Tilting Trikes Part 15 - test ride time for wooden tilting reverse trike prototype!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 พ.ค. 2024
- I finally get my tilting reverse trike velomobile prototype finished and on the road!
In this video, I take the trike out for a test ride and give it a spin around a local carpark. - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
aha! that seems to have been a profound creative experience and feels inspirational for us to start on doing our tries, thank you
Great to see it working! Well done.
Thank you very much.
Thank you for sharing your expertise, its very kind of you.
Thank you for posting. Your build confirmed what I always thought, tilting on a trike is useless. Leaning a body is away to go.
Been following this idea for a long time. It was so awesome to actually see the project in working order :D
Inspiring work!
I really enjoy watching your videos. Have following for few month. Glad to saw you ride it finally!
Well done! Hope you are properly pleased with the result!
Great job!!!
Very impressive build. Congratulations!
Fantastic series of videos.
Thanks!
Is looking really good. You must be pleased! I made a trike years ago with a handlebar like yours but it was linked to the front cross members and stayed level when you tilted. It meant that you had something stable to pivot yourself from, and your brain/inner ear had a reference point when your cornering.
Este é o vídeo mais espetacular que já vi sobre isso. Parabéns!!!!
Looks great! Awesome build! Takes me back to my 1st trike build.
Cheers
Thanks!
What a cracking bit of engineering. Nice work
Thanks!
incredible. Thanks
Oh farout, you've built it !!!
Congratulations 🎉
Thanks!
wow sir finally ! part 15 and the first test drive congratulation !
Thanks!
Hello MMS,
Great to see the trike in action... I look forward to seeing it when you've done the final tweaks...
Take care.
Paul,,
Thanks!
Thank you so much!!!!!!
COR! I DON'T THINK THAT I'VE EVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE IT.HE COULD GET A WELL PAID JOB AT NASA!
Good design.
Maybe to ease with stability you could try putting springs or bungee cords diagonally on the parallelogram? Just to help it return to central position
Glad to see everything works well after all these months of building ^^
Both return to center force and damping for leaning should help with balance, but little force likely be not noticeable, and large force will force you to lean more, and there is a limit.
A combination of leaning AND tiltlock is very cool in theory (massive cornering potentil), but needs mastering in practioe.
Outstanding, going from design toprototype build. I can totally see this all carbon fibre with a polycarbonate shell or something similar.
Have you thought about making the chain come straight down from the chainring onto a drive shaft that runs underneath then up to another chain, it could be an advantage regarding chain stretch or other issues especially reducing clothing snagging in it or getting oil on clothes.
I have got a Mk II version on the drawing board. It will be carbon fibre or steel/al tubing next time around. The long chain is not ideal but a shaft would require a bevel gear at each end which would reduce efficiency and add complexity. I was thinking of having the hub gear central mounted with separate chains going to it from the pedals and from it to the wheel.
Great job, I'm sad that you haven't followed up with any more development on this project.
very nice
Thanks
Bravoooo!!!!
Any chance you'd publish CAD models for this? I'd love to 3D print a version of this. Would also help if the community could iterate on the design further. Much appreciate you taking the time to make a detailed video series
Good enginering skils. Nice
Thanks!
An interesting idea that I've had, and turns out was already tried out, it a trike with air shocks connected with an air channel. This way you get both highly tuneable tilt damping, tilt lock by means of blocking air channel (solenoid?) and it would still work like suspencion when you hit a speedpump, unlike your system...
Yes I was thinking of that option. The horizontal wooden arm at the front is quite springy, but it's not really important as the weight is over the rear wheel.
@@MetalMachineShop what kind of plywood did you used in suspension?
@@legordan it’s 15mm birch plywood.
Tolle Arbeit was mir noch fehlt ist ein Dämpfer oder Feder die das Fahrzeug wieder aufrichtet , sprich dazu bringt wieder geradeaus zu fahren . Eventuell mit Lenkung Dämpfer noch das es ruhiger wird . Würde mich freuen mehr davon zu sehen . Gruß Siggi
Hi, I’m planning to add a modified motorcycle steering damper to the tilt mechanism to calm it down a bit and also hopefully to provide a hydraulic tilt lock.
