*Do you trust governments* to not decree by (new) law to force such businesses to hand over that DNA data? Imagine WHO makes another fearmongering push and then governments claim they need that data for effective spread control of a pathogen.
@@Jess_of_the_Shire Thanks Jess. My son had a dna test done some time ago, not surprisingly 96% of my heritage is Scottish, who'd have thought...(if I can extrapolate from his result).
I was so unbearably depressed during 2022 because of doom scrolling sites that were going on about the worst case scenarios of a second civil war and fascist right-wing regimes coming to power. Granted we should still watch out for the latter, but the former was a bit silly and overly sensational in retrospect.
@@LordVader1094you think trump wouldn't be a full-on Putin puppet dictator if he could?? I would say authoritarianism is the real danger in the US today and it's already in early-middle stages... I have more freedom of speech and everything else here in Europe than I did in the US. No, not because I want to say racist shit (which you can), but i mean everything (guns too, just get registered!!) Trump structured his government to give (mainly just) him but also his billionaire politician and judge buddies more control and overreach. Right wing? Fine, but today US corporations and government are directly connected in many ways, and american conservatives continually vote for more rights for both. Less for working people. And the DNC is more about money than anything else. So yeah, it's not insane to see total dystopia there in the near future... I imagine a McDonald's defense contractor off branch made up of Crips in the near future, taking territory from taco bell 😂😂😂
I always assumed it was the result of looking into the Palantíri. And the manipulation for his mind by Sauron. Why fight an enemy when they are defeated in their own mind and won't fight back. That is how I read it.
My jaw dropped when Denethor pulled out the Palantir. I read the books after watching the films and had no idea how much more complex he originally was.
When the Nemenorians came to Middle Earth, they brought the palantirs so they could quickly communicate with each other in Anor, Gondor, and Numenor. But the main palantir was sunk, as Numenor sunk. When reading the Lord of the Rings, I thought the eye of Sauron resulted from using the palantir from the Tower of the Moon. Denethor had the palantir from the Tower of the Sun.
Book Denethor feels like a Game of Thrones character who has been dropped into Tolkien’s world. He has a bleak, cynical mindset that directly attacks Tolkien’s own values, which makes him one of the most modern-feeling characters in LotR. He can’t stand Faramir’s aggressively pure nature and basically accuses him of putting on an act-you can almost imagine his criticism coming out of George R. Martin’s mouth. Denethor also has flashes of compassion and regret that make his character even more unsettling. He’s really one of the few morally gray characters in the book.
I'll always say, - beyond the theme-destroying changes to Denethor and Faramir, and the cutting of Imrahil from the plot, the thing that baffles me most about the RotK film: Gandalf Outright Murders Denethor... In front of his own guards. Denethor is panicking on the floor, and a swift slap with a staff would calm him down (or knock him out!). But Gandalf kicks Shadowfax forwards across the room, rears up to Denethor and has the horse kick him onto a burning pyre, knowing he's dripping in oil. - Then gives a James Bond'esc quip as he watches the poor man run away in fear and agony! - What a dick?! In the books, Beregond is exiled from Minas Tirith by Aragorn of all people, for even daring to leave his guard-post, without permission. In the films, Gandalf murders the Steward and Marshal of all Gondor, in front of witnesses... *totally fine - he's got wizard's immunity*. Book Denethor took the torch, lit his oil-covered pyre, and lay down on it, holding his Palantir, even after Faramir had been reclaimed to safety. Clear suicide. So why the logic-defying change? Is Gandalf meant to be "a badass"?
I think it's worth noting that in the book, Denethor sending Faramir back out to the city of Osgiliath was not meant to be a mere suicide run. The post "Collections: The Siege of Gondor, Part II" from the blog "A Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry" summarizes this nicely: "Faramir’s return to the city (RotK 90) comes before the assault on Osgiliath. So instead of sending Faramir on a suicide charge against some stone walls, Denethor is instead sending Faramir out with what reinforcements can be spared to Osgiliath. This changes the character of Denethor’s decision. He is aware (Faramir has indeed just told him) that any troops sent at this point to defend the crossing are likely to suffer high casualties. To ‘spend’ (as he puts it) his own sons so is perhaps callous and certainly ruthless, but it has sound sense to it. Faramir is the finest captain he has, and this is a difficult but necessary assignment. No one - not even Faramir - suggests calling back the forces at Osgiliath or further north at Caer Andros (which has, in fact, at this point already fallen, but this is not known yet)." On Faramir coming back wounded, far more people make it back with him, and they draw the armies of Mordor to get smashed by the forces of Gondor: "The rearguard, one mile out is “a more ordered mass of men…marching not running, still holding together,” supported by Faramir’s cavalry (RotK, 102). Holding together a retreat like this is incredibly difficult - the inherent psychological urge in humans to run would be nearly overpowering - suggesting that Faramir really is the masterful captain he’s cracked up to be. The retreat, harried by enemy cavalry and ring-wraiths, finally breaks into a rout ‘scarcely two furlongs’ from the city (440 yards), when Faramir is injured. Denethor - having coolly observed all of this - now releases his sortie (which he had held prepared all morning) like a boss. In breaking through the defenses and pursuing Faramir’s forces, the vanguard of the army of Mordor is strung out and has its formation all broken up (there’s that friction again). Denethor’s sortie reminds me of the Battle of Hastings (1066) - there William (the Conqueror)’s Norman knights had charged the Anglo-Saxon line, which had held and when a cry went up that William was killed (he wasn’t), had retreated. The less disciplined Anglo-Saxon fyrdmen (the levy infantry) charged down the hill after them in a pell-mell pursuit much like the one Faramir just lured the orcs and Southrons into. Thereupon William, having gotten control of his forces, promptly wheeled them around and charged the Anglo-Saxons out in the open, annihilating them. Infantry out of formation is extremely vulnerable to cavalry."
For Denethor's suicide I think it's well worth looking at the details of events Tolkien writes down, especially for March 13 3019 from the aoppendices "Frodo captured by the Orcs of Cirith Ungol. The Pelennor is overrun. Faramir is wounded. Aragorn reaches Pelargir and captures the fleet. Théoden in Drúadan Forest. Denethor looks in the palantir. Then from the text, when Denethor returns from his “secret room under the summit of the Tower” with his face “grey, more deathlike than his son’s” and his words to Pippin on the next page “the Enemy has found it, and now his power waxes” Sauron has shown him, as well as a black fleet sailing up the Anduin to Minas Tirith, that the spy that was sent into Mordor has been captured. Sauron doesn't know that Frodo was carrying the One Ring, as Sam took it when he thought Frodo had been killed. It was probably just one of the things Sauron showed to Denethor, probably including the orc army he had sent into Calenardon to block any help Rohan might send, and a final vision of a captive halfling in the Tower of Cirith Ungol. Denethor doesn't know that the army of Rohan has bypassed that orc army, thanks to the Druedain, nor does he know Aragorn is sailing to the relief of the city in that fleet. He does know that a halfling was sent into Mordor with the Ring to destroy it, because Faramir told him so, and he now knows that that halfling has been captured - which means Sauron now has the Ring. I think it's that which tips him over into despair, rather than just the black fleet. From what Denethor knows, or thinks he knows, Minas Tirith will certainly fall just as Arnor fell before it, and there is nothing that can save it.
@@terrystewart1973 Sauron wouldn't be able to show Denethor anything about Frodo, because Sauron wasn't yet aware of Frodo's capture (he only learned of it several days later when that Orc brought the Mithral Coat, Barrow-blade & Elven Cloak to Barad Dur). Also, Sauron at this point was convinced that Aragorn had the Ring.
@@TheMarcHicks I think their capture of someone had been reported, and the Watchers of the Tower of Cirith Ungol certainly alerted a Nazgul when Sam and Frodo escaped from the tower, see the start of Chapter Two, 'The Land of Shadow'. Also as I said there is that quote from Denethor, after he looked in the palantir, “the Enemy has found it, and now his power waxes”
@@terrystewart1973 he was only assuming it was found because he was so certain that sending it away would result in that outcome, & all the evidence seemed to point that way too. His despair was fed by seeing the full extent of Sauron's forces held in reserve within Mordor itself. The forces of the Tower of Cirith Ungol and of Minas Morgul knew that something had reached the pass through the mountain, but they had no idea how many or of what kind they were. Sauron wasn't omniscient (not even Manwe is), which is how Aragorn was able to keep him distracted from his true danger.
@@TheMarcHicks And Sauron is the one picking and choosing what Denethor sees, because he can perceive his deepest fears, and uses the Palantir to feed them.
Which is also one last point FOR Denethor. When Sauron showed him Frodo in the tower of Cirith Ungol, Denethor, in all his despair, did NOT let Sauron see just WHAT he had captured. Sauron didn't know that Frodo had the ring. To him the strange halfling was nothing but a spy his orcs and Shelob had caught. And Denethor managed to control his emotional response enough that Sauron didn't notice just HOW important that supposed "spy" had been. Just HOW MUCH his capture shook Denethor, more than the vast armies of the south, the Rohirrim not coming or the corsairs of Umbar making sail for the city. Denethor believed the battle to be lost. He believed that very soon Sauron would have the ring back and the west would fall. Yet, out of sheer principle he defied and resisted Sauron just ONE last time. And that last act of resistance helped save middle earth. Even though Denethor would never realize it.
The way Aragorn and Denethor are alike is shown in multiple ways. One I like to point out: Only two characters go against the council of Gandalf himself and are proved right to do so: Aragorn (when he looks in the palantír) and Denethor (when he orders the Fords of Anduin defended before the Battle of the Pelennor Fields). Aragorn's revealing himself to Sauron and using the palantír is crucial to Sauron's haste and Aragorn's choice to brave the Paths of the Dead. Denethor's decision to defend the fords holds back Mordor's advance for about two days. Without that delay, Théoden's riders and Aragorn's relief force would have been too late to save Minas Tirith.
@@waltonsmith7210 Good point, but I disagree for two reasons: Holding the fords allowed the garrison at Cair Andros to retreat to Minas Tirith (Gandalf mentions this briefly as he comes back from the battle at the fords to report). We don't know the numbers involved, but at the least the losses at the fords would have been mitigated by that retreat not ending in annihilation. But even so, it's not numbers that hold out against the Lord of the Nazgûl. It's hope and courage, the will to resist. By the time Rohan arrives, the city's defenders only hold firm where Gandalf and Dol Amroth are, and they have to stay by the gate to prevent it from falling. Two more days of that would have been even more disastrous. Orcs would have swarmed the walls and been inside the city, whether the gate held or not.
Denethor described in Unfinished Tales: "It may noted that the effects were different. Saruman fell under the domination of Sauron and desired his victory, or no longer opposed it. Denethor remained steadfast in his rejection Sauron, but was made to believe that his victory was inevitable, and so fell into despair. The reasons for this difference were doubt that in the first place Denethor was a man of great strength of will, and maintained the integrity of his personality until the final blow of the (apparently) mortal wound of his only surviving son. He was proud, but this was by no means merely personal: he loved Gondor and its people, and deemed himself appointed by destiny to lead them in this desperate time. And in the second place the Anor-stone was his by right, and nothing but expediency was against his use of it in his grave anxieties. He must have guessed that the Ithil-stone was in evil hands, and risked contact with it, trusting his strength. His trust was not entirely unjustified. Sauron failed to dominate him and could only influence him by deceits." I want to highlight how GOOD Denethor was. He contended directly with the will of Sauron and his love and loyalty to Gondor was so great that he could not be broken. Saruman, a Maia, was dominated by Sauron. Saruman new Iluvatar, saw the creation of the world, saw Morgoth's defeat, and yet was still broken by Sauron. Yet the good in Denethor won out when contesting Sauron. The fact that Sauron could only ever turn Denethor against himself, and misguide his sense of duty is a testament to Denethor's virtue.
That's not just him being good, it's also Denethor being a Numenorean, heir to the people that had crafted the Palantíri for their own use. The stones obeyed him because he was a rightful user, unlike Saruman despite all his lore and unlike Sauron and all his power. The virtue to able to use the stones was in his blood, not his mind and heart.
@@CleoThornSchmitz ....yes that's the second half of the quote. Look back at the first part, "...He was proud, but this was by no means merely personal: he loved Gondor and its people, and deemed himself appointed by destiny to lead them in this desperate time." He was good, and this goodness could not be stomped out of him. It was twsted, but unbroken.
I think of it as in their Nature. Denethor was at heart, a Numenorian Lord who would defend Gondor's honour to the last (even refusing to take the Kingship when prompted by his loyal son and heir), whereas Saruman was at heart someone who wanted control, order and discipline. A shitty Headmaster/principal, perhaps, - or bureaucrat.
2 other aspects to Book Denethor 1) the premature death of his wife, Boromir and Faramir's mother - losing a counterweight to his mental battle of wills against Sauron. 2) Denethor knew Aragorn , from when a young Aragorn (going under the nom de guerre of (I think) Thorongil) had fought with both the Rohirrim and the men of Gondor. If memory serves, Aragorn / Thorongil rose to be a trusted lieutenant of Denethor's father, Echthelion II. Aragorn / Thorongil had led a Gondorian raid against the port of Umbar,. There had been rumors that Echthelion would look to Thorongil for a successor, passing over Denethor, but after the raid against Umbar, Thorongil disappeared. That HAD to have an effect upon a young Denethor...
I think also that early interaction/rivalry with Aragorn might be part of what made him hate the parts of himself and therefore Faramir also that were like Aragorn, that parts that were not pure warrior. “Denethor... was as like to Thorongil as to one of nearest kin, and yet was ever placed second to the stranger in the hearts of men and the esteem of his father.” “Faramir the younger was like [Boromir] in looks but otherwise in mind. He read the hearts of men as shrewdly as his father, but what he read moved him sooner to pity than to scorn. He was gentle in bearing, and a lover of lore and of music, and therefore by many in those days his courage was judged less than his brother’s. But it was not so, except that he did not seek glory in danger without a purpose. He welcomed Gandalf at such times as he came to the City, and he learned what he could from his wisdom; and in this as in many other matters he displeased his father.
