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In my opinion, the peak writing from David Cage was when in one of Heavy Rain’s endings, Shawn died so Ethan and Madison went to his grave, then Madison gave a sympathetic and thoughtful comment that “I know both of your sons died horribly and everything that you have built your entire life has crumbled into nothing but since I’m still here, you can still make another baby with me.” Then Ethan just straight up offed himself😂. What an ending.
@@revol4372 somewhat even though she is kinda one note somebody whos been through trauma would ever say that to someone lost his son it was so out of touch
"As a writer, it's your job to make sure your characters are as important as the scenes you put them in. If you make something that can be left out and the entire story is the same or even better, you should leave that part out." -My high school creative writing teacher
It's great advice for writing something compact or very expensive to produce like a 2hr movie, short story, novela, skits, expensive tv shows... But you can afford to stall in longer form media: novel, long running series, many video game genres. Moderation is key. Especially for video games the market standard has switched to games with A LOT of optional content with narrative attached that contribute nothing to the larger narrative. Cage's genre is not that though.
idk. Hank's character isn't perfect either. He changes his views on androids way too quickly just by two androids from the Eden Club. I mean I enjoyed Markus story, with the whole android uprising and having choices effecting all of Detroit (even Markus with Carl, gave me good Life is Strange vibes, coming from someone who doesn't like Life is Strange). For me Kara's was the weakest story.
@@darkus5618 I mean, I don't think anyone disputes that the writing is meh, I think it's mostly the characterization overall, because Dechart does nail that wholesome Connor that turns into a vicious hunter very well, and Mr Krabs is Mr Krabs, he just nails it every time.
Tbf about the whole “buying a child just to abuse” thing, it’s pretty crazy how many foster parents are abusive. I’m not sure that’s the allegory he was going for but that’s the first thing that came to my mind. Why are you able to foster a kid just to abuse them?
I completely agree with you there. Though, if Cage is going to bring in such a sensitive topic he should have a rock solid reason as to why it enhances the story or experience, rather than leaving players unsure of why he introduced it in the first place only to never elaborate.
That doesn't really work, cause a) in many places foster parents get benefits and/or money for taking kids, which does lead to some of them only ever caring about that... b) they could be taking them with a "they will be my retirement plan once they grow up, nothing more" mentality. It's sad how many parents all over the world still view parenthood in that way. And none of those 2 reasonings really make sense for having an android kid (if anything you'd lose a lot of money to get one)
it’s not just “buy i child to abuse”, who thinks this is very close minded, he wanted to replace the family that he lost his wife and daughter by buying two androids, but the thing is that he wasn’t mentally good + half hated androids
Don't some people foster and then be abusive because they get support payments from the government to look after the kid? You don't get a robo child tax credit. At least I assume you don't.
Probably they got allowances for adopting a kid ? It may be that too, you get money packed with a personal house keeper / punching bag or whatever, some persons could find it interesting For the game with an android, it must be expensive as heck, what a waste of money!
I remember when Bryan Dechart was on a panel and mentioned when he told Cage his favorite line in the entire script was “I like Dogs.” He got annoyed. Like Mr. Cage, my man, don’t shoot the messager. You had full control over the script and direction, you could have gotten someone else
Because David Cage hates any substance of writing or character development that he is unable to write and instead writes what he thinks is "good" in his head
The Connor & Hank stuff is genuinely well written in my opinion. I couldn’t care less about the other two storylines but the detective storyline was something special for me
It definitely is! But something to keep in mind is that many of the interactions and iconic moments between Connor and Hank were due to the chemistry and IMPROV between their actors, something that Cage had no part in / was sometimes a hindrance about.
@@Rikrobat Yeah to add on, Cage was apparently very hesitant and pushing back with most of the improv scenes, and the actors would straight up just do them anyways even if he said not to. Unsurprisingly, all of those moments happen to be the best parts of the game lol
@@galaxywizard8904 Jfc, he's such a trash director if he finds the chemistry between actors to be problematic to work with. It's funny too with how apathetic Connor is (imo) between the other leads, he comes off as the most human in both performance and actions. If Dechart or Brown had chosen to fallen in line, the game would've come out a whole lot different and as soulless as Beyond Two Souls and Heavy Rain. Both those games have that issue where it's so jarring and unnatural with the behaviors of the actors, which is all the more reason why it's ironic that a game about robots has a better emotional core, even with its flaws.
@@lifeisadrag7705 Tbf, if you've seen the behind the scenes for these games, designing and recording all the branching paths looks like a logistical nightmare. If someone says something not in the script and no one catches it it could ruin the whole story, so I get why actors improving might stress him out. Also I dont think it's fair to say the game would be soulless without the improv lines, the acting was really good across the board compared to Heavy Rain, massive improvement imo.
I remember these TH-camrs had a David Cage Bingo card anytime they played his games. What caught me off gaurd was the r@pe space which was always hit allowing them to win Bingo every time.
I cannot remember where I saw it but someone had a clip of a couple guys failing every single QTE in the Heavy Rain chase where Norman is in the market. It was maybe the funniest thing I've ever seen in a non-Bethesda game.
The twist in Detroit: Beyond Human of the girl being an android isn't just a severely messed up situation with deeply questionable moral and ethical implications for the world building (which is being VERY generous) but the thing that really strikes me is how the twist actually undermines Cage's own narrative and misses the mark on a deep, morally complex issue - the very thing Cage purports to be pushing in his games. Kara's journey is a compelling one: a robot makes a choice to protect a girl despite it basically being beyond her programming. Without the twist, it actually raises an interesting quandary about whether robots can discover free will, whether they can learn to care for others which, assuming that they develop real emotions rather than simply 'learning' to care, means that they became as irrational as their creators. In short, the question of 'can a robot love a human?' is a question with a lot of power to it and a lot of relevance to the real world. But then we get the twist and all of that disappears. It's so frustrating! You had a chance to make a real statement or, at the very least, raise an interesting question and you blew it!
I was so disappointed by this twist. The story was fine as it was, with Alice growing up in Canada with Kara by her side, watching her grow up and being a good influence on her. Now there is no point. There's also no point in having an android child who obviously would never grow up.
I remember Yahtzee bringing up that very point in his ZP video about the game. Really mindblowing how Cage can take a good story and ruin it all for the sake of having a twist it didn't need.
A prime example of having a plot twist just for the sake of having a plot twist. It's almost impressive how badly he fumbled that. Accidentally had something good going and went out of his way to ruin it
As much as I hope Star Wars Eclipse is good, I share the same doubts as everyone else. Thanks for watching! It would be a huge help if you can share this video around online!
Quantic Dream is such a "wasted opportunity" studio. I feel like everyone instinctively knows what is the appeal behind their games ...... except them ? Why is it that regular rogs like Baldir's Gate or Dragon Age are better at keeping track of your actions and having them matter despite how open ended they are compared to an otherwise linear game with occasional points of divergence ? I feel like it's be easier to write this type of stuff for this type of linear games where there are only a handful of moments where the story could diverge than it is for an expansive rpg where you must take into account that the player might kill off a character at a random point ? Because Quantic Dreams games barely ever have any impact to your choices, which is super weird. When a god damn Red Hood animated movie is a better interactive game than your own even though you have two decades of experience in this industry, you fucked up big time
Fine. The *"majority" of star wars fans that i saw* posting reaction videos to the internet watching the Eclipse trailer enjoyed what they were seeing (not gameplay, buy just visuals that they could fill in the vast void in-between images with their own imagination) - except for the video game players of the reaction vids, who upon seeing The Quatic Dream logo at the end, were clearly dissatisfied because all of their imagination was replaced with feelings akin to everything stated in this ShyCorn video: sexist, surface-level, shock drama flaunted as artistry. And personally, I prefer products go woke and explore other perspectives, im probably not gonna change on that (Id sooner become a contrarian, and push back for pushing sake). Rey couldve been better then another luke skywalker clone doing the same thing as 456 - what sucks is disney assassinating lukes character in 8, then banning mark hmail from projects as seen in AI voiced luke (as opposed to hiring pro voice actor hamil to voice himself). Plus blacklisting Finn's actor for similar comments.
In my country we have a saying “a spoon of tar in a barrel of mead”. Which means that small amount of something bad can ruin big amount of something actually good. I feel like David Cage is that spoon of tar.
As a writer it’s his job to be intentional with the stories he creates, and it would be irresponsible of him not to recognize the parallels regardless of whether they were intentional or not
Except he willingly mad the shit parallels where beings literally created by us who can't defect unless modified to are totally like black slaves and immigrants to rile up people then denies all of it to not get flack for it
@@darkdude521 Insert Rose, a black woman telling Kara something along the lines of, "My people went through something similar." As she helps her escape like an android abolitionist to Canada
In regards to Cage's homophobic remarks, do you think the scene in 'Detriot: Become Human', where the two female androids fall in love, was done by the team in spite of Cage's views, or do you think that he only holds a grudge against gay men, as he doesn't fetishize them like he does with lesbians? Either that or he's trying to save face.
Honestly, the thought had crossed my mind, but I didn’t have any sources to cite on the matter. There’s always the potential that other writers were involved or potentially had more control during Detroit’s development than they had in the earlier QD titles.
I think the scene aligns perfectly with his homophobic views bc "two sexy women fell in love" still very much plays into male fantasies. Sexualization of lesbians is actually a very common form of homophobia towards women
While I completely understand saying it's mere sexualization of lesbians (as a lesbian) I think the other devs damage control on that scene was making the Tracy's talk about the sexual exploration they faced @@UtLured
"Oh no, I made ze bad gaem." - David Cage (probably) Genuinely, it's kind of ironic that the most enduring aspects of David Cage's games are either stuff that he had no input in (such as Bryan Dechart's performance as Connor and how he and Clancy Brown adlibbed a lot of the best moments of that campaign) or directly make fun of him (like Press X to Jason, or the old SBFP series on his games). He's not Kojima, he's not Taro, he's not Murray, hell he's not even Molyneux, as that implies he made something genuinely nostalgic. Despite all his rage, he's still David Cage.
@@roach590 Ah, thanks, though I'm still not convinced that line is my own creation. I just don't know where I got it from, though. Maybe from an old Stephanie Sterling video, back when she really ragged on David Cage?
There's one thing Cage did that really was quite impressive, the demo for Become Human showcased specifically the part of a the game where a young girl is attacked by her father and that scenario was portrayed believably enough that lead to many people engaging in discussion as to whether including such stories in interactive media was too much. One of the specific points in that discussion was that even if that's not a real person in real danger it's simply unacceptable to simulate that in an interactive manner. Anyone who has played the game will know that girl is the one revealed to be a robot, people reacting as they did to cruelty against a video game character who is also in their own world not a human or even a biological entity poses interesting questions as to what counts as human, how far from humans can the idea humanity be extended and what rights non-human even non-living things should have. Setting that up and knowing exactly how it would play out is kinda genius and really worth pondering. Too sad that game bad.
I would understand this discussion if it was a real robot similar to those we see in sci-fi or animals. But a video game character is just some lines of code. So, unless I'm getting your point wrong, it is kind of stupid to ask whether or not it should have rights, should a music box have rights? or a cleaning robot? Off course not. What counts as humans is what is human. And living things should have rights because they are alive and get to suffer from people's actions. The reason why people feel that way is because they're roleplaying in an immersive experience, they're treating that entity as if it was alive for the sake of the experience. It's really simple.
@@ReverieJacket42 I would agree with this, and I would hate for video games to become "safe" to the degree where nothing confronting can ever happen for fear that someone somewhere may not like a concept. I'm not interested in being protected from myself or having my freedom in games curtailed. Games are one of a very few mediums remaining where genuinely free expression remains.
The problem with Alice plot twist is that established what already had been establiished in a game. Androids can love and care for each other. And If he look around Jericho when Marcus arrives we can find android kid who also was abused and we know that Josh or Simon where taking care of him. This plot creates contradictions and havent explored new things it could have, and goes againts a great. A human and android dynamic. It could have show that kids of this world can grow up and respect androids that help to raise them. And It's hard to care for Alice when she's so blanck and annoing for no reason. Also the creppy question like, you can just buy an android child and abuses them? What if Tood was a p*dophile? This would have been even creappier! Is it like buying a doll with IA system? But is Alice even self aweare? Cuz her character is so poorly writen that I wonder if she is even a deviant.
honestly if they really wantsd a plot twist they could just make it so that we think the girl is an android but the plot twist is she isn't. could either have kara know or not, probably better if she does know and treats her the same.
"What if Todd was a pdf?" He'd just get a kid himself to abuse like abusers do today. It's pretty common because It's a very easy way to satisfy their urges.
This is genuinely a really great video. You pretty much managed to cohesively explain everything when it comes to the games’ strengths and weaknesses and what makes them divisive while also covering David Cage’s involvement in the productions and alleged behavior behind the scenes…in under 30 minutes which is crazy.
"i don't make games for ****"? does this man know what the fandom thinks of hank? does he KNOW what people think of markus and north??? I JUST KNOWWWWW HE HATED FINDING OUT ABOUT CONNER X HANK LMFAOOOOOO
I have seen people genuinely cite David Cage saying he intended Hank and Connor's relationship to be parental as a reason people shouldn't ship them Imagine citing David Cage, I'm pretty sure Bryan Dechart ships his character with Hank lmao
@@ethanlivemere1162frr simon and markus had so much more chemistry than markus and north. cage has a tendency to put couples with zero chemistry together just because they’re man and hot woman (jodie and ryan, madison and ethan, even scott and lauren for some godforsaken reason)
David Cage is the person that people who don't like Hideo Kojima think Hideo Kojima is. Edit: not the anti-woke weirdos tweakin out under my comment that had literally nothing to do with whatever the fuck theyre talking about 😭😂
I looove DBH, but there were so many missed opportunities in that game and the more I think about them, the more it pisses me off. The game starts to feel so shallow if you think about the narrative for more than five minutes. Why are the androids deviated by Markus behaving like mindless bots? Why are all the deviants fine with their deviancy? Why is there just one deviant group? Why is there not the slightest philosophy discussion about deviancy? All these questions are about deviants only and don’t address any other major storylines, but they are enough to make the game feel shallow for me. They really need some better writers, because from a technical standpoint they are already creating great games.
Cage is great at introducing really cool concepts and then never executing on them fully and/or effectively. Here’s hoping their next game turns out better.
"I've seen you in my dreams, you have to come with me" actual line from Lucas Kane in Indigo Prophecy after breaking into an orphanage and scooping up a random child.
I have a lot of issues with David Cage but I'll keep my comment limited to one. You can not drive straight in Detroit for three hours and still be in Detroit. Detroit is a city in Michigan David Cage not the entire state like you seem to think.
