ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ธ.ค. 2017
- Skip to 20:00 for motor testing. Part numbers are listed below:
Stepper Motors: www.omc-stepperonline.com//?t...
Servo Motors: www.teknic.com/products/clear...
CNC Control: www.centroidcnc.com/centroid_...
Machines: www.precisionmatthews.com/
Fusion360: aklam.io/c5qzM3
DMM Servo Products:
DYN2-TLA6S-00 Drive
57N-DHT-A6TD1 Motor 3Nm
S-350-48 Power Supply
CAMP-LH3-SSP Motor Cable
CAEN-LH3-TSP Encoder Cable
CA-MTUSB-FR1 Programming Cable
FastToBuy Hybrid Stepper Products:
HBS860H Driver
57HBS30 Motor 3 Nm
Leadshine Programming Cable
Longs Motor Products:
DM542A Driver
23HS9430B Motor 2.8Nm - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
Great video highly educational and practical.. as I am going forward with this diy cnc business, what ever I can think of or wherever I stumble, you seem to be few steps ahead with the answers! At this point I will stop asking questions and start digging deeper - and probably find more of your videos from few months ago!
Thank you to both of you, awesome content(Three if I count Winston!)
Hi, this was a really good and basic compare of the stepper and servo engine, for all us diy users. thanks :-)
You are welcome. I'm glad you liked it.
This video was the best comparison vid I've seen
Great video and very informative! Thanks for putting this together.
Thanks for doing the test. I am just in the process of changing over from open loop NEMA 23's to closed loop NEMA 34's. I found I was maxing out a little north of 2500mm / min (100 ipm) under light cutting load with 2 x NEMA 23's on the X and 1 NEMA 23 on the Y. I'm changing the the two NEMA 23 425 Oz-In motors for one NEMA 34 1800 Oz-In motor on the X and another on the Y. I'm leaving the Z as a open loop NEMA 23.
Thank you for this, very useful overview especially now that servo prices have come down to within reach for a home CNC build.
You're welcome. I'm very impressed to see all the cool stuff that is creeping into the DIY price point. The DMM servos are awesome - very smooth. I'm not sure who else is selling servos at that price point but I have noticed a lot of smaller CNC machines are shipping with DMM drives in them.
So if i buy a total of 3 of these high end motors instead of using the driver your showing could I use the the gecko 540 with the 48v power supply?
Mitch Occic servos don’t typically need drivers if ac. They would wire through a properly rated circuit breaker and switch. If running hybrids as long as drivers are rated for same or within spec voltage the gecko would work.
This is very helpful video. I am also involved with a job for motion controller system development. You have a good job! Thanks
Great video! now I can quickly show people why I am going to be upgrading to ac servos next month, funny enough with a Hicon Integra controller, thats how i ended up here looking for Hicon videos. I know its a badass controller, wanted to see it on a CNC router. I have a CNC Router Parts Pro4824 and I am upgrading it to a fixed gantry machine with linear rails and ballscrews, AC servo motors, and the hicon, then possibly an ATC spindle. Great channel man, subbed!
Excellent work as usual Franco.
Thanks. I've had a lot of people ask about the DMM drives so I figured I'd better make a video. Had I not been so dumb when I was initially testing them, they would have been installed on my milling machine. Now that I've seen how well they work, I'm really impressed. I'll be installing them on my Techno Isel lathe, for sure.
Great demo/comparison....and nice work by camera operator! Way to play it cool when the rag got snagged by the motor too...lol
Thanks.
Great info there Franco. Nice to see you in front of the camera once again as well. Ciao, Marco.
Thanks. I'm glad you liked it.
Very good and informative video I'm just converting a mini mill into CNC so can use this Infos perfect. And I've also learned that Wednesday the cat is a very good assistant as seen at the end of the vid 👍🐱😁🐈😜
Thanks, now i want servos everywhere...
thank you for the video!
