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FYI. We started (maybe the first?) a meeting called the Shivering Denisens back in 1991 in Bloomington IN. Still going strong.

Watching this I felt like I did in one of my first meetings. I am home. Now, 22 years down the line I have come home to me. But hearing all that has been said, I felt so much at home as a Course in Miracles student as well. And my favourite book is the Sermon on the Mount by Emmett Fox. Good company I had this Sunday afternoon. Relishing it. Thank you.

Jack rules! I loved TSOL back in the day, and still love those first two records. I’m always playing riffs from those songs every time I play guitar. I’m looking forward to reading his An American Demon bio and just watched a messy version of the documentary. Jack still has the best appearance in the American Hardcore for my money. My higher power is weed. I’m thankful for it every day. Keeps me off of the death drugs. All the best to all, whether recovering or not.

AA is a religion and is deemed so by the courts thats why judges can not send offenders there anymore

❤!!!

69 % 😂

Where can I find the recording for "An Atheist and A Religious Man go on a 12 Step Call Together"? Would love to hear this one too!

Thank you so much David for help creating this zoom meeting. I just started logging into this meeting a couple of times a week and totally have enjoyed it compared to many other zoom meeting I have attended. I like how I feel secure in there & how organized it is ran but most of all the fellowship of other welcoming alcoholics has been amazing with the breakout rooms. Thank you all again.

Amazing. Sooo chuffed she was soo brave. First aa women were lesbians. Made my day. ❤

Awesome

One question, has anyone had seen an analysis of this situation on the fundemental aspect. It shows how these things happen. Why does it happen How much the responsibilities is on the system, memebrs , predetors and the pray. Also. How much the responsibilty is towards the ideology, the text. The big book!

🙏good 24h Manuela Germany

Really beautiful! Thank you for this space ✨

It is wonderful to see Rupert discuss nonduality with AA's. Relating nonduality to AA is my favorite subject.

First I want to say I really appreciated this conversation and many of the solutions offered. So important. I wanted to throw out a piece of feedback. I noticed that there were only a few folks who spoke of personal experiences of 13th stepping, and one of them talked about being a newcomer and how there was harassment on zoom in the form of messages and comments during shares. She also spoke of getting involved with someone who sounded like one of the 12-step predators based on how he was hiding his many involvements with fellow women in the program. She mentioned not feeling safe to ever go to in-person meetings. I had the same experience of only going to online meetings, and it turned me off from ever wanting to meet people IRL. I felt the exact same way as her, like thank god I don’t have to physically meet these people. The programs are not safe. Not just 13th stepping in terms of harassment, but also patterns of stalking, abuse, and even trafficking and murder. It happens more often than people want to admit. I know it doesn’t reflect well on the programs to make such a statement. But many make the choice to leave (or only go online) because it is the best way to protect themselves. It is a completely valid choice. Someone else (not a newcomer) in Washington mentioned how her local meetings are too unsafe to make it to, that she goes to online meetings instead. When I tried to speak out I was told “oh just stick with the women and you’ll be fine” as in, “it’s your fault for talking to a man, you should know better.” Seems to be the classic response. Subtle victim-blaming. The women with women and men with men solution is antiquated and does not solve the problem. It puts the burden on women to protect themselves by avoiding men, when in reality these perpetrators are skilled at what they do and will always find a vulnerable newcomer. It’s not the newcomer’s fault. It is also heteronormative and doesn’t account for how there can just as often be abuse in same-sex relations. Also this practice of, don’t date or socialize with the opposite sex until after one year, doesn’t address the issue either because people can still be preyed on even if they have time in the rooms. Newcomer or not, it is still wrong. The solution is to simply remove the predators rather than coaching someone how to look out for themselves better next time. That is condescending and just a bandaid for a deeper problem. If everyone knows that a certain guy is a creeper, instead of warning the new women to avoid him, why not just get him out of there? I’ve heard so many victim-blaming stories of people being told “own your part” when they get the courage to speak. In other words, “find a way that you caused this.” Folks are brainwashed into doing an inventory to blame themselves, and/or making amends to their perpetrator. Total deflection. The perpetrators should be held responsible. Get the police involved to prevent further rapes and murders, simple as that.

The fact that Bill had major depression and was a chronic cigarette smoker, makes sense. Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) states the emotions of sadness, depression and grief are regulated by the Lungs (Metal -element). Makes perfect sense. Good job and podcast.

