Explaining the Gwayne Hightower Dornishmen Joke to Criston Cole (House of the Dragon 203)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ก.ค. 2024
- Gwayne Hightower is either very calculated and funny or never received his geography lessons at the Citadel when he was growing up. Gwyane calls Criston a Dornishmen and I'm not sure if it was meant to be a funny joke or Gwayne is incompetent. Keep in mind too that the Houses of the Reach, as well as the Stormlands (Marcher Lords in particular) do not like the Dornish.
Was this a joke or incompetence from Gwayne? Let me know what you think in the comments. Please Subscribe for more House of the Dragon fun!
This scene is from House of the Dragon Season 2 episode 3, The Burning Mill.
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Still of Criston Cole, Alicent Hightower and Gwaye Hightower via HBO/MAX - บันเทิง
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I have no doubt about it being deliberate. Kinda like saying "sorry, I don't speak Mexican" to someone from Spain.
If I’m to lean one way, it’s that he’s being snarky and knows what he’s doing opposed to being dumb. As someone else pointed out, and I forgot this from season 1, Cole has dornish heritage (despite never talking about it on the show besides the couple times a Hightower mentions it). Seems like an unnecessary addition if they’re not going to meaningfully use it in the plot. Also there’s marcher lords from the Reach too. Not as many as Stormlands but there’s a few. Mainly House Tarly. So there’s disdain for the Dornish from the Reach lords too.
The thing is that mexican spanish is actually different from spain spanish.
@@hectorsanchez1377 I recall this from Spanish class in high school. Thank you for the clarity. Keep in mind I didn’t make that comment in the first place. I appreciate you watching.
@@hectorsanchez1377about as different as US english is to UK english.
@@hectorsanchez1377 Not that Big of a difference to matter. It's like British Vs American
He was intentionally throwing shade at Cole. Remember, Cole just replaced Otto as the Hand of the King.
He knows
The show runners messed up because they called Cole Dornish in episode 1
alicent literally says "gods, hes dornish" when cole first appears at the tourney in S1
@@badnoodlez Alicent also misunderstood Viserys and made Aegon king
Been looking for this comment
@@heavensresidences hard not to point it out despite what the show wants CC to be
Because she just saw him, she doesnt know him, by complexio he seems Dornish, but then we see actual dornish in kings landing tavern and they are wayyyy different
@@digge2210 well there are different types of dornish so that is not out of the ordinary for people with dornish ancestry to look differently from each other
It’s definitely implied that he is Dornish by blood and Westerosi by nationality. Alicent makes a point of showing this during his introduction, but the lack of a Spanish accent shows us he’s been in The Seven Kingdoms his whole life
@@bohunkmusic9473 yeah they don’t remark on it much. Geographically I could see him having ancestors that are stony dornishmen that resemble the rest of the realm due to geo proximity to the southern part of Stormlands, but his complexion a salty dornishmen like Oberyn, just no accent. Im not surprised by the no accent cause I take it Cole was in southern Stormlands his whole life opposed to the coast of Dorne. Thank you for watching!
@@MondayMorningMaester no problem! In any case I do think that Gwayne was going for a type of insult equivalent to calling a Romanian a Gypsy or a Scotsman a Brit.
@@bohunkmusic9473 Gwayne had no jokes for him in episode 4 😂 I think he was genuinely horrified by him. Things changed quickly.
@@MondayMorningMaester I love their dynamic so much hahaha
@@bohunkmusic9473 yep me too. Kind of brings something to hotd that we would see in thrones like Arya the hound, Brianne and Jaime, etc. two clashing personalities forced to work together.
Cole's ethnicity is Dornish. His nationality is not. His blood is of the Roynar. There are plenty of dornishmen living in Westeros that ally with the crown and not dorne itself
Where is this from? His ethnicity that is. Unless I’m forgetting something from the show, there’s nothing linking Criston to Dorne other than his daily struggles with them as a vassal to a marcher lord. Even his intro to Rhaenyra on the show when she selects him to Kingsguard is all about southern stormlands and Dondarrion. Thanks for watching.
@@MondayMorningMaester when criston cole defeats Daemon and is unmasked to gain Rhaenyra's favour, Alicent says "The gods, he's Dornish."
@@bentooreo9849 so she’s saying that based on the complexion of his skin not because she has some high level knowledge of his lineage. Seems like a reach to say he has Rhoynar blood. Guy could just have a nice tan being that close to Dorne.