The biggest diff between book and movie is his relationship w Pippin. In the book, this humanises Denethor. Theoden and Merry have a simpler, healthier friendship. But Pippin reminds Denethor of simpler, happier - pre Thorongil - times
"As Steward, you are charged with the protection of this city... Where are Gondor's Armies!?" Well... I sent for all able men of Gondor over a week ago and they are converging on the city in a convoy of thousands. I sent the Red Arrow yesterday to Rohan, and lit the War beacons to warn our neighbours. I've been rebuilding the perimeter wall for months and set guards. I've stationed a huge garrison at the only two river crossings the enemy can use. I have constant riders running back and forth relaying orders and intel. I've sent all women and children away into the heartlands, leaving more provisions for the fortress. Rationing has been set for siege. I've set the battlements, charged the catapults, and fed the horses. I've laid out battle strategies for armored sorties to defend any retreat. And I've spent the last week having a psychic battle with a demonic demi-god, to survey the approaching enemy. My son's dead, my wife's dead, my allies are absent, and my back aches from sleeping in Chainmail these past twenty years... What have you done, Twat'dalf?
Denethor is easily my favourite character in the books. He is all too human, and his dialogue is so rich. And I just love the irony of Gandalf warning Pippin about not trying to trick Denethor moments before he himself tries and fails to do so.
Have you ever noticed that "Theoden" and "Denethor" are almost anagrams? You can spell "Theoden" out of "Denethor," but you can't do the reverse, for there is no "R" in "Theoden." "It may stand for Ruler," as Galadriel might say, "but it may also stand for Ring." Befitting the fact that Theoden, while a mess when we meet him, rallies and goes to join his ancestors in whose company he will not be out of place, while Denethor, much more in control when he meets Gandalf and Pippin, finishes up a deranged suicide
"He is cruel, infuriating, and really bad at eating tomatoes." I almost fell out of my chair laughing! This video was a level of understanding and teaching that is worthy of great praise.
he truly is just a greek tragedy hero living out the last act of his play in the middle of the lord of the rings. i love how tolkeins world feels so real because so many stories have been woven into this one
Reading Return of the king gave me a lot more appreciation to Denethor as a character, someone who really seemed to me like just a silly villain in the movie. And while I understand why the decision to alter him was made, it's still a bit sad to see such a tragic story ommitted from the film.
I think, one reason why Denethor has become so bitter towards Faramir is because he's become bitter towards himself. As you said, when looking at the kind of archetype they are, Denethor is far more similar to Faramir than Boromir. I imagine that Faramir's idealism reminds Denethor too much of his own youth, before decades of fighting a losing war kicked all valour and confidence out of him. When he sees Faramir talking about kindness and bravery, all he can think about is how his own son will learn bitter lessons, just like he did.
Jess, Good video, but I think you missed two important aspects of book Denethor's character and actions. The First is that he knew Thorongil and suspected if not knew exactly who he was. So his comments about being replaced by a ranger of the north are real. The second, and there are shadows of this in the film, is that he chose to wear armor under his clothes. Denethor decided that to share the burden of his people, and recognize the fact that Gondor was in a war for survival , he wanted to be physically carry the burden as well as mentally as the Steward of Gondor.
I always figured that him wearing that armor was specifically a symptom of his daddy issues, as if one day he might just break out and prove himself better than Aragorn/Thorongil in some imagined battlefield somewhere. I don't think it's an accident that the war in which he was found inferior to Aragorn was against the Corsairs, and it was his vision of the approach of the Corsair fleet that finally broke his spirit and sent him into despair. That it was Aragorn bringing reinforcements to win the battle and replace him as ruler was a symbolic ironic repeat. The shadow of the "Black Numenoreans" were the downfall of Denethor in multiple ways and levels.
Well done, well done, indeed! Some of my favorite prose in LoR is the complex relationship between Faramir and Denethor. And my greatest regret is the movie's depiction of Faramir. Keep up the good work, Jess.
It's easy to feel sorry for the Denethor of the book. His beloved wife had died young and he was unlucky enough to be born to be the ruling Steward when Sauron made his grand assault upon Gondor. And Denethor knew it. He had been dealt a losing hand. He was smart and that probably made all the pressure greater. Eventually it broke his mind. He was not such an arrogant leader as it is easy to believe. It was his job to show pride and he was good at it. Exercising the power of the King, he maintained the tradition of only sitting on the Steward's chair, not the King's. Faramir recounts that as children, it displeased Boromir that their father was not King: "How many hundreds of years needs it to make a steward a king, if the king returns not? " he asked. "Few years, maybe, in other places of less royalty," my father answered. "In Gondor ten thousand years would not suffice."
Interesting fact: The Return of the King was published in 1955. Just 4 years earlier a General had given orders to his own son to defend a position to the last. (This was French Marshal Tassigny in Indochina). His only son Bernard followed the order - and was killed. Thereby also ending the noble line of Tassigny. His father was deeply stricken by this, his mental health declined rapidly and he died shortly after. His last words on his death bed were: „where is Bernard?“ This story of a General sending his own son on a suicide mission was widely reported at the time. And I like to think that it was an inspiration for the Denethor-Faramir relationship.
@@sauromatae9728 Don't know, a lot of weaker/less-developed nations would frequently call on European nations to give them technologies and to protect them from Middle-eastern/Chinese/Japanese imperialism, I'm assuming it was something along those lines. Don't get me wrong I don't like the French much but a father losing his son is still sad regardless of their race even one of the inferior races like French or Californian.
@@Mailed-Knight Indochina was a French colony until 1954. For a look at America's beginning involvement there, read Graham Greene's *Quiet American.* For an account of Dienbienphu, the battle which lost Vietnam for France, read Bernard B. Fall's *Hell in a Very Small Place.*
I really wish they had shown Denethor looking into the Palantir in the movies. It would have helped explain his despair and madness for those who haven't read the books. When I watched the movie with my sister, I tried to give her a bit more context and explain that Denethor is a much more nuanced character than he seems.
Totally agree. Even a very short shot of him gazing into it would have made a big difference to the story and character arc. But I also understand PJ and team had a huge number of such decisions to make, and hindsight is always wonderful...
@@revbenf6870 Meh, a couple seconds shaved off a couple of the sweeping-vista camera-shots and an addition of, like you said "a very short shot of him gazing into it [a palantir[" could have made a massive difference in clearing things up and making him a more complex character, as everyone has said in the comments, which he should have been by following the book's portrayal.
To be fair he does try to burn his son alive in both versions. In the books this is like a final tragic fall but in the movie it's just a bad guy acting badly. Even in the scene where he is swearing in Pippin and he's repeating book dialogue word for word from the book he still comes off as an a hole where in the book it just seems epic.
To be fair in a different way, in the book at least and maybe-sorta the movie, he has well founded reasons to believe Faramir's alternative is either dying of a fever or being chopped to pieces by orcs while on his sickbed.
In the books, it is already established that Faramir is doomed, as no herbalist or medic in the city can heal him. Only when Aragorn (unlooked for) arrives after victory, is he able to use old-lore healing and herbs to save Faramir on his deathbed... - This is better framing than in the film, where Pippin is crying "he's alive, he needs medicine, or any kind of medical attention" and Denethor is basically screaming "I won't have any grandchildren! So all is lost! Everyone run away and hide!"
I think that's because the book kinda whispers in our ear that Denethor is a good man and this is his tragic fall. But without these descriptors of him in the narration he would come off as just an asshole. Nothing in his actions book or film demonstrate much goodness.
@@JackChurchill101 I have to disagree. It has nothing to do with medicine or grandchildren. It's he thinks the city is to be over run and everyone killed and wanted for him and his son to go out on his own terms, not whatever the army of Sauron has planned. Even with a healer or medic can cure him so what, he will just be killed by the orcs in his hospital bed. That's what he is thinking and why he is acting like that. He has completely given up.
There is also the point that above all, Denethor loved his wife, sister to Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth. Though fair, she grew frail on the harsh rock of Minas Tirith and always longed for the sea, soon dying in early years. I think Faramir reminds Denethor of his lost wife. And he bottles this up in harshness and battle, rather than lean towards the softness and wisdom that caused him such pain in loss before.
Thank you for tackling this character. I think that prior to the wounding of his son, book Denethor hadn't despaired completely (though he was certainly walking a tightrope). Only after looking into the Palantir after Faramir was wounded did he finally break irrevocably and completely.
I think Denethor's main problem is much simpler: despair. He loves his country, and he loves himself and his line as its rulers. He knows he is standing for a high, noble and proud kingdom with thousands of years of history. He knows he is defending it from darkness and tyranny and genocide. And yet he can't stop it from being destroyed. He's been fighting that war for decades, and his predecessors for centuries. And now it's coming to the end and he sees armies much, much larger than his converging to destroy him and he knows that whatever he does, and all the sacrifices he and his men have ever made, have been in vain. He faces the destruction of everything he dedicated his life for, and he doesn't see a shred of hope that it can be defended. Despite that he held on knowing it was the right thing to do, that even his doomed cause was worth pursuing because it was right. But then his wife died, then Boromir died. And then Faramir (seemingly) died. And then armies parked in front of his gates and battered down his gates, and no allies turned up to help him. At that point, does anyone blame him for despairing, for giving up? For saying, to hell with it all, everything is lost, and all I've done, all I've sacrificed has been in vain. The world is now dead. At least don't let me face torture and thralldom and ridicule at the hands of these monsters. I'll seek an end to life and all this suffering, at least I shall go out on my own terms, when fate has denied me everything else, and not face even more evil. He is a completely reasonable character. And let's not forget, that unlike in the movies, he waged the war with Mordor extremely well. Also bear in mind for how many years he resisted Sauron's influence through the palantir, never betraying his own side, something Saruman failed to do despite being a Maiar thousands of years old. He is my prime example to cite when someone says Tolkien can't do character work, along with Eowyn
Denethor's relationship with those thousands of years of history is complicated, and an essential part of his character. When he says, "The West has Failed", he's referring to the Numenorian line that, while giving rise to the Stewards also left Gondor without a king and Arnor destroyed. To Denethor, the line of Numenorian kings was an abject failure (which he elliptically refers to when throwing shade on Aragorn/Thorongil), and it was the Stewards who properly knew how to govern and protect. This is why he favored Boromir over Faramir: Bormor was non-Numenorian in character (IIRC, Eomer likens Boromir to the Rohirrim), while Faramir, ironically, reminds Denethor of his own Numenorian heritage that he now despises. Boromir and Faramir are proxies for the internal contradictions in Denethor's own character, something I well imagine Tolkien intended.
John Noble often doesn't seem to get the recognition he deserves. Compare Denethor with Morland Holmes in Elementary or Walter Bishop in Fringe or some of the other roles he's played. He specializes in extraordinary yet flawed characters, but so different from each other that you have to remind yourself that it's the same actor.
@@rdbury507 Agree, and I feel he was rather squandered on the film version of Denether. He's every bit in the same league as Ian McKellen and Christopher Lee.
Great write-up. Like Boromir I think the films in their haste overshadowed the good men being "butter scraped over too much bread" by dread and grief, and went straight to making the men villains.
@@rikk319 See Carnage w/Foster and Reilly adapted from the play The God of Carnage, they did a great job of that. The cuts in LOTR have more to do with shoe horning in the Arwen and Eoywn romances.
@@rikk319 It's not strictly about the pacing, it's about subtlety and how movie studio executives for genre films love to treat the audience like they're stupid. Anything that's subtle is usually amped up to be more bombastic out of fear that the audience won't get it.
My greatest gripe with the movie is how he orders Faramir's suicidal attack. In the books, he orders him to buy time for the fleeing civilians on Pelinor after the outer wall is breached by bombs. Is it possibly suicidal? Yes. But it isn't pointless. Every minute Faramir fights is lives saved and time bought, and he nearly makes it back until he's hit by a poisoned dart.
One cool thing about Denethor in the books is Pippin and how their respective opposite relationships with Hope help explore the palantiri, Minas Tirith, Faramir and the war from Hopelessness and Hopefulness. I like how hobbittness can be explored through the comparisons with great human lords.
The part that really needed bringing out is the effect that gazing into the palantir had on Denethor. It's made very explicit in the book. He believed that Sauron had the Ring. If it had been so, then total despair might have been justified, apart from all these other considerations. But as Tolkien seems to be cautioning (or this is Tom Shippey's take on it), in dealing with Sauron, and with magical devices beyond the present skill of men, even one's own eyes are not always to be trusted. A shot of Denethor looking into the palantir would indeed have been effective.
@GravesRWFiA - Yes! I remember that from the appendices. Given the far sight of Denethor, it is probable of Echthelion sharing those traits, so either of them knowing the true identity of "Thorongil" does not seem out of the realm of possibility. In fact, the rumors of Echthelion favoring "Thorongil" over a young Denethor would likely have had an effect towards creating Denethor's fear of being usurped, his mistrust of Gandalf, and ( mirroring his own relationship with Echthelion) in creating the difficulties in his relationship with his own son, Faramir...
as a lover of both the books and the movies, I feel that the movies flattened much of the books; darkness far more shallow, hope far less bright, etc etc etc
Thanks, Jess. Very interesting. The slanderous trivialization of Denethor is the worst of the movies' many faults. And to portray the dignified man who ate little, and slept in chainmail lest he grow weak as a foolish glutton was the worst slander. On another point, among the many parallels with Theoden, they both lost a son to Orcs around the same time, and Denethor and Theoden died, probably within minutes of each other.
LOTR fans might enjoy the blog posts by Bret Devereaux over on A Collection Of Unmitigated Pedantry about the Siege of Gondor. He's a military historian and one of his points is that book Denethor is much more competent than movie Denethor.
The pedantic ones might enjoy it. But seriously, yes Book Denethor was much more controlled, and certainly wouldn't have sent his son and his men out to die in a futile gesture, as happens in the films. He did send them out to die nonetheless, but for a good military reason. And he himself organised the sortie which covered Faramir's retreat. Even though Gandalf stole the scene there, since Denethor hadn't anticipated winged Nazgul turning up to turn the retreat into a rout.
I really like his Lotr-series. Especially because he is not only focused on the historical accuracy of the despiction, but also on how PJ often misses the themes from the books.
