Listening from St. George utah Loved the motorcycle story Will never forget this story And shared it with my sons and my son in law(who is a new bishop) And he has asked me about disciplining and teaching children ! Loved learning today especially .
I love that John commented on Jack being so kind and gracious while on the cruise. I remember interrupting John and his daughter at a baseball game to say hi and talk about Jesus for a minute and how kind and gracious you were to me, thank you. I will never forget that.
As you say in most of your podcasts to let you know where we are listening from. I’m from Adelaide Australia and I’d say over the last 3 yrs I’ve only missed a handful of episodes. I listen when I’m at work in the morning by myself at 3:30/4am making donuts. I love that time of day when it’s quiet. I’ve had some very profound spiritual moments as thoughts and inspiration has come while listening to your podcasts. I have gained insights into how you and the other guests look into the scriptures and not just at. One of the parts of my day I look forward to. Thank you for all your work.
John bytheway is in our dear friends ward He has been a magnificently part of their hard life! I got really sick the day I had a chance to go to hear bishop bytheway! I was in town when a fire about started at his house Oops it did start -: 3 fire trucks showed up!
My husband and I were just listening to Prof Welch talk about the New Era article left in missionary apartments all over the world. My husband remembers reading that article when he was a missionary in the Hamburg, Germany mission in 1978 ish! It really had a great effect on him. He had joined the church just a couple of years before and then prepared for a mission. A convert missionary! Thank you for all this wonderful information we get to learn about through your broadcast. We appreciate it so much - more than you can realize.
7 months pregnant with my 5th child. Putting up sweet freezer corn in Washington State! Thanks for your great insights and helping me be able to teach my children the living gospel better!
I live in Sammamish, Wa currently in my garden weeding and watering and also listening to this amazing episode! We are so lucky to live in this era where we can enjoy listening to such knowledge!
Grateful for the discussion on chiasmus patterns. I recall years and years ago learning in high school about these writing techniques. It is so touching being reminded of them in the scriptures, how powerfully they can bring a specific message to our hearts so it stays with us more
Thank you Hank and John for “Follow Him”! You fellows are awesome! Many thanks to Brother Welch for sharing his scholarship with the entire Church, and for relating his wonderful experience from Brother Nibley. I used to see him walking around campus while at BYU, often talking to basketball great, Kresimer Cosic! Talk about a height difference!
I find this so fascinating. Chiasmus means “crossing” or “to cross.” The structure focuses us on the center most important element… typically Jesus. The word temple derives from Greek “temenos” meaning to cut or cross. The purpose of the temple the center holy of holies where God dwells. The word covenant was anciently made by “cutting” the covenant. Ritually they could “cut” an animal. The purpose of the covenant was to center and remember God’s sacrifice. Christ died on the cross thus we get the word “crisscross” aka “Christ-cross.” The center of the cross pointing to Jesus. Chiasmus - “crossing” - centered on Jesus Temple - “to cut” or “to cross” - centered on Jesus Covenant - “to cut a covenant” - centered on Jesus Cross - “criss-cross” - centered on Jesus So much symbolism of crossing, cutting, focusing on the center, the intersection which is always Jesus!
Thank-you Bro Welsh for sharing your story about Hugh Nibley! However, I want to explain that my Uncle Hugh was not given over to hyperbole, he was as straight forward as they come and unfailingly honest. If he gushed it was because he understood, at a much deeper level than most, what was truly important in the grand scheme of things. What you discovered about the Book of Mormon meant that many more people were going to understand its legitimate place among God-given scripture, which could lead more people onto the path that led back home to Him! Nothing brought him more joy!!
Hank my dad had kidney stones one so big it has to be blasted - his Dr told him to put lemons and their juice in his water and drink lots of water - he did start to do that and he didn’t have any more kidney stones - I am listening from Perry Utah - where Maddox is - thank you for all your amazing podcasts - I teach the 16-17 year old Sunday School class and these podcasts help so much in preparing for those lessons ❤
Brother, Professor Welch, your purity and goodness reach the depth of my hungering soul to have our Lord's words to become my ways, and His ways my ways. I know angels sit beside you in heavenly glory sing songs of praise to you as you glorify our Master. If you could see into my heart, you could feel the depth of my gratitude to you and to all that teach CFM.