Would have been fabulous to stick the motors to the table so they don't move + attach something to their end so we can visualize the movement. Just suggestions for later videos :)
Excellent video, thanks
This is one awesome video!!! Congrats! and btw. Great CATsting! haha! one question though, you introduced the third power supply as if it is a 48VDC PS. but the tag on the servomotor says 60VDC input. Being that the case, the performance of that motor would be greatly impacted if it were to run with a 60VDC PS.
Hi. Voltage is an interesting topic for stepper motors. More voltage will increase speed but will also increase heat. Check this out: th-cam.com/video/5D7px0r0pUE/w-d-xo.html
Parabéns ! Ótimo trabalho.
Nice video, thanks.
I see the Winston could not stay away from the action, and seemed especially interested in launching an in-depth safety investigation around the the shredded shop towel incident
I did want to kick in my experience of FastToBuy regarding potential Customer Service around the "B" option. I got the closed loop steppers and drivers last fall and have had a blast with them since (no problems, work as described... my only regret is that I feel don't have knowledge to tweak/push them to their max)
BUT, what most surprised (and impressed) me, was when someone from fasttobuy randomly emailed me later to say they were soon visiting Dallas/Fort Worth, and were really curious how my application had turned out. They asked to visit 'my shop' (which I call 'the garage'). Long story short, I ignored their email, but came away with impression they are folks who won't leave you hanging if things aren't right. *nobody has paid me to say any of this, (but I'm not opposed to someone showering gifts in arrears for the free endorsements =)
Cool. That was a good experience with FastToBuy. Thanks for sharing it.
hello Franco, thank you for posting these awesome videos !. I have a question for you: if I try to import a model of a part created in Solid Works into the Acorn software, what file format should that be ?
I Like how you separated the S W cos you are running Cr ac ked soft. I learn`t so much running cracked software and when I showed my boss the benefits of SW he bought a legal copy.
Really Impressive, Great information!
I think if you have a Tordial Power supply the Caps would not be needed as they are built into these power supplies.
Thanks. Yes, you're probably right about the capacitors. For this go around, I just used everything the DMM people recommended. It seems to work pretty well. They told me you can run two drives/motors off of one switching power supply. I like the fact that they DYN2 stuff is so small - it makes it easier to pack all of the electronics into the control box.
You should always use caps to smooth out the DC ripple
The problem with a switching power supply is with the current surges caused by the motors; they will shut down. A linear supply doesn't have this problem. A better solution would be to run the logic off a separate supply, but not possible with this type of controller. Note this is a LOW VOLTAGE servo controller for NEMA 23. Next level up to 34 uses line voltages! See the DYN4 controller. Since the DYN4 use line voltage, there is no added power supply.
Great video.
I've been curious about doing a CNC conversion for a bench top mill like a PM-940. If you use a servo motor for the x-y-z travel, is the finish quality affected since the servo's aren't locked in their rotation like a stepper. For example, will there be some "chatter" if you have one or more of your axis stopped and you are drilling or facing off one side? If you use servo's, do you have to take measures to prevent this or is the self correction so immediate that it doesn't matter?
Thanks
I think you will find that servos are superior to steppers in most cases. All commercial CNC machines use servos. But, for the money, it is hard to beat the closed loop steppers for DIY projects.
Sir may you tell me which servo motor and drive for coin design engraving on iron.and how much feedback and rpm of spindle required , for rasting, second for semiclean. And third for final finishing touches.
Can't you hook up the hybrid stepper driver to a linear encoder mounted to ? axis and get absolute position of ? axis and use less expensive balls screws?
Hey, I'm a super novice in this field however I run a waterjet at work and have a 4x4 plaz table in my garage.
What would be the best class for me to take to learn the 101 on Nema style setups closed loop with a single axis touch screen user interface?
If you could compare the DMM servo to the Clearpath servo interms of price and performance that would be interesting.
What are the part numbers on the power supply/ drivers/ motors and torques? Are you running windows 10 on all of them? Great demo
Thanks. I added the part numbers to the description of the video. I'm using the Centroid Acorn CNC control system which is a Windows 10 based product. It seems to run very well under Windows 10 as long as you follow their installation instructions.
