Uncancelled History with Douglas Murray | EP. 02 Colonialism
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 ก.ย. 2024
- Bruce Gilley joins Douglas Murray on this episode to discuss one of the biggest criticisms of the west - Colonialism. From antiquity to modernity, the two give an in-depth examination of the practice. Should Colonialism stay cancelled?
Uncancelled History re-evaluates events, people, and ideas that have otherwise been cancelled from the past. Learn more at www.uncancelledhistory.com
Douglas Murray is a British author and political commentator, who - along with his guests - looks at great figures of the past through their historical context.
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#Colonialism #History #Documentary #Podcast #DouglasMurray
As a Nigerian, my opinion on colonialism will be more nuanced than that of most westerners. On one hand, it was brutal in some ways but on the other it did play a huge role in bringing much of Africa into the modern age via introduction of modern tech, medicine, western education, and nation building.
Also, one major good it did was abolish slavery. I cannot be more thankful for the British using their naval power and economic might to suppress the slave trade in Africa. Oh, I know they partook in it for a time, themselves, but it existed here long before whites ever came to Africa. Even my own ancestors of the Edo kingdom were slavers. What makes the British different is that unlike other regional African and Arab powers, they had the cultural & religious framework, wisdom, humanity and courage to actually stop the evil of slavery even at huge cost to their economy. God bless them.
Sir you are wrong, you are looking at it surface level. Please read Fatherless by Dele Ogun and get back to me.
Hear hear 👏 well said my good sir. As a descendant of Arab slavers from the Omani city of Sur. I wholeheartedly agree with your statement, and applaud you for it.
@Lil Rawri read the book first and get back to me
@Lil Rawri That's up to them. You can only offer people a pathway to enlightenment if they reject there is nothing you can do
You can tell somebody to read a book and you can indoctrinate children, or you can just speak some facts and if somebody wants to know where you got your facts, then you recommend a book. But lots of parts of Africa were doing well before the western civilization came to Africa. A lot of Muslim conquerors and Jehovah witness type Muslims were coming to a lot of African territories and built states, but before the west and Islam, Africa want just a bunch of sitting ducks, they were building too.
This was like a tall glass of water after slogging through days and days of parched burning desert! Such a relief to hear a discussion based on research, facts and common sense!
Moscow troll.
@@busterbiloxi3833
Duhhh
Who, you ?!? 😂
@@busterbiloxi3833
Moscow trolls are Marxists - that comment is not marxist.
Currently, in Hong Kong, you have people wanting the British to return because Chinese Imperialism is so much more suffocating than British colonialism ever was. Such has turned out to be the case in many countries.
A poll in Jamaica had the majority wanting British rule again because of the massive corruption they now have.
BULLS#^T. Get OFF your medication. It's clearly not working.
Hear hear, I quote Murray few years back… “If you’re one of those who’ve opposed the global American hegemony… just wait, you’re gonna love the Chinese hegemony.” 😆
source?
Not just in Hong Kong. The same sentiment came from more educated people in India, Africa, you name it. I am still old enough to remember it.
It has died down now because almost all people who saw life in colonies both before and after independence are now dead, and younger people have not known the old colonial life. So they have nothing to compare with the only life they know. So they fall for propaganda.
There is a very interesting case of the author V.S. Naipaul. Author of many books of generally anti-colonial direction, he was lauded to the sky for most of his life. Proclaimed "the greatest living English language writer."
Until he wrote a book that was not quite like others, that expressed general regret over the passing of the old ways, and disappointment with what has come instead..
And right away he almost disappeared from the literary scene.
The more I’m told to hate my heritage and culture, the more I find to love in it.
Sounds like you have no moral backbone or capacity for critical thought
Well said.
Afrikaner Boer?
@sarahhale-pearson533
Feel this way about Fourex (Queenslander)
🥂
There is perspective in everything
The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly
But yup ownership your heritage is important
A breath of fresh air. Who would've thought just a few years ago that two lads talking about real things without shame would be such a treat. Thanks boys, brilliant conversation.
Douglas is probably my favorite public intellectual. I love Jordan Peterson, but Douglas is so well-spoken and sharp and has a humor and depth that is unparalleled
How embarrassing for you. Murray is bad enough, but Peterson? Jesus effing Christ, that dude isn't a "public intellectual," he's a word-salad-spewing headcase, and a dumb person's idea of a smart person
@@christheghostwriter Sure thing, what have you done worth noting that you're the expert. What a hateful and poorly thought out attack
@@chadjohns6955 I've read some of Peterson's writing and I've heard him speak. Like I said, he's a dumb person's idea of a smart person. He spews a lot of multisyllabic word salad, and weak-minded man-simps eat it up. The funniest part is how so many people (mostly dudes) listen to this emotionally fragile, Kermit-the-Frog-sounding crybaby for lessons on masculinity 😂😂😂😂😂
@@christheghostwriter real thoughtful analysis of ad hominem attacks. Nothing of substance, what I expect from a hateful person such as you appear to be. Good luck going on comment sections to talk about how much better you are than everyone actually doing something of value in the world
And a master builder of straw men he likes to serve up to his interlocutors. He's no public intellectual, he's a self publicising right wing contrarian shill.
The fact is that many of the British colonies were very well run. Rhodesia was once called the Switzerland of Africa. It had a highly developed infrastructure, including first class hospitals, a highly professional and dedicated civil service. It was also the bread basket of central Africa. Corruption was practically unheard of. As Zimbabwe the country has become a failed state constantly on the brink of starvation brought down by a gang of half-baked Marxists groomed by the Chinese who are now gnawing on the bones of what’s left. This is the truth. I know it because I was there.
Still depended on the unprovoked murder of millions. Is that worth some nice admin I guess?
