yeah they slightly hang off the side of the bike in my opinion in looks cool, its on my upgrade list because im in California and im hoping the would help my but on fire.
@@glennmassengill3532 Jag makes an oil cooler with a fan on it that has been tested to bring down your oil temperature 40 degrees. I personally removed my Factory oil cooler and have never had an issue with overheating but then I don't sit in city traffic with it either, I'm in a rule area of Texas.
Dude I have an 04 Springer softail I bought it new it has an 88b I've ridden this bike just about 100,00 miles around this country that 88 is a hell of a good motor ! Not as powerful as the newer twin cams or M 8's but Trustworthy ....
I'm looking at my first Harley. Looking for a early road king or softtail with a 88. Find a decent used bike justvmakes sense to me as I can't afford a bike over 20g. Then down the road throw some money in the drive train
Just bought my first harley 2 weeks ago. An 08 electra glide with 49k miles on it. Didnt run to good when i bought it .did a full tune up and fuel filter. Also replaced the leaking stator. It has a big bore kit cams and ported heads. I already put on 1k miles on it. Im coming over from a r6. The ride is way better and my back doesn't hurt after a 2 hour ride... and the sound is amazing..... never going back
Yup nothing better than a harley, now to convince the 10 million other ricers who bash harley in the comments from there moms basement, my yamahaha had 3 major recalls, that's the reason i switched to hd 20 years ago, 2 hd's and no problems
Great history lesson on Twinkie’s. That’s what all is Evo riders called them. Never by the first year model of anything. I now own a 2014 CVO Ultra Limited and you couldn’t give me an M8 for it right now. The 110 is a solid great running motor. Harley finally got most all the bugs worked out of it and bonus that it also has the Rushmore Project updates. She’s a keeper !
I would hang onto that Twin Cam, they just that motor right and then they switched to the M8. The M8's not a bad motor but it's not something I would own right now either. Rushmore bikes are the way to right now, especially with that 110 like you have!
Just bought an 2005 softail 5600 miles I’ll keep your idea in mind really appreciate your outlook on facts. Your not negative but see problem and bring solutions to table. Thank you sir
You're very welcome, the 88 isn't a bad engine at all it just had a design flaw. Their was supposedly a bad run of cam chains that were probably better suited for a chain saw. They chewed up tensioners on the early bikes, but in the end it was the spring tensioner just put too much tension on the shoes. I am really surprised you found a 2005 with only 5600!
Great story! As an engineer you did a great job explaining how engineering is much more than going after the best solution in a vacuum and how there is nearly always unexpected consequences to every change. Great job! Great channel! 👍
Love my 2000 Ultra Classic.. 44,000 miles and just now changed out my cam system for the Feuling 525 hydraulic tensioner. Also had to change out that rubber motor mount after realizing that my oil filter was banging on my voltage regulator and oil cooler... wasn't pretty! But still a great ride and motor is solid.
That's awesome, you put one of the best upgrades out there in it too. The hydraulic tensioner system is the way to for those bikes, don't have to worry about shaft run out issues.
@@GixxerFoo yes sir I am the newest subscriber of your show..Great knowledge backed by solid info and great ideas. Not much of a mechanic myself but I feel like I know more when I talk to my wrench guy. Thanks 👍
I had over 50 thousands miles on the original camchain tensioners, my bike is a 05 Roadking classic. I knew I was pressing my luck with the spring tensioners so, I did a S&S geardrive 510B cam upgrade. No more tensioners period! As even the hydraulic tensioners are prone to failure.
They probably never found the cam chain issue in development as they were the ones making the parts to R&D. Once they went into production and another company started making the chains that had rough edges they started having issues. Some bikes make it 100,000+ miles without ever needing cam chain tensioners because they had nice smooth chains.
The reason for the overlook of cam chain tensioner is they were NOT putting any emphasis on dealing with that issue. They wanted to develope a " throw away" harley hence the twin cam. Its my fave and your knowledge is greatly appreciated.
I agree with your comment towards the end, I do not understand how the cam chain tensioner design flaw made it out of the factory. HD sold bikes to customers knowing there was a big design miss, no warning, not even a few words to watch out for cam chain tensioners. I don't know how many customers HD lost because of this issue, but I know I am one.
Hey love you videos, heaps of useful info. My question is....I'm about to purchase a 2001 Fatboy TC 88 its cammed and has done under 5k kms. Would it be a good idea to upgrade the tensioner right away or put money into a 98 big bore kit? TIA
Thank for the sub and support! I never could find any straight forward answers on Harley. It was either the invincible motorcycle or a pos depending who you talked to.
Well I just got a '06 tc h.d. and I use to jokingly call them 'twin catastrophe' bikes because I had been reading alot of biker rags and alot of the probs. with the new engine. I'll check my chain tensioners as soon as warmer weather comes here(N.Y.), looks pretty easy to r.& r. if needed. Bike only has 12k on and runs really smooth and quiet(totally stock incl. exhaust,which will be my 1st. change and a new a.f.
NY changed the exhaust laws last year. I'm on Long Island. Two places that are car shops that used to inspect my bike, refused to inspect with V&H Big Shots on my Deuce. A bike shop is probably the only choice I have to get an inspection sticker. Or change my exhaust back to stock, and that is not going to happen.
@@GixxerFoo btw… I would love to see a video on the “thundermax” tuner. I’m thinking about Andrews dual cams with exhaust and breather as well as the tuner mentioned 2014 street glide 103
I bought a new 2000 superglide and didn't have any issues with the tensioners in the 21000 miles I owned it. The next owner is a friend and had them changed out at 30000 miles and they were in good shape. I believe there were a hydraulic upgrade available later. Chain links are stamped and if the manufacturing dies weren't kept sharp the resulting rough edge would definitely do a number on the tensioner shoes(I'm a tool and die maker). Also how you ride has to contribute. I would think hard decels would work those tensioners greatly. Overall a great bike...slap a Mikuni42, k&n filter and pipes on and you have a very responsive bike.
I talked to quite a bit of people at the shops over the years, dug up some old articles, old sales materials and put it all together. It's interesting if you find someone who was going to dealer meetings back in those day and pick their brain.
So im back on two .legs and weels. Lol lots of little problems with the bike but im back up a little more wary but in the wind still worth it. Broken glass slightly bent bars n levers n all still lovein the ride.
@@GixxerFoo my have to get some surgery for knee yet. But im up n runnen lol. Still got bunch minor fixes on bike but that was expected.( baught used) electricians nightmare.
I have the same problem with my 05 Dyna Wide Glide shifting. No matter how I adjust the clutch wether by cable for behind the derby cover on primary I sometimes had a hard time going from first to second and when I park it have a hard time getting N to let off the clutch but that’s a pain in the ass as sometimes it’s fine.
What fluid are you running in your primary and transmission? An easy thing to try is some Redline or Amsoil primary and transmission fluid. Sometimes it works for that issue, I remember a guy years ago that was the man at indy service shop trying that out first. If that didn't work he would go in and replace/adjust the return springs.
@@GixxerFoo The balancer is what kept me on the Dyna's Just never liked the idea of more spinning shafts. I understand that Darkhorse can balance the crank and get rid of those contraptions. Maybe if i ever go to a M8. Not likely, I'm 67 and really like my LowRider
Personally I think the SACS system as used on Suzukis made for a handsome engine. I loved the look of the fine fins on the head and barrels. HD could have used this system (first used on a Mustang aeroplane in WW2). SACS uses a large radiator and the 1200s carry a gallon of oil which, along with the spray jets, keeps things cool. A Hybrid SACS HD, that could look good, even with a large radiator, and be efficient. I would have liked for you to have mentioned the Timken Primary bearings on early TCs
One of the early things I did to my 2000 88B Fatboy was to add a Harley oil cooler. It sits between the front downtubes, and is barely noticeable. Marketing Dept. sucks! BTW, 52,000 miles, and the chain tensioners are still good.
