There was a take on this thats pretty good. We only care about the stream teams not because of the non cheating, but because we can see them. Why care about a team that doesnt interact with their audience at all?
At most, changing the event to "Community Race" or something similar would remove any debate on who "counts" for it. It'll stop the pedantic debates about the title and give a solid reason to exclude non-stream teams for not participating in the community part of the event. Unless SE decides to host their own, the "world first race" is a community event and not an official one, so it makes sense to treat it as such.
It was awesome to see their prog. experience the oh shit moments with them. that's what the world race should be about. And when Echo and Lucrezia were neck and neck that was super intense.
I agree with this. I remember being in the middle of watching Lucrezia, Kindred and Echo all literally 20+h gaming at that time all literally side by side in p5 for HOURS and HOLY shit...but then news about GRIND came out mid that and it deflated the situation because chat devolved into "lmao cheaters haha cheaters surely legal lol" and it just completely ruined the moment. This race is not acknowledged by square, this is by FF players for FF players. It's like watching F1 but one of the cars are invisible.
@@Tylendel_ Yes but we can't assume that that was the only mod they were using. It's not even close to being a mod one might need like NoClippy or colorblind reshade filters, etc. It's a mod that makes positioning easier in a fight that, honestly, doesn't need pixel perfect positioning - the fact THAT was being used means they also likely used other stuff. You don't only use the mod that makes the least difference if you're going for world first.
The race was extremely exciting when Echo and Lucrezia were both streaming at the same time with under 10% pulls. It honestly felt like either of them could get it. Then out of nowhere GRIND shows up with their twitter clear screenshot and it just sucked all the hype out of the race. Honestly the most anticlimactic ending possible. I don't care whether a JP or Western team wins, but having the world first kill be streamed is better for the viewers, and better for the game.
This mod does way more, it creates a circle around your character, highlights different mechanics in different color patterns, measures the distance to save spots and mechanics.
@@PubstarHero this is false. There are two versions of PP - the client side one requires Dalamud. Regardless, client side or not, these plugins are designed to be easily hidden via OBS. It’s a simple checkbox toggle. It only took about 5 minutes of research to learn this.
@@randomgenretalk8151 there are two versions - one is an overlay with no additional features. The other is a client-side with extra features. Both are easily hidden on OBS.
@audiocattt There is one version of Pixel Perfect (as a plugin). There is also a setting to show your hitbox in splatoon This appears to be the splatoon version and not the PP version. All the mods have to operate client side, because the only other option would be running cheats from the server (lol). you don't even need to toggle anything in the app. You literally just set OBS to hook the game window and nothing plugin related will show up. The only time any mod shows up is if it directly modifies menu settings (FFLogsViewer, GatherBuddy, and Artisan add extra context menus when you right click) or if you do a screen capture.
I feel like the conversation on third party tools is a big turning point for our Ultimate WF scene. Because even if people stream their prog, there is a way to hide their mods. So instead it creates a heavy stigma around using mods in the community. It feels like it creates an environment that Yoshi-P wanted to avoid. An elitist mentality of “what matters” or “what counts” So it feels like the more we talk about this issue, it generates more trouble for us regardless of what we decide. I’ve seen a lot of the sentiment from people on Twitter saying using things like ACT with fflogs is fine or using xivalex if you’re far from the servers is okay. But when you start using the tools to gain an unfair advantage, then that team’s progress should be removed from the leaderboards. So it’s already starting. I would imagine you’re correct. They want to make Ultimates. But Yoshi-P doesn’t want to create more toxic environments than there already are. It’s hard to say what the future will hold for the Ultimate race if this type of behavior continues. From both the racers that use third party tools and the community wanting to control the use of them. Thanks for the video btw! I wondered what the JP perspective was and this video didn’t disappoint! Very informative!
But ACT and FFLOGS give the advantage of having good combat logs, xivalex give the advantage of simulating basically 0 ping. These ARE advantages, whether they're moral or not is a different thing but they are advantages. Don't get it twisted.