@@Quirderph Potatoes yes, but nicotine is found not only in new world plants but in a few Australian desert herbs (bush tobacco), so I'm personally willing to bend the rule on that one.
Well, it's fantasy, a work of fiction that shouldn't be a copy and paste of our own reality. You can accept dragons, dwarves and elves, but not cherry tomatoes ??
@@Saidor570 Correct. Dragons, dwarves and elves have archetypal aspects, and so ring true, while cherry tomatoes are merely a recent genetic manipulation of a new world plant and so, placed in a fantasy context, ring about as true as would Gimli with a machine gun.. And on the subject of Gimli's weapons---and forgive me if this has been previously discussed---how, after he destroys his battle axe on a stone table (in the film) does he suddenly get a new one?
@@Michelle-Eden He carries more than one. Or, his father/fellow dwarves give him one of their own as he honorably offers to join the Fellowship and represent their people.
Wonderful video! I'm so glad you explored this. I prefer the scene in the book when Gandalf and Pippin arrive in Minas Tirith as opposed to the movie. In the book, Denethor was a much more complex and interesting character in the book.
It is now roughly 50 years since I began reading Tolkien. Your ability and enthusiasm in providing analysis with such a wonderful, well researched, easy-to-understand style is like having a hobbit, a wizard and an elf princess all rolled into one person to personally deliver a compelling deep-dive masterwork every week. At the risk of being repetitive I must say, VERY well done.
And so we face the great paradox once again... The best movie version of LotR we will perhaps ever see, where almost every character is misrepresented, nearly all the plotlines have been altered, and few details are presented accurately. But somehow it still manages to succeed, and to transport us to the world we know and love.
i would like to add to your insights that the richness and the depth of each character as written by tolkien was so fully dimensioned that the failings, limitations and adulterations of the screenplay and adaptation still give us a strongly tolkienesque outing.
But as I thought then and still think now, Jackson should have trusted the story, his filmmaking, and the audience to not simplify so many characters into standard tropes.
I so wish so many of the characters were not made into one-dimensional cynical caricatures in the film. You get the impression Jackson didn't trust the intelligence of the audience and wanted to simplify everything-yet the most successful character portrayals were those like Frodo and Aragorn who kept most of their complexity.
Basically the shoddy writing was saved by every other department in the production being absolutely on point. The writing team was the weak link, and by quite a large margin.
Good take. Denethor of the books is human, has faults, and winds up in a hell of the dire fall out from using the Palantir, which is essentially of his own making, perhaps due to temptation to use its power to aid Gondor. Denethor clearly is starting to fail but he is far more noble than bad, and clearly a guardian of Gondor, than in the movie. Denethor appears to not want information from Gandalf, and we find out later why. He thought he was more knowledgeable than even the wizard, because he was using the Palantir. In the end this could be considered to be the essence of his error - the Palantir was being used to trick him. Denethor's character arc is highly truncated and truly loses the great nuance in the movies. Gandalf makes many interesting statements about Denethor, especially regarding his powers of perception, and his ability to discern when being told truth. We see this in Faramir in ample amount in other parts of the Trilogy. Cool observation of Theoden and Denethor. Their book arcs are opposite. Theoden starts out hobbled by his advisor Wormtongue and influence from Orthanc. Eventually he follows the arc and becomes truly great, able to visit his forbears without shame. Denethor starts out with continuing nobility, but over time his use of the Palantir and encountering Sauron's influence there, his nobility is sapped and he falls into final disaster. This matter of the Palantir is complex in itself, and is perhaps a Tolkien lesson if we admit it. As usual with Tolkien there are so many elements and thoughts one can derive from delving deeply into the master author's words and the fullness of his tales. To me Denethor is just a brief "feint" a zig zag from a direct line for Aragorn taking the realm as its rightful King. Instead we have Faramir and the people of Gondor make the decision to take Elessar (Aragorn) as their true King. Hopefully most know that in the books Aragorn is NOT reluctant to become King, but is very careful not to rush upon his new role, preferring to let events unwind, and for his rightful role to become clear over time. In the movie they distort it to make it like Aragorn is not interested in Kingship.
You made a great point about Gandalf. Gandlaf's "management style" was really poor and somewhat antagonizing. It's very understandable why someone like Denethor would distrust him.
Jackson and his screenwriters definitely made Denethor a lot more one dimensional and antagonistic than the book, a choice I can understand given the limitations they were facing. John Noble’s Shakespearean performance was over the top crazy like King Lear on steroids, but this ultimately worked with the tone of the film I think. Two of the best scenes in the picture (The Lighting of the Beacons and Pippin’s song) were more effective due to this characterization. We really just needed a last minute reveal during the pyre of Denethor scene that he possessed a palantir which allowed Sauron to drive him to madness and despair (something the film alludes to but never confirms.) without that revelation he’s basically just a crazy power hungry jerk lol. Also his cartoonishly over the top murder at the hands of Gandalf was frankly inexcusable lol, I know Jackson loves some over the top spectacle in his fantasy but that was just silly lol. In my headcanon film Denethor dies as he did in the book, lighting himself ablaze after glimpsing the arrival of the black ships in the palantir, which prompts Gandalf and Pippin to save Faramir before he can be consumed in the flames as well. This would not only have been a powerful scene in its own right and a satisfactory conclusion to the character it would’ve added another tragic layer to the story as it would’ve foreshadowed the arrival of Aragorn who in a darkly ironic twist was actually coming with the black ships to save Gondor rather than destroy it. Oh well lol
Book!Denethor is a Shakespearean character, or an operatic bass. Movie!Denethor is a joke. His book death scene is metal as fuck instead of running a whole marathon while on fire. I can't watch that without laughing. When I read I kinda picture Nakadai Tatsuya as him. That man knows how to play tragic, fucked up characters, or madness with dignity. And he has the most intense gaze known to mankind.
Denethor in the film is very frustrating because I think John Noble gives a good performance, especially in his scenes opposite Faramir, and I felt the parts that were strong were really strong. They got him 90% right, but that makes the other 10% so much more frustrating. I hate when Gandalf starts whacking him in the face with his staff (and not a single guard reacts) just to get a rise out of the audience. And his death scene, getting set on fire and then jumping out his pyre, and running like a kilometer before jumping off a cliff also is very silly.
The change that annoyed me most was that, while in the book Denethor was without hope, he wasn't stupid. When he sends Faramir off to Osgiliath, it's still in Gondorian hands - it's a cold calculation but "the enemy must pay dearly for the crossing" (Denethor) even if the enemy "can afford to lose a host better than we to lose a company" (Faramir). However, if it thinned the enemy ranks and delayed them enough for the Rohirrim to arrive it was (he considered) worth the price. He was clearly prepared to send men (including Faramir) to their deaths, but it wasn't the pointless, suicidal charge that's shown in the film.
Indeed. He had plenty of screentime, if they'd actually written him as he should've been it would've filled that time far better than the cartoon villain they made him into.
@@LordVader1094I hate how he refuses to light the beacons and then has the balls to say "Rohan has deserted us!" Bro, what? The Denethor of the books was coldly rational to a fault, not a gibbering idiot.He shouldve been portrayed as something closer to Tywin Lannister. He would do well in Westeros.
I have been thinking about this for months!! Glad and excited to see that someone is talking about it!!! The book Denethor is one of my favorite characters in the series as a character and I felt pretty sad how movies flattened him as a character.
I've been saving up a few of your videos for times when I'm very stressed and need to relax, and my am I ever stressed today. About to watch a whole bunch ;;;.;;;
There's one thing you missed, that Girl Next Gondor brought up - Denethor really, _really_ hates Aragorn. Aragorn and Denethor met when they both were young and Aragorn served Ecthelion as Thorongil. Is he mentioning the Black Fleet because he thinks it's full of Corsairs... or is it because he knows it carries Aragorn, come to take the rule of Gondor?
Thanks for bringing that up. It was clear that Denethor knew who Aragorn was, and who he had previously been, and the book gave the impression that Ecthelion favored "Thorongil" over Denethor. Decades later, Denethor was still wearing that old armor under his clothes as if awaiting an opportunity to impress his long-dead father with some final brave move at last, and it had become a symbol of his paranoia. Daddy issues continue from one generation to the next, eh? On a linguistic note, it's fun that both Aragorn and Gandalf seemed to acqure a long stream of pseudonyms. This is in keeping with the norse literary tradition of using alternate descriptions of people, in place of their proper name, in order to fit the alliteration of the eddic verse. Odin (as a shadowy wanderer himself) had a laundry list of nicknames that expanded with every tale about him.
In the books, it's clear that all Denethor knows is what he and Sauron see - the black sails of pirate ships. It fooled everyone. Also, the poster below (above) hits on the point that Ecthelion seems to favor Thorongil...in the appendices, the writers say bluntly that Denethor's father DID favor the stranger, as did everyone else in town, and so, since the counsel of both young men were exactly the same (one exception), that the wandering Eagle got the nod from all and sundry, Denethor's frustration is understandable. And he Aragorn/Thorongil does it without brown nosing ("[Aragorn] never held himself higher than the servant of his father")...a natural 20 of the die roll every time.
@@Valdagast yep! And that Denethor was just a bit too arrogant, too smug, too high and mighty...when he reads you, he's more likely to see your flaws than your strengths - Faramir on the other hand, can read people as shrewdly as his father, but what he reads moves him to pity, to understanding and empathy, instead of his father's scorn. Same as Aragorn, who deals mercy with justice. So of course Denethor is jealous.
It's been a while since I read the History of Middle Earth but I think in writing Return of the King Tolkien went back and forth on this point - in the final book, you still have Pippin saying he thought it was Aragorn in the Corsair ships with no reason to back that up
I think that there is a big problem with the films in that they “mangle“ nearly all the main characters. And those of us who have read the books and watched the films, find it difficult to hang onto the pure character from the book. I fear that it may be impossible for people who were introduced to Tolkien through the films to get a good feel for the pure book characters. I enjoyed the films but in retrospect, I wish I hadn’t seen them. The character of Denethor was assassinated by the film. And in this video, you have rightly pointed out the weaknesses of his portrayal on the screen. However, the visual images are so powerful that I think most of us who have seen the films have been corrupted by them - we are much more “anti-Denethor” than we should be if we had not seen the films and based our opinions only on the books. I think an example of this in your analysis is that you blame Denothor for giving the mission (to go to Rivendel) to Boromir, his favoured son. However, Boromir himself tells us that because the mission was clearly dangerous, he took the mission himself. In addition, it’s not clear that the dream meant that Faramir was summoned to the Council of Elrond. Prophets/dreamers often have messages for a community. There is no reason to think that anybody was “going against“ the sender of the dream. One of the themes running through the Lord of the Rings (Tolkien version) is that of Mercy. I think my first point is that we should be merciful and empathetic towards Denothor. So I want to list some of his good points. He has been a faithful steward. There is no evidence that he has done anything other than rule Gondor well. He has also brought up two fine sons. Both Boromir and Faramir are a credit to their father. And we must remember that he was bereaved as quite a young man and had to bring up his sons alone. I think it’s telling that both sons seem to respect him absolutely. It cannot have been an easy time to be Steward of Gondor, with the rise of Sauron; all evidence suggests that Denethor has been a wise leader - he has really striven to keep the dark Lord at bay. Thanks to him there is a Kingdom for the King to Return to! We must also acknowledge the impact of Grief. We only meet Denothor shortly after he has had news of the death of Boromir. For a widower to lose his first-born son must be a devastating blow. Under these circumstances, we should not expect Denothor to be able always to act well. Grief speaks loudly; when someone is grieving, we should be prepared to recognise that they do and see things which are out of character. A good example of this is the dialogue with Faramir. I really think that you are much much too hard on a man who is grieving! You cannot and should not make judgments on a character, who we have only really met when he is consumed by Grief. Denothor is of noble descent. But this seems to be used as a stick to beat him with! He is accused of being “proud“. The reality may be that he operates on a higher level from most others. He is consciously competent - he knows that he is the rightful steward (he is fulfilling his destiny) and has what it takes to carry out those onerous duties. I do not think his fatal flaw was pride, I think it was that he was isolated - a situation which is not uncommon for those carrying the burden of leadership. And we must ask whose fault it was that he was isolated? Perhaps some of the blame should be assigned to Denethor himself, but there are questions to ask. For example, where were the other wise counsellors to support the steward? It does not sound as though he had even a “right hand man”. And why had Gandalf failed to provide support? Gandalf’s mission was to support the free people of Middle Earth against Sauron. He has done this brilliantly with Aragorn and ultimately well with Theoden. Why did he not make it a priority to work closely with Denothor? Gandalf is considered to be wise. But there seems little evidence that he has acted wisely with regard to Denothor. He seems to have given Denothor reasons not to trust him. Enough! I’m sorry to have written it such length, but I will continue to contend that Denothor was a good man who deserves much better treatment. Be merciful! Do not judge!
They did many characters dirty in the movies. Though Denethor is not a king he was like them and so much like Aragorn that he was said to be like near kin to him. Denethor was descended in the female line from royalty as were other Dunédain.
@@EriktheRed2023 yes, as KIND as Elrond.....another character trait deliberately omitted from the films. His speech to Frodo-in the book-when he accepts the quest to destroy the Ring, is a great example of Elrond's kindness and wisdom.
Canonically, Denethor is about the same age as Aragorn. When the Corsairs attacked Gondor, Aragorn (incognito as "Thorongil") went to Minas Tirith to fight them off. You could easily imagine the complexities this caused for Denethor. Perhaps his father Ecthelion knew Thorongil's actual lineage, perhaps not. It's likely that Ecthelion held his son back from seeking glory on the battlefield, knowing his talents lay elsewhere, and to preserve the line of Stewards. Denethor could well have been envious of the glory Thorongil won in battle. I like to think that Denethor was human enough to have taken comfort in his family (Finduilas, who he loved deeply) and his children, and that he only started to spiral downwards when his wife died. In any case, he probably saw Boromir as the equal of Aragorn, and perhaps a way of redeeming whatever he thought his own failures or shortcomings were in that regard. What if Faramir had been in the Fellowship? It's hard to say what role his brother's death played, in his rejection of the Ring. Maybe each brother would have done the same. The battle with the Uruks at Amon Hen was a critical juncture in the story, as was Boromir's temptation immediately before; it's hard to say how it would have turned out, if the characters had been in different places at the time. As far as old Denethor goes, if Boromir had survived, it's entirely possible that Boromir could have sworn fealty to Aragorn and brought his father around. Again, I like to think that the old man had a path to redemption like that.