That's awesome! The oil cooler and some good oil with proper oil changes really extends the life of those tensioners. Some bike cratered before 15K and others like yours just keep on rolling.
Okay, here is Earl again,LOL. I have been making comments about the evo lately and am really enjoying the comments of others. So, now about the tc 88 counter balanced B and A version of the twin cam. I also own a harley with the twin cam B version. It is a 2002 softail custom with 38K miles on it and is very reliable. I do believe the cam chains are an improvement for the same reason motor compnaies in cars went with timing chains before the mid 1950s. Less vibration and quieter operation. Now about these cam pensioners. These plastic shoe tensioners were too make the engine even quieter for EPA as mentioned in the video. But here is something I have been telling people in harley forums for years now and it only causes argument . Brace yourselves . You can remove the spring tensioners altogether and even remove the hydraulic plastic tensioners in the 07 and up by plugging the inside of the two bolt shoe holder and on the spring type by simply taking it off and throwing it away They have nothing at all to do with holding the chain on the gears at all. The left side of the chain same as in the chain cams in older cars has some slack and is called the non tension side and the tension side is tight because of the direction of the shaft. When these ears and that chain were engineered the engineers buit them to run without any tension item applied, but the tensioners were added by marketers to further quiet the engine. I took a front failed tensioner off of my sons 2001 dyna 3 years ago and he has ran it for around 25k miles since. His front tensioner the plastic shoe had broken off and the metal part flipped downward. I took it off and noticed the chain on the bottom gear could not be pulled down even enough to expose the inner U under the teeth, so with that tensioner off and ran it for a few seconds and it worked fine Those plastic tensioners were only added to get rid of sonic hum. Plus these chains cannot wobble at all because the back pressure from when the cams circles engage the cam lobe will not allow a wobble to ever occur. .
@@GixxerFoo Exactly. Its that lower smaller gear that lets me know on these twin cam engines. my sons dyna has ran for 25K miles without these spring tensioners. If my 02 softail has any issue off they come and if the chain or gears are worn i will simply replace them. The original engineers design and measure never intended for tensioners to be used on those. If i get repsonses on this on the net, i have learned i have to ignore because people that dont have measuring engineering and machining knowledge will only believe tech shop scammers
It makes perfect sense, the side opposite the tensioner would have play in it. It's wrapped around a sprocket so it's taking up a little slack on the side it's on. I'll be damned, l never put a second thought to that till you said that.
@@GixxerFoo I am absolute witness to this. That non tension side has slack for the same reason the chevrolet 1957 283 engine had slack, it is so oil can enter the inner gear teeth as it rotates to the tension side, so therefore the slack must be there. if both sides were tight without slack then the inner u area of any gear would never get oil
They absolutely would have discovered the cam chain tensioner failure. It’s not even a big deal as long as you make it a regular inspection/maintenance item. They just didn’t want to tell their customers that at 30,000mi, much greater for the later hydraulic design, they would need a possible $1000 service.
From the 96 up they had the issues worked out on those, the 103 is a good solid motor. The hydraulic tensioners are a lot better, I would check them at about 50k just to be safe but other than that the 103 is good to go.
It's possible, but that's just like short tripping a car. If you get the bike out and ride it, get it up to temperature and run some miles it won't be an issue. Also keeping up on your maintenance will prevent anything like that from happening. Slow warm ups aren't an issue if give the bike a few minutes to build some heat and circulate the oil.
They could of integrated the oil cooler, using the big fins cooled the motor but transferred the heat to the rider. I don't think anyone would of complained about a factory oil cooler.
They realized that the pushrod geometry was the reason for lifter failure on the rear exhaust ! Over revving the engines ! Thus the twin can engine ! 😎
@@GixxerFoo I have a very well-kept Road Glide. Most people think it's a 2010-2011 because I have the S&S headers on it which run underneath the frame of the bike. I enjoy the open road. I live in Texas and road to the Upper Peninsula of Michigan through the Smoky Mountains last year. (5000 miles with no issues) And I'm planning another trip to the Smoky Mountains next month
@@GixxerFoo if I stay healthy enough I plan on a trip to the Ozarks next spring. It'd be fun to stop in for a chitchat. Getting old is not for the weak at heart. LoL
Hi there. Big Fan across The Pond. Rumour has it that the Italian Motorcycle Company called 'Cagiva' had a hand in that Twin Cam Design? Is that right?
I haven't heard anything about that for the American market. I'll do some digging and see if maybe they consulted with Cagiva for other markets, possibly for emissions reasons.
Hi Bro. Since contacting you i done a bit of digging myself & i can't find anything concrete however according to Wikipedia (Don't laugh) H-D bought out Cagiva's Parent Company in 2008 (MV Augustu) so they would have been too late to have a hand in the making of the Twin Cam but maybe in the M8? Now i'm wondering if it is B.S? I will be interested if you find something. Take care Buddy
Harley did own MV for a while, 🤷♂️ why they bought l am not sure. It didn't seem like we saw any of their high tech make into the Harley. Well engine at least. I believe they sold it off already though.
So is the only way to tell if you have an 88B motor is if you have a 2000 and up Harley Softail? Are there any marks to look for to see if the previous owner changed the engine?
that was really good on the history wow. i have subscribed. cool deal. look forward to more content. one comment though - you the twin cam was more efficient than the single cam. so why did they go back to single cam. great job on the history.
Thank you, l appreciate it! Likely with the 4 valve heads they could go back to a single cam design. Back then they were trying to meet future emissions standards with 2 valve heads.
I had a 2010 road glide custom with a 96 in.³ motor with no oil cooler so I ordered one. black and when it came out of the box I immediately took the oil cooler cover and send it to the paint shop to paint it to match my scarlet red paint problem solved ,looked great and did what it was supposed to do that was in 2010 funny how today there’s a myriad of oil coolers, cover upgrades and color matched cowlingsWhen my wife got her Laguna orange 2017 road glide S that had a larger factory installed oil cooler and big black cover I immediately removed and sent it out as well that oil cooler cover along with a painted inner faring really sets that bike off great little details to take something ugly and really make it a part of the bike
Yeah, they have to take every noise the bike makes into account. They had a lot of work on m8 into making the motor quiet so they could have a bit louder exhaust. Especially with the Screamin Eagle exhaust and still be legal.
The dyna that year had the hydraulic tensioners, softail and touring still had the spring tensioner. Most of the issues were on the earlier models. I'd just check it every now and again.
I thought the oil return problem was an acoustic phenomenon where pulses from the crankcase created a standing wave that blocked oil from returning to the case?
@@GixxerFoo There is also the problem of one scavenge pump and two inlets for it - once either the cam chest or crankcase was cleared of oil the pump sucked air until both had sufficient amounts of oil to get suction from both cavities. At that situation - sucking air - the scavenge pressurises the oil tank which then vents back to the cases..... all the oil in the crank compartment then churned up so much so as to leave the top end of the engine with way to much oil in it, resulting in oil going through the rocker box breathers into the air filter, combustion chamber and slowly emptying the oil tank..... Incidentally, I suggest you investigate the Scavenger total oil change system so as to remove the oil left in the engine once the bike has stopped. After doing the oil change as directed with a Scavenger, my twin cam had well over a litre of old oil left in the engine.... my Sporty had just under a litre of old oil that contaminates the new oil.... Check it out on TH-cam here.... Rogue Choppers Scavenger.