@@whonikkikki Compared to other third party tools, these 2 are the most inoffensive out of them all, because in the context an Ultimate Race, of course you want good damage, of course you want good ping. It falls under the purview of SE's design much better than things like AM, Cammy and Pixel Perfect, where it very much creates an advantage the devs and community don't want to account for. What I mean is XIVAlex ACT for logs(less so since it has info gathering component even if it's technically QoL) are fine because they act more like equalizers to use to prop yourself to the same standard as those with good conditions.
@@whonikkikki You speak like you don't understand the difference between "walking against red light" and "driving past a red light beside an elementary school at 200km/h" because there both traffic offences. Total fkn clown.
@@TorManiak They don't act as equalizers though. ACT has no reason to exist beyond reviewing logs, clearing fights is still very much possible without that - it only equalizes the playing field if everyone is using it and it's the norm. With XIVAlex, it is only an equalizer as far as you're not simulating bellow 10 ping. Something that some people don't care about and will just sim 0 anyways. That is still an advantage as it could mean getting a triple weave off when only a double is possible.
The problem is that ACT does more than even just logging - let's accept that a log is roughly equivalent to having stream vods for the sake of argument. It can call mechanics for you and you can make it automate a lot of the work of recognizing a mechanic. It's stuff we heard and saw back in TEA and older stuff that a number of streamers phased out because it stopped being considered neutrally. Yet - it's practically impossible to figure out how to improve at the game without using ACT and fflogs to look at numbers unless you've already done that before because this game has about 0 real feedback for how good you're doing in a fight. It's this huge problem that the game gets by by being extremely lenient outside of extreme/savage/criterion/ultimate and a couple other bits of content where it starts to crop up. SE and Yoshi-P can say that 3rd Party tools are all bad but the implicit agreement there is 'dont get caught' because they can't enforce it and they don't want to actually solve most of the problem (put an in game dps meter). What I don't get is how they still have any reason to avoid it when people are already looking at fflogs and being toxic about player skill like in any difficult game, because the dps meter was just an easy thing to look at, not the source of the problem. TL:DR this has been there for like 6 years, but it's continuing to grow alongside the raiding subcommunity.
This is all with respect to RWF: How are you so invested in the integrity of a race that has so little impact on your gameplay experience? Why brigade against Echo to put more money into something you invest nothing more than your time?
There are few events in the MMO community that can generate competition and hype in a similar way to RWF. It's easily the highest viewership FFXIV gets, with the possible exception of fanfest trailer drops.
@@jaesaces I agree. The opportunity for attention is high and it looks bad to the gaming industry as a whole when "xiv rwf caught cheating in clear photo" is the punchline to the whole thing.
That makes no sense. It's not an official race by any means SE doesn't promote or support the race the fight is released for everyone and first to clear is first to clear period.
I always think it is hilarious if ppl believe just because someone streams means they don't cheat xD you can hide that stuff way to easy and on top EVERYBODY cheats. Even stream groups like kindred, their logs were up minuties after their clear xD That being said even if they cheat these teams are still better than 99.99% of the playerbase and earned their clear.
Its amazing how many people think streams will mean they wont cheat. ACT you cant literally move it to another screen so its not on the Stream screen or you can use overlays to hide htings or even god forbid make OBS not pick up specific sounds or applications
the thing that annoys me the most about shumeis response is basically that they said "yeah, dancer cheated" but nothing else - no info about deleting the weapons, no info about kicking the dancer or not accepting and so on and so forth. It was basically a "Yeah we cheated, so what? If you wanna blame someone it's the dnc because he got caught, not the rest of us"
@Lemongh3 Becaue that's what happened after TOP, the players were sent to GM jail, and one of the things they were required to do was delete their Ultimate raid weapons on top of having there achievement revoked. That's what people are waiting to see, weather this cheating will be dealt with by the GMs or not.
I do not think you understand how painfully easy it is to hide any mods or plug-ins via stream. The plug-in manager that these players use has a built-in feature to remain invisible in OBS. This is not to say that those teams did cheat, it’s just important to understand that a legitimate looking stream is far from proving clean play They do have a workaround. The workarounds have been a feature of mods since their existence. Please do not say it’s “proof” just because you didn’t see it on stream.
