And how many people would have more sense of purpose if we had a food shortage and everyone was encouraged to go work on farms to produce more food? I have to wonder how much of the problem today is that people are just denied access to the things we deem worthy, either through lack of money (i.e. running businesses), education (curing cancer), or the like. This is part an issue of the removal of scarcity in simple things, but also part an issue of what we value. 100 years ago, many janitors took pride in their work and had no issue establishing their sense of purpose through their work.
@@colinsmith1495 If you are woried about getting food then you are worried about getting food rather than existential questions like the meaning of life.
Videogames do tend to imply that humans desire scarcity given that virtually all videogames deny instant gratification, and goal attainment, and enabling cheats is at least partially avoided by players even in singleplayer games. This is in spite of scarcity being solvable by a simple change in 1s and 0s by game publishers.
Post Scarcity K2 civilisation Video game publishers : I think the video game market should be able to handle a quadrillion new releases per year. Grant : . . . . No, there was time! THERE WAS TIME!
My total repertoire of games I've ever remembered playing or owning is about 3800. I think I've beaten a few hundred of those. Max a thousand. Everything from browser games or arcade games where the end condition is "get as far as you can" rather than 100% all the content program into it all the way to AAA RPGs that take longer to complete than reading the First Law trilogy. Oh, to have post-scarcity future where I could beat every single one would be great.
@@SarevokRegor yeah, but once you get rid of the cheap knockoffs and endless cashgrab "sequels" of AAA shooters that get released each month by EA, you have a much more reasonable pool to choose from.
The last 12 months have been the most challenging of my life . With a relationship breakdown and me making positive changes in my own life . Your videos have helped me so much deal with my anxiety and depression . Thank you
Guess there wouldn't be any changes in my and your life if internet has never been invented, thanks to the people who invented it and changed our lifes, also guess what new advanced technologies like metaverse or something else will exist in the future that will change our and next generations lifes even beyond
As a rather steadfast nihilist, albeit of the more optimistic sort (ie. abandoning the idea of a higher purpose can be freeing), I think purpose may well become *easier* to find in the future. There are several professions/hobbies I would have loved to be a part of, but couldn't because I still have to work to get food and transport and housing as such. Without those concerns, there's many more things I could enjoy. I often cite bonsai as an activity that I would pick up if I were immortal, because it's something that you constantly improve on, have to do regularly, and can never finish: something that can drive you forward forever. I suspect that a lot of people will turn to various arts or specialty crafts that they are only able to pursue because they don't have to worry about how large the market is or if somebody can do it better or if they can survive off of it. As such, I think a post-scarcity society would have a level of arts and culture we've never seen before, because so many talented people are free to expand on their talent and express themselves more freely, and less talented people are able to improve themselves in an art, regardless of the skill of those around them. We'd get movements and communities of people so specific that we could never hope to define them all.
High scarcity society: Goal is almost purely "survive" Medium scarcity society: Goal shifts toward "improve access to shrinking pool of still-scarce resources" Low/post scarcity society: Goal becomes "sustain access to no-longer-scarce resources"
I am one of those people who just wants to make art. I do not know if that is my 'highest and best use' but it is the only thing that makes me feel like the rest of life is worth the bother.
I have seen people dedicate entire years of their life to exploring just one virtual world, or one series of code, or speed running a game. People, like cats, are easily motivate to entertainment. I doubt most ppl will have issues.
It only take one-in-a-billion of those people tinkering with their hobbies to come back with a new idea that transforms the world for the better. Huh, we should incentivise that somehow. * looks pointedly at the dead end of gamification *
@@raaaaaaaaaam496 Why do people lack meaningfulness? When your value is measured by value extraction and production, those who are alienated by the material conditions, or the labor relations, or the ideology of a community or culture, have no where to run but to the concept of worthlessness imposed by an economic system. This is less dire an issue in the west, with all our frivolous distractions, but even those distractions are not enough to ignore the relationship one has with the world is as a commodity. This, surely, as a framework, is an antagonist to meaningful life
"We keep inventing jobs because of this false idea that everybody has to be employed at some kind of drudgery because, according to Malthusian Darwinian theory he must justify his right to exist. So we have inspectors of inspectors and people making instruments for inspectors to inspect inspectors. The true business of people should be to go back to school and think about whatever it was they were thinking about before somebody came along and told them they had to earn a living.” - Buckminster Fuller
Well that was quick. I'm tempted to retract my earlier statement, that dive was absolute nonsense. Every site or forum using/related/attributed to that statement (and even the creator of the statement) are seemingly surrounded by baseless or nonsense groups/content/statements saying foolish cancel culture crap such as; 'Using the data provided by the United State Bureau of Labor Statistics, Erik Rauch has estimated productivity to have increased by nearly 400% since 1950. According to Rauch, “if productivity means anything at all, a worker should be able to earn the same standard of living as a 1950 worker in only 11 hours per week.” Source: Wikipedia (roflmao @ wiki, no studies, no evidence, just a claim of data used but no definition of said data) Another site is clearly all for turning the world into child molesting ladyboys and erasing gender... Which fyi, is the sort of propaganda people with no purpose invent to screw the world into chaos because they just want to watch everyone suffer and commit global genocide/suicide whichever comes first; “Men, like women, are challenged with their belief that being their gender means anything. Whether favorably associated or not, the “male” identity comes with it a freight train of cultural and sociological beliefs that are no more real than any one of the millions of cultural or social labels we attach to ourselves every day.” That was the cherry on top and subsequent end of 'DIVE'...
Bucky wasn't wrong. There were guys in the 1930s -- Keynes may have been one of them, but don't quote me on that -- who worked out that all basic human needs for everyone in the world (food, shelter, clothing, etc.) could be satisfied if people worked something like 3-4 hours/day for a couple of days a week. Mechanisation is great like that.
@@joshuabastion995 There's a fundamental error in that logic. People don't want the same standard of living with less work, they want as high standard of living as they can afford by working as much as they reasonable can. And another issue is that in most countries many of the basic needs are made artificially hard to satisfy to force people to work hard for someone else, so the benefits of increased productivity mostly go to the ruling elite, not the average citizen. The US is a good example.
As someone who has suffered from depression because of difficulty in overcoming the challenges of scarcity, I find it hard to sympathize with people who think post-scarcity will lead to a lack of purpose. I would think it would be the opposite; abundance leads to an explosion of opportunity, which makes finding a purpose easier.
Yeah, I often feel like there's three ways scarcity negatively affects my mental health: a constant anxiety about making the use of resources I represent "worth it" and wondering if I'm living my life suboptimally (including whether my existential dread itself makes my life less meaningful it could be for the same resource expenditure were I more able to enjoy life), worry about my continued ability to maintain existence through money into the future when my career prospects so far are non-existent (not an immediate concern for me, luckily), and a generalized feeling of guilt by complicity in various injustices in the world: so many people have it worse than me (mostly unnecessarily due to the greed of their fellow humans), and I profit indirectly off of the systems that made them that way. I often think that, if I knew that I could guarantee my survival more or less indefinitely without needing to come up with a scheme to prove myself economically "worthy" (apparently meaning "predatory upon others or passively useful in serving the most predatory", since actually helping others doesn't usually pay very well) to exist or feeling like I'm taking proverbial or literal food from people's mouths, I'd take up hobbies that... don't seem like me on the outside. I think I'd like to paint, if I didn't feel like the time, energy, and money/resources spent on 'indulging in' that was directly taken from a limited pool. I'd definitely learn to cook and spend a lot of time cooking and eating interesting new cuisines, particularly if I could escape the guilt of overeating while people starve. I'd get more heavily into 3D printing and design/tinkering/invention/robotics if I didn't constantly ask myself whether using three hundred grams of plastic on some project was societally optimal use of it. I think I'd master crafts one after another. It takes longer to master an artform or craft than it does to invent a new one, so I don't think I'd ever run out of skills to master (and video games provide a similar treadmill of skill mastery), so it seems silly to think people would ever run out of things to do. I'm a perfectionist, and it seems I'm stressing myself out heavily over the idea that my very existence represents suboptimal (and therefore wrong) use of society's resources. To not have that anxiety, to be able to allow myself to do things without worrying about the bigger picture, sounds so freeing. It drives me absolutely crazy with rage when people whine about how death or infirmity or homelessness or starvation or the effective slow death penalty for not finding work "the market" desires needs to be kept forever because "humans wouldn't have purpose without it", even if it's possible to get rid of it (which it may or may not be yet, but that should be an agreed upon goal for the future). People should do things that make themselves and others happy, not be told that their inability to outperform a machine makes them useless. The measuring of a person's worth by 'productivity' in an era where pure capital in the form of automation can increasingly often do a better job than any human can is killing our sanities (and frequently literally killing us, too). Freedom from that anxiety will make people more able to live purposeful lives, not less!
I've always wondered what people did for a living in Star Trek. All you ever see are the people that are scientists, engineers, and doctors. What about the average person?
Maybe that is the average person? If you educated everyone to the max and were post-scarcity then everyone would be artists, inventors, engineers, musicians etc etc
@@edpistemic Perhaps, but if that is the case how can there be an Academy with entrance exams? Few people have a natural proclivity to those fields. It seems like there would be nothing to do.
Ben Sisko's dad has that restaurant in New Orleans that he appears to be running for fun rather than profit. Picard's brother ran the family vineyard and it wasn't clear what happened to the wine given the nature of the Star Trek economy.
As demonstrated in some episodes, it seems people are more or less free to pursue their passions. Some manage bistros, restaurants, and pubs, some like to drink in or eat in those restaurants or pubs. Some like to pursue their arts, some like to raise families and take care of children. Some people like making buildings and infrastructure, and some like landscaping. There are also athletes, entertainers, and competitors of all sorts. Yea, pretty much like normal, except due to lack of worry over most resources, the "job" market is wide open.
I want to know how to find a sense of purpose in a scarcity society, being obligated to do copious amounts of meaningless work to gain hardly enough to survive. To not have access to good and accessible medical treatment, being afraid of street violence. I'm sure I can have a purpose in a post scarcity one. Study, meditation, contemplation, physical activities, make art, learn new skills, play with friends, etc.
@Almost blank and when people say "whatever you decide to do, AI will do better". And... So what? Everything I do there's a lot of people who does it better and I'm not even concerned about it. It's like, you really think you gotta be the best in the world in something to find purpose in it? Talk about some ego delusions.
@@SrValeriolete well the things that AI will do better they will do better to a point where no one will hire humans but there are many things that AI won't ever be able to do anytime soon. Take retail work for example, right now the problem is getting actual moving robots but the second that happens all retail workers will lose their jobs and be replaced by the AI robots which is obviously messed up but just how it will work. Because of this is makes searching for a career and getting your kids a proper education a lot more important but there are still many low paying jobs which an AI might be good at but just not as reliable as humans therefore humans will be used
Imagine trying to write a book being concerned in creating something better than all the genius of the past and present. That's bullshit, just write what you heart yearns. Advanced AI would actually help you by making a good editor. I haven't watched the video, yet. Probably Isaac adressed everything I am saying here. I will watch it at lunch time.
I can not recommend the audio book versions of the Culture books highly enough... especially Consider Phelebas and Look to Windward read by Peter Kenny.... if you can get hold of them you will not be disappointed.... in both novels the ethics of the situation are teased out in the most moving way.
Read the epilogue... his explanation of the Idiran/Culture War which is the background to the novel... if that doesn’t wet your appetite to learn more then you know their not for you...
Your mention of both *_Detective Comics_* #27 and of becoming embedded in a VR environment which you've deliberately arrange to ensure you're unaware is a simulation brings to mind the idea of a vacation in which you become an eight-year-old in the Summer of 1939 whose mother runs a candy store, so you can hang out and eat chocolate-covered peanuts and read comic books and pulp magazines all day, with your adult tastes and sensibilities suppressed so you can enjoy these things fully.