Damn! Yeah that's a great idea to check into! I always start draining the oild immediately after shutting the bike off to try and get as much out of the tank as possible. But without the system you suggested there's no way to get it all.
Bigger bore and shallower chamber for more complete burn for epa - Then it goes too production we’re they throw out the good timken bearing and change cam needle bearings to half as many and plastic cage -
I was not going to go with a TC after '95 1340. Figured HD must have thought TC was the way to go. I have an FXDL made in 11/98. At 25k mls it's had the original chain tensioners replaced. The replacement spring tensioners have 9k on them with almost no visible wear. That suggests it was the shoe material that was the problem. Sounds like a sewing machine mechanically. Probably won't go back to Evo, the TC has noticeably more torque.
That's not a bad idea at all, I really think Harley would of kept the Twin Cam platform if it hadn't been for emissions standards. The Twin Cam wasn't going to meet the super strict requirements of Euro5.
I do not. AND whatever anyone thinks about what it looks like needs to ride a new one. I never thought I’d ever buy a NEW Harley. But the now oil cooled motors are fantastic from a riders perspective.
My feeling on this is that if I per say had to be subjected to slow stop and go compacted traffic, I would want to install a fan. A small fan on the rear back side of the rear cylinder and one in front on top of the regulator between the frame tubes. Then turn a toggle switch on to turn them on until I got moving. Water cooled? NO, because just lie a radiator or leak in a hot car engine upon this happening will ruin one of your body parts for LIFE. Plus motorcycle are getting so many things added that you cant see the damn motorcycle any longer As for oil coolers i feel like this, its good but it also delays the time it takes for that engine to get upper oil and you would need to increase your oil pressure and if you dont increase your oil pressure you will ruin your engine
Fans wouldn't be a bad idea idea, they had parade mode on the 96's for the rear cylinder. I've talked to some guys that had the rear cylinder on older carbed bikes overheat and seize. I know it's good for the motor but dang l couldn't run the Luv Jugs. They work damn good but l just can't get past the look 😬.
@@GixxerFoo Yea, it would look funky, but my idea would be to use those small personal desktop fans and paint them black so they wouldnt show up so much, but i know i could do this i could edge it on top of the inner primary cover to blow upward on the rear cylinder
A guy told me 2 days ago just how much better the evo engine was and I'm like dude if the evo was better then Harley Davidson would be still putting the evo in all the bikes today but thats not the case now is it.
The Evo was a very reliable engine and super simple to work on, that's a lot of the reason why it was so loved. From a business standpoint it may of been too reliable and left parts and service with nothing to do.
The twin cam is a great compromise of evo sound and m8 performance,but the heat of the engine is a problem in summer so oil cooler would solve that.the m8 engine is great but it loses the evo and twin cam sound we all enjoy.new harleys are more like victorys.next harley will have overhead cam big v twins lol
Wheels Through Time is one amazing collection, they have some very rare items in there. Don't they have that one off bike found in a wall? I believe it's called a Traub?
@@GixxerFoo You're absolutely correct. They started it when I was there. The story behind the "One Off" bike is amazing. I could spend days in that Museum.
Interesting ! I've switched shift drums to one from Evo 5 speed & never noticed a problem other than the clunk is gone ! Also had the chance to use A motor flywheels in a B motor case & leave the balance shafts out & it works ! In 06 dynas & then 07 & up bikes the 6 speed is prone to main bearing failure & compensator failure which takes out the starter & breaks the splines off the clutch hub . Just some further information ! Thanks !
Dang you've done some interesting internal work. So what made you pull the balancers out of B motor? That's the cool thing about Harleys is that everything is so interchangeable.
@@GixxerFoo I was using a big cam high compression & ported heads & I could see no point in spinning the balance shafts ! I have a engine machine shop been at it for a long time !
The tensioner issue is in reality overblown by internet chat groups. Ive never met anyone that had the issue personally. Never even heard of anybody with it aside from the internet. To me if u got the bikes that could be affected it's just a part of maintaning ur bike. The mechanics should be inspecting the area anyways right. If the internet was as big during the evo days people would have bought up the issues it had as much as people bring up the twin cans problems. I have an evo and love it. But I don't believe it's perfect. Rear cylinder gasket. My motors weakness. But I ain't whining about it. Just replace as necessary.
It was in the late 70's, they knew they were gonna have to do something and make it more reliable. That unleaded fuel in Shovel Heads caused all kinds of problems, Harleys not a incapable company. They would of dominated road racing with the VR1000, they had that in 1988. But the big wigs wouldn't let them race it till they had a management change in the mid 90's. By then it was way out of date and behind in technology.
Check parts diagram of an M8. In my opinion they took a step back to Evo basics for this engine. Single cam with a chain between crank and cam instead of gears, and cam is centered vs pre pre-TC engine. 99 to 06 engines were probably the worst engines in motorcycles and those years sold in big numbers. Cam chain tensionners, shifting flywheels, failing tapppets, failing inner cam bearings etc. And Harley is wondering why so many consumers are not buying another HD. They (MOCO) might be doing much better if the Twin Cam never existed.
That's exactly what l thought myself when that M8 came out is they went back to a modernized Evo style design. The 88 years were pretty rough, the twin cam improved but it was never perfect.
@@GixxerFoo The Evo had two issues (missed one in comment). The engine cases that cracked, but of all the people I know that rode their EVOs hard one person that this happened to. Secondly, if INA inner cam bearing was not replaced ASAP it could also do damage.
@@whatsstefon Porsche was also hired to help Harley develop the Evolution engines and the Twin Cam engine, primarily with emissions control matters. Inside all Harley engines you will find German pistons from Mahle and in the V-Rod and Big Twins you will find gears and shafts sourced from Getrag. Early V-Rod engines had even more international content, with French head castings, German powder forged conrods and a forged steel crank from Hatz, a German manufacturer of small diesel engines. Even the gaskets have "Germany" cast into them! As an old "propeller head" (BMW bike enthusiast) this gives me a lot of confidence in this engine. I am guessing, until I know differently, the Revolution-X engine is every bit a quality piece as the V-Rod mill is.
I traded my 2010 Roadglide custom for a 2020 RoadGlide s I respectfully disagree. So far this bike does it all for this 63 year old rider.Fit ,finish quiet motor even after a stage 2 torque cam, suspension for now is fine Seat and handle bar design comfortable.The twin cam when it first appeared had its faults and some remained.Compensators,crank shaft runout, both cam and chain tensioner oil pumps.I traded my bike with 42 k on the OD and addressed these issues as needed . Pardon me if I have repeated this but a guy wrote not long ago.” You have to maintain a motorcycle like you would an airplane .” How true performance is great but professionally installed parts replaced in a timely fashion is the difference between riding your bike and waiting for a tow.
Twin Cam already geting and Evo reputation lol i have a 2013 103. Ironicly the reasons i bought it wasnt just because of it being a problems ironed out bike, its a Streetglide and i liked the no computer screen and no abs. The motors been great so far and im only at 25k so i'll be riding it for awhile.
AGAIN , If you use AMSOIL 20/50 motorcycle oil you won't need an oil cooler and all the crap that goes with it . Besides being ugly as hell its also expensive as hell , plus the leakage problem that always seem to crop up with all the vibration . The 88 twin cam is and has been one of Harleys best engines EVER ! There have been several reports of TC 88's with over 200,000 miles & still going strong with nothing more than standard regular maintenance !
you dont need 8 valves on a Harley? you dont need 2 cams on a harley, leave it alone go back to a bigger evo and be done wiith it my friend has 100,000 miles on his first bike 84 evo.
