The thing about Eurylocus is that he has every right to mutiny. But the thing that ticks me off about him is that he doesn't follow through. As soon as shit hit the fan he goes, "Captain?" And I'm like naw babe, you mutinied. He ain't the captain anymore, you are! "You want all the power, you must carry all the blame!"
YES!!! I've been saying this exact thing for ages! I totally get the mutiny, b/c even if the sacrifice was necessary, Ody should've talked to the crew first and maybe had them draw "straws" or smth if nobody volunteered to be a distraction. I even get risking death by the gods over starvation! But you can't just go "Captain? 🥺" and expect the man you stabbed and tied up to save you from your own choices!! *flips a table*
The poor fella is caught between viewing Odyseuss as their king, the ship's captain, and a brother in law throughout everything. He's so used to following orders, he prob never understood the true toll there is to being in a leading role like that. It feels human for him to revert to what he's used to.
Right? and he's all "how dare you sacrifice six friends to get home" as if he didn't 'sacrifice' nearly all 600 men to open a 'treasure' they already possessed?!
"I can't understand why they're doing this" In the og myth, the men were trapped on the sun god's island and starving, until Eurylichus told them that they'd get a win win. Either they live and build a temple to helios back home or else are granted a quicker demise than slowly wasting away. It's also why Ody kept saying "we can get home" but Eury gave up and so did his men
To be more specific, dying of starvation/dehydration was apparently one of the least honorable ways to die in Ancient Greek culture, spending any more time on the sea and risking members of the crew starving/thirsting was basically the worst thing they could think of, yes even worse than dying in any of the other ways presented to us throughout the musical
@@casuallectures2655 I mean, if my only options were "starve to death" and "get smited quickly", I'd probably say fuck it, we're going down in a kaboom - dying of starvation sounds absolutely horrifying! The pain and nausea of not eating, getting weaker and weaker, head dizzy, eyes blurring, and it might take weeks to MONTHS to actually die, if you still have water to drink D:
Jorge actually explained that he wanted to establish Zeus' character by not even have him address Odysseus and his crew until later in the song and just talks about himself. Also, idk if you noticed: "Thunder bringer" "Thunder bring-her" "Lightning weilder" "Lightning weild-her" Basically more lines that establish Zeus' character by refering to Pride as a Women that he alone can have. In simpler terms, Zeus thinks he is the only person who can have pride/arrogance/hubris but odysseus was the one who was having it and Zeus rips that pride away from him
Its important to note that at this point EPIC the musical has departed pretty severely from the source material. Most importantly Zeus did not force any kind of Choice on Odysseus he simply blew up the ship killing everyone except Odysseus(who survived because he was still under the divine protection of Athena) Also In the original.. Odysseus did choose to enter the lair of Scylla knowing it would cost 6 men's lives.. but they basically yolo'd it. On the island of cows Odysseus opposed them landing on the island at all.. but after they landed Poseiden's storm kept them stuck on the island for over a month.. over a month of starvation is what finally led his men to kill the divine cattle and summon the wrath of the gods
Yeah I feel like people really don’t understand how horrible Starvation is, ofc it’ll drive you to do something like killing a sacred cow if it means eating.
So a bit of a correction, in the original there is no “lair of Scylla” - Odysseus was sailing between Scylla and Charybdis but they got to close to Scylla so she attacked the ship, seeing an opening, Odysseus just booked it but he didn’t intentionally sacrifice people in the book.
@@owenbridgers On the other hand, in the original story (if I remember it correctly), they were also specifically told by the prophet that they would make it home fine as long as they refrained from eating said cows. On a semi-related note, I have a big problem with No Longer You, Suffering and Different Beast because of this departure. Suffering and Different Beast feel pointless as songs (and do not make much sense anyway for various reasons) because the relevant information should have been told in No Longer You. Since it was not, No Longer You contributed absolutely none of the information it should have, and they felt the need to include Suffering and Different Beast to fill that gap and bridge to Scylla, when Scylla would have worked fine as the start of the saga, which would have let them split Mutiny into one song about the betrayal (since they wanted that change), and one song about the privation that led to the stupid decision.
@@tiredtortoise3396 Yeah my least favorite song in EPIC is in the most recent saga because "six hundred strike" breaks the continuity not just of EPIC but of all greek mythology. (A mortal should simply not be capable of fighting or damaging a god, thats a modern concept that is nonexistent in greek myths). But Suffering and Different Beasts are strong runners up for my least favorites after that one and your perspective is interesting on how it could be done better
@tiredtortoise3396 The first two songs of this saga made sense in terms of showing that Odysseus really has become a monster and is willing to do anything to get home. Of course, we saw this in the song "Scylla", but it seems to me that the transition would have been too abrupt if it had all started with it. And as you already said, these songs were necessary because he had not learned about Scylla from the prophet earlier. Everyone is free to relate to this as they want, but still I like that the prophet here is not some kind of wise advisor, he literally just told him how he sees his future, which led to Odysseus' doubts about his decisions. If he had simply told him in this song that you must go through Scylla by sacrificing your people (which, by the way, in the original was advised by Circe, not the prophet), then the story would have developed in a completely different direction. The song "monster" as a conclusion to the first saga is good precisely because Odysseus makes this decision himself. If he was told that this was the only way, it wouldn't feel like Odysseus's true decision. It would feel like the baby he dropped in the first saga. We wouldn't get any character development in my opinion
For those who don't know, each character is assigned an instrument. Odysseus is the guitar, Penelope is the viola, and so on and so forth. But Eurylochus... his instrument is uniquely, the Crew. This is why he was the most hurt by what Odysseus did. He lives for his crew, his brothers.
It becomes one of those ticking time bombs. The viewer knows but the MC doesn't. As someone who already knew Eurylochus opened the bag due to reading the book I assumed the animatics got some word from Jorge that it was getting changed as it only takes a quick google to find out who actually opened the bag. I think the reveal of Eurylochus having opened the bag could of been done better with the knowledge. I more visceral reaction rather than a narrator describing the scene.
You're the first reactor I've seen that forgot what was said in Suffering but still interpreted the torch situation properly. It's unbelievable the amount of people who just think Odysseus was sacrificing them willy nilly. Scylla was shown to have heat based vision in Gigi's animatic, so yeah, the torches were bait, and it was the only way to get pass Poseidon. Scylla has 6 heads, so 6 torches = 6 men. Also, yeeeah, he did try to kill Eurylochus cuz he was supposed to be holding a torch too but he let it fall and someone else took it I always argue that Odysseus wasn't 100% in the wrong in Mutiny because the other option would destroy the entire ship, at least sacrificing 6 men meant the other 30 something would still be alive. It's the trolley problem. But he didn't tell the crew where they were going and what he was going to do, so he was wrong there. You can't even be too mad at Eurylochus cuz you'd be doubting Odysseus too The thing people forget after a while is that Odysseus literally said in the first song of the entire musical he'd trade the world to see his wife and son. You can't be too mad at him for doing exactly that when push comes to shove, he told us, and Zeus knew it too. I'd recommend seeing the next three songs in one video (Legendary x Little Wolf x We'll Be Fine) because they're direct continuations of each other, and then Love in Paradise x God Games in another
I feel like Eurylochus has no right to judge Odysseus for sacrificing a mere 6 men when he got 550 of them killed when he opened the wind bag after being warned, he was told what was going to happen if he opened the bag and still went behind Odysseus back, like you cannot be complaining about a mere 6 deaths when you're responsible for 550 yourself, this isn't even payback in comparison
@Nulnhility but to be fair fair, he didn't know they would die if he opened the bag, while Ody totally knew 6 of the men would die, and deliberately gave them the torchs
@@thatsroughbuddy_ He did know it was risking death though. Remember in Storm he's the one who said "At this rate we won't make it out alive" He knew the storm was deadly, and was told opening the bag would release it. Even if he couldn't predict Poseidon getting involved, he knew that if Odysseus was telling the truth he was risking drowning the whole fleet.
I believe in the original story, Eurylochus weighs the options of a slow death by starvation on the sea with false hope that they ever reach home or a 50/50 gamble between getting to eat these cows or getting instantly smited by the gods here and now... and chooses the 50/50 gamble, because a quick death would be easier than what Odysseus is asking him to endure
He says that if given the chance, he'll offer to raise a temple to Helios as repayment. But yeah, he pretty much knows it's essentially suicide, but thinks it's a better death
Eurylochus' quote in the Odyssey goes like this: "Listen to me, my comrades, brothers in hardship. All ways of dying are hateful to us poor mortals, true, but to die of hunger, starve to death-that’s the worst of all. So up with you now, let’s drive off the pick of Helios’ sleek herds, slaughter them to the gods who rule the skies up there. If we ever make it home to Ithaca, native ground, erect at once a glorious temple to the Sungod, line the walls with hoards of dazzling gifts! But if the Sun, inflamed for his longhorn cattle, means to wreck our ship and the other gods pitch in-I’d rather die at sea, with one deep gulp of death, than die by inches on this desolate island here!"
@@GOTGames Yeah, because it was either passing close enough for Scylla to snag six men, or sail close enough for Charybdis to suck in the entire ship and kill them all.
Fun fact about Scylla shes blind but the way she can see is when only when there's light source so that's why Odysseus said light up 6 torch is because literally she can literally see six of the torches Odysseus had to sacrifice his 6 of his men because if they didn't they would have died there also with the music you can literally hear 6 of the man screaming because their dying by Scylla 😭
Actually she’s not blind. That is more of Gigi’s interpretation. Normally Scylla is watching for ships that get too close to attack. Although in Epic I’m wondering if Scylla and Charybdis are not as close to each other as they usually are
Well I mean, they didn't depict Eurylochus opening the bag because for one, they didn't know. All animatics, aside from the official livestreams, are fan-made. And secondly, even if they did know that, it would ruin the shock of it wouldn't it?
Just to add that Thunderbringer actually happens in the ocean while they are in the ship, and it ends with Odyseus falling into the ocean and you will see in the next saga what happens to him. I love Neal Illustrator's animatic for it, but just to know where the actual setting happens will help understand what happens next
In suffering when “Penelope” says to go through the lair of Scylla, ody says “but Scylla has a cost”. Ody knew what that cost were: the lives of six men - because Scylla has six heads, it’s a man per head basically. If he hadn’t done that, they all would’ve died. In the original animatic, eury also picks up a torch but drops it at some point, trying to save the men. So it’s probable that ody tried to get eury to be one of those six Also the sun god in question is called Helios. He has pet cows. It’s adorable Eury really picked the wrong time to be a dumbass and stop listening to his captain I just love your distaste for his men. It’s so funny and every time you say “an army of dodo birds” I cry a little of laughter😂😂😂 Neal illustrator continues to depict Zeus as the creepy horny teenager he is and I both love it and hate it (I keep adding to this but I have THOUGHTS) I’ve never seen anyone talking about it but can we talk about when Zeus is holding the lightning betwixt his hands, it’s (once again) shaped like a woman? Honestly the fact that he hasn’t tried mating with his lightning yet is a wonder😂😂
How exactly would everyone die? There's no proof of that. Doesn't happen in the original. Ody doesn't kill six of his crew to escape. Scylla just takes the six she can eat
@@sarahhandberg5185 Yeah, the cost is six people and that's it. the torches were lit up so that Ody wouldn't be picked off. That's why Scylla says, "We are the same, you and I." and Odysseus even joins in.
I really love how Zeus straight up tells him that it's pride that has led to this. First off, the gods are fickle and within all the virtue he has, there's pride. It was his pride by not heeding Athena's (a goddess) warning to kill the cyclops, then revealing his name, saying "remember me," like a challenge that Poseidon took because the insult of doing that to one of his. That just jump-started everything.
You basically got it, if the 6 torches weren't lit, all the men would die. Or at least majority of them. So odysseus chose to sack off 6 men so the rest could get through. If you think about it, it sort of parallels Eury on Circe's island when he wanted to leave the rest of the men and cut their loses. Eury thought the men were as good as dead(They basically were and would've been without Hermes help) and there was no way to get them back so he thought they should "Cut their loses" and leave. Odysseus knew there was no other way to get home other than through Scylla so he chose to "cut their loses" and sack off 6 men(he probably hoped Eury would be one of them since he didn't directly tell Eury to hand out the torches) so the rest of them could escape. Edit: In fact, I'm willing to bet odysseus thought just like the crew thought when he found out Eury opened the bag. 'There's no guarantee that Eury wouldn't betray me again so it's better if he dies here.'
This isn't true. The six torches were just Jorge's flair, a way to easier understand how many people would get claimed, and not something that happened in the Odyssey. Ships that sail through Scylla's lair will always lose six men, one for each head, and has nothing to do with willing sacrifice. They chose to sail closer to Scylla, which would only cost six lives, than Charybdis, which would destroy the entire ship, and cost all their lives. "Between a rock and a hard place" indeed.
