traveller, but Bennett concluded this about historians like Ferguson, "Lincoln is theology, not historiology. He is a faith, he is a church, he is a religion, and he has his own priests and acolytes, most of whom have a vested interest in 'the great emancipator' and who are passionately opposed to anybody telling the truth about him".
When I was a troubled teenager in Portland I would walk by that Abraham Lincoln statue almost daily. It's no hyperbole to say that it was pivotal in giving me a sense of strength & direction when many other people & things had failed & I needed it most. When it is restored many other things will be as well.
As a fellow Portlander for fifty plus years, I also feel the loss. I detest the idiocy currently at work destroying a once beautiful city. Don't give up or give in to the madness.
I’m a native Washingtonian from the Seattle area but I lived in Portland for several years in the late seventies and I loved it. You have one of the largest urban forests in the United States. It’s a beautiful city and Oregon is a beautiful state. It’s up to the voters in the area whether they want to keep or remove a statue. It’s not up to a mob of historically illiterate zealots.
This series of interviews on some of the most consequential and now, more than ever, controversial figures of history, is priceless. Thank you for each and every one of them. I am riveted.
England’s loss is America’s gain. Thank you Douglas Murray (if you even read these comments) for your wonderful interviews. You are as good an interviewer as you are an interviewee. I enjoy your books & articles as you’re a serious thinker.
I really do love this series. He brings out the best of what all these people had to give to us is it country into the world. I listen to Thomas Jefferson and George Washington or Heroes of mine and Abraham Lincoln so it's in Church Hill
It is so refreshing to revisit our amazing American history lately forgotten and unappreciated by most of us,thank you for bringing back memories of the true subject matter.
This series is so great. It continues to show that people and history are deep and complex. We attribute surface level details and wash away the complexity of the context people lived in.
Thank you Douglas for these. As an American, who’s mother (mum) is from Britain (was a child during the Battle of Britain in London), whose grandfather (American side) was a P.O.W. From Wake Island, these interviews are most welcome and refreshing. Can’t wait for the one about Winston Churchill. Yes, Americans consider him a great man.
Absolutely loved the discussion on Lincoln. In my mind he is possibly the greatest statesman to ever have lived during his time. Thank you so much I learned a lot
@El Bearsidente whoa slow down there victim! You’re definitely one of those that need to see this episode in its ENTIRETY. They are talking about people like you after all . With that out of the way let’s ask an important question. What country? You can’t say he needed the approval of congress when the country is in danger of not being one very soon. That’s what happens after “succession”. As they clearly say habeas corpus was restored and this was a war time measure. And he did not invade “his own country” the confederacy became a country onto itself with a government and head of state. It’s that country that was invaded and brought to the fold. Rightly so if I may say so my self. So thanks for playing. 😂
Thank you Douglas Murray. What a wonderful education. I am very fortunate to have had teachers like this in my life. One can’t help but wonder if they have become extinct what with woke
I am forever grateful for the private education I received because it was an integral part of our curriculum that we visit Gettysburg during our 8th grade year. It was an incredible experience and probably what put me on the path (even though I went through a brief brainwashing in college) to loving America and recognizing the incredible sacrifice this country has made to better itself and gain extraordinary achievements. And our 16th President Abraham Lincoln is a true embodiment of this very fact.
I’ve recently started listening to this series, very interesting. I just finished Robert E. Lee while I was driving to Montreal! Looking forward to Lincoln.
Reading his speeches is one thing... But somehow I wish highly regarded historical institutions everywhere would flatter and beg Mr. Daniel-Day Lewis to re-enter his astonishing role as Lincoln, for just a couple of weeks, so as to gift us audio-recordings of him reading out a lot of his speeches. I think this would be a gift to young people everywhere who wish to absorb his speeches but who are sadly too impatient and unable to get a sense of how truly great some of his oration was without it being verbally represented by such a masterful actor. Just a thought thought, just a thought.. 🙂 Peace out!
All of my father's people came from Illinois. I was taught early on that we came from the land of Lincoln and to be very proud of that. Lincoln was revered in our house rightly so
Douglas, I’m sure you hear this often, but once again, whenever I see your name while scrolling, I’m a viewer of the video. You don’t waste a word in getting to your point, you add so much to any conversation. I like when you add anecdotal information to clarify a point, perhaps. If you’re not fully sure about a question, you don’t pretend you’re an expert on it. But, you most certainly aren’t bereft of an opinion. Just thinking of a few things I’d like to let you know. You are highly respected and not only by the political right. There are countless in-the-closet Douglas fans from the left. 😁 Thank you for adding so much to the many conversations that must be had in these rapidly changing times. Too rapid.
I listen to so many audiobooks & podcasts & watch so many documentaries that I'm sorry I can't cite the source, but I remember one traveler years ago who was in this remote mountainous area in Asia & went into the shack of some very poor people who had a picture of Lincoln on the wall. That's when I realized how inspiring & widespread the admiration for him was. I've also heard from multiple sources over the years that there have been more biographies of Lincoln written than of any other historical figure. Given how people so far removed from the U.S. put his image on their walls, I believe it. Maybe it was Michael Palin in one of his travel series? Apparently, it also wasn't the first time the host / author had seen a picture of Lincoln displayed in some remote location in an entirely foreign culture.
It is said of Churchill "he mobilised the English language and sent it into battle"; the same is true of Lincoln eighty years before. Oh, and I think I've sussed out a future episode and who Douglas's guest will be.(Suffolk, U.K)
My fav pres., but I was born in Illinois & in my childhood years of the 60-70s it was still a big deal in IL to go to his Springfield home as a field trip & read his works, etc..., so that has stuck with me. He finally got a presidential library & museum, which is fascinating, as well. Thanks Mr. Murray.
"If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that." Quote Abraham Lincoln
"A great man: Tender of heart, strong of nerve, of boundless patience and broadest sympathies, with no motive apart from his country. He could receive counsel from a child and give counsel to a sage. The simple approached him with ease - and the learned approached him with deference. Take him for all in all Abraham Lincoln was one of the noblest wisest and best men I ever knew.“ -- Frederick Douglass
Douglas Murray has remarked that criticism from those who wish your country well should be taken on board, while criticism from those who wish your country ill should be treated with deep suspicion. I'm no Lincoln expert, but I would suspect the motives of anyone wishing to remove his statues. They want to remove much more than that.
When I attended grad school, I lived around the corner from Lincoln Park, and always found the Emancipation Memorial unsettling. It purports to celebrate Lincoln's liberation of the slaves, but the black figure is nearly naked, and still kneeling at Lincoln's feet. I was astonished to learn that the memorial was paid for almost exclusively with funds raised from freed slaves. Frederick Douglass gave the keynote speech at its dedication, and he agreed with me that the figure of the freed slave should be standing beside Lincoln, clothed and fully possessed of his dignity.
I respectfully disagree. First, the park is a monument to Lincoln not the slaves so he is centered. He WAS absolutely crucial to their freedom and its not hyperbole to say that he literally gave his life for them. And the statue itself doesn't show the slave kneeling but beginning to rise. There's a huge difference. His shackles are broken if you look carefully. It also reflects the mores and values of THOSE times, not ours. I await the day when MLK is attacked - after all he advocated for a color-blind society, which is anathema to the woke neo-racists of today.
@@WhizzingFish12 I see your points, that a rising-up slave figure is appropriate when reflecting on what Lincoln led the country to do, And the pathos of that figure is understandable from the viewpoint of the people at that time this monument was erected. It should be allowed to stay to stand witness to the striking of those shackles, which galvanized the conscience of the world .
@@charleneki I agree. But I do support the addition of another monument alongside it, showing the beneficiaries of his work through the years that followed. Booker T Washington, Shirley Chisholm, etc. That would close the circle nicely.
