A Very Rare Confederate Columbus Armory Carbine
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ก.ค. 2024
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Carbines made by the Columbus Armory are particularly scarce, and their history is not really well understood. They were manufactured by John Gray of Columbus SC, whose brother William Gray was a partner in another (better documented) Georgia arms factory under the director of J.P. Murray. John Gray appear to have started producing guns with a contract for Alabama, most likely with the help of his brother’s company - the Murray arms are extremely similar to the Columbus Armory guns. Gray had a contract for 200 rifles and 1000 carbines, of which only 176-183 guns are documented as having been delivered (records show 176 guns delivered, but Gray was paid for 183).
Note the PRO / FCH stamp on the barrel; the is the inspection mark of Captain Humphries, commander of the CSA arsenal in Columbus. Mechanically, this is a Mississippi-style carbine with a .54 caliber 23 1/2” barrel with 3-groove rifling.
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Ian: "This is a flintlock rifle."
Me: That is the oddest flintlock i have ever seen, but ok.
Interestingly, the captions correctly call it a percussion rifle. Despite the fact that many call him Gun Jesus, Ian is in fact not entirely perfect 😅
He just misspoke, dummy lmao
As someone who knows little about both firearms and manufacturing, one of the most interesting things I've learnt from this channel is the difficulty in going from a completed prototype to successful mass manufacture.
Especially back then when every barrel was hand forged and the iron it was forged with would very drastically with each batch of raw material received atleast today we have precise milling machines that we can get running and barrel today are cold hammer forged so the quality is better and manufacturing is slightly easier
@@rebelrat3594 And some modern companies still get it wrong.
@@Pheonixco I absolutely agree
This is why a production engineer is expensive and why to hire a master production engineer with a track record, you need to bring large amounts of money, transfer allowance, signing bonus and stock options. Geoff Who was an engineering school drop out.
@@geofftimm2291 when it comes guns you want a gunsmith not an engineer look up the British sa80 to see what happens when an engineer builds a gun look up John Moses browning to see what happens when a gunsmith builds guns still in service today and he's been dead for about a hundred years
I wish he had mentioned the caliber. Original pattern 1841 Mississippi rifles were 54 cal. But most were bored out to 58 cal. for issue during the war between the states. From the looks of it , it may be 58. But hard to tell from the quick glimpse afforded by the camera. BTW for those not in the know, that is a percussion and not a flint ignition system. Ian’s mind must have been overloaded by handling to many different old rifles this day. What a problem to have. Thanks for the vid.
Yes, I was also interested in what typical loads+projectiles were used in this period of muzzle loader, and how this piece fits in.
Would also be interesting to use a bore scope to examine the quality.
An infantry long arm would have used approximately 50 to 60 grains of FFG black powder, topped of with a conicle, hollow based bullet ( mini ) of about 500 grains. Though it is quite possible that this carbine was used with a buck and ball load a may even be smooth bored .
He mentions in the description that it's mechanically a 54 cal, and it seems like the bored out caliber change is sort of thing he would mention.
See the description.
@@kevinschmidt3846 3 groove rifling according to the discription
You go to an out of the way gun show, there is a rifle with no providence, but is obviously old. Nobody at the gun show can tell you anything about the rifle, other than it appears to be old.
You fortunately, get ahold of Ian and show him the rifle, he immediately tells you what it appears to be, and that there are only six know copies in the World with two subtypes, then Ian reaches around the back and pull out an authentic version of each subtype and walks you through which version your new purchase belongs to.
To you, this is a once in a lifetime moment.
For Ian, it's a day that ends in Y.
The carving in the stock actually looks nicely done.
I live close to Columbus, GA and the history of its relevance to the American Civil War is awesome. They still produce firearms there as well, HK has a production facility in town.
Me too!
With all due respect, HK USA is about 2 miles north of me here in Columbus, GA, not Columbus, SC where this rifle was made. Both are important and interesting places with civil war history though!
@@SeWallis you need HK products in Columbus.