Thank you so much for this podcast about Chiasmus! 52 years ago my life was changed when I read Brother Welch's Feb 1972 article in Korea. Since that time I have found another important record that has influenced my life for the good. I found out why Alma left the land and the rest of the story of Coriantion and Isabel! Where did Samuel the Lamanite come from? What happened to Hagoth? Where did these 30k-50k people go listed in Alma 63:4-6. Would you like to read the Book of Samuel the Lamanite? Do you know why Moroni finishes his father’s record and has nothing much to say and then ends up writing 10 chapters of his own? And why the Book of Ether is between those two records? This record is the blueprint for helping to bring Zion. Record Overview of this righteous people that moved northward found recorded in the BofM. The Nemenhah Record is a history that begins with Hagoth. Hagoth was the shipbuilder referenced in only a few scripture verses. Around 55 years before Christ’s birth, Hagoth led a sizeable group of people into the North country, or what we know today as North America. Instead of these people following the name tradition of calling themselves either Nephites or Lamanites or any manner of -ites, they called themselves Nemenhah which means “The People” or more accurately “The People guided by the Holy Ghost.” This record follows the descendants of Hagoth for nearly 1600 years, detailing many incredible and heartbreaking events, up until the time when the Gentiles spread across the Americas and drove the native people from their lands. Within this timeframe, we hear from great prophets such as Samuel the Lamanite, Corianton (son of Alma), Moroni (the last Nephite prophet), women who were prophetesses, the Three Nephites, and many, many more. THERE ARE ALSO DETAILED ACCOUNTS OF JESUS CHRIST VISITING TWO SEPARATE GROUPS OF PEOPLE AND TEACHING THEM HIS DOCTRINE. The first appearance was to a people in the Western part of the country in a city called Mentinah, and the second visit was to the Northeastern part of the country, where Corianton and his people lived. Some of the overarching principles taught are the four core pillars or laws: The Pillar of Knowledge and Obedience, The Pillar of Sacrifice, The Pillar of Virtue, and The Pillar of Consecration. All of these were taught within the home to their children from a very young age. Living these principles, as taught in purity, truly was an endowment unto them. This often culminated in them being taught personally by angels and even the Savior upon The Way. Receiving the gift of the Second Comforter, even a personal witness of Christ is taught throughout. And by far, one of the most oft-repeated principles is seeking wisdom and knowledge through the gift of the Holy Ghost. I know of no record that repeats this invitation more frequently and clearly. Joseph admonished us to seek after good things in the 13th Article of Faith. The workings of the Holy Ghost in our lives are mentioned in this spiritual record hundreds of times. The Peacemaker or the Savior's name is mentioned 2672 times in this book. We have been promised more records. With that same zeal, I felt when Brother Welsh introduced the Chiamus 52 years ago this record is filled with light and love and is the blueprint for building Zion. ❤
I read about chiasmus in the New Era and thought it was neat, but it has taken listening to podcasts such as this to really understand the beauty of them .
Don't discount corianton...it also goes on to say that if all men were like unto Moroni the foundations of hell would be shaken. And then it Says the sons of Alma and of Mosiah were like unto Moroni. Corianton lived a wayward moment or a wayward life but based on that recommendation it seems he followed after his father in seeking redemption. They also sought him out to carry the records but he had left with Hagoth.
What a feast of an episode to listen to! Thank you to all of you for combining faith and scholarship so well. In the spirit of sharing cool insights with those I would consider to be much more well-versed than I, I want to point out how you guys referenced that Alma VERY likely read the words of Lehi and Nephi, since he directly quotes Lehi's experience in 1 Ne 1 and relates it to his own. I think it's also worth noting that he uses the phrase "caught hold" in describing that same experience for himself (see Alma 36:18). (Coincidentally, this falls exactly between the two references to Jesus Christ at the center of the chiasmus.) I find this so cool and relevant in the context of him referencing Lehi, because Lehi also uses this phrase ("caught hold") to describe one of the 4 groups of people in his vision of the Tree of Life (see 1 Ne 8:30). I think that if you consider it in this way, Alma is teaching his sons (more on that in the next paragraph) how to be part of that group of people - the group that partakes of the fruit and experiences the fulness of joy, and that changes the focus from what Alma did to what he hopes his sons (and each of us as the reader) will do. My second thought stems from a question that I hope Professor Welch could shed more light on. The question is this: how likely is it that Alma could recite a chiasmus such as the one found from memory? I ask this because I look at Alma 36-42 (along with Alma 35:16 and Alma 43:1) as instruction that Alma has written down, and is giving to all three of his sons together in the same room at the same time. I find your reference to the event that takes place between a father and 3 sons at passover to corroborate this as well, and that means that all 3 sons are present for the entirety of this discourse. I find this significant because then Alma is teaching all three of his sons about the fulness of the Gospel on both a microscopic level (his own) and a more macroscopic one, the lives of his 3 sons, weaving his own experience into the lives of each of his sons, which would be a powerful teaching experience for each son to not only see himself in his father, but also perhaps to see his brother, who he might have been less charitable towards (as brothers sometimes can be). If this is the case, and with it being Alma's final address, he is not only teaching his sons gospel principles that they can use to teach others when he is gone (i.e. how to connect with God), he is also teaching them how to be more unified amongst themselves (i.e. how to connect with your fellow man), which they seem to be hereafter. Anyways you (Professor Welch) mention that we need to read the stories of the 3 brothers as if they were connected, and I'm curious for both you (Professor Welch) and everyone else if you've thought of Alma 36-42 in this way, and if so, how it has changed these chapters for you? Cheers from Canada!