Hi, Franco. First of all, thank for sharing your knowledge. Do you know if it is possible to use a regular encoder with a “no intelligent “ stepper motor?
Hi. I've never seen it done. However, I suppose that if you had the correct encoder it would be possible. But, keep in mind, you can buy a closed loop motor and driver for less than $100 US so you have to determine how much time/expense you are willing to give to experiment.
You should have an encoder on these motors when you are testing, I'd like to know what the error is. Need a linearity test.
I find the accuracy/linearity with the 542 is pretty bad. At 1000 steps per rev I see an error of more than 1 count. It is smooth but it does not go to the intermediate steps reliably. I am interested in the linearity and accuracy of the closed loop stepper. The servo solution is best but the low end torque in the stepper is desireable. So does the closed loop stepper have ok accuracy with microstepping?
IMS has some steppers with integrated drives and encoders, they are competitive in price. Also stepperonline has some interesting offerings.
Franco, Great video, bery informative. Can I pick your brain for a minute? I am trying to decide between a hybrid stepper and a servo motor to run the spindle on a cnc rose engine lathe spindle. The goal is to get a fine resolution on the C axis, ideally .001 of a degree (360000 steps per revolution) Some of that can be accomplished with gear reduction (one turn of spindle can be several turns of the motor). What would you recommend? If I choose the servo motor, can this be used as a regular motor for turning wood, then also for the
Hi. Steppers generally don't make very good spindle motors as they become less efficient as RPM increases. Servos do a much better job of running RPM like a spindle motor. If you only needed the low RPM, then I think you'd be very happy with a closed loop stepper system. But, if you also want to run higher RPM, the safer bet would be a true servo type of motor.
Hi Mate,
I am going to carry a steel pallet (overall weight of 700 kg) over rollers with 2 stepper motors on each sides, do you reckon "Nema 42 CNC Stepper Motor Bipolar 30Nm" is enough for this application?
Franco, the servo does not have infinite resolution of position, it is limited by the resolution of its encoder.
maybe i missed it but i did not hear you mention motor tuning..many DIY builders just loose it when it comes to tuning steppers. closed loop steppers and servos are self tuning are they not? Thank you for the great vid.
There are many settings for the closed loop steppers that can be tuned in the software once you have the motors mounted on your machine. But, I almost never change them. I usually go with the default settings and things seem to work just fine.
Thanks for the video! Is there much gain running full servos for a laser engraver/cutter? I was going to upgrade my steppers to hybrids but now wonder what benefit would I get from full servos? My laser is 130 watt and most cut 1/8” acrylic sheets so I’m looking to get as much speed as I can to increase cut times. Thanks for any help!
Hi. As steppers increase in RPM, they loose torque. The risk with a conventional open loop stepper would be lost steps translating into error in your geometry. The Clearpath servos are amazing. My friend purchased my router (which has clearpath servos on it) and he does a lot of diamond drag cutting. He loves the speed (and silence) with the Clearpath servos. Another great option would be closed loop steppers.
These work great: www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/nema23-closed-loop-stepper-motor-system-hybrid-servo-kit/hybrid-servo-drive-kl-5080h/
You won't have all of the performance of the Clearpath servos, but I'll bet you'll be happy with the results.
30:07
lil jumpscare for you :D
Would be cool if you specified if those motors' software runs on Linux. Thanks for the comparison !
Thank you for the info. I do wanna ask you something. If I was to order the last option for 400+ can I also buy 2 more motors and drivers to use the same power supply or will this cost me around 1200 because I have to use each motor with 1 power supply and 1 driver a piece.
Well, you need to make sure your power supply has enough current to power all of your drives. You can have one power supply but make sure it is of the correct size.
Question on the cables for dmm servos. If I understand the encoder cable has plugs on each end. Does that mean the cable has to be cut to run it thru an aviation plug or other plug. Is this correct?
You are correct. The DMM cables have connectors on both ends.
Can you please tell me what servo mechanism that does not have position detection circuit.