"Once" ... reallly makes you think that Africa for Africans is a HUGGGE Mistake.
So sorry to hear, my disseration was partially on the efforts to turn Zanu guerrillas through the protected villages program.
Rhodesia was wellrun because they did it for themselves not the natives. An adult native couldnt even buy a bicykle without getting a permission. Something even white teenagers could do in Rhodesia.
It was great for whites but the blacks did not like it. Is Mugabes reign better ? No but that dont justify the Rhodesian oppression.
Not all colonialists are made equal. Observe the contrast with the colonies ruled by the French for example. What a blight on humanity.
What a delight to listen to Douglas and his guests. I don't want these episodes to ever stop..
I'm afraid that they will so I make sure that share them and get the word out.
This one was mind-blowing. I even found myself laughing at some points because I know how badly some of the things said here will piss certain people off.
I do
What a breath of fresh air it is to listen to a balanced conversation. It's a shame it won't reach the eyes and ears of the people who need to listen to this. Sadly, their eyes and ears are closed to this information.
Or the people whose ancestors were murdered by the Colonialists and heard about the murders via their own family's stories?
Sadly, you are a Moscow troll.
Utube gets many criticisms but where else could such a discussion occur…be so easily available….certainly not on television
Who watches television now ?
I loosely quote Murray few years back… “Those ideologically against the global American hegemony… just wait, you’re gonna love the Chinese hegemony.” 😆
The African people seem to appreciate the Chinese people. Maybe because the Chinese people treat them with respect instead of enslaving and genociding them, and stealing their natural resources.
In a couple of decades these two will be replaced by two Chinese academics making exactly the same argument about how western civilization was corrupt and now there is a superior more advanced civilization everyone lives under, the Chinese one. So don't be so cocky
I am against American hegemony, but the alternatives are sooooo much worse so I stopped talking about it.Some naive people think if you stop one hegemony its over.Its not, another takes its place.So all hail our American "overlords" ;p
Or the islamist...
😂
What's compelling about Gilley is he is so intellectually centered regarding his interest in truth of history and the principles of his field. The whole 'culture war' and the wokism that is lined up against him seems to just run off his back like water. There's no axe to grind or reactive stance that would undoubtedly consume others. He displays an admirable degree of personal integrity.
What does ‘intellectually centred’ mean?
@@lectorintellegat I would take it to mean non biased/ objective fact and evidence based/ emotionally, ideologically and politically neutral
@@davidlloyd-jones8519 Spot on.
@@davidlloyd-jones8519 thanks. And am I missing something about how being in the ‘centre’, intellectual, pertains to objectivity?
Strikes me as a clumsy and imprecise Americanism, that could mean anything to anyone.
@@lectorintellegat Agreed it was clumsy and imprecise - and my response was equally clumsy and imprecise - . and whislt i am not an authority as to what was originally meant - i do think my stab at it was pretty reasonable - in fact i would - could say that my respnse was 'intellectually centered.
PS - not that the word used was centered - not center.
And no, centered does not equal objective - but it does likely mean - or lean toward non biased.
PPS - the comment by KB seems to have hit a chord too - so if you would prefer the word consensual as opposed to objective - that sounds reasonable too - no problem
When I was in highschool we were taught that there were pros and cons to colonialism. Indigenous people suffered to some extent but also benefitted from being colonized. We accepted this as common sense. Any teacher who says this today would practically be signing his own resignation letter because he'd be fired for suggesting such a thing.
Depends on where you were ,the new world was strange scenario where majority died from diseases due to lack of immunity rather just being killed or butchered.
which helps explain why we have the problems we have as a society and why today's school leavers are in some ways deeply intolerant of any opposing views.
An issue with this is that colonialism also had murder and a degree of shaming involved. Whether one outweighs the other is the problem.
@John Not Real Name that's not a phenomenon related to colonialism and also exists without colonialism, isn't it?
@@davidw8668 Sure a non-Colonial government can do that and indeed many pre-colonial places had dubious practices to write the least. Human sacrifice for example. Considering another less than human too.
Excellent. Thank you both. I cannot believe this man escaped Portland alive, but I am glad he did. Brave man.
In Canada we are currently experiencing a hysterical wave of anti-colonialism, to the point where any challenge to the existing, dogmatic narrative is met with social, cultural and even legal prosecution.
We're deemed as racist for not completely condemning our own people
my university, like the others in Canada, are obsessed with "decolonizing" and "indigenizing" everything, which one can only assume means removing "colonial" things like rights, democracy, science, logic, philosophy, equality, peace, private property, etc.
@@jacobmatthews7524 The universities have been subverted by Marxists in Canada!
@@Strange9952Your people are not condemned, its the actions of your ancestors that are condemned.
If you were condemned then there would be groups of First Nation people terrorising and blowing up airplanes for their freedom.
@@jacobmatthews7524LOL You think the West or Europe has a patent on "democracy", "rights", law, science, logic ??
Everything you claim to be "Western" was Stolen from the Greeks/Romans by your ancestors who were themselves "civilised" by the Romans. Science, logic, philosophy were all again borrowed from the East by Europeans. Including mathematics, engineering, even the written language itself.
Egyptians were building pyramids when your ancestors lived naked in caves! The Chinese had pottery and agriculture when you people couldn't even cook meat!
The Indians invented steel while your ancestors didn't even know how to Smith iron.
The Aztecs, the Babylonians, the Indus Valley, etc all were building Hydro projects like Dams and Canals while Europe was populated by tribes of hunter gatherers living in mud huts and caves.
Democracy existed in thousands of cultures - in China, India, Mesopotamia, Phonecia, the Iroquois of North America etc. Stop this delusion that it is some Western invention.