I thought it was one of the most wonderful statues when I first visited USA. In south East Asian culture it is the norm even today to touch the feet 👣 of the elderly,or a mentor or someone who has helped one out of a dire situation, etc. A sign of respect and reverence. It doesn’t degrade a person doing the act, on the contrary it shows the nobility and heartfelt gratitude of the freed slave. I felt a sense of loss and ingratitude when Lincoln’s statue was removed. Sorry, but to me it showed disrespect,there are Hindus in USA who continue their tradition of respect,so I don’t think those who removed the statue of so Great an individual, were ignorant of different cultures.
Thank you Douglas and mr Gilles I have got the name of the book down for my Christmas list to read both very interesting interview good luck with what your both trying to achieve here I agree whole hsrtedly with your studies
Great interview. A complex individual during a complex time facing a complex problem. It seems arrogant to suppose that there is a simple description that we can meet. I appreciated the comment from Mr. Murray that our criticism may say more about us that those we criticize.
I have mixed feelings about prioritizing the Union over all else, with slavery's abolition as the end that justified murderous means to abolish slavery by force, when the institution would've been abolished peacefully in a few years, without bloodshed. America might be a much better place if we LET states leave, and allow re-entry into the union if they want and agree to abide by the Constitution. If the federal government governed more lightly, maybe there'd be American states all over the world, by consent of their people.a Lincoln was a huge part of centralizing power, and centralization of power is one of our biggest problems, today. FDR took it to new levels and the power grab for expediency's sake has been the reason bad decisions - pathologically bad decisions - are visited upon EVERYONE. Federal agencies have unlimited power and run roughshod over people and common sense.
There are two texts inscribed at the Lincoln Memorial. As much as I love the Gettysburg Address, my favorite “Lincoln” is the other text on the wall… the Second Inaugural.
My first reaction, as ever, upon viewing President Lincoln, is one of extreme pathos. His sadness is writ large upon him. What a great heart and mind, to overcome an obvious state of despair.
Well it's like sex educatissue you better leave it to the parents ...otherwise you're probably going to get Leon Trotsky's version of American history.
Britain (England, specifically) effectively eliminated the slave trade and slavery itself through the relentless efforts of William Wilberforce some 30 odd years BEFORE the US and also in their colonies some 29 years before through legislation WITHOUT the loss of 650,000 lives in the process. Who did a better job? Just saying.
"And the government of the People, by the People and for the People shall not perish from this earth." Why did Lincoln suggest that democracy would perish if the Southern States seceded? Democracy and willful allegiances rather than coerced allegiances are more democratic in nature...coercion is not democratic. BTW, the Southern States exercised Democracy when they seceded....with conventions and voting. "Today we are engaged in a great "civil war". A civil war is a war in which one group attempts to overthrow the current form or rule of government. The South sought a peaceful withdrawl from a previous agreement. VA RI and NY all contained language in their ratifications of the Constitution that they reserved the right to leave, to retake powers delegated to the federal experiment. When VA attempted to do so, they were invaded by the Union army.
At timestamp 11:45. There is a children's book mentioned. I want to get it for my daughter, but I can't make out the author. Can anyone post a link to purchase the book?
The central question is whether the United States was better as a single country than it had been as a treaty organization of sovereign states. Ferguson glosses over that question.
Bingo. He also treats the idea that Lincoln's inauguration of overweening government set a precedent for our current troubles as "perverse." This is lamentable ignorance because, as you say, it marked the date from which the states were servants rather than directors of the federal government. Federal Supremacy as a concept is defined by Shelby Foote's "...the United States are..." vs. "...the United States is..." quote. This is a grave misinterpretation of the ramifications of the civil war.
Lincoln accomplished and fulfilled what the Declaration of Independence promised. God blessed our country with this man. "Certain kind of Union where slavery would be done away with" "All men are created equal" . I am a WWII refugee and believe the US is a critical presence in the world to hold up "The Light of Truth" in a dark world. Thank you for having this interview.
How do you figure he "fulfilled what the Declaration of Independence promised"? The Declaration was a secession document! You perhaps missed when reading it stuff like, "That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness"
@Irene Kubitzky With your statement, I now wonder, if Lincoln did not preserve the Union and define what it is truly for, with tyrants like Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Polpot causing tremendous suffering and want to spread them, what kind of world would we have now?
@@rayr5950 Was the south being governed with the consent of the black population? Pretty sure that didn't happen for another hundred years after Lincoln.
@@rayr5950 We hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal and that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights that among them are life, liberty And the pursuit of happiness.
@@charleneki ??? Do you even know what was meant by those words at the beginning of the Preamble? Got some silly modern leftist notion that it literally encompassed everything? No one believed that. The founding generation understood the difference between the creator (God) and government, that all men being equal under God, and English freemen being equal under the law (government). The Declaration was simply a list of unresolved complaints, the Crowns “train of abuses” of the rights of the colonists under English law. The only viable choice called for the secession of the individual colonies from the English crown so they may regain their sovereignty.
Love the series. One of the most important achievements of Lincoln was the establishment of the supremacy of the Federal Government over that of the States. As was said in the introduction, the War made “are” an “is.” Thus, it’s impossible to separate Lincoln from the concentration of power at the Federal level. We could, and should, debate the merits of this, but you cannot deny Lincoln’s role in the expansion of government power.
This erroneous view debunked in the interview by Mr. Ferguson. If Lincoln truly created a supreme federal government Reconstruction would have succeeded. If one wishes to identify the start of overwhelming federal government the best place to look is that racist, lost-causer Democrat, Woodrow Wilson.
@@marchess286, I agree with your assessment of Wilson. Reconstruction is best analyzed through the lens of a counter-insurgency operation. It failed primarily due to lack of will from a Northern public that already sacrificed 300,000+ men to the cause. Poor leadership on the ground is another key component of the failure of Reconstruction.
@@admashburn2543 - I think it is fair and helpful to analyze Reconstruction as a COIN campaign, although more of a non-lethal/RoL COIN. I also think it is true to attribute failure to lack of Northern will, in part, but only in part. I think it's worth considering that the Northern establishment/public lack of "will" was due to a rather accurate assessment of how effective the South might fight as an insurgency, a desire for normalcy and an unwillingness wage something as bloody as an counter-insurgency for the sake of equal rights for African-Americans. IMHO, Lincoln was possibly the greatest American. But, his political line, "just because I don't want a black woman as my slave doesn't mean I want her as my wife (paraphrasing)" was effective because it resonated (sadly) with a large part of the Northern public.
Yes if I were you and lived in the United States I would be proud as well you have a great country I live in New Zealand and I’m praying for America to be Great Again your country has been a beacon of light and hope this will return soon as in November good luck I’m praying for this to happen so things can be restored
I've always respected and admired Lincoln, but do support the critical arguments from the right about him. What's annoying about modern culture is that they take those criticisms as if they're damnations, rather than lessons. Ferguson notes, for instance, that Lincoln didn't emancipate the Delaware and Maryland slaves because he was trying to follow the constitution. But it's entirely possible that it was because of politics: those states sided with the Union, their loyalty was somewhat tenuous, and it would have been unwise to upset them.
@@Mortalnomad Naw they didn't and those red necks had to get beat down to realize it Sorry You can't leave the country because you don't like the fact the people have decided to end slavery It was done via the democratic process..in which the south had a say/representation It's not taxation without representation aka the tyrannical king They lost in the ballot boxe and wished to take their ball and go home The south was wrong and frankly evil on he topic. Suck it up buttercup and learn how to have an economic model that doesn't rely on enslaving human beings Traitors and scum
The Emancipation Proclamation did nothing to free anybody, it had no force of law, it was war propaganda, it was unconstitutional which is why slaves in bondage in the Northern states were not included in the so-called Emancipation Proclamation. "Abraham Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation was little more than a political gimmick, and he admitted so in a letter to Treasury Secretary Salmon P. Chase: "The original proclamation has no…legal justification, except as a military measure." Secretary of State William Seward said, "We show our sympathy with slavery by emancipating slaves where we cannot reach them and holding them in bondage where we can set them free. " Seward was acknowledging the fact that the Emancipation Proclamation applied only to slaves in states in rebellion against the United States and not to slaves in states not in rebellion."
