Why You Should Care About The Amount of Flour You Use for Tangzhong/Yudane
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 ม.ค. 2023
- Today, we're furthering our discussion on Tangzhong/Yudane, going deeper into frequently asked about topics, such as how the amount of flour used for Tangzhong/Yudane will affect the resulting bread and the many applications of this method. While Tangzhong/Yudane is frequently treated like a set ingredient, we prefer to think of it as a derivative ingredient, where changes in how we make the Tangzhong/Yudane can seriously affect our bread. This way of thinking about Tangzhong/Yudane opens up a much wider view of how we can use it, which we cover in this video based on science! From making a bread slightly sweeter to giving a homemade pizza a softer cornicione, we're going to show you how to improve your home baking with research papers. Watch the video for more!
#tangzhong #pizza #bread
References
Research Papers
1. The Staling and Texture of Bread Made Using the Yudane Dough Method
Hiroaki Yamauchi et. al.
Food Science and Technology Research.
doi.org/10.3136/fstr.20.1071
2. Effects of Water and Gelatinized Starch on the Viscoelasticity of Pizza Dough and the Texture of Pizza Crust
Matsumoto A, Nakai K, Kawai K.
J Appl Glycosci (1999). 2022;69(1):1-7. Published 2022 Feb 18.
doi:10.5458/jag.jag.JAG-2021_0014
Videos
1. Pizza with TangZhong • How to Make Better Hom...
2. Tangzhong 1:5 sucks • Why the 1:5 Flour-Wate...
3. Baguettes with Tangzhong • How to Make Better Hom... - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
My neighbor is a pastry baker while I stick to breads. She teases me often saying things like "I'm doing mathematics while you're doing arithmetic". I sent her this video.
Tease her that you are moving up to advanced calculus now, ask her to stay tuned, videos coming soon 😂😀
Really? Doesn't she know arithmetics is a branch of mathematics?! 😂
So glad you're making these videos to answer all of my absurdly specific bread questions.
Great to hear that 😀 thanks!
This is the most informative and enjoyable video I have seen in years. You have done a masterful job of explaining your position and presenting the facts. The use of a X-Y axis is just Genius. I dearly hope you keep doing this type of content!
Glad you enjoyed it! We'll try our best :)
Yes agree! Please continue!
Tangzhong was originated in Japan? I am surprised. In Germany a "Brühstück/Kochstück" is traditionally used since centuries to make a longer lasting bread.
Very impressive theoretical presentation though. Congratulations! being a physicist your descriptions make bread baking very transparent and helps getting replicable results. Chapeau
Applause!
Thank you for your kind comment.
Tangzhong (湯種) is indeed originally from Japan. The unusual Chinese name is a borrowed phrase from Japanese Kanji 湯種 which is pronounced as Yudane. Some bakers in China argue that Tangzhong originated from 烫面 (Tangmian) a scalding flour method, pretty much like "Brühstück/Kochstück", used in Chinese cooking for centuries, for example in the making of 餃子 (Jiaozi), but while the underlying principle is the same, Tangzhong/Yudane and Tangmian serve different purposes, one is more about the denaturing of protein to make the end product softer and the other is a more comprehensive method as a dough and bread improver. Yudane is said to originate from the west, we did talk about this in our old video th-cam.com/video/a2Bhe16kvCI/w-d-xo.html but there is no solid information about that, could it be "Brühstück/Kochstück"? Maybe, but then again, Yudane is a very comprehensive method developed in Japan, we may say it's influenced by the western method of scalding flour, but the development of the method is definitely Japanese.
Your content is always ahead of time. Thank you!
Thank you too!
Thank you for giving sources. So frustrating when bakers offer opinions not based on evidence. Many thanks for this video. I'm going to try these higher percentages tomorrow. (after an overnight chill)
Glad it was helpful!
I am a home bread baker and mother of a teenager. I can use this video to prove algebra can be used in everyday life.