@@MetalMachineShop ich hoffe es kommt ein Update dazu , bester ansatz den ich bisher gesehen habe Top Leistung
I really enjoyed watching your series Andy. Your initial CAD analysis of the Ackerman steering was incredibly insightful. Would linking the seat upright angle in relation to the body to the tilt angle solve the twitchiness? It would definitely add to the complexity. The pivot point would probably need to be about 250 mm up from seat so your shoulders could lean in as your seat swings out on a turn. The downside would be the rider's lean would be additive to the trikes lean - to get it to lean 30º, the rider would need to lean 60º in relation to the ground...
The more I look into this, the more the complexity can spiral out of control. When I first came across Kazebikes's design, I thought it was a bit odd. But now the simplicity and stability appeal to me.
In the end, rollover stability and maintaining balance at stop are crucial for an enclosed bike. So despite the challenges, a tilting tadpole trike is probably the best answer for that application. Thanks!
Dave, I guess anything can be achieved at the cost of complexity, leading to cost and weight. My design aim for this project was to make it as simple as possible. I think a slightly higher centre of gravity would help with the twitchiness. I did see a design where the handlebars were fixed to the tilting arms, allowing the angle of tilt to be controlled by rider input to the bars. At extreme angles this does, however, put the bars at an odd angle to the rider.
My thinking is that if a normal bike can balance without all this stuff, then so should a trike is designed right.
Sorry for the late reply to your comment.
Very nice to see all this work come to fruition. What a nice job! I really enjoyed your videos; working with the lathe, the thought that goes into the steering and everything, and the whole creation looks so beautiful with the bright wood and light metal. How does the wood hold up so far? Were you in anyway 'afraid' of the wood breaking? Or confident in the strength and your calculations?
Thanks! I'm confident in the strength of the wood but keeping a close eye on the glued joints, most of which have been pinned.
Es realmente una belleza. Sería interesante conocer las características como el peso y las dimensiones finales.
👍🏆👍
I just saw you on Laidback bike Report channel too.
Thanks, yes they were kind enough to feature my project a while back!
@@MetalMachineShop
If you like trikes and concept art I just posted some pictures of some concept trikes on my channel.
i have a few suggestions
1. seat head restraint
2. Protective cover between the chain and your leg.
3.tilt lock
4. arm support.. when you use it too much, pain starts in the arm.
5. wind deflector to the front
good luck..
Thanks, I agree with all these!
Don't forget to get a bright flag and a pole for the back so drivers can see you better, as you're far lower down than a normal bike.
Noice!
Still curious what happened to tgis trike... 😅
i asked (The Q) to help u to finishing & development ur designs ...
i hope they do ... 😊
Congrats. Seems that ou have no ackerman compensation, the inside wheels looks missing angle no ?
That's a great job you've made. I believe the bike is still rideable :) Would you be kind to show the bike how it is right now? I am also thinking about biulding a recumbent trike out of plywood. With as less cutting of a plywood as possible. Instead I would like to bend the thin plywood and glue it together to make like one piece plywood frame. Best regards :)
Hi Mariusz, I’ll try to upload another video when there is more to show. I think it would be possible to design a much better (stronger and lighter) plywood frame than mine, especially if you do some stress calculations, which I didn’t do for this prototype. I just designed it around scrap wood that I had, so it’s not an optimised design! Sorry for the late reply to your comment.
Extra long trike...heck with that layout, you could have larger front wheels...
You may add a motorcycle steering damper to improve/smooth the tilting!
It would certainly be worth trying, I’m not sure whether it would make it better or worse! Good idea.
Consider a tilt damper rather than a steering damper. That may improve slow speed balance without having to fight a steering damper at the handle bars at slow speeds.
I found you just now, you made a comment on a GCN video. I had to subscribe!
Hello and welcome!!
@@MetalMachineShop Thanks, this build of yours is so cool. Love seeing this
When it lean, the baricenter of weight go down... and when you steer the baricenter tent to go up?
Olá! Como está o trike agora?
Very Impressed! Nicely executed and good to see you able to ride it.
My tadpole suffered a tremendous amount of power-loss because of the angles the chain had to describe on the power-side to get from front to rear. What sort of loss are you experiencing if any? I found that higher angular change and smaller pulleys/idlers were the worst combination. :(
Thanks! It's difficult to give a fully scientific answer but it doesn't feel like the losses are too bad. The angles are not too big.
Just posted on my channel Tron bike concept art and some Robots too.
Also posted Trike concept. Coming soon Tron tanks and other sci-fi vehicles.
I'm super interested in what happend to this project. Did you finish the bike and use it? How is the riding experience etc!
Your new videos reminded me of this build... Did you have more time to test ride it ? To implement the tilt lock mechanism ? I think this is really promising... A front wheel drive would be good (little chain stretch) but probably hard to implement well...