@@sleepyalexa Oh that's new, did Jorge say this in a short/tiktok whether this detail carried through to EPIC? No? Ody sailed near Scylla because the siren told him Scylla was the only way to get home and not get attacked by poseidon in different beast. There was no mention of Charybdis until the actual song. And Ody still met Charybdis
@@ThePr1nceOfNothing Jorge didn't write The Odyssey :) Plenty is left unsaid in a short musical, and trying to sum up all the mythology into it is impossible. That's why I corrected you, since you made a claim that isn't true. Whether the Musical "canon" says torches must be lit or everyone would die isn't confirmed nor denied, so I'll just stick to the original mythology, and presume Jorge wanted to add some flair and clarity as to what happened with Scylla, and how many men were lost.
@sleepyalexa yeah but Jorge wrote EPIC, and made quite a few creative liberties in order to get the message he wished to deliver across even if it deviated from the original work. I just stated how it was in the musical. I understand what you mean, but I'll just have to agree to disagree
@@ThePr1nceOfNothing Scylla's lair is next to Charybdis. The only way past is to go between them, and Odysseus chose to go nearer her than the assured destruction of his remaining ship via whirlpool. The location of these things aren't explicitly stated in the Musical, but we know where they exist through mythology. Assuming they're somewhere else in Musical "canon", when Jorge hasn't said so, is a bit silly, and it only makes sense to rely on the "facts" of the original mythology, as with Scylla.
In a sense, you can still understand their reaction. The crew gave up on the idea of going home. It’s been two years, twelve if you count the war. They faced monsters, they are lost at sea when the god of tides is after them… up until now, Odysseus was protecting them. But then they realized they were expandable, plus the hunger and the exhaustion. They lost faith. What’s the point of fighting in this conditions knowing they’ll never make it home ? That’s the question Eury asked Ody, and he is the voice of the crew. When they lost their faith in their captain they lost their will to keep trying. But then again, the mutiny was their choice, they put the load of becoming a monster on Odysseus shoulder alone but did not follow through when he did what was necessary to save the whole crew. It pains me for Ody to have to take on the blame of that choice, but they called for it.
A VERY interesting take on 23:14, something I forever will applaud NealIllustrator for, Penelope is coloured yellow because she’s a vision that Zeus shows to Odysseus. In Horse and an Infant, Zeus showed him a vision of the future so we KNOW he can do that. Throughout the whole animatic for Thunder Bringer, yellow is closely related to Zeus. His eyes, his POWER! The decision to make Penelope YELLOW TOO?? NealIllustrator’s interpretation of it definitely indicates that Penelope is a vision shown by Zeus to further develop the plot ‘cause Gods do mostly see human misery as entertainment. What better way to extend said entertainment by making Ody choose to live and add on to the amount of men he’s lost in this journey. 26:28 As for you saying that “I thought that his child would be his main focus”, something many of us have noticed is that the only one who talks about Telemachus being a motivation so far is Odysseus himself. The Gods reference only Penelope. 😢
This reaction did not disappoint! Recommended order for next saga: 1, 2, and 3 then 4 & 5 (5 can be another Neil Illustrator animatic!) And to avoid confusion I see in other reactor channels, in case it is AT ALL UNCLEAR: the singer in the first song of the next Saga is NOT Odysseus. I think you'd have caught that but it makes it super confusing if it is missed and it kinda ruins the reaction. Keep it up, can't wait for the next.
I love, love, love that you empathize with the crew over ody! Hes the protag, so most people ive seen immediately side with him but like, Ody blindly following the lotus eaters to a cyclops, letting it live, etc. Set up his crew to doubt choices, then a dog plays a little trick on him by essentially setting a trap in the form of "its treasure", which only sets off another issue when Ody doesnt apologize but tries to outwit Posideon, etc. Of course the crew would get upset, everything else was on accident until Scylla. Ody left his crew in a position to be starving, killed on purpose, and desperate enough that theyd rather die by smiting than starvation. Like, Ody can have all of his just a man moments he wants and its fine, but god forbid someone else quotes him verbatim and suddenly its a bad thing.
i get that, i understand both sides its a story without hero's just people doing what they can to survive , but to be fair to Ody, polities his best friend was really pushing for them to trust the lotus eaters, plus like Eurylochus he was desperate for food and took his chances with the random cave. he didn't really give them a reason to doubt, it was his quick thinking with lotus wine that ultimately allowed them to win and escape, up until the cyclops surprised them with the club, Odys orders and commands were working, he told them straight up don't open this bag if you want to get home, and only Eurylochus seemed to not listen. When it comes to Poseidon yes he didn't actually say that hes sorry, he should of, but he also specifically told the truth and didn't lie to a god, plus 'Ruthless is Mercy' Poseidon wasn't gonna except any apology anyway (not that ody knew that). but the rest of it fully agree on, he sacrificed them with scyla, the mutiny was justified. and ye the crew made a mistake out of desperation and its not like ody blamed them for it hes done it himself, he just tried to stop them. But yes its not a story were you should always support the protags choices
also just wanna add, im not defending ody or bashing the crew just adding counter points and reasonings, everyone in this story made mistakes and were right at times with their own justifications, and you cant really fully side with either.
In the Odyssey, Eurylochus knows that killing the cows is basically suicide. He gives a big speech about how, if given the chance, they'll build a temple to the Sun God in Ithica as an apology. But knows that there's a very good chance they won't get that opportunity and just thinks that dying from a God smiting them must be quicker and easier than slowly dying over the course of week due to starvation and watching the rest of his crew dying around him
Myth fact here : When the crew arrived on Helios island they were starving, in the original they knew to not hurt the cow but they couldn't get away from the island (thanks Zeus, if I remember correctly), then they were so much hungry and tired they decided to kill the cows. Remember it was years since they didn't returned home. To be fair for the crew there are no good choices here.
As bearer of Source Material Trauma, I am here once gain. Scylla was originally next to another monster (we will see them later, it got moved in the translation to Epic), and the choice was "Let everyone die to Monster 1, or only 6 of us die to Scylla". also to answer your question, if they didn't light up torches, Scylla would just start smashing the ship until she managed to catch 6 people, but by that time, the ship would not exactly be in sailing shape anymore. On the Isle of Helios (where the cows are) Eurylocus gave up on living. He knew what would happen if they killed the cows, but basically said "We will build atemple here in Helios' honor, and if he is still pissed, then at least we die quicky and with full stomachs instead of slowly starving to death. Either way, we arent making it home." The crew has given up at this point and are essentially choosing to die on their feet instead of withering away. This is actually not the first time we have met Zeus in Epic. The first time was in the very first song, The horse and the Infant. Zeus was the one who told Odysseus to kills the child. Now he is back, and forcing another choice onto Odysseus. What a bellend. Neal's animatic is amazing, but doesn't really tie into mutiny or the next saga well. Cannonically, they were on the boat when Zeus shows up. That detail is important for setting up the next saga.
I'm so glad you picked up on the fact that Scylla is targeting the men with the torches. A lot of people seem to miss that detail. Edit: As for why *six* torches... Scylla has six heads.
When the sirens told him the lair of Scylla was the only way home he said "but Scylla has a cost", he knew but even in Mutiny when he yells "I can't" he cost him just as much morally as it did in men
What a saga this was, huh? 🤣 Fact, and animatic time! -The guy that stabbed Odysseus is Perimedes. In the original draft of Epic he and another character had larger parts to play. -Scylla was one of Circe’s nymphs, but she cursed her because a man Circe loved cared for Scylla instead. You can hear part of Circe’s instruments during Scylla’s song as a nod to that. -During Mutiny, Odysseus’ battle instrument, the electric guitar, and Eurylochus’ instrument, the crew, are musically battling, just like how Odysseus and Eurylochus are. •So, animatic recommendations, and *an important note* . People will ask for Neal Illustrator’s God Games, but it’s _very hard_ on people with photo sensitivity. You can always check it out later, but it’s up to you. For all of the songs, I really like the livestream’s versions, but if you want to stick with fan ones, these are what I’d recommend: Legendary- DuvetBox Little Wolf- DuvetBox We’ll Be Fine- SincerelyMaxx Love in Paradise- DuvetBox or Mikuchis God Games- AnniFlama, or Noir.Hyacinth Also, The Wisdom Saga takes place 7 years after Thunder Bringer. The first song is from his son’s POV.
The way I see it, Eury killing the cow wasn't so much as just a "stupid decision" but more so a desperate one. It wasn't a good idea by any means but you also gotta keep in mind that starvation is no joke. It can drive people to make extreme and desperate decisions
In the original poems they were there for months trapped by a storm. He decided a quick death by god would be better than slow death by starvation so they sacrificed and ate the cows hoping for the best.
Wrong. Eury easily could have chosen to pass off his own. Ody had no way of knowing in that moment, and likely didn't care either cuz... Well, he couldn't afford to.
@somedudewatchintv5297 Eury was going through the guilt death spiral from hell in that whole scene. It wouldn't be surprising if he passed off the torch because he didn't wanna risk upsetting his friend by somehow fuckin' up again
All I have to say is... Eurylychos chose the wrong saga to be plain stupid. From admitting that he opened the wind bag to mutiny to killing that darn cow. The dude was on a roll. Also yes, all of them would have died if he didn't sacrifice 6 men
Only six of them would’ve died either way, but if he didn’t sacrifice a specific six then there was a chance Odysseus himself might be one of those who died and he wasn’t willing to take that chance
His whole crew was starving to death. They figured satiating their hunger and then appeasing to whatever god came after them would be a better end than starvation.
@@jibjibs9401 that’s very true but I think the importance of the scene to the story was less Odysseus’s concern for the ship and more his concern for his own chances of reuniting with Penelope
The crew talks a big game about broken trust but they broke trust first. Eurylochus opened the bag. Ignoring Poseidon being an issue, it was Eurylochus' greed and distrust in Odysseus, unwarrented distrust, that led to the wind bag opening - the crew responsible for allowing it to happen. "If you want all the power, you must carry all the blame." Its no wonder Odysseus had Eurylochus choose who would die, unknowingly at the very least. He took the crews fate into his hands by opening the bag. He can choose the crews fate once more. Also Thunder Bringer happens on the ship not on the island canonically. And it's Zeus. Gotta add, too, if anyone should take responsibility, its his crew. They had mutinied against him. He wasnt in charge when they slaughtered the cow. And this is what happened in the Odyssey - Zeus didn't give Odysseus a choice, he just killed the crew but spared Odysseus because he wasnt respondible. Im also not sure what version of legendary you're going to watch but be careful, theres an important piece lf lore that some animatics dont include that contextualise the entire next saga, so be careful. Duvetbox's includes it, so if youre watching theirs (and i hope you do) it should give you everything you need to know in animatic and in the closed captions.
Eurylochus was distrustful of the wind god and Odysseus, he wasn’t greedy. He wanted to know what was in the bag, as did the rest of the crew. They were hesitant about involving the wind god but Odysseus had already made up his mind and so they were anxious to see what happened when he returned with a bag. Remember the wind god sent the winions down to spread a rumour that the bag held treasure and when the crew asked Odysseus he brushed them off and then refused to interact with anyone for nine days and nights while clutching the bag tight. If you were a member of the crew wouldn’t you also grow curious? To the crew Odysseus seemed like a man possessed. The wind god wanted the crew to open the bag from the start, it was all a game for him. Odysseus was being cruel when he made Eurylochus choose people to hold the torches. He wanted to make his second in command suffer and die to Scylla. Eurylochus made a mistake that got most of the men killed. He regretted his choice and has been trying to confess since the moment they arrived on Circe’s island as the guilt was slowly killing him. Odysseus on the other hand would’ve never admitted the truth to the crew after Scylla if Eurylochus had been eaten by her. He wouldn’t care as long as he made it home. By this point all the crew was to Odysseus were tools for him to use and dispose of to achieve his goal.
Odysseus didn't brush his crew off. He told them what was in the bag, what was at stake, but Eurylochus didn't trust him enough. One bad encounter soured his entire mood on Odysseus, and, for that, 557 men died. And, no. Aeolus didn't necessarily want the bag opened - it's very likely this was a test or simply part of the game. Odysseus could have succeeded but it was up to how he and his crew dealt with the situation. Odysseus wouldn't need to sacrifice his own crew if Eurylochus hadn't opened the bag. Six needed to die if they had any chance, and if Eurylochus is gonna be the type to sabotage and overrule his king and captain, he can be the one to choose. Guilt doesn't change the fact that Eurylochus betrayed Odysseus and got countless killed. "Mistake"? He was told what was in that bag and he did it anyway. And, no. Odysseus doesn't want to sacrifice his crew. He doesn't want any more of his crew to die. However, if killing six saves the rest, he'd still do it. That's why he tried to save his crew at the end of Mutiny. He didn't want them to die, but they keep on putting him in positions where he must make sacrifices for the rest. And when it comes down to it, of course he chose to sacrifice the rest of his men. He shouldn't be punished for his own crew's stupidity. They killed the cow, they die for the cow. Easy as.