No, I think they said this chiasmus in Alma was discovered in 1969. The words of Alma 36 were in the Book of Mormon from the beginning, although the chapters and verses we have today were added later.
So I have a question for brother Welch having Alma's words in chiastic form does that mean he put them in that form or that Moroni I did it in the editing ? Just curious
![⭐ฮิตในTikTok!! ( มะมะมะหมูเด้ง MooDeng ) Ver. แดนซ์ ReMix BY [ ดีเจกิต รีมิกซ์ ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4noyAoMa7bQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Listening from St. George utah
Loved the motorcycle story
Will never forget this story And shared it with my sons and my son in law(who is a new bishop)
And he has asked me about disciplining and teaching children !
Loved learning today especially .
I love that John commented on Jack being so kind and gracious while on the cruise. I remember interrupting John and his daughter at a baseball game to say hi and talk about Jesus for a minute and how kind and gracious you were to me, thank you. I will never forget that.
As you say in most of your podcasts to let you know where we are listening from. I’m from Adelaide Australia and I’d say over the last 3 yrs I’ve only missed a handful of episodes. I listen when I’m at work in the morning by myself at 3:30/4am making donuts. I love that time of day when it’s quiet. I’ve had some very profound spiritual moments as thoughts and inspiration has come while listening to your podcasts. I have gained insights into how you and the other guests look into the scriptures and not just at. One of the parts of my day I look forward to. Thank you for all your work.
John bytheway is in our dear friends ward
He has been a magnificently part of their hard life!
I got really sick the day I had a chance to go to hear bishop bytheway!
I was in town when a fire about started at his house
Oops it did start -: 3 fire trucks showed up!
My husband and I were just listening to Prof Welch talk about the New Era article left in missionary apartments all over the world. My husband remembers reading that article when he was a missionary in the Hamburg, Germany mission in 1978 ish! It really had a great effect on him. He had joined the church just a couple of years before and then prepared for a mission. A convert missionary! Thank you for all this wonderful information we get to learn about through your broadcast. We appreciate it so much - more than you can realize.
7 months pregnant with my 5th child. Putting up sweet freezer corn in Washington State! Thanks for your great insights and helping me be able to teach my children the living gospel better!
God bless you, dear sister. 🙏💞🙏
That sweet corn is going to taste so good all year, especially at Thanksgiving. I can smell and taste your talent.
😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊
Oooo
I live in Sammamish, Wa currently in my garden weeding and watering and also listening to this amazing episode! We are so lucky to live in this era where we can enjoy listening to such knowledge!
Thank you, Dr. Welch, for your contributions to Book of Mormon scholarship. I’m dazzled by both the form and content of the Book of Mormon!
Grateful for the discussion on chiasmus patterns. I recall years and years ago learning in high school about these writing techniques. It is so touching being reminded of them in the scriptures, how powerfully they can bring a specific message to our hearts so it stays with us more
Thank you Hank and John for “Follow Him”! You fellows are awesome! Many thanks to Brother Welch for sharing his scholarship with the entire Church, and for relating his wonderful experience from Brother Nibley. I used to see him walking around campus while at BYU, often talking to basketball great, Kresimer Cosic! Talk about a height difference!
I find this so fascinating.
Chiasmus means “crossing” or “to cross.” The structure focuses us on the center most important element… typically Jesus.
The word temple derives from Greek “temenos” meaning to cut or cross. The purpose of the temple the center holy of holies where God dwells.
The word covenant was anciently made by “cutting” the covenant. Ritually they could “cut” an animal. The purpose of the covenant was to center and remember God’s sacrifice.
Christ died on the cross thus we get the word “crisscross” aka “Christ-cross.” The center of the cross pointing to Jesus.