What is the widest you can make it and still be practical to ride everywhere?
Come back! You have so much potential!
Thanks - I've been busy on other things recently but am working on a Mk II version of the trike which I hope to get to in due course; it should be more practical than the prototype.
Awesome work man! Hope your delighted with it?!
Thanks! I’m pleased it’s got this far but there is more fettling and development to be done!
@@MetalMachineShop Hi again! Just a quickie to say... Ive finally finished my one! You were inspirational... Heres the link if youre leisurely some day! Cheers Fon... th-cam.com/video/ax_P3HWG-Is/w-d-xo.html
Thank you very much for sharing! Do you think your suspension gonna fit in quadricycle too?
It should do!
The steering looks a little twitchy, is that something you’ll be able to get used to or can you adjust by adjusting the geometry slightly? How far will it tilt? It’s great to see it moving and I look forward to you spiffing it up over the next couple of episodes.
Are you gonna store it on its wheels or standing upright to take up less room in your garage?
I think the main reason for the sensitive steering is the low centre of gravity, but adjusting the caster angle may also help. It will probably be stored on its wheels but it could theoretically be stored vertically!
@@MetalMachineShop
It must feel great to finally have something that’s working pretty much as intended?
How about a hub drive electric motor for steep ascents and a little regen braking for descents?
@@thechumpsbeendumped.7797 yes it’s good to get to a conclusions and at least some success. Electric assist is very much in my mind for the future. Tilt is limited to 20 degrees at the moment, but I can increase that as it does lean up to the stops.
hi, very nice work and i enjoyed your progress so far, My question is: does the tilting system provide benefits in terms of ride quality. I'm asking this since trikes have a very low center of gravity anyway
Sorry for not replying sooner. The tilting has tow benefits in terms of ride quality - first, it's just more comfortable leaning in than getting thrown to the outside by centrifugal force and, second, if either front wheel hits a bump, the frame is only raised up by half the amount. The tilting arms are also quite springy, so there is some suspension as a result.
Nice to see it working. I am planning on doing a 4 wheeled (no tilt) velomobile myself.
Isn't that bottom bracket too high? It looks like it is quite uncomfortable, at least from my perspective. Just asking to have a reference point in my own build, as I have never ridden a recumbent myself.
According to Mike Burroughs if the bottom bracket is too low it affects the amount of power you can generate.
It does look high but actually feels very natural, believe it or not. The riding position is exactly the same as it would be on a road bike, just rotated backwards.
Thanks!
Really interesting project, I like the fact you don't have a tilt lock...... Would an oil filled damper slow the tilt down just enough to make it more stable at low speed?
I might try getting hold of a cheap motorcycle steering damper from ebay and see if it makes a difference. The tilting and steering is a little twitchy. A higher centre of gravity would also help I think - plus give a bit more much-needed ground clearance. I am in the process of bodging a tilt lock as I think the main point of a trike is not to have to put your feet down when stopping. it will also be essential when manoeuvring around bollards or through very tight gaps.
@@MetalMachineShop motorcycle steering dampers can be adjustable, I just think it would make the tilt machanism less twitchy at low speed.
A++++ Do you have to apply countersteer (like a motorcycle) to tilt/corner at higher speeds ( > 20kph)?
Yes, you can’t lean your body much so all balance is mainly achieved by counter-steering at any speed.
Is the tilt driven by your balance or the steering geometry?
The steering and tilt mech are not interlinked. It balances in the same way as a bike, but you can't shift your body weight so much.
Оно валит!
What are the possibilities that it can be driven by shaft not by chain or chain moving behind the frame for more comfort
It would be physically possible to arrange a shaft drive, but it would need to be made of parts that are not standard bike parts, so would be expensive. It would also need a bevel gear at each end, which is less efficient than a chain drive.
The frame could be designed to partially enclose the chain, helping to keep the chain clean.
I've a question. Does the tilting mechanism remove the need to have an Ackerman steering mechanism?
No it still has Ackerman although the inside wheel is currently oversteering slightly so some fine tuning is needed.
Hi Andy. Just curious to know what the weight of the machine is when ridden/driven in this video.
What tilt lock mechs have you considered so far?
Regards Mark in the UK
Hi there, the weight is somewhat north of 20kg so definitely room for improvement. For tilt lock, I’m thinking a mechanical interlock pin in a hold kind of thing.