While it's true that plug-ins and mods can be hidden from OBS, this argument assumes that such actions are widespread and discounts the other mechanisms that ensure fair play. Firstly, while the existence of a workaround doesn’t automatically imply cheating, assuming guilt without concrete evidence undermines the integrity of the players and teams involved. Moreover, maintaining a legitimate-looking stream doesn’t necessarily prove dishonesty; it simply ensures transparency for viewers. It's worth considering that most high-profile teams understand the risks associated with cheating-both reputational and punitive-and the repercussions far outweigh the potential benefits. I think that while skepticism is healthy, it's equally important to acknowledge that stream evidence, combined with other factors such as skill consistency, communication patterns, and real-time adjustments, can contribute to a reasonable level of confidence in fair play. It’s not about claiming infallible "proof" but rather about assessing all available evidence in context. In the case of Grind, the evidence was there and the team assumed responsibility of it.
It's really not fair for the general playerbase to claim that "not streaming = cheating, streaming = cheating". Like what more do people want ? You wanna look at their files before, during and after the race? Also, why do people only hold GRIND accountable for using pixel perfect, when they were definitely *all* cheating, and using much more than just pixel perf, but then teams that showed no third party are also being accused of cheating? The logic just doesn't make sense. It's such a toxic way of thinking
Obs can hide all mods/plugins. If you think streamers aren't cheating, you're delusional. Jp just sucks at cheating. With that said, your assumption that if you stream is proof of no cheating happening is incorrect. Fuck, you can stream and just not have overlay for parser and put it the actual ACT window on a second monitor. You can easily find scripts for mechanics, call outs and input them on ACT bot and send that bot into a private discord and just turn off the sound in the obs mixer. Theres a lot you can do lol Grind got worlds first, even if you only care about the streamed event. Same as last time with TOP. The literal defintion is the first to finish. Community world first is more what frosty does cause so many people dont understand the difference and think only streams count which is dumb. Its still hella funny to make jokes.
I think the difference is that we silently concede that everyone is using ACT to accurately track progression, while literally any world contenders team out there know that if they get caught using Dalamud plugins they're gonna get crucified. Dalamud plugins are capable of far more than XIVAlexander and even arguably anything ACT plugins can do. If you get caught with one Dalamud plugin in your world race and you're not streaming, people are naturally going to wonder what else you have to hide.
@@jaesacesit’s also painfully easy to hide everything period. I don’t know why this “stream=proof” BS is being spread. It ain’t hard to hide Dalamud plugins on OBS. Not at all. Lmao. You click a single button.
@audiocattt It's possible to physically hide plugins that act as an overlay, but 3+ days of footage to scrutinize when people are sleep deprived from long raid hours means there is a lot of opportunity for people to notice fishy behavior, too. Plus some plugins people would consider cheating integrate into the in-game interface rather than appearing as an overlay, so streaming your prog at least eliminates those from consideration. A good example of plugins that cannot be easily hidden include the zoom hacks or XIVCombo.
As someone coming from 17 years playing WoW, I can't help but chuckle at the fact that Echo lost their own hosted RWF. I mean knowing them, and all the other wow RWF guilds, for being notorious plug-in/addon/automation/bug abusers, it would come to no surprise that they couldn't keep up to a certain point without their trusty UI bending programs telling them what to do and where to go. Also the fact that they, like usual for echo, "went dark" on their stream for some time during progress cause they don't want others to "copy" their strategy (which is kinda stupid considering the fight is playing out the exact same on every fight) and then suddenly jump 20% ahead the others also seemed kinda fishy. But yeah they just don't have the dedication and guts to pull through a real RWF like the other real FF players do. And I'm not saying that the others didn't also tried to cheat. It's just that it shows that they can only get that far without 20 programs helping them, whilst other teams are just resorting to 1-2. Also the fact they openly talked about looking at their progress in the ATC data should've been a clear ban from the race
the echo team arent wow players, they were an already established ff static named neverland that got w1st DSR legit with no addons. theyre just sponsored by echo.
Did Echo went dark at some point? I've been following the rwf stream mostly but idr that happened. They did mute the voice comms a couple times but they're still streaming and they even explained the mechs and what they're doing after some times. The one team I do remember went completely dark is DN.
