Ford Flathead Comparison: V8-60 hp and 59 AB
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 มี.ค. 2022
- This time at the Quick Speed Shop I'm going to do a comparison test of two Ford flathead V8 engines. One is the 239 cu in, 24 stud 59 AB engine and the other is the 136 cui in, 17 stud V8-60 engine.
V8-60: 1937-1940
136 cu in
17 stud
60 hp
tin side or cast iron side depending on year
Model 81 carb
59 AB: 1942-1948
239 cu in
24 stud
95-100 hp
Model 94 or 97 carb
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My dad was an old time racer and told me they took a Ford 60 hp and sleeved it out to produce 120 hp with 3/4 cam, port and polished and used it in a Midget racer and 1/4 mile oval dirt track racers.
In my hometown of Brockville, Ontario, Canada was a company called the St. Lawrence Lawrence Engine Company which as well as making two cycle Put Puts also converted Ford "T", "A" and V-8 for marine use.
The smaller 2,2 liter V8 had been developed in England for British and European markets where taxation based on nominal horsepower (based on cylender bore) as well as higher priced fuel made the smaller engine more attractive. Since the owner of the St, Lawrence Engine Company raced 2.2 liter hydroplanes when North American engines were no longer available basic 2.2 liter V8s were imported from England or Europe.I believe that English production lasted into the late 1950s and in France when Ford got tired of dealing with the French Govenment, the rights to both designes were aquired by the French SIMCA company and made well into the 1960's. I have seen a 1960 French SIMCA army truck with the larger 3.9 liter flathead engine owned by a collector of military vehicles in Oshawa.
My old man bought a Simca Vedette when I was a little kid in the early 1960’s here in Australia it was a fairly expensive car compared to our Holdens and the Ford Falcons of the time and basically a car that had its roots back to when Ford in Europe sold the design to the French Simca company and it had the Ford V8 60 series sidevalve but was updated in the horsepower department but Simca being part of the British Rootes group was taken over by Chrysler along with and other marques along with cars like the Sunbeam Tiger but these were dropped by Chrysler when their 318’s wouldn’t fit to replace the Ford 289’s in them, the Vedette was our family car for a few years until my old man then bought a new Studebaker Cruiser, but the Vedette with its essentially V8 60 was kept and my mother used it for a further few years until my older sister got it when she got her drivers licence, it turned out to be quite reliable but even when Chrysler Australia sold them here it still was a modern car at the time with a prewar designed engine! and I believe the old Ford V8 60 was still manufactured by a now Chrysler owned Ford/Simca Vedette in Brazil Sth America into the late 1969’s and maybe the early 1970’s with the same little V8 60 but now with an overhead valve Hemi Head modification!
I believe that the V8 pilot (English Ford) & very early Skoda's allso use the small block flathead
Kiwi Rod
Thanks for educating me
Hey thanks a lot for this flathead comparison video. I keep learning new facts about flatheads and your descriptions gave me a whole bunch of new education.
Thanks. I'm not too much of an expert either, but am getting more knowledgeable on this project and hope to do some more flathead stuff in the future.
The swap from 60 hp to 59 AB surely will make the '37 fly down the road. Thanks for the 'heads' comparison.
I hope so. Almost doubling hp.
Very interesting video, thank you.
I collected a number of flatheads about 30 years ago...I think I'll pop by my old home and see if they are still there...
,,,,,,,Thanks for sharing your time and hobby................I'm a 72 yr young machinist ; engine builder.....My love of FoMoCo has led me to explore the flatheads.....I see the early engines were just paltry.........the 59 series is what made history,,,,,,thanks...................
I think any flathead after '36 is good as that's when they went to regular bearings instead of babbitt. The 8BA seems to be the one people want as they are highest hp, reg distributor, modern bell housing, etc. I'm partial to the 59AB.
Very well done...Thank you for doing that comparison! It was interesting to see them together, displayed like that! I'd never heard about the welded stainless panels on the early blocks, either! Respect! Be safe!
Yeah, the tin side blocks are really cool! Ford had some interesting things they tried back then.
An old guy who used to come in our shop told us that right after the war he bought a nice 37 coupe with a 60HP engine. He said that you could never pass a truck on rt66 and even driving around St Louis you were running it floored a lot. Later he bought a wrecked Ford with the 85HP engine and swapped that into his Ford. Even if it got much better economy he said that the 60HP wasn't worth it due to the lack of torque and HP when compared to the 85. The 60 is a neat looking little engine though.