@@zenithstrikerz1720 I wouldn't even put the 550 on Eurylochus. Poseidon was coming regardless and if he found them at home the place would have probably drowned.
@ Eurylochus tried to talk to Odysseus in private at the start of Full Speed Ahead, Odysseus brushed off his concerns and followed Polites advice instead. That led them to Polyphemus, Eurylochus and the crew wanted to kill the cyclops but Odysseus preferred to let his best friends murderer live, as they go to leave Odysseus is stopped by Athena (goddess of wisdom and his mentor) who tells him to end Polyphemus there and then. Odysseus refuses and then tells the cyclops who he is and where he’s going. If they would’ve just left then Odysseus and the crew would be fine but instead Odysseus chooses to refuse his mentors advice which essentially doomed the whole crew. Polyphemus took Odysseus’ name to Poseidon, Poseidon created the storm and started hunting Odysseus down. Even if the wind bag remained closed Poseidon knew who he was after and where Odysseus was going. The second he revealed his name the crew were as good as dead thanks to Odysseus. Odysseus always meant to sacrifice six men from the moment that the sirens said about Scylla. Odysseus never told the crew about Scylla or her cost, he never planned on leaving it up to chance as he was desperate enough to throw all his mens lives away so he could make it home. He admits in Mutiny “I need to get home” when he’s tied to the statue of Helios before trying to appeal to the crew by saying “we can get home”. After monster he was willing to throw everything away so he could get home safe and sound because he became so paranoid by what the prophet said.
Everyone talk about Eurylochus disobeying Odysseus but most seem to forget about Odysseus disobeying Athena; his patron godess, his mentor, the one who taught him since he was a child and guided him trough ten years of war withought losing a single man. Feels like a pretty big double standard on the part of the community, especially when you consider that said disobedience was why they needed the windbag in the first place. Odysseus and Eurylochus are equally responsible. And the crew didn't do anything wrong until the cows. They wanted to know what was in the bag sure, but they didn't open it.
In fairness to Eury and the crew, their choices were possibly die to a god or definitely die of starvation... Not gonna lie, I'd rather get struck down by lightning than slowly die with agonizing hunger pains.
The way I RAN here. I love your reaction to this series. Especially the way you try put yourself in Ody's shoes. This musical brings out so many emotions. can't wait for the next saga!
I find the downplaying of the crew to be really unfair. I think Jorge made the parallels between the Ody and Eury pretty clear with the Eury using the "I'm just a man" line before attempting to slaughter the cow. Odysseus might be their king and captain but beyond all that, they're all "just a man".
Eurylochus and the crew were starving to death. They lost any hope of getting home after witnessing Odysseus sacrifice the troops and just wanted to die swiftly, at the hand of a god instead of starving to death. Die slow or die swift, those were the options they had left. Also Odysseus is the reason they are not home. He didn’t have to tell the Cyclops who they were, his mentor was telling him to end it by killing the Cyclops yet he chose to reveal his name as they got away. Everything after that was caused by Poseidon who was trying to get at Odysseus.
Scylla killed six men, yes Odysseus did know but his crew didn't and yes the 6 men were kinda like a sacrifice in exchange to safely passing Scylla's lair, he kinda didn't have a choice ^^ For those who say he could have sacrificed sirens instead of men NO he couldn't as Scylla considers other monsters her siblings and doesn't eat them.
He did have a choice. He could have taken the risk along with his men. Instead, he picked six people to die so that he wouldn't. I could also think of a few ways he could have gotten trough Scylla's lair withought loosing anyone but that's just speculations.
@@yoannbelleville7763 then what? he gets picked off what then second in comand who disregarded his captian and opened the bag, who was willing to leave 49 men behind on circes island, the one who not only was the one who said the gods were dangerous but killed a cow on an island with the statue of a god over looking it
@@1nn3r3V1L 1 : chances are Odysseus wouldn't have died anyway. There are still around 30 people left among the crew. Statistically speaking, he would have taken less risk by not marking six of his men for death than he did by losing the trust of the entire crew. 2 : People keep complainning about Eurylochus openning the windbag while convenientely forgetting why they needed that bag in the first place. He may have disobeyed his captain/king but Odysseus disobeyed his patron godess/mentor who not only taught him since he was a child but guided him trough 10 years of war withought losing a single man. Then, he told the same creature who killed his men who he was and were he lived (again, in spite of Athena's warning). How is that any less idiotic ? 3 : leaving a few men for dead (not 49. I'm not sure where you got that number considering that there weren't even that many of them left at that point) because you can't see any realistic way to save them withought Hermes exe machina doesn't compare to actively sacrificing six men to save your own skin. 4 : Had Eurylochus been given the same choice than Odysseus, helikely would have died instead the crew so even if he still killed the cow, there's a chance they would have survived. We can't be sure of course but the emphasis put on his attachement to them troughout the thunder saga suggest that he would.
I don’t think you understand that, even if that’s true and that there is LITERALLY no other way, you have got to look from the perspective of the crew. You just saw your captain, KING, who didn’t lose a single man in a 10 year war, willingly sacrifice 6 of his men, which at this point (and Eurylocus points this out) are probably some of your best friends. If you’re a crew member, that could’ve been you. And you know that. What if he needs to sacrifice more people? Do you wait until that happens and then hope it’s not you he (and he alone) picks? No. Mutinee is pretty much the best choice you have for your own survival as a crew member. And even AFTER the mutinee, they still keep him alive. They even bandage his wounds. A vast majority of mutineers would not give such consideration.
@@yoannbelleville7763I don't get your 2nd point, what do you mean by bag's purpose? Also on your 4th point, by far Eurylochus's mistakes have led to more of the crew dying than Odysseus choices. He is the reason only 1 ship was left, and by the end of his life he was the reason that last ship was stricken by Zeus's lightning
Notice how phantom Penelope is in yellow, which is Zeus' color. I wouldn't put it past him to use her to manipulate Odysseus. After all, he did it in the Troy saga. Edit: As someone has probably pointed out, this particular Thunderbringer animatic is not necessarily canon in that Odysseus and his crew are actually on a boat when this happens. So the ship is destroyed, and Odysseus is last seen in the water. The next saga is NOT from Odysseus' POV. Please keep that in mind. Also, in any story it's always darkest before dawn.
Big thing to know (before I watch and probably comment more): Neal's animation has one VERY important mistake. Ody and his crew were out on the sea when Zeus comes to them so when he blasts them with lightning the ship gets destroyed and Ody falls into the sea. Apologies, kinda long. Edits: Scylla is kinda like the Greek Kraken, not the best comparison but they fill a similar niche. In lore Poseidon isn't 'afraid' of Scylla, from Scylla's lair you can see Charybdis (another Grecian sea monster) who happens to be his daughter and whom has been cursed by Zeus so going to that area is painful to Poseidon... seeing the daughter cursed because she helped him, a daughter he can never help. Yes they would likely have all died if they didn't do the sacrifice, Scylla and Chary destroy any and all ships that go near them but Scylla can be placated... by filling her multiple mouths with food. So it was either loose everyone or sacrifice 6 men. The crew member that stabs Odysseus is named Perimedes, he originally had a song where he (while drunk) says he'd have easily yeeted the baby off the tower cuz he doesn't love anyone. He's also the guy in "Keep your friends close" who tells Ody to open the bag. And with that cow Eury has become responsible for like 95% of the crew's deaths, yes most of those were an 'accident' but it was easily one of the dumbest things ever. "My Captain/King/Brother-in-law went to the Wind God and the all but supernatural storm vanished! HE claimed the bag held the storm but some random winions said it was treasure! I HAD to know if they were telling the truth!" Fun Fact: Zeus need no introduction 1 Thunder IS his introduction and 2... he's the god of Judgment and they just did a bad, of course he's the one that will deliver the punishment. Luke (Holt) has a glorious voice... Fun Fact 2: Penelope's instrument is the Viola, it was absent in Suffering but present here...
one of my favorite reactors. Taking the story seriously, actually processing whats happening (mostly)... Love how you understood the crews perspective of Scylla/Mutiny. Also, when they killed the cows Eury says they're starving and he's given up on making it home- they still might not have all made it all the way to Ithaca.
14:36 In this situation they can eather die of starvation slowly and painfully, or take the risk of killing the cattle and angering the gods, in eather case they will die. Dieing in a split second atomized by a devine thunderbolt shure beats several days of pain and desparation as your body slowly stops functioning.
I really love you reactions to this show!! I have been following your channel for a while now and was so exited when i saw that you reacted to the first song of epic. I love your emotional and honest reaction to every song. Something to know about the next song (Legendary) is that the character that sings is Telemachos and not a young version of Ody (I'm sure that you could have figured that out as well but some people that didnt know the story got confused (especally because their voices sound kind of similar)).
I told you last reaction that these 3 songs would be the true Suffering 5:14 this has got to be the best reaction to Scylla I have ever seen and I have watched a few reactions Ody did not know he KNEW that Scylla had a cost 6 lives OR the entire crew as they moved through the dark SO he said “light up 6 torches” not picking who will die but leaving it to fate as to what 6 crew members would be sacrificed so the rest of the crew could live
for future context jay intended to have them all on the boat in thunder bringer which would then be destroyed with ody being cast into the water at the end which sets up for the next saga. I do love neals zeus and the whole animation is beautifully donw
7:18 only 6 died, and yes, he wanted eury to grab one, but worst than that “eurilicus, light up 6 torches” that comand make Euri, not odyseus, to be the one picking who will died, its not only odiseus the one who will feel tguilt for their death
Odysseus and Eurylochus are equally responsible for their misadventures. One disobeyed his patron godess by refusing to kill a deadly foe and then gave said foe his name, drawing Poseidon's hire. The other disobeyed his captain and king by openning the windbag. They mirror eachother in their mistakes while the crew pay the price.
For Scylla, she has six heads and she can't attack when her mouths are full. So if six men died, the others could escape. I think that's a fair trade, especially considering it's the first time Ody's outright scarified someone.
I mean... Helos (the Sun God) was asking Zeus to kill the crew. Zeus was just fucking with Odysseus along the way. That why he conjured the illusion of Odysseus's wife (colored in the color of Zeus's lightning) - and to really twist the knife had her repeat the lines of the Siren. It was Odysseus's choice as much as anyone gets a choice around Zeus. It wouldn't have ended well for anyone if Odysseus hadn't chosen the way Zeus wanted him to.
The legend of Scylla is basically that she is a monster in the cliffs near a lethal whirlpool. You either lose your ship to the whirlpool, lose 6 men (one for each head) by rushing through, or try to fight and all die. "Scylla has a cost" as it was said in suffering. Not a risk, a COST. But it's the only way home so it's sac 6 men or they all die on the run from Wet Hades.
Don’t forget, Odysseus mentioned Scylla had a cost. That cost being feeding the heads of Scylla in exchange for safe passage. As for who was chosen, it wasn’t Ody who did so technically. He told Eurylochus to light up the torches and likely figured he’d hand them out to the ones to helped him with the wind bag. After hearing Eury was part of the whole thing, Ody wanted to get rid of those most likely to oppose him. Or at least that’s my leading theory.
One thing worth pointing out for context as you continue to the next saga: the "Thunder Bringer" animatic you watched took some artistic liberty, the canon visual Jay streamed in his Livestream shows Odysseus falling in the water. In fact at the end of "Mutiny" he talks about rowing faster, so they were in the middle of the ocean at that point when Zeus struck them!
In the OG Odyssey, or at least in one of the tellings of it, iirc, the cow murder was very much Eury and the Crew choosing to commit suicide via Godly Retribution as opposed to starving to death. Here it seems very much a case of hunger clouding the mind, as almost immediately afterwards when shit hits the fan and Ody yells at him, Eury seems confused like he's only just realizing the actual weight of what he's done.
YES! YEESSSSSS!!!! You're one of the few reactors who picked up on what happened in Scylla on the first go. Love that so much. Also love the emotion you're showing. I'mma sound like a villain, but thank you for suffering for us. It really makes these reactions special.
Quick note about the lyrics: Scylla could be argued to be talking directly to Odysseus in her song. She says, “Deep down, we are the same you and I…. “We only care for ourselves…” like the gods and just about every other powerful being in this story are trying to teach/convince Odysseus that he needs to be more selfish. (His men were, after all, when killing the Sun God’s cow and when opening the bag and when entering Circe’s lair.)
Moral or not, I make the argument that whether or not Odysseus willingly chose to sacrifice 6 men doesn’t matter, because more than 6 would’ve died if he didn’t light the torches. And in my opinion, Eurylocchus has no right to complain about sacrificing 6 men, when he is indirectly responsible for them not making it home and which led to Poseidon killing 550+ crewmembers.