In NZ in pre-European times, Maori were "colonising"" neighbouring tribes and sticking them in the ground oven. Radical Maori academics will say that this was a spiritual cultural practice. Actually, as Neil Oliver wrote in a recent book, eating and then defecating your enemy was the greatest dishonour. The British manifestly did not eat the colonised peoples, rather it was the other way round.
I would like to pay respect like that to Nell Oliver
And yet..."we" in the West haven't been taught that. Wonder why....
( Reminds me of the time when speaking with a Mexican-born/raised-turned-American-Citizen who was talking down about the history of American slavery and its evil, so I turned it back in the spirit of fairness and mentioned the Aztec brutality, human sacrifice included. He suddenly went speechless, his gears churning out some congnitively dissonant comeback, then muttered it had its purpose. LOL. Yeah, OK. It's not so Either/Or now, is it? World History is far more complicated than the Leftists would have us believe in their veiled racism. )
Why invent the wheel when you can wait for one to be delivered...
@@jamesclark6487 - LoL. Nice.
To be fair, a least the Maori didn't intentionally starve 3 million natives of India to death, like Winston "the Aryan man will prevail" Churchill did.
Thomas Sowell has spoken and written extensively and eloquently on this subject for many years. His voice needs to be more widely heard. Good show Douglas.
Sowell is a national treasure
Any specific videos or writings where Sowell discussed colonialism?
Sowell talks at great length about the history of slavery. Sowell is essentia listening (TH-cam) and to me is a brilliant voice of wisdom, as indeed the whole of this conversation is. @@Pan_Z
Dr. Thomas Sowell is one of my all time favorite people. I so wish that young black people would listen to him. They would see how race baiters like Sharpton have so misled them.
@@Pan_Z You have a YT search bar? It is easy to find videos.
Bruce Gilley, we need you. Thanks for writing books for the rest of us.
Ahh. Found more Murray! I will soak this series up. Looks like i am 11 months late but who cares. Douglas is timeless.
So well said!
I read his paper "A Case for Colonailism".It was excellent.I would heartily recommend it.
She didn't presumably make her objection known through the form of interpretive dance, did she?" 🤣 Murray is gold.
I agree. His level of sarcasm is legendary, especially in the recent Munk Debate. He's actually a very good interviewer; I didn't realise how good.
@@tchai91 I need to watch that Munk debate. Haven't seen it yet. Thanks for the recommendation.
If you’re a fan of Malcolm Gladwell’s books, which I am, the debate unfortunately shines a not very positive light on him.
@Captain Teabag I haven't read him, but look forward to watching the debate. Cheers.
@@quintbromley2112 - An audio-only version of the debate is available here on U tube. Not yet found a full video version. Gladwell is clearly unprepared and behaves disgracefully, quickly turning to throwing ‘-isms’ and ‘-ists’.
WOW. Douglas, this is a fantastic interview (and series). Your discussion with Bruce goes beyond the superficial and provides a much needed overview from someone who truly understands his subject and isn't afraid to provide facts that contradict the "narrative." It's exactly the type of interview that's been missing from TH-cam. Many thanks for all of the care and hard work you've put into this series. I look forward to watching (and recommending) all of these discussions.
Give it a rest. Name me one profound fact which was discussed. Just one. "goes beyond the superficial" When did that happen?
@@AminTheMystic 28:22 and onward is pretty interesting to my ear. Goes beyond the surface level talk of how governance, economies and other things should just be returned to indigenous peoples...and that's it. Hearing that Marxism was the "return to" system that anti-colonialists were pushing for in some cases was also interesting to learn. Really it's a good long-form discussion that gives a counter to some idealized storylines in history (like Ghandi not being as much of a factor for independence as we might like to think). Maybe these are all things you already knew, so congrats if you've done as deep of a dive as the host and guest. But why be bothered some of us found this vid to be quite good?
@@justinp.3256 "But why be bothered some of us found this vid to be quite good?" because if you are THIS pig ignorant over the subject, then who do you think you are defining what is "profound"? And calling Gandhi a 'silly man' is superficial, textbook meaning of the word. On top of that, Gilley clearly says one thing, and Murray another. Even Murray doesn't know what he is saying. But as long as it's vaguely anti-woke and pro your own biases, then it must be automatically good.
Gilley is lying through his teeth when he sums up that there were no indigenous anti-colonial movements. It's counter to basic history. But then there are ignoramuses who'd lap up and revel in their ignorance... and label nonsense like this as deeply profound.
I'd love to see a proper debate between this chap and those on the other side of it.
@@jumblestiltskin1365 yes. but he won't. this academic sits on twitter carping.
I'm from New Zealand and I can unequivocally say that British colonialism was the best thing that happened here.
Never ending treaty settlements! When will that end?
Of course: without British colonialism there would be no All Blacks (Peace Be Upon Them) :)
You are British, no native. Of course, you will think in that way.
BTW, always go to the dentist
Fantastic interview and comments from viewers. For people who do not wish to live in ignorance by the censorship of facts and canceling the informed points of view of others, this video and series are of tremendous value and a godsend. Thank you.
How refreshing to be able to listen to intelligent, clear-thinking, open-minded people discussing matters in this way, giving themselves time to discover a more nuanced view instead of clambering aboard some guilt-trip bandwagon or other.
Excellent interview. I've watched Bruce Gilley on his own channel, but his insight and understanding was brought to a higher pitch in this interview, thanks to Douglas Murrays intelligent listening and questioning. The conclusion that the "Anti's" are driven by resentment to spread their intellectual fog is spot on.
A lot of these left-wing independence movements were led by middle to upper class individuals who benefited from the education that colonial powers provided them. Unsurprisingly, individuals in the same social classes in the West are propagating and defending the way that these movements conducted themselves.