25:00 I’m going to challenge the idea that Denethor is “seeing more clearly than anyone”; he has looked into the palantír. The palantÍr can be used by those of strong enough will to show others of weaker will images of their choosing. Sauron has shown Denethor visions of Sauron’s making. Sauron has shown Denethor the might of his army, which was most likely inflated to demoralize and destroy the thought of resistance. He has shown Denethor the destruction of Gondor and the end of free men in Middle Earth. It’s these visions of chaos, death, and destruction that cloud Denethor’s judgement and make him refuse to accept hope; but instead embrace his own destruction.
Thank you Jess. Indeed there was a sad slight of the struggling Denethor in the film adaptation. I appreciate your videos and glad we share some similar thoughts about a lot of these character adaptations. Have a great weekend.
The politics of Aragorn waiting in the wings as potential king, and what Denethor might think about that, is touched on rather lightly and subtly in the books . . . almost less than the movies, in a way, because in the movies Boromir says a couple of things about that. The first time I read the books, when I was a kid, I pretty much missed it entirely. But it is there, sometimes mentioned directly, sometimes subtext. And I can see where if I were Denethor, the situation is that I and my line have been perfectly good rulers, in some ways better than the kings were, and I know this wizard is trying to maneuver to have me usurped by some chieftain who's the boss of a bunch of vagabonds in the far northwest, thousands of miles away, whose line has had nothing to do with Gondor for like 20 generations or something. And now he says he's here to help. Of course I'm going to be a tad suspicious.
I actually didn’t even think that the palantir that Aragorn uses in the extended edition was exclusive to the white tower. I figured it was still the same one that Gandalf recovered from Saruman. I don’t think they explain it at all.
On thinking the world is too depressing now: My great aunt thought the 1950’s was a bad time to have children what with the hydrogen bomb and everything. In old age she had no children and wished my mother would visit her as often as mom visited her own mother. She should have gambled on the future and had her own children. I would visit her when I went to California, but only a fraction of the time my grandmothers got.
We are living through a more obviously disintegrative period (an apocalypse, as it were) but for the average person things are generally better than ever.
It's not like history is an incline or decline. It's a sort of living vortex. There is no doubt my ancestors would envy what we have, but they would admit as much as anybody paying attention that we are not making the best of it.
Well you could say your great aunt was more Denethor-like, but like him, she did have reason on her side. That the world wasn't destroyed by the Cold war turning hot was arguably luck, or as Tolkien would have said, Providence. This is a philosophical debate which will probably continue forever, between those advocates of rationalism, and those with faith. Perhaps the divide isn't absolute, as the rationalists still need something to believe in, and the faithful can't entirely abandon reason. But where you draw the line can be hard. Denethor had every reason to believe that entrusting the Ring to a 'witless halfling' was a huge mistake, even though Gandalf had a good rationale for that, other than faith (halflings were incredibly stealthy, resilient and had proved extremely resistant to the Ring's allure). But the mission to destroy the Ring was still a pretty desperate enterprise, and would have failed but for Providence. So the point is made: both Denethor and your aunt were more thoughtful than many who purely had faith that the apocalypse wouldn't happen. They happened to be wrong, but they had their reasons.
"It takes a special kind of evil to turn a human being into an antagonist" Agree to disagree I guess. I think it's particularly easy to make a human an antagonist because we have a uniquely personal relationship with humans in our real lives. Maybe it's just me, but it doesn't take a lot to make me hate a human in a story lol
For the most part I view the changes in the movie as positive, like cutting out Tom Bombadil, giving Glorfindel's role to Arwen, etc., I also have neutral feelings towards the book/movie differences for characters like Gandalf and Éowyn, cuz I like both versions, but in this case it's impossible to contest the fact that book Denethor is way cooler...
One thing the book brought out was the near certain knowledge Denethor had of the king returning, In the days of his youth Aragorn under another name had done great deeds in Minas Tirith. Denethor was too proud to accept that even if they won, he would no longer be the ruler,
P.S. my sister taught me how to read from the Hobbit when I was 4 yrs old. I also had the Ralph Bakshi Hobbit then , which didn't hurt. It's pretty tight. The music in that is brilliant.
Jackson, Walsh, and Boyens seemed bot to like the Dunedain. The changes they made diminished all of the Dunedain characters from book to movie ostensibly to create character arcs where the writers thought none existed or at least none to their liking for the film. This treatment is near universal. From Aragorn's lingering insecurity to Denethor's paralytic despair and spite, to the general ineptitude of the soldiers of Gondor, there is an undercurrent of disdain. I would be curious to know if the writers were ever asked how they chose to write the Dunedain. The other component to Denethor's despair is that no matter who wins, he looses. The black Corsair sails he dreads bring Thorongil, his long ago rival, to secure victory at the Pellanor Fields to secure (temprary) victory for the West. However, bowing to that ragged Ranger from the forgotten North, is only one step removed from kneeling before the Dark Lord. In this he is analogous to Saruman, who was jealous of Gandalf for millennia because Cirdan chose to give Gandalf, Narya, the Elven Ring of Fire. Pride and jealousy left to ferment over decades or centuries ultimately exploded and destroyed these failed leaders of the West. It brings to mind Saruman's epitaph from Unfinished Tales that could also be applied to Denethor: " And Curunir Lan, Saruman the White fell from his high errand, and becoming proud and impatient and enamored of power sought to have is own will by force, and to oust Sauron; but he was ensnared by that dark spirit, mightier than he." Different tactics by Sauron the Deceiver, same results.
It is strange, isn't it? They do such a good job pushing the Rohirrim to the fore and portraying them in a proper epic manner befitting the books, yet the Gondorians are never given a single moment to shine.
@@LordVader1094 I've looked online and have not seen Jackson address the issue. There is a pretty clear bias against the Dunedain. Perhaps the fact that they are the beneficiaries of divine eugenics or that they represent ideal noble feudalism did not set well with the writers.
@@LordVader1094 Yes, and there's a sense that the Rohirrim are the elite fighters compared to their Gondorian equivalents. For example, when Faramir leads his cavalry in a desperate attempt to drive the Orcs back, they are practically wiped out by archers. When the Rohirrim turn up at the Pelennor Fields, the orcs try the same tactics, but they are just brushed off, and swept away. The implication is, the REAL cavalry has turned up this time. This was also reflected in one of the video games based on the films, Battle for Middle Earth, where the elite components of the Armies of Men were the Rohirrim cavalry, and Dunedain Ranger archers. Gondor mostly got the unexciting foot sloggers. And no one ever bothered to build their cavalry.
Yeah, for all the characters that got a bit shorted in the movies, Pippin did not. The song was great, but still my favorite part is him and Gandalf talking about death.
Personally, I was aghast at depicting Denethor messily eating with tomato juice dripping down his chin. That does not match Denethor’s lineage and envisioned upbringing.
What a great topic! Amazing video. I think the key word is DEPTH. Who spends the time to flesh out a 3rd tier antagonist? The Professor did. It really show that while this HUGE story is going on, there are many other orbits of folk with their motivations. One thing to not overlook is the poor parenting that Denethor sets an example for. Yikes! Faramir may end up with the girl, but he'll have decades of therapy ahead!
You are sweet, kind, and terribly wise. I appreciate your work and insight. Tolkien has been in my side-sight since I was a young boy. You have reignignited his powerful work in my mind and heart. Peace.
Regarding the lack of character development in the movies: people have often said to me “oh, it’s a movie, can’t have endless dialogue and character development because there’s not enough time “. My response has always been that there’d have been more time for that if all the Jackson hadn’t invented scenes and situations that weren’t in the books.
"My response has always been that there’d have been more time for that if all the Jackson hadn’t invented scenes and situations that weren’t in the books." That was Christopher Tolkien's point "Do not ADD!". I agree. You have to cut things because of time constraints but there's no excuse for adding what is essentially fanfiction.
@@archvaldor That's why my opinion of Jackson, Boyens, and Walsh has steadily eroded over the last 20 years. Everything they've added has been junk padding and I can't even imagine what they have planned for _The Hunt for Gollum_
It’s unfortunate that a lot of Denethor’s quieter and more sympathetic scenes like him hallucinating Boromir or his monologue when taking Faramir to the tombs was cut for the theatrical versions. Which leaves us with mostly just scenes of him scowling and screaming.
Any time I watch LOTR content like this video, it just makes me want to read the books again because I realize how much I forget about what the movies changed and what the real story was.
The tomato scene, taken in context of all the knowledge from the book, makes even more of an inpression for me. A man, who makes all his actions with such great care and thought, is suddenly overwhelmed by his emotions into a horrible choice just as the world around him seems to be crumbling. The careless tomato bite feels so out of character, unlordly and done in haste directly after showing Faramir and his company riding out to a known slaughter. The tomato feels like the viscera of the son and soldiers he just threw away and Pippin's tears almost confirms it I never thought of him as a villain, some characters and their situations are too complicated for a dichotomy, he fits better in the category of tragedy than villainy
Appendix A makes it more than a glimpse. Aragorn, in the guise of 'Thorongil' served alongside Denethor under Steward Ecthelion II. Even then, the two were so alike they seemed to be near kin, and they always counselled the Steward in the same way - except that Thorongil argued that Mithrandir should be welcomed and trusted.
although his story has nothing to do with what im going through, i feel this on a metaphorical level. i needed to hear this video at this time in my life. thank you for doing this, this really helped me.
Very good! From the books, I always took Denethor as a mourning old man who was being shown false tales of his end and the end of his reign. Certainly prideful, but more so full of despair and suffering great loss. I thought they handled the fact the Boromir was his favorite pretty well. I can also admit that they could have added a LOT of depth, had their been time.
A correction, and one that points to the complexity of Denethor’s character: in Faramir’s lore-wisdom he takes after his father: Faramir, like Denethor and _unlike_ Boromir, is almost pure Númenorian throw-back.
I love John Noble's portrayal of the live action Denethor, even in its inaccuracies, because, to me, his performance is very captivating. For a more accurate adaptation of the book character, however, I'll always look to the Rankin-Bass animation. That version portrays the broken man who stared into the abyss and could not pull himself away when it stared back
I love the irony that Book!Denethor criticised Gandalf for telling half truths, and then didn't realise that Sauron was feeding him half-truths through the palantir. The ships he saw that were the straw that broke the camel's back ended up being full of Aragorn's troops, and it's also implied that Sauron made his troops look subtly more numerous than they actually were and that Frodo had been captured.
Hey Jess! Ive subscribed to many lord of the rings folks here on TH-cam and learned much, I feel your on a different level. You've painted a different picture of Denethor and you've done that in a beautiful way which changed my opinion, here's to subscribing and delving into your videos!
Check out MyHeritage at bit.ly/JessofTheShire and use my code JOTS to get free shipping!
I decided to buy their kit so I can compare results with AncestryDNA. I used your link. :)
*Do you trust governments* to not decree by (new) law to force such businesses to hand over that DNA data?
Imagine WHO makes another fearmongering push and then governments claim they need that data for effective spread control of a pathogen.
Turin should have taken advantage of this offer.
@@Jess_of_the_Shire Thanks Jess. My son had a dna test done some time ago, not surprisingly 96% of my heritage is Scottish, who'd have thought...(if I can extrapolate from his result).
the picture restoration feature is amazing!
Denethor in the book is a warning to the dangers of doom-scrolling.
I was so unbearably depressed during 2022 because of doom scrolling sites that were going on about the worst case scenarios of a second civil war and fascist right-wing regimes coming to power. Granted we should still watch out for the latter, but the former was a bit silly and overly sensational in retrospect.
@@sebastianevangelista4921I think you will be okay. Radical Italian syndicalists are in short supply these days.
@@sebastianevangelista4921 Both are overly sensational, really.
@@LordVader1094you think trump wouldn't be a full-on Putin puppet dictator if he could?? I would say authoritarianism is the real danger in the US today and it's already in early-middle stages... I have more freedom of speech and everything else here in Europe than I did in the US. No, not because I want to say racist shit (which you can), but i mean everything (guns too, just get registered!!) Trump structured his government to give (mainly just) him but also his billionaire politician and judge buddies more control and overreach. Right wing? Fine, but today US corporations and government are directly connected in many ways, and american conservatives continually vote for more rights for both. Less for working people. And the DNC is more about money than anything else. So yeah, it's not insane to see total dystopia there in the near future... I imagine a McDonald's defense contractor off branch made up of Crips in the near future, taking territory from taco bell 😂😂😂
I always assumed it was the result of looking into the Palantíri. And the manipulation for his mind by Sauron. Why fight an enemy when they are defeated in their own mind and won't fight back. That is how I read it.
My jaw dropped when Denethor pulled out the Palantir. I read the books after watching the films and had no idea how much more complex he originally was.
When the Nemenorians came to Middle Earth, they brought the palantirs so they could quickly communicate with each other in Anor, Gondor, and Numenor. But the main palantir was sunk, as Numenor sunk. When reading the Lord of the Rings, I thought the eye of Sauron resulted from using the palantir from the Tower of the Moon. Denethor had the palantir from the Tower of the Sun.
@@hartzogLovesScience You're spot on, yes. Sauron's Palantir is the one that was in Minas Ithil.
Book Denethor feels like a Game of Thrones character who has been dropped into Tolkien’s world. He has a bleak, cynical mindset that directly attacks Tolkien’s own values, which makes him one of the most modern-feeling characters in LotR. He can’t stand Faramir’s aggressively pure nature and basically accuses him of putting on an act-you can almost imagine his criticism coming out of George R. Martin’s mouth.
Denethor also has flashes of compassion and regret that make his character even more unsettling. He’s really one of the few morally gray characters in the book.