@@jorgemm859 yeah Poseidon would have *never* figured out where ody is right? It's not like Ody revealed where he lives and his status as a king. Also, there's nothing in the source material that Scylla could have killed more than six men. In the Odyssey six random men are plucked out. Odysseus gave the six torches so he could save his own ass. That's the difference between Eury and Ody. Eury never intentionally killed the people. If anything Ody put him in that kind of position. He threatened him in Luck Runs Out and the Winions of course. Then he sent him on a recon in Circe's island. Eury was right to leave those men because if Hermes hadn't intervened, Ody would 100% be dead
Came here for the expressions... Scylla-shock, check... Mutiny-stunned and sad, check- started a bit early, since you understood Odysseus' actions... "I was convinced they were all about to die on that island!" Um, wait...3-ish minutes? Thunder Bringer- despair, wonderful. I am honestly impressed that they made him as imposing and authoritative and as sleazy as they did at the same time. Anyway, the thing I like most about Mutiny is the Eury is absolutely right about Odysseus' actions- in every other conflict, he has come up with quick, effective, and insightful tactics that might not have saved everyone, but certainly kept some people alive. In Scylla, he doesn't say anything- because he's already decided on the strategy of sacrifice. And because of that, when he finally, desperately needs the crew to trust his decisions... they don't. Now I really can't wait for the Wisdom saga! Legendary, ho!
Eurylochus by the end of Mutiny basically admits he's suicidal. He see's his options as either all of the men slowly rotting away, or taking a risk and getting struck down quicker.
Remeber that Odysseus doesnt have the emotional history with his son as he does with Penelope. His son was between a newborn and a year when he left for war. His son is now about 13 at this moment in the story. In the book its not in chronological order so we start where the next saga starts then go back to leaving the war. Also as much as i love this version of thunder bringer it does take place out at sea. (Might help a bit with the next version). Some stories says the gods have beef as the greeks destroyed the yemples to the gods when they deatroyed troy. The templea at troy that is
Ody didn’t have much of a choice. It was either they fight and die, or he sacrifice one person to each head so that the rest could get out unscathed. Sooo if he didn’t a lot more would have died, or maybe all of them. He did what he could to ensure the safety as many as possible. Also, yeah, that’s Zues. The reason he shows up is because Helios (the god of the sun) was mad that Ody’s crew killed one of his cows. He went to Zeus and threatened to take the sun to the underworld if he didn’t do something about the cow incident.
Eurylochus makes dumb choices, but he has never secretly plotted the deaths of their own crew members Even with Circe, he was right that they had no way to defeat her and get their men back, if it wasn't for the random intervention of a literal god
In the original poems the crew had been stuck there for months. At this point Odysseus was in the mountains or something I forget. Either way Eurylochus decided a quick death by god was better than a slow death by starvation so they sacrificed the cows to the gods and ate them, hoping for the best.
The next saga (the Wisdom Saga) consists of 5 songs and I'd recommend splitting them up like this, with the first 3 together and the last 2 together: 1 Legendary 2 Little Wolf 3 We'll Be Fine ------- 4 Love in Paradise 5 God Games
Fun fact for those who do not know Luke Holt who voices Zeus will randomly slip into his Zeus voice when hes streaming and playing Stardew Valley and other games
Something hit me the other day like a ton of bricks, and I was reminded of it when you pointed out he sees Penelope, "the version that was presented to him by the Sirens." Sirens were known to sing men to their doom, luring them from their ship by showing them their hearts greatest desire. For Odysseus, he sees getting to his wife and being with her as what will make all this suffering bearable, being in her arms will take all the suffering away. And while he loves and wants to see Telemachus, his wife has always come first
youre the only reactor ive seen understand the torches sacrifice without prior knowledge and before its explained in mutiny. although u cant call starving ppl idiots, starvation is near impossible to bear. and u cant really hold the whole crew as wrong prior to mutiny since its revealed eurylochus alone opened the bag
one of my favorite reactions to these songs! you picked up on so many details right away, and i'm right there with you on the emotional toll of this saga. it really is gutpunch after gutpunch. 'now he's just stranded on the sun god's island?' worth noting that canonically they were onboard the ship during thunderbringer. at the end of this saga we leave odysseus stranded in the middle of the ocean :)
In most Thunder Bringer animatics, Zeus hurls down a thunderbolt at the ship/crew. In Neal's, he casually drops it like it's nothing. Perfectly sums up the attitude of a Zeus that sees everything as being for his own amusement, as he will in God Games.
Small note that according to the official livestream animatics of Thunder Bringer, where they were all smited by Zeus while on their ship sailing away from the island, that the song ends with Odysseus falling and sinking into the water!
Every time I see thunder bringer I always laugh at the beginning because Zeus is always making things a little sexual 😂😂😂😂😂 by the way I don't know much about Zeus but basically he's basically a horndog and really arrogant 😂
One important thing you need to know, in this animatic for the “Thunderbringer” the artist did things a little differently But if you remember the previous song they did get on the the boat and started rowing so when Zeus comes in they’re not on an island they’re on a boat I would recommend to watch another one to see what happens at the end so you can connect things better for the next Saga
In I’m Just a Man, Odysseus says “deep down, I would trade the world to see my son and wife” and it’s cool to see that echoed by Scylla in the first half of her song. These three songs are where we find out just how much he truly meant that.
So i just wanna say because few people seem to realize this but the men knew what might happen if they killed the cows but they were so hungry and suffering to the point that theyd risk it just for some food they are truly suffering from fatigue of 13 years away from home and have given up hope "Ody were never gonna get to make it home" it was food now death later or death now
A little thing to note is that Thunderbringer is meant to take place on a ship as the crew were sailing away from the Sun Gods island so when Zeus kills the crew he also throws Odysseus into the ocean.
I'm pretty sure when Ody told Eurylocus to light 6 torches he knew he needed 6 men to die but telling Eurylocus to do it means after passing the other 5 out Eurylocus would be holding one, so he subconsciously tried killing Eurylocus.
Luke Holt, voice of Zeus, is trained in opera singing if I remember right. He is also the only god to not have his name brought up, because as Jorge said: He doesn't need that. Everybody knows who he is.
One thing I find very fascinating about one difference from the various Zeus' and Neal's is that end of the song, most of them *throw* the lightning, it's an active *strike*. Neal's Zeus? He makes the lightning ball, and then just tips his hand. Dropping it *casually* onto the crew, no effort whatsoever. Just a careless little tip of a gods hand, and 38 men were gone in a literal flash. Oh, and about Ody seemingly not thinking about his kid... the little melody at the end of Thunderbringer is called "Telemachus' Lullaby". So, yeah. Ody might have said "her", but he was definitely thinking "them".
A fun thing to note about thunder bringer, but the reason Zeus doesn't have his name said by anyone unlike any of the other gods is to illustrate that he needs no introduction as THE king of the gods. also, Penelope's voice drowns out the voice of his own crew. loving your reactions to this series so far, you never dissapoint! also, small recommendation, but for the next couple of sagas you should see if you can find the animatics/animations that were used in the livestreams the creator did when releasing the sagas.
I have to say that the live stream Scylla that is more faithfull to how she really looks is even SCARIER. I TOTALLY reccomnd looking up what she looks like.
this came out well timed, and i see neal illustrators thunder bringer nice for the wisdom saga, i vote either just anni flama, or anni first and then neals, neals is amazing but anni just feels like they represented the god games so well
it was 6 men or all men, that is the deal when you travel to her lair. She is blind, but she sees light, if all 6 of her heads are fed, she will let your ship pass through. If she gets none, she will sink the entire ship and eat all of them. It was their only way back home.
In the original tale, Scylla and Charybdis inhabited the same strait (most likely the Strait of Messina). The choice was either sail too close to Charybdis and lose all or sail too close to Scylla and lose only six men. In this adaptation, it is most likely that the results would have been the same: either lose all in darkness or light up six torches (one for each head) and lose only six men. Fun fact: Scylla was originally a nymph who fell in love with the sea-god Glaucus. Unfortunately for Scylla, Circe (the same Circe from the Circe Saga) was also in love with Glaucus and was envious that Glaucus favored Scylla over her and so she turned Scylla into a monster while she was bathing in the sea. In the original tale of The Odyssey, the men knew not to hurt any of the cattle on the island of Helios. However, they were pretty much stranded on the island for months due to unfavorable winds and storm. Odysseus's men slaughtered some of the choice cattle to offer as sacrifices to gain favorable winds as well as food. Enraged, Helios threatened to never rise over the earth again unless those responsible were dealt with. Zeus agreed to destroy Odysseus's men to ensure that the natural order of night and day was maintained, so either way Odysseus's men were doomed to die when they laid hands on Helios's cattle. You can trace all of Odysseus's woe back to the oath that the Aegean nobles made when Helen married Menelaus to protect the sanctity of that marriage and the honor of the house of Atreides (which was made of Menelaus king of Sparta and his brother Agamemnon). The one who came up with the idea of that oath: Odysseus since he understood that when Helen chose who she would marry she would most likely choose Menelaus as he was the most handsome and strongest of the lords who assembled to vie for her hand. He saw it as a good way of ensuring that the lords would not come together to plot against whoever she chose to be her husband since Menelaus was brother to Agamemnon who was referred to as "the king of kings" in a lot of accounts. You can also blame Eris, goddess of discord for the golden apple that caused the argument of which goddess was the most beautiful among Hera, Athena, and Aphrodite that resulted in the judgment of Paris that helped to lead to the Trojan War. Even Heracles (aka Hercules) has some blame because when he attacked Troy after his labors he took one of Priam's sisters as hostage and Priam's desire to bring his sister back to Ilium was what led to the envoy led by Paris going to Sparta. The vast majority of Greek mythology is interconnected in some way and it is a case of ripples becoming tidal waves.
"fun" fact about Mutiny and thunder bringer, in the original version when the crew killed the cow Helios went to Zeus and told him that if he didn't do something about it he was going to put the sun into the underworld and make humanity live in darkness. So Zeus, who hadn't really cared was like "okay, calm down, ill handle it." and that's why he punished Odysseus and his crew.
SOME CONTEX THAT GETS LOST IN THE THINDERBRINGER ANIMATIC: In the actual cannon of Epic they were on a boat in the ocean and Zeus also destroys the boat when killing the crew leaving odysseys on his own in the middle of the ocean, its not too important, but does provide some context for some future songs. basically he's not on the sun god island
Brilliant reaction as always. Its always amazing to see how you react and feel with each new song. Of the people I've watched react to Scylla you are one of the few who picked up on the 6 sacrifices so quickly. I also kept having myself reacting to your comments saying just wait till the next song/line hahaha. I can't wait to see how you feel about the next Saga. A little side note btw; in the official animatic of Thunder Bringer Odysseus and his crew were on the ship when Zeus shows up and does his thing. So when it ends Ody has fallen into the sea with his ship destroyed and slowly sinks down as the animatic ends. I mention this because of a future song.
⏳ LOG HORIZON BEGINS TONIGHT!!! ⏳
💜 TONIGHT ON TWITCH at 8:30pm GMT!!! 💜
🔗 www.twitch.tv/gotgames_tb 🔗
The thing about Eurylocus is that he has every right to mutiny. But the thing that ticks me off about him is that he doesn't follow through. As soon as shit hit the fan he goes, "Captain?" And I'm like naw babe, you mutinied. He ain't the captain anymore, you are! "You want all the power, you must carry all the blame!"
YES!!! I've been saying this exact thing for ages! I totally get the mutiny, b/c even if the sacrifice was necessary, Ody should've talked to the crew first and maybe had them draw "straws" or smth if nobody volunteered to be a distraction. I even get risking death by the gods over starvation! But you can't just go "Captain? 🥺" and expect the man you stabbed and tied up to save you from your own choices!! *flips a table*
THIS!
The poor fella is caught between viewing Odyseuss as their king, the ship's captain, and a brother in law throughout everything. He's so used to following orders, he prob never understood the true toll there is to being in a leading role like that. It feels human for him to revert to what he's used to.
True 💯
Right? and he's all "how dare you sacrifice six friends to get home" as if he didn't 'sacrifice' nearly all 600 men to open a 'treasure' they already possessed?!
⚠️IMPORTANT THING TO KNOW GOING INTO THE NEXT SAGA⚠️
The first three songs are NOT in Odysseus’s point of view
I have a feeling the recent Mattables reaction to the wisdom saga may have sparked this comment lol, still important to know tho.
@@lunarbl4de476it's happened more than you realize
@@lunarbl4de476It's not just him too, I've seen so many reactors do the same thing 🤣🤣
@@btmikey1925 do what?