@@SeWallis I should’ve clarified Georgia, not South Carolina. Too many Columbus’ in the US
@@SeWallis funny I have seen more HKs at Barrows in Taylor County than in Columbus at Shooters ha
Ah the old armory vs arsenal vs ordinance trick to confuse people regarding a commercial vs government endeavor...
Rock Island has entered the chat.
Who ever does the closed captioning is very good. They changed flintlock to “percussion”lock.
Good catch!
I have a .58 Euroarms repro. of this carbine that is very accurate with patch and round ball. I have won several 1st place prizes at my clubs Turkey matches over the years.
Confederate Calvary, especially partisan rangers like Mosby's, learned early on single shot carbines were worthless in a firefight. Most carried 4-6, 6 shot revolvers.
@@edgarburlyman738 faster to just grab the next gun and the next. The movie PALE RIDER wasn't real. Plus, it would be hard to do on horseback while getting shot at
@@edgarburlyman738 Changing cylinders while on horseback seems like a really easy way to lose a bunch of cylinders.
@@edgarburlyman738 After a couple of survived firefights, there may be enough revolvers lying about for you to pick up a few and mount holsters to your saddle. Quicker to access another gun, ready to go, then to swap cylinders.....especially Colt style revolvers. Extra cylinders may have been more difficult to come by than awhole gun and they all may require some fitting. JMHO
@@jamesgilbert124 not to mention all the man-hours needed to fit the cylinders. Us modern folk are really spoiled with interchangeable parts
@@edgarburlyman738 I like your confidence. Please post video of your attempts.
One of the things a lot of the games I play get right is; making one gun is not so hard, mass producing inexpensive firearms is really hard. Good video!
Flintlock? Must be a hell of a conversion then.
Hey Ian at time stamp 3:02 you called it a “Flint Lock”.
Might want to insert correction text in post editing. Love your videos bro!
Spotted that as well but you beat me to it!
He's probably facepalming repeatedly while reading these comments.
Honestly, I've missed Ian talking about old/obscure guns from before 1900 :)
Man, there were lots of carbine designs during the American Civil War.
At approximately the 3:25 to 3:30 mark: "Flintlock" Ian? Where does the "flint" go? Under the percussion cap? JUST messing around of course! Obviously he simply misspoke, as we all know Gun Jesus knows more than I ever will. Still, he may wish to do a quick edit, if even possible, for those watching who aren't familiar with firearms. Great stuff as always!
Given how information is lost over time I'm glad we still have what we do of 19th century US history.
Just amazing that there are only 3 of these known to exist. It would be very interesting to know the back story on those 3 rifles and where they came from. Who had one in their closet, maybe passed down through the family?
Thanks again Ian, love the history. 🤝🤝🤝👍👍👍👍
5:34 and 1 minute going forward is a really strong delivery and a solid bit of information. Well done. Congrats
"They bought a sword factory, and thus began making rifles"
What a beautiful piece of history.
No way. I had the opportunity to buy one of these at a yard sale a couple of years back. If I would’ve known these were so rare I would’ve bought it. 350 bucks. Fuck me.
@Dixie Crusader 🏳️🌈⃠ Oof indeed. And it was in great condition as well. All markings clearly visible.
I need me a strong whiskey.
Just FYI
The state would have given $45,000 for 1200 guns. Translated into modern currency (calculating for inflation) means the gun manufacturer was paid over $1.9 Million.
That's a lot of money to not fulfill the contract.
*54,000
Confederate guns are my favourite! Ian's slowly getting through all the civil war carbines. I really hope a Tarpley video gets made some day. They're rare as hens teeth but I'll keep hoping!
Ive really been getting into firearms technology from this time era, this is a great video to watch for me
A muzzle loading cavalry carbine....ugh.....I'm imagining pouring powder at a trot and caps bouncing out of my fingers at a gallop while branches whip me in the face.
But I have an 11B bias.
yeah, weren't there much more convenient options during the civil war? paper cartridge revolving carbines at least?
wel, I suppose there always was demand for cheaper options, which this of course would have been. but then why rifle it, that seems like it has more potential to be a hassle with a muzzle loading black powder carbine than potential to be useful.