Giving this a pre-emptive thumbs up based on the excellent quality of the discussion on General Lee.
I'm DEEPLY appreciative of Douglas (who's long been one of my favorite contemporary social commentators in any case) and all those involved for making intellectual discourse available on these subjects. Thanks a million!!
Happy to hear it, Dave! Thanks for watching
@@douglasmurray This man is simply bias is own way, you're no better than the progressively minded on that front in promoting him over others. Historians needn't be political but this guy clearly is. He's arrogant, he's still telling people what they're 'allowed' to think.
He will empower white supremacists even if he technically isn't one.
Funny how he neglected to mention any of the massacres conducted upon black/brown people.
Excellent show, Douglas. I am currently reading Professor Gilley's "The Case for Colonialism" after watching his interview with Peter Boghossian; fascinating stuff. Thank you for creating this new series - I look forward to more content.
Gosh, this is a bit grown up for the 2020s! Measured and informed - very old fashioned. Thank you.
As someone who has lived in Africa for decades and visited most of its countries at one time or another, I found this video fascinating. I agreed with Professor Gilley right up until the point where he brushed off Chinese economic Imperialism. His position was that the Chinese do not seek to assert their own systems of government upon African nations, which is true, but he completely ignores the influence that China has gained in global organisations such as the UN and WHO with the aid of votes from its client nations.
For example, China has almost completely shut down any debate about the origins of Covid-19 having previously installed a representative from a client state as head of WHO.
Similarly, one cannot dismiss the fact that China enjoys a virtual monopoly on the raw materials needed for global electrification, as demanded by elements, of the UN, which also mostly emanate from Africa.
Perhaps Bruce should take another look at Chinese Imperialism.
Absolutely.
Thank you very much for this brilliant and fascinating discussion around Colonialism. For me, an enlightening and very welcome series - look forward to the next episode.
Thanks Carolyn, we're glad to hear you liked the episode! Please like and subscribe for new episode notifications!
Thank you @@douglasmurray Liked and subscribed!
Very interesting and well-conducted interview, great speakers. However, I missed a discussion of the alleged economic exploitation of colonies by the colonial powers, transfer of raw materials and other forms of wealth, etc. That is a major point of modern criticism of the colonial era and it would have been interesting to hear both speakers on that issue.
@@janbohanes7096 Because they can't defend it. It's very obvious that raw materials were stolen and not compensated for.
@@joshuataylor3550 Well, obviously sweeping statements like these don't enable a nuanced, rigorous discussion
Subscribed after episode 1. Sharing with all my friends after episode 2. What a breath of fresh air. Thank you to Douglas Murray and Nebulous Media for putting out this content.
💯…so much is accepted and spouted nowadays as truth without proof or knowledge. Thank goodness there are those who are wiser and present a truer picture.
Brilliant. Simply brilliant. Thank you both for bravely wading into such controversial, but necessary topics of conversation.
Mr Murray , I start the day looking for your interviews,speeches etc! I was born in a British colony,and deeply regret that they left. I do believe that the British Empire was a force for good,just like the Roman Empire. Thank you .
The Roman Empire?! They are the ones who destroyed the Second Temple and exiled most of the Jews from Israel. They also conquered Britain. Had the Roman Empire lasted, there would have been no British Empire
"What have the Romans ever done for us?"
Great podcast. It is such a breath of fresh air to talk about subjects in an open intellectual manner. Thank you!
The world still has a chance so long as this kind of interview can be had and aired. Enjoyed the interview immensely (bought his book).
High school teacher here in a very conservative Catholic school. Our textbooks repeat these lies, too. The Belgian Congo is the perfect example. We must not let sensationalism and ignorance supplant real learning!
What are the lies about the Belgian Congo?
@@semilio1 I'd like to follow up on this point. The atrocities committed by the Belgians in the Congo are some of the worst ever recorded. Thumbs cut off, people burnt alive, children raped and killed, if the quota of work wasnt met. This is all publicly available information, you can see pictures and documented evidence of this. What on earth do you mean this is lies? It's scary and honestly sad, that we even have to debate what happened to the Congolese people during Belgian rule
@@dheerajthapliyal9533 I wanted to get an answer from Mattison Hale since he is a high school teacher in a conservative school.
Belgian Congo occurred
@@dheerajthapliyal9533thats the congo free state. These cruelties also happened in the rubber colonies of france portugal and germany in africa. Why dont you talk about those
Wonderfully refreshing interview, Bruce Gilley is a gem! Thank you mr. Murray.
Wonderfully racist
I did not know that Mr. Murray had his own site, I am so happy It did show in my feed, I subscribed of course
yes.... I never thought to find him this way.... and now I have him.... or he has my attention by subscription as well
The interpretive dance quip was absolutely priceless. Thank F**k for Douglas Murray. I've been bored forever by history due to poor school options that left me having to chose between History & Geography.
I find this series fascinating.
Thanks.
Murray loves dancing. In drag.
@@busterbiloxi3833 Which one, Norwegian or Romanian?
Of course, Murray would have had all the 'options' where he schooled. Why do you think yours were so poor?
@@paramidge8935 My year was the GCSE 'guinea pig' year during the teacher training strikes. The entire system changed that year causing absolute havoc.
We were taught the wrong curriculum for Physics resulting in nobody passing the higher paper due to a mix-up in examination boards. It was the year course work became 40% of the final grade.
The teachers were missing for most of the time. It was a complete mess. From 'Options' to Subjects, everything was turned upside down, often without the teacher's knowledge.
Finally an adult discussion
They get very emotional about those that disagree with them...