@@VainerCactus0 No, if you really were immersed in the mind of an eight year old in the Summer of 1939, you would fold back the pages of your *_Detective Comics_* #27 while eating a drippy meatball sandwich, and later trade it, and your copy of *_New York World's Fair Comics_* #1, for a candy bar.
Glasses or groceries? Yeah I was at that point for years and now I finally got new glasses after using old ones for about 10 years and it has really changed my life a lot.
In the same boat myself... Been picking groceries over new glasses for about 4 years too many now. Glad to hear your eyeballs got the love they deserve!👍
Hmm... I'd say nah because for "work" to be, requires someone that needs it. Now if you have no scarcity at all, there'll be very few work needed to be done, and everyone will volunteer cause they have nothing else to do, and then the work becomes the scarce resource...
Most volunteer work involves helping those in need - something that theoretically would not exist in a post-scarcity world. Thus, volunteer work may be completely unnecessary.
8:15 that's so true 😂, i grew up in a slamp in Brazil, later in life i became an engineer, but today i find my self thinking about saving 2 or 3 USD in my bills, even though it doesn't make any sense, my time worth much more than that
Food, water, data, and walks outdoors. My one friend/wife and I'm gravy. As long as I'm alive actually I'm winning in my book. Countless ways I could not have so this is ok... Wish humanity loved life, knowledge, and our home planet but my voice is small. Well done as always bro.
Basically, you mix stoicism and buddhism, some of Surak's teaching. He did resurrect Vulcan after a nuclear war lol. I'm not saying that I'm joyous, just content. It's interesting to watch events and learn history. So many interconnected parts, but so disjointed and unaware of their commonality.
@@MrNote-lz7lh An AI writing stories or art doesn't remove the value in myself creating them myself. An AI does not necessarily share the same artistic visions as I do, it may not explore ideas in the same way I would. Especially in a post-scarcity society, where commercial value has much reduced value and less necessity of focus, and pursuing self-fulfillment is more easily achievable because of freedom from needing any sort of commercial viability.
Thank you for being one of the few futurists I can think of who actually considers the bounds of science and what it can provide. So many people discount the value of good philosophy but then complain about the futility of their lives and it really starts to get frustrating listening to them
purpose can only be searched if conciousness exists. conciousness is a prerequisite for every purpose. conciousness/will is the deepest internal layer we can dig to for purpose prerequisites, so it makes for a sturdy core motivator. purpose is a question of value of something, and valueing creates value. therefore conciousness must have value as a first step and be therefore always be deepest level purpose. this is valid, as a search for purpose without a conciousness doing the search, defining purpose or defining validity itself, is paradoxical. conciousness creates validity, as its the only measuring standard of it.
@@MrNote-lz7lh its obvious when you read it. But this obviousness makes this lesson easily forgetable, making pwople drift into nihilism. but this shows there can be a true universal morality (wherever it may end up).
Yeah but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I really don’t think there was ever a time people didn’t have existential dread, nor shouldn’t they. “Humans are alive to expedite the heat death of the universe” - lol an awesome Isaac quote
If beauty is in the eye of the beholder it cannot truly exist. But it isn't. Search up why humans prefer symmetrical objects. And you will discover beauty is more objective than you think.
I am so glad that this channel exists. Issac Arthur runs commentary runs in the back of my mind when I am writing my Eclipse Phase campaigns. I do think for myself, but having the another, more intelligent viewpoint on it really helps me figure out what I need to research more.
I'm never content on my investing returns. Last year I saw a ridiculous 67% increase and I still feel I could have gotten more out of it if it weren't for a few decisions. But I don't worry about money, that's nice. Though I never want to spend any of it either, because it will decrease my returns.
@@dotz7616 67% isn't even crazy, especially for 2020. I got like 1600% in about 18 months. And I'm pissed because 2000% was within reach when tech stocks crashed. I have to keep reminding myself that most people are happy with a 10% annual return.
I’ve been struggling with some crap regarding purpose and the last segment where u give advice...bruh 😭 I’m at work. Uncool. Thank u for spiritually listening to and answering the unspoken question 👍🏻👍🏻
Isaac Arthur - as someone with a science degree you seem to be an excellent philosopher. You and your team and collaborators have produced another excellent video. Thanks.
I have a few thoughts: First, even though, as you pointed out, we are almost post-scarcity in some areas, we still create a sense of purpose for ourselves. Similarly, people living in post-scarcity societies will still be able to create a sense of purpose. Yes, it will differ from person-to-person, but it does already. Some people might create their purpose around helping other people through teaching, or around uncovering new historical knowledge, or similarly big things like trying to do something big for the entire civilization. Still others might have more of a "low-level" sense of purpose, like being a restaurant owner, a bartender, etc. The contests of what drives those types of purposes will likely change in the future, but the overarching ideas of the purposes people create will not. Second, I thoroughly enjoyed your personal note at the end of the episode. I am a high-achieving student in school, but because of the times we live in, I don't consider that my purpose. Instead, I consider it as an offshoot of a purpose I have created for myself--discovering new knowledge and helping people in whatever way I can, both for the sake of it and also so I can use that to, hopefully, one day do something for humanity itself. Big goals and a sense of purpose around those big goals are only possible due to the time I live in and my environment, because I don't have to worry about basic needs, or even doing well in school. Sure, I do it, but again, it's not my main purpose, and whether I knew it or not, I don't think it's ever been. Even before I knew "Oh, I created a sense of purpose for myself", doing well in school was only an offshoot of the fact I loved learning new things, which is something I consider to be one of my purposes now and know it is. In a similar way, I met some absolutely wonderful people three years ago, and it was only until about half a year later I realized I had subconsciously created a purpose for myself around them, which was ensuring I let them know they mattered to me. And guess what? Around the same time I realized I had done that, the opposite happened--they let me know I mattered to them! Isaac, you said when you find something new, you won't immediately know it'll turn out to be what you create/find your purpose around, and that is true. I also realized a year and a half ago I had subconsciously created a related purpose--doing something to spread knowledge, and maybe even do something for humanity itself someday. Just like the examples I gave previously, it was something I had enjoyed thinking about for a long time, but it wasn't until that point I realized it was something that could be considered a created purpose because it manifested out of that thing I loved doing. And, this might sound nuts, but you and this channel had a part to play in that. So, thank you so much for helping me realize in the way you did I had created an extremely fulfilling purpose out of something I didn't even know I did. I don't know how that happened and how this channel made me realize it, but it did. You did. This episode gave me a lot to think about, as you can tell by the insane length of this.
“You see, money doesn’t exist in the 24th century. The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity.” -Captain Jean-Luc Picard
I’d say it’s just as canon as any other Star Trek episode involving time travel. Unlike the Kelvin Timeline films that are sort of their own thing. And in regards to money, even in Star Trek, trade obviously exists and people work and get some benefits out of it. Currency may not really exist (in the federation) but it seems people work for more than just “bettering themselves”. And there are limited resources at times and things like transport credits have been mentioned which imply people can’t do whatever they want all the time and that there are limits. But seeing someone like Miles O’Brian getting super stressed out because he has to fix everything, and not getting paid, it might be questionable if it’s really worth it, but I guess in their universe it is worth it somehow from having a reliable place to stay, food, and entertainment, maybe that’s all some people need in life on a starship. I fricken love Star Trek tho.
@@lovingnature7168 yeah, Star Trek was "Optimistic Science Fiction", the newer stuff is more a dystopian Dark Space Fantasy. that and the bloom and lens flairs got to be a bit overdone of late, SpaceX gets better video from a GoPro stuffed in a metal box, lol. LLAP
something that occurred to me that differs from your purpose being survival vs becoming successful in some way. you can only fail at surviving once, you can fail at any other endeavor many many times and that can have a detrimental effect of it's own.
Wow this may be the most motivating SFIA yet, loved it! I can also relate on so many levels with you Issac beeing an Army vet myself I have had many similar experiences, traving and meeting friends all over the place. I hope this resonates with many others as well.
The Raindrop Who Lost His Cloud Once upon a time there was a raindrop named Stewart Stewart lived in a small white cloud that floated lazily amidst many others in the late fall skies. One morning he awoke wondering, “What is my purpose?”. He drifted from raindrop to raindrop in the cloud asking the same question and receiving the same answer over and over again, “Why, to grow up and fall to the lands below and go to the rivers and eventually on to the great ocean.”. That didn’t satisfy Stewart. He as afraid he’d fall onto a desert and just evaporate away or even worse, fall onto a city street and get sucked down into a dark smelly sewer. “I want to do more with my life”, said Stewart. I wonder what the raindrops in other clouds want to do when they get big? Eventually his curiosity grew so strong that he went way to the edge of the cloud and peered out at the other clouds. They looked so close but no matter how loud he called out they couldn’t hear him. Stewart felt a strong breeze and jumped in. Up-up-up he rose and then onwards to another cloud. The next cloud looked a bit bigger than the one he was from and the drops were a bit bigger and almost ready to fall. “What are you going to do when you fall?”, asked Stewart. “Why, to grow up and fall to the lands below and go to the rivers and eventually on to the great ocean.”, they replied one after another. “Oh, well”, sighed Stewart. Stewart went back to the edge of the cloud but he was now all turned around in his directions. The clouds all looked the same! The breeze had shifted too! He was hopelessly lost. Stewart cried so hard he was afraid he would evaporate away. Oh, What shall I do wailed Stewart. A big thunderhead loomed downwind of the cloud he was on. “With so much power maybe they can help”. Stewart gathered his courage and leaped back into the wind. But alas, as he approached, lightning flashed, thunder roared, and hail stones flew by saying, “Hop on!, Were gonna dent some cars and break some windows before we set off for the great ocean!”. “No, no thanks”, replied Stewart. So off he drifted again. He felt so lonely. Eventually he joined up with a gang of rouge raindrops. They said that their goal was to just have fun. At last, a different purpose. “That sounds great”, said Stewart, “Can I join”. “Sure, come and go as you please, We’re easy”. Stewart and the rouge raindrops spent their time teasing people on the ground with rainbows. Always moving the end away just as they approached it. They danced around the moon in a circle at night and made fog banks over the roads and rivers to scare and confuse the drivers and fishermen. Stewart wasn’t bored but he was becoming more and more uneasy with this lifestyle. There just didn’t seem to be any constructive purpose to what they were doing. Eventually he let the wind take him away. He drifted higher and higher. It got colder and colder. Poor Stewart shivered as he didn’t have a coat you know. He was lonely, cold and scared. He was afraid that if he cried he’d just evaporate away before accomplishing anything. Just then he heard a small, squeaky voice say, “excuse me but I’m lost”. Stewart looked around and there was a small speck of dust floating beside him. “Oh, Hi”, said Stewart. “Hi, my name is Fleck”, said the dust speck.. “I was in the fields down below helping the crops grow but it got drier and colder and all of a sudden a whirl wind picked me up and now I’m up here all alone”, He sniffed. Stewart told Fleck how he too became lost while searching for is purpose. “Crops are OK “, said Fleck, but what I’d really like to do is help the wild flowers that I used to see at the edge of the fields grow”. “Say, that sounds perfect”, said Stewart. Can I do it with you? “Of course”, said Fleck. Flowers can’t grow without water. ”Can I be your friend”, asked Stewart. “Oh yes”, squeaked Fleck! Stewart gave the speck a hug and in that instant Stewart felt himself begin to change. He grew and grew and was transformed …..into a colossal, white, six sided snow flake with Fleck in the center. “Hang On!” Said Stewart as the wind caught them. Stewart and Fleck flew with the wind. They went over cities and lakes and fields until finally at dark the wind began to calm and they were able to settle onto a promising forest glen that would be full of spring flowers. They were so tired they fell sound asleep. When the sun rose they found themselves surrounded by thousands, then millions, no billions of other unique snow flakes who like Stewart and Fleck wanted to do more than just go to the ocean. And in the silence of the forest they could hear a slight hiss as the other snow flakes joined them saying, “Hi Stewart, Hi Fleck”. Stewart and Fleck were no longer alone and with the arrival of the warm spring sunshine would set out together to achieve their purpose. The End
Some genuine insight and brilliant motivation by Isaac at the end there. Perhaps our purpose, is to strive for improvement and enrichment for both our selves and humanity in general.