I said for years they should've used the Sportster engine design but in a big inch engines. Same design in a 103 inch, torque would come with displacement and they would have the reliability. M8 really harkens back to the Evo in a lot of ways, most noticable is the single cam.
Epa is killing motorcycles. Epa standards killed the Kawasaki klr 650 and now their choking Harley Davidson. Soon they'll have to go all over head cam and liquid cooled motors. If that happens then Harley Davidson will be like the rest.
I keep waiting and hoping Kawasaki comes back with a new KLR 650, that's a indestructible bike. Harley could keep the engine design and look, just make it water cooled. Hell Kawasaki did it for years, the 15, 16 and 1700 Vulcan looks air cooled but it's water cooled. They got real close to the Harley sound with overhead cams, just backed it off after Honda made a Shadow pissed Harley off cause it sounded just like a Harley 😆😂.
They didn't "discover" the cam tensioner issue because they engineered it into the original design on purpose. People are sheep and no one more so than people who buy a new Harley Davisdson every other year or so.
They blamed it on a bad run of cam chains, which that was true. There was a bad run for a while that was like a chainsaw chain. For whatever reason the intent was 30k miles before replacement, it was an epic failure on Harley part. But many did get them replaced quietly since it was never officially acknowledged or recalled.
@gixxweFoo What’s your source of information? I very much enjoy the content and style of presenting. I do wonder where you get the information however. Not in a bad way but more in a way that no one should believe what someone says just because they said it and therefore it must be true. Looking to verify the story. Thanks! And I liked the vids as well as subscribe.
Thank you for the sub! I've picked up a lot of it over the years just talking to others in the business. Sales, Service, Management, Parts, they've all heard and seen things, been to different dealer meetings and talked to all kinds of people. Years ago you had Harley reps that were there when these things were going on and now they are mostly retired, you never know who you'll run into at bike nights. I get information from many different sources, but time spent working at various dealers has been my best source.
Do think an oil cooler from the factory would of ruined the look of the factory bike?
No, unless I’m looking I don’t see them... oil coolers are so small vs a big radiator on water cooled bikes
That's what l thought, l've seen all kinds of aftermarket oil coolers that look really slick. But is was the 90's.
yeah they slightly hang off the side of the bike in my opinion in looks cool, its on my upgrade list because im in California and im hoping the would help my but on fire.
@@glennmassengill3532 Jag makes an oil cooler with a fan on it that has been tested to bring down your oil temperature 40 degrees. I personally removed my Factory oil cooler and have never had an issue with overheating but then I don't sit in city traffic with it either, I'm in a rule area of Texas.
I love those Jag fan assisted coolers, especially where you're at. It's hot out there, I'm in Oklahoma so l can some what relate to the heat.
Dude I have an 04 Springer softail I bought it new it has an 88b I've ridden this bike just about 100,00 miles around this country that 88 is a hell of a good motor ! Not as powerful as the newer twin cams or M 8's but Trustworthy ....
I'm looking at my first Harley. Looking for a early road king or softtail with a 88. Find a decent used bike justvmakes sense to me as I can't afford a bike over 20g. Then down the road throw some money in the drive train
Cant beat that generation just change the Cam Chain Tensioner no later that 30,000 miles @@derekv275
Just bought my first harley 2 weeks ago. An 08 electra glide with 49k miles on it. Didnt run to good when i bought it .did a full tune up and fuel filter. Also replaced the leaking stator. It has a big bore kit cams and ported heads. I already put on 1k miles on it. Im coming over from a r6. The ride is way better and my back doesn't hurt after a 2 hour ride... and the sound is amazing..... never going back
Yup nothing better than a harley, now to convince the 10 million other ricers who bash harley in the comments from there moms basement, my yamahaha had 3 major recalls, that's the reason i switched to hd 20 years ago, 2 hd's and no problems
Great history lesson on Twinkie’s. That’s what all is Evo riders called them. Never by the first year model of anything. I now own a 2014 CVO Ultra Limited and you couldn’t give me an M8 for it right now. The 110 is a solid great running motor. Harley finally got most all the bugs worked out of it and bonus that it also has the Rushmore Project updates. She’s a keeper !
I would hang onto that Twin Cam, they just that motor right and then they switched to the M8. The M8's not a bad motor but it's not something I would own right now either. Rushmore bikes are the way to right now, especially with that 110 like you have!
Just bought an 2005 softail 5600 miles I’ll keep your idea in mind really appreciate your outlook on facts. Your not negative but see problem and bring solutions to table. Thank you sir
You're very welcome, the 88 isn't a bad engine at all it just had a design flaw. Their was supposedly a bad run of cam chains that were probably better suited for a chain saw. They chewed up tensioners on the early bikes, but in the end it was the spring tensioner just put too much tension on the shoes. I am really surprised you found a 2005 with only 5600!
I always appreciate finding your videos when I need to learn more about my twin cam.
Great story! As an engineer you did a great job explaining how engineering is much more than going after the best solution in a vacuum and how there is nearly always unexpected consequences to every change. Great job! Great channel! 👍
Thank you very much! Yeah it's always a compromise between departments to find a the best solution to satisfy both.
I like that you called them “Oil Squirters”. That’s a great way to talk about parts. Really appreciate your work, bud.
Thank you! Lol that's what they do is squirt oil on the bottom of the pistons to cool them.
Do you call them "Piston temperature controllers" ?
Love my 2000 Ultra Classic..
44,000 miles and just now changed out my cam system for the Feuling 525 hydraulic tensioner. Also had to change out that rubber motor mount after realizing that my oil filter was banging on my voltage regulator and oil cooler... wasn't pretty! But still a great ride and motor is solid.
That's awesome, you put one of the best upgrades out there in it too. The hydraulic tensioner system is the way to for those bikes, don't have to worry about shaft run out issues.
@@GixxerFoo yes sir I am the newest subscriber of your show..Great knowledge backed by solid info and great ideas. Not much of a mechanic myself but I feel like I know more when I talk to my wrench guy. Thanks 👍
That's what it's all about is just knowing what's going on and having knowledge of what you're being told about your bike.
I had over 50 thousands miles on the original camchain tensioners, my bike is a 05 Roadking classic. I knew I was pressing my luck with the spring tensioners so, I did a S&S geardrive 510B cam upgrade. No more tensioners period! As even the hydraulic tensioners are prone to failure.
They probably never found the cam chain issue in development as they were the ones making the parts to R&D. Once they went into production and another company started making the chains that had rough edges they started having issues. Some bikes make it 100,000+ miles without ever needing cam chain tensioners because they had nice smooth chains.
Those cam chains were better suited for a chain saw than a timing chain!
The reason for the overlook of cam chain tensioner is they were NOT putting any emphasis on dealing with that issue. They wanted to develope a " throw away" harley hence the twin cam. Its my fave and your knowledge is greatly appreciated.
Thank you, I appreciate your support of the channel! That's basically what happened, they lowered costs of production and engineered a life span.
@@GixxerFoo ive gotten a couple tips on what i need to do w/mine for performance-greatly appreciated.
You're welcome, anytime!
I agree with your comment towards the end, I do not understand how the cam chain tensioner design flaw made it out of the factory. HD sold bikes to customers knowing there was a big design miss, no warning, not even a few words to watch out for cam chain tensioners. I don't know how many customers HD lost because of this issue, but I know I am one.