Math makes better breads 😂
Haha, I think it’s the ONLY time I’ve seen algebra used in everyday life since I left high school in the mid-70’s 😅
First video im seeing here and im already going to subscribe, the amount of new info on something i want to learns its like a blessing
Awesome, thank you!
Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge, which is always presented in such an easily understood manner for us plebs.
My pleasure!
Halfway through and I already love how you isolate and examine Yudane/Tangzhong from so many facets: moisture, sweetness, moisture retention, etc. Thanks for these great experiments and videos!
Glad you enjoyed the video! Thank you for your kind comment :)
You are so smart and thank for explain the flour how to work in science
Again. another excellent video! I am also amazed that your audience is following the mildly complex concepts you are presenting.
We're also pleasantly surprised by that 😂 Maybe our audience is looking for something more than just a regular recipe.
Mildly complex? I didn’t know if my head was on the x or y axis half the time 😅 - But fascinating stuff, all the same.
You explain women to me, and I will gladly share about graphic data displays, LOL.
@@chrisaumaugher3732 I’m even more lost on that subject 🥴
Thank you for your interesting tutorial. It's very sophisticated and kind of overwhelming for lay people, though. Appreciated anyway. ❤
Im an engineer by course and profession, after pandemic I went home to my province and started doing business by bread making. And this yudane is what i practice, my neighborhood love my bread I guess cause my business is still going strong. For me, bread making is not just about art, it is about science. And I guess I'm proud of myself. 👌
😎 cool 😊
Yeah! And it makes you feel happy if you know you're doin' something cool right
do you add it to all breads? does it have the same effect? Im going to do this soon
i feel i got lesson from the master baker privately,tq😊
You are so genious sister..
Not only as a chef, but this was so siencetist.
There are so many information from this video, a lot of aspect including culture, grafik, sience, the effect, etc..
Well, i just love it this channel.
Good knowledge from thaizong and yudane..
Thanks for all of this..
Thanks for dropping by 🙏
Glucose (and malto dextrins) can cause massive spikes in blood sugar and insulin production, fructose and sucrose are significanly slower acting. It is important to note the context of studies on nutrition. Like when they have two seemingly contradicting results for the same molecule, the problem is likely to be some other factor or they have either failed to properly describe the categories of diets involved or they are anylizing poor quality data due to subjects self reporting. Athletic metabolic studies can sometimes be more rigerous in method.
In short: the "high consuption of refined sources" doesn't apply to anybody with the slightest understanding of nutrition. That isn't describing small variations in diet or talking about some candy between meals and a heavy dessert every night. No, those subjects are pounding a soda every waking hour of every day (and many will drink more sugar-water when they wake up in the night), while eating a diet that is 95% highly refined junk with no balance of fat, carbs, and protein, no fiber, few vitamins, and they think fried potatoes count as eating vegetables. Which is why the studies get such different results for fructose sourced from fruits and vegetables. The sort of people are fundamentally different, one goup basically eats no produce at all.
In this case fructose gets the blame but the real problem is a terrible diet all day every day. The subjects of these studies are not all cognatively gifted. Due to my prior line of work, and renting out rooms over the years I have observed how many adults basically have the diets of unsupervised children. They really don't understand anything about nutrition (most don't care anyway), and I really mean they don't know anything, even a gross simplification like the government promoted food groups is beyond their understanding.
Fructose is not just processed by the liver it is also stored in the liver as a slow release reserve of carbs to protect the brain's energy source in the event that muscles burn through their own sugar reserves as can happen during something like a marathon.
Good grief, I never expected a video on bread baking to bring back unpleasant memories of my 'Strength of Materials' class in first year engineering! 😫 Great video, but an ELI5 would be much appreciated for those of us a few decades away from the classroom...
You have done a great job at explaining all the details! With this new information, would you modify the cinnamon bun recipe that you posted six months ago?
It's in our to-do list, thank you for your comment 🙏
Thanks!
Thanks!
I don't have anything insightful to say but I enjoy these video very much.
That's a very nice thing to say, thank you!