I don't need no freakin' sense of purpose! If I don't have to work for a living, then I'll gladly spend my days sleeping late and playing video games. Actually, I'm kidding. When I was a kid, and even a teen, I would always be thinking, "If I could just get that new stereo amp, my life would be complete and I don't need anything new ever again," and, "If I could just get a car, any car, my life would be complete and I don't need anything new ever again," and "If I could just get rid of that old junker and get a brand new car, my life would be complete and I don't need anything new ever again." It took half a lifetime, but I discovered that the secret of happiness is to create things from your own creativity: travel, take college courses to learn new things, write, get published as a fiction writer, learn to play an instrument, compose music, perform your own music and upload your performance to You Tube, learn to program in Java, write Minecraft mods using Eclipse and upload them to www.spigotmc.org/resources/authors/fredashay.38349 , etc., etc...
Isaac with another solid vid. The funny thing about that of purpose, is reality was the same even when you thought you had “the answers.” So what do people just want lies??
The one reason I instantly clicked with this show from the first episode I watched is because of the combination of passion, knowledge, and optimism Isaac brings to the table. Its been a tough year but its always a good day whenever this show comes out.
Post-scarcity should be the ultimate goal of civilization. It's the lens I use whenever I'm arguing politics. To make all want for nothing. It's an unreachable goal but when I'm filling out my ballot or deciding who I vote for, it's how I see things. I don't think we'll ever reach true post-scarcity but as long as that's the ultimate goal, we can keep moving in the right direction.
15:57 you were the first to introduce me to existential dread on a fermi paradox scale and it did kinda blow my mind too. it's just so much more understandable on a personal level than pretty much all the other scenarios.
I personally call my self, post-nihilist. Concluded it, dealt with it, gone through it, and come out on the other side, as a something of a hedonist. Now it's not a matter of gloating in the conclusion of purposelessness, just accepting it and move on. I feel pleasure from doing things that entertains me, I feel pain in seeing people being miss-treated; therefore I seek pleasure, striving to not cause harm. It so happen that pursuit of knowledge is pleasurable for me, it so happens that sharing my knowledge is pleasurable to me, I don't need a synthetic purpose to just be. I just follow my instinct to do what 'feels' right, regardless if it has any tangible purpose.
Next to your content that always fascinates me, I have two questions regarding your channel: 1. How exactly do you and your team research and write your scripts? How much is reading scientific articles and such, how much are your own thoughts and such? 2. How do the user demographics for your channel look like? Especially the countries of origin interest me. Which non Anglosphere countries stick out? Lastly, I'd be very interested to see a video on the arts and culture of an interplanetary- or stellar civilization, as it's a topic I've pondered for some time now, too.
I'm surprised you didn't mention NFTs when you were talking about collectibles, like that Batman comic. We are using new tech today to make collectibles more unique and probably more valued to certain people in the future, both digitally and in real life.
Thank you for acknowledging science is a process and not an end state. Making science it's own religion is to betray the purpose of the scientific method.
You exist as a being that can experience anything you want. You live forever, and you grow bored with your agency. You enjoy limitless experiences and endless life, but forever is a long time. You seem unable to selectively erase memories, because if you could, you would probably erase amazing experiences, or store them elsewhere, to experience them for the first time again. Instead of erasing memories, because you can't, you subject yourself to very specific experiences. These are intentionally numbing, painful, and often dull, to provide contrast and context to your limitless existence. You fragment your consciousness to experience things in ways that you otherwise couldn't. As a substitute for erasing specific memories, you send yourself somewhere as a frightened little insomniac, remembering nothing. A creature not free from limitations, but one almost entirely defined by them. You regularly choose to subject yourself to tedium and lack of novelty by living a life wherein you have a crushing lack of agency over your world. When it's done, you ultimately return, having been provided with context. Your near infinite nature feels new again. You feel appreciative and amazed by all of the freedom and possibility available to you. You likely return to the love you missed... the one you always try to find during the time you are gone, the one you rarely, if ever, meet while you're there. The reunion is beyond words, for you both. Some of the others of your kind do the same thing, and some think you're weird. There are "out" buttons in this state, but the place you frequent intentionally does not give you access to them under any circumstance. You leave when you either end it due to immense misery, or live it all the way through to a natural conclusion. If you are unsatisfied due to a short stay, you go back again. You do this regularly. So do many others of your kind. The things you experience in this state are how you grow as a consciousness, how you learn, and how you grow. The world described is necessary, for all its hardships, and you are immensely grateful for your experiences there. This world is your panacea for forever. Welcome.
Oh to live in a post scarcity world....there are so much i want to do....for those who can't find a purpose other than waiting for a rapture....are too narrow in their thinking.
Just become technoprimitivist, live like a colonial person but have your super computer terminal hidden behind the log cabins wall in case something goes wrong.
No Thanks! I just want biohack and geneticly hack into my body to live longer to see humanity thrive and expand into the stars to settle in other worlds, astroids, space habitats etc. or mingle with other sapient species who are intelligent and advacnce who are like us.
That's really not much different than the brain washing techniques discussed in the video. You might struggle day-to-day grow food, hunt and gather, etc... But ultimately knowing you've got that safety net makes the whole thing kind of hollow. It's kind of like that Pulp song 'Common People' : "But still you'll never get it right / 'Cause when you're laid in bed at night / Watching roaches climb the wall / If you called your Dad he could stop it all"
@@adamlytle2615 Whether or not knowing you have the safety net makes it feel hollow is up to the individual. People who want to live a simple life as such won't suddenly curl up and die from an existential crisis because they know that an infection, starvation, or desire to watch a movie wont kill them. I choose to maintain a garden, knowing that my impact on the world ecologically is minimal, the food is grow isnt any tastier than something i can purchase elsewhere, and im not saving any money doing so. I enjoy gardening and that is all I need to make it purposeful to me. I dont expect everyone to be technoprimitivist, but I suspect a great many people would want to be. Restoring the daily toil that post scarcity takes away would be enough for alot of people to make life worth it, even if they know its unnecessary.
20:54 - I think the problem is that people are *hopeful* that finding purpose will be easier once freed from the the arbitrary constraints and distractions of chasing the dream and "playing the game" that we all play today. There is hope that things will be better. Not the same. Once that illusion is lost, what else will there be?
Purpose for all those whom following, if we are not there with thy. Permutate, dive into the sea of possibility, challenge to the skies of impossibility, let your soul shin , your ego roam and your ethos grow. So says I, so knows you.
I would argue that most first world countries already have the reasources needed to comfortably provide for all the physical needs of their citizens with enough leftover for to save for hard times or expend on luxuries, which I would consider to be for all intents and purposes be post scarcity even if the distribution isn't very fair so the issue of purpose wouldn't fundamentally change if the entire planet were to reach post scarcity status.
Love your work Isaac, been listening since many years :) I don't agree though with your notion of Nihilism. Its core 'tenet' is simply that there are no tenets, no divine truths and no given objectives to life. We and everything else exist, its up to you to make something out of it. Sure, some might decide to interprete this in a rather depressing way and view life as futile, it can also be viewed positively though, aka 'everything lies in your hands'. The later is definitely the philosophy I subscribe to :)
With something like a brain computer interface I imagine that this issue won't be as big when compared with the scenario of standard humans (edit: I was typing this just as Isaac brought this point up)
Interesting we find lack of consumption to almost equate lack of purpose. I think it shows how immature our civilization is. I imagine by the time we reach this level that we will realize that we should look in rather than out for our purpose. It will likely be based on mental training.
Not that finding purpose in a scarcity society is easy. I'd argue that for a lot of people acting as cogs in the machine, it would be easier to find purpose of they had nothing to do at all.* At least then they wouldn't be so exhausted in their leisure time. *Assuming they still had their basic needs met.
I appreciate a well thought out video on this topic, but frankly i dont get this question.. If i didnt have to panic every month about paying rent or food or the electricity bill, i wouldnt suddenly feel my life was pointless and without purpose. Purpose is what YOU create personally based on your interests and passions. Painting, music, writing, games, movies. Not just consuming, but creating your own works of art. Cars, motorcycles, astronomy, visiting other planets, diplomacy with other civilizations, trade with other civilizations, research into conciousness, research into what lies beyond the fabric of space.. Or as simple as forming a family, surrounding yourself with loved ones. Do i really need to go on? I dont understand this idea of struggling to find purpose. You will never find any purpose, if you dont create it yourself. The universe is ambivalent to your existance, it is up to YOU to find your passions and purpose in life, and pursue those things. The universe cant "tell you" what you will love to do in life. Then it wouldnt be free will, then you'd just be an automaton, a slave to the whims of pre-determined destiny. There is no problem, in a post-scarcity OR the current world, with lack of purpose. The problem lies in people not being proactive to FIND or CREATE a purpose for their lives. The entire universe is out there. If you seriously cannot find ONE thing out of the infinity of the universe (even just on Earth) to be interested and passionate about, then it's not a problem of you having no scarcity, its a problem of your psychology which would persist even if the universe threw alien curiosities and spiritual revelations at you every moment of your life. In fact, the ONLY obstacle you have right now to pursue anything you dream of, is literally the cause of living in a scarcity-world. Money, economics, resources. THAT is what limits your pursuit of purpose. To say that post-scarcity would introduce a purpose-less crisis, is insanity and stupid.
I think it's important to note that in a post-scarcity society, even the concept of 'achievement' as a finite game would be "Our ancestors purpose was survival" is not necessarily true. In fact, a research of 20+ hunter-gatherer societies shows that they have plenty of time each day beyond just meeting their survival needs. Thus why they regularly do spiritual/religious ceremonies, make games, and do art. Our ancestors had plenty of free time, thus we even came up with religion, stories, art, and tool-making for more than just survival-base usage. This gives us a blueprint to what a modern-day post-scarcity world might look like... it will look very similar to ancient, pre-historic peoples where they did not have a sense of scarcity, because they always knew they could get up the next day and find whatever they need (just like we can go to the store to get food, water, materials, they could forage through the environment to find all their needs). When the saw materials running low, they would just move along knowing that nature would replenish itself. They had an intuitive understanding of renewable energy/resources. Similarly, a modern-day past-scarcity society would have to recycle very efficiently. Humans can naturally find/invent their own sense of purpose. That purpose is usually possible to find once you give yourself time and permission to explore. Pre-historic societies seemed to have had higher levels of self-fulfillment than we do today, because they tended to view life as infinite, collaborative game, rather than a finite competition. Just surviving often does not create a sense of purpose, at least not a lasting one. We often see today that service, exploration, and experience creates (or grants) purpose. Collaboration is a huge aspect of it as well. I think the reason why so many struggle with finding/creating purpose is because most people do not have many of their needs met. Some struggle with meeting their security needs like safety (food, shelter, etc), self-esteem, or connection. And others struggle to meet their growth needs like exploration, love, and purpose. Many people trap themselves with the career ladder to try and meet their safety needs, but don't have a high self-esteem, or feel connected to an intimate community. Even more folks don't try new things, don't let themselves be vulnerable enough to experience love, or try to dream big to find that purpose. Ultimately, folks need to take the time to reflect on their needs beyond what seems like the 'basic' stuff. You know if you need a friend, or hate your job, or whatever. I hope to help folks do that reflection and become more self-fulfilled.
best way to live post scarcity is to get your brain in a spaceship and colonize the asteroids with others. There was like this book" im legion" and I thaught that that scenario was very cool
@@silask7228 oh yeah, I misspelled the tirle, english just aint my language. Yea, that book is really awesome and shows, how humanity can change If you have infinite time and ressources
I feel like the purpose will boil down to a few types of created purposes in the future: The purpose of maintaining our post-scarcity-state-sustainment mechanisms, the purpose of seeing the universe as it is (learning the present's secrets, AKA scientific research and exploration), the purpose of maintaining historical records (learning the past's secrets, AKA archaeology and related fields), the purpose of enduring to witness (learning the future's secrets, AKA simulating the future and being that torch to last until the end of time), and the purpose of enjoying life as it comes (AKA socialization). In other words, most of our post-scarcity objectives will be towards either keeping us post-scarcity, learning what secrets existence holds, or enjoying existence. Possibly multiple at once.