Nice! Glad you could finally start testing it ! 👍
How many degrees can you lean in a turn? On my Tilting Trike I can reach 40°, it's a good compromise
@@daniele_go hi, it's designed for 30 degrees, but limited to 20 at the moment but I am hitting the stops at this angle.
@@MetalMachineShop Hi, you may find that 30° is not enough...
The point is that if you 'hit the stops' at 20° it is going to widen its trajectory and push it toward the outside.
Originally I thought that 25-28° was enough but experience proofed me wrong 😉
more pls
A trike that falls over when not riding at speed. Is it worth the work and weight over a two-wheel recumbent? I think it's fascinating tech and an interesting series of development videos, don't get me wrong!
It is highly doubtful whether it is worth it! I was driven by curiosity to see if it was possible mainly.
That's the debate! Although with some deflopilators and a tilt-lock that issue should be eliminated.
How heavy is the trike? Can it also hold strong sprints to go faster?
it’s over 20kg, there is quite a lot of spring in the front tilting arms already and it would be possible to add suspension to the rear as well by changing the design a bit,
At 4:18 the steering angle of the two front wheels seem to be wrong as they are not turning the curve using the same centre of the curve I tend to conclude that the three wheels are not turning to the left using the same centre of the curve. passing through the real wheel axis. I do not think this is an optical illusion as I see it. The inner wheel turn more than the outer wheel, which does not seem to be the case here. Perhaps I am wrong but I have checked other turns to the right and the left with different curves. .
So no suspension whatsoever?
Do you know of one with full suspension? Tilting is second on the list for me.
There’s quite a bit of spring in the front horizontal arms and they are so far forward that bumps are not really felt. Rear suspension would certainly be an advantage!
Hey! How the bike going along?
Hi, well I’ve not done a huge amount on it recently, I’m slowly working on the design for an improved version. Hopefully it will see the light of day at some point.
Could give us a Update? Do you Shared your Design somewhere?
i can make 3d shell design for this. its so cool.
I would think your tilting design could improve the stability of a velomobile (trike) when cornering at high speed for the same track width. Is this already something you can confirm based on your prototype?
That's a given, but your velo will no longer be a velo, but a singletrack streamliner with everything that entails (succeptability to side winds). But adding tilts lock/damping will likely make it "best of both worlds".
yes it would, but it’s very challenging to design a velomobile with tilting wheels contained within the streamlined body. Wheels could be outside the body, but you are going to compromise on aerodynamics slightly.
@@MetalMachineShop make that "greatly less aero" due to massive interference drag (unless you shape the wheel spats to flow field, they should look like commas). however, have you read Craig Cornerius (lefthandedcyclist) blog? Even a very limited tilting can go a very long way, provided you can "lock" the tilting and prevent "tipover" to the other side, or somehow uncouple leaning from steering.
@@Balorng I’ll look it up, thanks!
@@MetalMachineShop so long as you are willing to go e-assisted, among my ideas as torque-vectoring tilting arrangement, where tilting as accomplisted by reactive moment acting on trailing swingarms (not perpendicular like on, say, latest tilter by Arcimoto), and this also doubles as front steering without actually steering. To drastically increase "torque/power density" of such a setup you can use combination of regen braking AND torque vectoring, with *rear* steering for slow-speed manuevering (so you get all wheel steer, essentially) and series hybrid human driverain. I wanted to test this, but I have more pressing problems problems now, unfortunately. What I like about this concept is that it relatively simple mechanically and electrically/electronically and can allow for a highly streamlined vehicle that "may" actually outperform a more conventional one even in "net zero battery drain" /pure human power mode at high speed, with benefit of assisted climbing AND recuperative braking.
Hello
I built a leaning trike with the help of your videos but I have steering problems. The outer wheel scrubs a lot even with the slightest turn while the trike is upright/not leaning.
What could be the problem
hi, it’s hard to say without seeing it, but it sounds like it could be a problem with the steering geometry.
Links to to photos
drive.google.com/file/d/1-2TkuI7zcROXK_H55PWOvNTGjz745OXo/view?usp=drivesdk
drive.google.com/file/d/1-5uLQYkvKUCuatgyi274w4AGjIYAYi55/view?usp=drivesdk
It looks like the Ackerman steering geometry may not be correct. I can’t make out the steering bell crank details from the photos so it could be that and/or the steering arms should be pointing towards the centre of the rear wheel/axle more. In any case, it seems like the inner wheel should be turning through a greater angle when steering, maybe? Looks cool, by the way.