@@MondayMorningMaester I think you're thinking too logically about it. It's exposition. The show wants him to be Dornish so people comment on it once in a while.
@@bentooreo9849 fair point. Kind of ruffles people’s feathers up before he even dons the white cloak. Certainly pisses off Otto and any other person from the reach/stormlands
Cole does have that signature stormlander temper
The show implies that he has Dornish ancestry despite this never being mentioned in Fire & Blood. However, since he lived near the Dornish mountains, you would logically think he would be descended from the Stony Dornishmen (Andal and First Men ancestry). Despite this, he instead looks like the Salty Dornishmen (coastal Dornish of Rhoynar descent).
@@derekclinton9438 completely agree with you. Stony means he wouldn’t stand out on the show though, and not be visibly dornish, therefore they make him salty/sandy.
The show runners called him Dornish in episode 1 and never cared about anything you just said😂😂😂 I doubt whatever convo they had with George included this attention to detail. Although they mention he was at Blackhaven in the Kingswood Episode but in Ep 1 they had Alicent call him Dornish
@@House_Green yeah George probably hates detail
@House_Green So because Alicent thinks he's Dornish based purely on looks means he must be? Characters in GRRM stories get things wrong all the time. The character in the book is clearly a Stormlander. The show has made multiple changes. It's simply a show creation for some reason, seems a little poorly conceived. It being a joke on Cole would actually be more of a fun Easter egg than him somehow being Dornish.
Dude was 100% trying to piss off Cole
I agree. Thank you for watching!
Im so down for the Gwayne and Criston bromance😂
@@KingSlayer_. I love how ep 3 Gwayne laughs at Cole and ep 4 Gwayne is legitimately in awe of how crazy he is 😆
Bromance? Pretty sure Gwayne thinks Cole is a complete psycho lol
Don’t you love it when fandoms overthink things to justify writers’ forgetting their own lore continuity? ☠️
@@BCrane-ej4iq lol yeah pretty much
Conjecture. Look it up
They mention it in Season 1 episode 1 when he's introduced at the tourney: Criston is part-Dornish ("has some Dornish blood in him," I believe they phrased it).
they made him Dornish in the show for whatever reason, I suppose it wouldn't be unheard of for ethnic Dornishmen to find themselves in the service of a Marcher lord, but it's a strange choice
I guess the people just opposite the Red Mountains would be Stony Dornishmen and have more of a First men/Andal background, and be more culturally similar to the Reach and Stormlands
@@enderman_666 yeah it just seems like a pointless show creation since they don’t do much with the change. And that’s a good point. Yronwood, Wyl, Fowler, Manwoody and Dayne would all resemble that. Those are the closest houses to the stormlands/reach border. Obviously that doesn’t mean a salty or sandy dornishmen wouldn’t be fighting in the boneway or princes pass, but it would be more likely a stony dornishmen. But I guess that wouldn’t be as exciting.
They made him Dornish for DEI purposes.
No. Because in the first season Alicent and Rhaenyra call him Dornish. So if anything the showrunners are just fucking dumb.
Yeah it was a dumb show creation. They don’t do anything with it.
Its literally in the book that Cole has Dornish blood, have you guys ever been to any border in real life? Ethnicities and nationalities blur at borders
@@yseson_ it’s not in the books that he has dornish blood. I don’t understand why there’s so many people on here that say just because he grew up in a border area that there is intermarriage between stormlanders and dornish. Anything you ever read about that region tells you how much they hate each other. There’s nothing ever said about reach and stormlanders that marry with dornish. They despise each other.
Ser Criston Cole may be a Marcher/Stormlander by nationality, but he is ethnically a Dornishman, I assume that’s why he’s played by a mixed actor (he’s I think half Indian?) but his father in the who don’t quote me on this is a Dornishman, and he’s the steward of Blackhaven, and a vassal of the Dondarrions, who was only recently raised up to such relatively high a position, it’s likely he just happened to be a Dornishman who either was born in the Stormland side of the Marches, or a Dornishman who emigrated to the Stormlands, fought for House Dondarrion, and was raised up for his service. So Criston is “Dornish” and can be insulted for it, just in the same way that an American with Irish grandparents is “Irish”, and could be made fun of for being a ginger or looking like a leprechaun.