There was never any official mention of it, not even a service interval was implemented. It was a really sad deal when it came to that.
Hey love you videos, heaps of useful info. My question is....I'm about to purchase a 2001 Fatboy TC 88 its cammed and has done under 5k kms. Would it be a good idea to upgrade the tensioner right away or put money into a 98 big bore kit? TIA
Wow great research and info.
Thank you!
Subbed, interesting channel. I like how you make it easier to understand HD.
Thank for the sub and support! I never could find any straight forward answers on Harley. It was either the invincible motorcycle or a pos depending who you talked to.
@@GixxerFoo Recently bought an fxdl, appreciate your channel.
Thank you! Low Rider is one of my favorite models, what year did year did you get?
Well I just got a '06 tc h.d. and I use to jokingly call them 'twin catastrophe' bikes because I had been reading alot of biker rags and alot of the probs. with the new engine. I'll check my chain tensioners as soon as warmer weather comes here(N.Y.), looks pretty easy to r.& r. if needed. Bike only has 12k on and runs really smooth and quiet(totally stock incl. exhaust,which will be my 1st. change and a new a.f.
NY changed the exhaust laws last year. I'm on Long Island. Two places that are car shops that used to inspect my bike, refused to inspect with V&H Big Shots on my Deuce. A bike shop is probably the only choice I have to get an inspection sticker. Or change my exhaust back to stock, and that is not going to happen.
Excellent commentary
Thank you kindly!
@@GixxerFoo btw… I would love to see a video on the “thundermax” tuner. I’m thinking about Andrews dual cams with exhaust and breather as well as the tuner mentioned
2014 street glide 103
Great Harley video on that Twin Cam!! 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Thanks! 👍 I appreciate your support!
I bought a new 2000 superglide and didn't have any issues with the tensioners in the 21000 miles I owned it. The next owner is a friend and had them changed out at 30000 miles and they were in good shape. I believe there were a hydraulic upgrade available later. Chain links are stamped and if the manufacturing dies weren't kept sharp the resulting rough edge would definitely do a number on the tensioner shoes(I'm a tool and die maker). Also how you ride has to contribute. I would think hard decels would work those tensioners greatly.
Overall a great bike...slap a Mikuni42, k&n filter and pipes on and you have a very responsive bike.
That's awesome, yeah some bikes failed before 15k and others went about 30k or more.
Good job dude! Enjoyed the TC history lesson. When did you dig up all the information from?
I talked to quite a bit of people at the shops over the years, dug up some old articles, old sales materials and put it all together. It's interesting if you find someone who was going to dealer meetings back in those day and pick their brain.
So im back on two .legs and weels. Lol lots of little problems with the bike but im back up a little more wary but in the wind still worth it. Broken glass slightly bent bars n levers n all still lovein the ride.
That's some great news to hear you back! I hope you get healed up and your bike all straightened out soon!
@@GixxerFoo my have to get some surgery for knee yet. But im up n runnen lol. Still got bunch minor fixes on bike but that was expected.( baught used) electricians nightmare.
Damn knee surgery is rough, l sure hope you don't end up needing it. Still though even used a downed bike hurts.
I have the same problem with my 05 Dyna Wide Glide shifting. No matter how I adjust the clutch wether by cable for behind the derby cover on primary I sometimes had a hard time going from first to second and when I park it have a hard time getting N to let off the clutch but that’s a pain in the ass as sometimes it’s fine.
What fluid are you running in your primary and transmission? An easy thing to try is some Redline or Amsoil primary and transmission fluid. Sometimes it works for that issue, I remember a guy years ago that was the man at indy service shop trying that out first. If that didn't work he would go in and replace/adjust the return springs.
I own a 2000 heritage original twin cam b engine and just did full rebuild with darkhorse crank now its indestructible
👍 damn that's nice! You've got the timkens and and the bullet proof crank, it doesn't get any better!
@@GixxerFoo The balancer is what kept me on the Dyna's Just never liked the idea of more spinning shafts. I understand that Darkhorse can balance the crank and get rid of those contraptions. Maybe if i ever go to a M8. Not likely, I'm 67 and really like my LowRider
Personally I think the SACS system as used on Suzukis made for a handsome engine. I loved the look of the fine fins on the head and barrels. HD could have used this system (first used on a Mustang aeroplane in WW2). SACS uses a large radiator and the 1200s carry a gallon of oil which, along with the spray jets, keeps things cool. A Hybrid SACS HD, that could look good, even with a large radiator, and be efficient. I would have liked for you to have mentioned the Timken Primary bearings on early TCs
Excellent...i always learn something new with you...thank you
God blesd
I appreciate it! Thank you!
Took my TC dyna to Deals Gap.
Rode it kinda hard and the back cylinder head bolts turned a little bluish from the heat.
Oh dang 😮, wow l'd say you rode it pretty hard. Damn it got hot running through there.
Love this guy, subbed
Thank you and welcome the channel!
One of the early things I did to my 2000 88B Fatboy was to add a Harley oil cooler. It sits between the front downtubes, and is barely noticeable. Marketing Dept. sucks! BTW, 52,000 miles, and the chain tensioners are still good.
That's awesome! The oil cooler and some good oil with proper oil changes really extends the life of those tensioners. Some bike cratered before 15K and others like yours just keep on rolling.
Nice info mate! Earned a sub! Thanks for sharing
Thank you, l appreciate the support!
Okay, here is Earl again,LOL. I have been making comments about the evo lately and am really enjoying the comments of others. So, now about the tc 88 counter balanced B and A version of the twin cam. I also own a harley with the twin cam B version. It is a 2002 softail custom with 38K miles on it and is very reliable. I do believe the cam chains are an improvement for the same reason motor compnaies in cars went with timing chains before the mid 1950s. Less vibration and quieter operation. Now about these cam pensioners. These plastic shoe tensioners were too make the engine even quieter for EPA as mentioned in the video. But here is something I have been telling people in harley forums for years now and it only causes argument . Brace yourselves . You can remove the spring tensioners altogether and even remove the hydraulic plastic tensioners in the 07 and up by plugging the inside of the two bolt shoe holder and on the spring type by simply taking it off and throwing it away They have nothing at all to do with holding the chain on the gears at all. The left side of the chain same as in the chain cams in older cars has some slack and is called the non tension side and the tension side is tight because of the direction of the shaft. When these ears and that chain were engineered the engineers buit them to run without any tension item applied, but the tensioners were added by marketers to further quiet the engine. I took a front failed tensioner off of my sons 2001 dyna 3 years ago and he has ran it for around 25k miles since. His front tensioner the plastic shoe had broken off and the metal part flipped downward. I took it off and noticed the chain on the bottom gear could not be pulled down even enough to expose the inner U under the teeth, so with that tensioner off and ran it for a few seconds and it worked fine Those plastic tensioners were only added to get rid of sonic hum. Plus these chains cannot wobble at all because the back pressure from when the cams circles engage the cam lobe will not allow a wobble to ever occur. .
🤔 that makes a lot of sense actually, hell Chevy V8 timing chains run for hundreds of thousands of miles without a tensioner and have no issues.
@@GixxerFoo Exactly. Its that lower smaller gear that lets me know on these twin cam engines. my sons dyna has ran for 25K miles without these spring tensioners. If my 02 softail has any issue off they come and if the chain or gears are worn i will simply replace them. The original engineers design and measure never intended for tensioners to be used on those. If i get repsonses on this on the net, i have learned i have to ignore because people that dont have measuring engineering and machining knowledge will only believe tech shop scammers
It makes perfect sense, the side opposite the tensioner would have play in it. It's wrapped around a sprocket so it's taking up a little slack on the side it's on. I'll be damned, l never put a second thought to that till you said that.