60hp out of a small light 2.2 liter(136ci) in that small of a package was a great achievement in only 5 years after the 3.6 liter (221ci) that only made 65hp when introduced, and didnt make but 85hp in 1937. That wouldve been a great way to 3x the hp of a Model T and keep the extra weight down in the old days (v8-60 were 300lbs, vs the 221ci at 550lbs)
Actually the 40 hp Model A and Model B engines were preferred to the V8-60 hp. The 4 bangers had alot more torque and there was a lot of speed equipment for them. The V8-60 hp found a good following in midget racers and boats. The small displacement/low torque combined with a 4.44 rear gear limited it to about 50 mph on the flat in street Ford cars.
@@QuickSpeedShop yeah now that you said that and i looked it up...the model A's bigger displacement 4cyl at only 4:1 compression made 40hp and 130ftlbs over the V8-60 at 60hp and 98ftlbs. I bet a model A 4cyl with 6:1 compression and a small cam alone would make 65hp and 165+ TQ
37-39 share parts.
40 different.
Taper Water Pumps are 37-38, Square are 39-40 and only work in Correct Cover. Early 37 Water Pumps dont have a BARB for the Drip Catch (Rubber Bumper).
V860 Trans, there are 3. 4 bolt top CAR, 6 Bolt Top Truck (uses 85hp gears) 40 side shift.
True V860 trans has the starter bendix cup casted onto it.
60 uses a N series Tractor style Starter.
Can also use a 9n/2n oil pump rebuild kit for a 60.
37-39 Blocks have the breather in the bellhousing (so does a 40 Service block though).
Distributor is the same as its Big Brother.
60 Fuel Pumps are different. Arm inside is different but the diaphragm is the same.
Stromberg 81 was used till mid 1939 then a Holley 92 was used (has a 81 on it on the body opposite the float bowl)
There are 4 V860 Blocks.
"Tin Side"
37-39 All cast
40
40 Service
Only 2 part #s for a V860.
Prefix "52" for 1937
Prefix "92" for 1940
Note- 35-36 Export Only 60hp was "tin side also".
It looks nothing like this 60.
Water pumps were in the heads and has 2 exhaust ports per side.
Only know of 3 that still exist and only 1 is complete
Thanks for the info
Thought I'd find Marty here, he's the expert!
I've heard of that export-only 60 horsepower. Always wondered if it was actually produced.
Just picked up a 1937 Ford panel truck, and said "what the heck is this motor"? Thanks for the informative video, have been out of the panel trucks for 30 years, just got back into them at 71! Sold my last one to Hemmings motor news, a 1935 International panel truck.
Later there was a stock 110HP Mercury flat head. the earlier flat heads the distributor was down in the front with two distributor caps. and the Mercury flat head the distributor was up on the passenger side. with a single modern style distributor cap. and they said Mercury on the head's. and they had head studs instead of bolts. and they had adjustable tappits. before that valve adjustment was done by grinding the valve stems. the Mercury flat heads were a popular swap. into fifties Ford cars and pick-ups.
All 1949-53 Ford/Mercury flatheads had a single distributor in the front, leaned over. The only thing special about the Mercury was that it had a 4 inch stroke crank giving it more hp and torque than the Ford 8BA.
There's probably a reason the heads on the 60 were replaced. My dad worked on these as a young man. He said in the days before permanent antifreeze, alcohol and water were used, resulting in a lot of corrosion. The usual method of removing those aluminum heads involved a cold chisel and a big hammer to break up the head into pieces.
Could be what happened. Lots of things happened to these old flatheads along their journeys.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,corrosion,,,,wow............................chisel em off,,,,,wtf...........
Many years ago (50s) my uncle owned a 37 with a 60 in it. My cousin got his driver's license and did the same swap as you. He left the 4.44 gear in the back and used to go stoplight racing with it.
Good story! Yeah, that's about all the 4.44 was good for. This car cruised at 50 mph pretty good, but much faster and it was just screaming it.
Awesome video, I don't know much about flatheads This was educational. Thanks for the video
👍
Wish you had talked about 1948 thru 1953 pick-ups and also the comparison to canadian-made flatheads to Mercury's that were made in Canada vs USA !
I think you're referring to the EAC flathead. I don't own one so I don't know the differences between that and an 8BA. This was more to show the size difference between the 60hp and 85hp engine.
I’m a proud 8BA owner. Flatheads forever.
Nice 👍
I did not know that the 60 hp was that much smaller , My dad and I rebuilt a 1953 flathead - 110 hp bored out .060 over , and adjustable lifters and dropped it in a 1947 F-100 . it was my work truck for seven years. she would run 90 mph with no hickups well almost. I think she ended up with a cracked valve seat .
My understanding is that the V8 60 was developed for the European Fords. Fees were based on engine displacement.
I think it was available in Europe in 1936.
Great info, thanks for the video, have you covered the tube front axles ?
Not all V8-60 cars came with the tube axle. My car doesn't have one and I have seen several others that didn't as well.