I'll always say, - beyond the theme-destroying changes to Denethor and Faramir, and the cutting of Imrahil from the plot, the thing that baffles me most about the RotK film:
Gandalf Outright Murders Denethor... In front of his own guards.
Denethor is panicking on the floor, and a swift slap with a staff would calm him down (or knock him out!). But Gandalf kicks Shadowfax forwards across the room, rears up to Denethor and has the horse kick him onto a burning pyre, knowing he's dripping in oil. - Then gives a James Bond'esc quip as he watches the poor man run away in fear and agony! - What a dick?!
In the books, Beregond is exiled from Minas Tirith by Aragorn of all people, for even daring to leave his guard-post, without permission.
In the films, Gandalf murders the Steward and Marshal of all Gondor, in front of witnesses... *totally fine - he's got wizard's immunity*.
Book Denethor took the torch, lit his oil-covered pyre, and lay down on it, holding his Palantir, even after Faramir had been reclaimed to safety. Clear suicide. So why the logic-defying change? Is Gandalf meant to be "a badass"?
Gandalf is a literal angel even in the films....
I think it's worth noting that in the book, Denethor sending Faramir back out to the city of Osgiliath was not meant to be a mere suicide run. The post "Collections: The Siege of Gondor, Part II" from the blog "A Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry" summarizes this nicely:
"Faramir’s return to the city (RotK 90) comes before the assault on Osgiliath. So instead of sending Faramir on a suicide charge against some stone walls, Denethor is instead sending Faramir out with what reinforcements can be spared to Osgiliath.
This changes the character of Denethor’s decision. He is aware (Faramir has indeed just told him) that any troops sent at this point to defend the crossing are likely to suffer high casualties. To ‘spend’ (as he puts it) his own sons so is perhaps callous and certainly ruthless, but it has sound sense to it. Faramir is the finest captain he has, and this is a difficult but necessary assignment. No one - not even Faramir - suggests calling back the forces at Osgiliath or further north at Caer Andros (which has, in fact, at this point already fallen, but this is not known yet)."
On Faramir coming back wounded, far more people make it back with him, and they draw the armies of Mordor to get smashed by the forces of Gondor:
"The rearguard, one mile out is “a more ordered mass of men…marching not running, still holding together,” supported by Faramir’s cavalry (RotK, 102). Holding together a retreat like this is incredibly difficult - the inherent psychological urge in humans to run would be nearly overpowering - suggesting that Faramir really is the masterful captain he’s cracked up to be. The retreat, harried by enemy cavalry and ring-wraiths, finally breaks into a rout ‘scarcely two furlongs’ from the city (440 yards), when Faramir is injured.
Denethor - having coolly observed all of this - now releases his sortie (which he had held prepared all morning) like a boss. In breaking through the defenses and pursuing Faramir’s forces, the vanguard of the army of Mordor is strung out and has its formation all broken up (there’s that friction again). Denethor’s sortie reminds me of the Battle of Hastings (1066) - there William (the Conqueror)’s Norman knights had charged the Anglo-Saxon line, which had held and when a cry went up that William was killed (he wasn’t), had retreated. The less disciplined Anglo-Saxon fyrdmen (the levy infantry) charged down the hill after them in a pell-mell pursuit much like the one Faramir just lured the orcs and Southrons into. Thereupon William, having gotten control of his forces, promptly wheeled them around and charged the Anglo-Saxons out in the open, annihilating them. Infantry out of formation is extremely vulnerable to cavalry."
The book is so much more intelligent than the movie in this particular scene.
For Denethor's suicide I think it's well worth looking at the details of events Tolkien writes down, especially for March 13 3019 from the aoppendices
"Frodo captured by the Orcs of Cirith Ungol. The Pelennor is overrun. Faramir is wounded. Aragorn reaches Pelargir and captures the fleet. Théoden in Drúadan Forest. Denethor looks in the palantir.
Then from the text, when Denethor returns from his “secret room under the summit of the Tower” with his face “grey, more deathlike than his son’s” and his words to Pippin on the next page “the Enemy has found it, and now his power waxes”
Sauron has shown him, as well as a black fleet sailing up the Anduin to Minas Tirith, that the spy that was sent into Mordor has been captured. Sauron doesn't know that Frodo was carrying the One Ring, as Sam took it when he thought Frodo had been killed. It was probably just one of the things Sauron showed to Denethor, probably including the orc army he had sent into Calenardon to block any help Rohan might send, and a final vision of a captive halfling in the Tower of Cirith Ungol.
Denethor doesn't know that the army of Rohan has bypassed that orc army, thanks to the Druedain, nor does he know Aragorn is sailing to the relief of the city in that fleet. He does know that a halfling was sent into Mordor with the Ring to destroy it, because Faramir told him so, and he now knows that that halfling has been captured - which means Sauron now has the Ring.
I think it's that which tips him over into despair, rather than just the black fleet. From what Denethor knows, or thinks he knows, Minas Tirith will certainly fall just as Arnor fell before it, and there is nothing that can save it.
@@terrystewart1973 Sauron wouldn't be able to show Denethor anything about Frodo, because Sauron wasn't yet aware of Frodo's capture (he only learned of it several days later when that Orc brought the Mithral Coat, Barrow-blade & Elven Cloak to Barad Dur). Also, Sauron at this point was convinced that Aragorn had the Ring.
@@TheMarcHicks I think their capture of someone had been reported, and the Watchers of the Tower of Cirith Ungol certainly alerted a Nazgul when Sam and Frodo escaped from the tower, see the start of Chapter Two, 'The Land of Shadow'. Also as I said there is that quote from Denethor, after he looked in the palantir, “the Enemy has found it, and now his power waxes”
@@terrystewart1973 he was only assuming it was found because he was so certain that sending it away would result in that outcome, & all the evidence seemed to point that way too. His despair was fed by seeing the full extent of Sauron's forces held in reserve within Mordor itself. The forces of the Tower of Cirith Ungol and of Minas Morgul knew that something had reached the pass through the mountain, but they had no idea how many or of what kind they were. Sauron wasn't omniscient (not even Manwe is), which is how Aragorn was able to keep him distracted from his true danger.
@@TheMarcHicks And Sauron is the one picking and choosing what Denethor sees, because he can perceive his deepest fears, and uses the Palantir to feed them.
Which is also one last point FOR Denethor.
When Sauron showed him Frodo in the tower of Cirith Ungol, Denethor, in all his despair, did NOT let Sauron see just WHAT he had captured.
Sauron didn't know that Frodo had the ring. To him the strange halfling was nothing but a spy his orcs and Shelob had caught.
And Denethor managed to control his emotional response enough that Sauron didn't notice just HOW important that supposed "spy" had been.
Just HOW MUCH his capture shook Denethor, more than the vast armies of the south, the Rohirrim not coming or the corsairs of Umbar making sail for the city.
Denethor believed the battle to be lost. He believed that very soon Sauron would have the ring back and the west would fall.
Yet, out of sheer principle he defied and resisted Sauron just ONE last time.
And that last act of resistance helped save middle earth.
Even though Denethor would never realize it.
The way Aragorn and Denethor are alike is shown in multiple ways. One I like to point out: Only two characters go against the council of Gandalf himself and are proved right to do so: Aragorn (when he looks in the palantír) and Denethor (when he orders the Fords of Anduin defended before the Battle of the Pelennor Fields). Aragorn's revealing himself to Sauron and using the palantír is crucial to Sauron's haste and Aragorn's choice to brave the Paths of the Dead. Denethor's decision to defend the fords holds back Mordor's advance for about two days. Without that delay, Théoden's riders and Aragorn's relief force would have been too late to save Minas Tirith.
Without the casualties incurred bu defending the Fords, the city might have been able to hold out for those two days
@@waltonsmith7210 Good point, but I disagree for two reasons: Holding the fords allowed the garrison at Cair Andros to retreat to Minas Tirith (Gandalf mentions this briefly as he comes back from the battle at the fords to report). We don't know the numbers involved, but at the least the losses at the fords would have been mitigated by that retreat not ending in annihilation.
But even so, it's not numbers that hold out against the Lord of the Nazgûl. It's hope and courage, the will to resist. By the time Rohan arrives, the city's defenders only hold firm where Gandalf and Dol Amroth are, and they have to stay by the gate to prevent it from falling. Two more days of that would have been even more disastrous. Orcs would have swarmed the walls and been inside the city, whether the gate held or not.
Interesting. I never thought of that.
Denethor described in Unfinished Tales:
"It may noted that the effects were different. Saruman fell under the domination of Sauron and desired his victory, or no longer opposed it. Denethor remained steadfast in his rejection Sauron, but was made to believe that his victory was inevitable, and so fell into despair. The reasons for this difference were doubt that in the first place Denethor was a man of great strength of will, and maintained the integrity of his personality until the final blow of the (apparently) mortal wound of his only surviving son. He was proud, but this was by no means merely personal: he loved Gondor and its people, and deemed himself appointed by destiny to lead them in this desperate time. And in the second place the Anor-stone was his by right, and nothing but expediency was against his use of it in his grave anxieties. He must have guessed that the Ithil-stone was in evil hands, and risked contact with it, trusting his strength. His trust was not entirely unjustified. Sauron failed to dominate him and could only influence him by deceits."
I want to highlight how GOOD Denethor was. He contended directly with the will of Sauron and his love and loyalty to Gondor was so great that he could not be broken. Saruman, a Maia, was dominated by Sauron. Saruman new Iluvatar, saw the creation of the world, saw Morgoth's defeat, and yet was still broken by Sauron. Yet the good in Denethor won out when contesting Sauron. The fact that Sauron could only ever turn Denethor against himself, and misguide his sense of duty is a testament to Denethor's virtue.
That's not just him being good, it's also Denethor being a Numenorean, heir to the people that had crafted the Palantíri for their own use. The stones obeyed him because he was a rightful user, unlike Saruman despite all his lore and unlike Sauron and all his power. The virtue to able to use the stones was in his blood, not his mind and heart.
@@CleoThornSchmitz ....yes that's the second half of the quote. Look back at the first part,
"...He was proud, but this was by no means merely personal: he loved Gondor and its people, and deemed himself appointed by destiny to lead them in this desperate time."
He was good, and this goodness could not be stomped out of him. It was twsted, but unbroken.
I think of it as in their Nature.
Denethor was at heart, a Numenorian Lord who would defend Gondor's honour to the last (even refusing to take the Kingship when prompted by his loyal son and heir), whereas Saruman was at heart someone who wanted control, order and discipline. A shitty Headmaster/principal, perhaps, - or bureaucrat.
2 other aspects to Book Denethor 1) the premature death of his wife, Boromir and Faramir's mother - losing a counterweight to his mental battle of wills against Sauron. 2) Denethor knew Aragorn , from when a young Aragorn (going under the nom de guerre of (I think) Thorongil) had fought with both the Rohirrim and the men of Gondor. If memory serves, Aragorn / Thorongil rose to be a trusted lieutenant of Denethor's father, Echthelion II. Aragorn / Thorongil had led a Gondorian raid against the port of Umbar,. There had been rumors that Echthelion would look to Thorongil for a successor, passing over Denethor, but after the raid against Umbar, Thorongil disappeared. That HAD to have an effect upon a young Denethor...
This explains a lot
I think also that early interaction/rivalry with Aragorn might be part of what made him hate the parts of himself and therefore Faramir also that were like Aragorn, that parts that were not pure warrior.
“Denethor... was as like to Thorongil as to one of nearest kin, and yet was ever placed second to the stranger in the hearts of men and the esteem of his father.”
“Faramir the younger was like [Boromir] in looks but otherwise in mind. He read the hearts of men as shrewdly as his father, but what he read moved him sooner to pity than to scorn. He was gentle in bearing, and a lover of lore and of music, and therefore by many in those days his courage was judged less than his brother’s. But it was not so, except that he did not seek glory in danger without a purpose. He welcomed Gandalf at such times as he came to the City, and he learned what he could from his wisdom; and in this as in many other matters he displeased his father.
The biggest diff between book and movie is his relationship w Pippin. In the book, this humanises Denethor. Theoden and Merry have a simpler, healthier friendship. But Pippin reminds Denethor of simpler, happier - pre Thorongil - times
"As Steward, you are charged with the protection of this city... Where are Gondor's Armies!?"
Well...
I sent for all able men of Gondor over a week ago and they are converging on the city in a convoy of thousands.
I sent the Red Arrow yesterday to Rohan, and lit the War beacons to warn our neighbours.
I've been rebuilding the perimeter wall for months and set guards.
I've stationed a huge garrison at the only two river crossings the enemy can use.
I have constant riders running back and forth relaying orders and intel.
I've sent all women and children away into the heartlands, leaving more provisions for the fortress. Rationing has been set for siege.
I've set the battlements, charged the catapults, and fed the horses.
I've laid out battle strategies for armored sorties to defend any retreat.
And I've spent the last week having a psychic battle with a demonic demi-god, to survey the approaching enemy.
My son's dead, my wife's dead, my allies are absent, and my back aches from sleeping in Chainmail these past twenty years...
What have you done, Twat'dalf?
Denethor is easily my favourite character in the books. He is all too human, and his dialogue is so rich.
And I just love the irony of Gandalf warning Pippin about not trying to trick Denethor moments before he himself tries and fails to do so.
Have you ever noticed that "Theoden" and "Denethor" are almost anagrams? You can spell "Theoden" out of "Denethor," but you can't do the reverse, for there is no "R" in "Theoden."
"It may stand for Ruler," as Galadriel might say, "but it may also stand for Ring."
Befitting the fact that Theoden, while a mess when we meet him, rallies and goes to join his ancestors in whose company he will not be out of place, while Denethor, much more in control when he meets Gandalf and Pippin, finishes up a deranged suicide
"He is cruel, infuriating, and really bad at eating tomatoes." I almost fell out of my chair laughing! This video was a level of understanding and teaching that is worthy of great praise.
he truly is just a greek tragedy hero living out the last act of his play in the middle of the lord of the rings. i love how tolkeins world feels so real because so many stories have been woven into this one
Reading Return of the king gave me a lot more appreciation to Denethor as a character, someone who really seemed to me like just a silly villain in the movie.
And while I understand why the decision to alter him was made, it's still a bit sad to see such a tragic story ommitted from the film.