@@user-cz8nh6jz9k this is a show creation so I think they had fun with how close Blackhaven is to Dorne and decided to make CC dornish to make him even more divisive when surrounded by powerful Reach folk like the Hightower’s. The thing is, they’ve mentioned it twice so far. Like why not let the Caron knight make a shady remark to CC when chosen over him for KG. Like “he’s not even a marcher, he’s dornish” etc… I can’t see the Dondarrions or anyone on that border taking in a dornishmen to their house. I can’t stress enough how much they hate each other. Like serious hate and distrust. Read Oakhearts’s chapters in Feast for Crows and you get a sense of if, and he’s on the far side of the Reach by Westerlands. Not even close to that border.
I appreciate you watching 🙏
He's Jewish, French and Italian.
@@lillielavelle9738wtf ? Why does he look so brown then
@@spardahellkin5814France and Italy are very sunny countries in the right places 😂
@@spardahellkin5814 Actor has persian and indian ancestry
I think it'd be very funny if Gwayne was witty. It'd also be a great chance to add personality to him since all we really know of him from the books is that he's the son of Otto Hightower and uncle to the King and served as Commander of the City Watch.
I think we got a good start with Gwayne. In general the show does a good job adding humanity to the characters we read about in Fire and Blood. And they need a lot since it’s a historical recollection, no pov’s, no inner monologue, etc. Aegon and Aemond have been great. Especially thinking of TGC performance as Aegon in a Son for a Son. Thought he had a lot of variety and range.
I personally think that the actor who portrays as Gwayne Hightower could've been a PERFECT young adult Aegon, Tom's killing it don't get me wrong but I just can't help but imagine 💯
@@thurstarca4995 yeah good call. He has the snark to him no doubt. TGC is doing a great job as you say. He showed a lot of range in a son for a son.
I think he's to old for aegon cause aegon is supposed to be 21 or something like that
@@poggerz6567 they learned their lesson from casting Robb and Jon to play 14 year olds lol. They looked like they were mid 20’s.
Gwayne Hightower is hot.
I don't know why, he's simply so alluring.
@@Δ-Δ-Δ-Δ Gwayne reluctantly following Criston’s lead is a storyline I’m following intently. Lot of fun when those two are on screen together.
No he’s throwing shade because Cole replaced his dad as hand, in all for hating Cole but the Hightower is being childish
@@PtownSoccer15 yeah no doubt. He has that Reach smugness about him.
if only there was some way for people living in Oldtown to have access to geographical knowledge
Haha I know right
On S1 when he was revealed; either Rhaenyra or Alicent, cant remember which, say "oh he's dornish" or something to that effect. So i guess it's more of a snark comment on his ancestry than his homecountry.
@@cataclysm7256 yeah you’re probably right
In one sense it was *just a joke*, either by Gwayne or against.
In another it was an intriguing comment on frontier societies, their hybrid culture, and the way outsiders perceive them.
I think he is Dornish and it will still end up being meaningful to his character, in time.
@@BelieveInUrself93 we’ll find out. Thank you for watching.
The third and actual explanation is that writers are confused and think Dornish Marches are part of Dorne, hence Criston is a dornishman (without a wife hehe). If it's not the case, then in universe everyone is a dumbass for thinking Cole is a dornishman ecer since the first episode.
Thank god Daemon Blackfyre's cronies weren't a thing during the Dance, they'd go crazy at seeing a dornishman made lord commander of the kingsguard
@@cheangizzz after further review and research, I think the writers wanted to make him more divisive and more of an outcast by making him have dornish blood despite being a stormlander. The sad thing is they were lazy about it and it’s only been brought up two times in two seasons, which makes me wonder why they did it in the first place. Lame show addition imo. lol about the wife 😉
In season 1 Cole was referred as a Dornish.
@@fobudomh Alicent the Wise has never been wrong
Those who are saying the show runners are dumb or made a mistake, and that the lore people responsible for catching such mistakes just missed it; I think don't know much or are forgetting the IRL history of the English Marches that GRRM based the Dornish March on in the first place. The Anglo-Welsh and Anglo-Scottish Marches were places of endemic conflict, feuding, raids, and counter-raids. You had English lords ruling Scottish lands and vice versa, same with the Welsh Marches. Having Criston Cole being a Stormlander, but with notable Dornish features/ancestry would be entirely appropriate for the Dornish March and its history. People forget just how muddy and convoluted the relations on the borders of Medieval England actually were. A lot of times which "nationality" you identified as, such a concept barely existing at that time, depended greatly on which side of the border you grew up and who your liege lord was, and what he identified as. Rahter than your actual ancestry and how much Celtic or Anglo-Norman blood you actually had flowing in your veins. While Braveheart gets a lot about the history of that period wrong, the comment that Scottish nobles were just as rich in English titles and lands as they were in Scottish has some basis in history. A prominent example is that the Tudor's claimed to be English, and became kings and queens of England, having some English ancestry, but were predominantly ethnically Welsh, as demonstrated by their red hair.