I'd love to get one of these engines in working order for a gokart build. It may not have been much for a full size car but in a relatively light gokart it would be pretty spry.
Also occurs to me that if a modern 5-speed manual out of something like a Chevy S-10 or Ford Ranger were slid in behind it the top speed issues would disappear overnight.
They used to run V8-60s in midget race cars and hydroplane boats back in the day.
@@QuickSpeedShop Ye I don't doubt that. In something like where 60hp is enough they'd be pretty spry! And if they could be found, hopup parts would perk 'em up too just like the big'ns.
Can't wait to get my 46 Super Deluxe. Itt'l have a full size 59AB in it. Don't plan on doing much hotrodding to it but it's gonna be nice to hear that burble under me every day!
@@TestECull They can be souped up to 90 horsepower. Today probably more.
I think for the 59AB the crab-style distributor was used mostly from '42-'46. During 1946 Ford switched to the two-piece cap with the ignition wire boots. My '47 Tudor Sedan has the 2 piece dist. cap.
Thanks. This engine was rebuilt and missing OG parts. I don't know if it's a '46, 7 or 8.
The "divers helmet" withe the two piece cap and coil on top was used on early models of Ford V8s, Your '47 should have the "crab" style but is was not unusual to sea earlier style distributors on later rebuilt engines.
1st never was syncronized, until sometime in the 60s. A non-syncro transmission is a crash box, like that of a Model A. You have to double-clutch, especially when down-shifting.
I know that. That's what I meant. You can't downshift into 1st gear while moving like you can in a modern transmission, Model A or '32-'48. Only 2-3 are synchronized.
There's a fellow that builds miniature replicas that are fully functional out of some of the oddest stuff. The v8-60 would be perfect for that if he hasn't already tried that. I dont remember the name of the fella but he has done all sorts of miniature cars that are fully drivable, and something like that would probably be freaking awesome in it probably even way overpowered.
Cool 👍
Many thanks for the great video. How do the oil pans (sumps) compare please? I don’t suppose they are interchangeable (as the gearboxes are)?
No, the oil pan is different. Pretty much the only thing things that physically interchange are the generators and carbs (although the 60 uses the small bore 81 carb). All the other 60 hp stuff won't fit the 21 and 24 stud engines.
@@QuickSpeedShop many thanks!
I am jealous.
It's just old Ford junk
I remember V-8 60 engines powering midgets in the 1960s.
Are these a direct swap between the big and small flatties? Engine mount holes line up and everything?
No. V8-60 engine mounts, transmission shifter location, clutch linkage, clutch, throttle rod, choke rod, radiator are different. If you watch my 1937 Ford build series you'll see everything I had to do to swap over to 85 hp.
@@QuickSpeedShop Thanks for the info!
In the late sixties, we had a project ‘41 coupe that never came to anything because we couldn’t find a good shop to rebuild the engine. So help me please just for reminiscing: which one of these engines would have been in it?
If it still has the stock engine I believe it would have been a 239, 85 hp. I think the 221 was phased out in 1940. The V8-60 was only made up 1937-1940.
Is the 60 narrower overall than the 59ab? It looks shorter and not as tall but not narrower. Just curious because it seems like this could be a fun swap for some small and light cars.
Yes, it's narrower and shorter. They were used a lot in midget race cars and hydroplane boats back in the day
When I was about 9 years old my uncle came home from the military and he was a hot rodder all his life he brought back a little v60 that was all aluminum looked cool he told me that it was a racing engine and this was in 1964 my dad and his brother my uncle moved from calif. To wa.state and it sat in the barn and I I left home in 2975 and I don't know what happened to it just an old story
Cool!
Do you have to change the front suspension to take all of that extra weight?
Not really. V8-60 spring has 11 leaves instead of 12 like bigger engine car. I think it will be ok.
@@QuickSpeedShop It was always an issue with coil springs.
When do you put the flatheads in motorcycles?
I'm not doing that, but Honest Charley, owned by Coker, puts the V8-60s in bikes.
The Ford transmission was indeed syncronized.
Only 2nd to 3rd is. 1st is not.
Are the starters the same ?
No, they're not.
Do you plan on building up the V8-60?
Not right now. They are really expensive to build.
What was horse power in the full size flat head?
85 hp. Went as high as 95 in later years
Thanks for info great channel
👍
Isn't there a bigger flat head from Ford a 358 ci one ???? I think it went in trucks ??
Yes. I believe it's a 336 cu in or something like that.
@@QuickSpeedShop yes that sounds rite , I remember seeing one years ago , it's like a big block flat head, weighs like 700 pounds , and is about as big again as the V8 60 is to the 239 flatty .
Lotta motor... can you handle it?
Lotta motor... can you handle it?
You know it!