(discovers and starts reading "17776" (and no, that's not a typo)) (Isaac Arthur makes a video about finding purpose in a post-scarcity society on THE SAME DAY) That timing is just _freaky_. :P
I can see why Isaac didn't mention this, as there are so many militant atheists running around who are really just anti-religious activists, but religion already solved this problem. I don't want to attack atheists here, especially the reasonable ones, it's just worth noting that there are no atheist societies that lasted long than the current record holder, the Soviet Union, at 69 years. I understand the concerns about religion being backwards and all that, but as long as it gets people to do what they're supposed to, does it really matter? Being religious hasn't prevented me from learning science-related matters like reading Dawkins, who hated religion with a passion. Really, it just gives me two sets of fairly simple instructions to follow and a happiness to follow them. The first is just obeying the Word in the Bible as best I can. Most of it is actually pretty good advice for life to begin with. BUt of course I strive to understand with a little more clarity, and so I have my own theory about the purpose of life being the creation of greater order. It certainly seems built that way, and yes, I am familiar with the argument that life actually accelerates entropy as a whole. Still, it's a lot better than just entropy by itself. Isaac has done episodes before on the possibility that even if heat death is an inevitability (We don't know that) we could still build a civilization that comparatively lasts longer than this one is thought to by quadrillions of times over. For all we know, that's our purpose. God doesn't give us many specifics on that end, but considering that given all we know of DNA and the evolution of intelligence, an advanced species would naturally create a God in its own mind if nothing else, our current plight really does sound rather like something a God would do. Why couldn't HE engineer such a species across 5 billion years with certainty? He's a GOD. And if all we do is create due to selection pressure, given all the things we have built and could build, I'm a little terrified of what we MIGHT be building. Again, for all we know, we're building a vessel for Him, or we're supposed to make a God or something. No impact, no idea, He just tells us that it's folly to try to comprehend His motives and to serve our purpose. I'm good with that.
Honestly to a monk or even a person from the 1500's they're perception of our civilization would be that we are in post scarcity. Yes parts are still impoverished and suffering but what is scarce in modern America? 1/3 of the population is obese, if you stand on a corner with a sign long enough someone will literally hand you food or enough money to go buy some. And even now itd be ignorant to not notice how much people STRUGGLE to find identity and purpose. People in the 1400's didn't travel the world to discover their purpose. And if they did that was theirs. A solution; find purpose in your relationships. Imagine falling in love with a piece of driftwood as it floats in the middle of some rapids. As fast as it came it left, and to jump in after it to try and keep it forever is suicide. Fall in love with a human thatll watch driftwood float down the rapids with you.
I have an idea for a video. Biobots and/or Robot Classification. Would it be possible to create a robot that wasn't sentient, and thought just like a basic robot, but was made out of organic material like flesh, bone, ect? Could it have a brain without being sentient, or would it have to have something like a gen 1-2 synth component (from Fallout 4)? What would be it's uses? How would it be distinguished from people? Would it cost more or less to create this over a robot made of machinery? Is this even a good idea? How likely is this that it would be used, and then, how widely? What would be the terminology for this, or for just robots in general? I always categorized robots in media by their whether or not they were self aware and whether they were made of organic material. So, non-sentient robots were droids if they were made of machinery and were androids if they were made of organic material. Is there a better way to classify robots, or at least better terminology? How to clones fit into this? What separates a clone and a biobot? Is it intelligence, or how they were made. I personally believe it's how they were made; clones are made from cloning and biobots are made from "building", like the Gen 3 synth fabricator (also from Fallout 4). Would it also be possible to create non-sentient robots out of rock, wood, or just bone (like a synthetic skeleton)? If life doesn't have to be made of carbon, could you make them out of energy, gases, liquids, or whatever else? If so, what would these be called? Although, if we end up having robots made from several different types of material, would we just start creating new terminology, or stop refering to robots by their material type, and just by intelligence level?
I'm pretty sure society is already a victim of it's success. Can't imagine how bad it'd be in a post scarcity civilization. My purpose is something like.. look at all the porn, play all the video games, and read all the books. But I think I prefer that over living in hard times, where I'm not sure when my next meal will be, or if I'll survive into next week. Because "survive" isn't really a better purpose than "exist", and the latter is more comfortable.
Too much to do... Not enough time or money. I can't understand career people who retire. (Famous Sports people or Artists life documentaries) They have nothing else and are at a loss. They have no idea...
I would argue that scarcity makes life less meaningful. It makes us question, is there more to life than this? Why should I only survive instead of cultivate. The desire for knowledge and exploration goes beyond just wanting to settle or find new riches. That's a powerful force but not the only one.
Exploration, guardianship and invention are where I would start. The logic of morality is sound and the cost benefit analysis shows that. Over a long period of time investment in people pays the highest dividends. The hierarchy of human needs shows higher forms of behavior and reason exists only after basic needs are met. Of course some will abuse this system but I will chose to invest in people. We should look to the ancient past and Rites of Passage to engage the search for purpose. Art is key and technology the lock lets stick it in and turn the tumbler. BRAVO Isaac Aruthr
As one of the people surviving quarantine better than others, enjoying rental income, working remotely, not spending on a babysitter or car fuel and living 5 minutes from my favourite mountain in this country, this video spoke to me. I hope things are going well for the rest of you during this difficult time.
We are already post scarcity in food, water, and shelter, and of most medicine. Most things we need are not scarce naturally. The scarcity that creates things like homelessness or food insecurity is entirely artificial. It's created for profit. You can't profit off of a thing if it's not scarce. If it's not scarce, you can't profit off of selling it as easily. No one will pay for breathable air because it can't be effectively locked behind a paywall. There are millions of unoccupied homes and we waste a third of all food. Yet there are less than a million homeless people and a small percentage of people who are food insecure. This is intentional. If housing were a right or if people were allowed to just go build housing on the cheap (a good, small home can be built fir less than 5K), and if foid were a right, profits in those industries would drop. Why would anyone pay high rents and mortgages if they had a right to housing? We are post scarcity right now. We just choose not to be because some people profit from it.
Distilling science down to its basics: all we can do is obtain better control over matter and energy. Beyond that? Maybe we can create virtual worlds with different structure for variety. Novelty will be important for long-lived future humans.
I feel that purpose in the future will be entirely virtual. Not a lie, but a construct. I think that when nothing you do can improve the real world in any practical game, then people will just direct their focus toward virtual worlds where there are things to achieve. If you can't grind away in the real world to secure a good job and stable home life, then you will grind away in a fictional world to earn enough gold for that new set of armor. Games can be designed to adapt to the psychological needs of each player. If you benefit from a casual power fantasy, you get that. If you benefit from never-ending struggle, you could have that too.
I believe in a post scarcity society there will be a focus on being unique and fulfilled internally. Sure their will be some that will lay around getting fat and lazy in the first generation but that will become boring at some point. Humans by nature is a competitive creature. This won't ever change. The billionaires of today is proof of that. They already live in a post scarcity society.
Post scarcity may be a thing in the future, but until humanity can truly figure out how to reverse entropy and tell the 2nd law of thermodynamics to in Isaac's words "take a hike", my purpose if everything from basic necessities to the most nuanced of conveniences is covered, will be to spend my days trying to or at least attempt to keep up with the brilliant minds to solve the last question.
Mental health is a big issue that really needs to be dealt with it's like doctor phil said we can't do a x Rey on mental health so we definitely need to better understand it
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A lot of people are struggling to find a sense of purpose in _this_ world currently. This is arguably already a problem for us to deal with.
And how many people would have more sense of purpose if we had a food shortage and everyone was encouraged to go work on farms to produce more food? I have to wonder how much of the problem today is that people are just denied access to the things we deem worthy, either through lack of money (i.e. running businesses), education (curing cancer), or the like. This is part an issue of the removal of scarcity in simple things, but also part an issue of what we value. 100 years ago, many janitors took pride in their work and had no issue establishing their sense of purpose through their work.
i disagree; we all have a life goals, however vain they might be, the vast majority of us just finds them unachievable
It wouldn't be if we had healthcare and didn't have to stress about a job or having enough resources. Most stress comes from that
So much so that a man who suggests the simple task of cleaning your room as a first step to change your life, is considered a Nazi.
@@colinsmith1495 If you are woried about getting food then you are worried about getting food rather than existential questions like the meaning of life.
You collect gold coins in a video game, this was solved in the 80's.
@@aoolmay6853 Play Quake 2
Fifteen million merits? No thank you.
@@aoolmay6853 perfect insta-gib railgun mode
Videogames do tend to imply that humans desire scarcity given that virtually all videogames deny instant gratification, and goal attainment, and enabling cheats is at least partially avoided by players even in singleplayer games. This is in spite of scarcity being solvable by a simple change in 1s and 0s by game publishers.
Thats outdated...you collect waifus now. Imagine all the alien waifus!
"If you use a metal detector to find comedy you won't find it." -Isaac Authur.
"That's funny right there."- Me
BOYS WE STRUCK COMEDY GOLD!
"Beep beep" - My metal detector with a humor add-on
Take the detector and a bunch of friends to a pop concert.
"Nah, nothing here either, guys."
Isaac: *Gives solid purposes that people will have after post scarcity*
Me: "Man, I'll finally get to play all the steam games on my backlog"
Mean while me: "Man, I'll finally get to play Skyrim again."
I'm sitting of 6 years of unopened magic cards. My 6 year old better learn how to play soon.
Post Scarcity K2 civilisation Video game publishers : I think the video game market should be able to handle a quadrillion new releases per year.
Grant : . . . . No, there was time! THERE WAS TIME!
My total repertoire of games I've ever remembered playing or owning is about 3800. I think I've beaten a few hundred of those. Max a thousand. Everything from browser games or arcade games where the end condition is "get as far as you can" rather than 100% all the content program into it all the way to AAA RPGs that take longer to complete than reading the First Law trilogy.
Oh, to have post-scarcity future where I could beat every single one would be great.
@@SarevokRegor yeah, but once you get rid of the cheap knockoffs and endless cashgrab "sequels" of AAA shooters that get released each month by EA, you have a much more reasonable pool to choose from.
The last 12 months have been the most challenging of my life . With a relationship breakdown and me making positive changes in my own life . Your videos have helped me so much deal with my anxiety and depression . Thank you
Check out Jordan B. Peterson, his lectures literally saved my life.
Guess there wouldn't be any changes in my and your life if internet has never been invented, thanks to the people who invented it and changed our lifes, also guess what new advanced technologies like metaverse or something else will exist in the future that will change our and next generations lifes even beyond
As a rather steadfast nihilist, albeit of the more optimistic sort (ie. abandoning the idea of a higher purpose can be freeing), I think purpose may well become *easier* to find in the future. There are several professions/hobbies I would have loved to be a part of, but couldn't because I still have to work to get food and transport and housing as such. Without those concerns, there's many more things I could enjoy.
I often cite bonsai as an activity that I would pick up if I were immortal, because it's something that you constantly improve on, have to do regularly, and can never finish: something that can drive you forward forever. I suspect that a lot of people will turn to various arts or specialty crafts that they are only able to pursue because they don't have to worry about how large the market is or if somebody can do it better or if they can survive off of it.