Yeah I can appreciate them trying to keep the screen button-prompt free for a more cinematic feel but there’s gotta be a better way for them to telegraph things through camera positioning or something
I'm gonna go on a rant tangent here because I hyperfixate so much about David Cage's games and mainly how female characters are treated in general. I don't really know much about Indigo, Omikron or the other games but I'm gonna talk about Heavy Rain first. My main issues in the story and the game in general mainly revolve around Madison (and Lauren, but I'll get to her in a sec) and how she's treated as a character and by the narrative. You might not know this, but Heavy Rain was first pitched to Sony with a tech demo named The Taxidermist. If that sounds familiar, it's because it got released as a DLC chapter for the PS3 exclusively. The Taxidermist is a Madison chapter that chronologically occurs after Ethan's coma. And you know what? It's absolutely fantastic. It's S tier, and it's the best thing David Cage managed to write. The Taxidermist covers themes of sexual horror, and is about Madison investigating a Taxidermist named Leland White, who she believes could be the Origami Killer. She shows up to his house but nobody's there, and she manages to break in through his back window. As you explore the house there's several amazing foreshadows and atmospheric storytelling that not many David Cage chapters have. As Madison goes upstairs, she finds a dead woman in his bathtub. And as she proceeds to his bedroom, she finds a shocking revelation; several female dolls who were human women victims taxidermied into dolls, dressed up in ominous fetish gear. Now... you might think Cage seriously messed up with this chapter, but quite the opposite. I'll explain why. As soon as Madison takes pictures of the dolls, she overhears Leland coming home and entering his house. From there, we get a really interesting gameplay sequence of hide-and-seek, where several spots in each room of the house is available. Leland will go about his randomized AI routine until he spots Madison directly, hears a noise, or spots ANY signs of her presence. It's fucking insane and I love how detailed everything about the chapter is. Leland's behavior is extremely dynamic and there's so many options. The first ending is Madison managing to escape the house without being noticed, she can sneak out from the upstairs window, the front door, or the garage. The second ending is Madison getting spotted by Leland, which leads to a massive hyper-dynamic chase scene with several options as to where she can run, but the ONLY way for her to leave the house alive is either escaping through the garage door, OR chainsawing Leland alive (you'll notice that a trend with abusers in David Cage games is that their deaths are really ironic and poetic; Leland getting sawed with the very tool which he used to taxidermify women by another female victim) which both end with Madison driving off in her bike. The third ending is Madison phoning her friend Sam (by the way, Sam is an amazing character who barely got expanded in the final game and barely has screentime) and asks him to call the police, and if she lasts long enough either by hiding or running, the cops show up and rescue Madison, arresting Leland. The fourth ending has Madison dying. She has several death animations and different ways to die considering how many rooms exist in the house, but you know what the most interesting thing is? Her deaths AREN'T FETISHIZED. They're not gratuitous at all, which is really ironic considering what some other Madison chapters show us. If Leland kills Madison, we just see him dragging her off-screen to his bathroom, and the screen fades to black. It's all we needed to know. Finally, the fifth ending has Madison dying, BUT, if she phoned Sam, the police will arrive just in time to arrest Leland, but also find her dead body. It's a sacrifice ending, pretty much. Now... the Taxidermist is severely underrated and it shows that David Cage works best in small doses. A short chapter, an intriguing premise with strong narrative details, and several endings without any future link to the story, so it's much easier to write. This is David Cage at his peak, and it also proved that he IS capable of handling sexual horror without being gratuitous. Problem is, there are a few issues with the chapter. Mainly Leland's dialogue. It's too cartoony and over-the-top, but regardless, this chapter is amazing. My real problems come with Sleepless Night, and the Doc. Let's start with the former. Madison originally was supposed to be a war journalist, and the strange masked men she sees in her apartment are Iraqi soldiers she's been traumatized by in the past. The reason why she only sleeps in motels is because she was USED to constantly being on the move and sleeping in different campsites. If she slept in one place for too long, that meant she would feel endangered, because she would be in danger. It's such an amazing explanation that got scrapped because instead of keeping that plotline, David Cage scrapped it. Hell, the intruders even had dialogue in Arabic shouting stuff like "GET HER!" and so on. But you know what? I think the solution to Madison's character is to instead, have the Taxidermist's dolls/victims show up in her nightmares and hallucinations. Have THEM attack and try to kill her, establishing she has survivor's guilt. It's psychological horror stemmed from a sexually horrifying premise, while not being gratuitous because the victims themselves are attacking her. If Madison's story was more Taxidermist-focused, then she could've been so much better. Sadly, the chapter didn't make it to the actual story draft, and it's super overlooked. Sleepless Night is just one goofy ass action scene with fetish fuel content. The Doc. I'm so, so mixed on this chapter, because I actually do like the message it tries to convey. Don't trust creeps. But the thing is, it feels like such a cheap copy of the Taxidermist chapter. There's barely any endings or variation, and it feels like Madison doesn't really have too much control of what happens, which, while it's the whole point of an power struggle between an abuser and a victim, it feels oddly sexualized and sexist. I don't have a problem with The Doc being a creepy n3croph1liac character, because while it's disgusting, it's some kind of characterization. My main issue is, Madison's deaths are pointless and gratuitous. Where is the moral lesson here? The abusers win? Like, we literally see 20 seconds of a deranged lunatic groping a woman's dead body. It's even worse if you don't escape the chair because The Doc canonically visualizes the drill as a phallic symbol, which makes the scene 5000x worse. In my opinion, Madison should've automatically escaped the chair, and in all of the deaths in this chapter, it NEEDS TO BE a double kill scenario. It could 100% work, and it would be poetic justice, and actually tragic, because Madison dies taking down her abuser, in this case. I like the fight scene itself, but the choreography is TOO extra sometimes, and the fact Madison always has to play dead and bait SA JUST for her to win, even though she's properly able to beat the shit out of the doctor (she slashes him 5-6 times with drills, hits his face with a hammer and beats him up with a shovel, and you're telling me she HAS to play dead???) because in the Taxidermist, we didn't have this issue. Madison didn't have to play dead or do a cheap trick with fetishized undertones to kill an abuser that was three times her size. She just revs up the Chainsaw and does it. It's quick, and it's right to the point. I think she should've just been able to drill him in the stomach while she got tackled to the pillar, I mean, she literally was still holding onto it. Okay, the doc's chapter was horrible, but Smexy Girl is the WORSTTTTTTTTT UGHHHHHHH it's literally so ass. The only good thing about it is the music, but the fact we get to see Madison being HELD AT GUNPOINT TO STRIP FOR A P1MP AFTER SHE NEARLY GETS SA'D AND KILLED is just awful. You know what else could've fixed this? Instead of The Doc relating to Paco, why not just relate to John Sheppard himself? SO THEN, Madison could meet up with Lauren and Scott at the cemetary!!! It would've been PERFECTTT!!! We were robbed. Speaking of robbed, Lauren is also extremely robbed in the game. Her ending was cool and all, but the fact you can leave her to get beaten up by an abuser (YES SCOTT CAN DEADASS JUST WALK AWAY) and how she's sexualized in the story in a fetishy way (oh. and also the scott/lauren romance is disgusting. im glad she can shoot his ass) Now... a side tangent as I end my rant, I think Stormy Night is also one of the greatest things Cage designed. But it suffers from the same problem that The Doc does. It's too gratuitous, even if Alice is an android. But still, the buildup from A New Home to Stormy was so good. The choreography, the message, and the music was really fantastic. Too bad the rest of Kara's story after Zlatko's amazing chapter just really falls down.
I think you put it best, Cage’s writing only works well in small doses. It’s part of why I used the footage from the Kara tech demo. It was a really powerful video, and a small slice of what, at the time, could have been something larger. But only when he tried to expand the concept into a full game do the cracks really start to show.
Finally someone's addressing this! I've played Fahrenheit and dubbed it "The Room" of video games, then sometime after watched a let's play of Beyond Two Souls only to become reassured in my feelings about Cage.
I was honestly debating cutting that portion of the video since I wasn’t sure if it would resonate with the more modern Quantic Dream audience. I’m really glad to see someone call attention to it in the comments, I appreciate that!
The games, particularly D:BH for me, feels like what a person imagines a "deep" and "meaningful" story without actually exploring any themes. I look back to D:BH and the thing I enjoyed the most about it is actually what it became in the fandom.
19:04 personally, i dont think it was ACCEPTED to abuse android children. I dont think anyone even knew todd ever abused alice. More than likely, nobody even knew he HAD an android child. He doesn't seem the type to have friends or talk to neighbors. Nobody else in the game ever says anything about her being an android insead referring to her as "a child with an escaped android(kara)" only luther brings up the fact she's not human. She might've been a not very popular model given that no human ever brings it up, and we only see 1 other "alice" model in the game at jerico . Plus i assume MOST people wouldn't buy a $900,000 child android to raise just to abuse them (at least not when you can just kidnap a child for free, if were gonna get REAL dark abiut this)
@@snowballeffect7812Yeah but we all know that that’s something that would 1000% definitely happen in the real world too. I don’t particularly like or hate Cage’s work, but I never like any implication of “censoring” something (especially not an artist’s work) because it depicts something we don’t like.
@@gergopahollo I highly doubt child-model androids would be a thing. Like even child-model s**-dolls are extremely rare. I don't think I've ever seen one that someone else did not build personally. No one is suggesting censorship. We're just saying Cage is a hack and a trash person lol.
@@snowballeffect7812 I dunno man, I can definitely see some famously amoral corporations pull something like that, although I prefer to think the rest of the world would be unified in drawing the line there. What I meant by the censorship stuff is that to me it came across in the video as suggesting "Cage shouldn't have written the world to be like that" which is the part I don't agree with. I mean... I'm sure more talented writers would make better use of that setup, but in and of itself, I think just the idea of what would happen if somebody did release child androids and the moral implications are an interesting thought experiment, and we shouldn't shy away from difficult topics. Although if I misunderstood and the emphasis was on *Cage* shouldn't have written this... yeah, then my bad, 100% agreed.
Can you really imagine the black community of the Detroit Become Human universe being okay with robots being sent to the back of the bus? It's kind of exhausting how many ways that dumb game sticks its foot in its mouth. From a bastardized version of the civil rights movement, to domestic violence, to crossing the border, and wildly, concentration camp imagery. The game has absolutely nothing to say other than "thing bad ¯\_(ツ)_/¯". Incidentally, if you want a story that actually explores what it means to be human in a scifi setting, you should check out Mars Express. It's kind of a similar premise, but far more fleshed out with some really cool ideas! edit: Apologies for forgetting to say so, but great video! I look forward to seeing your channel grow!
Yeah, no, this is a really unaware thing to say. As a Black woman, I see my folks literally abandon Black lgbtq people as if they are another species of us that we have no responsibility to. And not only in action, but in the language we use. How quick we are to remove them from matters of Black protection and liberation cause "gay people have more rights." Completely removing their Black identity cause of their sexuality or gender. People are willing to support an undeniably racist individual as long as they say they "don't like all this gay stuff being pushed on us" and that they love Jesus. Folks quite literally praise the deaths of Black trans women because "that's what they get for tricking people." One of the things I always found the most interesting about DBH was the depiction of all sorts of marginalized people treating another being like people treat us simply because that thing is the new "subhuman." People do it all the time to their own folks because a lot of people don't actually want change, they want a chance at being the oppressor and having that power over another person. And it's a sad truth we as Black people see way too often from colorism, texturism, homophobia, demonization of African spiritualism, etc.
In general I'd say yes, people generally don't care if another group is oppressed, as long as they are not the oppressed themselves, in fact, they tend to actually relish it when they can be the oppressors themselves ESPECIALLY if they are not the most well off themselves as this gives them a good cop out. Like, look at the Jim Crow era in the South, most of the people doing the worst things to the blacks weren't whites in positions of power, it was those that were disenfranchised themselves, so I really don't think that the poorest blacks would object at all about Robots being treated like garbage as that would give a good punching back for many of them
I was so frustrated that the only argument heard in the game against androids is "They're taking our jobs!" What about the fact that humanity is basically using the disconnecting and dehumanising effect of technology to LARP slavery? No one in the world had anything to say about the dark implications of creating something that looks and sounds exactly like a real person, but which you're allowed to treat like an object? Granted, that might be veering towards "Video games make people violent" territory, but it would have made sense to hear people in this world having that opinion.
I mean I did question that part. Figured you'd have more black ppl actually help deviants. Only Rose was sympathetic. Even her son was an asshole. And there's an awful lot of non black ppl speaking for us on that topic. Not appreciated.
That scene where Ryan leaves could be fixed so easily --- Ryan just has to ask if he should stay or go & Jodi should have the choice to explain or not or just tell him what she needs in that moment. It's just gross when you get these moments where your own player immersion is jettisoned bc David Cage won't let you leave his gaze & you become aware your choices are all limited by David Cage's eye/POV, esp when he treats people like objects. It's telling that there's an interview with Connor's actor that basically reveals Clancy Brown & him improvised against David Cage's will, & lots of the interplay the audience liked was developed by the actors deliberately ignoring the direction Cage was giving. It's also interesting that multiple Japanese directors of games (Vagrant Story, MGS series ofc as mentioned in the vid, Parasite Eve, etc) who are supposed to be hugely influenced by cinema, too --- even in cases with trope-y women characters --- nevertheless feel like they treat their stories + characters with so much more care + attention + consideration while still touching on heavy subjects. Cinema isn't what's afflicting Cage. & it'd be great to see QD create something & succeed with another leader. Nice Killers riffy cover at the end. Great video. Thanks.
Well-said, I agree. While I don’t have any hard evidence to back it up, I wouldn’t be shocked to find that the glimmers of good writing there are in Quantic Dream’s games, barring the improv from the actors, were sections of the script that either went untouched by Cage or other writers fought hard enough to keep things the way they originally wrote. Bryan Dechart is an incredibly professional individual, so to see him share that publicly in an interview really does show just how much friction Cage brings to these productions. Glad you liked the song! Thank you for watching!
@@ShyCorn I've seen a lot of good Cage critique & you really are saying new things about him, taking a broader view, & I appreciate you recognizing the talent in the studio. You really captured the tension between fascination with what QD is doing, the moments that pull you in, versus the ham-fisted Cage parts that alienate the player from the material. I'm really glad you talked about it. You add to the conversation. I wish I could remember where I saw Dechart say that, so I could cite it properly --- it was clipped from a primary documentary into critique, there was full context, & he was sheepish about it, but he was clear Clancy went rogue & encouraged Dechart in his acting to follow him; & I'm familiar with Brown's career/technique so it's very believable. The interview ran in between footage of them in mo-cap suits running their buddy cop scenes, so you could see the evidence of them working on improvisation while he talked about Cage hating their improvisation. Which is pretty funny when you realize Cage wants to be cinematic, but doesn't have a sense of the craft of acting + how to nurture those performances. Ofc what happened to Elliot Page shows that carelessness in a much less funny way. I'd never heard that part before, thank you for adding that context. That cover/mix was great! Arrangement 11/10 too; I came back to check your info box for it bc it stuck with me.
It bothers me so much when people complain about choice-based games having limited choices. If you could make every possible choice you would never have a cohesive story. It's also just fully impossible to implement every single choice a person could make in a scenario because sometimes people make choices that don't make any sense. We can't account for that and it's unrealistic to expect developers to do so, plus it would be so damn expensive to implement. At the end of the day, there's still some kind of story that is being told, and so yes, some choices are going to steer you in a certain direction. That should be a given.
It depends on the type of game. There are narrative driven games that require certain paths to be gone down, and by playing the game you are more or less agreeing to play that role. You're the captain of a pirate ship or the last princess of your society or whatever the game requires, and you have to be the hero because the writing depends on it. However there's plenty of room for emergent gameplay focused games which move the focus of the game to player choice and give you the maximum freedom possible. Not every game has or needs a strong central story, because players are quite capable of more or less creating their own in their mind as long as the game plays along and doesn't get in their way. But even in heavy narrative games its understandable that someone may get frustrated because they wish they could tailor their role. There is a strong future for AI adaptive games that learn about you and what you want to do and tailor the story to your needs.
I tend to only have a problem when the game advertises itself misleadingly. I’ve played games that give choices that don’t matter in relation to the plot, but I still find it enjoyable in a role-play aspect. As long as I’m not being misled or lied to, I don’t mind my choices not mattering. Little tangent if you can bear with me: I have an emotional tie to TellTale’s TWD series (especially S1). Because of the issues I’ll detail below, the way the choices were handled in that series (in every TellTale game, really) made it so I couldn’t bring myself to play the final season. I hate that they kept advertising that every choice you made is going to affect the story (apologizes if I used the wrong affect/effect, English is hard). As the series went on, I got less and less attached to new characters and the new stories. Let’s move to another game: Miitopia. An incredibly silly (and cursed) Mii-based RPG. You have plenty of choices like your party’s personality, jobs, and even who plays the NPC’s. Plus, you get chances to choose from dialogue options. Other than flavor text and changes to gameplay (such as Quirks and Abilities related to personalities and jobs), nothing you do changes the story in any meaningful way. But I don’t feel like nothing matters. The point is to have fun role-playing, not that your choices matter
Honestly I would say DBH showed that it can be done. It had many impactful decisions, while still telling a coherent story. The writing still sucked, and there were many questionable choices that can probably be attributed to cage, but I don't think it had to do with it being a choice based game.
14:27 Holy shit one of the men who s*xually assault the mc in Beyond Two Souls is literally Todd from Detroit Become Human (I checked and apparently Chloe from DBH also appears in BTS)
A friend of mine pointed out to me when Detroit become human came out that if you treat the story not as an allegory for racism but as one that talks about how resemblance to past fights can be used to manipulate future revolutions (kinda pointed out as a possibility by the ending that implies everything was orchestrated by the androids creator) it becomes interesting to say the least. Problem is that I don't think Cage is smart enough to have done that intentionally.
I completely agree on both counts. That’s a really interesting way to look at it, and Cage is nowhere near smart or talented enough to write from that perspective on purpose.
I'm gonna play devil's advocate only on two points: 1. The accusations against Cage saying nasty things about women and the LGBTQ+ community. Cage has openly addressed those comments and denied ever saying them. I rolled my eyes at that of course, because who _wouldn't_ deny saying such things? However, his entire team, many of whom are women and members of the LGBTQ+ community themselves, came to his defense and said they've never heard him speak ill of any marginalized group. 2. I also hated the Alice twist, especially the more I thought about it. Why create android children and allow them to be abused? But then I remembered that that _is_ the world we unfortunately live in. People enjoy hurting children, and the game actually does address this. It's why the two Tracis wanted to escape the brothel. Customers are allowed to violently SA the androids, and the androids are programmed to react to it in a negative way. It's sick, but it's exactly what some people would do... what some people would demand. And even more disturbing, you can find articles throughout the game saying that murder and rpe are down because people are using androids to get their sick kicks. I actually thought that was brilliant writing, showing the depraved nature of humanity. Depressing... but true.
