13th Stepping in Alchoholics Anonymous : Personal experiences & prevention strategies
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 มี.ค. 2022
- Today, we’re talking about something called 13th Stepping.
In the good old days of AA, ie the times when every member of AA was largely white and middleclass, 13th stepping referred to folks who died sober, ie they took the 13th step, the one directly following the 12 th step to their grave.
But that’s not what what we are referring to here. We’re talking about 13th stepping as it is more commonly known today - ie individuals - male and female - who conduct predatory behaviour - sexually predatory behaviour - where they prey on newcomers or beginners or vulnerable members in AA.
This is a subject that needs to be discussed and confronted head-on.
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First I want to say I really appreciated this conversation and many of the solutions offered. So important. I wanted to throw out a piece of feedback. I noticed that there were only a few folks who spoke of personal experiences of 13th stepping, and one of them talked about being a newcomer and how there was harassment on zoom in the form of messages and comments during shares. She also spoke of getting involved with someone who sounded like one of the 12-step predators based on how he was hiding his many involvements with fellow women in the program. She mentioned not feeling safe to ever go to in-person meetings. I had the same experience of only going to online meetings, and it turned me off from ever wanting to meet people IRL. I felt the exact same way as her, like thank god I don’t have to physically meet these people. The programs are not safe. Not just 13th stepping in terms of harassment, but also patterns of stalking, abuse, and even trafficking and murder. It happens more often than people want to admit. I know it doesn’t reflect well on the programs to make such a statement. But many make the choice to leave (or only go online) because it is the best way to protect themselves. It is a completely valid choice. Someone else (not a newcomer) in Washington mentioned how her local meetings are too unsafe to make it to, that she goes to online meetings instead.
When I tried to speak out I was told “oh just stick with the women and you’ll be fine” as in, “it’s your fault for talking to a man, you should know better.” Seems to be the classic response. Subtle victim-blaming. The women with women and men with men solution is antiquated and does not solve the problem. It puts the burden on women to protect themselves by avoiding men, when in reality these perpetrators are skilled at what they do and will always find a vulnerable newcomer. It’s not the newcomer’s fault. It is also heteronormative and doesn’t account for how there can just as often be abuse in same-sex relations. Also this practice of, don’t date or socialize with the opposite sex until after one year, doesn’t address the issue either because people can still be preyed on even if they have time in the rooms. Newcomer or not, it is still wrong. The solution is to simply remove the predators rather than coaching someone how to look out for themselves better next time. That is condescending and just a bandaid for a deeper problem. If everyone knows that a certain guy is a creeper, instead of warning the new women to avoid him, why not just get him out of there?
I’ve heard so many victim-blaming stories of people being told “own your part” when they get the courage to speak. In other words, “find a way that you caused this.” Folks are brainwashed into doing an inventory to blame themselves, and/or making amends to their perpetrator. Total deflection. The perpetrators should be held responsible. Get the police involved to prevent further rapes and murders, simple as that.
My wife was 13th stepped. Destroyed my family. She was depressed, drinking daily, and new to AA. I had been pushing her to AA for years. One of the long term member suggested they get together to talk about her sobriety. She ended up cheating with the guy and left the family to be with him. Heartbreaking and predatory. I'm not passing judgement but no one in the group said or did anything about it. I'm only four months into this disaster but I have a feeling it is not going to end well for anyone involved.
I am 13 days into it myself.
Same story
20years older then her started with inappropriate comments 3 months into her sobriety. Eventually inappropriate touching she said no. She agreed to do her 5th step with him. Divulging everything to him. And that was all he needed to rope her in make her feel lived and special. I found out and confronted her she defended him. Made me sick. He blamed her for everything and she now sees what he is. And wants to make it work. I don't know what to do. I still care about her but WTF.
Goodluck man I feel you. Hurting also
Stay strong my friend. The Oltimers in AA are some of the most sickest assholes you could ever wish to come across. Bill Wilson himself was some piece of work!!
Same thing happened to me, on a smaller scale.
When I joined, there was a rather guru like figure who I really looked up to. My girlfriend joined soon after me. Within three weeks of her being there, he invited her out to talk about childhood trauma (right), and proceeded to kiss her and offer an open relationship.
I want to thank you all for addressing this topic! I got to the rooms at 17 in 1981 and have seen this sort of thing so much. This was a taboo topic, as a woman I have been told not to gossip when I was sharing my experience.
Hi. I am new to AA (2 months). I was unaware about 13th stepping. I sure will keep my eyes open about any inapropriate behavior in the meetings I attend. Thanks for the valuable information from the participants.
I am new to AA , 1 month. .this is eye 👁 opening, I am already seeing some wierd sh*t in the room.😮
DO NOTHING TRUST OLD MEN IN AA. THEY ARE ONLY OUT FOR ONE THING. Stay with the women that have your back!
OMG..I'm in/from York, Adams, & Lancaster counties PA. Hearing someone from my hometowns discussing this problem in the midst of international participates was startling. Thank you
AA is a very shady organization.
Yes but is this organization shady knowingly, and is that shadiness more or less threatening than recent/during drunken mis-conditions? Believe it or not personal mis-relaters exist whom would resent my self-liberating escapes from their subjugatings. These are 2 faced usually, but provision practicing my love at a distance. Believe it or not some of ulterior motivation plagiarize me with intention to wreck any hope or living example original from me. Their skills at charming tourists & strangers are so amazing, you would wonder why they are not elected politicians!
My best Frien of 25 years and love of my life is being 13th stepped right now. She is barely a year into aa and is super vulnerable to this behaviour and im so scared for her, as well as being personally devastated. She has broken all contact with near anyone who is not from aa and i have no idea what to do.... :(
Womens meetings are alot safer. Not all unisex meetings are like that and unfortunately its thru the group itself that does this.