Exactly!
It's one of many reasons that Return of the King is the weakest of the three films.
A bunch of people excuse PJ's decisions too much. A bunch of the changes it weren't necessary and would've made the movies better without.
But alas where did they have the time?...
I think, one reason why Denethor has become so bitter towards Faramir is because he's become bitter towards himself.
As you said, when looking at the kind of archetype they are, Denethor is far more similar to Faramir than Boromir.
I imagine that Faramir's idealism reminds Denethor too much of his own youth, before decades of fighting a losing war kicked all valour and confidence out of him. When he sees Faramir talking about kindness and bravery, all he can think about is how his own son will learn bitter lessons, just like he did.
Jess, Good video, but I think you missed two important aspects of book Denethor's character and actions.
The First is that he knew Thorongil and suspected if not knew exactly who he was. So his comments about being replaced by a ranger of the north are real.
The second, and there are shadows of this in the film, is that he chose to wear armor under his clothes. Denethor decided that to share the burden of his people, and recognize the fact that Gondor was in a war for survival , he wanted to be physically carry the burden as well as mentally as the Steward of Gondor.
I always figured that him wearing that armor was specifically a symptom of his daddy issues, as if one day he might just break out and prove himself better than Aragorn/Thorongil in some imagined battlefield somewhere. I don't think it's an accident that the war in which he was found inferior to Aragorn was against the Corsairs, and it was his vision of the approach of the Corsair fleet that finally broke his spirit and sent him into despair. That it was Aragorn bringing reinforcements to win the battle and replace him as ruler was a symbolic ironic repeat. The shadow of the "Black Numenoreans" were the downfall of Denethor in multiple ways and levels.
Well done, well done, indeed! Some of my favorite prose in LoR is the complex relationship between Faramir and Denethor. And my greatest regret is the movie's depiction of Faramir. Keep up the good work, Jess.
It's easy to feel sorry for the Denethor of the book. His beloved wife had died young and he was unlucky enough to be born to be the ruling Steward when Sauron made his grand assault upon Gondor. And Denethor knew it. He had been dealt a losing hand. He was smart and that probably made all the pressure greater. Eventually it broke his mind.
He was not such an arrogant leader as it is easy to believe. It was his job to show pride and he was good at it. Exercising the power of the King, he maintained the tradition of only sitting on the Steward's chair, not the King's. Faramir recounts that as children, it displeased Boromir that their father was not King: "How many hundreds of years needs it to make a steward a king, if the king returns not? " he asked. "Few years, maybe, in other places of less royalty," my father answered. "In Gondor ten thousand years would not suffice."
Interesting fact:
The Return of the King was published in 1955.
Just 4 years earlier a General had given orders to his own son to defend a position to the last.
(This was French Marshal Tassigny in Indochina).
His only son Bernard followed the order - and was killed. Thereby also ending the noble line of Tassigny.
His father was deeply stricken by this, his mental health declined rapidly and he died shortly after. His last words on his death bed were: „where is Bernard?“
This story of a General sending his own son on a suicide mission was widely reported at the time. And I like to think that it was an inspiration for the Denethor-Faramir relationship.
That's sad.
interesting take. Seems perfectly plausible.
@@Mailed-Knight not sad. What were the french doing in Indochina?
@@sauromatae9728 Don't know, a lot of weaker/less-developed nations would frequently call on European nations to give them technologies and to protect them from Middle-eastern/Chinese/Japanese imperialism, I'm assuming it was something along those lines.
Don't get me wrong I don't like the French much but a father losing his son is still sad regardless of their race even one of the inferior races like French or Californian.
@@Mailed-Knight Indochina was a French colony until 1954. For a look at America's beginning involvement there, read Graham Greene's *Quiet American.*
For an account of Dienbienphu, the battle which lost Vietnam for France, read Bernard B. Fall's *Hell in a Very Small Place.*
It’s almost poetic that the characters who suffered the most from the movie adaptations are related to one another, Denethor, Boromir, and Faramir.
…. and Gimili.
@@greggs1067Still related albeit in a out of universe sense as Gimlis actor initially wanted to play Denethor.
@@dinofelis9343 Cool! I could see that working.
I really wish they had shown Denethor looking into the Palantir in the movies. It would have helped explain his despair and madness for those who haven't read the books. When I watched the movie with my sister, I tried to give her a bit more context and explain that Denethor is a much more nuanced character than he seems.
Totally agree. Even a very short shot of him gazing into it would have made a big difference to the story and character arc. But I also understand PJ and team had a huge number of such decisions to make, and hindsight is always wonderful...
@@revbenf6870 Meh, a couple seconds shaved off a couple of the sweeping-vista camera-shots and an addition of, like you said "a very short shot of him gazing into it [a palantir[" could have made a massive difference in clearing things up and making him a more complex character, as everyone has said in the comments, which he should have been by following the book's portrayal.
@@Dack.howaboutyou yes indeed.
@Dack.howaboutyou a very short scene could just further contextualize him as a villain as the only other user of Palantirs is Saruman.
To be fair he does try to burn his son alive in both versions. In the books this is like a final tragic fall but in the movie it's just a bad guy acting badly. Even in the scene where he is swearing in Pippin and he's repeating book dialogue word for word from the book he still comes off as an a hole where in the book it just seems epic.
To be fair in a different way, in the book at least and maybe-sorta the movie, he has well founded reasons to believe Faramir's alternative is either dying of a fever or being chopped to pieces by orcs while on his sickbed.
In the books, it is already established that Faramir is doomed, as no herbalist or medic in the city can heal him. Only when Aragorn (unlooked for) arrives after victory, is he able to use old-lore healing and herbs to save Faramir on his deathbed...
- This is better framing than in the film, where Pippin is crying "he's alive, he needs medicine, or any kind of medical attention" and Denethor is basically screaming "I won't have any grandchildren! So all is lost! Everyone run away and hide!"
I think that's because the book kinda whispers in our ear that Denethor is a good man and this is his tragic fall. But without these descriptors of him in the narration he would come off as just an asshole. Nothing in his actions book or film demonstrate much goodness.
@@JackChurchill101 I have to disagree. It has nothing to do with medicine or grandchildren. It's he thinks the city is to be over run and everyone killed and wanted for him and his son to go out on his own terms, not whatever the army of Sauron has planned. Even with a healer or medic can cure him so what, he will just be killed by the orcs in his hospital bed. That's what he is thinking and why he is acting like that. He has completely given up.
There is also the point that above all, Denethor loved his wife, sister to Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth. Though fair, she grew frail on the harsh rock of Minas Tirith and always longed for the sea, soon dying in early years.
I think Faramir reminds Denethor of his lost wife. And he bottles this up in harshness and battle, rather than lean towards the softness and wisdom that caused him such pain in loss before.
Thank you for tackling this character. I think that prior to the wounding of his son, book Denethor hadn't despaired completely (though he was certainly walking a tightrope). Only after looking into the Palantir after Faramir was wounded did he finally break irrevocably and completely.
ooh I've been waiting for this comparison! Book Denethor is a more nuanced character who deserves a spotlight.
It would be awesome if we got a 2D animated LoTR series that covered the material that the movie trilogy had to cut.
@@sebastianevangelista4921 I've always wanted that; they really should
@@ieatalgae Seeing as LoTR was broken up into a trilogy we could get a season per book for a total of three seasons.
I think Denethor's main problem is much simpler: despair. He loves his country, and he loves himself and his line as its rulers. He knows he is standing for a high, noble and proud kingdom with thousands of years of history. He knows he is defending it from darkness and tyranny and genocide. And yet he can't stop it from being destroyed. He's been fighting that war for decades, and his predecessors for centuries. And now it's coming to the end and he sees armies much, much larger than his converging to destroy him and he knows that whatever he does, and all the sacrifices he and his men have ever made, have been in vain. He faces the destruction of everything he dedicated his life for, and he doesn't see a shred of hope that it can be defended.
Despite that he held on knowing it was the right thing to do, that even his doomed cause was worth pursuing because it was right. But then his wife died, then Boromir died. And then Faramir (seemingly) died. And then armies parked in front of his gates and battered down his gates, and no allies turned up to help him. At that point, does anyone blame him for despairing, for giving up? For saying, to hell with it all, everything is lost, and all I've done, all I've sacrificed has been in vain. The world is now dead. At least don't let me face torture and thralldom and ridicule at the hands of these monsters. I'll seek an end to life and all this suffering, at least I shall go out on my own terms, when fate has denied me everything else, and not face even more evil.
He is a completely reasonable character. And let's not forget, that unlike in the movies, he waged the war with Mordor extremely well. Also bear in mind for how many years he resisted Sauron's influence through the palantir, never betraying his own side, something Saruman failed to do despite being a Maiar thousands of years old. He is my prime example to cite when someone says Tolkien can't do character work, along with Eowyn
Denethor's relationship with those thousands of years of history is complicated, and an essential part of his character. When he says, "The West has Failed", he's referring to the Numenorian line that, while giving rise to the Stewards also left Gondor without a king and Arnor destroyed. To Denethor, the line of Numenorian kings was an abject failure (which he elliptically refers to when throwing shade on Aragorn/Thorongil), and it was the Stewards who properly knew how to govern and protect. This is why he favored Boromir over Faramir: Bormor was non-Numenorian in character (IIRC, Eomer likens Boromir to the Rohirrim), while Faramir, ironically, reminds Denethor of his own Numenorian heritage that he now despises. Boromir and Faramir are proxies for the internal contradictions in Denethor's own character, something I well imagine Tolkien intended.
great topic! I love John Noble's performance but the cutting out of important parts of his story changes his character entirely
John Noble often doesn't seem to get the recognition he deserves. Compare Denethor with Morland Holmes in Elementary or Walter Bishop in Fringe or some of the other roles he's played. He specializes in extraordinary yet flawed characters, but so different from each other that you have to remind yourself that it's the same actor.
@@rdbury507 I loved all of those characters
@@rdbury507 Agree, and I feel he was rather squandered on the film version of Denether. He's every bit in the same league as Ian McKellen and Christopher Lee.
Great write-up. Like Boromir I think the films in their haste overshadowed the good men being "butter scraped over too much bread" by dread and grief, and went straight to making the men villains.
Film and novels have vastly different pacing. Show me an actual film that has the pacing of a novel, and I'll have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.
@@rikk319 See Carnage w/Foster and Reilly adapted from the play The God of Carnage, they did a great job of that. The cuts in LOTR have more to do with shoe horning in the Arwen and Eoywn romances.
@@rikk319 It's not strictly about the pacing, it's about subtlety and how movie studio executives for genre films love to treat the audience like they're stupid. Anything that's subtle is usually amped up to be more bombastic out of fear that the audience won't get it.
@@rikk319 The Road, by Cormac McCarthy?
Boromir never came off as a villain in the film in my opinion.
My greatest gripe with the movie is how he orders Faramir's suicidal attack.
In the books, he orders him to buy time for the fleeing civilians on Pelinor after the outer wall is breached by bombs. Is it possibly suicidal? Yes. But it isn't pointless. Every minute Faramir fights is lives saved and time bought, and he nearly makes it back until he's hit by a poisoned dart.
One cool thing about Denethor in the books is Pippin and how their respective opposite relationships with Hope help explore the palantiri, Minas Tirith, Faramir and the war from Hopelessness and Hopefulness. I like how hobbittness can be explored through the comparisons with great human lords.
The part that really needed bringing out is the effect that gazing into the palantir had on Denethor. It's made very explicit in the book. He believed that Sauron had the Ring. If it had been so, then total despair might have been justified, apart from all these other considerations. But as Tolkien seems to be cautioning (or this is Tom Shippey's take on it), in dealing with Sauron, and with magical devices beyond the present skill of men, even one's own eyes are not always to be trusted. A shot of Denethor looking into the palantir would indeed have been effective.
Aragorn was a rival of Denethor's in their youth. I've wondered if Ecthelion KNEW who Aragorn was.
@GravesRWFiA - Yes! I remember that from the appendices. Given the far sight of Denethor, it is probable of Echthelion sharing those traits, so either of them knowing the true identity of "Thorongil" does not seem out of the realm of possibility. In fact, the rumors of Echthelion favoring "Thorongil" over a young Denethor would likely have had an effect towards creating Denethor's fear of being usurped, his mistrust of Gandalf, and ( mirroring his own relationship with Echthelion) in creating the difficulties in his relationship with his own son, Faramir...
I want to see a series: young Aragorn in Gondor.
@@waltonsmith7210young is a relative measure - Aragorn would have been in his forties or so...
as a lover of both the books and the movies, I feel that the movies flattened much of the books; darkness far more shallow, hope far less bright, etc etc etc
Thanks, Jess. Very interesting.
The slanderous trivialization of Denethor is the worst of the movies' many faults. And to portray the dignified man who ate little, and slept in chainmail lest he grow weak as a foolish glutton was the worst slander.
On another point, among the many parallels with Theoden, they both lost a son to Orcs around the same time, and Denethor and Theoden died, probably within minutes of each other.
LOTR fans might enjoy the blog posts by Bret Devereaux over on A Collection Of Unmitigated Pedantry about the Siege of Gondor. He's a military historian and one of his points is that book Denethor is much more competent than movie Denethor.
The pedantic ones might enjoy it. But seriously, yes Book Denethor was much more controlled, and certainly wouldn't have sent his son and his men out to die in a futile gesture, as happens in the films. He did send them out to die nonetheless, but for a good military reason. And he himself organised the sortie which covered Faramir's retreat. Even though Gandalf stole the scene there, since Denethor hadn't anticipated winged Nazgul turning up to turn the retreat into a rout.
I really like his Lotr-series. Especially because he is not only focused on the historical accuracy of the despiction, but also on how PJ often misses the themes from the books.
The older these films get the more I appreciate the books. Also, I find it hard to imagine cherry tomatoes in Middle Earth.
While I do agree, potatoes and tobacco (pipeweed) really aren't any better...
@@Quirderph Potatoes yes, but nicotine is found not only in new world plants but in a few Australian desert herbs (bush tobacco), so I'm personally willing to bend the rule on that one.