As such, I think a post-scarcity society would have a level of arts and culture we've never seen before, because so many talented people are free to expand on their talent and express themselves more freely, and less talented people are able to improve themselves in an art, regardless of the skill of those around them. We'd get movements and communities of people so specific that we could never hope to define them all.
It's funny. The times in my life when i had the most free time were the times when i felt i didn't have enough free time. Passion spawns passion.
High scarcity society: Goal is almost purely "survive"
Medium scarcity society: Goal shifts toward "improve access to shrinking pool of still-scarce resources"
Low/post scarcity society: Goal becomes "sustain access to no-longer-scarce resources"
When survival is a given, we'll probably alter and expand our definition of survival to retain a sense of purpose.
Lots of seniors do volunteering, especially if they don’t need to work. That’s already an idea of what to do if you don’t need to work
That's a good point and one I wish I'd thought to say :)
That really is the difference between survival and wellbeing. You can survive without well-being...but typically not the other way around...
BASED af :P
Maslow's hierarchy of needs
So basically, Isaac found his significant other because of some recruits screwing up at boot camp.
I love those kinds of event chains!
"You're welcome." -- serendipity
I am one of those people who just wants to make art.
I do not know if that is my 'highest and best use' but it is the only thing that makes me feel like the rest of life is worth the bother.
Then you make that art 👍 make it and share it with the world.
Exactly! Do what TheCrazyCapMaster said!
It’s wild how many artist just don’t ever make anything. Kinda says something about something I’m sure.
It's amazing how many artist create without ever reaching an audience. Not that every artist is a Picaso or what not. lol.
Hey, thankyou for making art 👍
I must say man, your insights on concepts and ideas are appreciated. Thank you for your content.
I have seen people dedicate entire years of their life to exploring just one virtual world, or one series of code, or speed running a game. People, like cats, are easily motivate to entertainment.
I doubt most ppl will have issues.
It only take one-in-a-billion of those people tinkering with their hobbies to come back with a new idea that transforms the world for the better. Huh, we should incentivise that somehow. * looks pointedly at the dead end of gamification *
But most people have those issues right now
@@raaaaaaaaaam496 People are under the overwhelming violence of labor production and economic survival
@@RhizometricReality elaborate
@@raaaaaaaaaam496 Why do people lack meaningfulness?
When your value is measured by value extraction and production, those who are alienated by the material conditions, or the labor relations, or the ideology of a community or culture, have no where to run but to the concept of worthlessness imposed by an economic system. This is less dire an issue in the west, with all our frivolous distractions, but even those distractions are not enough to ignore the relationship one has with the world is as a commodity. This, surely, as a framework, is an antagonist to meaningful life
"We keep inventing jobs because of this false idea that everybody has to be employed at some kind of drudgery because, according to Malthusian Darwinian theory he must justify his right to exist. So we have inspectors of inspectors and people making instruments for inspectors to inspect inspectors. The true business of people should be to go back to school and think about whatever it was they were thinking about before somebody came along and told them they had to earn a living.” - Buckminster Fuller
Agree.
fantastic, inspired a wee early morn deep dive this has. cheers bud!
Well that was quick. I'm tempted to retract my earlier statement, that dive was absolute nonsense. Every site or forum using/related/attributed to that statement (and even the creator of the statement) are seemingly surrounded by baseless or nonsense groups/content/statements saying foolish cancel culture crap such as;
'Using the data provided by the United State Bureau of Labor Statistics, Erik Rauch has estimated productivity to have increased by nearly 400% since 1950. According to Rauch, “if productivity means anything at all, a worker should be able to earn the same standard of living as a 1950 worker in only 11 hours per week.” Source: Wikipedia (roflmao @ wiki, no studies, no evidence, just a claim of data used but no definition of said data)
Another site is clearly all for turning the world into child molesting ladyboys and erasing gender... Which fyi, is the sort of propaganda people with no purpose invent to screw the world into chaos because they just want to watch everyone suffer and commit global genocide/suicide whichever comes first;
“Men, like women, are challenged with their belief that being their gender means anything. Whether favorably associated or not, the “male” identity comes with it a freight train of cultural and sociological beliefs that are no more real than any one of the millions of cultural or social labels we attach to ourselves every day.”
That was the cherry on top and subsequent end of 'DIVE'...
Bucky wasn't wrong. There were guys in the 1930s -- Keynes may have been one of them, but don't quote me on that -- who worked out that all basic human needs for everyone in the world (food, shelter, clothing, etc.) could be satisfied if people worked something like 3-4 hours/day for a couple of days a week. Mechanisation is great like that.
@@joshuabastion995
There's a fundamental error in that logic. People don't want the same standard of living with less work, they want as high standard of living as they can afford by working as much as they reasonable can.
And another issue is that in most countries many of the basic needs are made artificially hard to satisfy to force people to work hard for someone else, so the benefits of increased productivity mostly go to the ruling elite, not the average citizen. The US is a good example.
As someone who has suffered from depression because of difficulty in overcoming the challenges of scarcity, I find it hard to sympathize with people who think post-scarcity will lead to a lack of purpose. I would think it would be the opposite; abundance leads to an explosion of opportunity, which makes finding a purpose easier.
Yeah, I often feel like there's three ways scarcity negatively affects my mental health: a constant anxiety about making the use of resources I represent "worth it" and wondering if I'm living my life suboptimally (including whether my existential dread itself makes my life less meaningful it could be for the same resource expenditure were I more able to enjoy life), worry about my continued ability to maintain existence through money into the future when my career prospects so far are non-existent (not an immediate concern for me, luckily), and a generalized feeling of guilt by complicity in various injustices in the world: so many people have it worse than me (mostly unnecessarily due to the greed of their fellow humans), and I profit indirectly off of the systems that made them that way.
I often think that, if I knew that I could guarantee my survival more or less indefinitely without needing to come up with a scheme to prove myself economically "worthy" (apparently meaning "predatory upon others or passively useful in serving the most predatory", since actually helping others doesn't usually pay very well) to exist or feeling like I'm taking proverbial or literal food from people's mouths, I'd take up hobbies that... don't seem like me on the outside. I think I'd like to paint, if I didn't feel like the time, energy, and money/resources spent on 'indulging in' that was directly taken from a limited pool. I'd definitely learn to cook and spend a lot of time cooking and eating interesting new cuisines, particularly if I could escape the guilt of overeating while people starve. I'd get more heavily into 3D printing and design/tinkering/invention/robotics if I didn't constantly ask myself whether using three hundred grams of plastic on some project was societally optimal use of it. I think I'd master crafts one after another. It takes longer to master an artform or craft than it does to invent a new one, so I don't think I'd ever run out of skills to master (and video games provide a similar treadmill of skill mastery), so it seems silly to think people would ever run out of things to do. I'm a perfectionist, and it seems I'm stressing myself out heavily over the idea that my very existence represents suboptimal (and therefore wrong) use of society's resources. To not have that anxiety, to be able to allow myself to do things without worrying about the bigger picture, sounds so freeing.
It drives me absolutely crazy with rage when people whine about how death or infirmity or homelessness or starvation or the effective slow death penalty for not finding work "the market" desires needs to be kept forever because "humans wouldn't have purpose without it", even if it's possible to get rid of it (which it may or may not be yet, but that should be an agreed upon goal for the future).
People should do things that make themselves and others happy, not be told that their inability to outperform a machine makes them useless. The measuring of a person's worth by 'productivity' in an era where pure capital in the form of automation can increasingly often do a better job than any human can is killing our sanities (and frequently literally killing us, too). Freedom from that anxiety will make people more able to live purposeful lives, not less!
@@05Matz Amen, brother!
I've always wondered what people did for a living in Star Trek. All you ever see are the people that are scientists, engineers, and doctors. What about the average person?
Maybe that is the average person? If you educated everyone to the max and were post-scarcity then everyone would be artists, inventors, engineers, musicians etc etc
@@edpistemic Perhaps, but if that is the case how can there be an Academy with entrance exams? Few people have a natural proclivity to those fields. It seems like there would be nothing to do.
Ben Sisko's dad has that restaurant in New Orleans that he appears to be running for fun rather than profit. Picard's brother ran the family vineyard and it wasn't clear what happened to the wine given the nature of the Star Trek economy.
As demonstrated in some episodes, it seems people are more or less free to pursue their passions.
Some manage bistros, restaurants, and pubs, some like to drink in or eat in those restaurants or pubs. Some like to pursue their arts, some like to raise families and take care of children. Some people like making buildings and infrastructure, and some like landscaping. There are also athletes, entertainers, and competitors of all sorts.
Yea, pretty much like normal, except due to lack of worry over most resources, the "job" market is wide open.
Space trucking
I want to know how to find a sense of purpose in a scarcity society, being obligated to do copious amounts of meaningless work to gain hardly enough to survive. To not have access to good and accessible medical treatment, being afraid of street violence. I'm sure I can have a purpose in a post scarcity one. Study, meditation, contemplation, physical activities, make art, learn new skills, play with friends, etc.
😆😆😆😆
@Almost blank and when people say "whatever you decide to do, AI will do better". And... So what? Everything I do there's a lot of people who does it better and I'm not even concerned about it. It's like, you really think you gotta be the best in the world in something to find purpose in it? Talk about some ego delusions.
@@SrValeriolete well the things that AI will do better they will do better to a point where no one will hire humans but there are many things that AI won't ever be able to do anytime soon. Take retail work for example, right now the problem is getting actual moving robots but the second that happens all retail workers will lose their jobs and be replaced by the AI robots which is obviously messed up but just how it will work. Because of this is makes searching for a career and getting your kids a proper education a lot more important but there are still many low paying jobs which an AI might be good at but just not as reliable as humans therefore humans will be used
Imagine trying to write a book being concerned in creating something better than all the genius of the past and present. That's bullshit, just write what you heart yearns. Advanced AI would actually help you by making a good editor.
I haven't watched the video, yet. Probably Isaac adressed everything I am saying here. I will watch it at lunch time.
@@angelabird85 of course. But in a post scarcity society AI do all the job and you don't have to work to have access to things.
In all the post-scarcity episodes, I'm always listening for references to the Culture novels by Iain M Banks.
I need to check those out!
@@bootstraphan6204 They're pretty good
I can not recommend the audio book versions of the Culture books highly enough... especially Consider Phelebas and Look to Windward read by Peter Kenny.... if you can get hold of them you will not be disappointed.... in both novels the ethics of the situation are teased out in the most moving way.
I really wanted to like Culture, but I couldn't get past the first one.
Read the epilogue... his explanation of the Idiran/Culture War which is the background to the novel... if that doesn’t wet your appetite to learn more then you know their not for you...
Your mention of both *_Detective Comics_* #27 and of becoming embedded in a VR environment which you've deliberately arrange to ensure you're unaware is a simulation brings to mind the idea of a vacation in which you become an eight-year-old in the Summer of 1939 whose mother runs a candy store, so you can hang out and eat chocolate-covered peanuts and read comic books and pulp magazines all day, with your adult tastes and sensibilities suppressed so you can enjoy these things fully.
Don't forget an unexplainable urge to keep certain comics in a cool, dark and dry environment for a few decades.
@@VainerCactus0 No, if you really were immersed in the mind of an eight year old in the Summer of 1939, you would fold back the pages of your *_Detective Comics_* #27 while eating a drippy meatball sandwich, and later trade it, and your copy of *_New York World's Fair Comics_* #1, for a candy bar.
Glasses or groceries? Yeah I was at that point for years and now I finally got new glasses after using old ones for about 10 years and it has really changed my life a lot.
In the same boat myself... Been picking groceries over new glasses for about 4 years too many now.
Glad to hear your eyeballs got the love they deserve!👍
@@2pi628 Yeah it makes me miserable that I can read your comment on the computer screen as an example.
I dream of the day we can look back on the kind of either/or decision as a barbaric anachronism.