I get that my point would be if he is noticeably Dornish enough to run casually racist jokes about it (in universe) I feel like it’s relatively important to bring up as a plot point that’s a really interesting story he is ethically Dornish or mixed but living in the stormlands fight them I feel like at some point that’s Gotta be brought up like if that really is the case I’m more mad at the writers for not making that an interesting story and just using it as a fucking bit.
Agree with this completely. If they wanted to make that a show creation, fine, but actually make it meaningful opposed to bringing it up two times in 15 episodes.
Gwen is seriously underrated character.
@@kevinroark5815 he’s gotten better as the season has gone on too. His conversation with Alicent about Daeron in ep 6 was especially good.
It makes sense that Cole is Dornish by descent but raised on the other side of the border. This was often the situation in the Welsh Marches between the Medieval Welsh Kingdoms and England in the middle ages: there were Welsh people on both sides of the border with different political allegiances. The marcher lords themselves were Norman/English descended often with high amounts of Welsh blood, and they ruled over mixed populations - Welsh, English, Normans, Flemish etc. GRRM himself has said that Dorne takes much of its inspiration from Medieval Wales (in its history, laws, customs etc.) and the marches are clearly based on the marcher lordships of Medieval Britain.
@@Tlevids I appreciate everyone making the real life border comparisons but there’s nothing in any Martin text that supports Dornish and marcher lords from either Stormlands or Reach ever had a positive relationship with the Dornish. I seriously cannot recall it ever being mentioned.
I’m pretty sure it was gywane being racist and classist because Cole is actually half dornish in the show and extremely low born the sone of a Stuard of house dondarrian, plus the dornish fought the reach for many decades before the targaryians and even after aegons conquest the dornish aren’t a part of the seven kingdoms and they wage guerillia campaigns against the reach and storm lands often, so these two factors combine to make gwyane feel slighted by having to follow Cole and after this episode when Cole saves gwyanes life and leads a successful campaign in the crownlands against the blacks gwyane starts to respect Cole for his millitary mind
It’s honestly a very interesting moment that sums up cristions expirence as a kingsguard in kings landing being discriminated against for his low birth and ethnicity but warning the respect of high lords and ladies through this competence
Oh he was trying to piss him off. 100% XDXD
@@sunnytyler001 completely agree. Them cheeky men of the Reach 🤣
He even questioned Criston's knowledge of the Stormlands.
They’re a good contrast. I’ve enjoyed their scenes together.
Rhaenyra: You saw combat in the Stormlands.
Criston: Dornish marches, Princess. I fought for a year as a foot soldier against the Dornish incursions.
They're just being racist twats calling him Dornish because they know it will piss him off
I genuinely can’t tell, initially I thought he was just trying to annoy him, but in the finale he referred to him as Dornish again in a much more serious conversation.
So can’t tell if it’s:
1. Gwayne is a perpetual troll
2. The Hightowers are geographically brain dead, despite Oldtown being the center of learning in Westeros. Would also be very ironic because the reach has its own Dornish Marches and Marcher lords as well, most notably the Tarlys and GRRM’s favorite punching bag, the Peakes.
3. The show changed his origin to be Dornish, rather than Marcher.
Didn’t Alicent call him a dornishman in ep 1?
@@july9566 Yes she did. It’s funny how many people take Alicent at her word in this moment. She gets one glimpse of CC and knows his full lineage. I can’t imagine Alicent has been exposed to many dornishmen in her short life. It’s like she saw a picture book of the seven kingdoms and was ready to show off what she learned. Thank you for watching!
Rhaenyra or Alicent said in Episode 1 and the tourney that Cole was Dornish. Cole also spoke about Essos ships when he wanted to disappear with Rhaenyra, and I thought this was reminiscent of his origins. He fought Dornish invasions but in the show they made him Dornish it seems.