@@joshuataylor3550 Tjhat was not at all my perception. They could care less if people disagree or not. There emotional about not being able to state there case without being attacked. Thje attacks are always ugly as ther character assasinate rather than listening to a perspective that is not allowed to be stated without backlash. L/Chaim
I really love Douglas Murray, I've read every one of his books several times and I try to read as many articles of his that I can. However, in the recent years, I've become increasingly bored with all the woke stuff. While I agree with him on all of it, I'm so tired of hearing the same things over and over again. I expected this to be in the same vein but it was actually a really insightful video. I learned a lot and I will definitely be reading some of Bruce Gilley's works!
Agreed
I understand what you mean, but if Douglas is offered a couple of grand every time he's invited on podcasts/news channels to be the voice of reason, I don't blame him for accepting.
@@tchai91 agreed, I dont blame him either. obviously want him to make as much money as possible; but hopefully that will eventually allow him enough freedom to go back to writing about other things
Hearing about the woke nonsense is certainly tiring and increasingly depressing. Every week it just seems to get worse. But occasionally, interviews appear that shine a bright light in the darkness - the last such was when Dr Gilley appeared on the Triggernometry podcast. Well worth a look-see!
Check out Gilley's TH-cam video "Why they loved Hitler".
I am so glad you are doing this. As a HS teacher and someone who got a history degree almost no pro of colonialism were/ are ever mentioned. Once I got an econ MA and really thought about opportunity cost it really became clear that History is complicated. Costs and benefits. Half way through, well done.
I spent 20 years in Africa witnessing the collapse of former colonies. It was so sad to see.
Yeah, you probably bemoaned the end of apartheid.
@@georgeokoro1149 well, since you mentioned it, what had replaced the old apartheid government has turned out to be far worse for black South Africans than apartheid ever was: Endemic corruption, a collapsing economy and education and zero job creation.
My experience was further north with the various black tyrants there: Nyerere, Amin, Bokassa, Banda, Kaunda, Mugabe, Machele etc. All genocidal maniacs who the left gave a free pass to.
Native Americans were colonizing each other for centuries before Westerners came onto the scene.
Indeed. I have a Masters degree in native American languages and was taught without any sense of Western superiority that such civilizations as the Inka, Maya and Aztec were imperial. The Inka imperial state stretched from contemporary Colombia to the southernmost tip of Chile on the Pacific Coast, encompassing Bolivia and half of Brazil to the West.
@@NastazyaPhylipovnaTchornayaoh I would love to sit down with you and have a long talk!
The Chinese colonised Vietnam for a thousand years before the Vietnamese chucked them out.
As a Portuguese I thank you; I am fed up of being tagged promoter of slavery
Yes, you were a promoter of slavery. You were the first to come to West Africa and the last to leave. You did not leave voluntarily; you were pushed out. Yes, you ought to feel bad.
A spitfire of a man. Would love to read a book from him covering the history of colonialism as a whole
There's so many perspectives and so much history to dig, it depends on the person that does the digging to build their perspective. I have my own perspective and channel and I haven't gotten to colonialism on video yet because I'm starting from the beginning. But I'll get there eventually. I have tons of resources and notes though that form my own story.
Enjoyed this discussion between 2 good men,with respect for each other.I have learned a considerable amount of of history of empires. Would love to have more of these 2. Thanks indeed.
Glad you enjoyed it!
@@douglasmurray They left out anything negative. Very bias view of history. Cherry picking for the mob.
Always speak truth, no matter the cost. That is integrity.
This was funny! I love a good parody of history. 😅😅😅😅😅😅😅. This might be one of SNL's best!
Thanks for starting this series I'm really enjoying the concept as it delves into topics/people that I had only known in a shallow way. I like the framing of 'rounder' explanation, as its non-accusatory/inflammatory and shows the necessity of understanding a whole and its context. Although I did not have any concrete opinions about colonialism in the past I was caused to muse to myself that it must surely be hard to condemn something, while also maintaining that you cannot talk about it. It seems any condemnation without context is sure to loose any meaning or cultural impact over time. Subscribed.
Mr Gilley is dressed like your typical university history professor. He also looks like my 1986 high school ancient history teacher, Mr Ryan. He eventually went into politics. He was one of those rare teachers who inspired his students and left a lifelong mark on them. I have Mr Ryan to thank for my lifelong interst in history. Today, I homeschool our 15 year old son and history is my most favourite subject to research for his curriculum and learn about myself. We just completed a 25 page research project on Australia (where we love). Before we pulled him out of the public education system he told me he wasn't learning about white British colonial history. That they were only ever teaching about aboriginal history. We have rectified that and he now knows about his white ancestry past. That is his fathers heritage. Mine is from the Canary Islands and is of Spanish heritage. I have also taught him about the history of the islands and how he has Guanche Aboriginal DNA in him (he has had his DNA done to confirm it) and he knows the Portuguese, Italians and Spanish Conquistadors invaded the Islands but not without a brave 100 year long fight by the Guanches. The last king "Mencey" to die was Mencey Bencomo and he died in a brave battle worthy of a Warrior. Our son likes Vikings so once he found out he is descended from Guanche Warriors he is proud of his ancestry.
Under tribal law the headman had the power of life and death. A husband could accuse his wife of unfaithfulness and given the corruption the wife would be mutilated or killed. This stopped with the introduction under the British of two tier law, civil law and criminal law.
What are you talking about? Africans had no standing in British Courts. Their prior land claims were ignored and the British Court handed out bits of paper that then let British Soldiers violently evict Africans from their own land.
Both of you are beautiful souls...forever thankyou.
Wow. I had to read King Leopold’s Ghost for a western civ class last year and I totally bought into the numbers. I was appalled by it. I saw evidence of bias but I couldn’t fathom a figure so serious being misrepresented. Thank you both for presenting the truth.