I watched the whole world race. Echo never "went dark." Please stop spreading misinformation. It's okay to have biases, but don't bend the truth to fit them.
The main reason Echo lost the race was because their competitors managed to stay up for 25 hours straight on the last day, not that they were lagging behind cause of add ons, because they woke up, cleared and went back to sleep, literally the only deciding factor was Echo's fatigue from like 14 hours straight of prog
Theres a few misconceptions here: - The ffxiv raid team under 'Echo' are not the same raid team from WOW, its neverland that joined echo as their FFXIV team. Neverland have multiple WF under their belts from the early days of FFXIV. - Echo never went dark during the WF, it was DN that did. Echo streamed the entire thing because they were also the host of the WF streamed race to begin with - They only missed out on 1st place because they went to sleep. They were neck and neck with kindred throughout the entire raid until they had to sleep because they couldnt stay up anymore so stop spreading misinformation since it sure sounds like you didnt even watch the RWF for FRU
There was a take on this thats pretty good. We only care about the stream teams not because of the non cheating, but because we can see them. Why care about a team that doesnt interact with their audience at all?
At most, changing the event to "Community Race" or something similar would remove any debate on who "counts" for it. It'll stop the pedantic debates about the title and give a solid reason to exclude non-stream teams for not participating in the community part of the event.
Unless SE decides to host their own, the "world first race" is a community event and not an official one, so it makes sense to treat it as such.
It was awesome to see their prog. experience the oh shit moments with them. that's what the world race should be about. And when Echo and Lucrezia were neck and neck that was super intense.
I agree with this. I remember being in the middle of watching Lucrezia, Kindred and Echo all literally 20+h gaming at that time all literally side by side in p5 for HOURS and HOLY shit...but then news about GRIND came out mid that and it deflated the situation because chat devolved into "lmao cheaters haha cheaters surely legal lol" and it just completely ruined the moment.
This race is not acknowledged by square, this is by FF players for FF players.
It's like watching F1 but one of the cars are invisible.
It was the dancer? The most mobile and least damaging job of the party was the one cheating, wow.
They were most likely ALL cheating, they were 5 hours or so ahead of everyone.
@@LordNecronall group seriously trying to be world first are cheating.
@@LordNecron sorry but pixel perfect doesn't give them 5 hours of prog,
@@Tylendel_ Which means that it probably was the tip of the iceberg.
@@Tylendel_ Yes but we can't assume that that was the only mod they were using. It's not even close to being a mod one might need like NoClippy or colorblind reshade filters, etc. It's a mod that makes positioning easier in a fight that, honestly, doesn't need pixel perfect positioning - the fact THAT was being used means they also likely used other stuff. You don't only use the mod that makes the least difference if you're going for world first.
The race was extremely exciting when Echo and Lucrezia were both streaming at the same time with under 10% pulls. It honestly felt like either of them could get it.
Then out of nowhere GRIND shows up with their twitter clear screenshot and it just sucked all the hype out of the race. Honestly the most anticlimactic ending possible.
I don't care whether a JP or Western team wins, but having the world first kill be streamed is better for the viewers, and better for the game.
1000000000000000000000000000000000000000% I remember staying up until 5 am watching it, it was INSANE!
Just don’t use twitter. Good advice in 99% of situations tbh
The mod in question is pixel perfect. It puts a dot on your character so you can see the exact hitbox. Nobody but the person using it can see it.
People are saying its the splatoon dot. Either way, still client side.
This mod does way more, it creates a circle around your character, highlights different mechanics in different color patterns, measures the distance to save spots and mechanics.
@@PubstarHero this is false. There are two versions of PP - the client side one requires Dalamud.
Regardless, client side or not, these plugins are designed to be easily hidden via OBS. It’s a simple checkbox toggle. It only took about 5 minutes of research to learn this.
@@randomgenretalk8151 there are two versions - one is an overlay with no additional features. The other is a client-side with extra features.
Both are easily hidden on OBS.