Love your videos regarding Tangzhong! Very informative and love that you base everything on science. I have one question, I make a milk bread that includes an egg in the recipe. How would that calculate into the hydration formula?
The water content of a whole egg is around 74%, so 34 g out of 50 g of a whole egg's weight is water, make sure you account for that amount of water in your dough calculations.
@@NovitaListyani Will do. Thank you for the information.
I just had to SUBSCRIBE! (Have you ever tried Pizza from Naples? It will change your life! I'm on a search to make super light Sour dough pizza. Thanks for the information. Keep up the great work!
Thanks. Neopolitan pizza is very good indeed, this pizza is made with such a pizza in mind :)
Thank you very much for your information. Is there any difference with Speltflour?
their videos are spectacular. I want to prepare Donuts chips. if employment tangzhong or yudane. that relationship of flour and water recommend apply for both the tangzhong?? and yudane??
Wow.. Very impressive detail and explanation. I have never seen this explanation anywhere.. Super kerennn..
Keren ada penonton dari Indonesia. Super terima kasih ya :)
@@NovitaListyani emang teteh novita tinggal di mana?
@@NovitaListyani ada penjelasan versi bahasa gak sih teh novita?
Nyalain saja subtitle bahasa Indonesia
I love your Videos. I learn so much. thank you for these.
Is there a formula for additional liquid for fresh ground four ground from hard red wheat. When following normal recipies, the dough obsorbs the liquid much greater than using fours like King Authors bread flour . The dough is very dry and I cannot figure out a formula to how much additional liquid.
There are research papers on red spring wheat, if you know the cultivar you have, you can find information on the Farinograph Water Absorption from these papers, and from there, you can do a few trials to get to your baking water absorption. The following parameters influence farinograph water absorption: protein, water-extractable arabinoxylan contents, particle size index and starch damage. I hope this information helps.
Must see
Your videos are great.
One question I have is does the flour in the yudane go towards the total flour when determining the other ingredients?
So if it's 2% salt
Does the 100% flour include the flour from the yudane?
Where can I get the graphics you used in the video? Specifically the time line steps for the baking process.
Love the video, I learned a lot!
Traditional pizzerias will make dough at hydration of 60 to 70. Not 55 to 59 as claimed in the video.
www.pizzanapoletana.org/en/ricetta_pizza_napoletana
Lately the hydration is in the range of 55-62%, we might have quoted our number from previous version, but it's still not that far off.
Merci pour ta vidéo , bonne année lunaire et je vous souhaite tout le bonheur du monde🤳😇🥳🙏🌝
Merci beaucoup 🙏 bonne année lunaire !
Hi, thanks for the videos! Would you recommend using rice flour for making the tangzhong/yudane instead of wheat flour? what do you think the effects of switching out the flours are?
Yes, you can use rice flour. Some rice flours usually have more starch, and also they are gluten free, so more water absorption and need strong wheat flour to go with the final dough.
👍👍👍👍👍
what is the different between using rice flour vs corn flour to enhance the softness from the bread using tanzhong or yudane sist?
whenever i watch ur video, it brings me back the time when i listen to a professor lecture... LOL
Would you please share your thoughts about using yudane for making tortilla bread & Which is desired amount of flour for using preparation of yudane?
We haven't done any in-depth on tortillas yet, so can't say for sure, perhaps in a future video!
I appreciate your prompt response and waiting for that tortilla's video.
Ultra soft and fluffy bread provides-when professionally prepared- a great organoléptic experience. Here’s the catch-22: Research has shown that the reason why our long time ancestors had better-well-aligned-significantly-less-crooked-teeth was because their diets was made up of hard chewable foods. Now, for you to choose.