There is a simple sulution . Men only meetings . Women only meetings. But if it was uo to me just forget about the dumb program of AA. The problem in the us is that the court system woukd send predators to AA instead of putting them in prison. I have resentment. I refuse to let it go. It seems when I try to seek help from my irrational thinking I get an irrational solution. I will never stop resenting AA or any other like it. I will always miss Sara. She sought help through the group I attended. She was 13 steps by my sponsor. She started drinking again. My sponsor encourages her to keep drinking until she hits rock bottom. She decided to end her life early. It is a sad and sick story that I wish I had no connection with. AA can kill. that has been my experience, strength, and hope in the program.

All three of my sponsors showed their racism "blatantly" when they got comfortable around me. It was unbelievable to hear the stuff that came out their mouth. Nevertheless, I have been sober for almost 14 years. I rarely go to meetings anymore because I just can't relate to the white men at those meetings. We literally have nothing in common besides our alcoholism. I really would like to attend a BIPOC AA meeting but unfortunately there are none in my city.

I was a prodigious beer drinker, for 25 years, then quit, just like that. I had no problem and never had to resort to any of that recovery bullshit. To me, the vast majority (if indeed, not all) of people who tell me they're 'in recovery' are just idiots seeking attention. I'll ask them when they eventually will be 'recovered,' to which they answer that one never can be fully recovered. How then, can you be in something, which is unattainable? They claim they'll always be alcoholics, but to me, if a person no longer drinks (especially if they've been abstinent for a number of years), then they're no longer alcoholics. Notwithstanding the debate over the validity of the use of the term, 'alcoholic,' it still has the connotation of someone who over drinks. But if you stop, then how can you still be considered one? I mean, ex-smokers don't go around claiming they're still smokers, so the whole misuse of the term, by these people, proves their idiocy. Instead, what they should actually say, is that they could never start drinking again (however moderately), as they would likely return to their previous, reprobate ways. This is justification enough, to say that most who attend AA are most likely not of the first water, intellectually. In fact, if I were allowed only one sentence, in which to sum them up, it would be that AA's loathe intellectuals.

I don't trust anything he says he's😊

Wayne you need to talk to me

So when were you born this much of a b**** to stalk my

The simple solution is to work the steps with a sponsor who has heard a lot of 5th steps. There’s a Resentment List, Fears List, Harms list and A Sex inventory. It almost always has nothing to do with the actual act, but using it to satisfy ego or self esteem. The final part of the Sex Inventory is to write your Sex Ideal. How you feel guided by God how to manage your sex instinct, just like all the other instincts. What does your perfect sex relationship(s) look like? Monogamy? Commitment? Only having sex with the one you love? So, the problem is that AA is no longer AA. I often hear, “I tried AA and it didn’t work for me.” My next question is, “How many 5th steps did you hear?” Invariably, it is always none. Well THAT is the program. You never even did it. Of course it didn’t work. Folks who carry the message to institutions and hear a lot of 5th steps DO NOT RELAPSE. It is mpossible to drink in that spiritual mindset, in my personal opinion. Try it. It works. And, get out of those rooms having Discussion Meetings. They kill real alcoholics. And, besides, they’re packed with sick people. Just sayin.

This is 2025. Of you dont believe me look up the orange papers. Thoigh i think the organiztoon has blocked ot.

Im do glad do many oriole out Bill W. I ask please do not do this. Im sure you will be asronished. But listen to his biogrslhy. Its crushing but Bill W. Had his awakening through lsd and the occult. But l9ok it up yourself.

When anyone struggles to find a real higher power I can only suggest that these folks strongly consider the fact that the ffpunder of AA actually tripped onnacid and THATS HOW HE HAD THE GREAT WHITE LOGHT EXPERIENCE.. THATS HOW HE FOIND GOD. SO GO TAKE SOME LSD INNA CONTROLLED SETTING WITH PEOOLE YOU TRUST AND YOU WIKL SURELY GET CLOSWR TO THE REAL GOD AS YOU UNDERSTAND HIM. IF YOU SURVIVE EYYY

Yeah well, if you need all this bizarre bullshit, just to keep off the booze, then you obviously have more wrong with you, than just that. I simply quit, over a decade ago, with no help, nor problem, at all. That was over a decade ago. And that's after having been quite a prodigious beer drinker, for 25 years prior. But if you get off on all the quasi-religiosity of AA (it's merely thinly-veiled Christian evangelicalism), then i guess it's for you. But be warned: Expect to meet a lot of mentally ill types there, many with only a desire to use others. Females especially, should take heed, as AA is notorious for being a hunting ground for sexual predators.