What "truth"?. "Ghost" may be sensationalist to a point but there's plenty of other material which corroborates much of it. Perhaps the numbers are exaggerated but he points to many depopulated villages, etc etc. Sleeping Sickness was raging at the time too. 10 million is certainly a lot but this was someone else's estimate as I remember, Hochschild just quotes it.
How refreshing to see something like this on youtube. Keep it up Douglas Murray, you are a credit to our civilization!
Outstanding discussion. I learnt a great deal from that. Amazing how much one can learn when open discussion & debate is allowed!
Thank you.
Thanks Doug for having the balls to publish this.
Why? It's just a regurgitation of patriarchal narrative, same as has been taught for 100s of years. Nothing new.
An interpretive dance professor took offence to a scholarly paper on colonialism.
Imagine my shock!😂😂😂
Much like an ice cream company demanding the US return to native rule. We live in a very strange new world.
Very well said guys, truth and common sense is like music to my ears 😂
Absolutely fascinating - thanks both. My uni is going through decolonisation and as a biologist, I'm not equipped to properly resist, even though I can identify obvious flaws e.g. that many of the ideas behind decolonisation are at least contested - we require erudite debate. Of that, there has been little.
Same situation at my university. Except I’m doing an MA in History and it’s just a constant barrage of anti-colonial/anti-Western bias. The recommended reading lists consist almost entirely of Marxists, Anti-colonialists, and postmodernists. In order to get a more balanced perspective of colonial history you have to read way outside of the recommended reading lists. If anyone is interested in the history of the British Empire I would recommend the work of: Tirthankar Roy, Zareer Masani, Jeremy Black, Niall Ferguson, and even Kartar Lalvani’s book ‘The Making of India: The Untold Story of British Enterprise’ is worth checking out. 👍🏻
@Mal Preece - sounds awful. The best way to fight this is student feedback. Please complain, even if anonymously. I'm refusing to decolonise my teaching material, based on the premise that it's racist to do so. I teach, based on the quality of the material, not the ethnicity of the individuals who produced it.
Read Thomas Sowell, Douglas Murray, James Lyndsay and Helen Pluckrose they will give you the tools to resist.
Compared to what? Is the ultimate question.
Are universities aware of how their reputation has plummeted among the general public in recent years? A genuine question as what's happening in colleges seems utterly surreal in its stupidity and bigotry to outsiders looking in. Must be grim to work there.
@John Neville - it's a mixed picture where I work. Senior management are of the view that society want decolonisation etc. They also don't seem to see that academics are afraid to speak out on a host of issues for fear of retribution - loss of collaborations and maybe even being forced out of post. Older academics, and some younger ones, smell the bullshit. But for the moment, there's collective madness in the air that's difficult to counter.
Hello Douglas. Thank you! I've read your books and look forward to receiving Bruce Gilley's book on Colonialism. I am a huge supporter of Britain and the Commonwealth and will be better equipped to defend it.
The elephant in the middle of the room where this discussion is taking place is Christianity and Christian mission. It was Christianity that created all the superior features of European culture, which were transferred to other cultures. The idea of equality and improvement was also a key Christian insight.
This idea gets a bit sticky when Christianity becomes the driving force of mass murder and mayhem in North America towards natives
@@mattwilliams7454 and what’s interesting about comments like this, there are never accompanying specifics, of the type Prof. Gilley supplies. They make reference to broadly unsubstantiated ahistorical claims - “Christianity became the driving force of mass murder” - and expect, on the strength of stoking a kind of tabloid newspaper outrage, to be taken seriously. The Woke movement is entirely peopled with these. In fact, what the historical record shows, as with the Guarani of Paraguay among many others, the church fought actively on the side of indigenous people against their enemies, European and otherwise. The central vice of you woke types is your disrespect for actual history in your rush to blackwash any idea your general ignorance has singled out as suitable to your stupid, virtue-signaling outrage.
@@brysonyoung8273 much like the conflict in Rwanda, the type, and seriousness of the atrocities ended up being stoked by the church. If you need a recap on Rwanda I can forward some articles there too.
I disagree in fact Christianity was more often than not a retarding force against the rise of European development.
Sadly, a lot of those colonists who claimed to be Christians, were not, & history tells us 😢they did a lot of un- Christian things.
On a visit to Kenya in 1991 as my friend and I sat around a table with 8-10 local natives, a gentleman, who looked remarkably like Sammy Davis Jr, explained to me that Kenya was better under British rule, because the British weren't racist, they treated every tribe and every white employee in the same way. He said we were respectful when we addressed them, and that British nurses were kind to the native children, not like the native nurses of that day.
Employment was merit based and recommendations, not on tribal connections as in that day.
Brought up in the 60s &70s I have always been grateful for that trip and what I saw and heard.
They treated me most respectfully while I was there, I was just 32.
Great talk. 2 great and interesting men.This should be shown in schools the length and breadth of the country.
As a Russian (and British for the last 28 years) I DO have a problem with British Empire…
Why on Earth you didn’t come to Russia and invade us?!😖
We would have lived like Canada or Alaska by now, probably even better considering our natural resources, and would have fed the whole world. Would have had a well established democracy, no Gulag, and possibly neither WWII would have happened. And certainly no invasion in Ukraine…😢
You deluded muppet. The Americas were inhabited by the Europeans and most of the natives killed or died. Nearly of the places BE rules are not democracies, or poor ones.
I’ve read a futurist writing in 1901 about the world of 2001 (among many accurate predictions) he thought the two most spoken languages worldwide would be English and Russian…
How different the world would be if the 20th century played out less tragically for Russia.