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼❤️
Great video! Subscribed! Saya sudah baca research papernya dan hasilnya keliatan 'slightly' semua ya. Kalau di real life (uncontrolled environment), misal untuk roti manis, apakah akan ada perbedaan signifikan bagi yang makan? Lalu mungkin rata-rata orang akan makan roti itu (roti yang dijual) maksimal 48 jam setelah keluar oven, let's say 24 jam lah pada umumnya, itu laju stalenya cukup curam grafiknya, dan mungkin gak ada perbedaan signifikan kan ya? Mengingat kalau bakery, kita perlu hitung durasi kerja, man power, dsb.
Terima kasih atas komentarnya. Kalau bicara "real life" mungkin harus ditentukan dulu kita bicara di mana. Kalau kita ambil panelist untuk test makan roti dari masyarakat yang sudah dibiasakan dengan konsumsi gula berlebihan, kenaikan 9 mg/g sampai 23 mg/g jumlah maltose mungkin dianggap tidak ada apa-apa, namun itu kenaikan significant bagi perancang roti untuk masyarakat yang konsumsi gula sangat terukur. Kenaikan 23 mg/g maltose untuk Yudane 40 sama dengan penambahan maltose mendekati 50% kalau dipakai basis jumlah gula (sucrose) dari roti tanpa Yudane/Tangzhong (angka ini dapat dengan mudah dihitung dari informasi yang ada di paper tesebut, tepung 200g, gula 10 g), bahkan kalau perancangan lebih teliti ini bisa dibuat sampai mencapai angka 70%. Jadi itu sangat berarti. Dan menariknya, di hari berikut biasanya lebih manis. Namun, perlu diingat ini kenaikan maltose jadi tidak semanis sucrose, karena yang bikin gula sangat manis itu fructose. Untuk staling, roti yang dibikin dengan Yudane/Tangzhong, dari pengalaman pribadi, dimakan 3-4 hari kemudian masih enak, bahkan terasa lebih enak, apakah itu masih kurang? Kalau sudah bicara bakery, ya, harus jelas dulu, bakery jenis apa dan marketnya siapa? artisan atau industrial, skala industri mungkin lebih ke profit oriented, ya, pilihan jelas banyak, dari additive untuk improver, enzim sampai tepung khusus Yudane seperti yang ada di Jepang, jelas tidak relevan-lah apa yang kita bicarakan dengan apa yang dipakai untuk skala industrial, tetapi kalau untuk artisan atau home baking, saya kira itu cukup significant. Demikian penjelasan saya, semoga bermanfaat.
@@NovitaListyani Wow, lengkap sekali penjelasannya, terima kasih banyak mba Novita.
'Masyarakat yang sudah dibiasakan dengan konsumsi gula berlebihan' nice and truth quote! Haha.
Jadi tambah sadar kenapa ketika saya bikin roti manis (dengan isian) dengan kadar gula 16% dianggap masih ada yang kurang, tapi ketika dinaikkan gulanya jadi 20-22% banyak yang suka. Niat baik tidak selalu berjalan baik, market bisa menjadi penentu arah resep.
Terkait staling, saat ini, untuk menjaga agar tetap fresh 3-4 hari, saya masih menggunakan fat dan sugar masing-masing sekitar 20%. Saya beberapa kali coba pakai yudane tapi it doesn't work quite well at the end of the day, mungkin karena tekniknya kurang tepat (setelah liat youtube mba Novita terkait Yudane and how to keep the bowl hot). Sebelumnya saya hanya notice dengan evaporated water sehingga total beratnya berbeda, jadi sudah gak pakai 1:1, biasanya pakai 1:1,25 utk capai berat akhir total yudane sama seperti halnya berat akhir total yudane 1:1 secara hitungan (bukan mixing). Satu lagi, apakah Yudane bisa langsung masuk kulkas setelah tercampur merata (selagi masih hangat)? Atau tunggu hingga hangat kuku/suhu ruang baru masuk kulkas?
Mba Novita, kalau boleh request, tolong buat video tentang pengaruh gula dan juga garam terhadap adonan dan shelf life dari roti itu sendiri. Shelf life ini menjadi concern bagi home bakers seperti saya yang mau kirim rotinya ke beda kota yang butuh waktu perjalanan 1-2 hari. Terima kasih banyak sudah membaca.