@@Mortalnomad As historian Jeffrey Rogers Hummel said in his book, Emancipating Slaves, Enslaving Free Men, "The Civil War represents the simultaneous culmination and repudiation of the American Revolution" To think that anyone in a republic born out of secession from England would deny the right to self-determination, as was enshrined in the Declaration of Independence to any of its component sovereign states is crazy. Of course, there are a lot of crazy people in this world.
@@rayr5950 Begging your pardon, sir. But you have no idea what you’re talking about. Lincoln constitutionally justified the emancipation proclamation under the presidential war powers clause. Freeing the slaves of those states IN REBELLION, was equivalent of “seizing assets”. He admitted that, constitutionally, he had no power to disturb slavery in those slave states that remained loyal to the Union, ie-were not in rebellion. Also, the emancipation proclamation was only one move on the chessboard for Lincoln of an ongoing(work-in-progress, “situation is fluid”, etc) game. The end game was always the final end of slavery, which could only be accomplished by complete military victory, the destruction of the rebel army. Lincoln was, among other things, a master of timing and gauging public opinion, understanding exactly how far, and how fast he could go. I’m sorry if the situation, in all of its manifold complexity, is too complicated, and too nuanced, for your limited understanding(as it was for many at the time). The deeper one goes in studying Lincoln, in the context of his times, the more his genius and his greatness grows. Roll your sleeves up and dig deeper before spreading your specious revisionism & sophistry. PS- as to the right of secession, read Lincoln’s speech to Congress in special session, July 4, 1861. It addresses & answers every & any argument you or anyone else could possibly make on that subject. But just for shits & giggles, please cite the provisions in the Constitution that lay out the procedures for such secession…we’ll wait patiently for you. 🤣😂😎🙏🎩🇱🇷
Andrew Ferguson looks like how I wished my grandfather 👴 looked like. Plus he's dressed down.. casual and approachable. Andrew is probably really endearing and I'd love to grab a coffee ☕️ with him. It would probably be an interesting and long discussion.
A really good interview. However, I feel like Lincoln has been put up on too large of a pedestal and it creates a situation where any critique of Lincoln gets a person accused of "cancelling" Lincoln or accused of being neo confederate or something. No one is either all good or all bad. Thank you, overall a very good channel. 👍
Very true. The question is in reality who is canceling who? The left represented by Ferguson is a perfect example of trying to cancel real history and free speech that they don't like..
So what particular point do you think was not touched upon here? All I find missing is a Freudian analysis of Lincoln, which might be interesting for those who understand that sort of thing.
Can you add the guests’ titles and associated institutions in the show notes? These talks are wonderful and it would be nice to read the writings etc of the guests. Many thanks!
As a proud Brit and Englishman, how on earth do you cancel Abraham Lincoln? Perhaps the greatest of all US Presidents, although I recognise that is open to debate.
Burlingame in his Lincoln biography describes this 'slave' incident. This is the lates and most thorough treatment suince Hay and Nicplay's biography spaning ten volumes.
Great conversation. I believe it was not up to Lincoln for progress of black people; it is up to black people. Black people can do more for black people than a person of another race. The responsibility and accountability is unavoidable. Black people will pay for the performance of black people. I hope they do well. That's logic.
I enjoy Douglas Murray immensely and I think Uncancelled History is very important. Lincoln is one of my heroes, maybe my first. I've been to his tomb in Springfield, Ill and recite the Gettysburg Address from memory. I don't agree with a lot of Ferguson's conjectures, but that's okay. What I can't ignore is when an historian misquotes his source, claims to have a witness to the erroneous statement and then uses it to disparage not only that author but other sources as well. It makes me wonder about the rest of the story. I have also read the children's book that he and his skeptic friend cited. I first read it in 1957 in a compendium titled "Best in Children's Books Vol. 1" and I just read it again. I have two copies. 'Abraham Lincoln' by Ingri and Edgar Parin D'Aulaire, 1937 with 18 illustrations by the authors. Winner of the Caldecott Medal award as an outstanding children's book. (From the book's flyleaf) Ferguson claims that the incident at the slave market was "one of the central scenes" of that story, and further, that the D'Aulaires quoted Lincoln as saying, "Someday I'm gonna hit that and I'm going to hit it hard." I don't know where Ferguson got the quote, I've never heard it before, but it wasn't from that book. Nor was this scene central to the story. The entire voyage from the Ohio River to New Orleans is told on a single page and the slave market experience occupies only two paragraphs. The authors describe very clearly what any slave market in America looked like in 1825 and don't quote him as saying anything, only suggesting that "Abe Lincoln thought that was cruel." This matters because he is fueling the idea that books are filled with errors and can't be trusted, especially old books. And to use these books, these "Best in Children's Books" to push that narrative really annoys me. I received 42 volumes in the mail between age three and six and I learned more from that experience than kids do today in twelve years, as far as I can tell. And this story of Lincoln is wonderful, the illustrations are fantastic, a great story for kids. The authors trace his life with all the anecdotes and tragedies, but never mention a political party, nor Mary's shortcomings nor disagreements with his government. And mercifully, omit the last day of his life.
Thanks for clarifying that Citation. This speaker must have been thinking of another children's book. I sympathize because I too sometimes feel dementia creeping on .
When you think how close DC was to Richmond and Virginia, Lincoln had to have strict war time policies and keep control . The Confederates were very very close
6:12 "If that's all Lincoln did,,,, aaahhhm we would still be grateful to him..." Why the "aaahhhm"? I suggest that it is rooted in 'grammar angst'. To be more exact, Mr. Ferguson seemed to detect mid-sentence that the 'subjunctive mood' was required here. However it was just slightly too late to make the transition to the past subjunctive, in order to correctly state, "If that were all Lincoln had done,..." That is quite a tricky sentence, grammatically speaking, so the slight gaffe here is more than forgiveable, especially in the overall context of an impressively knowledgeable presentation on the great former President Lincoln.
My hero. Lincoln was the greatest writer of the English language, the most erudite precise expression, sole author of every, word and, most important, momentous, progressive, commanding, liberal, atheist philosophy applied..... As, I think Seward, said to his fellow cabinet ministers after their first meeting "He is the best of us." He doesn't need a monument.
Secession was clearly about slavery. But too often slavery and secession are used interchangeably in these arguments. Lincoln did not invade the South to end slavery, as he stated many times. He invaded to reverse the South's secession. But he had no good reason to consider war as his first option. One can always go to war, today, tomorrow, next week, or next month. One cannot get out of war nearly so easily. But Lincoln chose war. He wanted it so badly that he had to drag the country kicking and screaming to the war. He had to twist and bend the Constitution to do it. He had to imprison people who opposed it. He had to initiate a draft because enough Northerners did not support the war. And he willingly chose to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of both Northerners and Southerners to do it. In fact one of his greatest wartime fears was that other politicians might negotiate an end to the war before his personal objectives had been achieved. And all this when there was no clear evidence that secession was illegal in the first place. That fact is the reason that no Confederates were charged with treason after the war. Lincoln apologists point out that he never considered the Confederacy to be a country, but instead insisted it was American soil under rebellion. But he treated all Southerners as enemies. He brought war to the cities and towns of the South, destroyed the infrastructure, and killed civilians. Is that any way to treat your countrymen? Even if insurgents are embedded among them? He did it because, in spite of his words, they were another country, he knew it, and he was going to conquer it regardless of the cost. Imagine if Lincoln had not chosen war in early 1861. Imagine if he had been as passionate about peace and reconciliation as he was about war. Imagine if all through the summer and fall, he had used his undeniable superior political skills to salvage the relationship between North and South. Imagine US history with the Civil War never happening. With any leader other that Lincoln, there is a very good chance that would have happened. How is it possible to revere such a man, and consider him our best president? We can speculate forever about what would have happened had we pursued "the road not taken", but this we know: behind Door #1 is 600,000 dead Americans, Lincoln's own death, and the misery of Reconstruction. Shouldn't we at least consider what might be behind Door #2?