@audiocattt There is one version of Pixel Perfect (as a plugin). There is also a setting to show your hitbox in splatoon This appears to be the splatoon version and not the PP version.
All the mods have to operate client side, because the only other option would be running cheats from the server (lol).
you don't even need to toggle anything in the app. You literally just set OBS to hook the game window and nothing plugin related will show up. The only time any mod shows up is if it directly modifies menu settings (FFLogsViewer, GatherBuddy, and Artisan add extra context menus when you right click) or if you do a screen capture.
When people are cheating, nobody has won. The respect earned is zero.
If you don't want tools in the races then all participants need to be console only.
Thank you I was curious about the Japanese reaction.
I feel like the conversation on third party tools is a big turning point for our Ultimate WF scene. Because even if people stream their prog, there is a way to hide their mods. So instead it creates a heavy stigma around using mods in the community. It feels like it creates an environment that Yoshi-P wanted to avoid. An elitist mentality of “what matters” or “what counts”
So it feels like the more we talk about this issue, it generates more trouble for us regardless of what we decide. I’ve seen a lot of the sentiment from people on Twitter saying using things like ACT with fflogs is fine or using xivalex if you’re far from the servers is okay. But when you start using the tools to gain an unfair advantage, then that team’s progress should be removed from the leaderboards. So it’s already starting. I would imagine you’re correct. They want to make Ultimates. But Yoshi-P doesn’t want to create more toxic environments than there already are.
It’s hard to say what the future will hold for the Ultimate race if this type of behavior continues. From both the racers that use third party tools and the community wanting to control the use of them.
Thanks for the video btw! I wondered what the JP perspective was and this video didn’t disappoint! Very informative!
But ACT and FFLOGS give the advantage of having good combat logs, xivalex give the advantage of simulating basically 0 ping. These ARE advantages, whether they're moral or not is a different thing but they are advantages. Don't get it twisted.
@@whonikkikki Compared to other third party tools, these 2 are the most inoffensive out of them all, because in the context an Ultimate Race, of course you want good damage, of course you want good ping. It falls under the purview of SE's design much better than things like AM, Cammy and Pixel Perfect, where it very much creates an advantage the devs and community don't want to account for.
What I mean is XIVAlex ACT for logs(less so since it has info gathering component even if it's technically QoL) are fine because they act more like equalizers to use to prop yourself to the same standard as those with good conditions.
@@whonikkikki You speak like you don't understand the difference between "walking against red light" and "driving past a red light beside an elementary school at 200km/h" because there both traffic offences. Total fkn clown.
@@TorManiak They don't act as equalizers though. ACT has no reason to exist beyond reviewing logs, clearing fights is still very much possible without that - it only equalizes the playing field if everyone is using it and it's the norm. With XIVAlex, it is only an equalizer as far as you're not simulating bellow 10 ping. Something that some people don't care about and will just sim 0 anyways. That is still an advantage as it could mean getting a triple weave off when only a double is possible.
The problem is that ACT does more than even just logging - let's accept that a log is roughly equivalent to having stream vods for the sake of argument. It can call mechanics for you and you can make it automate a lot of the work of recognizing a mechanic. It's stuff we heard and saw back in TEA and older stuff that a number of streamers phased out because it stopped being considered neutrally. Yet - it's practically impossible to figure out how to improve at the game without using ACT and fflogs to look at numbers unless you've already done that before because this game has about 0 real feedback for how good you're doing in a fight. It's this huge problem that the game gets by by being extremely lenient outside of extreme/savage/criterion/ultimate and a couple other bits of content where it starts to crop up. SE and Yoshi-P can say that 3rd Party tools are all bad but the implicit agreement there is 'dont get caught' because they can't enforce it and they don't want to actually solve most of the problem (put an in game dps meter). What I don't get is how they still have any reason to avoid it when people are already looking at fflogs and being toxic about player skill like in any difficult game, because the dps meter was just an easy thing to look at, not the source of the problem.
TL:DR this has been there for like 6 years, but it's continuing to grow alongside the raiding subcommunity.
This is all with respect to RWF:
How are you so invested in the integrity of a race that has so little impact on your gameplay experience? Why brigade against Echo to put more money into something you invest nothing more than your time?