Lots of seniors do volunteering, that seems like a plausible way forward in a post scarcity society
Hmm... I'd say nah because for "work" to be, requires someone that needs it. Now if you have no scarcity at all, there'll be very few work needed to be done, and everyone will volunteer cause they have nothing else to do, and then the
work becomes the scarce resource...
It's harder than you think to find volunteer work that isn't a scam.
Most volunteer work involves helping those in need - something that theoretically would not exist in a post-scarcity world. Thus, volunteer work may be completely unnecessary.
What would they volunteer to do?
8:15 that's so true 😂, i grew up in a slamp in Brazil, later in life i became an engineer, but today i find my self thinking about saving 2 or 3 USD in my bills, even though it doesn't make any sense, my time worth much more than that
Food, water, data, and walks outdoors. My one friend/wife and I'm gravy. As long as I'm alive actually I'm winning in my book. Countless ways I could not have so this is ok... Wish humanity loved life, knowledge, and our home planet but my voice is small. Well done as always bro.
just being alive? thats a late game existential crisis already made
@@pyroromancer you're absolutely correct. Being alive is not winning for everyone 👍
@@rohanshah6882 alive is achieved at minimal instinctual effort.
why not be alive and being number 1 at a videogames!
@@pyroromancer agreed 🙌
Basically, you mix stoicism and buddhism, some of Surak's teaching. He did resurrect Vulcan after a nuclear war lol.
I'm not saying that I'm joyous, just content. It's interesting to watch events and learn history. So many interconnected parts, but so disjointed and unaware of their commonality.
A post-scarcity world is a dream world for creatives, innovators, leaders, and those that follow them.
Exactly!
Harvard Prof. Avi Loeb speaks of this frequently in lectures and interviews!
"No one tries to monopolise what is abundant. No one tries to corner the market in air."
Neo-Liberal economics: "Write that down! Write that down!"
Can confirm, am a creative type. I don't have the problem of a sense of purpose, I have the problem of not living in a post-scarcity society, haha.
@@TheAmazingCowpig
What if ai could make art or write stories? Than there wouldn't be any point in you doing either. Would there?
@@MrNote-lz7lh An AI writing stories or art doesn't remove the value in myself creating them myself. An AI does not necessarily share the same artistic visions as I do, it may not explore ideas in the same way I would.
Especially in a post-scarcity society, where commercial value has much reduced value and less necessity of focus, and pursuing self-fulfillment is more easily achievable because of freedom from needing any sort of commercial viability.
Thank you for being one of the few futurists I can think of who actually considers the bounds of science and what it can provide. So many people discount the value of good philosophy but then complain about the futility of their lives and it really starts to get frustrating listening to them
purpose can only be searched if conciousness exists. conciousness is a prerequisite for every purpose. conciousness/will is the deepest internal layer we can dig to for purpose prerequisites, so it makes for a sturdy core motivator.
purpose is a question of value of something, and valueing creates value. therefore conciousness must have value as a first step and be therefore always be deepest level purpose. this is valid, as a search for purpose without a conciousness doing the search, defining purpose or defining validity itself, is paradoxical. conciousness creates validity, as its the only measuring standard of it.
Thanks captain obvious.
@@MrNote-lz7lh its obvious when you read it.
But this obviousness makes this lesson easily forgetable, making pwople drift into nihilism. but this shows there can be a true universal morality (wherever it may end up).
bloody beautiful episode Isaac! What a great time to be a techo-optimist! Thank you for putting your time into this.
"We live only to discover beauty, all else is a form of waiting."
+PerfectAlibi the *combine* agrees(!)
Yeah but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I really don’t think there was ever a time people didn’t have existential dread, nor shouldn’t they. “Humans are alive to expedite the heat death of the universe” - lol an awesome Isaac quote
If beauty is in the eye of the beholder it cannot truly exist.
But it isn't. Search up why humans prefer symmetrical objects. And you will discover beauty is more objective than you think.
@@mopnem the quote really needs an addendum: "- or find a means by which to delay or prevent it."
@@johnrockwell5834 Yes, but the objectivity comes from our perspective based on our species condition, so the point still applies.
I am so glad that this channel exists. Issac Arthur runs commentary runs in the back of my mind when I am writing my Eclipse Phase campaigns. I do think for myself, but having the another, more intelligent viewpoint on it really helps me figure out what I need to research more.
Anyone who has a trust fund, or a pension, is living in a post-scarcity world, or at least post-desperation.
Definitely more of the latter. They might view it as post-scarcity but everyone else is well aware of the scarcity
I'm never content on my investing returns. Last year I saw a ridiculous 67% increase and I still feel I could have gotten more out of it if it weren't for a few decisions.
But I don't worry about money, that's nice. Though I never want to spend any of it either, because it will decrease my returns.
@@dotz7616
67% isn't even crazy, especially for 2020. I got like 1600% in about 18 months. And I'm pissed because 2000% was within reach when tech stocks crashed. I have to keep reminding myself that most people are happy with a 10% annual return.
I’ve been struggling with some crap regarding purpose and the last segment where u give advice...bruh 😭 I’m at work. Uncool.
Thank u for spiritually listening to and answering the unspoken question 👍🏻👍🏻
Isaac Arthur - as someone with a science degree you seem to be an excellent philosopher. You and your team and collaborators have produced another excellent video. Thanks.
If you have the bottom of Maslow's pyramid fulfilled, you can focus on the upper layers
Which still redirects towards to lower layers desires.
Upper layer comes from being in control of your lower layer
You can build a new layer!
@@leonardpearlman4017 With blackjack and hookers!
it seems I have had my pyramid blended since "sex" is in the lowest tier
Brilliant, timely, and concise. Thanks for the share.
I have a few thoughts:
First, even though, as you pointed out, we are almost post-scarcity in some areas, we still create a sense of purpose for ourselves. Similarly, people living in post-scarcity societies will still be able to create a sense of purpose. Yes, it will differ from person-to-person, but it does already. Some people might create their purpose around helping other people through teaching, or around uncovering new historical knowledge, or similarly big things like trying to do something big for the entire civilization. Still others might have more of a "low-level" sense of purpose, like being a restaurant owner, a bartender, etc. The contests of what drives those types of purposes will likely change in the future, but the overarching ideas of the purposes people create will not.
Second, I thoroughly enjoyed your personal note at the end of the episode. I am a high-achieving student in school, but because of the times we live in, I don't consider that my purpose. Instead, I consider it as an offshoot of a purpose I have created for myself--discovering new knowledge and helping people in whatever way I can, both for the sake of it and also so I can use that to, hopefully, one day do something for humanity itself. Big goals and a sense of purpose around those big goals are only possible due to the time I live in and my environment, because I don't have to worry about basic needs, or even doing well in school. Sure, I do it, but again, it's not my main purpose, and whether I knew it or not, I don't think it's ever been. Even before I knew "Oh, I created a sense of purpose for myself", doing well in school was only an offshoot of the fact I loved learning new things, which is something I consider to be one of my purposes now and know it is. In a similar way, I met some absolutely wonderful people three years ago, and it was only until about half a year later I realized I had subconsciously created a purpose for myself around them, which was ensuring I let them know they mattered to me. And guess what? Around the same time I realized I had done that, the opposite happened--they let me know I mattered to them! Isaac, you said when you find something new, you won't immediately know it'll turn out to be what you create/find your purpose around, and that is true. I also realized a year and a half ago I had subconsciously created a related purpose--doing something to spread knowledge, and maybe even do something for humanity itself someday. Just like the examples I gave previously, it was something I had enjoyed thinking about for a long time, but it wasn't until that point I realized it was something that could be considered a created purpose because it manifested out of that thing I loved doing. And, this might sound nuts, but you and this channel had a part to play in that. So, thank you so much for helping me realize in the way you did I had created an extremely fulfilling purpose out of something I didn't even know I did. I don't know how that happened and how this channel made me realize it, but it did. You did.
This episode gave me a lot to think about, as you can tell by the insane length of this.
The Eldar: so, there was another way to get a purpose in life?
“You see, money doesn’t exist in the 24th century. The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity.”
-Captain Jean-Luc Picard
Captain Jean-Luc Picard... "of the Federation Starship."
I find that notion outdated. Money is a medium of exchange that people have to work to get, enables gradual gratification, and brings... purpose.
Wasn't that from a movie with questionable canonicity?
I’d say it’s just as canon as any other Star Trek episode involving time travel. Unlike the Kelvin Timeline films that are sort of their own thing. And in regards to money, even in Star Trek, trade obviously exists and people work and get some benefits out of it. Currency may not really exist (in the federation) but it seems people work for more than just “bettering themselves”. And there are limited resources at times and things like transport credits have been mentioned which imply people can’t do whatever they want all the time and that there are limits. But seeing someone like Miles O’Brian getting super stressed out because he has to fix everything, and not getting paid, it might be questionable if it’s really worth it, but I guess in their universe it is worth it somehow from having a reliable place to stay, food, and entertainment, maybe that’s all some people need in life on a starship. I fricken love Star Trek tho.
@@lovingnature7168 yeah, Star Trek was "Optimistic Science Fiction", the newer stuff is more a dystopian Dark Space Fantasy. that and the bloom and lens flairs got to be a bit overdone of late, SpaceX gets better video from a GoPro stuffed in a metal box, lol.
LLAP
something that occurred to me that differs from your purpose being survival vs becoming successful in some way. you can only fail at surviving once, you can fail at any other endeavor many many times and that can have a detrimental effect of it's own.
Wow this may be the most motivating SFIA yet, loved it! I can also relate on so many levels with you Issac beeing an Army vet myself I have had many similar experiences, traving and meeting friends all over the place. I hope this resonates with many others as well.
The Raindrop Who Lost His Cloud
Once upon a time there was a raindrop named Stewart Stewart lived in a small white cloud that floated lazily amidst many others in the late fall skies. One morning he awoke wondering, “What is my purpose?”. He drifted from raindrop to raindrop in the cloud asking the same question and receiving the same answer over and over again, “Why, to grow up and fall to the lands below and go to the rivers and eventually on to the great ocean.”. That didn’t satisfy Stewart. He as afraid he’d fall onto a desert and just evaporate away or even worse, fall onto a city street and get sucked down into a dark smelly sewer. “I want to do more with my life”, said Stewart. I wonder what the raindrops in other clouds want to do when they get big?
Eventually his curiosity grew so strong that he went way to the edge of the cloud and peered out at the other clouds. They looked so close but no matter how loud he called out they couldn’t hear him. Stewart felt a strong breeze and jumped in. Up-up-up he rose and then onwards to another cloud. The next cloud looked a bit bigger than the one he was from and the drops were a bit bigger and almost ready to fall. “What are you going to do when you fall?”, asked Stewart. “Why, to grow up and fall to the lands below and go to the rivers and eventually on to the great ocean.”, they replied one after another. “Oh, well”, sighed Stewart.
Stewart went back to the edge of the cloud but he was now all turned around in his directions. The clouds all looked the same! The breeze had shifted too! He was hopelessly lost. Stewart cried so hard he was afraid he would evaporate away. Oh, What shall I do wailed Stewart. A big thunderhead loomed downwind of the cloud he was on. “With so much power maybe they can help”. Stewart gathered his courage and leaped back into the wind. But alas, as he approached, lightning flashed, thunder roared, and hail stones flew by saying, “Hop on!, Were gonna dent some cars and break some windows before we set off for the great ocean!”. “No, no thanks”, replied Stewart. So off he drifted again.
He felt so lonely. Eventually he joined up with a gang of rouge raindrops. They said that their goal was to just have fun. At last, a different purpose. “That sounds great”, said Stewart, “Can I join”. “Sure, come and go as you please, We’re easy”. Stewart and the rouge raindrops spent their time teasing people on the ground with rainbows. Always moving the end away just as they approached it. They danced around the moon in a circle at night and made fog banks over the roads and rivers to scare and confuse the drivers and fishermen. Stewart wasn’t bored but he was becoming more and more uneasy with this lifestyle. There just didn’t seem to be any constructive purpose to what they were doing.