@@hugoyuugo1300 well they wouldn’t be able to stay in Westeros so naturally they’d need to go somewhere else like essos, for their safety probably further. It’s Alicent that shouts he’s dornish when he lifts his helm. Literally no one else. With the ton of dornish exposure she’s surely had in her life.
In the first season of Alicent says with excitement that Criston is Dornish.
Along the Dornish Marches in the Stormlands many Stormlanders have Dornish ancestry and the books say he had dornish features.
I dont know if youve ever been to a border Northern Italians look awful german with, Texans look very Mexican and Minnesotans look and sound very Canadian.
Thats how geography works
@@yseson_ where are you reading that reach and stormlanders have children with dornish and vice versa? The hate between the two is palpable. I’ve never read anything that gives this credit. I don’t care what real world borders you reference that isn’t the case between Stormlands and Dornish
The thing is... they say the same thing in season 1, that he is a Dornishmen... so I don't know if it's a joke or show-canon that he is indeed Dornish.
In episode of the show, I think either Rhaenyra or Alicent refer to Criston as "dornish" so I think it's just a call back
@@Al4___ yep. Alicent the wise knows all.
When he took his helmet off, didn’t Rhaenrya or Alicent say he was Dornish at that Knight competition, that day her mom died giving birth?
Yeah Alicent said it. Do we trust Alicent the Wise?
Remember during Criston Cole introduction he takes his helmet off and Alicent and Rheanra go "oh and he's Dornish" was that a writers error or what?
@@devanman7920 yep that’s the only time we get a dornish comment about him till Gwayne in s2. Someone else mentioned his character profile on hbo mentions he’s dornish and I went to check and it does indeed say that. Did it say that from the pilot? Not sure. Did they make a mistake and then have to own it? I doubt it. I would think they have asoiaf fact checkers to make sure they don’t make any blunders. Even though they just made another one in last weeks episode with the Darklyn family crest. It has seven white symbols on it to represent the 7 KG knights they’ve contributed. At least one of them takes place after the Dance. They either missed it or didn’t care. As for Cole, I think they wanted to make a show creation that made his character more divisive as Dorne is not under the iron throne rule during this timeframe. Way off actually.
replace "Dornishman" with "Mexican" and you will get it
I think Ser Gwayne was just being an asshole
@@laabitres yeah same here. Thanks for watching!
That did not end well for Joffrey in the first season.
It was stated in S1 that he is Dornish. The showrunners likely made this change because they wanted to find a way to include Dornish people to reel in more casual viewers because we know that this conflict doesn’t have much Dornish influence in it. It can also be explained easily, sure he hails from the Stormlands but he can still be ethnically Dornish.
@@TheRealNorth21 I think they wanted to make Cole even more divisive but they failed to elaborate on it. Therefore it’s a lazy addition to the show.
They mention point blank in season 1 Cole is ethnicity Dornish. How is it so difficult for people to just pay attention?
@@proudsaiyanprince2651 I hadn’t rewatched the season recently but realize that now. It’s pretty forgettable when they make it a lazy show creation that’s mentioned one time and not built upon until Ser Gwayne gallops into King’s Landing and is feeling cheeky.
I think Alicent was just speculating, but she's probably right.
@@wikipediaintellectual7088 yeah she usually is
@@MondayMorningMaester
I'm uh... Going to have to mull that one over
@@wikipediaintellectual7088 lol. She’s on a bad streak right now.
Remember all the books Hightowers have nearby? One might gain some skill
I think Alicent operated on picture books alone
More like “the show writers kinda forgot that Cole is from the Dornish March, not Dorne”
@@LordVelari whether it was an error or a lazy show creation, they haven’t done anything with it other than a line from Alicent and Gwayne, which makes me ask why even make the change in the first place? I’d wager they have a lot of stuff fact checked in terms of lore and find it hard to believe they or Grrm would miss that. Either or I’m not a fan of it
No. It was a racist insult.
Cole is from Dorne in the show, it's stated in the first episode. It was changed for some reason, maybe because the actor looks dornish? he doesn't look like the book.
It’s also Alicent that states and we know she doesn’t always come to the right conclusion 😂 though it seems like the writers thought this high level show creation was worth it, despite only mentioning it for the second time when Dwayne gets snarky.
Doesn’t Alicent call him Dornish when she first sees him at the tourney in the first episode?
@@YourGraceMyLady yeah she does. I find it funny how quickly she says it. Like she’s met a thousand dornishmen in her life. Alicent the Wise.