@@somedudewatchintv5297 Do an entire reaction to the Wisdom Saga thinking that Telemachus is Ody
"I can't understand why they're doing this" In the og myth, the men were trapped on the sun god's island and starving, until Eurylichus told them that they'd get a win win. Either they live and build a temple to helios back home or else are granted a quicker demise than slowly wasting away. It's also why Ody kept saying "we can get home" but Eury gave up and so did his men
To be more specific, dying of starvation/dehydration was apparently one of the least honorable ways to die in Ancient Greek culture, spending any more time on the sea and risking members of the crew starving/thirsting was basically the worst thing they could think of, yes even worse than dying in any of the other ways presented to us throughout the musical
@@casuallectures2655 I mean, if my only options were "starve to death" and "get smited quickly", I'd probably say fuck it, we're going down in a kaboom - dying of starvation sounds absolutely horrifying! The pain and nausea of not eating, getting weaker and weaker, head dizzy, eyes blurring, and it might take weeks to MONTHS to actually die, if you still have water to drink D:
Jorge actually explained that he wanted to establish Zeus' character by not even have him address Odysseus and his crew until later in the song and just talks about himself.
Also, idk if you noticed:
"Thunder bringer"
"Thunder bring-her"
"Lightning weilder"
"Lightning weild-her"
Basically more lines that establish Zeus' character by refering to Pride as a Women that he alone can have. In simpler terms, Zeus thinks he is the only person who can have pride/arrogance/hubris but odysseus was the one who was having it and Zeus rips that pride away from him
😮😮
Its important to note that at this point EPIC the musical has departed pretty severely from the source material.
Most importantly Zeus did not force any kind of Choice on Odysseus he simply blew up the ship killing everyone except Odysseus(who survived because he was still under the divine protection of Athena)
Also In the original.. Odysseus did choose to enter the lair of Scylla knowing it would cost 6 men's lives.. but they basically yolo'd it.
On the island of cows Odysseus opposed them landing on the island at all.. but after they landed Poseiden's storm kept them stuck on the island for over a month.. over a month of starvation is what finally led his men to kill the divine cattle and summon the wrath of the gods
Yeah I feel like people really don’t understand how horrible Starvation is, ofc it’ll drive you to do something like killing a sacred cow if it means eating.
So a bit of a correction, in the original there is no “lair of Scylla” - Odysseus was sailing between Scylla and Charybdis but they got to close to Scylla so she attacked the ship, seeing an opening, Odysseus just booked it but he didn’t intentionally sacrifice people in the book.
@@owenbridgers On the other hand, in the original story (if I remember it correctly), they were also specifically told by the prophet that they would make it home fine as long as they refrained from eating said cows.
On a semi-related note, I have a big problem with No Longer You, Suffering and Different Beast because of this departure. Suffering and Different Beast feel pointless as songs (and do not make much sense anyway for various reasons) because the relevant information should have been told in No Longer You. Since it was not, No Longer You contributed absolutely none of the information it should have, and they felt the need to include Suffering and Different Beast to fill that gap and bridge to Scylla, when Scylla would have worked fine as the start of the saga, which would have let them split Mutiny into one song about the betrayal (since they wanted that change), and one song about the privation that led to the stupid decision.
@@tiredtortoise3396 Yeah my least favorite song in EPIC is in the most recent saga because "six hundred strike" breaks the continuity not just of EPIC but of all greek mythology. (A mortal should simply not be capable of fighting or damaging a god, thats a modern concept that is nonexistent in greek myths). But Suffering and Different Beasts are strong runners up for my least favorites after that one and your perspective is interesting on how it could be done better
@tiredtortoise3396 The first two songs of this saga made sense in terms of showing that Odysseus really has become a monster and is willing to do anything to get home.
Of course, we saw this in the song "Scylla", but it seems to me that the transition would have been too abrupt if it had all started with it.
And as you already said, these songs were necessary because he had not learned about Scylla from the prophet earlier.
Everyone is free to relate to this as they want, but still I like that the prophet here is not some kind of wise advisor, he literally just told him how he sees his future, which led to Odysseus' doubts about his decisions.
If he had simply told him in this song that you must go through Scylla by sacrificing your people (which, by the way, in the original was advised by Circe, not the prophet), then the story would have developed in a completely different direction. The song "monster" as a conclusion to the first saga is good precisely because Odysseus makes this decision himself. If he was told that this was the only way, it wouldn't feel like Odysseus's true decision. It would feel like the baby he dropped in the first saga. We wouldn't get any character development in my opinion
The slow mouth drop as Scylla was revealed was gold
😮
For those who don't know, each character is assigned an instrument. Odysseus is the guitar, Penelope is the viola, and so on and so forth. But Eurylochus... his instrument is uniquely, the Crew. This is why he was the most hurt by what Odysseus did. He lives for his crew, his brothers.
It becomes one of those ticking time bombs. The viewer knows but the MC doesn't. As someone who already knew Eurylochus opened the bag due to reading the book I assumed the animatics got some word from Jorge that it was getting changed as it only takes a quick google to find out who actually opened the bag. I think the reveal of Eurylochus having opened the bag could of been done better with the knowledge. I more visceral reaction rather than a narrator describing the scene.
😮
You're the first reactor I've seen that forgot what was said in Suffering but still interpreted the torch situation properly. It's unbelievable the amount of people who just think Odysseus was sacrificing them willy nilly. Scylla was shown to have heat based vision in Gigi's animatic, so yeah, the torches were bait, and it was the only way to get pass Poseidon. Scylla has 6 heads, so 6 torches = 6 men. Also, yeeeah, he did try to kill Eurylochus cuz he was supposed to be holding a torch too but he let it fall and someone else took it
I always argue that Odysseus wasn't 100% in the wrong in Mutiny because the other option would destroy the entire ship, at least sacrificing 6 men meant the other 30 something would still be alive. It's the trolley problem. But he didn't tell the crew where they were going and what he was going to do, so he was wrong there. You can't even be too mad at Eurylochus cuz you'd be doubting Odysseus too
The thing people forget after a while is that Odysseus literally said in the first song of the entire musical he'd trade the world to see his wife and son. You can't be too mad at him for doing exactly that when push comes to shove, he told us, and Zeus knew it too. I'd recommend seeing the next three songs in one video (Legendary x Little Wolf x We'll Be Fine) because they're direct continuations of each other, and then Love in Paradise x God Games in another
I feel like Eurylochus has no right to judge Odysseus for sacrificing a mere 6 men when he got 550 of them killed when he opened the wind bag after being warned, he was told what was going to happen if he opened the bag and still went behind Odysseus back, like you cannot be complaining about a mere 6 deaths when you're responsible for 550 yourself, this isn't even payback in comparison
@Nulnhility but to be fair fair, he didn't know they would die if he opened the bag, while Ody totally knew 6 of the men would die, and deliberately gave them the torchs
@@thatsroughbuddy_ He did know it was risking death though. Remember in Storm he's the one who said "At this rate we won't make it out alive"
He knew the storm was deadly, and was told opening the bag would release it.
Even if he couldn't predict Poseidon getting involved, he knew that if Odysseus was telling the truth he was risking drowning the whole fleet.
Ah, yes, the unstoppable duo:
*Wet Hades and Dry Poseidon* 😂😂
And the divine sugar sugar momma
I literally laughed so hard when I heard him say dry Poseidon and I thought of wet Hades
I believe in the original story, Eurylochus weighs the options of a slow death by starvation on the sea with false hope that they ever reach home or a 50/50 gamble between getting to eat these cows or getting instantly smited by the gods here and now... and chooses the 50/50 gamble, because a quick death would be easier than what Odysseus is asking him to endure
He says that if given the chance, he'll offer to raise a temple to Helios as repayment. But yeah, he pretty much knows it's essentially suicide, but thinks it's a better death
Ah wow 😮
12:35 the trust of his entire crew was already broken, as soon as they sided with Eurylochus on opening the back
bag*
Eurylochus' quote in the Odyssey goes like this: "Listen to me, my comrades, brothers in hardship. All ways of dying are hateful to us poor mortals, true, but to die of hunger, starve to death-that’s the worst of all. So up with you now, let’s drive off the pick of Helios’ sleek herds, slaughter them to the gods who rule the skies up there. If we ever make it home to Ithaca, native ground, erect at once a glorious temple to the Sungod, line the walls with hoards of dazzling gifts! But if the Sun, inflamed for his longhorn cattle, means to wreck our ship and the other gods pitch in-I’d rather die at sea, with one deep gulp of death, than die by inches on this desolate island here!"
In the Homer Odyssey, Circe advised Odysseus to sacrifice six crew members in the Scylla lair. If not, he and his entire crew would die.
🤔
@@GOTGames Yeah, because it was either passing close enough for Scylla to snag six men, or sail close enough for Charybdis to suck in the entire ship and kill them all.
Fun fact about Scylla shes blind but the way she can see is when only when there's light source so that's why Odysseus said light up 6 torch is because literally she can literally see six of the torches Odysseus had to sacrifice his 6 of his men because if they didn't they would have died there also with the music you can literally hear 6 of the man screaming because their dying by Scylla 😭
fam you'd also be blind in the dark, the fuck?
Actually she’s not blind. That is more of Gigi’s interpretation. Normally Scylla is watching for ships that get too close to attack. Although in Epic I’m wondering if Scylla and Charybdis are not as close to each other as they usually are
Fun fact: most people can only see when there’s light
@@Megamanlanprime oh okay I didn't know that lol I'm kind of new to the epic and Greek mythology stuff thanks for the info :)
Oh my 😮
Well I mean, they didn't depict Eurylochus opening the bag because for one, they didn't know. All animatics, aside from the official livestreams, are fan-made. And secondly, even if they did know that, it would ruin the shock of it wouldn't it?
Absolutely!
25:00 this over here, this is the face of PAIN.
Just to add that Thunderbringer actually happens in the ocean while they are in the ship, and it ends with Odyseus falling into the ocean and you will see in the next saga what happens to him. I love Neal Illustrator's animatic for it, but just to know where the actual setting happens will help understand what happens next
*Get in the water!*
In suffering when “Penelope” says to go through the lair of Scylla, ody says “but Scylla has a cost”. Ody knew what that cost were: the lives of six men - because Scylla has six heads, it’s a man per head basically. If he hadn’t done that, they all would’ve died. In the original animatic, eury also picks up a torch but drops it at some point, trying to save the men. So it’s probable that ody tried to get eury to be one of those six
Also the sun god in question is called Helios. He has pet cows. It’s adorable
Eury really picked the wrong time to be a dumbass and stop listening to his captain
I just love your distaste for his men. It’s so funny and every time you say “an army of dodo birds” I cry a little of laughter😂😂😂
Neal illustrator continues to depict Zeus as the creepy horny teenager he is and I both love it and hate it
(I keep adding to this but I have THOUGHTS)
I’ve never seen anyone talking about it but can we talk about when Zeus is holding the lightning betwixt his hands, it’s (once again) shaped like a woman? Honestly the fact that he hasn’t tried mating with his lightning yet is a wonder😂😂
How exactly would everyone die? There's no proof of that. Doesn't happen in the original. Ody doesn't kill six of his crew to escape. Scylla just takes the six she can eat
@ I mean, why else would she ‘have a cost’ if you could just sail through without repercussions?
@@sarahhandberg5185 Yeah, the cost is six people and that's it. the torches were lit up so that Ody wouldn't be picked off. That's why Scylla says, "We are the same, you and I." and Odysseus even joins in.
@ okay. Luckily this is art and there’re multiple interpretations, just like the discussions about Circe. This is just mine
“Why does this feel so sad?”
_Two seconds later_
Eurylochus- “My actions inadvertently caused the lives of over 500 men and your mom.”
I really love how Zeus straight up tells him that it's pride that has led to this. First off, the gods are fickle and within all the virtue he has, there's pride. It was his pride by not heeding Athena's (a goddess) warning to kill the cyclops, then revealing his name, saying "remember me," like a challenge that Poseidon took because the insult of doing that to one of his. That just jump-started everything.
You basically got it, if the 6 torches weren't lit, all the men would die. Or at least majority of them. So odysseus chose to sack off 6 men so the rest could get through.
If you think about it, it sort of parallels Eury on Circe's island when he wanted to leave the rest of the men and cut their loses. Eury thought the men were as good as dead(They basically were and would've been without Hermes help) and there was no way to get them back so he thought they should "Cut their loses" and leave. Odysseus knew there was no other way to get home other than through Scylla so he chose to "cut their loses" and sack off 6 men(he probably hoped Eury would be one of them since he didn't directly tell Eury to hand out the torches) so the rest of them could escape.
Edit: In fact, I'm willing to bet odysseus thought just like the crew thought when he found out Eury opened the bag. 'There's no guarantee that Eury wouldn't betray me again so it's better if he dies here.'
This isn't true. The six torches were just Jorge's flair, a way to easier understand how many people would get claimed, and not something that happened in the Odyssey. Ships that sail through Scylla's lair will always lose six men, one for each head, and has nothing to do with willing sacrifice.
They chose to sail closer to Scylla, which would only cost six lives, than Charybdis, which would destroy the entire ship, and cost all their lives. "Between a rock and a hard place" indeed.
@@sleepyalexa Oh that's new, did Jorge say this in a short/tiktok whether this detail carried through to EPIC?