Whether secession was legal or not, the south was clearly in favor of leaving the union - it’s not clear why a half million people needed to die in order to force the south back into the union. Something to be said for self determination.
@@MFK1967 Secession was clearly considered a legal option, the first secession movement was actually proposed by Northern members of the Federalist party who opposed the Embargo Act of 1807 and War of 1812. See...the Hartford Convention of 1814. No one thought that any state may be forbidden from seceding from the union since every state was a sovereign entity. What's clear is that Lincoln's illegal military invasion of the Confederacy was a repudiation of the principles of the Declaration of Independence.
I would echo the positive comments below and add that these podcasts are a timely contribution to the battle against the societal madness that sees statues of our heroes defiled and destroyed. Some men and women, through their actions, are destined to alter the whole course of human history. You could add Newton, Gandhi, Genghis Khan, Mandela, Cook, Jobs, da Vinci, Joan of Arc, Turing, Curie, Pankhurst, Marx, and Darwin, to name but a few... but there's a finite number of heroes, and my hero may be your villain. Douglas, I appreciate you and your excellent guests are demonstrating that individuals are complex and that their behaviour can be open to all sorts of interpretations. Indeed, the critical point is that their contribution to humanity was considered worthy at a certain point in our history. For that reason alone, we should accept these statues, even if they may, in the view of some, upset current-day sensibilities.
Lincoln moved emancipation along, a quantum move. However, it is up to black people for how they will do. Each individual will have his own personal measure.
When Lincoln did the circuit in a horse and buggy in snow rain sleet and all kinds of weather muddy roads slept in a different bed every night no McDonald's in the back country left his family and home for weeks. A lesser man wouldn't have done it
There is a statue of Mao and Lenin in San Antonio Texas. The statue depicts Lenin with a miniature of Mao on the top of his head. Andrew reminds me of Mark Twain.
I love Doulas Murray. I totally disagree with his Lincoln worship though. Ferguson is just another example of a Lincoln hagiographer. It’s tiresome. You simply cannot hold to the founding principles of the USA and Lincoln. Lincoln’s legacy is as poisoned as Woodrow Wilson’s. Tyrants.
It's so crazy when you look at how everyone nowadays celebrates their smallest achievements (participation trophies) yet looks at people who achieved unimaginable things get thrown away for not being "perfect". Darn shame 😔
When was the Leviathan that we live under born? I would argue it was under FDR. If I lived before his reign, I would have said Lincoln. This in no way makes me a racist, but I guess nowadays if you're not being called a racist, you're probably a stooge of the regime.
Now more than ever we need to have an open, honest conversation regarding Lincoln. Putting him on a pedestal and creating a myth surrounding him isn't helping.
…..Said the guy who has probably never read a single biography of Lincoln, or any of his greatest political speeches, or studied American political history from the founding through the Civil War…😔
@@timothymeehan181 you don't need to have read biographies of Hitler or Mao to know that they were dictators. What gave Lincoln the right to make war on the south for succeeding from the union? There was nothing in the constitution that forbade succession, I wonder if any of those original states would have ever joined the union if they had known that within 100 years, they would be threatened with violence and crushed if they chose to leave. I often wonder what Washington would have said if he somehow could have seen what Tecumseh Sherman did to Atlanta. I think if any of the founding fathers had seen Atlanta burn they would have moved to Canada with the loyalists. The truth is that ever since the federal union of the u.s.a took shape, the rights of states would slowly be curtailed until they were amalgamated into one big super state like what you have now. If any of your states ever tried to succeed today (as is their right, a right which America would support anywhere else in the world), the u.s Military will destroy you. Nice country, cool values!
A merry dance around the unfortunate point that you can't *begin* to appreciate the genius of Lincoln by simply looking at his various writing and statements outside the context of politics and the political climate of his age. This is where Jon Meacham's latest, And Let There Be Light, excels. It works *strenuosly* to put you into the prevailing and developing climate of Lincoln's day. Yes, we may think we know what Lincoln was saying but *more important* was what everyone else was, everywhere in the country. Lincoln as some hero exists in a sad vacuum, alas.
The statue of Lenin in Seattle stands but Lincoln is torn down by the possesed. This is symbolic of what needs to be corrected in America.
@El Bearsidente Explain please.
That's because those putting up statues of Lenin and tearing down statues of Lincoln and the Founding Fathers are the same people. Left wing Bolshevik Marxists who seek to destroy America. And they're being taught by anti American Communist professors in the cancerous tumors called universities.
@@jwf2125 when is it ok to suspend constitutional rights, imprison citizens who disagree with your gov? If the answer is “never”, then you might think Lincoln was a tyrant. If your answer is “in order to save the republic”, then he wouldn’t be.
Was the strengthening of federal power a good thing or a bad thing? In this case the reason given was slavery, abolishing it was noble. Was centralizing power and essentially neutering the 10th amendment a good thing?
All these are reasons to consider.
Lincoln was tasked with a heavy burden. We can see the result of a now behemoth federal gov.
You decide, but as with most things it isn’t cut and dry.
@@jwf2125 I wouldn’t call him a tyrant. I would simply ask what is your compromise point when it comes to personal rights and constitutional and states rights. Your answer to this question will give you an idea of what you approved and didn’t approve regarding Lincoln.
This episode is so soaked with Lincoln idolatry, I thought I was going to puke. So much to unpack here, no time for all of it but, Ferguson seems ecstatic as an obvious Left Nationalist that before the war people referred to the republic as "The United States Are" and then after his hero Lincoln "Saved the Union" at the point of a bayonet and blood referred to it as "The United States is" as Shelby Foot wrote. I don't think Shelby Foot rejoiced in that as Ferguson does. What it proves is Lincoln's actions destroyed the old federal republic of the founders and instituted a new "nation", something that would have repulsed them.
Ferguson talks about Lerone Bennett, Jr. as if were a fellow traveller, but Bennett concluded this about historians like Ferguson,
"Lincoln is theology, not historiology. He is a faith, he is a church, he is a religion, and he has his own priests and acolytes, most of whom have a vested interest in 'the great emancipator' and who are passionately opposed to anybody telling the truth about him".
When I was a troubled teenager in Portland I would walk by that Abraham Lincoln statue almost daily. It's no hyperbole to say that it was pivotal in giving me a sense of strength & direction when many other people & things had failed & I needed it most. When it is restored many other things will be as well.
As a fellow Portlander for fifty plus years, I also feel the loss. I detest the idiocy currently at work destroying a once beautiful city. Don't give up or give in to the madness.
I’m a native Washingtonian from the Seattle area but I lived in Portland for several years in the late seventies and I loved it. You have one of the largest urban forests in the United States. It’s a beautiful city and Oregon is a beautiful state.
It’s up to the voters in the area whether they want to keep or remove a statue. It’s not up to a mob of historically illiterate zealots.
You have to defeat the Confederates first
@@vladtheimpala5532 - Great comment. Great avatar.
Your meaningless sentimentality is of no importance to truth.
This series of interviews on some of the most consequential and now, more than ever, controversial figures of history, is priceless.
Thank you for each and every one of them. I am riveted.
Imagine a world where real strength and integrity is rewarded.
It is in our own lives.
@@simpinainteasy680 point taken but we don't have enough micro successes there to have the good dominate the bad.
This is easily now my most anticipated weekly series on YT. Thank you !
England’s loss is America’s gain. Thank you Douglas Murray (if you even read these comments) for your wonderful interviews. You are as good an interviewer as you are an interviewee. I enjoy your books & articles as you’re a serious thinker.
Best new series on TH-cam!!!