@@MondayMorningMaester 😂😫💀
Writers didn't knew that hahaha
@@antonmaoc3898 the thing that baffles me with all the comments is how many people think it’s normal for a marcher house to marry or have kids with dornish like that’s normal. Anything the text ever tells us is how much they hate each other. By no means is it ever discussed that it’s normal for the two regions to have romantic relationships. It’s wild what people believe based on one line from Alicent the Wise.
Its either a very clever joke or the writers wanting to show racial tension with the one non white looking group
@@aguspuig6615 yep that and Dorne still being independent adds some tension too
He's basically calling a Texan a "Mexican". Or calling a Greek a "Turk".
The show called him Dornish in episode 1
@@House_Green yes, by Alicent the Wise. She gets everything right.
I think the show can't decide on whether they want racism or not based on skin tone. Honestly making the Valeryons black has caused a lot of knock on effects for how they portray Westeros and its response to skin colour, Cole being the obvious example.
A more minor example are the accents. In Game of Thrones accent was sharply tied to where you came from, but not so much here; several actors retain their natural Scottish accents despite coming from regions that don't have such accents. Compare to Elden Ring, where you know a Welsh accent means a character is from Liurnia.
Maybe, but doesnt Dorne border The reach?
Several changes were obviously forced for purposes of “diversity, equity, and inclusion”… Cole being Dornish, Velaryons being black, etc.
More likely the showrunners didn’t know the difference between the dornish marches and Dorne proper.
@@Tulkash01 that or they wanted to make a smarty pants show creation without investing any real time in to it
@@MondayMorningMaester from what I’m hearing season 2 showrunners are not the kind of people who like devoting time to researching the original material…
@@Tulkash01 this season has been incredibly drawn out. More time spent with characters sitting in the same place and less time with characters on the move in more interesting areas. Two minutes at the golden tooth and nothing since. Rhaena in the Eyrie gets two minutes an episode. Overall the season has been fine and that’s about it.
In the first season he was introduced has a dornishman by alicent I think
@@romulus4690 yep you’re right. Alicent the Wise.
Thank you for watching!
Alicent said he’s Dornish in season 1 though
@@heavensresidences yes Alicent the Wise
It's passive aggression. He's mocking Cole but doing it ever-so politely, so he can deny he's being rude if challenged. If you ever get on the wrong side of a middle-class Englishman, this is what you'll get.
@@Sir_Gerald_Nosehairs. hahah I’d love to see it. Thank you for watching !
He’s Italian
He literally called an Irish guy british.
Cole looks Dornish
The show changed it a little bit theyre considering it dorne even if its sworn to the stormlands.
Bad look the show then
Dude, can we be real for a sec this is a case of the writers skimming through the source material reading Dornish marches and just assuming it was Dorne both of the two options you said are giving the writers too much credit
@@hudsonlewer7486 I hear you, I do, but the more I think about it I really do believe they just tried to make him more divisive without spending any more screen time on it. Like, let’s make Cole more different but not explain that Dorne is still independent so people from Reach and Stormlands may not like him from the jump. Thank you for watching !
No it wasn't, the show creators decided to show the "actual events and truth" of the dance of the dragons because the maester that wrote fire and blood wrote it like a century after the fact and was obviously unreliable. I can get behind this explanation and think it's an interesting concept that works for this show.
All that brain trauma Gwayne got from Daemon in Viserys's tourney probably affected his wits and restraint against upstart retainers such as Kingmaker Cole
@@shinsenshogun900 I’m surprised he got up from that! That was a nasty fall
That slam was plain prejudice against Dornish ancestry. What's interesting is that he is a privileged, highborn, from the ruling class and it says a lot about relations in the Reach. And more, about what he thought of Alice giving her favor to him.
@@JohnnyCatFitz the reach may be a little forgotten sometimes in the conflict against Dorne when you compare to Stormlands. Seems like there’s more marcher lords there. Some epic moments between Tyrell’s and Dorne during Daeron’s conquest. My beef is that if they make Cole Dornish can we add some value to the show? Why doesn’t Otto make remarks about it? He’s a prominent member of the reach.
@MondayMorningMaester Do you mean add to the knowledge and backstory of Dorne in general? Well, Cole has Dornish ancestry but isn't Dornish and he's not going to bring it up.