Yes a servo motor is better but that was a nice little trick you pulled with temperature readings on a servo you take the temperature on the reflective sticker that will read the temperature lower good one.
Sticker or no sticker, I can tell you with confidence, the servos run much cooler than steppers.
Clean and organized wiring helps with the troubleshooting (and makes a safer work environment). I looked at the wires going all over the desktop and thought wth...
Love the windows xp
Sir you given good knowledge , but may you tell me me which brand servo motor best for coin sculpture design engraving on iron. Because I already use Panasonic servo motor and drive but it's given space , on job like hair lines on job.so please tell me what configuration should be in CNC machine for iron engraving sculpture design on iron.i am coin die engraver . Please help me
Hello. There are many factors that cold be affecting your surface finish. It may be the step over parameter in your CAM software. The rigidity of your machine may also be a factor. Tooling selection and speeds and feeds will also make a big difference. Regarding the stepper/servo parameters, I'd say that if you increase the minimum resolution to anything less than .0005" you will probably be able to get a really good finish if everything else is working correctly. I hope this helps.
Sir I am not understanding your mean.sir I am coin die engraver , I tried many Machine for coin design engraving on iron but they gives poor results.my mean their engraving is not sharpness and smooth.i use 150 feed back and 24000 rpm spindle speed but , much hairline seen on job .and seen burr also . I am not understanding what configuration regards for coin design engraving machine
Hi im in the uk can help by tell me what motor you have got running your milling machine z axis spindle i need more speed hope you can help thanks ROB UK
I'm still running the stock motor. However, when I upgrade, I'll be trying this: www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/g0704-bf20-pm-25mv-kit/milling-spindle-1100w-1-5hp-max-6000rpm-brushless-motor-and-driver/
Hi Franco,
I ordered 4 closedloop Nema 34 with powe supply for each and the drivers. My question since I don't know about electronics, do I need a breakout board ?if so any specific kind?
Hi. I'm guessing you are building a CNC Router? You will need some sort of board to send the step and direction pulses to the drivers. I like the Centroid Acorn Software/Hardware system. However, you can go in many different directions. Some people use GRBL - which is nearly free.
Hello Sir,
I have problems about of the accumulation error of the stepping motor when running for a while then I have reset to homing point it’s come back . I should be fixing the drive or the motor or anything sol.? Could you help to recommend me?. Thank you in advance if you recommend.
Hello. Try slowing down the frequency of your CNC interface board. It may be generating pulses faster than the drive can read them.
@@bradfrancola8485 Thank you, let me try to do that.
I think pairing the hybrid stepper with a digital driver should do quite a bit better than the analog driver and would provide a decent compromise for a lot of people
Great video!
Also, if you are planning on building a robot, take note that if you want it to operate like the more expensive industrial models, you will need either a strain wave gear (Harmonic drive) or a Cycloidal drive.
An harmonic drive system is to prefer. Google the difference.
Both can be made if you either have a 3D printer, or even better - a CNC milling machine and lathe.
great video! can i control the hybrid stepper motor and get encoder information with an arduino?
You can use the arduino to output the step and direction pulses. But, you won't be able to read the encoder values.
@@FrancoCNC I want to control AC easy servo leadshhine (Hybrid stepper) with arduino, How it can be done?
@@MohamedMSaber-vy2zd th-cam.com/video/iY_4YOlpqyI/w-d-xo.html
Feeding electricity for the Hybrid HBS86H controller AC Or DC?
sir, the power range for HBS860H driver is 20~80VAC/DC30-110V. Thanks
I am very confused. The middle of the road solution seams to be a servo solution (both motor and driver say servo on them) but you refer to it as a hybrid stepper. What have I missed?
Hi. I suppose the "middle of the road solution" is technically a servo in that it does have encoder feedback. But, the motor is a stepper motor and stepper motors use a lot more energy than the DMM servo (which is a TRUE servo). I'm not an electrical engineer, but there is a performance difference between stepper technology and "servo" motor technology. I really like the hybrid stepper motors and I use them for all of my projects. But, if you want the best performance, then the (true) servo is the way to go.