Yudane itu fat mimic, dengan Yudane 20 roti fresh sekitar 3-4 hari itu sebenarnya cukup standar, asal ditutup kedap udara. Staling terjadi karena retrogradasi, adanya pergerakan air dari dalam roti ke permukaan menjadi salah satu penyebabnya, nah roti yudane mengurangi hal itu karena struktur selaput gluten-starch matrix yang lebih rapat menutup pori-pori roti, seperti dijelas di beberapa video kita.
Biasanya yudane didinginkan ke room temperature sebelum dimasukkan ke kulkas, sebenarnya tidak ada masalah langsung dimasukkan ke kulkas tetapi kondensasi bisa terjadi dan Yudane kita bisa menjadi terlalu basah, perlu diingat untuk dimasukkan ke kulkas bukan ke freezer ya, bedanya, di kulkas temperaturenya sekitar 5 derajat celcius, ini sempurna untuk retrogradasi (kalau roti yang kita masukkan kebalikan harus di freezer bukan dikulkas), itu yang membuat Yudane manis karena terjadi re-kristalisai amylopectin and kristalisasi amylose, dua jenis molekul gula yang ada di pati.
Untuk requestnya kita kebetulan lagi bikin video tentang itu, silahkan ditunggu.
Hi sister if we add more fat it's affect bread quality.
Can the yudane be overcooked? I tried combining cool water and flour, then put in the microwave for one minute. It came out as a solid block. Note this is using 3:2 water:flour ratio.
Most of the water must have evaporated. Using boiling water is easier.
Novita: You need to apply to SpaceX. You many save humanity with bread on Mars.
Lol, saving humanity is best done on earth 😀
I have a question: If I have a kind of flour which starts to get sticky above a 65% hydration, will Yudane 20 with a 65% hydration be less sticky than the Yudane 0 65% hydration one? And what about the Yudane 20 70% vs Yudane 0 65% in sticky comparison for this kind of flour? Thank you.
Hmm, for bread flour, dough hydrations up to 71% have been shown to be appropriate for optimal dough development, through Farinograph testing. That's the data we have. If you are talking about AP flour (presuming that's the case by your description), due to less protein, the water absorption might be lower. To answer your questions: Yes, the dough should be easier to handle with Yudane 20 than control for the same hydration of 65%, as for Yudane 20 70% vs Yudane 0 65, if you are talking about AP flour, it's most likely that you will face similar issues with stickiness, as 70% may be too much for AP flour even with Yudane 20. Having said that, there are other factors to consider. Tangzhong/Yudane doughs have less tolerance to over kneading/over mixing, which might make them appear to be sticky.
@@NovitaListyani yeah, I’m using an all purpose flour. Your answer is very helpful. Thanks for your reply.
Hello, may I ask if I can use milk to prepare the Tangzhong instead of water? I've been doing that with good result, but I'm not sure if that's actually OK or not. Would love to hear your thought
Of course you can do that, here is how to do that th-cam.com/video/qXhVxe1DDXE/w-d-xo.html and here is why th-cam.com/video/qXhVxe1DDXE/w-d-xo.html
@Novita Listyani ah.... is in that video. A awesome. Exactly what I was looking for.
Would you say the application of potatoes in dough is similar to yudane? Also curious to know the added effects of using the water that cooked said potatoes..
Fresh potato contains about 20% dry matter of which around 70% is starch, so, it may need a considerable amount of fresh potato to get the amount of starch ideally used for tangzhong10-30. Technically, for gelatinization to take place, the starch needs to be soaked in excess water, which as we have mentioned before is a ratio of 1:1, flour to water, it is the damaged and gelatinized starch that play central roles in tangzhong/yudane. So, water is needed for gelatinization, and the water content of the overall dough should always be kept at a reasonable level although the tangzhong/yudane method can accommodate additional water.
@@NovitaListyani thanks for the info and the quick response! Also, apologies if youve covered this in a vid before..