Eventually he let the wind take him away. He drifted higher and higher. It got colder and colder. Poor Stewart shivered as he didn’t have a coat you know. He was lonely, cold and scared. He was afraid that if he cried he’d just evaporate away before accomplishing anything. Just then he heard a small, squeaky voice say, “excuse me but I’m lost”.
Stewart looked around and there was a small speck of dust floating beside him. “Oh, Hi”, said Stewart. “Hi, my name is Fleck”, said the dust speck.. “I was in the fields down below helping the crops grow but it got drier and colder and all of a sudden a whirl wind picked me up and now I’m up here all alone”, He sniffed. Stewart told Fleck how he too became lost while searching for is purpose. “Crops are OK “, said Fleck, but what I’d really like to do is help the wild flowers that I used to see at the edge of the fields grow”. “Say, that sounds perfect”, said Stewart. Can I do it with you? “Of course”, said Fleck. Flowers can’t grow without water. ”Can I be your friend”, asked Stewart. “Oh yes”, squeaked Fleck! Stewart gave the speck a hug and in that instant Stewart felt himself begin to change. He grew and grew and was transformed …..into a colossal, white, six sided snow flake with Fleck in the center.
“Hang On!” Said Stewart as the wind caught them. Stewart and Fleck flew with the wind. They went over cities and lakes and fields until finally at dark the wind began to calm and they were able to settle onto a promising forest glen that would be full of spring flowers. They were so tired they fell sound asleep. When the sun rose they found themselves surrounded by thousands, then millions, no billions of other unique snow flakes who like Stewart and Fleck wanted to do more than just go to the ocean. And in the silence of the forest they could hear a slight hiss as the other snow flakes joined them saying, “Hi Stewart, Hi Fleck”. Stewart and Fleck were no longer alone and with the arrival of the warm spring sunshine would set out together to achieve their purpose.
The End
Thank you Isaac. It might be morning for you uploading these but in Australia the timing makes it a great way to end the day.
Same for Hawaii!
Some genuine insight and brilliant motivation by Isaac at the end there. Perhaps our purpose, is to strive for improvement and enrichment for both our selves and humanity in general.
I don't need no freakin' sense of purpose!
If I don't have to work for a living, then I'll gladly spend my days sleeping late and playing video games.
Actually, I'm kidding.
When I was a kid, and even a teen, I would always be thinking, "If I could just get that new stereo amp, my life would be complete and I don't need anything new ever again," and, "If I could just get a car, any car, my life would be complete and I don't need anything new ever again," and "If I could just get rid of that old junker and get a brand new car, my life would be complete and I don't need anything new ever again."
It took half a lifetime, but I discovered that the secret of happiness is to create things from your own creativity: travel, take college courses to learn new things, write, get published as a fiction writer, learn to play an instrument, compose music, perform your own music and upload your performance to You Tube, learn to program in Java, write Minecraft mods using Eclipse and upload them to www.spigotmc.org/resources/authors/fredashay.38349 , etc., etc...
"To live is to suffer, to survive is to find some meaning in the suffering" - _Friedrich Nietzsche_
Isaac with another solid vid. The funny thing about that of purpose, is reality was the same even when you thought you had “the answers.” So what do people just want lies??
The one reason I instantly clicked with this show from the first episode I watched is because of the combination of passion, knowledge, and optimism Isaac brings to the table. Its been a tough year but its always a good day whenever this show comes out.
Post-scarcity should be the ultimate goal of civilization. It's the lens I use whenever I'm arguing politics. To make all want for nothing. It's an unreachable goal but when I'm filling out my ballot or deciding who I vote for, it's how I see things. I don't think we'll ever reach true post-scarcity but as long as that's the ultimate goal, we can keep moving in the right direction.
Thanks Isaac and Team for making these, so thought provoking.
15:57 you were the first to introduce me to existential dread on a fermi paradox scale and it did kinda blow my mind too. it's just so much more understandable on a personal level than pretty much all the other scenarios.
I personally call my self, post-nihilist.
Concluded it, dealt with it, gone through it, and come out on the other side, as a something of a hedonist.
Now it's not a matter of gloating in the conclusion of purposelessness, just accepting it and move on.
I feel pleasure from doing things that entertains me, I feel pain in seeing people being miss-treated; therefore I seek pleasure, striving to not cause harm.
It so happen that pursuit of knowledge is pleasurable for me,
it so happens that sharing my knowledge is pleasurable to me,
I don't need a synthetic purpose to just be.
I just follow my instinct to do what 'feels' right, regardless if it has any tangible purpose.
Same. Except I feel pleasure in seeing other people suffer so I'm quite happy with the world how it is today.
22:58 is probably the best end of an episode I've ever heard on this channel, or on youtube at all.
I don't even mind listening to the paid promotions because i love and respect you so much.
The music is always great.
Next to your content that always fascinates me, I have two questions regarding your channel:
1. How exactly do you and your team research and write your scripts? How much is reading scientific articles and such, how much are your own thoughts and such?
2. How do the user demographics for your channel look like? Especially the countries of origin interest me. Which non Anglosphere countries stick out?
Lastly, I'd be very interested to see a video on the arts and culture of an interplanetary- or stellar civilization, as it's a topic I've pondered for some time now, too.
This topic is unexpectedly timely for me. Thanks Issac.
This video made me cry
Thanks so much for the plug, Isaac! This was a very fun episode to work on!
I'm surprised you didn't mention NFTs when you were talking about collectibles, like that Batman comic. We are using new tech today to make collectibles more unique and probably more valued to certain people in the future, both digitally and in real life.
I love this topic.
1 Million subs by 2022? Def possible with all these quality content!
Thank you for acknowledging science is a process and not an end state. Making science it's own religion is to betray the purpose of the scientific method.
You exist as a being that can experience anything you want. You live forever, and you grow bored with your agency. You enjoy limitless experiences and endless life, but forever is a long time. You seem unable to selectively erase memories, because if you could, you would probably erase amazing experiences, or store them elsewhere, to experience them for the first time again.
Instead of erasing memories, because you can't, you subject yourself to very specific experiences. These are intentionally numbing, painful, and often dull, to provide contrast and context to your limitless existence. You fragment your consciousness to experience things in ways that you otherwise couldn't. As a substitute for erasing specific memories, you send yourself somewhere as a frightened little insomniac, remembering nothing. A creature not free from limitations, but one almost entirely defined by them.
You regularly choose to subject yourself to tedium and lack of novelty by living a life wherein you have a crushing lack of agency over your world. When it's done, you ultimately return, having been provided with context. Your near infinite nature feels new again. You feel appreciative and amazed by all of the freedom and possibility available to you. You likely return to the love you missed... the one you always try to find during the time you are gone, the one you rarely, if ever, meet while you're there. The reunion is beyond words, for you both.
Some of the others of your kind do the same thing, and some think you're weird. There are "out" buttons in this state, but the place you frequent intentionally does not give you access to them under any circumstance. You leave when you either end it due to immense misery, or live it all the way through to a natural conclusion. If you are unsatisfied due to a short stay, you go back again. You do this regularly. So do many others of your kind. The things you experience in this state are how you grow as a consciousness, how you learn, and how you grow.
The world described is necessary, for all its hardships, and you are immensely grateful for your experiences there.
This world is your panacea for forever.
Welcome.
Welp. There goes my brain
Some guy: What is your purpose?
Me: to make myself happy and live a fun life until i die🤗
Oh to live in a post scarcity world....there are so much i want to do....for those who can't find a purpose other than waiting for a rapture....are too narrow in their thinking.
Just become technoprimitivist, live like a colonial person but have your super computer terminal hidden behind the log cabins wall in case something goes wrong.
This
That's called Minecraft.
No Thanks! I just want biohack and geneticly hack into my body to live longer to see humanity thrive and expand into the stars to settle in other worlds, astroids, space habitats etc. or mingle with other sapient species who are intelligent and advacnce who are like us.
That's really not much different than the brain washing techniques discussed in the video. You might struggle day-to-day grow food, hunt and gather, etc... But ultimately knowing you've got that safety net makes the whole thing kind of hollow. It's kind of like that Pulp song 'Common People' : "But still you'll never get it right / 'Cause when you're laid in bed at night / Watching roaches climb the wall / If you called your Dad he could stop it all"
@@adamlytle2615 Whether or not knowing you have the safety net makes it feel hollow is up to the individual. People who want to live a simple life as such won't suddenly curl up and die from an existential crisis because they know that an infection, starvation, or desire to watch a movie wont kill them. I choose to maintain a garden, knowing that my impact on the world ecologically is minimal, the food is grow isnt any tastier than something i can purchase elsewhere, and im not saving any money doing so. I enjoy gardening and that is all I need to make it purposeful to me. I dont expect everyone to be technoprimitivist, but I suspect a great many people would want to be. Restoring the daily toil that post scarcity takes away would be enough for alot of people to make life worth it, even if they know its unnecessary.
as long as snacks and drinks exist, i will have purpose
20:54 - I think the problem is that people are *hopeful* that finding purpose will be easier once freed from the the arbitrary constraints and distractions of chasing the dream and "playing the game" that we all play today. There is hope that things will be better. Not the same. Once that illusion is lost, what else will there be?
there is something powerful about creating a place that is better for your children. That is the factor that is the most important to most people.
Purpose for all those whom following, if we are not there with thy. Permutate, dive into the sea of possibility, challenge to the skies of impossibility, let your soul shin , your ego roam and your ethos grow. So says I, so knows you.
Last time I was this early kidnapping was a valid form of courtship.
😃"...and consent was ALWAYS implied!" [Does tap dance] "...wakkity, smackity-dooooooo!" [Jazz hands!]
I would argue that most first world countries already have the reasources needed to comfortably provide for all the physical needs of their citizens with enough leftover for to save for hard times or expend on luxuries, which I would consider to be for all intents and purposes be post scarcity even if the distribution isn't very fair so the issue of purpose wouldn't fundamentally change if the entire planet were to reach post scarcity status.
Thanks Isaac for making today great, I hope we all can make tomorrow even better.
Love your work Isaac, been listening since many years :) I don't agree though with your notion of Nihilism. Its core 'tenet' is simply that there are no tenets, no divine truths and no given objectives to life. We and everything else exist, its up to you to make something out of it.
Sure, some might decide to interprete this in a rather depressing way and view life as futile, it can also be viewed positively though, aka 'everything lies in your hands'.
The later is definitely the philosophy I subscribe to :)
With something like a brain computer interface I imagine that this issue won't be as big when compared with the scenario of standard humans (edit: I was typing this just as Isaac brought this point up)
Downloading, I am going to listen to this on my way to my second covid vaccine.
Interesting we find lack of consumption to almost equate lack of purpose. I think it shows how immature our civilization is. I imagine by the time we reach this level that we will realize that we should look in rather than out for our purpose. It will likely be based on mental training.
"...if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
That is an oxymoron.
@@shorewall Kinda, but a good one.
This is why Commander Riker learned the sax
Not that finding purpose in a scarcity society is easy. I'd argue that for a lot of people acting as cogs in the machine, it would be easier to find purpose of they had nothing to do at all.* At least then they wouldn't be so exhausted in their leisure time.
*Assuming they still had their basic needs met.
Somehow, I think your air scarcity argument was inspired by Spaceballs...
16:54 and a third group that just doesn’t care. If you doubt that group could exist, I am (presumably) living proof of the possibility.
(Any/all)
I can totally picture Germans trying to use a humor detector to discover what humor is.
I appreciate a well thought out video on this topic, but frankly i dont get this question..
If i didnt have to panic every month about paying rent or food or the electricity bill, i wouldnt suddenly feel my life was pointless and without purpose. Purpose is what YOU create personally based on your interests and passions.