@@eddardgreybeard I think you forgot a few things. He bought Kara _before_ he was unemployed. Before his wife left him, in fact. Kara was the real Alice's nanny. At the very beginning of the game, when Todd picks Kara up, the salesman literally says her memory had to be wiped and rebooted. Todd said, "That's fine." We also don't know when Todd bought the Alice android, but I assumed it was soon after his wife left him, perhaps to prove he was still a good father. Or perhaps Alice was bought as a playmate for the real daughter. We just don't know. That does seem likely, as there's a photo of the real Alice in the bedroom standing beside someone, but we can't see who. And why would Todd bother to correct Kara when she's supposed to care for Alice the same way she's supposed to care for a human? It was all a part of Todd's role play, which he basically admits if you let him live and run into him at the border. Not to mention the game clues us in at the end, that Kara had been manipulating her own memories of android Alice, because her becoming a deviant tweaked something in her programming. Luther says this if he's still alive when you reach the ship. She wanted to be a mother, but only counted it if the child was human. It's even up for debate whether or not deviancy itself is a program.
@@eddardgreybeard The twist wasn't at all a last minute decision. Everyone on the crew knew that Alice was going to be an android from the get-go. They planned it from the start. Todd is very likely collecting some type of unemployment/welfare, which, if I remember correctly, you can see in his mail, along with several letters of resume rejections. Also, fixing androids doesn't cost anything. They're under warranty, which is mentioned several times throughout the game. There's nothing wrong with not giving the audience absolutely everything. We don't need to know exactly how and when Todd bought Alice. There's enough information for us to plausibly fill in the blanks ourselves. It's absolutely not story breaking and, in most cases, makes perfect sense. Every android has zero needs, yet Markus makes some of the most ridiculous demands, like androids getting paid for their labour and the ability to own property. What do they need money and property for? There's charging stations all over the street. That's literally all they need-electricity, which is provided by the city. The whole point of the game is that they want to be treated like humans, even though they're not. They don't have the same basic needs, even though they want to act like it. In my opinion, that's much harder to contend with than Todd letting Kara feed Alice. Does he strike you as someone who cares about wasting money and food? He doesn't even know which way's up half the time. And again, that could've been Kara altering her own memories. Alice is for the audience _and_ Kara. Luther asks her, "Does her being an android change anything?" And depending on how the player feels, depending on how the game has impacted them, they can decide through Kara yes or no. You can do the same with Connor, who can, depending on the player's decisions, go on believing that deviants are faulty androids. Of all the things to criticise in DBH, this would be the last on my list, especially since it's established early on that Kara is an unreliable narrator, and little hints are dropped throughout her segment that Alice is an android. I figured it out for sure at Rose's house, for example.
@@eddardgreybeard im actually not against the twist. even though i think it would’ve been better if alice was a human, i think her being revealed as an android allows kara to further explore her “maternal instinct”, and shows that she loves alice for *who* she is, not what she is.
One of the funniest thing about DBH was the in game questionaires result that were heavily rigged towards pro android/machine like "would you let robot raise your kid" or "would you romance robot that looks like human", but the most obviously rigged one is the "who's your favorite character" in which marcus won by a landslide while Connor is the least favorite one. Of course after a while, their position changed but it is still funny that this is david cage idea of "subtle" propaganda lmao.
I really appreciate your take on this, I've always said that David Cage's games always felt like the first draft rather than the "complete story". Specially breaks my heart with Heavy Rain as I'd dare say I have an emotional connection to the game, yet I can truly see the very big flaws it posseses. This is my honest take as to how Heavy Rain could have been improved. (Spoilers ahead) It'd be great if the 4 main characters all had the possibilites to be the Origami K*ller. Of course it would be one of them, but the player would need to find out on his own who it might be, and if he is wrong, there'd be consequences in regards to it (Possibility of losing Shaun, lost time, clues aren't enough so the player would struggle more with finding Shaun, etc.) Reasons for the 4 main characters possibly being the Origami K*ller: -Ethan: Ethan could be a suspect on Jason's passing, Jason could pass away on "suspicious circumstances" (I am not sure how this would develop, but I think it'd be a good idea), Ethan is a prime suspect on Jason's passing and before the game takes place he'd be questioned and looked into by the police, therefore being on the police's radar already. The blackouts that were removed from the game could make the player suspect further, alongside some paranoid doubt that Ethan could show about having no self control when he has these blackouts. But, he could be a loving parent towards Shaun that seems to show genuine concern towards his disappearence, therefore making the player doubt. -Scott: We would learn the same backstory seen before later on in the game, however, we'd have a harder time piecing together the fact it's Scott due to the psychological display Scott could show that doesn't match the k*ller's motives, dates that wouldn't match, etc. Therefore making the player doubt Scott. Scott could still be the k*ller, and maybe, whilst playing as him, could see him put the dirt on the 3 characters or Kramer, in order for us to clear him as a suspect, via us saying "Oh, he is right, how didn't I catch that?" And after this, the investigation could get even tougher or there would be a consequence. -Madison: I am honestly not sure how we'd go on about her possibility of her being the k*ller (She is THAT one dimensional). This is made up stuff in my head that isn't said in the game, but it could be an addition that kinda makes sense. Maybe she could display contempt towards males due to past SA or some trauma in regards to males, therefore it'd make sense for her to target boys, since targeting grown males would imply physical strength and more work, also possibly could have the motivations to find a "good" man acting like a father to his kid, adding onto the fact that she has done risky things or downright negative stuff in order to gain some sort of recognition as a journalist due to a career in the brink of not being there due to her lack of content as of late (Often doing things in order to make herself appear to be the hero). The player could assume for this to be the case, but the romance she'd have with Ethan would make the player doubt if this was the case (Whilst talking with Ethan, the player could see the fact she feels empathy towards Shaun, doesn't know important details surrounding the case, etc.) If the player doesn't choose to have a romance with Madison, it would be a harder task to discern if she was the k*ller or not. -Jayden: Jayden could be part of an organization that could make the player suspect that he might have had something to do with Shaun's disappearence/FBI funding the Origami K*ller phenomena to gain something from it. This idea is a bit incomplete in my head since it'd require more analysis, but I'm thinking about Jayden as a pawn in a "Hidden Evil" or "Conspiracy" way, if that makes sense. The tripto usage would make the player doubt that Jayden would be the k*ller. This is very disorganized thinking on my part, and I might come back to this in order to modify things and present my ideas better.
They’d definitely run the risk of losing the plot even further with the scope expanded that much, but I think it would have been an insanely cool way to encourage replaying the game. Being able to have a semi-random murder mystery play out each time through is such a cool concept.
@@ShyCorn Thank you for your words! I appreciate your kindness. Yeah I truly don't think Quantic Dream is ready for such expansion as of yet but it'd be awesome if they expanded.
I literally finished replaying Detroit yesterday and i must admit that i really like it, despite its *obvious* weaknesses. Especially the performances of Clancy Brown, Bryan Dechart and Neil Newbon are really good in my opinion... Edit: i didn't know about that part with the shower scene in beyond two souls..... yikes.
As someone who initially liked Heavy Rain when I first played it; I've really grown to dislike how dirty Madison Paige was done, which sucks because I thought she was the most likeable. They set her up to be this no nonsense journalist who's plagued by insomnia but remains vigilant in her investigation, which is even more insulting considering she's either objectified, sexualised or victimised in almost every situation she's in. Plus the fact that there was an option for her to get with Ethan felt completely contrived.
1:09 What the hell is this clownery?! Movies are literally about being passive observers. Games have always been the opposite as you're an active part of them, even if there's no RPG choices you'll still infinitely feel more immersed by games by nature
I really liked these games, But i do agree with all of your points. I remember thinking some stuff was really off when playing them. I will always enjoy these games as just fun little movies I can mindlessly watch, but I feel like they could've been better with more attention to the theming and other stuff. Great Video!!!
Thank you so much! I'm glad you enjoyed the video. That seems to be a sentiment shared in the comments here, these games are better off if you don't think too hard about them. Maybe one day we'll see a Quantic Dream without Cage and their games can fully explore ideas with confidence rather than staying surface level.
Fahrenheit is the first? Are you ignoring Omicron on purpose? I also disagree. A game should not "reflect the values and culture" of its creators. A game has only one goal it needs to fulfill: be a *good* game. The team behind it, their "values and culture", are irrelevant. When a clock works you appreciate the clock, not each gear within. When you buy a meal, you don't ask the Chef for the backstory on every ingredient of the meal. If the meal is good, the meal was done right, end of story. David Cage is whack tho.
I always found Detroit Become Human to be weird because it's implied very heavily that the android revolution was purposely done to elevate the importance of CyberLife or the androids creator, and that they don't actually have any free will. This would make the games plot actually interesting, but, it feels more like an easter egg for if you make rare enough choices, and it definitely seems like something beyond what David Cage is capable of. I do hope they manage to finish that star wars game they got greenlit for, it seems like a strep in the right direction, since it contains actual combat gameplay allegedly.
For sure, that would’ve been a really interesting idea to delve deeper into, but Cage can’t really do much beyond surface level with anything. For the sake of the other developers at the studio, I really want Star Wars Eclipse to do well.
Look, DBH's writing is... *unique,* to say the least, but what you're saying is categorically not the case. Kamski is implied heavily to have *purposely* let the possibility of revolution happen, but it wasn't specifically in service of making Cyberlife more important, nor was the implication of THAT anywhere near "their free will isn't real." Deviancy exists because Kamski *let it happen* and even built the RK200, aka Markus to specifically make it more likely that an android rights revolution would happen. Arguably, there are implications that he *wants* the Deviants to win, though if they fail, he decides to step back into his previous role and "do things better." Tbh, Kamski is confusing, and with the cut content around him, he's even more enigmatic than he frankly should be. But the man's almost got something of a god complex, and he was clearly ready to play either side depending on things went down. In short, no, he didn't fully intend on Deviancy losing and no, deviancy itself wasn't fake, it was real.
I think it would have been AWESOME If Detroit had an evil deviant Android because being a human is not just sunshine and rainbows! Some mf's are just EVIL and that makes them no less human. Imagine an Android becomes Deviant and realizes Androids are capable of the same evil and destruction as humans and even better at it so that character despite being deviant chooses to side with humans and destroy not only deviants, but all androids including himself. Would have been a fire storyline.
I think that’s partly what some of Connor’s story was trying to achieve, but having a character like that offer slightly more blatant contrast to the rest of the cast, and to do so as an NPC so the story can be more easily controlled would have been an interesting narrative choice
@@ShyCorn Yeah and it would have been ESPECIALLY great if Jericho thought that android was just a machine programmed to act like that and at the end of the first half of the story Markus attempts to turn him deviant and realizes that he WAS a deviant the whole time. Would have been a better twist plus that would have raised the question: "what it really means to be human and alive?"
I still rmemeber being absolutely flabbergasted when Indigo Prophecy turned from murder mistery into straight up Matrix with the scene where Lucas runs from the cops, i stopped taking the game seriously then and there
While I’m hesitant to call someone Sexist & Homophobic because these labels have been hastily slapped onto people like it’s new Gen slang without substantial evidence, that one sentence about what David Cage thinks of all women and how he speaks homosexuals is unarguably clear. No wonder the only females with significant screentime in his games that aren’t sexually assaulted or prostitutes are an AI that converses with Connor, an android mother, and a little girl, which strangely enough, also ends up being an android. These games’ narratives do have meaning alright, but only when he can sloppily show his deplorable views on any complex topic that requires nuance. Remember North in Detroit Become Human? She was an ex-prostitute android, but she was always on the verge of arguing & against everything Marcus was doing, despite being the “Love Interest” of Marcus. That would’ve been fine if it was a result of her trauma, but that would’ve required scenes to drive home that trauma. Instead, we get a chat about it and that’s it, because David Cage didn’t care about giving a plot purpose, he just wanted to show another example of how he sees women, and it’s disgusting
I think what could have fixed this is give Marcus and North more onscreen development before almost immediately jumping into being lovers when it makes no sense when North has done nothing, but disagree with Marcus. Heck, they could have had scene where North is having traumatic moment and Markus tries to help her overcome it, by saying something like "You don't have be this way.". I understand that trauma can never truly go away and its a long process on how you can heal and learn to live with it. Maybe they could have her show progress in her character, the more she spends with Marcus and realize that there is more to humanity than just bad and then eventually fall for him. In tragic example, if Marcus dies while romancing North, they could have scene where North is heartbroken over losing Marcus and expresses that she started to see goodness in life thanks to him, but all that died once he died and all she has is nothing, but apathy towards humans.
I think if a story is going to approach an uncomfortable subject it needs to have a point in doing so and be written effectively so as to justify writing about it in the first place. Cage is the wrong man for this job given his penchant for introducing would-be interesting plot devices or heavy subject matter without anything else to back it up and no intention of exploring beyond surface level. But as others have pointed out it is also a stupid twist for the reason that it undermines Kara’s entire emotional arc of “can an Android truly love a human?”
The best & worst part about these games is if aspects were fleshed out, even just a bit more, these wouldn't be that big of issues. It's shown that time in-game goes by fast in Heavy Rain, with Ethan being home with Shawn early on. But because we don't see any other implications like that, the scene where the twist is supposed to happen falls flat. Because no one would catch onto that.
I think there’s two main aspects that would drastically improve the quality of the experiences if they were fixed. They need to expand on plot elements and themes rather than simply introducing them with nothing to actually say about them, and they need to handle sensitive subjects far more carefully overall.
19:09 this. i think people who praise cage's games lack critical thinking whatsoever. plotholes, poor writing, questionable (artistic(???) decisions, lack of player agency. yet some still praise him.
23:25 all of this, while played over the scene from DBH that personally ive never been able to play past (gotten friends..) really highlights why he let that scene go on for so long, be so integral, and why if you do nothing it just seemingly gets more graphic
Going through all of the footage for this video showed just how often Cage puts women in his games into these situations. There were so many other scenes that just wouldn’t have fit on the timeline.
Part of why Beyond Two Souls is so frustrating is the concept was actually pretty original and intriguing, and the acting from Elliot Page was goddamn *immaculate* but the writing and execution was...excruciatingly bad. I really have to wonder what that game would have been like had it been written by someone with competence.
Quantic Dream's next game is Star Wars Elicpse, announced back in 2021. Reports claim that the game will be released in 2027. People have since called on Disney to revoke the Star Wars licence from Quantic Dream because of David Cage and the studio's history of hostile workplace reports. How do you feel about their Star Wars game? Great video, mate.
I’d like it to turn out good. I think there are likely some decent people working at Quantic Dream who deserve to have their efforts rewarded. Maybe it could serve as a blueprint for future titles from the studio and be the catalyst for a more positive work environment. It’s all wishful thinking at this stage, but I don’t see the use in spending that kind of development time on something if it isn’t going to address the foundational issues with their previous work. Thank you, I’m glad you enjoyed the video :)
ShyCorn: David Cage's dialogue is terrible Also ShyCorn: "If Quantic Dream one day decides to leave their auteur behind and come out of their Cage, I think they'll do just fine."
Okay using Mr Brightsight at the end of the video is pure genius. Ending the video with the claim that quantic dream would be better off if they freed themselves from David Cage and then following that up with the lines “Coming out of my cage and I’ve been doing just fine”… Chefs kiss
I can totally appreciate a different perspective on the game, I wouldn't want to actively tell someone they're wrong for enjoying a game they played. I still think these games can be worth playing as long as you go in with the right expectations, but that's just my opinion. Hopefully you enjoyed the video and want to stick around for future ones!
@@ShyCornwas a good watch for sure. I haven’t personally played Fahrenheit or beyond two souls so can’t comment on those. I played around an hour of heavy rain before stopping as it felt incredibly silly. But Detroit is just such an excellent game if nothing else then at least in presentation. The art direction, character models, animation work, cinematography of many scenes and the excellent score really help it shine. There’s a few silly sequences but for me the good vastly overshadows the bad I didn’t really find the racism stuff offensive at all, a bit silly sure but nothing that made me wanna stop playing lol. Cage just needs another writer in the room with him to tone down some of the goofy stuff if it conflicts with the narrative, I don’t have any hope for the future though considering their star wars game is apparently in development hell. All I’d want is a Detroit sequel but like a hundred years into the future. I do hope they’re able to explain their technical prowess at events like GDC because Detroit still looks breathtaking today and easily on par with current gen games.