Chiasmus - “crossing” - centered on Jesus
Temple - “to cut” or “to cross” - centered on Jesus
Covenant - “to cut a covenant” - centered on Jesus
Cross - “criss-cross” - centered on Jesus
So much symbolism of crossing, cutting, focusing on the center, the intersection which is always Jesus!
Wonderful! Thank you!❤
I remember when the brethren admonished us to read the actual scriptures rather than just books about them. Turning point!
This episode really is a revelation!! So cool to learn from the source of chasms in the Book of Mormon himself!! Mind blown!
Thank-you Bro Welsh for sharing your story about Hugh Nibley! However, I want to explain that my Uncle Hugh was not given over to hyperbole, he was as straight forward as they come and unfailingly honest. If he gushed it was because he understood, at a much deeper level than most, what was truly important in the grand scheme of things. What you discovered about the Book of Mormon meant that many more people were going to understand its legitimate place among God-given scripture, which could lead more people onto the path that led back home to Him! Nothing brought him more joy!!
Hank my dad had kidney stones one so big it has to be blasted - his Dr told him to put lemons and their juice in his water and drink lots of water - he did start to do that and he didn’t have any more kidney stones - I am listening from Perry Utah - where Maddox is - thank you for all your amazing podcasts - I teach the 16-17 year old Sunday School class and these podcasts help so much in preparing for those lessons ❤
Brother, Professor Welch, your purity and goodness reach the depth of my hungering soul to have our Lord's words to become my ways, and His ways my ways. I know angels sit beside you in heavenly glory sing songs of praise to you as you glorify our Master.
If you could see into my heart, you could feel the depth of my gratitude to you and to all that teach CFM.
Hank's introductions are definitely something i look forward to every week :D
I, too, feel warmed and welcomed by Hank and John, I consider them to be amongst my spiritual friend who just help me to feel hope.
This was so wonderful and I learned so much. I had never known!! Thank you!
Thank you,
Love bro John Welch!!!
Thank you so much for this podcast about Chiasmus! 52 years ago my life was changed when I read Brother Welch's Feb 1972 article in Korea. Since that time I have found another important record that has influenced my life for the good. I found out why Alma left the land and the rest of the story of Coriantion and Isabel! Where did Samuel the Lamanite come from? What happened to Hagoth? Where did these 30k-50k people go listed in Alma 63:4-6. Would you like to read the Book of Samuel the Lamanite? Do you know why Moroni finishes his father’s record and has nothing much to say and then ends up writing 10 chapters of his own? And why the Book of Ether is between those two records? This record is the blueprint for helping to bring Zion.
Record Overview of this righteous people that moved northward found recorded in the BofM.
The Nemenhah Record is a history that begins with Hagoth. Hagoth was the shipbuilder referenced in only a few scripture verses. Around 55 years before Christ’s birth, Hagoth led a sizeable group of people into the North country, or what we know today as North America. Instead of these people following the name tradition of calling themselves either Nephites or Lamanites or any manner of -ites, they called themselves Nemenhah which means “The People” or more accurately “The People guided by the Holy Ghost.”
This record follows the descendants of Hagoth for nearly 1600 years, detailing many incredible and heartbreaking events, up until the time when the Gentiles spread across the Americas and drove the native people from their lands. Within this timeframe, we hear from great prophets such as Samuel the Lamanite, Corianton (son of Alma), Moroni (the last Nephite prophet), women who were prophetesses, the Three Nephites, and many, many more. THERE ARE ALSO DETAILED ACCOUNTS OF JESUS CHRIST VISITING TWO SEPARATE GROUPS OF PEOPLE AND TEACHING THEM HIS DOCTRINE. The first appearance was to a people in the Western part of the country in a city called Mentinah, and the second visit was to the Northeastern part of the country, where Corianton and his people lived.
Some of the overarching principles taught are the four core pillars or laws: The Pillar of Knowledge and Obedience, The Pillar of Sacrifice, The Pillar of Virtue, and The Pillar of Consecration. All of these were taught within the home to their children from a very young age. Living these principles, as taught in purity, truly was an endowment unto them. This often culminated in them being taught personally by angels and even the Savior upon The Way. Receiving the gift of the Second Comforter, even a personal witness of Christ is taught throughout. And by far, one of the most oft-repeated principles is seeking wisdom and knowledge through the gift of the Holy Ghost. I know of no record that repeats this invitation more frequently and clearly.
Joseph admonished us to seek after good things in the 13th Article of Faith. The workings of the Holy Ghost in our lives are mentioned in this spiritual record hundreds of times. The Peacemaker or the Savior's name is mentioned 2672 times in this book.