Might have to play around with adding both tangzhong and potato to my doughs... or do you think thats a little overkill?
both of them actually have similar effects on the dough, tangzhong/yudane is of course more effective, but as to the flavor and texture, that's really up to personal taste.
@@NovitaListyani nice, i thought that might be the case.. good to know your videos are giving me a better understanding of how to apply these principles
👋🤠🙏
What do you think about using yudane for croissants?
Hmmm, I doubt if a softer, moister croissant is what we want, not to mention the gelatinized starch may get in the way of the delicate process of preparing croissant.
@@NovitaListyani I was more thinking about how to make a croissant stay fresher for more days…
I suggest you try Tangzhong/Yudane 10 first and see if you get the desired effects.
@@NovitaListyani what ratio would you suggest I start with? 1:2?
2:3 or 1:1, croissant usually has a very low hydration, what's the hydration you use?
berapa % hidrasi yang diperlukan jika kita ingin membuat rich bread menggunakan tangzhong 20? mengingat banyak lemak yang ditambahkan.
Tergantung hidrasi awalnya, untuk optimal paling naikin sekitar 3%
Wah terimakasih banyak, jadi tidak harus sampai 71% ya?
Saya sudah mempraktikan rich bread tangzhong 20 dengan hidrasi hingga 71%, tetapi itu terlalu lembek. Sulit untuk ditangani..
Kabar ikan cupang nya gimana kak
Ikan sehat-sehat :) Tetapi lagi istirahat bikin video ikan sampai nanti kalau beli aquarium baru, soalny pada berbaret akuariumnya :)
@@NovitaListyani owalaa, ditunggu Vidio ikannya kak, masih stay di Bali kah?
Wow, that is the nerdiest baking video I have ever seen. Note that I have a PhD in Engineering, and I’m not saying that in a negative way 😂😂. Will go back and review the pizza video and will also take a whack at applying it to my sourdough where the main effect I am looking for is increasing shelf life. My take away was that roughly speaking, if you want to convert a recipe to T/Y 20 you should aim to increase hydration by 25% (e.g. pizza ratio went from nominal 60% to 75% or 75/60 = 1.25).
Well, your take away is a little off 😂, if you want to convert a recipe to T/Y 20, you don't need to change the hydration but if you want to make a homemade pizza like a pizzeria made pizza you can raise the hydration up to 71%. There's a difference there 😀 watch this th-cam.com/video/Wz0PiKOWY1g/w-d-xo.html
So rewatched the video. If I understood correctly, the T/Y20 was used so as to create a softer crumb so that the pizza crust, when cooked for longer at a lower temperature would mimic the outer hardness and inner softness of professional pizza cooked more quickly at a lower temperature. AND the higher hydration was chosen based on the graphs to make the T/Y 20 dough mimic the original dough from the perspective of kneadability. Is that correct?
Traditional pizzeria pizza has a hydration lower than 60%, is baked for 1-2 minutes at 300-400°C, a very high temperature. Home ovens usually can't go higher than 290°C, so we end up having to bake for longer to get that crispy crust but that makes the crumb super dry, not soft. Raising the hydration without Tangzhong/Yudane doesn't solve the problem, T/Y 20 does the job perfectly, in terms of rheology, the dough behaves like a control dough but, more than that, during baking, it retains most of the moisture, hence it gives us that soft texture with a crispier crust.
Please stop saying "Tangzhong or Yudane". We get it, they are the same, just pick one term and stick with it.
That side, I enjoy your videos.
Just another big BS. If we use 40% flour for yudane and mix 1:5 with water we are at 200% total hydration . Big bs
Hmm, you must be very new to this channel. You may want to watch:
th-cam.com/video/_mFYeiLzLpo/w-d-xo.html
also th-cam.com/video/DjQ7EtvzK_w/w-d-xo.html
Thanks!
Thanks!
Thanks!
Insane amount of work expertly explained thank you!!!
Thanks!
Thanks!
Thank you