Indeed!
Douglas, I am really enjoying this series. Thank you.
I really do love this series. He brings out the best of what all these people had to give to us is it country into the world. I listen to Thomas Jefferson and George Washington or Heroes of mine and Abraham Lincoln so it's in Church Hill
💯
Thank you, Douglas. Essential reminder of a pivotal time in history; of greatness and a past of which to be so proud.
It is so refreshing to revisit our amazing American history lately forgotten and unappreciated by most of us,thank you for bringing back memories of the true subject matter.
@@ElBearsidente Which ones?
They call out everyone else's bias but neglect to acknowledge their own.
This series is so great. It continues to show that people and history are deep and complex. We attribute surface level details and wash away the complexity of the context people lived in.
This series is gold! Thank you Douglas!!
Love this!! I teach middle school social studies in Maryland, and I love this!!
Your vocation is so very important
Thank you Douglas for these. As an American, who’s mother (mum) is from Britain (was a child during the Battle of Britain in London), whose grandfather (American side) was a P.O.W. From Wake Island, these interviews are most welcome and refreshing. Can’t wait for the one about Winston Churchill. Yes, Americans consider him a great man.
Lincoln and Churchill are great examples of the old adage "they liberated millions, and have never been forgiven for it".
@@GreenMorningDragonProductions I heard Lincoln liberated 650,000 Americans of their mortal coil. Just trying to keep things real you see.
Absolutely loved the discussion on Lincoln. In my mind he is possibly the greatest statesman to ever have lived during his time. Thank you so much I learned a lot
Wonderful talk. Made me appreciate Lincoln even more than I already do.
@El Bearsidente whoa slow down there victim! You’re definitely one of those that need to see this episode in its ENTIRETY. They are talking about people like you after all . With that out of the way let’s ask an important question. What country? You can’t say he needed the approval of congress when the country is in danger of not being one very soon. That’s what happens after “succession”. As they clearly say habeas corpus was restored and this was a war time measure. And he did not invade “his own country” the confederacy became a country onto itself with a government and head of state. It’s that country that was invaded and brought to the fold. Rightly so if I may say so my self. So thanks for playing. 😂
@El Bearsidente Ignorance has the luxury of never being weighed down by facts!
Thank you Douglas Murray. What a wonderful education. I am very fortunate to have had teachers like this in my life. One can’t help but wonder if they have become extinct what with woke
You're on fire with the wonderful series!
And just the right length to listen in the bath, too!
Absolutely LOVE this series!! Thank you Douglas for this treat.
Wonderful teacher! Bought the Kindle book and Audible companion immediately. Can’t wait to get into it
I am forever grateful for the private education I received because it was an integral part of our curriculum that we visit Gettysburg during our 8th grade year. It was an incredible experience and probably what put me on the path (even though I went through a brief brainwashing in college) to loving America and recognizing the incredible sacrifice this country has made to better itself and gain extraordinary achievements. And our 16th President Abraham Lincoln is a true embodiment of this very fact.
This series is wonderful! ✨
I’ve recently started listening to this series, very interesting. I just finished Robert E. Lee while I was driving to Montreal! Looking forward to Lincoln.
Once in a while, I encounter a video, seminal and truly worthwhile.
Reading his speeches is one thing... But somehow I wish highly regarded historical institutions everywhere would flatter and beg Mr. Daniel-Day Lewis to re-enter his astonishing role as Lincoln, for just a couple of weeks, so as to gift us audio-recordings of him reading out a lot of his speeches.
I think this would be a gift to young people everywhere who wish to absorb his speeches but who are sadly too impatient and unable to get a sense of how truly great some of his oration was without it being verbally represented by such a masterful actor.
Just a thought thought, just a thought.. 🙂 Peace out!
Finally, discussions of important topics with people who have spent much of their lives studying those
very topics.
All of my father's people came from Illinois. I was taught early on that we came from the land of Lincoln and to be very proud of that. Lincoln was revered in our house rightly so
Just found this series. Thanks for doing these interviews. Enjoyed this so much!
Douglas, I’m sure you hear this often, but once again, whenever I see your name while scrolling, I’m a viewer of the video. You don’t waste a word in getting to your point, you add so much to any conversation. I like when you add anecdotal information to clarify a point, perhaps. If you’re not fully sure about a question, you don’t pretend you’re an expert on it. But, you most certainly aren’t bereft of an opinion. Just thinking of a few things I’d like to let you know. You are highly respected and not only by the political right. There are countless in-the-closet Douglas fans from the left. 😁
Thank you for adding so much to the many conversations that must be had in these rapidly changing times. Too rapid.
Douglas Murray is my new Superhero. Please check out the recent Munk debate from Toronto.
I listen to so many audiobooks & podcasts & watch so many documentaries that I'm sorry I can't cite the source, but I remember one traveler years ago who was in this remote mountainous area in Asia & went into the shack of some very poor people who had a picture of Lincoln on the wall. That's when I realized how inspiring & widespread the admiration for him was. I've also heard from multiple sources over the years that there have been more biographies of Lincoln written than of any other historical figure. Given how people so far removed from the U.S. put his image on their walls, I believe it. Maybe it was Michael Palin in one of his travel series? Apparently, it also wasn't the first time the host / author had seen a picture of Lincoln displayed in some remote location in an entirely foreign culture.
I'm from the land of Lincoln and I was appalled to discover that there were two paragraphs on Lincoln in her high school history book.
A tremendously enjoyable discussion.
Amazing! When you get to interview Mark Twain it really is Amazzzzzing!
Brilliant people you find Sir.
It is said of Churchill "he mobilised the English language and sent it into battle"; the same is true of Lincoln eighty years before. Oh, and I think I've sussed out a future episode and who Douglas's guest will be.(Suffolk, U.K)
My fav pres., but I was born in Illinois & in my childhood years of the 60-70s it was still a big deal in IL to go to his Springfield home as a field trip & read his works, etc..., so that has stuck with me. He finally got a presidential library & museum, which is fascinating, as well. Thanks Mr. Murray.
I was required to memorize the Gettysburg Address in school during the 60's in California before it wen't communist.
@@theholepicture I haven't memorized it, but it's on the shelf with other of his addresses!
"If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that." Quote Abraham Lincoln
"A great man: Tender of heart, strong of nerve, of boundless patience and broadest sympathies, with no motive apart from his country. He could receive counsel from a child and give counsel to a sage. The simple approached him with ease - and the learned approached him with deference. Take him for all in all Abraham Lincoln was one of the noblest wisest and best men I ever knew.“
-- Frederick Douglass
Yet he could have saved the Union without liberating the slaves but he did not. He reached out to Thaddeus Stevens and abolished slavery
Douglas Murray has remarked that criticism from those who wish your country well should be taken on board, while criticism from those who wish your country ill should be treated with deep suspicion. I'm no Lincoln expert, but I would suspect the motives of anyone wishing to remove his statues. They want to remove much more than that.
When I attended grad school, I lived around the corner from Lincoln Park, and always found the Emancipation Memorial unsettling. It purports to celebrate Lincoln's liberation of the slaves, but the black figure is nearly naked, and still kneeling at Lincoln's feet. I was astonished to learn that the memorial was paid for almost exclusively with funds raised from freed slaves. Frederick Douglass gave the keynote speech at its dedication, and he agreed with me that the figure of the freed slave should be standing beside Lincoln, clothed and fully possessed of his dignity.
Agreed. A lapse in taste and moral cogency
I respectfully disagree. First, the park is a monument to Lincoln not the slaves so he is centered. He WAS absolutely crucial to their freedom and its not hyperbole to say that he literally gave his life for them. And the statue itself doesn't show the slave kneeling but beginning to rise. There's a huge difference. His shackles are broken if you look carefully. It also reflects the mores and values of THOSE times, not ours. I await the day when MLK is attacked - after all he advocated for a color-blind society, which is anathema to the woke neo-racists of today.