I'll try that and thanks for the inspiration, i couldn't have made it without the help of your videos
So I took it out for a test ride yesterday, really hard to control, does the wheelbase have any effect on that?
Well done. I think you should. Box in the. Gears and chain. Check out the USA trike genius. Roo , I think she's called. I think she's nearly got it nailed. Hit the nail on the head!
It,s good to get some sun on those milkbottels....
What happened to the project in the end?
Well it’s sort of on hold; the prototype proved the principle but is not really a practical machine in any sense. I’m working on a Mk II design, which will be slightly shorter, higher and probably made of steel or composite. The other key addition will be a tilt lock, which I would consider to be essential for negotiating confined spaces.
What problem does the tilting solve?
Good question! More comfortable leaning in than it would be on a fixed trike. Key benefit I think is that tadpole trikes can be very unstable at speed with a tendency to spin about their vertical axis (see horror video on TH-cam); a tilting design should avoid this.
Will we see more updates?
hopefully at some point!
.. well, ... a year has passed, how is your tilting trike doing, how does it ride over long distances, does the tilting mechanism work as desired, have you optimized the weight in the meantime, have you changed anything constructively?
An "enlightenment vid.", also with data on the trike would be nice ...
... btw., ... I'm still impressed ...
... nun, ... ein Jahr ist vergangen, wie steht es um dein Tilting Trike, wie fährt es sich über längere Strecken, funktioniert der Tilting - Mechanismus nach Wunsch, hast du es inzwischen gewichtsmäßig optimiert, hast du überhaupt konstruktiv etwas geändert ?
Ein "Aufklärungsvid.", auch mit Daten zum Trike wäre schön ...
Well, the project has been on hold for a bit due to other priorities, however, what it really needs is a working tilt lock and tilt damper. Without a tilt lock it’s very impractical as it’s impossible to navigate in confined areas without dismounting. The low centre of gravity also makes it very twitchy on the roll axis, so not very relaxing to ride. Ground clearance is also too small. All this means I have drafted a design for a (hopefully) improved version, slightly higher, shorter and narrower. I haven’t decided whether to make it yet!
... thanks for the answer, @@MetalMachineShop, after all the trouble it would be a pity if this project came to nothing, I really hope that you can pull yourself together to continue ...
One question: wouldn't the tilt mechanism be "self-stabilizing" if the center of gravity is below (!) the roll axis?
In curves, for example, the correct tilt angle would automatically adjust itself, while your weight would then stabilize the vehicle when it was stationary... ?
... danke für die Antwort, nach den ganzen Mühen wäre es doch schade, wenn dieses Projekt im Sande verläuft, ich hoffe doch sehr, dass du dich aufraffen kannst weiterzumachen ...
Eine Frage : Wäre der Tilt - Mechanismus nicht "selbststabilisierend", wenn der Schwerpunkt unter (!) der Rollachse liegt ?
So würde in Kurven sich automatisch der richtige Tilt - Winkel einstellen, im Stand würde dein Gewicht das Fahrzeug dann stabilisieren ... ?
Is it plywood or hard wood? It's in wich country?
It's birch plywood; UK.
Is it solid than marine plywood,because i don't know about birch plywood.
And salute to your creative mind thanks sir.
@@ulhassawant7700 Marine ply is different and would probably be better. The ply I used is really for interior use but I just happened to have some. It needs painting for protection.
Thanks sir.
Здравствуйте.Какой вес рамы?
Hi, the ground clearance is about 90mm (not enough). The top of the frame is about 600mm off the ground at the highest point.
@@MetalMachineShop He's asking about the weight.
The weight is about 25kg. Very heavy, but the frame could be made a lot lighter.
weight?
well over 20kg
U trust plywood?
What’s wrong with using plywood for the prototype?
@@thechumpsbeendumped.7797 why not 3d print it?
@@kusukacolaylowlee1611 do you know someplace where he or someone else can do this for affordable price?
@@kusukacolaylowlee1611
Size of print and cost being the most obvious. Do you know anywhere that can do a 2.5mx400mm print at an affordable cost?
Plywood is cheap, strong, easy to modify if he gets something wrong and has been used to great effect for hundreds of years and can be used with minimal and low cost hand tools.
Plywood is used for convenience for the prototype. I think it’s perfectly adequate this purpose, but maybe not as a permanent solution. Many WWII fighters were made of wood, so it’s a reasonable option.
Wish you're made more video's
I'm hoping to find the time for more uploads in due course; life's too busy!