Bixie, Lei Gong Ye Mao x3 fireteam (counts as a 4 man fire team) and Tiger Soldier x3 (jet propulsion) 8 orders of alpha strike. Three start almost anywhere.
Superjump needs a modifier preventing you from using it twice in an activation - as it stands it does make a lot of things significantly faster than intended I would think.
Last edition had pretty potent alpha strikes with things like Bearpodes and the Heckler Panda play. This edition seems to have handed out even more durability and mobility, which are the two essentials for an alpha. The Seraph is a great example. With superjump it can move 16" in a single order. And with speedball you can give it pseudo 4W. I think it's a massive oversight and doesn't feel that healthy for the game. Inevitably people are going to say, "Well you can just ARO them", but there really aren't that many compelling AROs that you can deploy against a BS15 TAG that moves 16".
I don't think it was intended the way we think. They really just need to change it so you can only do one jump per order. So, Super Jump becomes: one basic skill jump+plus basic skill other than jump. OR one Long skill super jump for 10" or 12" as intended. Now if they can just fix Climb+. It went the other direction!
As I see it, it makes sense: you trade the lack of cover for extra inches. If there’s nothing to stop you, why not speed up? Besides, this rule isn’t universal, and hardly anyone gets 8 inches. This could diversify meta and introduce new tactics.
@thedicegodswg For now he is going out from my deployment zone, planning to take a shikami duo to see how well it works. If I would be facing a duo shikami coming at me, I would pray I have enough perimeter weapons or hacking network to stop them.
In all honesty, the idea of a fireteam of Khawarijs bounding across the battlefield like Gummi Bears to get into position to shoot and/or gut the enemies of the Search for Knowledge (and/or whatever else Ramah shoots at) just seems like how Khawarijs were always supposed to be, no?
I would disagree that Infinity hasn't had an "Era of the Alpha Strike" previously. It's been a longstanding issue for 10+ years now. Each edition had factors that somewhat mitigated it, but its always been incredbily strong. We've seen a significant reduction in ARO potential and a significant increase in the number of tools people can bring to deal with AROs. It's not as simple as "Don't null deploy" because the chance that anything you stand up dies is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than in N4. Oh, and the Seraph can also pop out a specialist unit that doesn't need to remain with ZoC, it can also be jumping around preparing to score while the Seraph positions.
I think in theory it sounds ludicrous, but im curious to see how it plays out on the table. If it becomes a commonplace tactic I'd wager people will begin to deploy with it in mind.
I'd say yeah, but with 2 caveats. Super jump without propulsion is straight lines only, so that's quite a big thing. And as you mentioned, the lack of cover. I think it's going to depend a lot on terrain composition.
@@thedicegodswg It feels like an oversight. Regarding the lack of cover? Lots of stuff has no cover now. Most of that stuff isnt moving like a speedster on steroids. I think (hope) that there will be a round of patching to sort out the egregious sillyness. I do wonder if they were perhaps slightly less cautious with rules knowing its entirely digital now and easily sortable. On a seperate note, did i imagine they promised us drones?
Hello, It sounds a little crazy how the rule actually works, but then I realice this is something we will need to learn how to play and how to defend. In general I don't think It will me an issue because: -Most units with superjump are one wound. A mine and you could be done. For those with 2 or more we Will have to use others kind of deployable weapons: madtraps, em mines, cibermines... Several profiles got now this kind of arsenal or already had. -A lot of armies have now some kind of terminal template weapon as ML or HRL or disposable... That is a huge menace for this kind of "flying Circus táctics". -Big Guys with superjump (tags,flyers...) they Will be harder to hide, vulnerable to hacking... Etc. -While classic fireteams received a huge Nerf, a lot of armies can now to deploy a full burst 1+1 lista that covert pretty much your whole deployment zone. Of course this new superjump opens an easy way to exploit a breach in defense, but for all armies. Now a S2 one wound profile could be, in the right situation an Alpha strike... So, not only a few ones with Eudoros, achilles, avatar,cutter, bearpodes... can do It... And yet, most of those aren't so hard to stop. And don't forget this Will work on both ways... Yes, you could hit me hard with your 'flyer' but my superjump profile maybe Will need a couple of orders to reach the console, push the button and win the game. Of course, terrain Will have huge impact on how this tactic Will works, but this was the same for Infinity. What really worries me are profiles like Nourkias: cibermask+superjump+strategic deployment option+immunityBLI+capacity to health itself by eating people or others ways to... So, any profile with this "marker" option (more serious with states which can ignore deployables). To close: I played a Ramah list with Tarik+Khawarij thinking It Will be the "duo killer" on the first turn, allowing me to hunt my enemy LT so easy... But wasn't. A couple of repeaters well deployed, plus a couple of EM mines and a raptor in suppresive fire stopped me. I managed to kill only one sharko and one okko. Tarik ended targeted which makes me to Lost several face to face rolls... Targeted+NoCover... Bad combinación. And It was Tarik, which has BS-3... (I wrote this when were around 54 comments) Happy to read many not so worry. I hope my comments help those less optimistic with this new interaction.