We have been promised more records. With that same zeal, I felt when Brother Welsh introduced the Chiamus 52 years ago this record is filled with light and love and is the blueprint for building Zion. ❤
Thanks! 🎉
I read about chiasmus in the New Era and thought it was neat, but it has taken listening to podcasts such as this to really understand the beauty of them .
Listening from Poky Idaho. ❤️ I geek out about chiasmus!! I'm teaching Sunday school this week, and we will DEFINITELY be chatting about this!!
Listening on our road trip to the Upper Peninsula of Michigan
I love this chiasmus theory. It’s so very nerdy but cool at the same time.
Don't discount corianton...it also goes on to say that if all men were like unto Moroni the foundations of hell would be shaken. And then it Says the sons of Alma and of Mosiah were like unto Moroni. Corianton lived a wayward moment or a wayward life but based on that recommendation it seems he followed after his father in seeking redemption. They also sought him out to carry the records but he had left with Hagoth.
I wholeheartedly agree. His father and grandfather also went astray, but look at the mighty change in them!
I read that article in the Philippines!
What a feast of an episode to listen to! Thank you to all of you for combining faith and scholarship so well.
In the spirit of sharing cool insights with those I would consider to be much more well-versed than I, I want to point out how you guys referenced that Alma VERY likely read the words of Lehi and Nephi, since he directly quotes Lehi's experience in 1 Ne 1 and relates it to his own. I think it's also worth noting that he uses the phrase "caught hold" in describing that same experience for himself (see Alma 36:18). (Coincidentally, this falls exactly between the two references to Jesus Christ at the center of the chiasmus.) I find this so cool and relevant in the context of him referencing Lehi, because Lehi also uses this phrase ("caught hold") to describe one of the 4 groups of people in his vision of the Tree of Life (see 1 Ne 8:30). I think that if you consider it in this way, Alma is teaching his sons (more on that in the next paragraph) how to be part of that group of people - the group that partakes of the fruit and experiences the fulness of joy, and that changes the focus from what Alma did to what he hopes his sons (and each of us as the reader) will do.
My second thought stems from a question that I hope Professor Welch could shed more light on. The question is this: how likely is it that Alma could recite a chiasmus such as the one found from memory? I ask this because I look at Alma 36-42 (along with Alma 35:16 and Alma 43:1) as instruction that Alma has written down, and is giving to all three of his sons together in the same room at the same time. I find your reference to the event that takes place between a father and 3 sons at passover to corroborate this as well, and that means that all 3 sons are present for the entirety of this discourse. I find this significant because then Alma is teaching all three of his sons about the fulness of the Gospel on both a microscopic level (his own) and a more macroscopic one, the lives of his 3 sons, weaving his own experience into the lives of each of his sons, which would be a powerful teaching experience for each son to not only see himself in his father, but also perhaps to see his brother, who he might have been less charitable towards (as brothers sometimes can be). If this is the case, and with it being Alma's final address, he is not only teaching his sons gospel principles that they can use to teach others when he is gone (i.e. how to connect with God), he is also teaching them how to be more unified amongst themselves (i.e. how to connect with your fellow man), which they seem to be hereafter. Anyways you (Professor Welch) mention that we need to read the stories of the 3 brothers as if they were connected, and I'm curious for both you (Professor Welch) and everyone else if you've thought of Alma 36-42 in this way, and if so, how it has changed these chapters for you?
Cheers from Canada!
The girl on the motorcycle…did she make it??? Love the podcast and the guest, but could we get the Paul Harvey, “rest of the story??”
💙💙
Wait - Alma 36 wasn’t added until 1969? Did I hear that right? I can’t find anything about that.
No, I think they said this chiasmus in Alma was discovered in 1969. The words of Alma 36 were in the Book of Mormon from the beginning, although the chapters and verses we have today were added later.
I think Bro Welsh was saying that people hadn't paid to much attention to Alma 36 until 1969.
I believe he said “it wasn’t until 1969 that this was found.” Talking about the chiasmus. It’s at 25:08 he says it, if you want to go back. ❤
No, ya didn't hear that right
He was talking about reading the older version that wasn't organized into chapters and verses yet. It read like a regular book.
"Jack will stay in the box" in the box Jack will stay. You guys missed a golden opportunity. 😂
So I have a question for brother Welch having Alma's words in chiastic form does that mean he put them in that form or that Moroni I did it in the editing ? Just curious
❤❤
What happened to the girl can't imagine what kind of person would do such a terrible act
❤ 50:19
If you need a more contemporary example of chiastic structure, play "Going on a bear hunt' with a group of children.