Painting, music, writing, games, movies. Not just consuming, but creating your own works of art.
Cars, motorcycles, astronomy, visiting other planets, diplomacy with other civilizations, trade with other civilizations, research into conciousness, research into what lies beyond the fabric of space..
Or as simple as forming a family, surrounding yourself with loved ones.
Do i really need to go on?
I dont understand this idea of struggling to find purpose.
You will never find any purpose, if you dont create it yourself.
The universe is ambivalent to your existance, it is up to YOU to find your passions and purpose in life, and pursue those things. The universe cant "tell you" what you will love to do in life. Then it wouldnt be free will, then you'd just be an automaton, a slave to the whims of pre-determined destiny.
There is no problem, in a post-scarcity OR the current world, with lack of purpose.
The problem lies in people not being proactive to FIND or CREATE a purpose for their lives.
The entire universe is out there. If you seriously cannot find ONE thing out of the infinity of the universe (even just on Earth) to be interested and passionate about, then it's not a problem of you having no scarcity, its a problem of your psychology which would persist even if the universe threw alien curiosities and spiritual revelations at you every moment of your life.
In fact, the ONLY obstacle you have right now to pursue anything you dream of, is literally the cause of living in a scarcity-world. Money, economics, resources. THAT is what limits your pursuit of purpose.
To say that post-scarcity would introduce a purpose-less crisis, is insanity and stupid.
I think it's important to note that in a post-scarcity society, even the concept of 'achievement' as a finite game would be
"Our ancestors purpose was survival" is not necessarily true. In fact, a research of 20+ hunter-gatherer societies shows that they have plenty of time each day beyond just meeting their survival needs. Thus why they regularly do spiritual/religious ceremonies, make games, and do art.
Our ancestors had plenty of free time, thus we even came up with religion, stories, art, and tool-making for more than just survival-base usage.
This gives us a blueprint to what a modern-day post-scarcity world might look like... it will look very similar to ancient, pre-historic peoples where they did not have a sense of scarcity, because they always knew they could get up the next day and find whatever they need (just like we can go to the store to get food, water, materials, they could forage through the environment to find all their needs). When the saw materials running low, they would just move along knowing that nature would replenish itself. They had an intuitive understanding of renewable energy/resources.
Similarly, a modern-day past-scarcity society would have to recycle very efficiently.
Humans can naturally find/invent their own sense of purpose. That purpose is usually possible to find once you give yourself time and permission to explore. Pre-historic societies seemed to have had higher levels of self-fulfillment than we do today, because they tended to view life as infinite, collaborative game, rather than a finite competition. Just surviving often does not create a sense of purpose, at least not a lasting one. We often see today that service, exploration, and experience creates (or grants) purpose. Collaboration is a huge aspect of it as well.
I think the reason why so many struggle with finding/creating purpose is because most people do not have many of their needs met. Some struggle with meeting their security needs like safety (food, shelter, etc), self-esteem, or connection. And others struggle to meet their growth needs like exploration, love, and purpose.
Many people trap themselves with the career ladder to try and meet their safety needs, but don't have a high self-esteem, or feel connected to an intimate community. Even more folks don't try new things, don't let themselves be vulnerable enough to experience love, or try to dream big to find that purpose.
Ultimately, folks need to take the time to reflect on their needs beyond what seems like the 'basic' stuff. You know if you need a friend, or hate your job, or whatever. I hope to help folks do that reflection and become more self-fulfilled.
best way to live post scarcity is to get your brain in a spaceship and colonize the asteroids with others. There was like this book" im legion" and I thaught that that scenario was very cool
@@silask7228 oh yeah, I misspelled the tirle, english just aint my language. Yea, that book is really awesome and shows, how humanity can change If you have infinite time and ressources
I feel like the purpose will boil down to a few types of created purposes in the future:
The purpose of maintaining our post-scarcity-state-sustainment mechanisms, the purpose of seeing the universe as it is (learning the present's secrets, AKA scientific research and exploration), the purpose of maintaining historical records (learning the past's secrets, AKA archaeology and related fields), the purpose of enduring to witness (learning the future's secrets, AKA simulating the future and being that torch to last until the end of time), and the purpose of enjoying life as it comes (AKA socialization). In other words, most of our post-scarcity objectives will be towards either keeping us post-scarcity, learning what secrets existence holds, or enjoying existence. Possibly multiple at once.
(discovers and starts reading "17776" (and no, that's not a typo))
(Isaac Arthur makes a video about finding purpose in a post-scarcity society on THE SAME DAY)
That timing is just _freaky_. :P
I can see why Isaac didn't mention this, as there are so many militant atheists running around who are really just anti-religious activists, but religion already solved this problem. I don't want to attack atheists here, especially the reasonable ones, it's just worth noting that there are no atheist societies that lasted long than the current record holder, the Soviet Union, at 69 years. I understand the concerns about religion being backwards and all that, but as long as it gets people to do what they're supposed to, does it really matter?
Being religious hasn't prevented me from learning science-related matters like reading Dawkins, who hated religion with a passion. Really, it just gives me two sets of fairly simple instructions to follow and a happiness to follow them. The first is just obeying the Word in the Bible as best I can. Most of it is actually pretty good advice for life to begin with. BUt of course I strive to understand with a little more clarity, and so I have my own theory about the purpose of life being the creation of greater order. It certainly seems built that way, and yes, I am familiar with the argument that life actually accelerates entropy as a whole. Still, it's a lot better than just entropy by itself. Isaac has done episodes before on the possibility that even if heat death is an inevitability (We don't know that) we could still build a civilization that comparatively lasts longer than this one is thought to by quadrillions of times over. For all we know, that's our purpose.
God doesn't give us many specifics on that end, but considering that given all we know of DNA and the evolution of intelligence, an advanced species would naturally create a God in its own mind if nothing else, our current plight really does sound rather like something a God would do. Why couldn't HE engineer such a species across 5 billion years with certainty? He's a GOD. And if all we do is create due to selection pressure, given all the things we have built and could build, I'm a little terrified of what we MIGHT be building. Again, for all we know, we're building a vessel for Him, or we're supposed to make a God or something. No impact, no idea, He just tells us that it's folly to try to comprehend His motives and to serve our purpose. I'm good with that.
Honestly to a monk or even a person from the 1500's they're perception of our civilization would be that we are in post scarcity. Yes parts are still impoverished and suffering but what is scarce in modern America? 1/3 of the population is obese, if you stand on a corner with a sign long enough someone will literally hand you food or enough money to go buy some. And even now itd be ignorant to not notice how much people STRUGGLE to find identity and purpose. People in the 1400's didn't travel the world to discover their purpose. And if they did that was theirs. A solution; find purpose in your relationships.
Imagine falling in love with a piece of driftwood as it floats in the middle of some rapids. As fast as it came it left, and to jump in after it to try and keep it forever is suicide. Fall in love with a human thatll watch driftwood float down the rapids with you.
I have an idea for a video. Biobots and/or Robot Classification.
Would it be possible to create a robot that wasn't sentient, and thought just like a basic robot, but was made out of organic material like flesh, bone, ect? Could it have a brain without being sentient, or would it have to have something like a gen 1-2 synth component (from Fallout 4)? What would be it's uses? How would it be distinguished from people? Would it cost more or less to create this over a robot made of machinery? Is this even a good idea? How likely is this that it would be used, and then, how widely?
What would be the terminology for this, or for just robots in general? I always categorized robots in media by their whether or not they were self aware and whether they were made of organic material. So, non-sentient robots were droids if they were made of machinery and were androids if they were made of organic material. Is there a better way to classify robots, or at least better terminology? How to clones fit into this? What separates a clone and a biobot? Is it intelligence, or how they were made. I personally believe it's how they were made; clones are made from cloning and biobots are made from "building", like the Gen 3 synth fabricator (also from Fallout 4).
Would it also be possible to create non-sentient robots out of rock, wood, or just bone (like a synthetic skeleton)? If life doesn't have to be made of carbon, could you make them out of energy, gases, liquids, or whatever else? If so, what would these be called? Although, if we end up having robots made from several different types of material, would we just start creating new terminology, or stop refering to robots by their material type, and just by intelligence level?
I'm pretty sure society is already a victim of it's success. Can't imagine how bad it'd be in a post scarcity civilization. My purpose is something like.. look at all the porn, play all the video games, and read all the books. But I think I prefer that over living in hard times, where I'm not sure when my next meal will be, or if I'll survive into next week. Because "survive" isn't really a better purpose than "exist", and the latter is more comfortable.
Too much to do...
Not enough time or money.
I can't understand career people who retire. (Famous Sports people or Artists life documentaries)
They have nothing else and are at a loss.
They have no idea...
I would argue that scarcity makes life less meaningful. It makes us question, is there more to life than this? Why should I only survive instead of cultivate. The desire for knowledge and exploration goes beyond just wanting to settle or find new riches. That's a powerful force but not the only one.
Exploration, guardianship and invention are where I would start. The logic of morality is sound and the cost benefit analysis shows that. Over a long period of time investment in people pays the highest dividends. The hierarchy of human needs shows higher forms of behavior and reason exists only after basic needs are met.
Of course some will abuse this system but I will chose to invest in people. We should look to the ancient past and Rites of Passage to engage the search for purpose. Art is key and technology the lock lets stick it in and turn the tumbler.
BRAVO Isaac Aruthr
As one of the people surviving quarantine better than others, enjoying rental income, working remotely, not spending on a babysitter or car fuel and living 5 minutes from my favourite mountain in this country, this video spoke to me.
I hope things are going well for the rest of you during this difficult time.
@Mark Zimmerman chaos is full of contradictions
We are already post scarcity in food, water, and shelter, and of most medicine. Most things we need are not scarce naturally.
The scarcity that creates things like homelessness or food insecurity is entirely artificial. It's created for profit. You can't profit off of a thing if it's not scarce. If it's not scarce, you can't profit off of selling it as easily. No one will pay for breathable air because it can't be effectively locked behind a paywall.
There are millions of unoccupied homes and we waste a third of all food. Yet there are less than a million homeless people and a small percentage of people who are food insecure.
This is intentional. If housing were a right or if people were allowed to just go build housing on the cheap (a good, small home can be built fir less than 5K), and if foid were a right, profits in those industries would drop. Why would anyone pay high rents and mortgages if they had a right to housing?
We are post scarcity right now. We just choose not to be because some people profit from it.
Distilling science down to its basics: all we can do is obtain better control over matter and energy. Beyond that? Maybe we can create virtual worlds with different structure for variety. Novelty will be important for long-lived future humans.
@11:11 anyone else annoyed the man in the maze is trapped?
I feel that purpose in the future will be entirely virtual. Not a lie, but a construct. I think that when nothing you do can improve the real world in any practical game, then people will just direct their focus toward virtual worlds where there are things to achieve. If you can't grind away in the real world to secure a good job and stable home life, then you will grind away in a fictional world to earn enough gold for that new set of armor. Games can be designed to adapt to the psychological needs of each player. If you benefit from a casual power fantasy, you get that. If you benefit from never-ending struggle, you could have that too.
I believe in a post scarcity society there will be a focus on being unique and fulfilled internally. Sure their will be some that will lay around getting fat and lazy in the first generation but that will become boring at some point. Humans by nature is a competitive creature. This won't ever change. The billionaires of today is proof of that. They already live in a post scarcity society.
Post scarcity may be a thing in the future, but until humanity can truly figure out how to reverse entropy and tell the 2nd law of thermodynamics to in Isaac's words "take a hike", my purpose if everything from basic necessities to the most nuanced of conveniences is covered, will be to spend my days trying to or at least attempt to keep up with the brilliant minds to solve the last question.
Mental health is a big issue that really needs to be dealt with it's like doctor phil said we can't do a x Rey on mental health so we definitely need to better understand it