@@GixxerFoo I am absolute witness to this. That non tension side has slack for the same reason the chevrolet 1957 283 engine had slack, it is so oil can enter the inner gear teeth as it rotates to the tension side, so therefore the slack must be there. if both sides were tight without slack then the inner u area of any gear would never get oil
Could you get more information about this . it's really interesting!
What about the inner cam shoe is it necessary?
Enjoyed this video!
Thank you! I appreciate you watching!
Great info as usual....
Thank you! I appreciate it!
Very interesting content 👍
Thank you, I appreciate you watching and supporting the channel!
Another great video !
Thank you!
awesome info i need help tho not sure if my 99 electra glide ultra classic fuel injected is a evo engine or twin cam?
You would have the first year of the Twin Cam 88, solid Timken bottom end motor. Just make sure to inspect the cam chain tensioners.
They absolutely would have discovered the cam chain tensioner failure. It’s not even a big deal as long as you make it a regular inspection/maintenance item. They just didn’t want to tell their customers that at 30,000mi, much greater for the later hydraulic design, they would need a possible $1000 service.
That's basically what happened and they never told anyone till the failures started happening before 15k. Even then they never admitted it.
@@GixxerFooit's not even listed in the manual for regular maintenance!
It never was, you wouldn't find that anywhere in print.
It was definitely a slap in the face to loyal Haley owners.
Fascinating !
My brother has a 2015 year 103 twin cam. Are there any gotchas to be aware of? (eg, cam chain tensioner, etc?)
From the 96 up they had the issues worked out on those, the 103 is a good solid motor. The hydraulic tensioners are a lot better, I would check them at about 50k just to be safe but other than that the 103 is good to go.
Don't oil cooler sometimes cause excessive varnish and sludge because of uneven cooling and slow warm up?
It's possible, but that's just like short tripping a car. If you get the bike out and ride it, get it up to temperature and run some miles it won't be an issue. Also keeping up on your maintenance will prevent anything like that from happening. Slow warm ups aren't an issue if give the bike a few minutes to build some heat and circulate the oil.
Great video 7 like I subscribe so many good info to learn from you thanks for upload all your stuffs
I appreciate you watching! I'll keep it coming each week!
The should put sryling on spot to make one look good.
They could of integrated the oil cooler, using the big fins cooled the motor but transferred the heat to the rider. I don't think anyone would of complained about a factory oil cooler.
They realized that the pushrod geometry was the reason for lifter failure on the rear exhaust ! Over revving the engines ! Thus the twin can engine ! 😎
They really improved that push rod angle over the Evo, the Evo really needs lifters every 40k with that gnarly angle they ran.
9:18 That's a great 2 cents...HD had enough going on introducing the TC88...So they figured, hell, let the customer figure that one out.
That's basically what Harley does to it's buyers, it's like they get them to last through the warranty period.
I have a 2000 Twin Cam 88 and I like the sound of my gear cams. Great content new subscriber thank you so very much for the video
I appreciate the sub and your support! What bike do you have your 88 in?
@@GixxerFoo I have a very well-kept Road Glide. Most people think it's a 2010-2011 because I have the S&S headers on it which run underneath the frame of the bike. I enjoy the open road. I live in Texas and road to the Upper Peninsula of Michigan through the Smoky Mountains last year. (5000 miles with no issues) And I'm planning another trip to the Smoky Mountains next month
You can't beat that kind of riding, that is awesome! One day l am gonna do some rides like that!
@@GixxerFoo if I stay healthy enough I plan on a trip to the Ozarks next spring. It'd be fun to stop in for a chitchat. Getting old is not for the weak at heart. LoL
That's some beautiful country up that way!
Hi there. Big Fan across The Pond.
Rumour has it that the Italian Motorcycle Company called 'Cagiva' had a hand in that Twin Cam Design? Is that right?
I haven't heard anything about that for the American market. I'll do some digging and see if maybe they consulted with Cagiva for other markets, possibly for emissions reasons.
Hi Bro.
Since contacting you i done a bit of digging myself & i can't find anything concrete however according to Wikipedia (Don't laugh) H-D bought out Cagiva's Parent Company in 2008 (MV Augustu) so they would have been too late to have a hand in the making of the Twin Cam but maybe in the M8?
Now i'm wondering if it is B.S?
I will be interested if you find something.
Take care Buddy
Harley did own MV for a while, 🤷♂️ why they bought l am not sure. It didn't seem like we saw any of their high tech make into the Harley. Well engine at least. I believe they sold it off already though.
I believe the 2 stroke harleys in the 70's were rebranded Cagivas. I am not sure if Harley bought them or just contracted with them.
Water cooling - 4, 5 or 6 letter word? As in VRSC? VRSCA, VRSCB, VRSCD ... VRSCDX?
😆😂 l dunno how they pulled that off with Vrod. Loves those bikes, my dad has one he is 73. Rides the crap out of it too.
Forgot about the B designation for the Softails.
So is the only way to tell if you have an 88B motor is if you have a 2000 and up Harley Softail? Are there any marks to look for to see if the previous owner changed the engine?
that was really good on the history wow. i have subscribed. cool deal. look forward to more content. one comment though - you the twin cam was more efficient than the single cam. so why did they go back to single cam. great job on the history.
Thank you, l appreciate it! Likely with the 4 valve heads they could go back to a single cam design. Back then they were trying to meet future emissions standards with 2 valve heads.
@@GixxerFoo oh yeh forgot that lol. that makes sense.
I am not 100% on that but that would be my best answer. Lol and reduce manufacturing cost.
I like that shelf lol
😄😄👍 It's become quite the conversation piece on the channel!
I had a 2010 road glide custom with a 96 in.³ motor with no oil cooler so I ordered one. black and when it came out of the box I immediately took the oil cooler cover and send it to the paint shop to paint it to match my scarlet red paint problem solved ,looked great and did what it was supposed to do that was in 2010 funny how today there’s a myriad of oil coolers, cover upgrades and color matched cowlingsWhen my wife got her Laguna orange 2017 road glide S that had a larger factory installed oil cooler and big black cover I immediately removed and
sent it out as well that oil cooler cover along with a painted inner faring really sets that bike off great little details to take something ugly and really make it a part of the bike
I would live to master paint for those reason right there! Color matched parts just can't be beat.
The sound of the cam gears wasn’t quiet enough for the epa? Wow. That’s unbelievable.
Yeah, they have to take every noise the bike makes into account. They had a lot of work on m8 into making the motor quiet so they could have a bit louder exhaust. Especially with the Screamin Eagle exhaust and still be legal.
The twin cam is three times louder then the M8,debunked that theory
Dj L theres a few years in between there.
Friend of mine just picked up a h.d. prototype twin cam motor that didn't get destroyed
Really?? One from back in the mid 90's, how and where?!
I saw one when I was flying around on my pterodactyl a few weeks ago.
Why did adding the counterbalanced engine allow the motor to fit in the frame? I don’t understand how the dimensions were affected
Early twin cam motors are the best motors they made
Oh no doubt, they never should of got away from the tapered Timken bottom end. You can add them to a newer Twin Cam with a sleeve on the output side.
I have a 2006 88 with 11000 miles all stock except for air filter and screaming eagle touring mufflers and a power commander should I be concerned?
The dyna that year had the hydraulic tensioners, softail and touring still had the spring tensioner. Most of the issues were on the earlier models. I'd just check it every now and again.