A a is one of the most racist non inclusive places You will ever find I have never seen a gay person or transperson Is racist and sexist jokes are spread This is common knowledge.😊

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Thank you for creating what I personally think is the best Zoom meeting for those just coming to AA, and there are so many, including myself, that got sober on the Denizens Beginners meeting. I am forever grateful for all the Denizens meetings. Thanks again.

Thank you David🤗♥️🙏🙏🙏

Hurray ❤

awesome concept Subscribed

Awesome. Great words. Things I was thinking but people don't often say in meetings!

Thanks for interviewing Rupert who I've been learning from for two years now since a huge breakthrough into the no thing experience at the end of a fifth step (30 years in program). Would you know of any ongoing program community/conversations where the Direct Path Nonduality and 12 steps come together? Thanks

While 2022 AA Membership survey (USA/Canada) suggests that (both women and) people of color are underrepresented. Compared to the 2014 survey white members dropped from 89% to 87.7% there is still work to be done to reduce overt and systemic discrimination in the meetings and messaging. Alcohol use disorder also varies by gender identification and racial origins but the disparity still exists when accommodating these factors. "Love and tolerance of others is our code." Let's all do our part, being allies, when we see something - say something, etc.

"a time comes when you become established in your true nature"" 👍 But it does require commitment and perseverance.

The ultimate one step program 😂

Just started and finding that there are some big leaps here for the uninitiated. Be patient and let your interest and curiosity lead the way.

Was Hank the one who left his wife for the gal who was typing the book? She wouldn't stop the work to be with him and he blamed Bill for it so the legend goes. He never recovered from it.

It's pathetically amusing to see how AA tries continually to make the limpid claim, that it's not just a thinly disguised cult of a diluted form of Christianity. Or that it's not religious, despite the rulings of several high US courts, that it meets the legal definition of a religious organization (in Establishment Clause cases). It's been described as most akin to an extreme form of Calvinism. Its notoriety for being an ant-intellectual organization hearkens back to its fundamentalist origins with the Oxford Group. It's founder, Bill Wilson, really only intended AA as just a way to glean money off of upper middle class, WASP men, who had a problem with drink. In later years, he was often at odds with AA leadership, due to his less than scrupulous behavior damaging AA's public image. His overriding concern, however, was with how much he was getting in royalties, from sales of the Big Book. His net worth, at the time of his death, in 1971, was reportedly US$2 million (US$15 million, in 2023 dollars).

There should be a pamplet talking about the dangers of being or doing 13th step. Of course it would make AA look bad so AA cares more about their image than the safety of its members. Pretty sick.

Great help if youre wealthy.

AA members tell the newcomer take the cotton out of your ears and stuff it in your mouth. That was my experience over and over. In fact after 30 yrs ive never got to tell my story without interruption or dismissal or misinterpretation and judgmentalism.

That was most entertaining and thought provoking. I need to practice more mindfulness of 12 step practices. Knowledge without action avails us nothing.

I came to same conclusion minus studying quantum physics and i also believe in Jungs Synchronicity An Accausal Connecting Principle.

Metanoia greek root of repentance meani g to turn away from

I feel no need to confess my faults to any person or group or minister. I think theyre obvious to people who know me. I need to admit them to myself. Get honest with ME. Thats far more important.

Gee, I drank beer prodigiously, for 25 years, then stopped, with no 'help' or problem at all--cold turkey, as they say. And I never needed to go to AA. It's definitely made for mostly feeble-minded, weak people, just so they can go into a room and be given sympathy, and shit. And they figure they have to do that for the rest of their lives? Most of the people who I've known, to be in AA, were quite demonstrably mentally ill--you could see that within five minutes of sitting and having a coffee with them. if you're thinking of joining AA, I strongly suggest asking your AA friend (most of whom appear suspiciously too ardent to get you to come to a meeting), to first let you have a coffee with some of them (other members of their AA group), outside a meeting. You should be able to easily see tell-tale signs they're mentally ill and save yourself the bother. This is especially important if you're female. If you do attend, have a trusted friend come with you, for a second opinion evaluation of them (as well as for your safety). Usually it's an ill sign, if people are too overtly gregarious to you, early on, in an attempt to recruit you, as it were. A good line to remember from Hamlet, is this: "The lady doth protest too much, methinks." The implication being, that if someone seems to posit something, too ardently, it's usually an indication that they're trying to cover something up.

Recognising the cause of craving is a bodily addction not a spiritual malady.