PlOtto isn't interested imo. His entire career has been laser focused on weaseling power. Away from prominent families of the Reach ( like the Tyrell's) and mostly gaining influence and positioning himself as he eventually did, to weasel into the Royal family. His daughter was His lifetime achievement ! He never tried to marry His son to Rhaeynera, never brought him to court because they don't see women as legit rulers/ or pliable enough for their ambitions.
Dorne means nothing in his long view. But I do wonder on just how lucky Cole got. Who added him? Is it all pre luck and desire to serve? Or was he planted as a choice that plOtto knew about vía young Alicent maybe making a comment or Otto heard of Cole asking her favor and hoped what happened would happen? There's a lot of scheming off camera !
Tbf there are lesser houses, similar to how there are Lord Paramounts, great houses, and vassal houses and then there are knighted houses.
No, Alicent very clearly says "He's Dornish" in the first season when he removes his helm. We don't actually know where Criston Cole comes from in the books, because he's lowborn anyways. The show decided to make him Dornish, so yes...Criston Cole is Dornish.
No. House Cole is a vassal of the Dondarrion’s of the marches. Meaning Stormlands. That is where he is from. The book is quite clear. The show takes liberties cause of how close they are to Dorne for shock effect cause Dorne are still independent during this time. It was a lazy show creation cause they don’t do anything to make it more meaningful other than mention it two times in two seasons. Also putting weight on anything teenage Alicent says is funny. She’s probably only ever seen dornish people in picture books from the citadel. She also commits the biggest fumble ever by thinking Viserys meant for Aegon to sit the throne when he was dying.
Because, in the show, Criston Cole IS ethnically Dornish, Doesn't mean he's from Dorne, doesn't mean he's loyal to the Martells, it just means he's got dark skin, black hair and brown eyes. Which he does, obviously. This is covered in the first season. Watch his intro scene again.
@@mattburns8839 Alicent the wise knows…
First to take the black 🖤
First to take black aly’s arrow rather than
I don't think there was a House Cole. Lol. Cole maybe from Stormlands, but he was just a son of a steward who keeps rising in rank due to proximity with royals.
@@hafsahassan394 on the ice and fire wiki it shows the house sigil for Cole and what it derives from. Grrm even comments on it. Seems like Criston is the only Cole that’s given a name in the history of the house.
Probably bad writing which isn’t anything new for this series. However, he seems to be one of the wittier characters on the show so I’d slide with comedic genius.
I like what we’ve seen from Gwayne. Freddie Fox was a good casting for the role. He has good range. We’ve seen better from him since his intro. Despite being snarky, he has an endearing side to him. Thank you for watching.
The marches are a frontier zone. No surprise that people both sides tend to look closer thanks to countless intermarriages. Cole by skin alone shows to have a heavy dornish ancestry, despite being born on the other side of the frontier
@@TheUrobolos frontier to stony dornishmen. Doesn’t explain the salty/sandy dornishmen complexion. That’s the show going for shock value.
@@MondayMorningMaester I doubt the television show canon lore of westeros (split from the books according to Martin himself) has such divisions among the dornish. Every single character show from Dorne in both shows are clearly of the Salt subgroup.
Just like in the shows canon Targaryens and Velaryons are apparently the last individuals in the world with silver hair, while in the books canon you can still find quite few of them in Essos
@@TheUrobolos yeah I agree. They’re not going to take the time to explain why Arthur dayne looks like he could be an Arryn
I think it could have been a genuine overside by the writers 😅 Someone was like „yeah he’s from the Dornish Something, so he‘s gotta be dornish“
Gwayne would have certainly known about the geography and such, as a highborn lad by one of the most rich powerful and educated houses of westeros. He would know the difference betwe Spain and Mexico, so yeah I think the writers did an oopsie to get a point across they wanted to make
@@wasistdustin I think the writers knew what they were doing. They wanted to add a level of divisiveness to CC because Dorne is not yet under the tutelage of the Iron Throne and that may cause people from the Reach and Stormlands to have another negative disposition towards him on top of his humble birth station. So not only is he not a noble, but he also has Dornish blood in him so it’s like a double whammy. Either or it ended up being a lazy show creation cause they did nothing to build on it. Mentioned two times in two seasons.
It pains me to see how uneducated people talk about nationality and ethnicity in the comments.
Great jape
What's genius here? It's like how some people are calling any Slavs Russian, including Ukrainians. Either deliberately trying to offend someone or being ignorant.