I haven’t heard a definition after-meeting for step 13 since about 15 yrs ago. They said it was sex or restarting romance relationship endeavors. No such issues were obvious around my skepticism. But consensus was not an expectation for improving my qualification for long term romance sensibilities. The delay agenda purpose was achieving self-defenses for shrinking vulnerabilities when restarting love-life challenges.
A fine line distinguishes between what is/isn’t alcoholism related reinforcements. Some might see habitual combinations like cigarettes or desperation to relax dating tension due to indoctrinated inhibiting negativities. Surely every character defect is accompanied or coordinated. Overall goal is to rebuild self until achieving successes worthwhile but omitting alcohol empowerments’ vicious cycles. This direction of viable progression did modify almost all my values due to my future self also growing important regardless of external opinions.
Reinventing myself into importance prioritized above any know personal relater, government, or RELIGION Cult or Not, is a GODLY PROMOTION severely missing from formative years. Not everyone was created with identical formula damage, but lots of addictions/traits in general are comparable processes. My faith is the God of my experimentation, and outgrowing religiosities enough to find forgiveness techniques for their refinement is requesting feasible cooperation for advancing my own life. Good luck with reserving all officiousness for personal pertinence and especially godspeed to adapt AA worthier for your participation.
There is a simple sulution . Men only meetings . Women only meetings. But if it was uo to me just forget about the dumb program of AA. The problem in the us is that the court system woukd send predators to AA instead of putting them in prison. I have resentment. I refuse to let it go. It seems when I try to seek help from my irrational thinking I get an irrational solution. I will never stop resenting AA or any other like it. I will always miss Sara. She sought help through the group I attended. She was 13 steps by my sponsor. She started drinking again. My sponsor encourages her to keep drinking until she hits rock bottom. She decided to end her life early. It is a sad and sick story that I wish I had no connection with. AA can kill. that has been my experience, strength, and hope in the program.
Very interesting, thank you, very sorry that there is misbehaviour. I enjoy when chat box and live chatting is on at the end of the meeting, I realize notices have to be posted during mtg, but is often difficult for me to pay attention to meeting when chat box is on although I am learning.
There should be a pamplet talking about the dangers of being or doing 13th step. Of course it would make AA look bad so AA cares more about their image than the safety of its members. Pretty sick.
Thank you so much!
❤!!!
One question, has anyone had seen an analysis of this situation on the fundemental aspect.
It shows how these things happen.
Why does it happen
How much the responsibilities is on the system, memebrs , predetors and the pray.
Also. How much the responsibilty is towards the ideology, the text. The big book!
kno of 13th, bt voctim too scared to be focused. Me? ive been abused mentally +verbally. inappropriately hugged +touched. i hate going to certain rooms now. +im new to AA!
yes
jeez i hate to say it people, but predators kind of do well in cults or where there are power imbalances. the whole sponsor relationship ive seen people who've left AA comparing it to the master/slave relationship in nxivm whatever. its just an issue inherent to cults and other high control situations fueled by power, control, conformity, and obedience. and the people who run the groups in prisons have noticed the sexual offenders do the best in the groups. its just how its set up. the issues in AA and other cults, high control groups, religious communities that are inherent in setting up situations that are ripe for abuse, to the point where coed groupings become frowned upon and the sexes are needed to be seperated to prevent abuse -- these are like a microcosm of why abuse is also so prevalent in society and among those who hold power in our society because those power imbalances and heirachies and the brainwashing and gaslighting still exist. i do very much appreciate hearing everyones experiences. now that there are zoom meetings tho, that definitely will help ppl avoid these situations hopefully im glad for that.
Do any have any self-control intelligence gathered concerning plagiarism? Not blaming damaged newcomer brains, it what about blue-chippers, whom cling to some alcoholism techniques regardless of chemical abstinence? Are there any radars familiar with that? Most rejectors I can remember complained to me against conceited pretenders. Equal capability is not processed by others recreating you into their image, but instead serve sincerities of them seeking better selves with better self-understandings.
I was a prodigious beer drinker, for 25 years, then quit, just like that. I had no problem and never had to resort to any of that recovery bullshit. To me, the vast majority (if indeed, not all) of people who tell me they're 'in recovery' are just idiots seeking attention. I'll ask them when they eventually will be 'recovered,' to which they answer that one never can be fully recovered.
How then, can you be in something, which is unattainable? They claim they'll always be alcoholics, but to me, if a person no longer drinks (especially if they've been abstinent for a number of years), then they're no longer alcoholics. Notwithstanding the debate over the validity of the use of the term, 'alcoholic,' it still has the connotation of someone who over drinks. But if you stop, then how can you still be considered one? I mean, ex-smokers don't go around claiming they're still smokers, so the whole misuse of the term, by these people, proves their idiocy. Instead, what they should actually say, is that they could never start drinking again (however moderately), as they would likely return to their previous, reprobate ways. This is justification enough, to say that most who attend AA are most likely not of the first water, intellectually. In fact, if I were allowed only one sentence, in which to sum them up, it would be that AA's loathe intellectuals.
Your idiocy is fully on display 😂
@@davidgilbank1100Oh really, and how so? The simplicity of your response (mere gainsaying) is typical of you pro-AA lot. But then I forget that critical thinking skills are rather lacking in your mob's argumentative toolbox. You're easily given to basically making unsubstantiated assertions, without care for backing them up. Ah well, it's no wonder you're considered a cult. Perhaps you could quote some scripture from your prophet, Wilson, to suffice.