This would be loaded with paper cartridges. No pouring on horseback, premeasured loads.
Civil War cavalry fought dismounted. If they fought on horseback (only against other cavalry) they used saber and pistols. Rifled weapons had made traditional cavalry charges against infantry obsolete by this point.
@@Ass_of_Amalek The revolver carbines were very unreliable and saw little use, because the way they were designed meant the back of the cylinder recoiled back into the frame with no buffer, which caused metal fragments to shear off into the user's hands.
IIRC in an old forgotten weapons video, Ian said that the cavalry from both sides would use either a sharps rifle or a revolver because reloading a muzzleloader while riding a horse isn't that fun to do
Knowing how hard it was to procure all kinds of guns and not just guns but gear and ammo food and horses ect ect and then the added problems of setting these factories up from scratch its just mind blowing that the South hung on so long against the industrial North
The North didn't really have a huge military industry either, the US Army was very small in 1860. Both sides imported a lot of rifles from overseas.
it was really really hard to just march from nowhere to nowhere and fight an entire battle. Sherman's march is about as far as Napoleon's march to moscow and these guys were just walking through woods and fields
@@pavarottiaardvark3431 Yep, European arms makers shipped over tons of weapons. Would have been very difficult for either side to fully equip its forces from their existing industries. One of the main reasons for the Union Navy to blockade the Southern ports.
All thanks to the Generals that lead the South. Seriously if it weren't for people like General Lee and Stonewall Jackson the South would die in like 2 weeks, instead of 4 years.
From my understanding it was a lot of a case of the South being a lot more prepared at the start of the war. But the moment they failed to gain a quick victory by capturing Washington D.C early in the war they were guaranteed to lose eventually, if nothing else through sheer attrition.
It's a common tale that's been repeated multiple times through history.
Another "should have stuck to making wheel barrows" who got burned by trying to make guns, even simple guns.
A fascinating bit of history.
It's the American south. Not surprising
Always something new and fascinating from Ian.
Funny-looking "flintlock" Ian 😁
Perhaps the original "Mississippi" pattern was a flintlock which was later converted to percussion cap? It's rare for Ian to make a mistake without adding a text correction.
@@jamesdalton2014 I believe it refers to the M1841 Mississippi Rifle. If you look it up it looks very similar to this carbine. He probably just misspoke when he said flintlock.
3:00 The spoken "flintlock" gets corrected to "percussion" in the Closed Captions.
I heard that as well... oops
@@seanhall8686 Looks like you are right, based on what I can find online. I don't know much about muzzle-loaders; I was just giving Ian the benefit of the doubt. I guess I should have watched it with Closed Caps on!
Thanks Ian
I never really realized that there are so many different manufacturers of guns.
has ian done a story on that Gorgas guy? the Confederate war effort pretty much depended on his work.
guns are of little use without powder and lead.
@@WestTNConfed Josiah Gorgas 1818-1883
ref: Encyclopedia Virginia
Have you heard of the Confederate rifles of J.D. Nelson, a blacksmith, of Nelson, Georgia....I have heard there is one in one of the Museums in or near Atlanta....He was my wife's Great great grandfather....Jack L. Austin....
Hi I really enjoy your work,tiny correction,at 3.02 it’s obviously not a rock banger,,,flintlock…best regards from New Zealand.
I can't help notice the condition of the firearm and am concerned about it's condition slowly rusting away. such a rare piece needs conserving before it is no more. Please make sure this piece of history is around for at lest another one hundred years
As much as it sucks, not everything old needs to be preserved and displayed forever. Like Ian said, the CSA had tons of entrepreneurs who believed they could make some quick money by making guns. Dozens, if not hundreds of makers existed and they made simple percussion rifles. The only thing unique about this carbine is that three are known to exist. IMO, that in and of itself does not make this particular carbine noteworthy.
If stored properly, it won't rust any further than it has so far.
I'm guessing that we won't see you on the range tomorrow with this one, Ian.
Very cool, love all the civil war era firearms, keep it up!