@thedicegodswg yes, for sure It changes a lot, for all factions, my bad if I sound like I thought liked doesn't. My point is I feel we could deal with It. Maybe the feeling could be a matter on how buildings and terrain are set in different metas. For example: to allow or not, to deploy/play into buildings. I know in many places "indoors" aren't allowed, but It does in others.
So it made Super Jump actually usable skill now? From just my perspective, when I was using Super Jump soldiers they were shot down 90-80% of the time during the jump. It literally became the meme in my playing group how easily they go down. Also I dont understand the problem with "its not very fun" and "you have to prepare for it". The same is with parachutist spam, or combat jump. You have to account for it and its not fun on being on the receivng end of it. For bunny hopping fireteam/coordinated order squad you can actually prepare because you see that they are coming.
Only twice the speed of Achilles... and able to come in from more vectors... as a fireteam. I don't think it's impossible to defend from, but certainly a weird change to the game.
Feels like it could be intentional for aerial sruff. Its a relatively simple way to represent a very fast all out speed vs a more tactical one. Makes sense for a flying thing. Not sure I like it though
I think its a thing we will deal with, but at the same time well placed troops with deployables will slow that roll quite a bit. You could easily have troops dropping mines, turrets or the other deployables as AROs as the superjumpers get close. There is an art to deployment, and Null deploying now has a severe negative as you will have the jumpers in your snickers, but well placed mines, or ARO ZOc deployables are gonna slow that a lot. I think as with any new edition, the meta has to form. I am more worried about putting turrets out and autoreloads in Zoc of baggage getting abused.
I like it in theory as SJ wasnt great in N4, but could definitely be open to abuse. Hacking defence nework will be key. Sorry ariadna. Cheerkillers might actually be relevant! Although perseus does it better.
I don't believe it works this way at all. Pg 13 doesn't allow you to combine the basic short skill "move" with another skill. I.e. you can jump and shoot, but not move and jump, or jump and move. If you opt to make jump a long skill, it becomes 10 inches, instead of the twelve, which honestly is still a lot.
I’d first drop a speedball or two in the path towards enemy deployment too. Add some extra safety to your troops with a vitapack and/or nanoscreen. Nightshades will be handy to alpha with. Hidden deployment, Forward deployed camo token with mim6, stealth, surprise attack and super-jump. As super-jump turns jump into a basic short skill with movement label, you can declare super-jump as cautious movement. Stealth then allows you to super-jump through ZoC (non-LoF) without generating ARO’s. Unless i missed something….
Aside from cautious movement, I think you're good. Jump and Cautious are distinct, long skills. SJ turns J into a short skill, but I don't see how you add one to the other. Correct me if I am missing something?
@@thedicegodswg Ah…i mixed up Stealth with Cautious movement. Stealth does work with super-jump though. As Jump is now a basic short skill with movement label. Having a 6” or even 8” move helps a lot in passing through ZoC and stay out of LoF.
I think people are overreacting a bit. If you've played for the whole N4 cycle (and even earlier) and are an active tournament player, you're in a comfort zone. You know the faction and units you're playing and know the tricks of most of what you're facing, what your guys and the opponent's can do (and how). Infinity is so layered that knowledge about what can happen and what you're facing becomes quite important. With an edition change, there's a reset. You're out of your comfort zone and need to start thinking in a new way, because your previous knowledge has become obsolete to a varying degree. And I think that "being out of the comfort zone" is the basis for many of the doom-saying reactions we see.