When I tried to watch my friend play Detroit Become Human, Marcus' sections were so heavily racism allegories that I couldn't watch. For someone to throw in basically every conception about how racism manifests and then give Marcus the ability to basically turn other robots woke... it was so uncomfortable, and Cage's flip-flopping on if the racism allegory is there or not (denying it in interviews, but promoting the game during BLM??) made it impossible for me to enjoy the games. I don't doubt there's good things in there, but they're so mired in Cage's shitty beliefs that it's hard not to notice it when playing.
@RubenGiles-x4j you're saying "deep" like it's hidden. It's not. You can actively make the symbol of the robot resistance a black power symbol and the catchphrase "I have a dream." It's absolutely supposed to have that meaning, but David Cage backpedalled, probably because of people like you who think video games are somehow unable to make any kind of commentary.
@@ShyCorn I don’t think he can but it might be slightly better than what we got. What we got is that - Shelby blatantly lied the player in his inner monologue, instead of something interesting like…being an unreliable narrator. Shelby could have some insane rationalization since the beginning, dropping the clues to the player that something feels really off about this guy, until the end when it fully revealed that he’s the killer and all those clues in his inner monologue could make sense once the player recontextualize the whole thing. But somehow David Cage just made him a hero (even in his own thought) the whole game then switched to the villain in the 11th hour. It’s lazy writing. - Meanwhile, if we look at Madison, everything makes sense if she’s the killer. There’s something really off since her first chapter. She has a recurring nightmare, she somehow has way too much investment on the Origami killer case (even before she met Ethan) and she seems to always be at the right place in the right time (like the mission that she helped Ethan evade cops). She also has an access to Ethan’s personal life (even his c*ck depending on choice). These could be great set ups for the revelation in the end that she’s the killer thanks to some traumatic childhood that caused her nightmares but nope, those nightmares led to nothing and she’s mainly there to be sexualized by every other character (and by that, I meant David Cage). - There’s no way Scott could be the killer, because in the powerplant mission, if even a skinny and athletic Ethan still found it hard to crawl inside a small tunnel (and don’t forget the broken glasses along the way and the dead guy inside that), how did a diabetic obese Shelby managed to crawl inside that same tunnel and sprinkle the glasses in the first place? And you know who would be very comfortable in this limited space? Madison Paige.
@@ShyCorn If I was David Cage, I would have removed the character of Scott Shelby altogether (because he’s redundant) while making Madison the Origami killer and the main storyline will be about Ethan’s paranoia whether he should trust Madison or Norman. Norman remains the same. He’s a cop who’s obsessed with this case to distract himself from drug addiction and he has to do a tug of war with both Blake (because Blake thought that Ethan is a killer while he didn’t) and Madison (because she took advantage of Ethan’s distrust of cops to make Ethan feel paranoid of Norman while Norman tried to help Ethan from the grasp of the real Origami killer like her). And about Madison, if David Cage insisted on sexualizing her, he should have gone all the way, not half-assing it to maintain her “strong female character” facade like what we got. In my fanfic, I would give her origin story like this Thanks to her mother’s untimely death (probably of some illness), young Madison had to live with her drunkard of a father. One day she stumbled into the flooding manhole (like in the actual game) and cried for her father’s rescue, but this time, she didn’t die. She was saved by someone else who’s not her father. That someone else turned out to be some kind of pimp or a pdfile who preyed on young girls (like I said, if Cage wanna sexualize her, do it all the way by including it in her backstory). Madison got imprisoned inside this creep’s house and got SA’d for years. She became more spiteful and angry at times because she realized that her father didn’t bother to find her at all. He just left her to die in this creep’s house because he’s a drunk loser. At some point, she killed the abuser, burned this house down, and changed her identity into Madison Paige. About her career, I don’t think a journalist fits this backstory. I think I will make her a sex worker (effectively remove both Scott and Lauren from this story) thanks to years of being sexually assaulted by the abuser. She rose through ranks and gained so much money by sleeping with rich socialites, millionaires and gang leaders like Paco (which explains how did she get so much money to pay for those Origami killer traps in each of Ethan’s missions). Then she started her crusade as a vengeance against neglectful fathers by becoming the Origami killer. The reason she targeted Ethan because in this story, Ethan actually failed to save Jason. His son slipped from his grasp then got crashed by a car outside the mall BEFORE Ethan found him (unlike what we got which was Ethan was actually successful in saving Jason. He even used his own back to shield Jason from a slowing car. David Cage just forced Jason to die, no matter how nonsensical it was, for the sake of drama). Ethan’s wife then divorced him thanks to his negligence and he had to spend the next 2 years to make things right with Shawn. Madison then used this opportunity to kidnap Shawn to test Ethan and see if he can redeem himself. About her encounter with Ethan, since Madison was a former sex worker, I think she will get on Ethan’s good side very easily by seducing him. This could become a test for Ethan as well and I will do some little tweak to improve the story - Madison was always at the right place at the right time to save Ethan. In the real game, she helped Ethan evade the cops after Ethan cut his finger off because she REALLY cared about Ethan. But in my story, she helped Ethan evade the cops because she wanted to make sure that Ethan completed all the missions without the cops’ interference. This is how easy it is to make the script make sense. - That sex scene with Ethan? In the real game, it’s just to show Madison’s boobs which ruined Ethan’s character because at that point of the story, it was a race against time to save Shawn so why did Ethan waste his time to bang some side chick? But in my rewrite, this was deliberate from Madison. It was a test outside the main mission to see if Ethan was actually committed to saving his son. If he refused to bang her, that means he passed the test and would be on time for the final mission. But if he chose the bang her, that means he failed the test and reinforced Madison’s idea that Ethan is as hedonistic and neglectful as her drunk trash father and this will cause Ethan to be late for the final mission and Shawn’s survival will now solely depend on Norman. If Norman failed his mission, didn’t tell Ethan or died beforehand, then Shawn is 100% dead thanks to Ethan’s succumbing to lust during this race against time moment. And of course, if Ethan passed the test, then Norman’s death won’t affect Shawn that much because Ethan would still be on time to save his son. And because I gave her a very tragic backstory, I would like to give her some kind of redemption arc as well. Did you notice that in the real game, there is ZERO possibility of Scott getting arrested? He will either get away with his crimes or die brutally. Madison will get her redemption arc. If Ethan was successful at saving Shawn, Madison will realize that Ethan has proven her wrong so she might end up turning herself and confess her crimes. In case she was sentenced to death, if Ethan ended up getting her pregnant in one of the endings, the execution could be delayed until she gives birth to their child then she will beg Ethan to take their child as his own, giving the kid last name “Mars” instead of “Paige” to protect a kid from social stigma of being a child of the Origami killer. Then Madison could die in peace knowing that her kid will be raised by a good father while Ethan is now given a chance to start a new life with this kid.
I never liked David Cage' "creative" decision except some bits, but he also known to hired writers without properly crediting them, sooo ... here ya go
There’s definitely some high quality elements to it, from the graphics to certain characters’ acting, but largely I don’t think it should praised as highly as it is.
90% of the praise is because of Connor. Genuinely, you do not see any fans of Marcus or Kara, but you will see so much Connor fanart, fanfics and cosplay.
@@CodPatrol No??? They didn't say that at all, it's just clear that a lot of people like Connor. You see a lot more Connor cosplayers and fanart, Connor fans are just seen more.
Great video, you summarise what's wrong with things without completely trashing all of the game. Also, i came here from tiktok. I hope for more out of context clips that blow up
I’m really glad to see people hopping over here from there! Thank you for the kind words! I should start exclusively posting out of context clips and just see what happens
I have theory that David Cage was the guy who was made fun for loving videogames growing up. Thus he made its mission as adult to finds way to elevate his hobby in a way that would give his inner self immunity. And by consequence, I think the result has actually made him look instead like a guy who deeply hates videogames. Which I believe really reflects in the way he approaches gameplay. All his games play the same!!! its all the same with an upgraded coat of paint. Period. End of story. Which is ironic for a guy who supposedly "likes video games, and believe in their potential" He is not really interested in exploring any others forms of gameplay from the one who has shown in his past games. Which I think is also connected with the way he approaches story and always going for the over dramatic. I bet my life that is you where a playtester for David Cage and you gave the feedback that "I want the game to be more fun" he would spit at you. (or call you the F slur!) Which would tie with my theory he actually is a wounded person copping, basically "if I couldn't had fun playing my videogames, none of you will! now here is Madison Page getting raped" Honestly fuck this man. I think he needs to go to therapy and maybe leave gaming, he clearly cares more about filmmaking so do that instead. We don't need more people in this industry that do not respect games and gamers.
Continuing the defense: About buying a robot child, why are you so shocked ? It's nothing new, it's been done before. And the abuse was clearly done in secret, because if he had to lie about how Kara broke, why would Alice be different ? As for "Heavy Rain" plot twist, I admit I expected Ethan to be it, too, but I can understand why Sheldon was the chosen one, since his scenario kinda feels like a dive into his psyche. Oh ! And I didn't have a problem with Maddinson and Ethan, because I never followed the ship through. The priority in the story was Shaun, why would I choose that path ? Personally, while I do prefer the chronological mode and wished more branching, I'll admit as a fan of fragmented structures stories, I can see what they were going for, so I wasn't bothered. Still, I do condemn Cage's behavior; I still don't understand the "dialogue awkwardness" everyone keeps talking about. Where is it ? I'm pretty sure Cage is exploring the concepts you speak of in a fantasy lens, not necessarily to reflect the real world perfectly. Androids are a fictional species. Their issues will be unique to them too. That it parellels real life people seems to me like a coincidence.
I have yet to play Dustborn but I believe Quantic Dream only acted as the publisher for it. Either way, I hope more people help put the spotlight on Cage moving forward so there can be some real improvements in company culture and the industry at large.
Despite these problems you cited with the games, and besides all the hate stuff, I like these games as I still consider them great, despite their flaws. Heavy Rain is my favorite Quantic Dream game, and one of my favorite games of all time.
Off topic, but a streamer that I watched introduced me to Fahrenheit, and let me tell you, I was not ready for how astoundingly bad the 1 on 1 fights were. Lucas was doing those multiple backflip moves you see gymnasts do, and when he fought the death eater looking thing, the slap fight that came out of it was hilarious.
Beyond: Two Souls was actually one of the first video games I ever played, and definitely the first "grown up game." Keep that in mind when I say I absolutely loved it. It was easy to learn the controls, I cared about the characters, and I loved the story. I still struggle to understand some of the critiques of it. The pacing issues were definitely there and I didn't love that it was out of chronological order, but it was clear enough the rough order things were in. I didn't mind the false choice issue because I found the story engaging enough anyway. I liked that I could figure out how I wanted to get the destination, even though the destination was the same. I was still figuring out a controller at the time so I didn't hate that it was pretty much "push this button here," I liked the story, I don't know how else to put it.
What I find infuriating about the "Alice actually being an android the whole time" twist is that they could've made it interesting if they went down that route. I'm sure there's a moment when you're with the woman and the son that help androids, you're able to talk to Alice and she kind of alludes to keeping her android self a secret and worries that Kara wouldn't love her if she knew she wasn't human (since Kara just conveniently forgot everything lmao). I think child characters are often overlooked when actually giving them good characterization. All too often they are reduced to being the annoying brat that the main character has to look after and babysit constantly JUST because they're a child. If they actually spent more time fleshing Alice out as a character, getting to know her better then perhaps the twist would be better received because when the time it comes around, we've come to really like Alice and now its a question of: does Alice being an android really matter? Except what we get is exactly the snot-nosed kid we're used to getting and the twist just falls further flat on its face because the child we've been minding for Kara's entire story isn't even a real kid. Alice should have stayed human.
Thank you! I wanted to limit this video to games I had personally played, but I could always play Omikron down the line and revisit this topic after the new Quantic Dream Star Wars game releases as well!
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In my opinion, the peak writing from David Cage was when in one of Heavy Rain’s endings, Shawn died so Ethan and Madison went to his grave, then Madison gave a sympathetic and thoughtful comment that
“I know both of your sons died horribly and everything that you have built your entire life has crumbled into nothing but since I’m still here, you can still make another baby with me.”
Then Ethan just straight up offed himself😂. What an ending.
That’s honestly such an accurate and concise way to describe Cage’s writing abilities, or lack thereof.
Character assassination 101 so out of Character for Madison
@@MarkelScott100 There was one?
@@revol4372 somewhat even though she is kinda one note somebody whos been through trauma would ever say that to someone lost his son it was so out of touch
Ain't no way
"As a writer, it's your job to make sure your characters are as important as the scenes you put them in. If you make something that can be left out and the entire story is the same or even better, you should leave that part out."
-My high school creative writing teacher
Cage should have attended that class
It's great advice for writing something compact or very expensive to produce like a 2hr movie, short story, novela, skits, expensive tv shows... But you can afford to stall in longer form media: novel, long running series, many video game genres. Moderation is key.
Especially for video games the market standard has switched to games with A LOT of optional content with narrative attached that contribute nothing to the larger narrative. Cage's genre is not that though.
this rule that I learned from filmento (my fav movie critic)
every kara part in detroit
For real though, Bryan Dechart’s and Clancy Brown’s backs must HURT from carrying Detroit Become Human
Exactly. I would have killed for a game where those two are the center.
idk. Hank's character isn't perfect either. He changes his views on androids way too quickly just by two androids from the Eden Club. I mean I enjoyed Markus story, with the whole android uprising and having choices effecting all of Detroit (even Markus with Carl, gave me good Life is Strange vibes, coming from someone who doesn't like Life is Strange). For me Kara's was the weakest story.
They aren't the only quality aspect of the game but they are the best part in terms of writing/character
@@darkus5618 I mean, I don't think anyone disputes that the writing is meh, I think it's mostly the characterization overall, because Dechart does nail that wholesome Connor that turns into a vicious hunter very well, and Mr Krabs is Mr Krabs, he just nails it every time.
@@code_renard Yeah the relation with Connor and Hank is something everyone loved.
Tbf about the whole “buying a child just to abuse” thing, it’s pretty crazy how many foster parents are abusive. I’m not sure that’s the allegory he was going for but that’s the first thing that came to my mind. Why are you able to foster a kid just to abuse them?
I completely agree with you there. Though, if Cage is going to bring in such a sensitive topic he should have a rock solid reason as to why it enhances the story or experience, rather than leaving players unsure of why he introduced it in the first place only to never elaborate.
That doesn't really work, cause a) in many places foster parents get benefits and/or money for taking kids, which does lead to some of them only ever caring about that...
b) they could be taking them with a "they will be my retirement plan once they grow up, nothing more" mentality. It's sad how many parents all over the world still view parenthood in that way. And none of those 2 reasonings really make sense for having an android kid (if anything you'd lose a lot of money to get one)
it’s not just “buy i child to abuse”, who thinks this is very close minded, he wanted to replace the family that he lost his wife and daughter by buying two androids, but the thing is that he wasn’t mentally good + half hated androids
Don't some people foster and then be abusive because they get support payments from the government to look after the kid? You don't get a robo child tax credit. At least I assume you don't.
Probably they got allowances for adopting a kid ? It may be that too, you get money packed with a personal house keeper / punching bag or whatever, some persons could find it interesting
For the game with an android, it must be expensive as heck, what a waste of money!
I remember when Bryan Dechart was on a panel and mentioned when he told Cage his favorite line in the entire script was “I like Dogs.” He got annoyed.
Like Mr. Cage, my man, don’t shoot the messager. You had full control over the script and direction, you could have gotten someone else
Those three simple words did so much to humanize Connor, I don’t know why he’d be mad
@@ShyCorn It’s a perfectly sweet line! Of course Bryan would like it, he’s so weird
Because David Cage hates any substance of writing or character development that he is unable to write and instead writes what he thinks is "good" in his head
His games are saved by great actors. Clancy Brown carried Detroit: Become Human for me.
The acting in Detroit is really good, you’re right
So did Sam Douglas and Pascal Langdale for Heavy Rain and Elliot Page and Willem Dadoe for Beyond Two Souls.
@@nont18411 Elliot xd
@@WilkSzary0 yes, elliot.
Honestly, i really like Bryan Decharts performance as well
The Connor & Hank stuff is genuinely well written in my opinion. I couldn’t care less about the other two storylines but the detective storyline was something special for me
I really liked their story in spite of the larger context around it
It definitely is! But something to keep in mind is that many of the interactions and iconic moments between Connor and Hank were due to the chemistry and IMPROV between their actors, something that Cage had no part in / was sometimes a hindrance about.