I guess it is just marketing hype then. The labels actually say servo on both the motor and driver. No, a stepper with encoder feedback is not a servo, it is just a stepper with closed-loop feedback. Thanks for clarifying that it is indeed a stepper.
What power supply were you using for the DMM you should leave them at the 500 gear setting and a 70v power supply and you will go much faster than that
You are right - the DMM stuff can go pretty fast. I didn't have the Acorn set to it's highest frequency. If I did, I'm sure I could have gone faster.
Where you using 70v power supply this plays a big part in how fast the motor can run, if using low voltage the motor can't reach max RPM before it will fault out, output step/per also and control frequency will play into it as well
It's been a while since I've seen the Windows XP Fisher Price interface.
You need to have a separate power supply and driver for every motor?
Hello. You do not. You can power multiple drives from a single power supply so long as it can deliver enough power. Often, it is cheaper to buy multiple smaller power supplies than on large one.
I might not be 100% sure, but I think you need a driver for each stepper motor. However, if you are planning on building a 3D printer, you can use an Arduino based system, thus eliminating the need for separate drivers for each motor.
But most motors, if equipped with an encoder - you get a driver with it (bundle?). Cost around 150€
But as Brad Francola said - no, you have 1 power input that divides itself to each driver.
You have to count how much power each driver requires, and then get a power supply sufficent enough to power them all.
Dude ur awsome.Give us the dmm stuff on a machine for the love of god lol..franco is the shit everyone.
You have all three types of motors, Your opinion whats value for the money? asking cause i don't want to be disappointed when i buy mind, you have any extra motors you would sell?
Can we use 5axis mach3 interface board with leadshine servo driver(ES2DA808)?
Sure. You can use any step/direction type of controller.
Change the step rate in the CNC12 wizard to 400khz for the DMM setup. Try again. It's in tab 4 I believe
Hi Marty. I'll give that a try. Have you ever changed the step rate? How does it work for you?
I am running DMM DYN2 at 400khz. Only drives so designed can take the higher freq. It allows to run at high resolution without totally sacrificing rapids.
Once you increase the step rate, you should increase the max rate (Rapid)
Dmm servo motor controlar laptop this is possible ans thanks very much
Nice vedio
I’m trying to decide between a stepper or a servo for a 4th axis for my CNC. All of the other axis’s run stepper motors. What would you suggest?
Hi. I'd go with closed loop steppers as they offer many of the benefits of servos but are much better at holding a fixed position. You will find a lot of good options here: www.omc-stepperonline.com//?tracking=5e66c8d3ae793
You may also like this: th-cam.com/video/Gq03WN99FoE/w-d-xo.html
Franco thanks, just looked at the 2 products again and it wasn’t a servo it was actually a closed loop stepper motor vs open loop so I guess it’s an easy choice and I go the closed loop
Hello sir, Yesterday finally i brought leadshine ESD808 servo driver with ESM23480 servo motor with Mach3 5axis breakout board. How can i run 5th axis in Mach3 software, because Mach3 does not show 5th axis. Thx in advance.
You can find software for free on the internet that will let you design your own Mach3 screens to show the 5th axis.
The middle option clearly states hybrid servo drive and motor. But you keep calling it hybrid stepper drive and motor? Are these interchangeable terms?
Technically, when you combine an encoder with a stepper motor it can be called a Servo. Many companies will do that. But, there are fundamental differences between stepper motor technology and true servo motor technology. For instance, you will never see a stepper motor on a commercial CNC machine - they always use true AC servo technology. But, these closed loop steppers are AWESOME for DIY CNC conversion projects.
I'll will be converting a Grizzly G0704 mill to CNC. For that quality of machine, and just home garage use, which system would you recommend? Speed is not important.
Well, I used to use open loop steppers but I will only buy closed loop from now on. Closed loop can't loose steps and that eliminates many of the frustrating issues in a DIY conversion. I would only buy open loop if budget is a major consideration - but you are only going to save about $300.
Thanks for the info. I'll go with closed loop.