For myself, no. There are many changes in N5 I like. This feels like a half-baked, badly executed couple of rules which will make first turn massively unbalanced. I've played Infinity since N2, this edition doesn't have the same feel as N3 or N4 when they arrived. They had issues, but this, climbing plus, turrets... this all adds up to a messy game of who goes first and spams unit A and B wins. Does that sound fun?
Wait till you learn about parachutiat deployment zone and impersonators, literally start in your deployment zone, if you Don't layer your defenses you're just bad at infinity
Well, thanks for your insight. For reference, Carlotta is a favourite unit of mine, and impersonators are no issue... if you think those are the same as a 16" moving tag or a 5 man, 2 wound, 12" moving fireteam, then you just don't understand Infinity. 😉
Bixie, Lei Gong Ye Mao x3 fireteam (counts as a 4 man fire team) and Tiger Soldier x3 (jet propulsion) 8 orders of alpha strike. Three start almost anywhere.
That's gross... I love it. Hahaha
Superjump needs a modifier preventing you from using it twice in an activation - as it stands it does make a lot of things significantly faster than intended I would think.
Agreed.
Also, the Seraph is now giving me strong Armoured core vibes,meeting around with jetpacks 😅
Haha totally!
Luckily not armored core 4 answers
Last edition had pretty potent alpha strikes with things like Bearpodes and the Heckler Panda play. This edition seems to have handed out even more durability and mobility, which are the two essentials for an alpha. The Seraph is a great example. With superjump it can move 16" in a single order. And with speedball you can give it pseudo 4W. I think it's a massive oversight and doesn't feel that healthy for the game.
Inevitably people are going to say, "Well you can just ARO them", but there really aren't that many compelling AROs that you can deploy against a BS15 TAG that moves 16".
My concern exactly. Or ARO to 5 murder robots in a fireteam with 2 wounds.
I'm not sure if it'll be the age of alpha striking but I think it will be the death knell of null deployment.
True...
I don't think it was intended the way we think. They really just need to change it so you can only do one jump per order. So, Super Jump becomes: one basic skill jump+plus basic skill other than jump. OR one Long skill super jump for 10" or 12" as intended. Now if they can just fix Climb+. It went the other direction!
Ish. You can also parkour with C+ to boost movement too. Wall run for extra speed!
As I see it, it makes sense: you trade the lack of cover for extra inches. If there’s nothing to stop you, why not speed up? Besides, this rule isn’t universal, and hardly anyone gets 8 inches. This could diversify meta and introduce new tactics.
Maybe. And I hope so, but I don't think it'll be in a good way!
i think this is the reason we got all those turrets and a free reload xDDD
No comment.
If you still have them after your opponents first turn
Hmm shikami with eclipse grenades and 8" super jump + climbing plus and also a specialist sounds fun
Haha depends if he's coming from or going to your deployment.
@thedicegodswg For now he is going out from my deployment zone, planning to take a shikami duo to see how well it works. If I would be facing a duo shikami coming at me, I would pray I have enough perimeter weapons or hacking network to stop them.
I'd imagine if this ends up as meta defining, just changing it back to being jumps need to obey the movement skill value will be important.
Potentially. I guess we will see!
In all honesty, the idea of a fireteam of Khawarijs bounding across the battlefield like Gummi Bears to get into position to shoot and/or gut the enemies of the Search for Knowledge (and/or whatever else Ramah shoots at) just seems like how Khawarijs were always supposed to be, no?
10 points for the Gummi Bear reference that's been in my head all week too!
A horizontal jump could be fixed by saying 2” (per short skill) of the movement is vertical and the rest is horizontal.
Hmmm, interesting.
Era of the "Alpha-Strike"...oh no 😅
But I am pretty confident, that there will be viable counters to that 🤔
Turrets. So many turrets!
Don't think it's a big deal when there's gonna be 20 turrets on the board from some factions.
Haha maybe...
On a full terrain table, with a lot of vision blocking, yeah super jump is gonna be quite the thing.
Isn't it just!