@@Rikrobat Yeah to add on, Cage was apparently very hesitant and pushing back with most of the improv scenes, and the actors would straight up just do them anyways even if he said not to. Unsurprisingly, all of those moments happen to be the best parts of the game lol
@@galaxywizard8904 Jfc, he's such a trash director if he finds the chemistry between actors to be problematic to work with. It's funny too with how apathetic Connor is (imo) between the other leads, he comes off as the most human in both performance and actions. If Dechart or Brown had chosen to fallen in line, the game would've come out a whole lot different and as soulless as Beyond Two Souls and Heavy Rain. Both those games have that issue where it's so jarring and unnatural with the behaviors of the actors, which is all the more reason why it's ironic that a game about robots has a better emotional core, even with its flaws.
@@lifeisadrag7705 Tbf, if you've seen the behind the scenes for these games, designing and recording all the branching paths looks like a logistical nightmare. If someone says something not in the script and no one catches it it could ruin the whole story, so I get why actors improving might stress him out. Also I dont think it's fair to say the game would be soulless without the improv lines, the acting was really good across the board compared to Heavy Rain, massive improvement imo.
I remember these TH-camrs had a David Cage Bingo card anytime they played his games. What caught me off gaurd was the r@pe space which was always hit allowing them to win Bingo every time.
Yeah Cage isn’t exactly subtle with the way he implements those scenes, or really any scene at all for that matter
May you be thinking about Super Best Friends? I still have that bingo card printed out next to me on my desk here
@@HamazuraGOD sounds like something geek remix would have done back in the day
@@rogerhouses5204
That must be it. I only now just realized OP was talking about games _plural._ My example only did it for Detroit
Who cares. Lots of anime and Japanese videogames do this. To a greater degree
I cannot remember where I saw it but someone had a clip of a couple guys failing every single QTE in the Heavy Rain chase where Norman is in the market. It was maybe the funniest thing I've ever seen in a non-Bethesda game.
It’s linked in the description!
You should see the missed qte from Spiderman 3 if you're into that sort of things. The faces in them are hilarious!
Never seen a proper video about this dude despite hearing about him for over a decade. I’m here for this.
I hope you like it!
The twist in Detroit: Beyond Human of the girl being an android isn't just a severely messed up situation with deeply questionable moral and ethical implications for the world building (which is being VERY generous) but the thing that really strikes me is how the twist actually undermines Cage's own narrative and misses the mark on a deep, morally complex issue - the very thing Cage purports to be pushing in his games.
Kara's journey is a compelling one: a robot makes a choice to protect a girl despite it basically being beyond her programming. Without the twist, it actually raises an interesting quandary about whether robots can discover free will, whether they can learn to care for others which, assuming that they develop real emotions rather than simply 'learning' to care, means that they became as irrational as their creators. In short, the question of 'can a robot love a human?' is a question with a lot of power to it and a lot of relevance to the real world.
But then we get the twist and all of that disappears. It's so frustrating! You had a chance to make a real statement or, at the very least, raise an interesting question and you blew it!
Cage does that so often it’s just absurd
I was so disappointed by this twist. The story was fine as it was, with Alice growing up in Canada with Kara by her side, watching her grow up and being a good influence on her. Now there is no point. There's also no point in having an android child who obviously would never grow up.
I remember Yahtzee bringing up that very point in his ZP video about the game. Really mindblowing how Cage can take a good story and ruin it all for the sake of having a twist it didn't need.
A prime example of having a plot twist just for the sake of having a plot twist. It's almost impressive how badly he fumbled that. Accidentally had something good going and went out of his way to ruin it
@@may___021 thats david gage for you 🤦♂️
Now everyone can understand why people reacted positively to the Star Wars Eclipse trailer, until the quatic dream logo shows up at the very end…
As much as I hope Star Wars Eclipse is good, I share the same doubts as everyone else. Thanks for watching! It would be a huge help if you can share this video around online!
Quantic Dream is such a "wasted opportunity" studio. I feel like everyone instinctively knows what is the appeal behind their games ...... except them ? Why is it that regular rogs like Baldir's Gate or Dragon Age are better at keeping track of your actions and having them matter despite how open ended they are compared to an otherwise linear game with occasional points of divergence ? I feel like it's be easier to write this type of stuff for this type of linear games where there are only a handful of moments where the story could diverge than it is for an expansive rpg where you must take into account that the player might kill off a character at a random point ? Because Quantic Dreams games barely ever have any impact to your choices, which is super weird.
When a god damn Red Hood animated movie is a better interactive game than your own even though you have two decades of experience in this industry, you fucked up big time
@@sephikong8323 That's because Heavy Rain SHAUNNNNED so that Disco Elysium could roll, but also because Cage probably thinks gamers are idiots.
Star Wars went woke a long time ago. Most of us would of disliked it even without Quantic Dream. Don't say "everyone"
Fine.
The *"majority" of star wars fans that i saw* posting reaction videos to the internet watching the Eclipse trailer enjoyed what they were seeing (not gameplay, buy just visuals that they could fill in the vast void in-between images with their own imagination)
- except for the video game players of the reaction vids, who upon seeing The Quatic Dream logo at the end, were clearly dissatisfied because all of their imagination was replaced with feelings akin to everything stated in this ShyCorn video: sexist, surface-level, shock drama flaunted as artistry.
And personally, I prefer products go woke and explore other perspectives, im probably not gonna change on that (Id sooner become a contrarian, and push back for pushing sake).
Rey couldve been better then another luke skywalker clone doing the same thing as 456 - what sucks is disney assassinating lukes character in 8, then banning mark hmail from projects as seen in AI voiced luke (as opposed to hiring pro voice actor hamil to voice himself). Plus blacklisting Finn's actor for similar comments.
In my country we have a saying “a spoon of tar in a barrel of mead”. Which means that small amount of something bad can ruin big amount of something actually good.
I feel like David Cage is that spoon of tar.
I like that saying, I think you’re right
I'm stealing that
Don't forget that, according to Cage, there is no intentional theme around tackling racism within Detroit Become Human
As a writer it’s his job to be intentional with the stories he creates, and it would be irresponsible of him not to recognize the parallels regardless of whether they were intentional or not
@@ShyCorn yeah, if he was a good writer he would be doing that
ANDROIDS IN THE BACK OF THE BUS
Except he willingly mad the shit parallels where beings literally created by us who can't defect unless modified to are totally like black slaves and immigrants to rile up people then denies all of it to not get flack for it
@@darkdude521 Insert Rose, a black woman telling Kara something along the lines of, "My people went through something similar." As she helps her escape like an android abolitionist to Canada
In regards to Cage's homophobic remarks, do you think the scene in 'Detriot: Become Human', where the two female androids fall in love, was done by the team in spite of Cage's views, or do you think that he only holds a grudge against gay men, as he doesn't fetishize them like he does with lesbians? Either that or he's trying to save face.
Honestly, the thought had crossed my mind, but I didn’t have any sources to cite on the matter. There’s always the potential that other writers were involved or potentially had more control during Detroit’s development than they had in the earlier QD titles.
He's french, so he probably gets off to women kissing - which makes it ok to him.
I think the scene aligns perfectly with his homophobic views bc "two sexy women fell in love" still very much plays into male fantasies. Sexualization of lesbians is actually a very common form of homophobia towards women
@@UtLured Yeah I can totally see that being the case
While I completely understand saying it's mere sexualization of lesbians (as a lesbian) I think the other devs damage control on that scene was making the Tracy's talk about the sexual exploration they faced @@UtLured
"Oh no, I made ze bad gaem." - David Cage (probably)
Genuinely, it's kind of ironic that the most enduring aspects of David Cage's games are either stuff that he had no input in (such as Bryan Dechart's performance as Connor and how he and Clancy Brown adlibbed a lot of the best moments of that campaign) or directly make fun of him (like Press X to Jason, or the old SBFP series on his games). He's not Kojima, he's not Taro, he's not Murray, hell he's not even Molyneux, as that implies he made something genuinely nostalgic. Despite all his rage, he's still David Cage.
That opening alone makes this my new favorite comment
"Despite all his rage, he's still David Cage." Dude you didn't have to go so hard lmao
@@ShyCorn And this video alone makes this my new favourite channel.
@@roach590 Ah, thanks, though I'm still not convinced that line is my own creation. I just don't know where I got it from, though. Maybe from an old Stephanie Sterling video, back when she really ragged on David Cage?
Then you’ll be delighted to hear your new favourite channel is releasing another video today
There's one thing Cage did that really was quite impressive, the demo for Become Human showcased specifically the part of a the game where a young girl is attacked by her father and that scenario was portrayed believably enough that lead to many people engaging in discussion as to whether including such stories in interactive media was too much. One of the specific points in that discussion was that even if that's not a real person in real danger it's simply unacceptable to simulate that in an interactive manner. Anyone who has played the game will know that girl is the one revealed to be a robot, people reacting as they did to cruelty against a video game character who is also in their own world not a human or even a biological entity poses interesting questions as to what counts as human, how far from humans can the idea humanity be extended and what rights non-human even non-living things should have. Setting that up and knowing exactly how it would play out is kinda genius and really worth pondering.
Too sad that game bad.
That's a really good point! But you're right, it's just another instance of an interesting idea being squandered by Cage.
I would understand this discussion if it was a real robot similar to those we see in sci-fi or animals. But a video game character is just some lines of code. So, unless I'm getting your point wrong, it is kind of stupid to ask whether or not it should have rights, should a music box have rights? or a cleaning robot? Off course not. What counts as humans is what is human. And living things should have rights because they are alive and get to suffer from people's actions.
The reason why people feel that way is because they're roleplaying in an immersive experience, they're treating that entity as if it was alive for the sake of the experience. It's really simple.
@@ReverieJacket42 I would agree with this, and I would hate for video games to become "safe" to the degree where nothing confronting can ever happen for fear that someone somewhere may not like a concept. I'm not interested in being protected from myself or having my freedom in games curtailed. Games are one of a very few mediums remaining where genuinely free expression remains.
“Featured High quality voice acting”. Heavy Rain: SHAUN ShAUn shAUn and Origaarrrmi killer.
Alright you got me there
JAYsoN! JAYson! JAYson!
And the name Norman being pronounced as Nahman.
The problem with Alice plot twist is that established what already had been establiished in a game. Androids can love and care for each other. And If he look around Jericho when Marcus arrives we can find android kid who also was abused and we know that Josh or Simon where taking care of him.
This plot creates contradictions and havent explored new things it could have, and goes againts a great. A human and android dynamic. It could have show that kids of this world can grow up and respect androids that help to raise them. And It's hard to care for Alice when she's so blanck and annoing for no reason. Also the creppy question like, you can just buy an android child and abuses them? What if Tood was a p*dophile? This would have been even creappier! Is it like buying a doll with IA system? But is Alice even self aweare? Cuz her character is so poorly writen that I wonder if she is even a deviant.
This comment puts more thought into Alice’s story than David Cage did
honestly if they really wantsd a plot twist they could just make it so that we think the girl is an android but the plot twist is she isn't. could either have kara know or not, probably better if she does know and treats her the same.
The plot twist is just bad for the story. It's more thematically and emotionally effective for Kara to be caring for a human child.
@@eddardgreybeard all the androids playing the game must have been really upset
"What if Todd was a pdf?" He'd just get a kid himself to abuse like abusers do today. It's pretty common because It's a very easy way to satisfy their urges.
“If Quantic Dream one day decides to leave their Auteur behind, and come out of their cage. I think they’ll do just fine”
🔥✍️🔥
I’m so glad someone actually liked that line
This is genuinely a really great video. You pretty much managed to cohesively explain everything when it comes to the games’ strengths and weaknesses and what makes them divisive while also covering David Cage’s involvement in the productions and alleged behavior behind the scenes…in under 30 minutes which is crazy.
Thank you so much! I really appreciate it!
"i don't make games for ****"? does this man know what the fandom thinks of hank? does he KNOW what people think of markus and north??? I JUST KNOWWWWW HE HATED FINDING OUT ABOUT CONNER X HANK LMFAOOOOOO
RIGHT LIKE THOSE ARE SOME OF THE BEST EDITS TOO
@RubenGiles-x4j May 27th and May 28th of 2021 during a trial in Paris between Quantic Dream and media outlet Le Monde
I have seen people genuinely cite David Cage saying he intended Hank and Connor's relationship to be parental as a reason people shouldn't ship them
Imagine citing David Cage, I'm pretty sure Bryan Dechart ships his character with Hank lmao
So that's why we didn't get the Simon romance storyline we deserved
@@ethanlivemere1162frr simon and markus had so much more chemistry than markus and north. cage has a tendency to put couples with zero chemistry together just because they’re man and hot woman (jodie and ryan, madison and ethan, even scott and lauren for some godforsaken reason)
David Cage is the person that people who don't like Hideo Kojima think Hideo Kojima is.
Edit: not the anti-woke weirdos tweakin out under my comment that had literally nothing to do with whatever the fuck theyre talking about 😭😂
That’s a really good way to explain him
Facts
Theyre the same two autistic idiots who cant get their heads out their asses
bro got the 🔵blue🔵 comment⁉️
Elmo what are you doing here
I looove DBH, but there were so many missed opportunities in that game and the more I think about them, the more it pisses me off.
The game starts to feel so shallow if you think about the narrative for more than five minutes. Why are the androids deviated by Markus behaving like mindless bots? Why are all the deviants fine with their deviancy? Why is there just one deviant group? Why is there not the slightest philosophy discussion about deviancy? All these questions are about deviants only and don’t address any other major storylines, but they are enough to make the game feel shallow for me.
They really need some better writers, because from a technical standpoint they are already creating great games.
Cage is great at introducing really cool concepts and then never executing on them fully and/or effectively. Here’s hoping their next game turns out better.
"I've seen you in my dreams, you have to come with me" actual line from Lucas Kane in Indigo Prophecy after breaking into an orphanage and scooping up a random child.
David Cage you’ve done it again
That's hilarious, I should play it
I have a lot of issues with David Cage but I'll keep my comment limited to one. You can not drive straight in Detroit for three hours and still be in Detroit. Detroit is a city in Michigan David Cage not the entire state like you seem to think.
This is such a specific critique of Cage but you’re right and you should say it
grand rapids: become human
Heavy Rain - Flint Edition
Well to be fair the city could have drastically expanded in that future
Kalamazoo Become Human
Nice to finally know who this infamous mf is, a silent malevolent legacy
Bro found a thesaurus
The qte's in beyond two sould are the real problem for me. You can barely see which way jodie is moving her self in order to press a button.
Yeah I can appreciate them trying to keep the screen button-prompt free for a more cinematic feel but there’s gotta be a better way for them to telegraph things through camera positioning or something
"Sam Lake, you hack!" (affectionate)
"David Cage, you hack!" (derogatory)
Sam Lake they could never make me hate you
I'm gonna go on a rant tangent here because I hyperfixate so much about David Cage's games and mainly how female characters are treated in general.
I don't really know much about Indigo, Omikron or the other games but I'm gonna talk about Heavy Rain first. My main issues in the story and the game in general mainly revolve around Madison (and Lauren, but I'll get to her in a sec) and how she's treated as a character and by the narrative.
You might not know this, but Heavy Rain was first pitched to Sony with a tech demo named The Taxidermist. If that sounds familiar, it's because it got released as a DLC chapter for the PS3 exclusively. The Taxidermist is a Madison chapter that chronologically occurs after Ethan's coma. And you know what? It's absolutely fantastic. It's S tier, and it's the best thing David Cage managed to write. The Taxidermist covers themes of sexual horror, and is about Madison investigating a Taxidermist named Leland White, who she believes could be the Origami Killer. She shows up to his house but nobody's there, and she manages to break in through his back window. As you explore the house there's several amazing foreshadows and atmospheric storytelling that not many David Cage chapters have. As Madison goes upstairs, she finds a dead woman in his bathtub. And as she proceeds to his bedroom, she finds a shocking revelation; several female dolls who were human women victims taxidermied into dolls, dressed up in ominous fetish gear. Now... you might think Cage seriously messed up with this chapter, but quite the opposite. I'll explain why.
As soon as Madison takes pictures of the dolls, she overhears Leland coming home and entering his house. From there, we get a really interesting gameplay sequence of hide-and-seek, where several spots in each room of the house is available. Leland will go about his randomized AI routine until he spots Madison directly, hears a noise, or spots ANY signs of her presence. It's fucking insane and I love how detailed everything about the chapter is. Leland's behavior is extremely dynamic and there's so many options.
The first ending is Madison managing to escape the house without being noticed, she can sneak out from the upstairs window, the front door, or the garage.
The second ending is Madison getting spotted by Leland, which leads to a massive hyper-dynamic chase scene with several options as to where she can run, but the ONLY way for her to leave the house alive is either escaping through the garage door, OR chainsawing Leland alive (you'll notice that a trend with abusers in David Cage games is that their deaths are really ironic and poetic; Leland getting sawed with the very tool which he used to taxidermify women by another female victim) which both end with Madison driving off in her bike.