@@WhizzingFish12 I see your points, that a rising-up slave figure is appropriate when reflecting on what Lincoln led the country to do, And the pathos of that figure is understandable from the viewpoint of the people at that time this monument was erected. It should be allowed to stay to stand witness to the striking of those shackles, which galvanized the conscience of the world .
@@charleneki I agree. But I do support the addition of another monument alongside it, showing the beneficiaries of his work through the years that followed. Booker T Washington, Shirley Chisholm, etc. That would close the circle nicely.
I thought it was one of the most wonderful statues when I first visited USA. In south East Asian culture it is the norm even today to touch the feet 👣 of the elderly,or a mentor or someone who has helped one out of a dire situation, etc. A sign of respect and reverence. It doesn’t degrade a person doing the act, on the contrary it shows the nobility and heartfelt gratitude of the freed slave. I felt a sense of loss and ingratitude when Lincoln’s statue was removed. Sorry, but to me it showed disrespect,there are Hindus in USA who continue their tradition of respect,so I don’t think those who removed the statue of so Great an individual, were ignorant of different cultures.
Thank you Douglas and mr Gilles I have got the name of the book down for my Christmas list to read both very interesting interview good luck with what your both trying to achieve here I agree whole hsrtedly with your studies
Great interview. A complex individual during a complex time facing a complex problem. It seems arrogant to suppose that there is a simple description that we can meet. I appreciated the comment from Mr. Murray that our criticism may say more about us that those we criticize.
Great podcast!
"If you don't know anything, then anything is possible." Andrew Ferguson
Thank you Douglas! I am hooked😁
Glad to hear it!
Great stuff. Thanks.
Brilliant thank you so much!
WAIT! What i miss Lincoln isn't safe from these people. Just stop the world and let me off. on another note thank you so much for this series Douglas
I have mixed feelings about prioritizing the Union over all else, with slavery's abolition as the end that justified murderous means to abolish slavery by force, when the institution would've been abolished peacefully in a few years, without bloodshed.
America might be a much better place if we LET states leave, and allow re-entry into the union if they want and agree to abide by the Constitution. If the federal government governed more lightly, maybe there'd be American states all over the world, by consent of their people.a
Lincoln was a huge part of centralizing power, and centralization of power is one of our biggest problems, today. FDR took it to new levels and the power grab for expediency's sake has been the reason bad decisions - pathologically bad decisions - are visited upon EVERYONE. Federal agencies have unlimited power and run roughshod over people and common sense.
There are two texts inscribed at the Lincoln Memorial. As much as I love the Gettysburg Address, my favorite “Lincoln” is the other text on the wall… the Second Inaugural.
The Most Important voice for Truth and Learning
I was appalled that my granddaughters high school history book devoted 2 paragraphs to Abraham Lincoln.
Wonderful talk, thank you.
My first reaction, as ever, upon viewing President Lincoln, is one of extreme pathos. His sadness is writ large upon him. What a great heart and mind, to overcome an obvious state of despair.
When I was a child (early 1970s) a descendant of Lincoln's came to our elementary school to talk about his ancestor.
They had no reason to be bias...
Please do a piece on the gradual decline and near elimination of funding and mandates for history education in schools
Well it's like sex educatissue you better leave it to the parents ...otherwise you're probably going to get Leon Trotsky's version of American history.
I’ve read that Lincoln himself was disappointed with his Gettysburg Address…saying “that speech will not scour”
Very insightful!
Britain (England, specifically) effectively eliminated the slave trade and slavery itself through the relentless efforts of William Wilberforce some 30 odd years BEFORE the US and also in their colonies some 29 years before through legislation WITHOUT the loss of 650,000 lives in the process. Who did a better job? Just saying.
"And the government of the People, by the People and for the People shall not perish from this earth."
Why did Lincoln suggest that democracy would perish if the Southern States seceded? Democracy and willful allegiances rather than coerced allegiances are more democratic in nature...coercion is not democratic. BTW, the Southern States exercised Democracy when they seceded....with conventions and voting.
"Today we are engaged in a great "civil war".
A civil war is a war in which one group attempts to overthrow the current form or rule of government. The South sought a peaceful withdrawl from a previous agreement. VA RI and NY all contained language in their ratifications of the Constitution that they reserved the right to leave, to retake powers delegated to the federal experiment. When VA attempted to do so, they were invaded by the Union army.
At timestamp 11:45. There is a children's book mentioned. I want to get it for my daughter, but I can't make out the author. Can anyone post a link to purchase the book?
"abraham lincoln" by d'aulaire
@@TheBrianna4555 thank you!
They, and I, read it in Best in Children's Books vol 1, 1957
The central question is whether the United States was better as a single country than it had been as a treaty organization of sovereign states. Ferguson glosses over that question.
Bingo. He also treats the idea that Lincoln's inauguration of overweening government set a precedent for our current troubles as "perverse." This is lamentable ignorance because, as you say, it marked the date from which the states were servants rather than directors of the federal government. Federal Supremacy as a concept is defined by Shelby Foote's "...the United States are..." vs. "...the United States is..." quote.
This is a grave misinterpretation of the ramifications of the civil war.
Read Lincoln’s Message to Congress in Special Session, July 4, 1861. He answers all your questions.
@@timothymeehan181, I know Lincoln's opinions. That doesn't mean they are correct.
Lincoln accomplished and fulfilled what the Declaration of Independence promised. God blessed our country with this man. "Certain kind of Union where slavery would be done away with" "All men are created equal" . I am a WWII refugee and believe the US is a critical presence in the world to hold up "The Light of Truth" in a dark world. Thank you for having this interview.
How do you figure he "fulfilled what the Declaration of Independence promised"? The Declaration was a secession document!
You perhaps missed when reading it stuff like, "That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness"
@Irene Kubitzky With your statement, I now wonder, if Lincoln did not preserve the Union and define what it is truly for, with tyrants like Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Polpot causing tremendous suffering and want to spread them, what kind of world would we have now?
@@rayr5950 Was the south being governed with the consent of the black population? Pretty sure that didn't happen for another hundred years after Lincoln.
@@rayr5950 We hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal and that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights that among them are life, liberty And the pursuit of happiness.
@@charleneki ??? Do you even know what was meant by those words at the beginning of the Preamble? Got some silly modern leftist notion that it literally encompassed everything? No one believed that.
The founding generation understood the difference between the creator (God) and government, that all men being equal under God, and English freemen being equal under the law (government).
The Declaration was simply a list of unresolved complaints, the Crowns “train of abuses” of the rights of the colonists under English law. The only viable choice called for the secession of the individual colonies from the English crown so they may regain their sovereignty.
Your introduction triggered a flashback of when I used to watch masterpiece theater. When they opened with welcome to Masterpiece Theatre lol
Love the series. One of the most important achievements of Lincoln was the establishment of the supremacy of the Federal Government over that of the States. As was said in the introduction, the War made “are” an “is.” Thus, it’s impossible to separate Lincoln from the concentration of power at the Federal level. We could, and should, debate the merits of this, but you cannot deny Lincoln’s role in the expansion of government power.
Amen to that. FDR put it in high gear but it was old Abe who laid the groundwork.
This erroneous view debunked in the interview by Mr. Ferguson. If Lincoln truly created a supreme federal government Reconstruction would have succeeded. If one wishes to identify the start of overwhelming federal government the best place to look is that racist, lost-causer Democrat, Woodrow Wilson.
@@marchess286 I never said he created in my opinion he nearly laid the seeds for a strong central government. I do agree with you on Wilson however.
@@marchess286,
I agree with your assessment of Wilson. Reconstruction is best analyzed through the lens of a counter-insurgency operation. It failed primarily due to lack of will from a Northern public that already sacrificed 300,000+ men to the cause. Poor leadership on the ground is another key component of the failure of Reconstruction.