Nobody is blaming the Russian citizens for what is happening in Ukraine, we know that the leaders of both our worlds are behind this conflict, and Russia is also part of the great European civilizations, remember the first human in space was a Russian.
They did invade in 1919 but were beaten back by the Bolsheviks, along with the United States.
Because it's too cold. Even for an Englishman.
What a wonderful discussion. The intelligence and erudition of Murray and Gilley gives so much pleasure. The inability of the woke generation to ignore, misunderstand or re-write history is frankly appalling. Subscribed!
Wonderful discussion? Really? How would you like it if Africans and Asians were to come over and colonise Europe? Impose it's language, religion, culture and values on you and your kind? Oh wait, I almost forgot, it's already happening. Thank God
Its soooooo nice.., putting it on repeat and playing it all night
@@evaristus4821you obviously didn’t listen to the conversation
Oh yes, yes, yes. It almost feels liberating.
Superb! I shall be buying his book on Sir Alan Burns.
A wonderful interview, thank you both very much. I actually am that hated figure, a colonialist! Born, brought up and educated in Kenya I had the most wonderful childhood, not mainly among my own white tribe, but amongst the indigenous peoples. The Mau Mau was a cruel and unnecessary horror as the country was galloping fast towards a freedom for all. And Kenya today is a good place to live, safer than the U.K.
As a scholar of African history, I am impressed with Dr. Gilley, and your own story. I've always belived Kenya had Africans who opposed the Mau Mau.
OK, but what is your opinion about Black African immigration into the UK (or the West in general)?
Mambo Louise - I have emigrated from UK to maumau homeland Nyeri and would totally agree that Kenya is a far safer and less F'kd up place - the people here are GREAT.
Nothing like what you would imagine from the woke westerners.
In fact i have discovered that whilst the origins of maumau had their genuine grievances - soldiers not being given land post burma war..
It was the marxists (during the end of cold war) who poured petrol onto the fire - and so the whole thing became more of a conflict between western ideology and marxist ideology.
The marxists wanted to be the cultural colonizers - and sadly the kenyans got caught up in the middle
Bora kabissa
@@najbritcol Immigration into UK - Well in my personal opinion/ philosophy - when you see 10,000 people moving in one direction, then you do not follow like a sheep, you should realise that the opportunities have peaked - and it is now time to look elswhere and possibly go in the opposite direction.
Africa is now the future and the place to be.
I myself have emigrated from UK to Kenya - the opportunities are staggering
Jambo, rafiki! I also grew up in Kenya, where my grandparents went after WW1, & lived through the Mau Mau. I equate the Russian atrocities of today with those of the M.M. then. The intention of the Colonial administration of the 3 territories of Kenya, Uganda & Tanganyika was to make them fit to govern themselves at the earliest possible opportunity but thanks to MacMillan independence was rushed through at least 10 years too soon, leading to the problems in governance seen thereafter.
Throughout history colonialism has taken many different forms. If we would aspire to any standard of objectivity and of a balanced historical perspective, it is important that we distinguish between them. There were colonial enterprises which were popularly motivated and democratically organized while others were patently imperialist, brutally racist, and ruthlessly exploitative.
Brilliant discussion and insight . Academic excellence on full display.
Thanks for having these conversations Douglas. Alternative viewpoints and interpretations of these controversial topics are necessary and almost impossible to have in real life here in the Caribbean. You’d never hear this discussed at the University of the West Indies
I’ll also add this: our French neighbors (Martinique, Guadeloupe and French Guiana) see what has happened to their Anglo neighbors (Trinidad, Jamaica) and see their future if the metropolitan government left. They’d be dysfunctional best case like us, or a disastrous catastrophe like Haiti at worst. They sensibly avoid independence like the plague.
Gilley is clearly well studied and a wealth of historical knowledge. I loved the cold objectivity of his insights. Just the facts…
Listening to this reminds me of how much we have lost now that such nuanced views are taboo.
I rather feel the answer is to stop cowing to accusations of so called racism, and instead simply accept them.
Then get on with the task of ridding our institutions of these ideologues.
I like the idea of chartered spaces as a more modern and progressive form of colonialism.
I've been watching your interviews and common sense speaking out for about 4 years and am always so glad that you (Douglas) are willing to speak out, use your great knowledge of history, courage to stand against the madness and with that wonderful voice you have!
The problem is that the Europeans were not living up to the standards that they said were foundational to their culture - namely that all men are equal (mostly men), and that democracy was the basis of government (however that was defined exactly). This underlying hypocrisy leads to a tension that is at the root of many of the problems that resulted.. It is not enough to apply a lower standard and say that “everyone does the same”.
I may be the worst history student who ever lived. Certainly, my high school history teachers thought so. However, I've had this vague idea that the world has always been colonial, or tribal or something akin to that. Everywhere, all the time, until recently. And I've also wondered what things would have been like if not for the British Empire, etc. Thank you so much for this!
@Lynne J you’re more or less correct. Damn near every culture prior to the last couple centuries was firmly of the opinion that people that weren’t them weren’t really people.
@@Muljinn I also suspect that there is nowhere on earth were there isn't a dominant culture. Some cultures are more welcoming than others, and some places are more multicultural, but I think if you don't belong to the dominant culture, to some degree, you will feel like an outsider. I don't think it can be avoided.
Most of the world would still be eating dung for dinner.
Do you have a license for this common sense, Madam?
@@DieFlabbergast do you mean "licence" or are you American?
Douglas, your voice is needed in the regular podcast sphere. Please keep this up
Murray is a refreshing inspiration. Thank you.
If you examine the atrocities committed by various empires and countries over the past 300 or 400 years ,
Britain and the US would be tied for about 10th on the list .