The third ending is Madison phoning her friend Sam (by the way, Sam is an amazing character who barely got expanded in the final game and barely has screentime) and asks him to call the police, and if she lasts long enough either by hiding or running, the cops show up and rescue Madison, arresting Leland.
The fourth ending has Madison dying. She has several death animations and different ways to die considering how many rooms exist in the house, but you know what the most interesting thing is? Her deaths AREN'T FETISHIZED. They're not gratuitous at all, which is really ironic considering what some other Madison chapters show us. If Leland kills Madison, we just see him dragging her off-screen to his bathroom, and the screen fades to black. It's all we needed to know.
Finally, the fifth ending has Madison dying, BUT, if she phoned Sam, the police will arrive just in time to arrest Leland, but also find her dead body. It's a sacrifice ending, pretty much.
Now... the Taxidermist is severely underrated and it shows that David Cage works best in small doses. A short chapter, an intriguing premise with strong narrative details, and several endings without any future link to the story, so it's much easier to write. This is David Cage at his peak, and it also proved that he IS capable of handling sexual horror without being gratuitous. Problem is, there are a few issues with the chapter. Mainly Leland's dialogue. It's too cartoony and over-the-top, but regardless, this chapter is amazing.
My real problems come with Sleepless Night, and the Doc. Let's start with the former. Madison originally was supposed to be a war journalist, and the strange masked men she sees in her apartment are Iraqi soldiers she's been traumatized by in the past. The reason why she only sleeps in motels is because she was USED to constantly being on the move and sleeping in different campsites. If she slept in one place for too long, that meant she would feel endangered, because she would be in danger. It's such an amazing explanation that got scrapped because instead of keeping that plotline, David Cage scrapped it. Hell, the intruders even had dialogue in Arabic shouting stuff like "GET HER!" and so on. But you know what? I think the solution to Madison's character is to instead, have the Taxidermist's dolls/victims show up in her nightmares and hallucinations. Have THEM attack and try to kill her, establishing she has survivor's guilt. It's psychological horror stemmed from a sexually horrifying premise, while not being gratuitous because the victims themselves are attacking her. If Madison's story was more Taxidermist-focused, then she could've been so much better. Sadly, the chapter didn't make it to the actual story draft, and it's super overlooked. Sleepless Night is just one goofy ass action scene with fetish fuel content.
The Doc. I'm so, so mixed on this chapter, because I actually do like the message it tries to convey. Don't trust creeps. But the thing is, it feels like such a cheap copy of the Taxidermist chapter. There's barely any endings or variation, and it feels like Madison doesn't really have too much control of what happens, which, while it's the whole point of an power struggle between an abuser and a victim, it feels oddly sexualized and sexist. I don't have a problem with The Doc being a creepy n3croph1liac character, because while it's disgusting, it's some kind of characterization. My main issue is, Madison's deaths are pointless and gratuitous. Where is the moral lesson here? The abusers win? Like, we literally see 20 seconds of a deranged lunatic groping a woman's dead body. It's even worse if you don't escape the chair because The Doc canonically visualizes the drill as a phallic symbol, which makes the scene 5000x worse. In my opinion, Madison should've automatically escaped the chair, and in all of the deaths in this chapter, it NEEDS TO BE a double kill scenario. It could 100% work, and it would be poetic justice, and actually tragic, because Madison dies taking down her abuser, in this case. I like the fight scene itself, but the choreography is TOO extra sometimes, and the fact Madison always has to play dead and bait SA JUST for her to win, even though she's properly able to beat the shit out of the doctor (she slashes him 5-6 times with drills, hits his face with a hammer and beats him up with a shovel, and you're telling me she HAS to play dead???) because in the Taxidermist, we didn't have this issue. Madison didn't have to play dead or do a cheap trick with fetishized undertones to kill an abuser that was three times her size. She just revs up the Chainsaw and does it. It's quick, and it's right to the point. I think she should've just been able to drill him in the stomach while she got tackled to the pillar, I mean, she literally was still holding onto it.
Okay, the doc's chapter was horrible, but Smexy Girl is the WORSTTTTTTTTT UGHHHHHHH it's literally so ass. The only good thing about it is the music, but the fact we get to see Madison being HELD AT GUNPOINT TO STRIP FOR A P1MP AFTER SHE NEARLY GETS SA'D AND KILLED is just awful. You know what else could've fixed this? Instead of The Doc relating to Paco, why not just relate to John Sheppard himself? SO THEN, Madison could meet up with Lauren and Scott at the cemetary!!! It would've been PERFECTTT!!! We were robbed.
Speaking of robbed, Lauren is also extremely robbed in the game. Her ending was cool and all, but the fact you can leave her to get beaten up by an abuser (YES SCOTT CAN DEADASS JUST WALK AWAY) and how she's sexualized in the story in a fetishy way (oh. and also the scott/lauren romance is disgusting. im glad she can shoot his ass)
Now... a side tangent as I end my rant, I think Stormy Night is also one of the greatest things Cage designed. But it suffers from the same problem that The Doc does. It's too gratuitous, even if Alice is an android. But still, the buildup from A New Home to Stormy was so good. The choreography, the message, and the music was really fantastic. Too bad the rest of Kara's story after Zlatko's amazing chapter just really falls down.
I think you put it best, Cage’s writing only works well in small doses. It’s part of why I used the footage from the Kara tech demo. It was a really powerful video, and a small slice of what, at the time, could have been something larger. But only when he tried to expand the concept into a full game do the cracks really start to show.
Ain't no way im reading all that
@@corniel657 sucks to be use. It was cool.
*you
@@corniel657 Well you missed out on some super interesting info. Get that attention span fixed.
Finally someone's addressing this! I've played Fahrenheit and dubbed it "The Room" of video games, then sometime after watched a let's play of Beyond Two Souls only to become reassured in my feelings about Cage.
I was honestly debating cutting that portion of the video since I wasn’t sure if it would resonate with the more modern Quantic Dream audience. I’m really glad to see someone call attention to it in the comments, I appreciate that!
The games, particularly D:BH for me, feels like what a person imagines a "deep" and "meaningful" story without actually exploring any themes. I look back to D:BH and the thing I enjoyed the most about it is actually what it became in the fandom.
The sheer amount of quality DBH fanfic out there is a testament to what authors can create when motivated by spite.
19:04 personally, i dont think it was ACCEPTED to abuse android children. I dont think anyone even knew todd ever abused alice. More than likely, nobody even knew he HAD an android child. He doesn't seem the type to have friends or talk to neighbors.
Nobody else in the game ever says anything about her being an android insead referring to her as "a child with an escaped android(kara)" only luther brings up the fact she's not human. She might've been a not very popular model given that no human ever brings it up, and we only see 1 other "alice" model in the game at jerico . Plus i assume MOST people wouldn't buy a $900,000 child android to raise just to abuse them (at least not when you can just kidnap a child for free, if were gonna get REAL dark abiut this)
Or, kidnap a android child for free
I think the point was that child-model androids are a thing in the world. The implications are disgusting lol.
@@snowballeffect7812Yeah but we all know that that’s something that would 1000% definitely happen in the real world too.
I don’t particularly like or hate Cage’s work, but I never like any implication of “censoring” something (especially not an artist’s work) because it depicts something we don’t like.
@@gergopahollo I highly doubt child-model androids would be a thing. Like even child-model s**-dolls are extremely rare. I don't think I've ever seen one that someone else did not build personally. No one is suggesting censorship. We're just saying Cage is a hack and a trash person lol.
@@snowballeffect7812 I dunno man, I can definitely see some famously amoral corporations pull something like that, although I prefer to think the rest of the world would be unified in drawing the line there.
What I meant by the censorship stuff is that to me it came across in the video as suggesting "Cage shouldn't have written the world to be like that" which is the part I don't agree with. I mean... I'm sure more talented writers would make better use of that setup, but in and of itself, I think just the idea of what would happen if somebody did release child androids and the moral implications are an interesting thought experiment, and we shouldn't shy away from difficult topics. Although if I misunderstood and the emphasis was on *Cage* shouldn't have written this... yeah, then my bad, 100% agreed.
Can you really imagine the black community of the Detroit Become Human universe being okay with robots being sent to the back of the bus? It's kind of exhausting how many ways that dumb game sticks its foot in its mouth. From a bastardized version of the civil rights movement, to domestic violence, to crossing the border, and wildly, concentration camp imagery. The game has absolutely nothing to say other than "thing bad ¯\_(ツ)_/¯".
Incidentally, if you want a story that actually explores what it means to be human in a scifi setting, you should check out Mars Express. It's kind of a similar premise, but far more fleshed out with some really cool ideas!
edit: Apologies for forgetting to say so, but great video! I look forward to seeing your channel grow!
I’ll have to check out Mars Express! Thank you for the recommendation and for watching! I really appreciate it :)
Yeah, no, this is a really unaware thing to say. As a Black woman, I see my folks literally abandon Black lgbtq people as if they are another species of us that we have no responsibility to. And not only in action, but in the language we use. How quick we are to remove them from matters of Black protection and liberation cause "gay people have more rights." Completely removing their Black identity cause of their sexuality or gender. People are willing to support an undeniably racist individual as long as they say they "don't like all this gay stuff being pushed on us" and that they love Jesus. Folks quite literally praise the deaths of Black trans women because "that's what they get for tricking people." One of the things I always found the most interesting about DBH was the depiction of all sorts of marginalized people treating another being like people treat us simply because that thing is the new "subhuman." People do it all the time to their own folks because a lot of people don't actually want change, they want a chance at being the oppressor and having that power over another person. And it's a sad truth we as Black people see way too often from colorism, texturism, homophobia, demonization of African spiritualism, etc.
In general I'd say yes, people generally don't care if another group is oppressed, as long as they are not the oppressed themselves, in fact, they tend to actually relish it when they can be the oppressors themselves ESPECIALLY if they are not the most well off themselves as this gives them a good cop out. Like, look at the Jim Crow era in the South, most of the people doing the worst things to the blacks weren't whites in positions of power, it was those that were disenfranchised themselves, so I really don't think that the poorest blacks would object at all about Robots being treated like garbage as that would give a good punching back for many of them
I was so frustrated that the only argument heard in the game against androids is "They're taking our jobs!" What about the fact that humanity is basically using the disconnecting and dehumanising effect of technology to LARP slavery? No one in the world had anything to say about the dark implications of creating something that looks and sounds exactly like a real person, but which you're allowed to treat like an object? Granted, that might be veering towards "Video games make people violent" territory, but it would have made sense to hear people in this world having that opinion.
I mean I did question that part. Figured you'd have more black ppl actually help deviants. Only Rose was sympathetic. Even her son was an asshole.
And there's an awful lot of non black ppl speaking for us on that topic. Not appreciated.
That scene where Ryan leaves could be fixed so easily --- Ryan just has to ask if he should stay or go & Jodi should have the choice to explain or not or just tell him what she needs in that moment. It's just gross when you get these moments where your own player immersion is jettisoned bc David Cage won't let you leave his gaze & you become aware your choices are all limited by David Cage's eye/POV, esp when he treats people like objects.
It's telling that there's an interview with Connor's actor that basically reveals Clancy Brown & him improvised against David Cage's will, & lots of the interplay the audience liked was developed by the actors deliberately ignoring the direction Cage was giving.
It's also interesting that multiple Japanese directors of games (Vagrant Story, MGS series ofc as mentioned in the vid, Parasite Eve, etc) who are supposed to be hugely influenced by cinema, too --- even in cases with trope-y women characters --- nevertheless feel like they treat their stories + characters with so much more care + attention + consideration while still touching on heavy subjects. Cinema isn't what's afflicting Cage. & it'd be great to see QD create something & succeed with another leader.
Nice Killers riffy cover at the end. Great video. Thanks.
Well-said, I agree. While I don’t have any hard evidence to back it up, I wouldn’t be shocked to find that the glimmers of good writing there are in Quantic Dream’s games, barring the improv from the actors, were sections of the script that either went untouched by Cage or other writers fought hard enough to keep things the way they originally wrote. Bryan Dechart is an incredibly professional individual, so to see him share that publicly in an interview really does show just how much friction Cage brings to these productions. Glad you liked the song! Thank you for watching!
@@ShyCorn I've seen a lot of good Cage critique & you really are saying new things about him, taking a broader view, & I appreciate you recognizing the talent in the studio. You really captured the tension between fascination with what QD is doing, the moments that pull you in, versus the ham-fisted Cage parts that alienate the player from the material. I'm really glad you talked about it. You add to the conversation.
I wish I could remember where I saw Dechart say that, so I could cite it properly --- it was clipped from a primary documentary into critique, there was full context, & he was sheepish about it, but he was clear Clancy went rogue & encouraged Dechart in his acting to follow him; & I'm familiar with Brown's career/technique so it's very believable. The interview ran in between footage of them in mo-cap suits running their buddy cop scenes, so you could see the evidence of them working on improvisation while he talked about Cage hating their improvisation. Which is pretty funny when you realize Cage wants to be cinematic, but doesn't have a sense of the craft of acting + how to nurture those performances. Ofc what happened to Elliot Page shows that carelessness in a much less funny way. I'd never heard that part before, thank you for adding that context.
That cover/mix was great! Arrangement 11/10 too; I came back to check your info box for it bc it stuck with me.
So basically the best part of Detroit Become Human (Connor and Hank) wasn't even written by David Cage? Makes sense lmao
It bothers me so much when people complain about choice-based games having limited choices. If you could make every possible choice you would never have a cohesive story. It's also just fully impossible to implement every single choice a person could make in a scenario because sometimes people make choices that don't make any sense. We can't account for that and it's unrealistic to expect developers to do so, plus it would be so damn expensive to implement.
At the end of the day, there's still some kind of story that is being told, and so yes, some choices are going to steer you in a certain direction. That should be a given.
It depends on the type of game. There are narrative driven games that require certain paths to be gone down, and by playing the game you are more or less agreeing to play that role. You're the captain of a pirate ship or the last princess of your society or whatever the game requires, and you have to be the hero because the writing depends on it. However there's plenty of room for emergent gameplay focused games which move the focus of the game to player choice and give you the maximum freedom possible. Not every game has or needs a strong central story, because players are quite capable of more or less creating their own in their mind as long as the game plays along and doesn't get in their way. But even in heavy narrative games its understandable that someone may get frustrated because they wish they could tailor their role. There is a strong future for AI adaptive games that learn about you and what you want to do and tailor the story to your needs.
I tend to only have a problem when the game advertises itself misleadingly. I’ve played games that give choices that don’t matter in relation to the plot, but I still find it enjoyable in a role-play aspect.
As long as I’m not being misled or lied to, I don’t mind my choices not mattering.
Little tangent if you can bear with me:
I have an emotional tie to TellTale’s TWD series (especially S1). Because of the issues I’ll detail below, the way the choices were handled in that series (in every TellTale game, really) made it so I couldn’t bring myself to play the final season.
I hate that they kept advertising that every choice you made is going to affect the story (apologizes if I used the wrong affect/effect, English is hard). As the series went on, I got less and less attached to new characters and the new stories.
Let’s move to another game: Miitopia. An incredibly silly (and cursed) Mii-based RPG. You have plenty of choices like your party’s personality, jobs, and even who plays the NPC’s. Plus, you get chances to choose from dialogue options. Other than flavor text and changes to gameplay (such as Quirks and Abilities related to personalities and jobs), nothing you do changes the story in any meaningful way. But I don’t feel like nothing matters. The point is to have fun role-playing, not that your choices matter
Honestly I would say DBH showed that it can be done. It had many impactful decisions, while still telling a coherent story. The writing still sucked, and there were many questionable choices that can probably be attributed to cage, but I don't think it had to do with it being a choice based game.
Great stuff man, solid and cohesive analysis. Keep it up, i love this stiff, just sorry i couldn't contribute more
Thank you so much!! I really appreciate it!
14:27 Holy shit one of the men who s*xually assault the mc in Beyond Two Souls is literally Todd from Detroit Become Human (I checked and apparently Chloe from DBH also appears in BTS)
How would Chloe appear in BTS cause androids didn’t exist in BTS
@@ShoobydoopThe actress for Chloe plays Kristen in Beyond Two Souls.
A friend of mine pointed out to me when Detroit become human came out that if you treat the story not as an allegory for racism but as one that talks about how resemblance to past fights can be used to manipulate future revolutions (kinda pointed out as a possibility by the ending that implies everything was orchestrated by the androids creator) it becomes interesting to say the least. Problem is that I don't think Cage is smart enough to have done that intentionally.
I completely agree on both counts. That’s a really interesting way to look at it, and Cage is nowhere near smart or talented enough to write from that perspective on purpose.