There are few events in the MMO community that can generate competition and hype in a similar way to RWF. It's easily the highest viewership FFXIV gets, with the possible exception of fanfest trailer drops.
@@jaesaces I agree. The opportunity for attention is high and it looks bad to the gaming industry as a whole when "xiv rwf caught cheating in clear photo" is the punchline to the whole thing.
At this point, a split leaderboard for official (streamed) and inofficial (non-streamed) clears seems appropriate.
That makes no sense. It's not an official race by any means SE doesn't promote or support the race the fight is released for everyone and first to clear is first to clear period.
"Its harder to doctor hours of stream" no it isn’t, you can easily hide just about every mod/plugin through OBS.
I always think it is hilarious if ppl believe just because someone streams means they don't cheat xD you can hide that stuff way to easy and on top EVERYBODY cheats. Even stream groups like kindred, their logs were up minuties after their clear xD That being said even if they cheat these teams are still better than 99.99% of the playerbase and earned their clear.
Its amazing how many people think streams will mean they wont cheat. ACT you cant literally move it to another screen so its not on the Stream screen or you can use overlays to hide htings or even god forbid make OBS not pick up specific sounds or applications
Everyone uses plugins even to report what phase a team is in
the thing that annoys me the most about shumeis response is basically that they said "yeah, dancer cheated" but nothing else - no info about deleting the weapons, no info about kicking the dancer or not accepting and so on and so forth. It was basically a "Yeah we cheated, so what? If you wanna blame someone it's the dnc because he got caught, not the rest of us"
Why would they delete their weapons. PF is already using more addons to clear than this and I don't think they are gonna delete their weapons lmao
@@Lemongh3 I dont use addmons for pf. I do it without bud.
@@magamisic5924 ok, unfortunately not everyone is as honest as you.
@@Lemongh3 this tbh. everyone at least uses ACT anyway XD
@Lemongh3 Becaue that's what happened after TOP, the players were sent to GM jail, and one of the things they were required to do was delete their Ultimate raid weapons on top of having there achievement revoked.
That's what people are waiting to see, weather this cheating will be dealt with by the GMs or not.
Off topic but what was that version of footfalls playing in the background? Live right?
Yeah, it's a CD bonus orchestrion roll and I might have a bit of a recency bias when it comes to non-seasonal playlists haha
I do not think you understand how painfully easy it is to hide any mods or plug-ins via stream. The plug-in manager that these players use has a built-in feature to remain invisible in OBS.
This is not to say that those teams did cheat, it’s just important to understand that a legitimate looking stream is far from proving clean play
They do have a workaround. The workarounds have been a feature of mods since their existence. Please do not say it’s “proof” just because you didn’t see it on stream.
While it's true that plug-ins and mods can be hidden from OBS, this argument assumes that such actions are widespread and discounts the other mechanisms that ensure fair play. Firstly, while the existence of a workaround doesn’t automatically imply cheating, assuming guilt without concrete evidence undermines the integrity of the players and teams involved.
Moreover, maintaining a legitimate-looking stream doesn’t necessarily prove dishonesty; it simply ensures transparency for viewers. It's worth considering that most high-profile teams understand the risks associated with cheating-both reputational and punitive-and the repercussions far outweigh the potential benefits.
I think that while skepticism is healthy, it's equally important to acknowledge that stream evidence, combined with other factors such as skill consistency, communication patterns, and real-time adjustments, can contribute to a reasonable level of confidence in fair play. It’s not about claiming infallible "proof" but rather about assessing all available evidence in context.
In the case of Grind, the evidence was there and the team assumed responsibility of it.
Damn everyone is playing paladin now 😅
ultimate was too easy
Surely you've cleared the fight already then? 💀
It's really not fair for the general playerbase to claim that "not streaming = cheating, streaming = cheating". Like what more do people want ? You wanna look at their files before, during and after the race? Also, why do people only hold GRIND accountable for using pixel perfect, when they were definitely *all* cheating, and using much more than just pixel perf, but then teams that showed no third party are also being accused of cheating? The logic just doesn't make sense. It's such a toxic way of thinking
is there other teams being accused of cheating?