No? Ody sailed near Scylla because the siren told him Scylla was the only way to get home and not get attacked by poseidon in different beast. There was no mention of Charybdis until the actual song. And Ody still met Charybdis
@@ThePr1nceOfNothing Jorge didn't write The Odyssey :) Plenty is left unsaid in a short musical, and trying to sum up all the mythology into it is impossible. That's why I corrected you, since you made a claim that isn't true. Whether the Musical "canon" says torches must be lit or everyone would die isn't confirmed nor denied, so I'll just stick to the original mythology, and presume Jorge wanted to add some flair and clarity as to what happened with Scylla, and how many men were lost.
@sleepyalexa yeah but Jorge wrote EPIC, and made quite a few creative liberties in order to get the message he wished to deliver across even if it deviated from the original work. I just stated how it was in the musical. I understand what you mean, but I'll just have to agree to disagree
@@ThePr1nceOfNothing Scylla's lair is next to Charybdis. The only way past is to go between them, and Odysseus chose to go nearer her than the assured destruction of his remaining ship via whirlpool. The location of these things aren't explicitly stated in the Musical, but we know where they exist through mythology. Assuming they're somewhere else in Musical "canon", when Jorge hasn't said so, is a bit silly, and it only makes sense to rely on the "facts" of the original mythology, as with Scylla.
In a sense, you can still understand their reaction. The crew gave up on the idea of going home. It’s been two years, twelve if you count the war. They faced monsters, they are lost at sea when the god of tides is after them… up until now, Odysseus was protecting them. But then they realized they were expandable, plus the hunger and the exhaustion. They lost faith. What’s the point of fighting in this conditions knowing they’ll never make it home ? That’s the question Eury asked Ody, and he is the voice of the crew. When they lost their faith in their captain they lost their will to keep trying.
But then again, the mutiny was their choice, they put the load of becoming a monster on Odysseus shoulder alone but did not follow through when he did what was necessary to save the whole crew. It pains me for Ody to have to take on the blame of that choice, but they called for it.
A VERY interesting take on 23:14, something I forever will applaud NealIllustrator for, Penelope is coloured yellow because she’s a vision that Zeus shows to Odysseus. In Horse and an Infant, Zeus showed him a vision of the future so we KNOW he can do that. Throughout the whole animatic for Thunder Bringer, yellow is closely related to Zeus. His eyes, his POWER! The decision to make Penelope YELLOW TOO?? NealIllustrator’s interpretation of it definitely indicates that Penelope is a vision shown by Zeus to further develop the plot ‘cause Gods do mostly see human misery as entertainment. What better way to extend said entertainment by making Ody choose to live and add on to the amount of men he’s lost in this journey.
26:28 As for you saying that “I thought that his child would be his main focus”, something many of us have noticed is that the only one who talks about Telemachus being a motivation so far is Odysseus himself. The Gods reference only Penelope. 😢
This reaction did not disappoint!
Recommended order for next saga: 1, 2, and 3 then 4 & 5 (5 can be another Neil Illustrator animatic!)
And to avoid confusion I see in other reactor channels, in case it is AT ALL UNCLEAR: the singer in the first song of the next Saga is NOT Odysseus. I think you'd have caught that but it makes it super confusing if it is missed and it kinda ruins the reaction.
Keep it up, can't wait for the next.
i think song 5 should be anniflamma for god games
❤
I love, love, love that you empathize with the crew over ody! Hes the protag, so most people ive seen immediately side with him but like, Ody blindly following the lotus eaters to a cyclops, letting it live, etc. Set up his crew to doubt choices, then a dog plays a little trick on him by essentially setting a trap in the form of "its treasure", which only sets off another issue when Ody doesnt apologize but tries to outwit Posideon, etc. Of course the crew would get upset, everything else was on accident until Scylla. Ody left his crew in a position to be starving, killed on purpose, and desperate enough that theyd rather die by smiting than starvation.
Like, Ody can have all of his just a man moments he wants and its fine, but god forbid someone else quotes him verbatim and suddenly its a bad thing.
i get that, i understand both sides its a story without hero's just people doing what they can to survive , but to be fair to Ody, polities his best friend was really pushing for them to trust the lotus eaters, plus like Eurylochus he was desperate for food and took his chances with the random cave. he didn't really give them a reason to doubt, it was his quick thinking with lotus wine that ultimately allowed them to win and escape, up until the cyclops surprised them with the club, Odys orders and commands were working, he told them straight up don't open this bag if you want to get home, and only Eurylochus seemed to not listen. When it comes to Poseidon yes he didn't actually say that hes sorry, he should of, but he also specifically told the truth and didn't lie to a god, plus 'Ruthless is Mercy' Poseidon wasn't gonna except any apology anyway (not that ody knew that). but the rest of it fully agree on, he sacrificed them with scyla, the mutiny was justified. and ye the crew made a mistake out of desperation and its not like ody blamed them for it hes done it himself, he just tried to stop them. But yes its not a story were you should always support the protags choices
also just wanna add, im not defending ody or bashing the crew just adding counter points and reasonings, everyone in this story made mistakes and were right at times with their own justifications, and you cant really fully side with either.
In the Odyssey, Eurylochus knows that killing the cows is basically suicide. He gives a big speech about how, if given the chance, they'll build a temple to the Sun God in Ithica as an apology. But knows that there's a very good chance they won't get that opportunity and just thinks that dying from a God smiting them must be quicker and easier than slowly dying over the course of week due to starvation and watching the rest of his crew dying around him
Myth fact here :
When the crew arrived on Helios island they were starving, in the original they knew to not hurt the cow but they couldn't get away from the island (thanks Zeus, if I remember correctly), then they were so much hungry and tired they decided to kill the cows. Remember it was years since they didn't returned home.
To be fair for the crew there are no good choices here.
As bearer of Source Material Trauma, I am here once gain.
Scylla was originally next to another monster (we will see them later, it got moved in the translation to Epic), and the choice was "Let everyone die to Monster 1, or only 6 of us die to Scylla". also to answer your question, if they didn't light up torches, Scylla would just start smashing the ship until she managed to catch 6 people, but by that time, the ship would not exactly be in sailing shape anymore.
On the Isle of Helios (where the cows are) Eurylocus gave up on living. He knew what would happen if they killed the cows, but basically said "We will build atemple here in Helios' honor, and if he is still pissed, then at least we die quicky and with full stomachs instead of slowly starving to death. Either way, we arent making it home." The crew has given up at this point and are essentially choosing to die on their feet instead of withering away.
This is actually not the first time we have met Zeus in Epic. The first time was in the very first song, The horse and the Infant. Zeus was the one who told Odysseus to kills the child. Now he is back, and forcing another choice onto Odysseus. What a bellend.
Neal's animatic is amazing, but doesn't really tie into mutiny or the next saga well. Cannonically, they were on the boat when Zeus shows up. That detail is important for setting up the next saga.
I'm so glad you picked up on the fact that Scylla is targeting the men with the torches. A lot of people seem to miss that detail.
Edit: As for why *six* torches... Scylla has six heads.
Got to say the next three songs are NOT from Odysseus POV, but are from his son. And there is a 7-year time skip
BTW, loved your reactions
When the sirens told him the lair of Scylla was the only way home he said "but Scylla has a cost", he knew but even in Mutiny when he yells "I can't" he cost him just as much morally as it did in men
What a saga this was, huh? 🤣 Fact, and animatic time!
-The guy that stabbed Odysseus is Perimedes. In the original draft of Epic he and another character had larger parts to play.
-Scylla was one of Circe’s nymphs, but she cursed her because a man Circe loved cared for Scylla instead. You can hear part of Circe’s instruments during Scylla’s song as a nod to that.
-During Mutiny, Odysseus’ battle instrument, the electric guitar, and Eurylochus’ instrument, the crew, are musically battling, just like how Odysseus and Eurylochus are.
•So, animatic recommendations, and *an important note* . People will ask for Neal Illustrator’s God Games, but it’s _very hard_ on people with photo sensitivity. You can always check it out later, but it’s up to you. For all of the songs, I really like the livestream’s versions, but if you want to stick with fan ones, these are what I’d recommend:
Legendary- DuvetBox
Little Wolf- DuvetBox
We’ll Be Fine- SincerelyMaxx
Love in Paradise- DuvetBox or Mikuchis
God Games- AnniFlama, or Noir.Hyacinth
Also, The Wisdom Saga takes place 7 years after Thunder Bringer. The first song is from his son’s POV.
The way I see it, Eury killing the cow wasn't so much as just a "stupid decision" but more so a desperate one. It wasn't a good idea by any means but you also gotta keep in mind that starvation is no joke. It can drive people to make extreme and desperate decisions
In the original poems they were there for months trapped by a storm. He decided a quick death by god would be better than slow death by starvation so they sacrificed and ate the cows hoping for the best.
@somedudewatchintv5297 oh that's even worse... I feel so bad for them dude...
That time-travel-fix-it ending does sound kinda nice doesn't it
7:02 he made Eurylochus choose so the only one Odysseus knew for sure would be chosen is Eurylochus himself.
Wrong. Eury easily could have chosen to pass off his own. Ody had no way of knowing in that moment, and likely didn't care either cuz... Well, he couldn't afford to.
@colt1903 it wasn't 100% but it was highly likely. Why wouldn't he hold at least one?
@somedudewatchintv5297 Eury was going through the guilt death spiral from hell in that whole scene. It wouldn't be surprising if he passed off the torch because he didn't wanna risk upsetting his friend by somehow fuckin' up again
@@colt1903 seems unlikely, unless he's super clumsy he should feel competent to hold a torch regardless.
@somedudewatchintv5297 He also thought he was competent enough to know better than his captain when he said not to open the bag.
All I have to say is... Eurylychos chose the wrong saga to be plain stupid. From admitting that he opened the wind bag to mutiny to killing that darn cow. The dude was on a roll.
Also yes, all of them would have died if he didn't sacrifice 6 men
Only six of them would’ve died either way, but if he didn’t sacrifice a specific six then there was a chance Odysseus himself might be one of those who died and he wasn’t willing to take that chance
His whole crew was starving to death. They figured satiating their hunger and then appeasing to whatever god came after them would be a better end than starvation.
@@JessieBalls Scylla very well could have sunk the ship in search of six people. There's a reason that hiding below deck or something isn't an option.
@@Orion_44exactly.
@@jibjibs9401 that’s very true but I think the importance of the scene to the story was less Odysseus’s concern for the ship and more his concern for his own chances of reuniting with Penelope
The crew talks a big game about broken trust but they broke trust first. Eurylochus opened the bag. Ignoring Poseidon being an issue, it was Eurylochus' greed and distrust in Odysseus, unwarrented distrust, that led to the wind bag opening - the crew responsible for allowing it to happen. "If you want all the power, you must carry all the blame." Its no wonder Odysseus had Eurylochus choose who would die, unknowingly at the very least. He took the crews fate into his hands by opening the bag. He can choose the crews fate once more.
Also Thunder Bringer happens on the ship not on the island canonically. And it's Zeus. Gotta add, too, if anyone should take responsibility, its his crew. They had mutinied against him. He wasnt in charge when they slaughtered the cow. And this is what happened in the Odyssey - Zeus didn't give Odysseus a choice, he just killed the crew but spared Odysseus because he wasnt respondible.
Im also not sure what version of legendary you're going to watch but be careful, theres an important piece lf lore that some animatics dont include that contextualise the entire next saga, so be careful. Duvetbox's includes it, so if youre watching theirs (and i hope you do) it should give you everything you need to know in animatic and in the closed captions.
Eurylochus was distrustful of the wind god and Odysseus, he wasn’t greedy. He wanted to know what was in the bag, as did the rest of the crew. They were hesitant about involving the wind god but Odysseus had already made up his mind and so they were anxious to see what happened when he returned with a bag. Remember the wind god sent the winions down to spread a rumour that the bag held treasure and when the crew asked Odysseus he brushed them off and then refused to interact with anyone for nine days and nights while clutching the bag tight. If you were a member of the crew wouldn’t you also grow curious? To the crew Odysseus seemed like a man possessed. The wind god wanted the crew to open the bag from the start, it was all a game for him.
Odysseus was being cruel when he made Eurylochus choose people to hold the torches. He wanted to make his second in command suffer and die to Scylla. Eurylochus made a mistake that got most of the men killed. He regretted his choice and has been trying to confess since the moment they arrived on Circe’s island as the guilt was slowly killing him. Odysseus on the other hand would’ve never admitted the truth to the crew after Scylla if Eurylochus had been eaten by her. He wouldn’t care as long as he made it home. By this point all the crew was to Odysseus were tools for him to use and dispose of to achieve his goal.
Odysseus didn't brush his crew off. He told them what was in the bag, what was at stake, but Eurylochus didn't trust him enough. One bad encounter soured his entire mood on Odysseus, and, for that, 557 men died. And, no. Aeolus didn't necessarily want the bag opened - it's very likely this was a test or simply part of the game. Odysseus could have succeeded but it was up to how he and his crew dealt with the situation.