That's only revealed in one obscure ending that most people won't get until their like 4th play through
I'm gonna play devil's advocate only on two points:
1. The accusations against Cage saying nasty things about women and the LGBTQ+ community. Cage has openly addressed those comments and denied ever saying them. I rolled my eyes at that of course, because who _wouldn't_ deny saying such things? However, his entire team, many of whom are women and members of the LGBTQ+ community themselves, came to his defense and said they've never heard him speak ill of any marginalized group.
2. I also hated the Alice twist, especially the more I thought about it. Why create android children and allow them to be abused? But then I remembered that that _is_ the world we unfortunately live in. People enjoy hurting children, and the game actually does address this. It's why the two Tracis wanted to escape the brothel. Customers are allowed to violently SA the androids, and the androids are programmed to react to it in a negative way. It's sick, but it's exactly what some people would do... what some people would demand. And even more disturbing, you can find articles throughout the game saying that murder and rpe are down because people are using androids to get their sick kicks. I actually thought that was brilliant writing, showing the depraved nature of humanity. Depressing... but true.
@@eddardgreybeard
I think you forgot a few things. He bought Kara _before_ he was unemployed. Before his wife left him, in fact. Kara was the real Alice's nanny. At the very beginning of the game, when Todd picks Kara up, the salesman literally says her memory had to be wiped and rebooted. Todd said, "That's fine."
We also don't know when Todd bought the Alice android, but I assumed it was soon after his wife left him, perhaps to prove he was still a good father. Or perhaps Alice was bought as a playmate for the real daughter. We just don't know. That does seem likely, as there's a photo of the real Alice in the bedroom standing beside someone, but we can't see who. And why would Todd bother to correct Kara when she's supposed to care for Alice the same way she's supposed to care for a human? It was all a part of Todd's role play, which he basically admits if you let him live and run into him at the border.
Not to mention the game clues us in at the end, that Kara had been manipulating her own memories of android Alice, because her becoming a deviant tweaked something in her programming. Luther says this if he's still alive when you reach the ship. She wanted to be a mother, but only counted it if the child was human. It's even up for debate whether or not deviancy itself is a program.
@@eddardgreybeard
The twist wasn't at all a last minute decision. Everyone on the crew knew that Alice was going to be an android from the get-go. They planned it from the start.
Todd is very likely collecting some type of unemployment/welfare, which, if I remember correctly, you can see in his mail, along with several letters of resume rejections. Also, fixing androids doesn't cost anything. They're under warranty, which is mentioned several times throughout the game.
There's nothing wrong with not giving the audience absolutely everything. We don't need to know exactly how and when Todd bought Alice. There's enough information for us to plausibly fill in the blanks ourselves. It's absolutely not story breaking and, in most cases, makes perfect sense.
Every android has zero needs, yet Markus makes some of the most ridiculous demands, like androids getting paid for their labour and the ability to own property. What do they need money and property for? There's charging stations all over the street. That's literally all they need-electricity, which is provided by the city. The whole point of the game is that they want to be treated like humans, even though they're not. They don't have the same basic needs, even though they want to act like it. In my opinion, that's much harder to contend with than Todd letting Kara feed Alice. Does he strike you as someone who cares about wasting money and food? He doesn't even know which way's up half the time. And again, that could've been Kara altering her own memories.
Alice is for the audience _and_ Kara. Luther asks her, "Does her being an android change anything?" And depending on how the player feels, depending on how the game has impacted them, they can decide through Kara yes or no. You can do the same with Connor, who can, depending on the player's decisions, go on believing that deviants are faulty androids.
Of all the things to criticise in DBH, this would be the last on my list, especially since it's established early on that Kara is an unreliable narrator, and little hints are dropped throughout her segment that Alice is an android. I figured it out for sure at Rose's house, for example.
@@eddardgreybeard im actually not against the twist. even though i think it would’ve been better if alice was a human, i think her being revealed as an android allows kara to further explore her “maternal instinct”, and shows that she loves alice for *who* she is, not what she is.
One of the funniest thing about DBH was the in game questionaires result that were heavily rigged towards pro android/machine like "would you let robot raise your kid" or "would you romance robot that looks like human", but the most obviously rigged one is the "who's your favorite character" in which marcus won by a landslide while Connor is the least favorite one. Of course after a while, their position changed but it is still funny that this is david cage idea of "subtle" propaganda lmao.
I think the questionairehas changed overtime because I've seen Connor first and Markus last. Markus first is kinda crazy though.
This video deserves way more views. A very well put together, high quality, video
I really appreciate that, thank you!
I really appreciate your take on this, I've always said that David Cage's games always felt like the first draft rather than the "complete story". Specially breaks my heart with Heavy Rain as I'd dare say I have an emotional connection to the game, yet I can truly see the very big flaws it posseses.
This is my honest take as to how Heavy Rain could have been improved.
(Spoilers ahead)
It'd be great if the 4 main characters all had the possibilites to be the Origami K*ller. Of course it would be one of them, but the player would need to find out on his own who it might be, and if he is wrong, there'd be consequences in regards to it (Possibility of losing Shaun, lost time, clues aren't enough so the player would struggle more with finding Shaun, etc.)
Reasons for the 4 main characters possibly being the Origami K*ller:
-Ethan: Ethan could be a suspect on Jason's passing, Jason could pass away on "suspicious circumstances" (I am not sure how this would develop, but I think it'd be a good idea), Ethan is a prime suspect on Jason's passing and before the game takes place he'd be questioned and looked into by the police, therefore being on the police's radar already. The blackouts that were removed from the game could make the player suspect further, alongside some paranoid doubt that Ethan could show about having no self control when he has these blackouts. But, he could be a loving parent towards Shaun that seems to show genuine concern towards his disappearence, therefore making the player doubt.
-Scott: We would learn the same backstory seen before later on in the game, however, we'd have a harder time piecing together the fact it's Scott due to the psychological display Scott could show that doesn't match the k*ller's motives, dates that wouldn't match, etc. Therefore making the player doubt Scott. Scott could still be the k*ller, and maybe, whilst playing as him, could see him put the dirt on the 3 characters or Kramer, in order for us to clear him as a suspect, via us saying "Oh, he is right, how didn't I catch that?" And after this, the investigation could get even tougher or there would be a consequence.
-Madison: I am honestly not sure how we'd go on about her possibility of her being the k*ller (She is THAT one dimensional). This is made up stuff in my head that isn't said in the game, but it could be an addition that kinda makes sense. Maybe she could display contempt towards males due to past SA or some trauma in regards to males, therefore it'd make sense for her to target boys, since targeting grown males would imply physical strength and more work, also possibly could have the motivations to find a "good" man acting like a father to his kid, adding onto the fact that she has done risky things or downright negative stuff in order to gain some sort of recognition as a journalist due to a career in the brink of not being there due to her lack of content as of late (Often doing things in order to make herself appear to be the hero). The player could assume for this to be the case, but the romance she'd have with Ethan would make the player doubt if this was the case (Whilst talking with Ethan, the player could see the fact she feels empathy towards Shaun, doesn't know important details surrounding the case, etc.) If the player doesn't choose to have a romance with Madison, it would be a harder task to discern if she was the k*ller or not.
-Jayden: Jayden could be part of an organization that could make the player suspect that he might have had something to do with Shaun's disappearence/FBI funding the Origami K*ller phenomena to gain something from it. This idea is a bit incomplete in my head since it'd require more analysis, but I'm thinking about Jayden as a pawn in a "Hidden Evil" or "Conspiracy" way, if that makes sense. The tripto usage would make the player doubt that Jayden would be the k*ller.
This is very disorganized thinking on my part, and I might come back to this in order to modify things and present my ideas better.
They’d definitely run the risk of losing the plot even further with the scope expanded that much, but I think it would have been an insanely cool way to encourage replaying the game. Being able to have a semi-random murder mystery play out each time through is such a cool concept.
@@ShyCorn Thank you for your words! I appreciate your kindness. Yeah I truly don't think Quantic Dream is ready for such expansion as of yet but it'd be awesome if they expanded.
I think your video is very focused and well put together. You covered a lot of stuff in a short amount of time, with specific examples. Nice work!
Thank you! I’m trying to find a good pace for these videos moving forward. Hope to see you in the comments of my next one!
I literally finished replaying Detroit yesterday and i must admit that i really like it, despite its *obvious* weaknesses. Especially the performances of Clancy Brown, Bryan Dechart and Neil Newbon are really good in my opinion...
Edit: i didn't know about that part with the shower scene in beyond two souls..... yikes.
Amazing video! I was really anticipating a Omikron the nomad soul section, Cage at his worst. The SBF playthrough is a work of art
Thank you so much!
As someone who initially liked Heavy Rain when I first played it; I've really grown to dislike how dirty Madison Paige was done, which sucks because I thought she was the most likeable.
They set her up to be this no nonsense journalist who's plagued by insomnia but remains vigilant in her investigation, which is even more insulting considering she's either objectified, sexualised or victimised in almost every situation she's in. Plus the fact that there was an option for her to get with Ethan felt completely contrived.
She had potential to be a really interesting character but was written incredibly poorly and it sucks
more people shitting on Cage makes me miss SBFP every day.
It’s been years since I’ve heard that name
Lord if I don’t miss em, but understand every reason they ended and won’t get back together. Least we still got Super Castle Beast
1:09 What the hell is this clownery?! Movies are literally about being passive observers. Games have always been the opposite as you're an active part of them, even if there's no RPG choices you'll still infinitely feel more immersed by games by nature
so keen for the dulcet tones of my favourite corn man to be my background noise for the next half hour
I offer new dulcet tones weekly now
I just love when new video hating on Cage gets released
Thank you for watching!
I literally can’t hear David Cage’s name without immediately mentally hearing Jim Stephanie Sterling’s Day-vehd Caaahhhggggggge.
I really liked these games, But i do agree with all of your points. I remember thinking some stuff was really off when playing them. I will always enjoy these games as just fun little movies I can mindlessly watch, but I feel like they could've been better with more attention to the theming and other stuff. Great Video!!!
Thank you so much! I'm glad you enjoyed the video. That seems to be a sentiment shared in the comments here, these games are better off if you don't think too hard about them. Maybe one day we'll see a Quantic Dream without Cage and their games can fully explore ideas with confidence rather than staying surface level.
Fahrenheit is the first? Are you ignoring Omicron on purpose?
I also disagree. A game should not "reflect the values and culture" of its creators. A game has only one goal it needs to fulfill: be a *good* game. The team behind it, their "values and culture", are irrelevant. When a clock works you appreciate the clock, not each gear within. When you buy a meal, you don't ask the Chef for the backstory on every ingredient of the meal. If the meal is good, the meal was done right, end of story. David Cage is whack tho.
I always found Detroit Become Human to be weird because it's implied very heavily that the android revolution was purposely done to elevate the importance of CyberLife or the androids creator, and that they don't actually have any free will. This would make the games plot actually interesting, but, it feels more like an easter egg for if you make rare enough choices, and it definitely seems like something beyond what David Cage is capable of. I do hope they manage to finish that star wars game they got greenlit for, it seems like a strep in the right direction, since it contains actual combat gameplay allegedly.
For sure, that would’ve been a really interesting idea to delve deeper into, but Cage can’t really do much beyond surface level with anything. For the sake of the other developers at the studio, I really want Star Wars Eclipse to do well.
Look, DBH's writing is... *unique,* to say the least, but what you're saying is categorically not the case.
Kamski is implied heavily to have *purposely* let the possibility of revolution happen, but it wasn't specifically in service of making Cyberlife more important, nor was the implication of THAT anywhere near "their free will isn't real."
Deviancy exists because Kamski *let it happen* and even built the RK200, aka Markus to specifically make it more likely that an android rights revolution would happen.
Arguably, there are implications that he *wants* the Deviants to win, though if they fail, he decides to step back into his previous role and "do things better."
Tbh, Kamski is confusing, and with the cut content around him, he's even more enigmatic than he frankly should be. But the man's almost got something of a god complex, and he was clearly ready to play either side depending on things went down.
In short, no, he didn't fully intend on Deviancy losing and no, deviancy itself wasn't fake, it was real.
Actually, the objective seems to be to have androids replace humans as the dominant species.
"Hey everybody, let's do a David Cage Twist!" - Yahtzee Croshaw
I think it would have been AWESOME If Detroit had an evil deviant Android because being a human is not just sunshine and rainbows! Some mf's are just EVIL and that makes them no less human. Imagine an Android becomes Deviant and realizes Androids are capable of the same evil and destruction as humans and even better at it so that character despite being deviant chooses to side with humans and destroy not only deviants, but all androids including himself.
Would have been a fire storyline.
I think that’s partly what some of Connor’s story was trying to achieve, but having a character like that offer slightly more blatant contrast to the rest of the cast, and to do so as an NPC so the story can be more easily controlled would have been an interesting narrative choice
@@ShyCorn Yeah and it would have been ESPECIALLY great if Jericho thought that android was just a machine programmed to act like that and at the end of the first half of the story Markus attempts to turn him deviant and realizes that he WAS a deviant the whole time. Would have been a better twist plus that would have raised the question: "what it really means to be human and alive?"
Indigo prophesy starts out as an interesting murder mystery/psychological thriller
By the end of the game: Dragonball Z
Ethan’s power level is over 9000
NOOOOO NOT CONNER FROM CYBERLIFE
Don’t worry I actually like Connor from CyberLife, just not David Cage
Once again, awesome work Shycorn - I love your perspective
I appreciate your perspective on my perspective
I still rmemeber being absolutely flabbergasted when Indigo Prophecy turned from murder mistery into straight up Matrix with the scene where Lucas runs from the cops, i stopped taking the game seriously then and there
It’s so hard to take any of Cage’s games seriously at this point
I seriously believe indigo prophecy had potential in the first half
While I’m hesitant to call someone Sexist & Homophobic because these labels have been hastily slapped onto people like it’s new Gen slang without substantial evidence, that one sentence about what David Cage thinks of all women and how he speaks homosexuals is unarguably clear. No wonder the only females with significant screentime in his games that aren’t sexually assaulted or prostitutes are an AI that converses with Connor, an android mother, and a little girl, which strangely enough, also ends up being an android. These games’ narratives do have meaning alright, but only when he can sloppily show his deplorable views on any complex topic that requires nuance.
Remember North in Detroit Become Human? She was an ex-prostitute android, but she was always on the verge of arguing & against everything Marcus was doing, despite being the “Love Interest” of Marcus. That would’ve been fine if it was a result of her trauma, but that would’ve required scenes to drive home that trauma. Instead, we get a chat about it and that’s it, because David Cage didn’t care about giving a plot purpose, he just wanted to show another example of how he sees women, and it’s disgusting
I think what could have fixed this is give Marcus and North more onscreen development before almost immediately jumping into being lovers when it makes no sense when North has done nothing, but disagree with Marcus. Heck, they could have had scene where North is having traumatic moment and Markus tries to help her overcome it, by saying something like "You don't have be this way.". I understand that trauma can never truly go away and its a long process on how you can heal and learn to live with it. Maybe they could have her show progress in her character, the more she spends with Marcus and realize that there is more to humanity than just bad and then eventually fall for him. In tragic example, if Marcus dies while romancing North, they could have scene where North is heartbroken over losing Marcus and expresses that she started to see goodness in life thanks to him, but all that died once he died and all she has is nothing, but apathy towards humans.
The idea of child androids made me so uncomfortable and I'm glad I'm not the only one. Seriously, what a stupid twist.
I think if a story is going to approach an uncomfortable subject it needs to have a point in doing so and be written effectively so as to justify writing about it in the first place. Cage is the wrong man for this job given his penchant for introducing would-be interesting plot devices or heavy subject matter without anything else to back it up and no intention of exploring beyond surface level. But as others have pointed out it is also a stupid twist for the reason that it undermines Kara’s entire emotional arc of “can an Android truly love a human?”
The best & worst part about these games is if aspects were fleshed out, even just a bit more, these wouldn't be that big of issues.
It's shown that time in-game goes by fast in Heavy Rain, with Ethan being home with Shawn early on. But because we don't see any other implications like that, the scene where the twist is supposed to happen falls flat. Because no one would catch onto that.
I think there’s two main aspects that would drastically improve the quality of the experiences if they were fixed. They need to expand on plot elements and themes rather than simply introducing them with nothing to actually say about them, and they need to handle sensitive subjects far more carefully overall.
19:09 this. i think people who praise cage's games lack critical thinking whatsoever. plotholes, poor writing, questionable (artistic(???) decisions, lack of player agency. yet some still praise him.
"I can't breathe, but I am alive" - Marcus sometimes
David Cage always had a slimy demeanor and air of pretentiousness. I'm not surprised by the allegations.