The Dornish Marches, i think the idea that westeros doesnt have cultural mixing as you get closer to kingdoms borders is not really all that farfecthed. What would stop a peasant in Wyl who worked a farm who lost his work to work on a farm in Blackhaven? This isn't a modern society with visas and border entries
@@ZiggyBones it’s never referenced that stormlanders or reach mingle with dornish. Like if this happened in the text it would be kept quiet and never discussed because how much hatred is between the two.
@@MondayMorningMaester there's definitely some historical animosity between houses of the marchers which could apply to lower born folk, but still not certain on that
@@ZiggyBones some animosity is putting it lightly. I appreciate you watching and commenting. Looking forward to the finale tonight.
@@MondayMorningMaester we don't bring up vorian dayne and the tarly dinner table
Making Cole Dornish was STUPID!!!
Dorne defied Targaryen rule until almost a hundred years after the Dance. Until the reign of Daeron II.
A Dornishman joining the Kingsguard then becoming Lord Commander, then Lord Hand is just ridiculous.
Especially with a Reach lord like the Hightowers in charge. The Dornish raids did massive damage to The Reach. They would have assassinated him ASAP.
@@MrReded69 I completely agree. I think it’s a dumb addition for shock factor. Especially when you see Cole say nothing about it. When he gives his resume to young Rhaenyra he talks about stopping Dornish incursions and being knighted by a Dondarrion knight. He cares nothing about this and the show doesn’t do anything to add value to it. It’s a lazy tv creation.
People are more complex than their nations' history tho
He is a Westerosi but obviously of Dornish ancestry. Seems like a long standing prejudice. He's not a Dornishman.
It's make-believe dude😮😮
@@sonicshadow5788 oh damn
It's like calling a Spanish guy, a moor or sarrasin. They are basically Arabs but they like to be called western Europeans 😅
It’s like how we call every Asian Chinese or every Hispanic Mexican even though they hate each other 😂 absolute ignorant disrespect
@@godemperorletoatreidesii6971 I can’t imagine how the stony dornishmen feel
Sorry, but that is it more ignorant. Hispanic people don’t hate each other. Historically, Latin America has had very few wars between countries. Y siempre decimos que somos hermanos! Sin dudar tenemos diferencias pero eso es otra cosa muy diferente.
looool
He’s suggested in the show to have some Dornish ancestry, likely a nod to Fabian Frankel having middle eastern and south Asian ancestry.
But that’s likely something the Coles would be even more sensitive about given their regional animosity and role in conflict with Dorne (Cole was introduced as having actual combat experience against the Dornish that the other potential Kingsguard recruits lacked as only being tourney victors).
@@glamourweaver that’s no doubt what the show was going for I’m just disappointed they didn’t build on it
Very simple. The showrunners don’t understand what Marches are. So when they heard he is from the Dornish Marches. They thought that was part of Dorne.
@@Rex73777 to the old gods and the new, I hope that’s not the case. Can’t see GRRM letting them get away with that ignorance. Condal seems to know his stuff so I think they just want to make a reference to his complexion, which I think is unnecessary.
100% an insult, he's salty about Otto being ousted
@@chstens yep no doubt. I really like what we’ve seen from Gwayne since in the amount of time he’s been given. He’s shown some range. Not just a snarky nobleman from the Reach. Thank you for watching!
Criston is dornish go watch the show pay attention I would suggest
@@dawsonlucas369 why would anyone believe Alicent the Wise?
It's no genius comedy, just racism.
To call a dornishmen dornish?
@@MondayMorningMaester You said yourself that he isn't a Dornishman.
@@Ambar42 are you saying that Gwayne doesn’t think Cole is dornish but is calling him it anyway cause of his complexion? Just making sure I understand
@@MondayMorningMaester Yes, basically, or rather that he doesn't distinguish between Dornishmen and people from the Dornish Marches and he shows off that ignorance. It's all the same to him. It's like when people call Iranians Arabian although they know better and although they are different cultures and even opposed to each other, just to disrespect them.
@@Ambar42 gotcha thanks
He was intentionally throwing shade at Cole. Remember, Cole just replaced Otto as the Hand of the King.
@@scififantasygirl yeah no doubt. I just find it odd that Gwayne looks at Cole as a dornishmen opposed to a stormlander
@@MondayMorningMaester Gwayne, very likely a snob, resents that a LOWBORN (Show still makes Cole a DORNISHMAN) man that's now his boss
@@kenroycherrington148 yeah no doubt. Gwayne grew up differently than CC did 😂