I thought the oil return problem was an acoustic phenomenon where pulses from the crankcase created a standing wave that blocked oil from returning to the case?
It was, that was the issue of how the air in the crank case was interacting with the oil. It was definitely a phenomenon.
@@GixxerFoo There is also the problem of one scavenge pump and two inlets for it - once either the cam chest or crankcase was cleared of oil the pump sucked air until both had sufficient amounts of oil to get suction from both cavities. At that situation - sucking air - the scavenge pressurises the oil tank which then vents back to the cases..... all the oil in the crank compartment then churned up so much so as to leave the top end of the engine with way to much oil in it, resulting in oil going through the rocker box breathers into the air filter, combustion chamber and slowly emptying the oil tank.....
Incidentally, I suggest you investigate the Scavenger total oil change system so as to remove the oil left in the engine once the bike has stopped. After doing the oil change as directed with a Scavenger, my twin cam had well over a litre of old oil left in the engine.... my Sporty had just under a litre of old oil that contaminates the new oil.... Check it out on TH-cam here.... Rogue Choppers Scavenger.
Damn! Yeah that's a great idea to check into! I always start draining the oild immediately after shutting the bike off to try and get as much out of the tank as possible. But without the system you suggested there's no way to get it all.
Bigger bore and shallower chamber for more complete burn for epa -
Then it goes too production we’re they throw out the good timken bearing and change cam needle bearings to half as many and plastic cage -
That's basically what they did to save money on production cost.
No wonder HD sales are down, it seems like their problems started long time ago.
Oh yeah, most of there issues are caused by the form over function culture they have.
I was not going to go with a TC after '95 1340. Figured HD must have thought TC was the way to go. I have an FXDL made in 11/98. At 25k mls it's had the original chain tensioners replaced. The replacement spring tensioners have 9k on them with almost no visible wear. That suggests it was the shoe material that was the problem. Sounds like a sewing machine mechanically. Probably won't go back to Evo, the TC has noticeably more torque.
The shoe material used was one problem, they won't say it but they had a bad run of timing chains that were more fit for a chains saw there.
yeah I dont understand about the crappy tensioners either..
Awesome should do a video on the Milwaukee 8.
That's not a bad idea at all, I really think Harley would of kept the Twin Cam platform if it hadn't been for emissions standards. The Twin Cam wasn't going to meet the super strict requirements of Euro5.
Do you think adding an oil cooler from the factory would of ruined the look of the Twin Cam powered motorcycles?
I do not. AND whatever anyone thinks about what it looks like needs to ride a new one. I never thought I’d ever buy a NEW Harley. But the now oil cooled motors are fantastic from a riders perspective.
Yes! Integrating it between the frame rails was a good move and it blends in really well!
My feeling on this is that if I per say had to be subjected to slow stop and go compacted traffic, I would want to install a fan. A small fan on the rear back side of the rear cylinder and one in front on top of the regulator between the frame tubes. Then turn a toggle switch on to turn them on until I got moving. Water cooled? NO, because just lie a radiator or leak in a hot car engine upon this happening will ruin one of your body parts for LIFE. Plus motorcycle are getting so many things added that you cant see the damn motorcycle any longer As for oil coolers i feel like this, its good but it also delays the time it takes for that engine to get upper oil and you would need to increase your oil pressure and if you dont increase your oil pressure you will ruin your engine
Fans wouldn't be a bad idea idea, they had parade mode on the 96's for the rear cylinder. I've talked to some guys that had the rear cylinder on older carbed bikes overheat and seize. I know it's good for the motor but dang l couldn't run the Luv Jugs. They work damn good but l just can't get past the look 😬.
@@GixxerFoo Yea, it would look funky, but my idea would be to use those small personal desktop fans and paint them black so they wouldnt show up so much, but i know i could do this i could edge it on top of the inner primary cover to blow upward on the rear cylinder
did u just fart at the end...😂😂😂
very informative thnx..💪👊👍
😆😂 l have had that on every single video and you're the first to say anything about it.
Noticed that the first vid, thought ever body knew😀
😆😂 very few have said anything if they noticed it or not
A guy told me 2 days ago just how much better the evo engine was and I'm like dude if the evo was better then Harley Davidson would be still putting the evo in all the bikes today but thats not the case now is it.
The Evo was a very reliable engine and super simple to work on, that's a lot of the reason why it was so loved. From a business standpoint it may of been too reliable and left parts and service with nothing to do.
The twin cam is a great compromise of evo sound and m8 performance,but the heat of the engine is a problem in summer so oil cooler would solve that.the m8 engine is great but it loses the evo and twin cam sound we all enjoy.new harleys are more like victorys.next harley will have overhead cam big v twins lol
Trivia: The FIRST Twin Cam engine was made in the 1930's (not sure exact year) for a Flat Track racer. Wheels Through Time museum has a running model.
Wheels Through Time is one amazing collection, they have some very rare items in there. Don't they have that one off bike found in a wall? I believe it's called a Traub?
@@GixxerFoo You're absolutely correct. They started it when I was there. The story behind the "One Off" bike is amazing. I could spend days in that Museum.
I love bikes like that, that one has quite the story too.
Actually the first twin cams were built in the 20's
Interesting ! I've switched shift drums to one from Evo 5 speed & never noticed a problem other than the clunk is gone ! Also had the chance to use A motor flywheels in a B motor case & leave the balance shafts out & it works ! In 06 dynas & then 07 & up bikes the 6 speed is prone to main bearing failure & compensator failure which takes out the starter & breaks the splines off the clutch hub . Just some further information ! Thanks !
Dang you've done some interesting internal work. So what made you pull the balancers out of B motor? That's the cool thing about Harleys is that everything is so interchangeable.
@@GixxerFoo I was using a big cam high compression & ported heads & I could see no point in spinning the balance shafts ! I have a engine machine shop been at it for a long time !
Ahhh so you got the tools and the talent to do basically whatever you want. Sounds like you can pretty much make whatever you need!
Love my Twinkie . The Factory can keep the Hateful Eight junk
Of course they knew about the tensioner issue. Playing dumb sold a whole lot of screaming eagle cam plates.
Needing more vibration so it will shift well is BS. Many smooth running bikes don't have this issue, like Goldwing...
I have a tip for you. Don't use chipboard for shelving. 😆
😆😂 yeah l had that laying around and it was temporary a few years ago. Lol l am gonna change it now.
Haha. She’s a little bowed huh.
The tensioner issue is in reality overblown by internet chat groups. Ive never met anyone that had the issue personally. Never even heard of anybody with it aside from the internet. To me if u got the bikes that could be affected it's just a part of maintaning ur bike. The mechanics should be inspecting the area anyways right. If the internet was as big during the evo days people would have bought up the issues it had as much as people bring up the twin cans problems. I have an evo and love it. But I don't believe it's perfect. Rear cylinder gasket. My motors weakness. But I ain't whining about it. Just replace as necessary.
and the EVO was in development when AMF had the company
It was in the late 70's, they knew they were gonna have to do something and make it more reliable. That unleaded fuel in Shovel Heads caused all kinds of problems, Harleys not a incapable company. They would of dominated road racing with the VR1000, they had that in 1988. But the big wigs wouldn't let them race it till they had a management change in the mid 90's. By then it was way out of date and behind in technology.
Top info.
To me, the latest version of the twin cam maybe is the best engine ever made by HD.
Maybe.
Cheers.
Agreed
Thank you! I've got a video coming comparing the last version of the twin cam to the 88 and 96.
@@GixxerFoo Cool.