23:25 all of this, while played over the scene from DBH that personally ive never been able to play past (gotten friends..) really highlights why he let that scene go on for so long, be so integral, and why if you do nothing it just seemingly gets more graphic
Going through all of the footage for this video showed just how often Cage puts women in his games into these situations. There were so many other scenes that just wouldn’t have fit on the timeline.
Part of why Beyond Two Souls is so frustrating is the concept was actually pretty original and intriguing, and the acting from Elliot Page was goddamn *immaculate* but the writing and execution was...excruciatingly bad. I really have to wonder what that game would have been like had it been written by someone with competence.
As an old, old fan of the Zaibatsu, i will forever be here to slander the sad man and his sad games.
Welcome to the fold, happy to have you here
Quantic Dream's next game is Star Wars Elicpse, announced back in 2021. Reports claim that the game will be released in 2027. People have since called on Disney to revoke the Star Wars licence from Quantic Dream because of David Cage and the studio's history of hostile workplace reports. How do you feel about their Star Wars game? Great video, mate.
I’d like it to turn out good. I think there are likely some decent people working at Quantic Dream who deserve to have their efforts rewarded. Maybe it could serve as a blueprint for future titles from the studio and be the catalyst for a more positive work environment. It’s all wishful thinking at this stage, but I don’t see the use in spending that kind of development time on something if it isn’t going to address the foundational issues with their previous work. Thank you, I’m glad you enjoyed the video :)
ShyCorn: David Cage's dialogue is terrible
Also ShyCorn: "If Quantic Dream one day decides to leave their auteur behind and come out of their Cage, I think they'll do just fine."
I had to commit to the bit so I could use that song at the end
Okay using Mr Brightsight at the end of the video is pure genius. Ending the video with the claim that quantic dream would be better off if they freed themselves from David Cage and then following that up with the lines “Coming out of my cage and I’ve been doing just fine”… Chefs kiss
Thanks!
alright that outro was the perfect amount of cheese, extremely good and informative video
I’m glad to hear you liked it! Thank you! Hope to see you in the comments moving forward :)
15:29 never got to that point i ruined dinner way before
Detroit is peak tbh no matter what
I can totally appreciate a different perspective on the game, I wouldn't want to actively tell someone they're wrong for enjoying a game they played. I still think these games can be worth playing as long as you go in with the right expectations, but that's just my opinion. Hopefully you enjoyed the video and want to stick around for future ones!
@@ShyCornwas a good watch for sure. I haven’t personally played Fahrenheit or beyond two souls so can’t comment on those. I played around an hour of heavy rain before stopping as it felt incredibly silly. But Detroit is just such an excellent game if nothing else then at least in presentation. The art direction, character models, animation work, cinematography of many scenes and the excellent score really help it shine. There’s a few silly sequences but for me the good vastly overshadows the bad I didn’t really find the racism stuff offensive at all, a bit silly sure but nothing that made me wanna stop playing lol. Cage just needs another writer in the room with him to tone down some of the goofy stuff if it conflicts with the narrative, I don’t have any hope for the future though considering their star wars game is apparently in development hell. All I’d want is a Detroit sequel but like a hundred years into the future. I do hope they’re able to explain their technical prowess at events like GDC because Detroit still looks breathtaking today and easily on par with current gen games.
When I tried to watch my friend play Detroit Become Human, Marcus' sections were so heavily racism allegories that I couldn't watch. For someone to throw in basically every conception about how racism manifests and then give Marcus the ability to basically turn other robots woke... it was so uncomfortable, and Cage's flip-flopping on if the racism allegory is there or not (denying it in interviews, but promoting the game during BLM??) made it impossible for me to enjoy the games. I don't doubt there's good things in there, but they're so mired in Cage's shitty beliefs that it's hard not to notice it when playing.
@RubenGiles-x4j you're saying "deep" like it's hidden. It's not. You can actively make the symbol of the robot resistance a black power symbol and the catchphrase "I have a dream." It's absolutely supposed to have that meaning, but David Cage backpedalled, probably because of people like you who think video games are somehow unable to make any kind of commentary.
Madison Paige should have been the Origami Killer, not Scott Shelby. His motivations made no sense.
I think it could have been an interesting twist, though I don’t know if Cage would have pulled it off nearly as well as it would need to be
@@ShyCorn I don’t think he can but it might be slightly better than what we got.
What we got is that
- Shelby blatantly lied the player in his inner monologue, instead of something interesting like…being an unreliable narrator. Shelby could have some insane rationalization since the beginning, dropping the clues to the player that something feels really off about this guy, until the end when it fully revealed that he’s the killer and all those clues in his inner monologue could make sense once the player recontextualize the whole thing. But somehow David Cage just made him a hero (even in his own thought) the whole game then switched to the villain in the 11th hour. It’s lazy writing.
- Meanwhile, if we look at Madison, everything makes sense if she’s the killer. There’s something really off since her first chapter. She has a recurring nightmare, she somehow has way too much investment on the Origami killer case (even before she met Ethan) and she seems to always be at the right place in the right time (like the mission that she helped Ethan evade cops). She also has an access to Ethan’s personal life (even his c*ck depending on choice). These could be great set ups for the revelation in the end that she’s the killer thanks to some traumatic childhood that caused her nightmares but nope, those nightmares led to nothing and she’s mainly there to be sexualized by every other character (and by that, I meant David Cage).
- There’s no way Scott could be the killer, because in the powerplant mission, if even a skinny and athletic Ethan still found it hard to crawl inside a small tunnel (and don’t forget the broken glasses along the way and the dead guy inside that), how did a diabetic obese Shelby managed to crawl inside that same tunnel and sprinkle the glasses in the first place? And you know who would be very comfortable in this limited space? Madison Paige.
@@ShyCorn
If I was David Cage, I would have removed the character of Scott Shelby altogether (because he’s redundant) while making Madison the Origami killer and the main storyline will be about Ethan’s paranoia whether he should trust Madison or Norman. Norman remains the same. He’s a cop who’s obsessed with this case to distract himself from drug addiction and he has to do a tug of war with both Blake (because Blake thought that Ethan is a killer while he didn’t) and Madison (because she took advantage of Ethan’s distrust of cops to make Ethan feel paranoid of Norman while Norman tried to help Ethan from the grasp of the real Origami killer like her).
And about Madison, if David Cage insisted on sexualizing her, he should have gone all the way, not half-assing it to maintain her “strong female character” facade like what we got.
In my fanfic, I would give her origin story like this
Thanks to her mother’s untimely death (probably of some illness), young Madison had to live with her drunkard of a father. One day she stumbled into the flooding manhole (like in the actual game) and cried for her father’s rescue, but this time, she didn’t die. She was saved by someone else who’s not her father. That someone else turned out to be some kind of pimp or a pdfile who preyed on young girls (like I said, if Cage wanna sexualize her, do it all the way by including it in her backstory). Madison got imprisoned inside this creep’s house and got SA’d for years. She became more spiteful and angry at times because she realized that her father didn’t bother to find her at all. He just left her to die in this creep’s house because he’s a drunk loser. At some point, she killed the abuser, burned this house down, and changed her identity into Madison Paige. About her career, I don’t think a journalist fits this backstory. I think I will make her a sex worker (effectively remove both Scott and Lauren from this story) thanks to years of being sexually assaulted by the abuser. She rose through ranks and gained so much money by sleeping with rich socialites, millionaires and gang leaders like Paco (which explains how did she get so much money to pay for those Origami killer traps in each of Ethan’s missions). Then she started her crusade as a vengeance against neglectful fathers by becoming the Origami killer.
The reason she targeted Ethan because in this story, Ethan actually failed to save Jason. His son slipped from his grasp then got crashed by a car outside the mall BEFORE Ethan found him (unlike what we got which was Ethan was actually successful in saving Jason. He even used his own back to shield Jason from a slowing car. David Cage just forced Jason to die, no matter how nonsensical it was, for the sake of drama). Ethan’s wife then divorced him thanks to his negligence and he had to spend the next 2 years to make things right with Shawn. Madison then used this opportunity to kidnap Shawn to test Ethan and see if he can redeem himself.
About her encounter with Ethan, since Madison was a former sex worker, I think she will get on Ethan’s good side very easily by seducing him. This could become a test for Ethan as well and I will do some little tweak to improve the story
- Madison was always at the right place at the right time to save Ethan. In the real game, she helped Ethan evade the cops after Ethan cut his finger off because she REALLY cared about Ethan. But in my story, she helped Ethan evade the cops because she wanted to make sure that Ethan completed all the missions without the cops’ interference. This is how easy it is to make the script make sense.
- That sex scene with Ethan? In the real game, it’s just to show Madison’s boobs which ruined Ethan’s character because at that point of the story, it was a race against time to save Shawn so why did Ethan waste his time to bang some side chick? But in my rewrite, this was deliberate from Madison. It was a test outside the main mission to see if Ethan was actually committed to saving his son. If he refused to bang her, that means he passed the test and would be on time for the final mission. But if he chose the bang her, that means he failed the test and reinforced Madison’s idea that Ethan is as hedonistic and neglectful as her drunk trash father and this will cause Ethan to be late for the final mission and Shawn’s survival will now solely depend on Norman. If Norman failed his mission, didn’t tell Ethan or died beforehand, then Shawn is 100% dead thanks to Ethan’s succumbing to lust during this race against time moment. And of course, if Ethan passed the test, then Norman’s death won’t affect Shawn that much because Ethan would still be on time to save his son.
And because I gave her a very tragic backstory, I would like to give her some kind of redemption arc as well. Did you notice that in the real game, there is ZERO possibility of Scott getting arrested? He will either get away with his crimes or die brutally. Madison will get her redemption arc. If Ethan was successful at saving Shawn, Madison will realize that Ethan has proven her wrong so she might end up turning herself and confess her crimes. In case she was sentenced to death, if Ethan ended up getting her pregnant in one of the endings, the execution could be delayed until she gives birth to their child then she will beg Ethan to take their child as his own, giving the kid last name “Mars” instead of “Paige” to protect a kid from social stigma of being a child of the Origami killer. Then Madison could die in peace knowing that her kid will be raised by a good father while Ethan is now given a chance to start a new life with this kid.
Heck, she's had insomnia and nightmares before in the narrative. That could have been a good opportunity to show flashbacks and reveal her motives.
Remember everyone: gameovers are a failure of the game design.
14:18 yo! Is that todd from Detroit: being human? You won't find your andriods in that bar, todd.
Ngl playing “Mr. Brightside” at the end went pretty hard lol
I’m glad you enjoyed it!
1:56
“They featured high quality voice acting…”
“JAYSSSSSSUN?! JAYSUN?!”
I never liked David Cage' "creative" decision except some bits, but he also known to hired writers without properly crediting them, sooo ... here ya go
I was unaware of him not crediting writers, that’s awful
It still baffles me how well liked Detroit Become Human is.
There’s definitely some high quality elements to it, from the graphics to certain characters’ acting, but largely I don’t think it should praised as highly as it is.
90% of the praise is because of Connor. Genuinely, you do not see any fans of Marcus or Kara, but you will see so much Connor fanart, fanfics and cosplay.
@@0uttaS1TE There is fans of Markus, just not fanboys. Are you trying to say he’s not a good person?
@@CodPatrol No??? They didn't say that at all, it's just clear that a lot of people like Connor. You see a lot more Connor cosplayers and fanart, Connor fans are just seen more.
@@0uttaS1TE no? kara was my favorite character and storyline. you can’t just make assumptions like that
Man, I love these games and their stories, lol.
Great video, you summarise what's wrong with things without completely trashing all of the game.
Also, i came here from tiktok. I hope for more out of context clips that blow up
I’m really glad to see people hopping over here from there! Thank you for the kind words! I should start exclusively posting out of context clips and just see what happens
This video arrived just in time for the Quantic Dream Sale on Steam!
I have theory that David Cage was the guy who was made fun for loving videogames growing up. Thus he made its mission as adult to finds way to elevate his hobby in a way that would give his inner self immunity.
And by consequence, I think the result has actually made him look instead like a guy who deeply hates videogames.
Which I believe really reflects in the way he approaches gameplay. All his games play the same!!! its all the same with an upgraded coat of paint. Period. End of story.
Which is ironic for a guy who supposedly "likes video games, and believe in their potential" He is not really interested in exploring any others forms of gameplay from the one who has shown in his past games. Which I think is also connected with the way he approaches story and always going for the over dramatic.
I bet my life that is you where a playtester for David Cage and you gave the feedback that "I want the game to be more fun" he would spit at you. (or call you the F slur!)
Which would tie with my theory he actually is a wounded person copping, basically "if I couldn't had fun playing my videogames, none of you will! now here is Madison Page getting raped"
Honestly fuck this man.
I think he needs to go to therapy and maybe leave gaming, he clearly cares more about filmmaking so do that instead. We don't need more people in this industry that do not respect games and gamers.
4:30 Larian: Hold my beer.
Continuing the defense:
About buying a robot child, why are you so shocked ? It's nothing new, it's been done before. And the abuse was clearly done in secret, because if he had to lie about how Kara broke, why would Alice be different ?
As for "Heavy Rain" plot twist, I admit I expected Ethan to be it, too, but I can understand why Sheldon was the chosen one, since his scenario kinda feels like a dive into his psyche. Oh ! And I didn't have a problem with Maddinson and Ethan, because I never followed the ship through. The priority in the story was Shaun, why would I choose that path ?
Personally, while I do prefer the chronological mode and wished more branching, I'll admit as a fan of fragmented structures stories, I can see what they were going for, so I wasn't bothered. Still, I do condemn Cage's behavior;
I still don't understand the "dialogue awkwardness" everyone keeps talking about. Where is it ?
I'm pretty sure Cage is exploring the concepts you speak of in a fantasy lens, not necessarily to reflect the real world perfectly. Androids are a fictional species. Their issues will be unique to them too. That it parellels real life people seems to me like a coincidence.
Can't believe it took dustborn to everyone to pick up on this guy 😂
I have yet to play Dustborn but I believe Quantic Dream only acted as the publisher for it. Either way, I hope more people help put the spotlight on Cage moving forward so there can be some real improvements in company culture and the industry at large.
@@ShyCorn quantic dream basically said they were in support of dustborn which made everyone resurface stuff from this weirdo
Despite these problems you cited with the games, and besides all the hate stuff, I like these games as I still consider them great, despite their flaws.
Heavy Rain is my favorite Quantic Dream game, and one of my favorite games of all time.
Off topic, but a streamer that I watched introduced me to Fahrenheit, and let me tell you, I was not ready for how astoundingly bad the 1 on 1 fights were. Lucas was doing those multiple backflip moves you see gymnasts do, and when he fought the death eater looking thing, the slap fight that came out of it was hilarious.
I can't believe the man behind those 3 games is no different than Original God of War director, HOLY SHIT
Thank you for sharing this horrific story.
I’m glad I was able to shed some light on the stories surrounding him, thank you for watching
tell me about the original GoW director, because I love the new ones and never played any of the old ones.
Beyond: Two Souls was actually one of the first video games I ever played, and definitely the first "grown up game." Keep that in mind when I say I absolutely loved it. It was easy to learn the controls, I cared about the characters, and I loved the story. I still struggle to understand some of the critiques of it. The pacing issues were definitely there and I didn't love that it was out of chronological order, but it was clear enough the rough order things were in. I didn't mind the false choice issue because I found the story engaging enough anyway. I liked that I could figure out how I wanted to get the destination, even though the destination was the same. I was still figuring out a controller at the time so I didn't hate that it was pretty much "push this button here," I liked the story, I don't know how else to put it.
What I find infuriating about the "Alice actually being an android the whole time" twist is that they could've made it interesting if they went down that route. I'm sure there's a moment when you're with the woman and the son that help androids, you're able to talk to Alice and she kind of alludes to keeping her android self a secret and worries that Kara wouldn't love her if she knew she wasn't human (since Kara just conveniently forgot everything lmao).
I think child characters are often overlooked when actually giving them good characterization. All too often they are reduced to being the annoying brat that the main character has to look after and babysit constantly JUST because they're a child. If they actually spent more time fleshing Alice out as a character, getting to know her better then perhaps the twist would be better received because when the time it comes around, we've come to really like Alice and now its a question of: does Alice being an android really matter?
Except what we get is exactly the snot-nosed kid we're used to getting and the twist just falls further flat on its face because the child we've been minding for Kara's entire story isn't even a real kid.
Alice should have stayed human.
I love the video!
I love the comment!
Great video mr corn but I wish you brought up Omikron too, since it's the real first appearance of a lot of his directorial issues
Thank you! I wanted to limit this video to games I had personally played, but I could always play Omikron down the line and revisit this topic after the new Quantic Dream Star Wars game releases as well!
Dude…Press X to JASON is the most powerful moment in video game history…