@@admashburn2543 - I think it is fair and helpful to analyze Reconstruction as a COIN campaign, although more of a non-lethal/RoL COIN. I also think it is true to attribute failure to lack of Northern will, in part, but only in part. I think it's worth considering that the Northern establishment/public lack of "will" was due to a rather accurate assessment of how effective the South might fight as an insurgency, a desire for normalcy and an unwillingness wage something as bloody as an counter-insurgency for the sake of equal rights for African-Americans. IMHO, Lincoln was possibly the greatest American. But, his political line, "just because I don't want a black woman as my slave doesn't mean I want her as my wife (paraphrasing)" was effective because it resonated (sadly) with a large part of the Northern public.
Awesome!
Yes if I were you and lived in the United States I would be proud as well you have a great country I live in New Zealand and I’m praying for America to be Great Again your country has been a beacon of light and hope this will return soon as in November good luck I’m praying for this to happen so things can be restored
All so good, I'm stressing now about how little remains in the play list.
I've always respected and admired Lincoln, but do support the critical arguments from the right about him. What's annoying about modern culture is that they take those criticisms as if they're damnations, rather than lessons.
Ferguson notes, for instance, that Lincoln didn't emancipate the Delaware and Maryland slaves because he was trying to follow the constitution. But it's entirely possible that it was because of politics: those states sided with the Union, their loyalty was somewhat tenuous, and it would have been unwise to upset them.
@@Mortalnomad Naw they didn't and those red necks had to get beat down to realize it
Sorry
You can't leave the country because you don't like the fact the people have decided to end slavery
It was done via the democratic process..in which the south had a say/representation
It's not taxation without representation aka the tyrannical king
They lost in the ballot boxe and wished to take their ball and go home
The south was wrong and frankly evil on he topic.
Suck it up buttercup and learn how to have an economic model that doesn't rely on enslaving human beings
Traitors and scum
The Emancipation Proclamation did nothing to free anybody, it had no force of law, it was war propaganda, it was unconstitutional which is why slaves in bondage in the Northern states were not included in the so-called Emancipation Proclamation.
"Abraham Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation was little more than a political gimmick, and he admitted so in a letter to Treasury Secretary Salmon P. Chase: "The original proclamation has no…legal justification, except as a military measure." Secretary of State William Seward said, "We show our sympathy with slavery by emancipating slaves where we cannot reach them and holding them in bondage where we can set them free. " Seward was acknowledging the fact that the Emancipation Proclamation applied only to slaves in states in rebellion against the United States and not to slaves in states not in rebellion."
@@Mortalnomad As historian Jeffrey Rogers Hummel said in his book, Emancipating Slaves, Enslaving Free Men, "The Civil War represents the simultaneous culmination and repudiation of the American Revolution"
To think that anyone in a republic born out of secession from England would deny the right to self-determination, as was enshrined in the Declaration of Independence to any of its component sovereign states is crazy. Of course, there are a lot of crazy people in this world.
@@rayr5950 Begging your pardon, sir. But you have no idea what you’re talking about. Lincoln constitutionally justified the emancipation proclamation under the presidential war powers clause. Freeing the slaves of those states IN REBELLION, was equivalent of “seizing assets”. He admitted that, constitutionally, he had no power to disturb slavery in those slave states that remained loyal to the Union, ie-were not in rebellion. Also, the emancipation proclamation was only one move on the chessboard for Lincoln of an ongoing(work-in-progress, “situation is fluid”, etc) game. The end game was always the final end of slavery, which could only be accomplished by complete military victory, the destruction of the rebel army. Lincoln was, among other things, a master of timing and gauging public opinion, understanding exactly how far, and how fast he could go. I’m sorry if the situation, in all of its manifold complexity, is too complicated, and too nuanced, for your limited understanding(as it was for many at the time). The deeper one goes in studying Lincoln, in the context of his times, the more his genius and his greatness grows. Roll your sleeves up and dig deeper before spreading your specious revisionism & sophistry. PS- as to the right of secession, read Lincoln’s speech to Congress in special session, July 4, 1861. It addresses & answers every & any argument you or anyone else could possibly make on that subject. But just for shits & giggles, please cite the provisions in the Constitution that lay out the procedures for such secession…we’ll wait patiently for you. 🤣😂😎🙏🎩🇱🇷
Andrew Ferguson looks like how I wished my grandfather 👴 looked like. Plus he's dressed down.. casual and approachable. Andrew is probably really endearing and I'd love to grab a coffee ☕️ with him. It would probably be an interesting and long discussion.
A really good interview. However, I feel like Lincoln has been put up on too large of a pedestal and it creates a situation where any critique of Lincoln gets a person accused of "cancelling" Lincoln or accused of being neo confederate or something. No one is either all good or all bad. Thank you, overall a very good channel. 👍
Very true. The question is in reality who is canceling who? The left represented by Ferguson is a perfect example of trying to cancel real history and free speech that they don't like..
So what particular point do you think was not touched upon here? All I find missing is a Freudian analysis of Lincoln, which might be interesting for those who understand that sort of thing.
To your point; No one is either all good or all bad. Lincoln's good was so overwhelmingly influential I believe the pedestal is well earned.
Looking forward to episode 5
Can you add the guests’ titles and associated institutions in the show notes? These talks are wonderful and it would be nice to read the writings etc of the guests. Many thanks!
As a proud Brit and Englishman, how on earth do you cancel Abraham Lincoln? Perhaps the greatest of all US Presidents, although I recognise that is open to debate.
Burlingame in his Lincoln biography describes this 'slave' incident. This is the lates and most thorough treatment suince Hay and Nicplay's biography spaning ten volumes.
Great conversation. I believe it was not up to Lincoln for progress of black people; it is up to black people. Black people can do more for black people than a person of another race. The responsibility and accountability is unavoidable. Black people will pay for the performance of black people. I hope they do well. That's logic.
From Australia I would interested in another episode on Parkes the Father of Australian Federation. Please?
Someone should tell our guest knocking down statues and romanticizing politicians are two sides of the same coin.
I enjoy Douglas Murray immensely and I think Uncancelled History is very important. Lincoln is one of my heroes, maybe my first. I've been to his tomb in Springfield, Ill and recite the Gettysburg Address from memory. I don't agree with a lot of Ferguson's conjectures, but that's okay. What I can't ignore is when an historian misquotes his source, claims to have a witness to the erroneous statement and then uses it to disparage not only that author but other sources as well. It makes me wonder about the rest of the story.
I have also read the children's book that he and his skeptic friend cited. I first read it in 1957 in a compendium titled "Best in Children's Books Vol. 1" and I just read it again. I have two copies. 'Abraham Lincoln' by Ingri and Edgar Parin D'Aulaire, 1937 with 18 illustrations by the authors. Winner of the Caldecott Medal award as an outstanding children's book. (From the book's flyleaf)
Ferguson claims that the incident at the slave market was "one of the central scenes" of that story, and further, that the D'Aulaires quoted Lincoln as saying, "Someday I'm gonna hit that and I'm going to hit it hard." I don't know where Ferguson got the quote, I've never heard it before, but it wasn't from that book. Nor was this scene central to the story. The entire voyage from the Ohio River to New Orleans is told on a single page and the slave market experience occupies only two paragraphs. The authors describe very clearly what any slave market in America looked like in 1825 and don't quote him as saying anything, only suggesting that "Abe Lincoln thought that was cruel."
This matters because he is fueling the idea that books are filled with errors and can't be trusted, especially old books. And to use these books, these "Best in Children's Books" to push that narrative really annoys me. I received 42 volumes in the mail between age three and six and I learned more from that experience than kids do today in twelve years, as far as I can tell. And this story of Lincoln is wonderful, the illustrations are fantastic, a great story for kids. The authors trace his life with all the anecdotes and tragedies, but never mention a political party, nor Mary's shortcomings nor disagreements with his government. And mercifully, omit the last day of his life.