Obs can hide all mods/plugins. If you think streamers aren't cheating, you're delusional. Jp just sucks at cheating.
With that said, your assumption that if you stream is proof of no cheating happening is incorrect. Fuck, you can stream and just not have overlay for parser and put it the actual ACT window on a second monitor. You can easily find scripts for mechanics, call outs and input them on ACT bot and send that bot into a private discord and just turn off the sound in the obs mixer. Theres a lot you can do lol
Grind got worlds first, even if you only care about the streamed event. Same as last time with TOP. The literal defintion is the first to finish. Community world first is more what frosty does cause so many people dont understand the difference and think only streams count which is dumb.
Its still hella funny to make jokes.
the virtue signalling is crazy, when almost 99% of the teams use banned 3rd party tools. GRIND won end of story.
Lol virtual signal
I think the difference is that we silently concede that everyone is using ACT to accurately track progression, while literally any world contenders team out there know that if they get caught using Dalamud plugins they're gonna get crucified.
Dalamud plugins are capable of far more than XIVAlexander and even arguably anything ACT plugins can do. If you get caught with one Dalamud plugin in your world race and you're not streaming, people are naturally going to wonder what else you have to hide.
@@jaesacesit’s also painfully easy to hide everything period. I don’t know why this “stream=proof” BS is being spread.
It ain’t hard to hide Dalamud plugins on OBS. Not at all. Lmao. You click a single button.
@audiocattt It's possible to physically hide plugins that act as an overlay, but 3+ days of footage to scrutinize when people are sleep deprived from long raid hours means there is a lot of opportunity for people to notice fishy behavior, too.
Plus some plugins people would consider cheating integrate into the in-game interface rather than appearing as an overlay, so streaming your prog at least eliminates those from consideration. A good example of plugins that cannot be easily hidden include the zoom hacks or XIVCombo.
As someone coming from 17 years playing WoW, I can't help but chuckle at the fact that Echo lost their own hosted RWF.
I mean knowing them, and all the other wow RWF guilds, for being notorious plug-in/addon/automation/bug abusers, it would come to no surprise that they couldn't keep up to a certain point without their trusty UI bending programs telling them what to do and where to go.
Also the fact that they, like usual for echo, "went dark" on their stream for some time during progress cause they don't want others to "copy" their strategy (which is kinda stupid considering the fight is playing out the exact same on every fight) and then suddenly jump 20% ahead the others also seemed kinda fishy.
But yeah they just don't have the dedication and guts to pull through a real RWF like the other real FF players do.
And I'm not saying that the others didn't also tried to cheat.
It's just that it shows that they can only get that far without 20 programs helping them, whilst other teams are just resorting to 1-2.
Also the fact they openly talked about looking at their progress in the ATC data should've been a clear ban from the race
the echo team arent wow players, they were an already established ff static named neverland that got w1st DSR legit with no addons. theyre just sponsored by echo.
Did Echo went dark at some point? I've been following the rwf stream mostly but idr that happened. They did mute the voice comms a couple times but they're still streaming and they even explained the mechs and what they're doing after some times. The one team I do remember went completely dark is DN.
I watched the whole world race. Echo never "went dark." Please stop spreading misinformation. It's okay to have biases, but don't bend the truth to fit them.
The main reason Echo lost the race was because their competitors managed to stay up for 25 hours straight on the last day, not that they were lagging behind cause of add ons, because they woke up, cleared and went back to sleep, literally the only deciding factor was Echo's fatigue from like 14 hours straight of prog
Theres a few misconceptions here:
- The ffxiv raid team under 'Echo' are not the same raid team from WOW, its neverland that joined echo as their FFXIV team. Neverland have multiple WF under their belts from the early days of FFXIV.
- Echo never went dark during the WF, it was DN that did. Echo streamed the entire thing because they were also the host of the WF streamed race to begin with
- They only missed out on 1st place because they went to sleep. They were neck and neck with kindred throughout the entire raid until they had to sleep because they couldnt stay up anymore
so stop spreading misinformation since it sure sounds like you didnt even watch the RWF for FRU