@@GixxerFoo Can't wait!
Check parts diagram of an M8. In my opinion they took a step back to Evo basics for this engine. Single cam with a chain between crank and cam instead of gears, and cam is centered vs pre pre-TC engine. 99 to 06 engines were probably the worst engines in motorcycles and those years sold in big numbers. Cam chain tensionners, shifting flywheels, failing tapppets, failing inner cam bearings etc. And Harley is wondering why so many consumers are not buying another HD. They (MOCO) might be doing much better if the Twin Cam never existed.
That's exactly what l thought myself when that M8 came out is they went back to a modernized Evo style design. The 88 years were pretty rough, the twin cam improved but it was never perfect.
@@GixxerFoo Never forget that the Evo was almost bullet proof, except as mentionned cracking engine cases in early 90s.
That was really the only major issue with them if you really started pushing them hard.
@@GixxerFoo The Evo had two issues (missed one in comment). The engine cases that cracked, but of all the people I know that rode their EVOs hard one person that this happened to. Secondly, if INA inner cam bearing was not replaced ASAP it could also do damage.
That's true and they had some issues with cyclinder studs pulling out of the cases. That's why they spread them further apart on the twin cam.
My 01 88"road king doesn't feel that powerful.. Now my 14 Rushmore FLHR model H.O. output is a different animal..
Those Rushmore bikes are awesome, they made a lot of improvements!
is this a fart sound at the end or what ? :D thank you for the video btw. :)
😄😂 it is, I been putting it there for years to see if anyone watched to the end and noticed it.
@@GixxerFoo ever been asked before? :D
Awesome
Thank you, I appreciate the support!
I hate the cam chain tensioners. Have gears. 😀
Gears are worry free when you get that conversion done!
Counter balancer best thing harley ever added.
Yeah they did too good of a job on it too lol, it's a really nice ride since they figured out how to fine tune it.
EVO was a Porsche design.
What i dont get is this. Why was S&S able to build good big big bore long stroke engines and HD not ?
Harley had to meet emissions standards as an OEM would be my guess.
I thought the V-Rod engine was a Porsche design.
@@whatsstefon
Porsche was also hired to help Harley develop the Evolution engines and the Twin Cam engine, primarily with emissions control matters. Inside all Harley engines you will find German pistons from Mahle and in the V-Rod and Big Twins you will find gears and shafts sourced from Getrag. Early V-Rod engines had even more international content, with French head castings, German powder forged conrods and a forged steel crank from Hatz, a German manufacturer of small diesel engines. Even the gaskets have "Germany" cast into them! As an old "propeller head" (BMW bike enthusiast) this gives me a lot of confidence in this engine. I am guessing, until I know differently, the Revolution-X engine is every bit a quality piece as the V-Rod mill is.
It was developed with Porsche, Harley has worked with them quite a bit over the years.
@@GixxerFoo with Porsche is the same as..... Please help, we don't know.
That four letter word "nova"
I am gonna get into that project in another video, Harleynwould of looked a lot different today had they gone that direction.
He forgot to mention the 1999 cam bearing problem Harley had.
That's another thing you would think they would of caught during testing!
Awesome Video👍
The Twin Cam was “abandoned” to early within the motors evolution for the Milwaukee 8.
So goes the life of Harley Davidson 🤷♂️
Thay was exactly how l felt too, they finally had the bugs worked out and they dropped it.
I traded my 2010 Roadglide custom for a 2020 RoadGlide s I respectfully disagree. So far this bike does it all for this 63 year old rider.Fit ,finish quiet motor even after a stage 2 torque cam, suspension for now is fine Seat and handle bar design comfortable.The twin cam when it first appeared had its faults and some remained.Compensators,crank shaft runout, both cam and chain tensioner oil pumps.I traded my bike with 42 k on the OD and addressed these issues as needed . Pardon me if I have repeated this but a guy wrote not long ago.” You have to maintain a motorcycle like you would an airplane .” How true performance is great but professionally installed parts replaced in a timely fashion is the difference between riding your bike and waiting for a tow.
Maintenance is key for sure! I like that new M8 myself, they sound and run really good with a cam in them too!
Twin Cam already geting and Evo reputation lol i have a 2013 103. Ironicly the reasons i bought it wasnt just because of it being a problems ironed out bike, its a Streetglide and i liked the no computer screen and no abs. The motors been great so far and im only at 25k so i'll be riding it for awhile.
The style department being able to overrule engineering sounds like a bad idea to me.
It's really held Harley back over the years, l really think about a lot of the innovation that could of gone into the bikes and still looked good.
AGAIN , If you use AMSOIL 20/50 motorcycle oil you won't need an oil cooler and all the crap that goes with it . Besides being ugly as hell its also expensive as hell , plus the leakage problem that always seem to crop up with all the vibration . The 88 twin cam is and has been one of Harleys best engines EVER ! There have been several reports of TC 88's with over 200,000 miles & still going strong with nothing more than standard regular maintenance !
The 88 is an excellent engine, it just got a bad reputation with the tensioner issues it had the first couple of years.
subscribe? like the video? are you crazy? ooh yeah I did that already lol. Love your videos
👍 I appreciate your support!
@@GixxerFoo from the start
Nothing taboo about oil coolers
you dont need 8 valves on a Harley? you dont need 2 cams on a harley, leave it alone go back to a bigger evo and be done wiith it my friend has 100,000 miles on his first bike 84 evo.
I said for years they should've used the Sportster engine design but in a big inch engines. Same design in a 103 inch, torque would come with displacement and they would have the reliability. M8 really harkens back to the Evo in a lot of ways, most noticable is the single cam.
👍👍🙏🙏💜💜💖💖🏆🏆😎😎
All my twin cams got a oil cooler it’s insurance
That's one of the best accessories items you can do for any twin cam 👍
Epa is killing motorcycles. Epa standards killed the Kawasaki klr 650 and now their choking Harley Davidson. Soon they'll have to go all over head cam and liquid cooled motors. If that happens then Harley Davidson will be like the rest.
I keep waiting and hoping Kawasaki comes back with a new KLR 650, that's a indestructible bike. Harley could keep the engine design and look, just make it water cooled. Hell Kawasaki did it for years, the 15, 16 and 1700 Vulcan looks air cooled but it's water cooled. They got real close to the Harley sound with overhead cams, just backed it off after Honda made a Shadow pissed Harley off cause it sounded just like a Harley 😆😂.
Way back ? FCK i ride a 54 Panhead.
That's a classic, l bet you can't stop anywhere without talking.
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They didn't "discover" the cam tensioner issue because they engineered it into the original design on purpose. People are sheep and no one more so than people who buy a new Harley Davisdson every other year or so.
They blamed it on a bad run of cam chains, which that was true. There was a bad run for a while that was like a chainsaw chain. For whatever reason the intent was 30k miles before replacement, it was an epic failure on Harley part. But many did get them replaced quietly since it was never officially acknowledged or recalled.
@gixxweFoo What’s your source of information? I very much enjoy the content and style of presenting. I do wonder where you get the information however.
Not in a bad way but more in a way that no one should believe what someone says just because they said it and therefore it must be true. Looking to verify the story. Thanks! And I liked the vids as well as subscribe.
Thank you for the sub! I've picked up a lot of it over the years just talking to others in the business. Sales, Service, Management, Parts, they've all heard and seen things, been to different dealer meetings and talked to all kinds of people. Years ago you had Harley reps that were there when these things were going on and now they are mostly retired, you never know who you'll run into at bike nights. I get information from many different sources, but time spent working at various dealers has been my best source.