Thanks for clarifying that Citation. This speaker must have been thinking of another children's book. I sympathize because I too sometimes feel dementia creeping on .
When you think how close DC was to Richmond and Virginia, Lincoln had to have strict war time policies and keep control . The Confederates were very very close
Fascinating!
6:12 "If that's all Lincoln did,,,, aaahhhm we would still be grateful to him..." Why the "aaahhhm"? I suggest that it is rooted in 'grammar angst'. To be more exact, Mr. Ferguson seemed to detect mid-sentence that the 'subjunctive mood' was required here. However it was just slightly too late to make the transition to the past subjunctive, in order to correctly state, "If that were all Lincoln had done,..." That is quite a tricky sentence, grammatically speaking, so the slight gaffe here is more than forgiveable, especially in the overall context of an impressively knowledgeable presentation on the great former President Lincoln.
Would have been nice if Murray mentioned names of those who put Lincoln with Lee.
My hero. Lincoln was the greatest writer of the English language, the most erudite precise expression, sole author of every, word and, most important, momentous, progressive, commanding, liberal, atheist philosophy applied..... As, I think Seward, said to his fellow cabinet ministers after their first meeting "He is the best of us." He doesn't need a monument.
Secession was clearly about slavery. But too often slavery and secession are used interchangeably in these arguments. Lincoln did not invade the South to end slavery,
as he stated many times. He invaded to reverse the South's secession. But he had no good reason to consider war as his first option. One can always go to war, today,
tomorrow, next week, or next month. One cannot get out of war nearly so easily. But Lincoln chose war. He wanted it so badly that he had to drag the country kicking and
screaming to the war. He had to twist and bend the Constitution to do it. He had to imprison people who opposed it. He had to initiate a draft because enough Northerners
did not support the war. And he willingly chose to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of both Northerners and Southerners to do it. In fact one of his greatest wartime fears
was that other politicians might negotiate an end to the war before his personal objectives had been achieved.
And all this when there was no clear evidence that secession was illegal in the first place. That fact is the reason that no Confederates were charged with treason after the war.
Lincoln apologists point out that he never considered the Confederacy to be a country, but instead insisted it was American soil under rebellion. But he treated all Southerners
as enemies. He brought war to the cities and towns of the South, destroyed the infrastructure, and killed civilians. Is that any way to treat your countrymen? Even if insurgents
are embedded among them? He did it because, in spite of his words, they were another country, he knew it, and he was going to conquer it regardless of the cost.
Imagine if Lincoln had not chosen war in early 1861. Imagine if he had been as passionate about peace and reconciliation as he was about war. Imagine if all through the summer
and fall, he had used his undeniable superior political skills to salvage the relationship between North and South. Imagine US history with the Civil War never happening. With any
leader other that Lincoln, there is a very good chance that would have happened. How is it possible to revere such a man, and consider him our best president?
We can speculate forever about what would have happened had we pursued "the road not taken", but this we know: behind Door #1 is 600,000 dead Americans, Lincoln's own
death, and the misery of Reconstruction. Shouldn't we at least consider what might be behind Door #2?
There were even Northern abolitionists in favor of the Confederate States seceding that said to Pharoah Lincoln, let those people go! 🤨
Whether secession was legal or not, the south was clearly in favor of leaving the union - it’s not clear why a half million people needed to die in order to force the south back into the union. Something to be said for self determination.
@@MFK1967 I am not sure if you are agreeing with me or not, but you have a very good point.
@@MFK1967 Secession was clearly considered a legal option, the first secession movement was actually proposed by Northern members of the Federalist party who opposed the Embargo Act of 1807 and War of 1812. See...the Hartford Convention of 1814.
No one thought that any state may be forbidden from seceding from the union since every state was a sovereign entity.
What's clear is that Lincoln's illegal military invasion of the Confederacy was a repudiation of the principles of the Declaration of Independence.
Wonderful content
Their hatred knows no bounds. Mark my words: one day it's the statues of Frederick Douglass that will be torn down.
I would echo the positive comments below and add that these podcasts are a timely contribution to the battle against the societal madness that sees statues of our heroes defiled and destroyed. Some men and women, through their actions, are destined to alter the whole course of human history. You could add Newton, Gandhi, Genghis Khan, Mandela, Cook, Jobs, da Vinci, Joan of Arc, Turing, Curie, Pankhurst, Marx, and Darwin, to name but a few... but there's a finite number of heroes, and my hero may be your villain.
Douglas, I appreciate you and your excellent guests are demonstrating that individuals are complex and that their behaviour can be open to all sorts of interpretations. Indeed, the critical point is that their contribution to humanity was considered worthy at a certain point in our history. For that reason alone, we should accept these statues, even if they may, in the view of some, upset current-day sensibilities.
There's nothing wrong about recognizing Lincoln was an imperfect human being but the idea that he doesn't deserve our respect is asinine.
Lincoln moved emancipation along, a quantum move. However, it is up to black people for how they will do. Each individual will have his own personal measure.
When Lincoln did the circuit in a horse and buggy in snow rain sleet and all kinds of weather muddy roads slept in a different bed every night no McDonald's in the back country left his family and home for weeks. A lesser man wouldn't have done it
see Brion McClanahan on Lincoln
There is a statue of Mao and Lenin in San Antonio Texas. The statue depicts Lenin with a miniature of Mao on the top of his head. Andrew reminds me of Mark Twain.
I love Doulas Murray. I totally disagree with his Lincoln worship though. Ferguson is just another example of a Lincoln hagiographer. It’s tiresome.
You simply cannot hold to the founding principles of the USA and Lincoln. Lincoln’s legacy is as poisoned as Woodrow Wilson’s. Tyrants.
It's so crazy when you look at how everyone nowadays celebrates their smallest achievements (participation trophies) yet looks at people who achieved unimaginable things get thrown away for not being "perfect". Darn shame 😔
When was the Leviathan that we live under born? I would argue it was under FDR. If I lived before his reign, I would have said Lincoln. This in no way makes me a racist, but I guess nowadays if you're not being called a racist, you're probably a stooge of the regime.
Now more than ever we need to have an open, honest conversation regarding Lincoln. Putting him on a pedestal and creating a myth surrounding him isn't helping.
1913 with Woodrow Wilson and the progressive era.. income tax permanently instated, federal reserve, etc
Abraham Lincoln was my favourite dictator.
I liked his beard.
Americans love their dictators, the more tyrannical it seems, the more they are loved.
…..Said the guy who has probably never read a single biography of Lincoln, or any of his greatest political speeches, or studied American political history from the founding through the Civil War…😔
@@timothymeehan181 you don't need to have read biographies of Hitler or Mao to know that they were dictators. What gave Lincoln the right to make war on the south for succeeding from the union? There was nothing in the constitution that forbade succession, I wonder if any of those original states would have ever joined the union if they had known that within 100 years, they would be threatened with violence and crushed if they chose to leave. I often wonder what Washington would have said if he somehow could have seen what Tecumseh Sherman did to Atlanta. I think if any of the founding fathers had seen Atlanta burn they would have moved to Canada with the loyalists. The truth is that ever since the federal union of the u.s.a took shape, the rights of states would slowly be curtailed until they were amalgamated into one big super state like what you have now. If any of your states ever tried to succeed today (as is their right, a right which America would support anywhere else in the world), the u.s Military will destroy you. Nice country, cool values!
A merry dance around the unfortunate point that you can't *begin* to appreciate the genius of Lincoln by simply looking at his various writing and statements outside the context of politics and the political climate of his age. This is where Jon Meacham's latest, And Let There Be Light, excels. It works *strenuosly* to put you into the prevailing and developing climate of Lincoln's day. Yes, we may think we know what Lincoln was saying but *more important* was what everyone else was, everywhere in the country. Lincoln as some hero exists in a sad vacuum, alas.
Andrew Ferguson obviously loves Lincoln.
So nice they invited this young gentleman so he can explain how it was when he was young..