However , in terms of creating human rights , democratic rights , labour rights , technology and social programs , *
and eventually exporting this all over the world , Britain would be ranked 1st .
Even Japans' 1947 Constitution , was created by the US , and based on Britain's Westminster system .
* Public schools , parks , transportation , national transportation and communication system , public police ,
sewers and sanitation etc .
.
But many say it was France, and Soviet communism that spread democracy.
“The idea of a blanket condemnation being untenable” - ooof!!! ❤ keep it up my lads
Wow. Fantastic discussion. Prof. Gilley's book is on the way, too. Can't wait to read it, and probably his newer one mentioned about German Colonialism.
I think our modern form of historical censorship is doing a lot of damage to our current political and social makeup. Since people nowadays don't seek to understand both the positives and negatives of different ideologies & the real world effects they've had it hurts our path forward. I think this channel is a lovely step in the right direction & I can't wait to see some more enlightening conversations.
Critically reasessing the multiple negative impacts of European colonialism on colonised peoples is not censorship! Wilfully destroying official records of torture as the British did as Kenya was about to gain independence, that's censorship. Banning books, films or curriculae focusing on groups previously under-represented in high school history lessons is censorship.
@davidmundowyahoo7839 What Im talking about when I say censorship is the unwillingness to teach anyone anything that can be seen as controversial. By doing that people losse the nuance of history and start generally thinking about complicated events.
@@1008chaz feel free to point out the positives of British colonialism in Ireland
@@davidmundowyahoo7839 they established a formal education system and built trinity collage dublin.
Something that needs to be remembered is that Sub Saharan Africa never had an industrial revolution and still dos'nt. Almost all technical development is imported.
Brilliant , thotough, Deep . No wonder It raises criticism: It shows the academic hipocrisy and ideology too well
Such gratifying pleasure listening & learning from 2 intelligent men discussing an era in history based on no-nonsense researched facts. Thank you!
Gilley is one really smart guy and here he shows that he's done the homework that not one woke latte-sipping "progressive" ever even considered doing on this issue. Kudos to him for sharing his knowledge and especially for his courage to stand up to the anything-but-inclusive inclusive crowd. Kudos also to Murray for conducting such a great interview, to say nothing of writing his wonderful books and articles. I'm now hooked on his Uncancelled History series. Many thanks Mr. Murray.
"woke latte-sipping"...?
@@adamlowe7618 Indeed. Scientific studies show that ALL progressives sip lattes. ha ha
@@adamlowe7618 yes
Wonderful discussion, thank you! I could have listened to this for so much longer than an hour.
Full of crap lol
My country was conquered by a brutal European power.They ruled us with an iron rod for centuries. But then their empire began to crumble. So they packed up and went back to Rome.
But don’t forget the wine.
I have read that certain tribes invited them in to stop being subjected by other tribes, and once part of the empire, willingly and rapidly adopted Roman customs.
@@petergarrone8242 There are always quislings. We have them now, inviting in our soon-to-be conquerors.
A pity they didn't take with them the Rule of Law, the potable piped water, the sewage system, the roads, the concept of nationhood, the written Law (it was much better when only a few wise people memorized it and poured out their wisdom upon request). We would have been so much better without any colonisers. Defecating in the bush is so much greener and ecological.
This was absolutely fascinating, Thank you Douglas and Thank you Prof Gilley
Great discussion. Feel quite proud of the old empire now. Not an exercise in perfection obviously, but an important step in the advancement of many ares of our world.
I am reading Bruce Gilley's book 'The Last Imperialist' and it is really good.
Very interresting that writing an article brings on an angry mob. Some topics are not safe. Who will dare to write about them? Bruce Gilley. I need to read his work.
Fantastic episode. Keep it up guys and always a pleasure to listen to Douglas.
I bet he notices how downtown Portland has become such a dump in very recent years, with so many transcients, pan handlers, tent dwellers, scary junkies and mentally challenged street people.
My wife no longer goes for a walk around the bus station, Union Station, Skidmore and other downtown places by the Willamette. It is still great to ride the Max and the Street Cars, if you do not mind the smell of weed.
Bruce is a brave guy holding these views with so many woke ideologies in the Oregon educational system. And he wears a tie, which is rare in Portland.
I was in Portland well back in the late 80s....purchasing a pair of boots the sales woman commented.... I love Canada, you can go out at night and feel safe. And now here we are..... In Edmonton Alberta 2023.... the encampments begin.
Colonialism brought along missionaries and churches as its by-products. They educated the indigenous people, and then they knew they could actually judge and challenge authorities. Using these Western values they were taught, many indigenous people began to criticise and oppose colonialism. I reckon people tend to forget about that, colonialisation in this way is actually positive.
@.Mar… They didn’t challenge authority. They were the authority,they were the rulers.
Oh you mean religious brainwashing and cultural genocide of the indigenous people.
> missionaries and churches
2000 yrs of crucifixions
No way bro argued they needed to be colonized to fight against colonialism
@@aaronsalau3367 they need to be educated and civilised to stop killing each other
British colonialism rescused many places from portuguese, spanish, french and muslim imperialism and in time stamped out the idea that slavery was acceptable.
For those who think no culture is superior to another just try to explain emigration.- especially the direction of it.
name one spanish viceroyalty the British rescued? I can name the worst off colonies and they all seem to be french/dutch/brittish and portuguese...
Florida, Texas, California, Philippines, New Orleans
@@Grace-ms7un
I can see you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling.
This video is awesome, thank you Douglas Murray. Prof. Gilley is brilliant.
I don't agree with all the arguments presented but I appreciate the conversation giving food for thought.
Thanks you so much for this! Such an enlightening and inspiring conversation.
Absolutely interesting episode. Keep them coming 👍 Much appreciated. 🙏