Hey Ian, any chance of adding the projectile of each gun as a static display on screen? Its easy to just rattle of a series of numbers, but a pic is worth a thousand ------- 😉
Very interesting!
I don't know much about this angle in the Civil War, so it's cool to hear about.
we need some firing segments with repros after black powder firearms like you do with the smokeless guns, please
My mothers family are the Grays, they hail from South Carolina, and at least one ancestor fought for the Confederacy. So this video was a little surreal.
Fuck. Now I want to buy a sword factory.
"The Columbus Arsenal was the official Arsenal in Columbus"
Ah yes, the floor is made of floor.
Thank you , Ian .
🐺
Thank you for sharing!
While looking at your videos on odd pistols I realised many look like the odd pistols I remember from old Tintin illustrated books maybe Guns of Tintin by Herge would make an interesting video or even a book?
Thanks for the lesson.
My pops gave me a Mortimer black powder percussion shotgun the other day. Love learning about gun history :-)
At 3:01 you refer to the gun as a "flintlock", when it's very obviously cap. Just a heads up! Great video otherwise!
Some super wealthy person needs to remake firearms like these so they are never truely lost.
There are reproduction Mississippi pattern carbines available...
@@AndrewAMartin I may have to look into one for a sweet wall piece but i was meaning more overall old rifles should be remade
@@daltonsparks1293 There are quite a few muzzle loader rifles that are available in reproduction thanks to the reenactment market, from the French & Indian War to the Revolutionary War to the Civil War and beyond. Not sure if they're still around, but Dixie Gun Works used to be a good source for all kinds of reenactor supplies.
Biggest issues in order: limited market, patent issues, legal issues (more market for the niche muzzleloaders because less barrier to entry), potential safety issues (some things done in the past were… unsafe by modern standards), and finally (still quite a large hurtle) the amount of engineering effort that needs to go into making repros more than one at a time is actually immense. Even if you have an example or two.
Very cool looking gun
Even today guns are hard to make. Ever gotten one that didn't work right out of the box? I have. For a simple mechanism there are a lot of things to go wrong. Back then and under the adverse circumstances in the Confederacy...I can see that there could be issues.
You know... Back before the war broke out, I used to be a saucier down in San Antonio.
It could be possible that some soldiers carved their initials into the buttstock of their rifle as a lucky charm,trusting in the weapon to keep them alive. The unending horror of war encouraged many schemes for attracting good luck.
Someone in the comments claims it’s their initials, unfortunately
@@messmeister92 That's ok. Many soldiers under fire resort to lucky charms and beliefs. When you live with death a moment away every day,anything goes.
Thanks for this! BTW, did you intend to say flintlock? This is percussion. :-)
is that hickory? the rather pronounced ring-porousness that looks like the less porous surface areas are harder than walnut kinda looks like it to me.
Nice gun!
Take a shot every time Ian says making guns is hard.
I live in Columbus! Hell yeah!
Awesome rifle! I love it.
Did he say "flint lock" ? He still knows more than me.
I think I saw one of these at the Georgia history museum.
What a little Beauty!
Who had better or worse arms procutement and or industry? The CSA or the Boers?
Probably the csa
The Boers had no arms industry at all. All their rifles and ammunition were imported. One small cannon was forged by a entrepneurial blacksmith, out of waggon wheel tyres, for they smelted no iron.
No range day with this one?
Anybody can make a firearm, but the chances of it firing TWICE are much lower than firing the 1st time. That 1st time firing has a 50/50 chance of also becoming a pipe bomb in some scenarios so just because you can make a firearm, doesn't mean you should.
A lack of industrial base in the Confederacy?? Hmmm, that causes one to wonder why... :))
More like how they womped them Yankees for four years straight but we'll be back and we won't lose on round two
@@rebelrat3594 As a proud Southerner I'd gladly stomp back a bunch of neo-confederate losers if they tried that bullshit again, so it won't just be Yankees you'll be fighting.
@@fam5451 your still a Yankee also do you really wanna die for Joe biden
@@rebelrat3594 Until us Ohioans get to run the war......