I would disagree that Infinity hasn't had an "Era of the Alpha Strike" previously. It's been a longstanding issue for 10+ years now. Each edition had factors that somewhat mitigated it, but its always been incredbily strong.
We've seen a significant reduction in ARO potential and a significant increase in the number of tools people can bring to deal with AROs. It's not as simple as "Don't null deploy" because the chance that anything you stand up dies is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than in N4. Oh, and the Seraph can also pop out a specialist unit that doesn't need to remain with ZoC, it can also be jumping around preparing to score while the Seraph positions.
I think in theory it sounds ludicrous, but im curious to see how it plays out on the table. If it becomes a commonplace tactic I'd wager people will begin to deploy with it in mind.
100%, time will tell, but it is a crazy one.
Bixie is gonna be a real problem with her super jump lol
Yup!! Incoming!!!
I'd say yeah, but with 2 caveats.
Super jump without propulsion is straight lines only, so that's quite a big thing.
And as you mentioned, the lack of cover.
I think it's going to depend a lot on terrain composition.
Fair points all, but, if those stars align, it's a real shock on the way!
@@thedicegodswg It feels like an oversight. Regarding the lack of cover? Lots of stuff has no cover now. Most of that stuff isnt moving like a speedster on steroids. I think (hope) that there will be a round of patching to sort out the egregious sillyness. I do wonder if they were perhaps slightly less cautious with rules knowing its entirely digital now and easily sortable.
On a seperate note, did i imagine they promised us drones?
Hello,
It sounds a little crazy how the rule actually works, but then I realice this is something we will need to learn how to play and how to defend.
In general I don't think It will me an issue because:
-Most units with superjump are one wound. A mine and you could be done. For those with 2 or more we Will have to use others kind of deployable weapons: madtraps, em mines, cibermines... Several profiles got now this kind of arsenal or already had.
-A lot of armies have now some kind of terminal template weapon as ML or HRL or disposable... That is a huge menace for this kind of "flying Circus táctics".
-Big Guys with superjump (tags,flyers...) they Will be harder to hide, vulnerable to hacking... Etc.
-While classic fireteams received a huge Nerf, a lot of armies can now to deploy a full burst 1+1 lista that covert pretty much your whole deployment zone.
Of course this new superjump opens an easy way to exploit a breach in defense, but for all armies. Now a S2 one wound profile could be, in the right situation an Alpha strike... So, not only a few ones with Eudoros, achilles, avatar,cutter, bearpodes... can do It... And yet, most of those aren't so hard to stop. And don't forget this Will work on both ways... Yes, you could hit me hard with your 'flyer' but my superjump profile maybe Will need a couple of orders to reach the console, push the button and win the game.
Of course, terrain Will have huge impact on how this tactic Will works, but this was the same for Infinity.
What really worries me are profiles like Nourkias: cibermask+superjump+strategic deployment option+immunityBLI+capacity to health itself by eating people or others ways to... So, any profile with this "marker" option (more serious with states which can ignore deployables).
To close: I played a Ramah list with Tarik+Khawarij thinking It Will be the "duo killer" on the first turn, allowing me to hunt my enemy LT so easy... But wasn't. A couple of repeaters well deployed, plus a couple of EM mines and a raptor in suppresive fire stopped me. I managed to kill only one sharko and one okko. Tarik ended targeted which makes me to Lost several face to face rolls... Targeted+NoCover... Bad combinación. And It was Tarik, which has BS-3...
(I wrote this when were around 54 comments) Happy to read many not so worry. I hope my comments help those less optimistic with this new interaction.
I think that you're partly right, but things like the Hollowmen and Seraph somewhat change things...
@thedicegodswg yes, for sure It changes a lot, for all factions, my bad if I sound like I thought liked doesn't. My point is I feel we could deal with It. Maybe the feeling could be a matter on how buildings and terrain are set in different metas. For example: to allow or not, to deploy/play into buildings. I know in many places "indoors" aren't allowed, but It does in others.
So it made Super Jump actually usable skill now? From just my perspective, when I was using Super Jump soldiers they were shot down 90-80% of the time during the jump. It literally became the meme in my playing group how easily they go down.