Odysseus wouldn't need to sacrifice his own crew if Eurylochus hadn't opened the bag. Six needed to die if they had any chance, and if Eurylochus is gonna be the type to sabotage and overrule his king and captain, he can be the one to choose. Guilt doesn't change the fact that Eurylochus betrayed Odysseus and got countless killed. "Mistake"? He was told what was in that bag and he did it anyway. And, no. Odysseus doesn't want to sacrifice his crew. He doesn't want any more of his crew to die. However, if killing six saves the rest, he'd still do it. That's why he tried to save his crew at the end of Mutiny. He didn't want them to die, but they keep on putting him in positions where he must make sacrifices for the rest. And when it comes down to it, of course he chose to sacrifice the rest of his men. He shouldn't be punished for his own crew's stupidity. They killed the cow, they die for the cow. Easy as.
@@zenithstrikerz1720 I wouldn't even put the 550 on Eurylochus. Poseidon was coming regardless and if he found them at home the place would have probably drowned.
@ Eurylochus tried to talk to Odysseus in private at the start of Full Speed Ahead, Odysseus brushed off his concerns and followed Polites advice instead. That led them to Polyphemus, Eurylochus and the crew wanted to kill the cyclops but Odysseus preferred to let his best friends murderer live, as they go to leave Odysseus is stopped by Athena (goddess of wisdom and his mentor) who tells him to end Polyphemus there and then. Odysseus refuses and then tells the cyclops who he is and where he’s going.
If they would’ve just left then Odysseus and the crew would be fine but instead Odysseus chooses to refuse his mentors advice which essentially doomed the whole crew. Polyphemus took Odysseus’ name to Poseidon, Poseidon created the storm and started hunting Odysseus down. Even if the wind bag remained closed Poseidon knew who he was after and where Odysseus was going. The second he revealed his name the crew were as good as dead thanks to Odysseus.
Odysseus always meant to sacrifice six men from the moment that the sirens said about Scylla. Odysseus never told the crew about Scylla or her cost, he never planned on leaving it up to chance as he was desperate enough to throw all his mens lives away so he could make it home. He admits in Mutiny “I need to get home” when he’s tied to the statue of Helios before trying to appeal to the crew by saying “we can get home”. After monster he was willing to throw everything away so he could get home safe and sound because he became so paranoid by what the prophet said.
Everyone talk about Eurylochus disobeying Odysseus but most seem to forget about Odysseus disobeying Athena; his patron godess, his mentor, the one who taught him since he was a child and guided him trough ten years of war withought losing a single man. Feels like a pretty big double standard on the part of the community, especially when you consider that said disobedience was why they needed the windbag in the first place.
Odysseus and Eurylochus are equally responsible. And the crew didn't do anything wrong until the cows. They wanted to know what was in the bag sure, but they didn't open it.
In fairness to Eury and the crew, their choices were possibly die to a god or definitely die of starvation...
Not gonna lie, I'd rather get struck down by lightning than slowly die with agonizing hunger pains.
The way I RAN here. I love your reaction to this series. Especially the way you try put yourself in Ody's shoes. This musical brings out so many emotions. can't wait for the next saga!
I find the downplaying of the crew to be really unfair. I think Jorge made the parallels between the Ody and Eury pretty clear with the Eury using the "I'm just a man" line before attempting to slaughter the cow. Odysseus might be their king and captain but beyond all that, they're all "just a man".
The percussion in Thunder Bringer is so perfectly thunderous.
*boom boom boom boom CLAP!*
*boom boom boom boom CLAP!*
Eurylochus and the crew were starving to death. They lost any hope of getting home after witnessing Odysseus sacrifice the troops and just wanted to die swiftly, at the hand of a god instead of starving to death. Die slow or die swift, those were the options they had left.
Also Odysseus is the reason they are not home. He didn’t have to tell the Cyclops who they were, his mentor was telling him to end it by killing the Cyclops yet he chose to reveal his name as they got away. Everything after that was caused by Poseidon who was trying to get at Odysseus.
Scylla killed six men, yes Odysseus did know but his crew didn't and yes the 6 men were kinda like a sacrifice in exchange to safely passing Scylla's lair, he kinda didn't have a choice ^^
For those who say he could have sacrificed sirens instead of men NO he couldn't as Scylla considers other monsters her siblings and doesn't eat them.
He did have a choice. He could have taken the risk along with his men. Instead, he picked six people to die so that he wouldn't.
I could also think of a few ways he could have gotten trough Scylla's lair withought loosing anyone but that's just speculations.
@@yoannbelleville7763 then what? he gets picked off what then second in comand who disregarded his captian and opened the bag, who was willing to leave 49 men behind on circes island, the one who not only was the one who said the gods were dangerous but killed a cow on an island with the statue of a god over looking it
@@1nn3r3V1L 1 : chances are Odysseus wouldn't have died anyway. There are still around 30 people left among the crew. Statistically speaking, he would have taken less risk by not marking six of his men for death than he did by losing the trust of the entire crew.
2 : People keep complainning about Eurylochus openning the windbag while convenientely forgetting why they needed that bag in the first place. He may have disobeyed his captain/king but Odysseus disobeyed his patron godess/mentor who not only taught him since he was a child but guided him trough 10 years of war withought losing a single man. Then, he told the same creature who killed his men who he was and were he lived (again, in spite of Athena's warning). How is that any less idiotic ?
3 : leaving a few men for dead (not 49. I'm not sure where you got that number considering that there weren't even that many of them left at that point) because you can't see any realistic way to save them withought Hermes exe machina doesn't compare to actively sacrificing six men to save your own skin.
4 : Had Eurylochus been given the same choice than Odysseus, helikely would have died instead the crew so even if he still killed the cow, there's a chance they would have survived. We can't be sure of course but the emphasis put on his attachement to them troughout the thunder saga suggest that he would.
I don’t think you understand that, even if that’s true and that there is LITERALLY no other way, you have got to look from the perspective of the crew. You just saw your captain, KING, who didn’t lose a single man in a 10 year war, willingly sacrifice 6 of his men, which at this point (and Eurylocus points this out) are probably some of your best friends. If you’re a crew member, that could’ve been you. And you know that. What if he needs to sacrifice more people? Do you wait until that happens and then hope it’s not you he (and he alone) picks? No. Mutinee is pretty much the best choice you have for your own survival as a crew member. And even AFTER the mutinee, they still keep him alive. They even bandage his wounds. A vast majority of mutineers would not give such consideration.
@@yoannbelleville7763I don't get your 2nd point, what do you mean by bag's purpose? Also on your 4th point, by far Eurylochus's mistakes have led to more of the crew dying than Odysseus choices. He is the reason only 1 ship was left, and by the end of his life he was the reason that last ship was stricken by Zeus's lightning
Notice how phantom Penelope is in yellow, which is Zeus' color. I wouldn't put it past him to use her to manipulate Odysseus. After all, he did it in the Troy saga.
Edit: As someone has probably pointed out, this particular Thunderbringer animatic is not necessarily canon in that Odysseus and his crew are actually on a boat when this happens. So the ship is destroyed, and Odysseus is last seen in the water. The next saga is NOT from Odysseus' POV. Please keep that in mind.
Also, in any story it's always darkest before dawn.
Big thing to know (before I watch and probably comment more): Neal's animation has one VERY important mistake. Ody and his crew were out on the sea when Zeus comes to them so when he blasts them with lightning the ship gets destroyed and Ody falls into the sea.
Apologies, kinda long.
Edits: Scylla is kinda like the Greek Kraken, not the best comparison but they fill a similar niche. In lore Poseidon isn't 'afraid' of Scylla, from Scylla's lair you can see Charybdis (another Grecian sea monster) who happens to be his daughter and whom has been cursed by Zeus so going to that area is painful to Poseidon... seeing the daughter cursed because she helped him, a daughter he can never help.
Yes they would likely have all died if they didn't do the sacrifice, Scylla and Chary destroy any and all ships that go near them but Scylla can be placated... by filling her multiple mouths with food. So it was either loose everyone or sacrifice 6 men.
The crew member that stabs Odysseus is named Perimedes, he originally had a song where he (while drunk) says he'd have easily yeeted the baby off the tower cuz he doesn't love anyone. He's also the guy in "Keep your friends close" who tells Ody to open the bag.
And with that cow Eury has become responsible for like 95% of the crew's deaths, yes most of those were an 'accident' but it was easily one of the dumbest things ever. "My Captain/King/Brother-in-law went to the Wind God and the all but supernatural storm vanished! HE claimed the bag held the storm but some random winions said it was treasure! I HAD to know if they were telling the truth!"
Fun Fact: Zeus need no introduction 1 Thunder IS his introduction and 2... he's the god of Judgment and they just did a bad, of course he's the one that will deliver the punishment.
Luke (Holt) has a glorious voice...
Fun Fact 2: Penelope's instrument is the Viola, it was absent in Suffering but present here...
one of my favorite reactors. Taking the story seriously, actually processing whats happening (mostly)... Love how you understood the crews perspective of Scylla/Mutiny. Also, when they killed the cows Eury says they're starving and he's given up on making it home- they still might not have all made it all the way to Ithaca.
14:36 In this situation they can eather die of starvation slowly and painfully, or take the risk of killing the cattle and angering the gods, in eather case they will die.
Dieing in a split second atomized by a devine thunderbolt shure beats several days of pain and desparation as your body slowly stops functioning.
I really love you reactions to this show!! I have been following your channel for a while now and was so exited when i saw that you reacted to the first song of epic. I love your emotional and honest reaction to every song.
Something to know about the next song (Legendary) is that the character that sings is Telemachos and not a young version of Ody (I'm sure that you could have figured that out as well but some people that didnt know the story got confused (especally because their voices sound kind of similar)).
I told you last reaction that these 3 songs would be the true Suffering
5:14 this has got to be the best reaction to Scylla I have ever seen and I have watched a few reactions
Ody did not know he KNEW that Scylla had a cost 6 lives OR the entire crew as they moved through the dark SO he said “light up 6 torches” not picking who will die but leaving it to fate as to what 6 crew members would be sacrificed so the rest of the crew could live
for future context jay intended to have them all on the boat in thunder bringer which would then be destroyed with ody being cast into the water at the end which sets up for the next saga. I do love neals zeus and the whole animation is beautifully donw
7:18 only 6 died, and yes, he wanted eury to grab one, but worst than that “eurilicus, light up 6 torches” that comand make Euri, not odyseus, to be the one picking who will died, its not only odiseus the one who will feel tguilt for their death
Odysseus and Eurylochus are equally responsible for their misadventures.
One disobeyed his patron godess by refusing to kill a deadly foe and then gave said foe his name, drawing Poseidon's hire.
The other disobeyed his captain and king by openning the windbag.
They mirror eachother in their mistakes while the crew pay the price.
For Scylla, she has six heads and she can't attack when her mouths are full. So if six men died, the others could escape. I think that's a fair trade, especially considering it's the first time Ody's outright scarified someone.
And yes Zeus is the one singing Thunder Bringer ^^
I mean... Helos (the Sun God) was asking Zeus to kill the crew. Zeus was just fucking with Odysseus along the way. That why he conjured the illusion of Odysseus's wife (colored in the color of Zeus's lightning) - and to really twist the knife had her repeat the lines of the Siren.
It was Odysseus's choice as much as anyone gets a choice around Zeus. It wouldn't have ended well for anyone if Odysseus hadn't chosen the way Zeus wanted him to.
The legend of Scylla is basically that she is a monster in the cliffs near a lethal whirlpool. You either lose your ship to the whirlpool, lose 6 men (one for each head) by rushing through, or try to fight and all die. "Scylla has a cost" as it was said in suffering. Not a risk, a COST. But it's the only way home so it's sac 6 men or they all die on the run from Wet Hades.
Don’t forget, Odysseus mentioned Scylla had a cost. That cost being feeding the heads of Scylla in exchange for safe passage. As for who was chosen, it wasn’t Ody who did so technically. He told Eurylochus to light up the torches and likely figured he’d hand them out to the ones to helped him with the wind bag. After hearing Eury was part of the whole thing, Ody wanted to get rid of those most likely to oppose him. Or at least that’s my leading theory.
If I remember right, Jay did confirm that Ody purposefully told Eurylochus to light those torches, assuming that Eury would be holding one.......
24 secs ago
One thing worth pointing out for context as you continue to the next saga: the "Thunder Bringer" animatic you watched took some artistic liberty, the canon visual Jay streamed in his Livestream shows Odysseus falling in the water. In fact at the end of "Mutiny" he talks about rowing faster, so they were in the middle of the ocean at that point when Zeus struck them!
In the OG Odyssey, or at least in one of the tellings of it, iirc, the cow murder was very much Eury and the Crew choosing to commit suicide via Godly Retribution as opposed to starving to death.