Well, it's fantasy, a work of fiction that shouldn't be a copy and paste of our own reality. You can accept dragons, dwarves and elves, but not cherry tomatoes ??
@@Saidor570 Correct. Dragons, dwarves and elves have archetypal aspects, and so ring true, while cherry tomatoes are merely a recent genetic manipulation of a new world plant and so, placed in a fantasy context, ring about as true as would Gimli with a machine gun.. And on the subject of Gimli's weapons---and forgive me if this has been previously discussed---how, after he destroys his battle axe on a stone table (in the film) does he suddenly get a new one?
@@Michelle-Eden He carries more than one. Or, his father/fellow dwarves give him one of their own as he honorably offers to join the Fellowship and represent their people.
This was a change by PJ which made me sad, I wish there had been one short scene of him wrestling with Sauron through the Palantir.
Wonderful video! I'm so glad you explored this. I prefer the scene in the book when Gandalf and Pippin arrive in Minas Tirith as opposed to the movie. In the book, Denethor was a much more complex and interesting character in the book.
It is now roughly 50 years since I began reading Tolkien. Your ability and enthusiasm in providing analysis with such a wonderful, well researched, easy-to-understand style is like having a hobbit, a wizard and an elf princess all rolled into one person to personally deliver a compelling deep-dive masterwork every week. At the risk of being repetitive I must say, VERY well done.
And so we face the great paradox once again... The best movie version of LotR we will perhaps ever see, where almost every character is misrepresented, nearly all the plotlines have been altered, and few details are presented accurately. But somehow it still manages to succeed, and to transport us to the world we know and love.
i would like to add to your insights that the richness and the depth of each character as written by tolkien was so fully dimensioned that the failings, limitations and adulterations of the screenplay and adaptation still give us a strongly tolkienesque outing.
But as I thought then and still think now, Jackson should have trusted the story, his filmmaking, and the audience to not simplify so many characters into standard tropes.
I so wish so many of the characters were not made into one-dimensional cynical caricatures in the film. You get the impression Jackson didn't trust the intelligence of the audience and wanted to simplify everything-yet the most successful character portrayals were those like Frodo and Aragorn who kept most of their complexity.
Negatory. The films are painful, missing out on much of what made the books good.
Basically the shoddy writing was saved by every other department in the production being absolutely on point. The writing team was the weak link, and by quite a large margin.
Good take. Denethor of the books is human, has faults, and winds up in a hell of the dire fall out from using the Palantir, which is essentially of his own making, perhaps due to temptation to use its power to aid Gondor. Denethor clearly is starting to fail but he is far more noble than bad, and clearly a guardian of Gondor, than in the movie. Denethor appears to not want information from Gandalf, and we find out later why. He thought he was more knowledgeable than even the wizard, because he was using the Palantir. In the end this could be considered to be the essence of his error - the Palantir was being used to trick him.
Denethor's character arc is highly truncated and truly loses the great nuance in the movies. Gandalf makes many interesting statements about Denethor, especially regarding his powers of perception, and his ability to discern when being told truth. We see this in Faramir in ample amount in other parts of the Trilogy.
Cool observation of Theoden and Denethor. Their book arcs are opposite. Theoden starts out hobbled by his advisor Wormtongue and influence from Orthanc. Eventually he follows the arc and becomes truly great, able to visit his forbears without shame. Denethor starts out with continuing nobility, but over time his use of the Palantir and encountering Sauron's influence there, his nobility is sapped and he falls into final disaster. This matter of the Palantir is complex in itself, and is perhaps a Tolkien lesson if we admit it.
As usual with Tolkien there are so many elements and thoughts one can derive from delving deeply into the master author's words and the fullness of his tales. To me Denethor is just a brief "feint" a zig zag from a direct line for Aragorn taking the realm as its rightful King. Instead we have Faramir and the people of Gondor make the decision to take Elessar (Aragorn) as their true King. Hopefully most know that in the books Aragorn is NOT reluctant to become King, but is very careful not to rush upon his new role, preferring to let events unwind, and for his rightful role to become clear over time. In the movie they distort it to make it like Aragorn is not interested in Kingship.
I always liked the contrast between Denethor and Theoden, and how they ultimately deal with grief and hopelessness.
You made a great point about Gandalf. Gandlaf's "management style" was really poor and somewhat antagonizing. It's very understandable why someone like Denethor would distrust him.
Jackson and his screenwriters definitely made Denethor a lot more one dimensional and antagonistic than the book, a choice I can understand given the limitations they were facing. John Noble’s Shakespearean performance was over the top crazy like King Lear on steroids, but this ultimately worked with the tone of the film I think. Two of the best scenes in the picture (The Lighting of the Beacons and Pippin’s song) were more effective due to this characterization.
We really just needed a last minute reveal during the pyre of Denethor scene that he possessed a palantir which allowed Sauron to drive him to madness and despair (something the film alludes to but never confirms.) without that revelation he’s basically just a crazy power hungry jerk lol. Also his cartoonishly over the top murder at the hands of Gandalf was frankly inexcusable lol, I know Jackson loves some over the top spectacle in his fantasy but that was just silly lol. In my headcanon film Denethor dies as he did in the book, lighting himself ablaze after glimpsing the arrival of the black ships in the palantir, which prompts Gandalf and Pippin to save Faramir before he can be consumed in the flames as well. This would not only have been a powerful scene in its own right and a satisfactory conclusion to the character it would’ve added another tragic layer to the story as it would’ve foreshadowed the arrival of Aragorn who in a darkly ironic twist was actually coming with the black ships to save Gondor rather than destroy it. Oh well lol
the death of denethor in the book reminds me of lady macbeth's death for some reason
Book!Denethor is a Shakespearean character, or an operatic bass. Movie!Denethor is a joke. His book death scene is metal as fuck instead of running a whole marathon while on fire. I can't watch that without laughing.
When I read I kinda picture Nakadai Tatsuya as him. That man knows how to play tragic, fucked up characters, or madness with dignity. And he has the most intense gaze known to mankind.
Yes, I really don't like movie Denethor
@@terrystewart1973 It's a heavy weak point of the film, and makes it hard to watch at times.
Denethor in the film is very frustrating because I think John Noble gives a good performance, especially in his scenes opposite Faramir, and I felt the parts that were strong were really strong. They got him 90% right, but that makes the other 10% so much more frustrating. I hate when Gandalf starts whacking him in the face with his staff (and not a single guard reacts) just to get a rise out of the audience. And his death scene, getting set on fire and then jumping out his pyre, and running like a kilometer before jumping off a cliff also is very silly.
If Denethor was a historical figure he could count as the first victim of fake news as Sauron was able to twist his mind through the Palintir.
The change that annoyed me most was that, while in the book Denethor was without hope, he wasn't stupid. When he sends Faramir off to Osgiliath, it's still in Gondorian hands - it's a cold calculation but "the enemy must pay dearly for the crossing" (Denethor) even if the enemy "can afford to lose a host better than we to lose a company" (Faramir). However, if it thinned the enemy ranks and delayed them enough for the Rohirrim to arrive it was (he considered) worth the price. He was clearly prepared to send men (including Faramir) to their deaths, but it wasn't the pointless, suicidal charge that's shown in the film.
They really missed the opportunity to give us a complex, Shakespearean tragic villain.
Indeed. He had plenty of screentime, if they'd actually written him as he should've been it would've filled that time far better than the cartoon villain they made him into.
@@LordVader1094I hate how he refuses to light the beacons and then has the balls to say "Rohan has deserted us!" Bro, what? The Denethor of the books was coldly rational to a fault, not a gibbering idiot.He shouldve been portrayed as something closer to Tywin Lannister. He would do well in Westeros.
I have been thinking about this for months!! Glad and excited to see that someone is talking about it!!! The book Denethor is one of my favorite characters in the series as a character and I felt pretty sad how movies flattened him as a character.
Jess I could listen to you talk about LOTR for hours. Keep up the amazing work.
One of your best yet! Book Denethor is so compelling because he's relatable in a way that his John Noble's (amazing performance) is not.
I've been saving up a few of your videos for times when I'm very stressed and need to relax, and my am I ever stressed today. About to watch a whole bunch ;;;.;;;
Your observations are an absolute delight. Thank you for sharing them.
There's one thing you missed, that Girl Next Gondor brought up - Denethor really, _really_ hates Aragorn. Aragorn and Denethor met when they both were young and Aragorn served Ecthelion as Thorongil. Is he mentioning the Black Fleet because he thinks it's full of Corsairs... or is it because he knows it carries Aragorn, come to take the rule of Gondor?
Thanks for bringing that up. It was clear that Denethor knew who Aragorn was, and who he had previously been, and the book gave the impression that Ecthelion favored "Thorongil" over Denethor. Decades later, Denethor was still wearing that old armor under his clothes as if awaiting an opportunity to impress his long-dead father with some final brave move at last, and it had become a symbol of his paranoia. Daddy issues continue from one generation to the next, eh?
On a linguistic note, it's fun that both Aragorn and Gandalf seemed to acqure a long stream of pseudonyms. This is in keeping with the norse literary tradition of using alternate descriptions of people, in place of their proper name, in order to fit the alliteration of the eddic verse. Odin (as a shadowy wanderer himself) had a laundry list of nicknames that expanded with every tale about him.
In the books, it's clear that all Denethor knows is what he and Sauron see - the black sails of pirate ships.
It fooled everyone.
Also, the poster below (above) hits on the point that Ecthelion seems to favor Thorongil...in the appendices, the writers say bluntly that Denethor's father DID favor the stranger, as did everyone else in town, and so, since the counsel of both young men were exactly the same (one exception), that the wandering Eagle got the nod from all and sundry, Denethor's frustration is understandable. And he Aragorn/Thorongil does it without brown nosing ("[Aragorn] never held himself higher than the servant of his father")...a natural 20 of the die roll every time.
@@marieroberts5664 Aragorn is just that awesome.
@@Valdagast yep! And that Denethor was just a bit too arrogant, too smug, too high and mighty...when he reads you, he's more likely to see your flaws than your strengths - Faramir on the other hand, can read people as shrewdly as his father, but what he reads moves him to pity, to understanding and empathy, instead of his father's scorn. Same as Aragorn, who deals mercy with justice. So of course Denethor is jealous.
It's been a while since I read the History of Middle Earth but I think in writing Return of the King Tolkien went back and forth on this point - in the final book, you still have Pippin saying he thought it was Aragorn in the Corsair ships with no reason to back that up
I think that there is a big problem with the films in that they “mangle“ nearly all the main characters. And those of us who have read the books and watched the films, find it difficult to hang onto the pure character from the book. I fear that it may be impossible for people who were introduced to Tolkien through the films to get a good feel for the pure book characters.
I enjoyed the films but in retrospect, I wish I hadn’t seen them.
The character of Denethor was assassinated by the film. And in this video, you have rightly pointed out the weaknesses of his portrayal on the screen. However, the visual images are so powerful that I think most of us who have seen the films have been corrupted by them - we are much more “anti-Denethor” than we should be if we had not seen the films and based our opinions only on the books.
I think an example of this in your analysis is that you blame Denothor for giving the mission (to go to Rivendel) to Boromir, his favoured son. However, Boromir himself tells us that because the mission was clearly dangerous, he took the mission himself.
In addition, it’s not clear that the dream meant that Faramir was summoned to the Council of Elrond. Prophets/dreamers often have messages for a community. There is no reason to think that anybody was “going against“ the sender of the dream.
One of the themes running through the Lord of the Rings (Tolkien version) is that of Mercy. I think my first point is that we should be merciful and empathetic towards Denothor. So I want to list some of his good points.
He has been a faithful steward. There is no evidence that he has done anything other than rule Gondor well.
He has also brought up two fine sons. Both Boromir and Faramir are a credit to their father. And we must remember that he was bereaved as quite a young man and had to bring up his sons alone. I think it’s telling that both sons seem to respect him absolutely.
It cannot have been an easy time to be Steward of Gondor, with the rise of Sauron; all evidence suggests that Denethor has been a wise leader - he has really striven to keep the dark Lord at bay. Thanks to him there is a Kingdom for the King to Return to!
We must also acknowledge the impact of Grief. We only meet Denothor shortly after he has had news of the death of Boromir. For a widower to lose his first-born son must be a devastating blow. Under these circumstances, we should not expect Denothor to be able always to act well. Grief speaks loudly; when someone is grieving, we should be prepared to recognise that they do and see things which are out of character. A good example of this is the dialogue with Faramir.
I really think that you are much much too hard on a man who is grieving! You cannot and should not make judgments on a character, who we have only really met when he is consumed by Grief.
Denothor is of noble descent. But this seems to be used as a stick to beat him with! He is accused of being “proud“.
The reality may be that he operates on a higher level from most others. He is consciously competent - he knows that he is the rightful steward (he is fulfilling his destiny) and has what it takes to carry out those onerous duties.
I do not think his fatal flaw was pride, I think it was that he was isolated - a situation which is not uncommon for those carrying the burden of leadership.
And we must ask whose fault it was that he was isolated? Perhaps some of the blame should be assigned to Denethor himself, but there are questions to ask.
For example, where were the other wise counsellors to support the steward? It does not sound as though he had even a “right hand man”.
And why had Gandalf failed to provide support? Gandalf’s mission was to support the free people of Middle Earth against Sauron. He has done this brilliantly with Aragorn and ultimately well with Theoden. Why did he not make it a priority to work closely with Denothor?
Gandalf is considered to be wise. But there seems little evidence that he has acted wisely with regard to Denothor. He seems to have given Denothor reasons not to trust him.
Enough!
I’m sorry to have written it such length, but I will continue to contend that Denothor was a good man who deserves much better treatment. Be merciful! Do not judge!
Jess is so wonderful and whimsical and AWESOME
They did many characters dirty in the movies. Though Denethor is not a king he was like them and so much like Aragorn that he was said to be like near kin to him. Denethor was descended in the female line from royalty as were other Dunédain.
Agreed. You could see Denethor as what would have happened to Aragorn had he not been brought up by someone as wise and kind as Elrond.
@@EriktheRed2023 yes, as KIND as Elrond.....another character trait deliberately omitted from the films. His speech to Frodo-in the book-when he accepts the quest to destroy the Ring, is a great example of Elrond's kindness and wisdom.