Buen día, no hablo inglés. Dónde consigue 3l software del servomotor.
www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/wp-content/plugins/download-monitor/download.php?id=504
Do you think the DYN2 servo has enough power to run an 8x8 router?
Possibly - but I would not risk it. Go with bigger motors.
Hi Franco- Thanks for your videos.This one is very interesting. With regards to the Acorn board, how come it will only run on Windows 10 if it is a stand-alone board or do I have that wrong?
Hello. The Acorn Board operates along with the CNC12 software (which requires a Windows 10 PC). Check this out for more information: www.centroidcnc.com/centroid_diy/acorn_cnc_controller.html
Hello Sir, I'm going to buy leadshine's servo motor and servo driver ES2DA808 which required 50-80 VAC or 70-100VDC , Kindly giude me which power supply i should buy.
Hi. I always use switching DC power supplies. Make sure the PS has enough amps to supply the motor plus a a few to spare. If you pull more amps than the PS can deliver you will have problems. In my opinion, amps are more important than voltage. Higher voltage can give you more speed but you will also generate more heat in your motors.
thanks for mentioning fasttobuy! We will do better in the future. And here is the English manual for FASTTOBUY driver HBS860H for your reference: Hope that helps:-)
English manual: drive.google.com/open?id=1cst6QpfSEwMlwSz2AwH_pgPmg5A0bFPO
Protuner Software: drive.google.com/open?id=1OM7RrHEqQ3CpUYepldcv_HeR870Yxhau
Hello Sylvia - it's very nice to hear from you. Thank you for providing this information. I've purchased many of your blue closed loop stepper drives/motors and they have worked great.
Hi Franco, hope you are all well. Rick, one of our new client knows us from you! Thanks again and wish you all the best
What are the capacitors on the drive for?
12:41
Hi. They are recommended in the DMM manual. They call them "smoothing capacitors" and I believe they help make the the switching power supply output more like a true linear DC power supply.
No Clearpath ?
IMO, they are too expensive. We used one for a project at work. It was very nice and of good quality, but when you compare specs with DMM, the DMM products are a better deal, IMO. That being said, many people use clearpath and are very happy with them.
No Clearpath ??? Hrrrgh :)
Clearpath period..
???? if you plug a 220 volt power supply into 120 volts it will smoke instantly- no workie at all.
$36 for a programming cable? Dude, where are these crazy prices coming from?
Without a load and an encoder or scale on the output this test is suspect. Also using different voltage power supplies further invalidates the test. Steppers can spin faster at higher voltages. Test everything on a 48v supply with a load and scale.
You said that servos have a flatter curve compared to stepper. But that is true for the dmm servo and not the clearpath servos. So this cannot be a default benefit of servos.
30:06 Winston did not like this! ;-)
No he did not!
HELLO IS THAT I CAN PLACE AN ENCODER IN A MOTOR STEOER AND HOW CAN I PRANCHER IT
Having virtual com ports in software means programmers are low grade, and you probably will have pain with that soft. Bugs that cannot be fixed fast, or just be ignored at all forever. It's because bad programmers cannot make achitecture suitable for effective bug fixing and feature implifications.
HELLO IS THAT I CAN PLACE AN ENCODER IN A STEPER MOTOR
"Increasing gain will give more power". This is not true. Read up on PID loop tuning.
all the money you spent there you could have just went clear path 3 year warren the real question is how long will the ebay china stuff last. it all works the china stuff makes every thing we buy LOL
but the ac motor drive will have a lot less torque at slow speeds than the stepper motor
I suggest that you learn about PID
@@AdaptivePhenix ok , PID or not , lets assume that a servo, (and Im a servo advocate) is at stand still,with power on, now lets get a same size stepper with power on,the coils stand still, which one has more torque at that moment? yes the stepper if you got over the torque rating it would lose steps , while the servo will fault, now as slow speed (< 100rpm) the stepper will get more torque than the servo , while the servo will get more torque above that.. now if you dont agree with this , please elaborate..
So no US/European company making the low and middle class option. It's just Chinese products.