Here it seems very much a case of hunger clouding the mind, as almost immediately afterwards when shit hits the fan and Ody yells at him, Eury seems confused like he's only just realizing the actual weight of what he's done.
YES! YEESSSSSS!!!! You're one of the few reactors who picked up on what happened in Scylla on the first go. Love that so much. Also love the emotion you're showing.
I'mma sound like a villain, but thank you for suffering for us. It really makes these reactions special.
Quick note about the lyrics: Scylla could be argued to be talking directly to Odysseus in her song. She says, “Deep down, we are the same you and I…. “We only care for ourselves…” like the gods and just about every other powerful being in this story are trying to teach/convince Odysseus that he needs to be more selfish. (His men were, after all, when killing the Sun God’s cow and when opening the bag and when entering Circe’s lair.)
Moral or not, I make the argument that whether or not Odysseus willingly chose to sacrifice 6 men doesn’t matter, because more than 6 would’ve died if he didn’t light the torches. And in my opinion, Eurylocchus has no right to complain about sacrificing 6 men, when he is indirectly responsible for them not making it home and which led to Poseidon killing 550+ crewmembers.
I’m curious how other people view the situation morally, (as it’s portrayed here, not as it actually happened in the original Odyssey).
@@jorgemm859 yeah Poseidon would have *never* figured out where ody is right? It's not like Ody revealed where he lives and his status as a king. Also, there's nothing in the source material that Scylla could have killed more than six men. In the Odyssey six random men are plucked out. Odysseus gave the six torches so he could save his own ass. That's the difference between Eury and Ody. Eury never intentionally killed the people. If anything Ody put him in that kind of position. He threatened him in Luck Runs Out and the Winions of course. Then he sent him on a recon in Circe's island. Eury was right to leave those men because if Hermes hadn't intervened, Ody would 100% be dead
Came here for the expressions... Scylla-shock, check... Mutiny-stunned and sad, check- started a bit early, since you understood Odysseus' actions... "I was convinced they were all about to die on that island!" Um, wait...3-ish minutes? Thunder Bringer- despair, wonderful. I am honestly impressed that they made him as imposing and authoritative and as sleazy as they did at the same time.
Anyway, the thing I like most about Mutiny is the Eury is absolutely right about Odysseus' actions- in every other conflict, he has come up with quick, effective, and insightful tactics that might not have saved everyone, but certainly kept some people alive. In Scylla, he doesn't say anything- because he's already decided on the strategy of sacrifice. And because of that, when he finally, desperately needs the crew to trust his decisions... they don't.
Now I really can't wait for the Wisdom saga! Legendary, ho!
Eurylochus by the end of Mutiny basically admits he's suicidal. He see's his options as either all of the men slowly rotting away, or taking a risk and getting struck down quicker.
Remeber that Odysseus doesnt have the emotional history with his son as he does with Penelope. His son was between a newborn and a year when he left for war. His son is now about 13 at this moment in the story.
In the book its not in chronological order so we start where the next saga starts then go back to leaving the war.
Also as much as i love this version of thunder bringer it does take place out at sea. (Might help a bit with the next version).
Some stories says the gods have beef as the greeks destroyed the yemples to the gods when they deatroyed troy. The templea at troy that is
Ody didn’t have much of a choice. It was either they fight and die, or he sacrifice one person to each head so that the rest could get out unscathed. Sooo if he didn’t a lot more would have died, or maybe all of them. He did what he could to ensure the safety as many as possible.
Also, yeah, that’s Zues. The reason he shows up is because Helios (the god of the sun) was mad that Ody’s crew killed one of his cows. He went to Zeus and threatened to take the sun to the underworld if he didn’t do something about the cow incident.
Eurylochus makes dumb choices, but he has never secretly plotted the deaths of their own crew members
Even with Circe, he was right that they had no way to defeat her and get their men back, if it wasn't for the random intervention of a literal god
The change from "I need to get home" to "We can get home" gets me every damn time
In the original poems the crew had been stuck there for months. At this point Odysseus was in the mountains or something I forget. Either way Eurylochus decided a quick death by god was better than a slow death by starvation so they sacrificed the cows to the gods and ate them, hoping for the best.
The next saga (the Wisdom Saga) consists of 5 songs and I'd recommend splitting them up like this, with the first 3 together and the last 2 together:
1 Legendary
2 Little Wolf
3 We'll Be Fine
-------
4 Love in Paradise
5 God Games
Fun fact for those who do not know Luke Holt who voices Zeus will randomly slip into his Zeus voice when hes streaming and playing Stardew Valley and other games
Something hit me the other day like a ton of bricks, and I was reminded of it when you pointed out he sees Penelope, "the version that was presented to him by the Sirens." Sirens were known to sing men to their doom, luring them from their ship by showing them their hearts greatest desire. For Odysseus, he sees getting to his wife and being with her as what will make all this suffering bearable, being in her arms will take all the suffering away.
And while he loves and wants to see Telemachus, his wife has always come first
youre the only reactor ive seen understand the torches sacrifice without prior knowledge and before its explained in mutiny. although u cant call starving ppl idiots, starvation is near impossible to bear. and u cant really hold the whole crew as wrong prior to mutiny since its revealed eurylochus alone opened the bag
So now the fandom has dry Poseidon and wet Hades xD
My theory: after Eurylochus made his confession... Odysseus knew what he was doing when he asked HIM to light up the torches
one of my favorite reactions to these songs! you picked up on so many details right away, and i'm right there with you on the emotional toll of this saga. it really is gutpunch after gutpunch.
'now he's just stranded on the sun god's island?' worth noting that canonically they were onboard the ship during thunderbringer. at the end of this saga we leave odysseus stranded in the middle of the ocean :)
In most Thunder Bringer animatics, Zeus hurls down a thunderbolt at the ship/crew. In Neal's, he casually drops it like it's nothing. Perfectly sums up the attitude of a Zeus that sees everything as being for his own amusement, as he will in God Games.
i like to think that in thunder bringer the penelope odysseus sees is an illusion from zeus himself.
16:20 same LMAO 😭😭😭😭😂
Small note that according to the official livestream animatics of Thunder Bringer, where they were all smited by Zeus while on their ship sailing away from the island, that the song ends with Odysseus falling and sinking into the water!
I love how personal you are with your reactions. Not afraid to be emotional, or speak from the heart.
Every time I see thunder bringer I always laugh at the beginning because Zeus is always making things a little sexual 😂😂😂😂😂 by the way I don't know much about Zeus but basically he's basically a horndog and really arrogant 😂
One important thing you need to know, in this animatic for the “Thunderbringer” the artist did things a little differently
But if you remember the previous song they did get on the the boat and started rowing so when Zeus comes in they’re not on an island they’re on a boat
I would recommend to watch another one to see what happens at the end so you can connect things better for the next Saga
In I’m Just a Man, Odysseus says “deep down, I would trade the world to see my son and wife” and it’s cool to see that echoed by Scylla in the first half of her song. These three songs are where we find out just how much he truly meant that.
So i just wanna say because few people seem to realize this but the men knew what might happen if they killed the cows but they were so hungry and suffering to the point that theyd risk it just for some food they are truly suffering from fatigue of 13 years away from home and have given up hope "Ody were never gonna get to make it home" it was food now death later or death now
A little thing to note is that Thunderbringer is meant to take place on a ship as the crew were sailing away from the Sun Gods island so when Zeus kills the crew he also throws Odysseus into the ocean.
i LOVE your reflection of 'everything he did is the same call i would make', makes me think the point is how easy it is for a man to become a monster.
I'm pretty sure when Ody told Eurylocus to light 6 torches he knew he needed 6 men to die but telling Eurylocus to do it means after passing the other 5 out Eurylocus would be holding one, so he subconsciously tried killing Eurylocus.
Luke Holt, voice of Zeus, is trained in opera singing if I remember right. He is also the only god to not have his name brought up, because as Jorge said: He doesn't need that. Everybody knows who he is.
One thing I find very fascinating about one difference from the various Zeus' and Neal's is that end of the song, most of them *throw* the lightning, it's an active *strike*. Neal's Zeus? He makes the lightning ball, and then just tips his hand. Dropping it *casually* onto the crew, no effort whatsoever. Just a careless little tip of a gods hand, and 38 men were gone in a literal flash.
Oh, and about Ody seemingly not thinking about his kid... the little melody at the end of Thunderbringer is called "Telemachus' Lullaby". So, yeah. Ody might have said "her", but he was definitely thinking "them".
A fun thing to note about thunder bringer, but the reason Zeus doesn't have his name said by anyone unlike any of the other gods is to illustrate that he needs no introduction as THE king of the gods. also, Penelope's voice drowns out the voice of his own crew. loving your reactions to this series so far, you never dissapoint!
also, small recommendation, but for the next couple of sagas you should see if you can find the animatics/animations that were used in the livestreams the creator did when releasing the sagas.
I have to say that the live stream Scylla that is more faithfull to how she really looks is even SCARIER. I TOTALLY reccomnd looking up what she looks like.
this came out well timed, and i see neal illustrators thunder bringer nice
for the wisdom saga, i vote either just anni flama, or anni first and then neals, neals is amazing but anni just feels like they represented the god games so well
it was 6 men or all men, that is the deal when you travel to her lair. She is blind, but she sees light, if all 6 of her heads are fed, she will let your ship pass through. If she gets none, she will sink the entire ship and eat all of them. It was their only way back home.
In the original tale, Scylla and Charybdis inhabited the same strait (most likely the Strait of Messina). The choice was either sail too close to Charybdis and lose all or sail too close to Scylla and lose only six men. In this adaptation, it is most likely that the results would have been the same: either lose all in darkness or light up six torches (one for each head) and lose only six men. Fun fact: Scylla was originally a nymph who fell in love with the sea-god Glaucus. Unfortunately for Scylla, Circe (the same Circe from the Circe Saga) was also in love with Glaucus and was envious that Glaucus favored Scylla over her and so she turned Scylla into a monster while she was bathing in the sea.
In the original tale of The Odyssey, the men knew not to hurt any of the cattle on the island of Helios. However, they were pretty much stranded on the island for months due to unfavorable winds and storm. Odysseus's men slaughtered some of the choice cattle to offer as sacrifices to gain favorable winds as well as food. Enraged, Helios threatened to never rise over the earth again unless those responsible were dealt with. Zeus agreed to destroy Odysseus's men to ensure that the natural order of night and day was maintained, so either way Odysseus's men were doomed to die when they laid hands on Helios's cattle.
You can trace all of Odysseus's woe back to the oath that the Aegean nobles made when Helen married Menelaus to protect the sanctity of that marriage and the honor of the house of Atreides (which was made of Menelaus king of Sparta and his brother Agamemnon). The one who came up with the idea of that oath: Odysseus since he understood that when Helen chose who she would marry she would most likely choose Menelaus as he was the most handsome and strongest of the lords who assembled to vie for her hand. He saw it as a good way of ensuring that the lords would not come together to plot against whoever she chose to be her husband since Menelaus was brother to Agamemnon who was referred to as "the king of kings" in a lot of accounts. You can also blame Eris, goddess of discord for the golden apple that caused the argument of which goddess was the most beautiful among Hera, Athena, and Aphrodite that resulted in the judgment of Paris that helped to lead to the Trojan War. Even Heracles (aka Hercules) has some blame because when he attacked Troy after his labors he took one of Priam's sisters as hostage and Priam's desire to bring his sister back to Ilium was what led to the envoy led by Paris going to Sparta.
The vast majority of Greek mythology is interconnected in some way and it is a case of ripples becoming tidal waves.
"fun" fact about Mutiny and thunder bringer, in the original version when the crew killed the cow Helios went to Zeus and told him that if he didn't do something about it he was going to put the sun into the underworld and make humanity live in darkness. So Zeus, who hadn't really cared was like "okay, calm down, ill handle it." and that's why he punished Odysseus and his crew.
"Scylla" is the only song that, when I lock in, gives me shivers and chills.
SOME CONTEX THAT GETS LOST IN THE THINDERBRINGER ANIMATIC: In the actual cannon of Epic they were on a boat in the ocean and Zeus also destroys the boat when killing the crew leaving odysseys on his own in the middle of the ocean, its not too important, but does provide some context for some future songs. basically he's not on the sun god island
Brilliant reaction as always. Its always amazing to see how you react and feel with each new song. Of the people I've watched react to Scylla you are one of the few who picked up on the 6 sacrifices so quickly. I also kept having myself reacting to your comments saying just wait till the next song/line hahaha. I can't wait to see how you feel about the next Saga.
A little side note btw; in the official animatic of Thunder Bringer Odysseus and his crew were on the ship when Zeus shows up and does his thing. So when it ends Ody has fallen into the sea with his ship destroyed and slowly sinks down as the animatic ends. I mention this because of a future song.
His comment about Ody telling his crew to not go near the cliff… when you know you know 🙈