From your MyHeritage ad, my wife and I have almost the same picture of ourselves from our wedding night. Love it
Canonically, Denethor is about the same age as Aragorn. When the Corsairs attacked Gondor, Aragorn (incognito as "Thorongil") went to Minas Tirith to fight them off.
You could easily imagine the complexities this caused for Denethor. Perhaps his father Ecthelion knew Thorongil's actual lineage, perhaps not. It's likely that Ecthelion held his son back from seeking glory on the battlefield, knowing his talents lay elsewhere, and to preserve the line of Stewards.
Denethor could well have been envious of the glory Thorongil won in battle. I like to think that Denethor was human enough to have taken comfort in his family (Finduilas, who he loved deeply) and his children, and that he only started to spiral downwards when his wife died.
In any case, he probably saw Boromir as the equal of Aragorn, and perhaps a way of redeeming whatever he thought his own failures or shortcomings were in that regard.
What if Faramir had been in the Fellowship? It's hard to say what role his brother's death played, in his rejection of the Ring. Maybe each brother would have done the same.
The battle with the Uruks at Amon Hen was a critical juncture in the story, as was Boromir's temptation immediately before; it's hard to say how it would have turned out, if the characters had been in different places at the time.
As far as old Denethor goes, if Boromir had survived, it's entirely possible that Boromir could have sworn fealty to Aragorn and brought his father around. Again, I like to think that the old man had a path to redemption like that.
25:00 I’m going to challenge the idea that Denethor is “seeing more clearly than anyone”; he has looked into the palantír. The palantÍr can be used by those of strong enough will to show others of weaker will images of their choosing. Sauron has shown Denethor visions of Sauron’s making. Sauron has shown Denethor the might of his army, which was most likely inflated to demoralize and destroy the thought of resistance. He has shown Denethor the destruction of Gondor and the end of free men in Middle Earth. It’s these visions of chaos, death, and destruction that cloud Denethor’s judgement and make him refuse to accept hope; but instead embrace his own destruction.
I never got "evil" or "villainous" from movie Denethor. I got "Mad & broken king"
The truth about the Jackson movies: They’re hideously bowdlerized. All sorts of interesting characters are done dirty.
Thank you Jess. Indeed there was a sad slight of the struggling Denethor in the film adaptation. I appreciate your videos and glad we share some similar thoughts about a lot of these character adaptations. Have a great weekend.
Your reading of these excerpts kind of makes me want to hear your audio version of the whole trilogy. You know, once you have a bunch of free time.
The politics of Aragorn waiting in the wings as potential king, and what Denethor might think about that, is touched on rather lightly and subtly in the books . . . almost less than the movies, in a way, because in the movies Boromir says a couple of things about that. The first time I read the books, when I was a kid, I pretty much missed it entirely. But it is there, sometimes mentioned directly, sometimes subtext. And I can see where if I were Denethor, the situation is that I and my line have been perfectly good rulers, in some ways better than the kings were, and I know this wizard is trying to maneuver to have me usurped by some chieftain who's the boss of a bunch of vagabonds in the far northwest, thousands of miles away, whose line has had nothing to do with Gondor for like 20 generations or something. And now he says he's here to help. Of course I'm going to be a tad suspicious.
This was a great one. Denethor is so different in the adaptation that it's good to get this deep look.
Also, the hair looks great.
I actually didn’t even think that the palantir that Aragorn uses in the extended edition was exclusive to the white tower. I figured it was still the same one that Gandalf recovered from Saruman. I don’t think they explain it at all.
Aragorn uses the Orthanc stone that is presented to him by Gandalf. The Anor stone never leaves Minas Tirith.
@@30110CKs The Anor stone functionally does not exist in the films.
"and really bad at eating tomatoes". Marvelous. :)
13:46 this is actually why Spock was like this. The actor was a huge fan, and made many traits of Vulcans around various figures within MiddleEarth.
Amazing point I never considered.
On thinking the world is too depressing now:
My great aunt thought the 1950’s was a bad time to have children what with the hydrogen bomb and everything. In old age she had no children and wished my mother would visit her as often as mom visited her own mother. She should have gambled on the future and had her own children. I would visit her when I went to California, but only a fraction of the time my grandmothers got.
We are living through a more obviously disintegrative period (an apocalypse, as it were) but for the average person things are generally better than ever.
It's not like history is an incline or decline. It's a sort of living vortex. There is no doubt my ancestors would envy what we have, but they would admit as much as anybody paying attention that we are not making the best of it.
Well you could say your great aunt was more Denethor-like, but like him, she did have reason on her side. That the world wasn't destroyed by the Cold war turning hot was arguably luck, or as Tolkien would have said, Providence.
This is a philosophical debate which will probably continue forever, between those advocates of rationalism, and those with faith. Perhaps the divide isn't absolute, as the rationalists still need something to believe in, and the faithful can't entirely abandon reason. But where you draw the line can be hard. Denethor had every reason to believe that entrusting the Ring to a 'witless halfling' was a huge mistake, even though Gandalf had a good rationale for that, other than faith (halflings were incredibly stealthy, resilient and had proved extremely resistant to the Ring's allure). But the mission to destroy the Ring was still a pretty desperate enterprise, and would have failed but for Providence.
So the point is made: both Denethor and your aunt were more thoughtful than many who purely had faith that the apocalypse wouldn't happen. They happened to be wrong, but they had their reasons.
"It takes a special kind of evil to turn a human being into an antagonist"
Agree to disagree I guess. I think it's particularly easy to make a human an antagonist because we have a uniquely personal relationship with humans in our real lives. Maybe it's just me, but it doesn't take a lot to make me hate a human in a story lol
For the most part I view the changes in the movie as positive, like cutting out Tom Bombadil, giving Glorfindel's role to Arwen, etc., I also have neutral feelings towards the book/movie differences for characters like Gandalf and Éowyn, cuz I like both versions, but in this case it's impossible to contest the fact that book Denethor is way cooler...
One thing the book brought out was the near certain knowledge Denethor had of the king returning, In the days of his youth Aragorn under another name had done great deeds in Minas Tirith. Denethor was too proud to accept that even if they won, he would no longer be the ruler,
P.S. my sister taught me how to read from the Hobbit when I was 4 yrs old. I also had the Ralph Bakshi Hobbit then , which didn't hurt. It's pretty tight. The music in that is brilliant.
Jackson, Walsh, and Boyens seemed bot to like the Dunedain. The changes they made diminished all of the Dunedain characters from book to movie ostensibly to create character arcs where the writers thought none existed or at least none to their liking for the film. This treatment is near universal. From Aragorn's lingering insecurity to Denethor's paralytic despair and spite, to the general ineptitude of the soldiers of Gondor, there is an undercurrent of disdain. I would be curious to know if the writers were ever asked how they chose to write the Dunedain.
The other component to Denethor's despair is that no matter who wins, he looses. The black Corsair sails he dreads bring Thorongil, his long ago rival, to secure victory at the Pellanor Fields to secure (temprary) victory for the West. However, bowing to that ragged Ranger from the forgotten North, is only one step removed from kneeling before the Dark Lord. In this he is analogous to Saruman, who was jealous of Gandalf for millennia because Cirdan chose to give Gandalf, Narya, the Elven Ring of Fire. Pride and jealousy left to ferment over decades or centuries ultimately exploded and destroyed these failed leaders of the West. It brings to mind Saruman's epitaph from Unfinished Tales that could also be applied to Denethor: " And Curunir Lan, Saruman the White fell from his high errand, and becoming proud and impatient and enamored of power sought to have is own will by force, and to oust Sauron; but he was ensnared by that dark spirit, mightier than he." Different tactics by Sauron the Deceiver, same results.
Honestly, they really diminished all of the characters. It's like Jackson wanted them to be emotionally vulnerable, rather than complex.
It is strange, isn't it? They do such a good job pushing the Rohirrim to the fore and portraying them in a proper epic manner befitting the books, yet the Gondorians are never given a single moment to shine.
@@LordVader1094 I've looked online and have not seen Jackson address the issue. There is a pretty clear bias against the Dunedain. Perhaps the fact that they are the beneficiaries of divine eugenics or that they represent ideal noble feudalism did not set well with the writers.
@@LordVader1094 Yes, and there's a sense that the Rohirrim are the elite fighters compared to their Gondorian equivalents. For example, when Faramir leads his cavalry in a desperate attempt to drive the Orcs back, they are practically wiped out by archers. When the Rohirrim turn up at the Pelennor Fields, the orcs try the same tactics, but they are just brushed off, and swept away. The implication is, the REAL cavalry has turned up this time.
This was also reflected in one of the video games based on the films, Battle for Middle Earth, where the elite components of the Armies of Men were the Rohirrim cavalry, and Dunedain Ranger archers. Gondor mostly got the unexciting foot sloggers. And no one ever bothered to build their cavalry.
Most importantly, in the book we don’t get that gorgeous performance from Billy Boyd
100%
Yeah, for all the characters that got a bit shorted in the movies, Pippin did not. The song was great, but still my favorite part is him and Gandalf talking about death.
this is balanced by having to watch Denethor eat a salad, mind you.
Personally, I was aghast at depicting Denethor messily eating with tomato juice dripping down his chin. That does not match Denethor’s lineage and envisioned upbringing.
@@josephd.5524 But we're not just watching anyone eat a salad, we're watching Dr. Walter Bishop eat a salad!
I think another layer is that Denethor associated Faramir with the death of his wife. As always, beautiful video, I'm enamored of your voice
What a great topic! Amazing video. I think the key word is DEPTH. Who spends the time to flesh out a 3rd tier antagonist? The Professor did. It really show that while this HUGE story is going on, there are many other orbits of folk with their motivations.
One thing to not overlook is the poor parenting that Denethor sets an example for. Yikes! Faramir may end up with the girl, but he'll have decades of therapy ahead!
You are sweet, kind, and terribly wise. I appreciate your work and insight. Tolkien has been in my side-sight since I was a young boy. You have reignignited his powerful work in my mind and heart. Peace.
Regarding the lack of character development in the movies: people have often said to me “oh, it’s a movie, can’t have endless dialogue and character development because there’s not enough time “. My response has always been that there’d have been more time for that if all the Jackson hadn’t invented scenes and situations that weren’t in the books.
My response is usually "If you can't properly tell the story with a movie, maybe don't make a movie about that story."
That whole stupid subplot about Aragorn falling off the cliff...
"My response has always been that there’d have been more time for that if all the Jackson hadn’t invented scenes and situations that weren’t in the books." That was Christopher Tolkien's point "Do not ADD!". I agree. You have to cut things because of time constraints but there's no excuse for adding what is essentially fanfiction.
@@archvaldor That's why my opinion of Jackson, Boyens, and Walsh has steadily eroded over the last 20 years. Everything they've added has been junk padding and I can't even imagine what they have planned for _The Hunt for Gollum_
Agreed. That, and he probably should have put more events into TTT rather than saving them all for ROTK.
That was a perfect ad transition!
New fan of the channel, I love your long form content and I hope you keep making more, I love these deep dives
Love from Syria
It’s unfortunate that a lot of Denethor’s quieter and more sympathetic scenes like him hallucinating Boromir or his monologue when taking Faramir to the tombs was cut for the theatrical versions. Which leaves us with mostly just scenes of him scowling and screaming.
Nicely done. Enjoyed that
Any time I watch LOTR content like this video, it just makes me want to read the books again because I realize how much I forget about what the movies changed and what the real story was.
The tomato scene, taken in context of all the knowledge from the book, makes even more of an inpression for me.
A man, who makes all his actions with such great care and thought, is suddenly overwhelmed by his emotions into a horrible choice just as the world around him seems to be crumbling.
The careless tomato bite feels so out of character, unlordly and done in haste directly after showing Faramir and his company riding out to a known slaughter. The tomato feels like the viscera of the son and soldiers he just threw away and Pippin's tears almost confirms it
I never thought of him as a villain, some characters and their situations are too complicated for a dichotomy, he fits better in the category of tragedy than villainy
An interesting point glimpsed in the books is that the young Denethor could well have met Aragon in the past.
Appendix A makes it more than a glimpse. Aragorn, in the guise of 'Thorongil' served alongside Denethor under Steward Ecthelion II. Even then, the two were so alike they seemed to be near kin, and they always counselled the Steward in the same way - except that Thorongil argued that Mithrandir should be welcomed and trusted.
although his story has nothing to do with what im going through, i feel this on a metaphorical level. i needed to hear this video at this time in my life. thank you for doing this, this really helped me.
Very good! From the books, I always took Denethor as a mourning old man who was being shown false tales of his end and the end of his reign. Certainly prideful, but more so full of despair and suffering great loss. I thought they handled the fact the Boromir was his favorite pretty well. I can also admit that they could have added a LOT of depth, had their been time.
A correction, and one that points to the complexity of Denethor’s character: in Faramir’s lore-wisdom he takes after his father: Faramir, like Denethor and _unlike_ Boromir, is almost pure Númenorian throw-back.
I love John Noble's portrayal of the live action Denethor, even in its inaccuracies, because, to me, his performance is very captivating. For a more accurate adaptation of the book character, however, I'll always look to the Rankin-Bass animation. That version portrays the broken man who stared into the abyss and could not pull himself away when it stared back
You do a fantastic job with these Jess ❤
I, for one, would like to hear more from you about Denethor.🙂
I love the irony that Book!Denethor criticised Gandalf for telling half truths, and then didn't realise that Sauron was feeding him half-truths through the palantir. The ships he saw that were the straw that broke the camel's back ended up being full of Aragorn's troops, and it's also implied that Sauron made his troops look subtly more numerous than they actually were and that Frodo had been captured.
23:32 "Go forth and fight!" 🤷♂️
Your delivery on these exerpts is so good. 😂😂😂
Hey Jess! Ive subscribed to many lord of the rings folks here on TH-cam and learned much, I feel your on a different level. You've painted a different picture of Denethor and you've done that in a beautiful way which changed my opinion, here's to subscribing and delving into your videos!
I feel you'd record amazing audio books, your readings are a delight!