@@brettbaker5599 you ohioians ain't got shit us rebs up in iowa are always lifting heavy shit and shooting big guns it ain't the 1860s anymore but I'll bet I can outshoot and outdrive ya
Remember kids: If your muzzleloader doesn't have sling swivels you're not tacticool
Pfft - single point cavalry sling, surely! th-cam.com/video/sy25WDKAGGc/w-d-xo.html like this conversion 😄
I think Ian misspoke when he said it is flintlock, he probably meant percussion cap.
The South didn't need to manufacture rifles, they picked up new ones from running away from the battle yanks on the battlefield. True fact.
Not even close. The Confederacy constantly had a shortage of all military supplies and materials, including guns
3:00 Uh, I think you meant percussion, not flintlock, Ian! :p
At 4:26 into the video It looks almost like a small "M" above "C" and "Y" after the rectangle (full stop ?) at the base of the large "W" on the stock ?
Please ...please take this to the range....
N x
I'd like to see a comparison of "state of the art" guns, from 1800 to 1900, 1850 to 1950, etc. Geoff Who admires your collection.
1800 to 1900 saw the greatest amount of firearms development and leaps in history.
Interesting......TH-cam didn't give me the notification you uploaded even though I have the bell. Kinda sus....
maybe the confeds shouldn't have fought a war to keep their slaves since they seem to suck at war making.
Am I crazy or did he flub and say it was a flintlock, when it's clearly a caplock?
Why did they go for flintlocks in the era of the percussion cap?
Military or civilians/hunters?
That rifle is clearly percussion cap. He misspoke
No take out at the range tomorrow ? I wonder why :p
Because it's nearly 200 years old and we don't know the exact loading those rifles were meant to have remember most of his range days are with modern or reproduction firearms and by modern I mean post 1888 aka after smokeless or modern powder started being used 70 years old for a gun is nothing but 155 years old with no loading specs on a very rare gun just not worth it
@@rebelrat3594 Yeah, that was the joke..... If I was ridicul a bit, I would say that I hope you don't miss targets as much as you miss the joke, but I wouldn't be that mean on internet. no no no.
@@skipspik1571 no I know it was a joke I was just telling you exactly why because people today think that those guns are fragile which yes springs and such might but the bigger reasons and more important ones I mentioned up above just spewing some gun nut knowledge was all
@@rebelrat3594 Fair enough ^^
Do you know if the factory was located on the site of the current AT+T building at 4th. Ave. and 13th. Street....Jack L. Austin....
At timestamp 3:02, Ian says that this is a "Mississippi pattern single shot flintlock muzzle loading rifle" while we are looking directly at a percussion cap assembly. Is something missing or did they change the weapon from flintlock to percussion cap at a later point in time?
The Mississippi Rifle was definitely a percussion lock.
Had the South enough factories to make weapons the was would for sure been longer and bloodlier but the North won. The had more water power with the steeoer river in the north that supplied the work power from all many of factories. Ware power eventually got replaced but steam power. Water powered hammers did most of the working hsmers and stamming to make the guns at sramp out pars.
very cool. thanks
Isn’t this percussion, not flintlock? Ian says flintlock at ~3:00
Hello Ian love the vids and love the reb stuff thank you
Unusual for a flintlock design to have a cap nippple.
s/
Did you say it is a flintlock? Looks like a caplock to me.
3:02 flintlock? 6:54 THAT'S better 😸
Thank you
Judging by the shape of the lock, this could have been one of those conversion jobs.
Looks like percussion cap to me.
You said flintlock muzzle loading rifle, did you mean percussion muzzle loading?
Tee tee hee he said flintlock when he clearly meant to say caplock
You mis-spoke at 3:01 and called it a flintlock
@3:02 "flintlock"?
Ian? That is NOT a flintlock. 🤭 Oops! Thanks though.
3:00 "Flintlock"?
Ian, I'm under the impression that your camera kinda loses it the last months. Please, in the name of archival responsibility, maybe think about a new setup. Thank you sincerely.
Flintlock? you mean Percussion don't you?
Sweet