Also I dont understand the problem with "its not very fun" and "you have to prepare for it". The same is with parachutist spam, or combat jump. You have to account for it and its not fun on being on the receivng end of it. For bunny hopping fireteam/coordinated order squad you can actually prepare because you see that they are coming.
The super jumper alpha strike will save a few orders, but that's really no different from what Achilles would do to you in N4. The key is defense
Only twice the speed of Achilles... and able to come in from more vectors... as a fireteam. I don't think it's impossible to defend from, but certainly a weird change to the game.
I mean tiger soldiers are kinda funny now
So it's not ALL bad...
Just had a look on the app, have they not put sectorials on yet? Cant see military order on there
Yup, they're there. Are you on phone or desktop?
@thedicegodswg phone, can only see main factions
Feels like it could be intentional for aerial sruff. Its a relatively simple way to represent a very fast all out speed vs a more tactical one. Makes sense for a flying thing. Not sure I like it though
Agreed for aerial, but why give it to the ground pounders though?
I think its a thing we will deal with, but at the same time well placed troops with deployables will slow that roll quite a bit. You could easily have troops dropping mines, turrets or the other deployables as AROs as the superjumpers get close. There is an art to deployment, and Null deploying now has a severe negative as you will have the jumpers in your snickers, but well placed mines, or ARO ZOc deployables are gonna slow that a lot. I think as with any new edition, the meta has to form. I am more worried about putting turrets out and autoreloads in Zoc of baggage getting abused.
I like it in theory as SJ wasnt great in N4, but could definitely be open to abuse. Hacking defence nework will be key. Sorry ariadna.
Cheerkillers might actually be relevant! Although perseus does it better.
I don't believe it works this way at all. Pg 13 doesn't allow you to combine the basic short skill "move" with another skill. I.e. you can jump and shoot, but not move and jump, or jump and move. If you opt to make jump a long skill, it becomes 10 inches, instead of the twelve, which honestly is still a lot.
I’d first drop a speedball or two in the path towards enemy deployment too. Add some extra safety to your troops with a vitapack and/or nanoscreen.
Nightshades will be handy to alpha with. Hidden deployment, Forward deployed camo token with mim6, stealth, surprise attack and super-jump.
As super-jump turns jump into a basic short skill with movement label, you can declare super-jump as cautious movement. Stealth then allows you to super-jump through ZoC (non-LoF) without generating ARO’s. Unless i missed something….
Aside from cautious movement, I think you're good. Jump and Cautious are distinct, long skills. SJ turns J into a short skill, but I don't see how you add one to the other. Correct me if I am missing something?
@@thedicegodswg Ah…i mixed up Stealth with Cautious movement. Stealth does work with super-jump though. As Jump is now a basic short skill with movement label. Having a 6” or even 8” move helps a lot in passing through ZoC and stay out of LoF.
@basrietveld1982 ah yes, you are correct. Scary stuff.
I think people are overreacting a bit.
If you've played for the whole N4 cycle (and even earlier) and are an active tournament player, you're in a comfort zone. You know the faction and units you're playing and know the tricks of most of what you're facing, what your guys and the opponent's can do (and how). Infinity is so layered that knowledge about what can happen and what you're facing becomes quite important.
With an edition change, there's a reset. You're out of your comfort zone and need to start thinking in a new way, because your previous knowledge has become obsolete to a varying degree. And I think that "being out of the comfort zone" is the basis for many of the doom-saying reactions we see.
For myself, no. There are many changes in N5 I like. This feels like a half-baked, badly executed couple of rules which will make first turn massively unbalanced. I've played Infinity since N2, this edition doesn't have the same feel as N3 or N4 when they arrived. They had issues, but this, climbing plus, turrets... this all adds up to a messy game of who goes first and spams unit A and B wins. Does that sound fun?
Seems like an oversight?
I don't know, but hard to magic away, alas.
Thanks, this made me hate N5
That's a shame
Wait till you learn about parachutiat deployment zone and impersonators, literally start in your deployment zone, if you Don't layer your defenses you're just bad at infinity
Well, thanks for your insight. For reference, Carlotta is a favourite unit of mine, and impersonators are no issue... if you think those are the same as a 16" moving tag or a 5 man, 2 wound, 12" moving fireteam, then you just don't understand Infinity. 😉