Yeah I noticed a long time ago after I recently became a Mormon that there's racism in the LDS church and have experienced about probably three times. Last yeah I left the LDS church as well.
Sadly, I would be willing to bet if you went to talk to the bishop and say I want to come back he would pull a huge book with all of your information still there. It's never gone 😭😭😭
Going to comment before you start show..My mother in law got quite the shock when she did ancestry dna and came back with about 25% African DNA..i asked her how she would have felt if she had found out before the ban was lifted..she could not seem to answer. Then I asked would her deceased husband have married her had he found out during the ban..I think she was so shocked by KNOWING for FACT there was NO WAY he would have..Made her REALLY HAVE TO THINK ABOUT how Her situation likely would have been completely changed..In the moment she realized how she would have been cast aside..eye opening for her especially considering how both her and her husband had still been spouting no mixing garbage clear up to his death..
Thank you for sharing. This is very interesting to me. Personally, I am not LDS. I’m not religious of any sort at all. However, I’m 37% Irish, 6% Ashkenazi Jew, and the rest is German/Scandinavian/Isles of the UK. Basically, I am as white European as I’ve ever heard of a person being. As much as I am white European, my ancestors still originated from Africa, moving into very East Asia/Eastern Europe, eventually settling in Western Europe. Banning people from anything, let alone their religion choice, is absolutely mind boggling-ly nonsensical to me.
This. It seems people don’t care about things until they can relate to them personally. The way I talk to members about the church’s homophobia is I ask them how they would feel if church leaders who they believed spoke for god told them that as a straight person they had to marry somebody of the same sex, and have sex with them and never have any straight relations ever in order to go to heaven. They think for a few seconds until the cognitive dissonance kicks in and they say something to the effect of “it’s not the same….”
I'm a former member of the Allred fundamentalist group. My biological father divorced my mom because he got a "revelation" that there was black blood through her family line. So she, along with all her kids were cursed. These teachings are so damaging, and I'm grateful to be out of that cult.
Sorry to hear that. Wonder why he didn't get the warning revelation before he got married and had kids. I don't really believe that a loving god would curse generations of people especially children.
That is sad. Religion can divide and even destroy families. John Dehlin has said something like "religion is a nice spice, but it can be a nauseating and even deadly main course.
I grew up in the sixties. We were absolutely led to believe that the prophets and apostles talked directly to God, Jesus, angels. Stories like that they would emerge from a room turned totally white and their skin and hair would gradually return color, proliferated. This direct contact was hyped as critical to the legitimation of the true church. It was also the civil rights era which even as a child caused me doubt and part of what led me to leave the church in adolescence.
This is so very important. I am one of the never-Mormon part of your audience. This is a very significant part of American history and a crucial part of our inheritance. We must continue to go forward with this. Matthew Harris thank you!
I'm curious if you have any idea about church patriarchs who have left the church. It would be interesting to hear their stories. Thanks for all your do.
I was raised in the Allred polygamist group where the ban is still in place today. I always struggled with their blatant racism but still went through their version of the temple. I found out after my husband and i left that I have black ancestors from my mother's side, who was adopted. Their powers of the priesthood failed to detect "the drop of black blood" for me and my mother. lol I embrace and appreciate my history. I am grateful we both made it out together. Thank you for what you do, John. This was a wonderful episode and I learned so much from you and your lovely guests.
I was a lady missionary in Brazil in 1974. We were told to not teach black people. We were advised that if we couldn't tell if they had black blood we should look at their hands to see of their palms were lighter than the tops of the hand. We were to politely leave if we suspected they were not all white. Also, after having my DNA done a few years ago I've discovered that I have 2% of sub Saharan African DNA. I'm almost alabaster white and you'd never guess my ancestry. This means I wouldn't have been able to go through the temple nor serve a mission. Sheesh. There was no way to tell who had black blood. I'm positive that there were a lot of long time LDS temple going members who had no idea they had black ancestry. What an ignorant, stupid ban. I left the church many years ago.
I descend from an African slave. We always suspected it, but DNA tests later proved it. The line is through my dad. Not a large percentage - Around 6%. Dad joined the Church in 1974. My parents were sealed in 1975. When I think about the priesthood ban, it’s so wild to think that if the church had known about my dad’s ancestry, my parents’ sealing would not have been allowed. For all the Church leaders pretend they were never racist, it’s hard to make that argument when you literally invented new ways to be racist.
I'm not sure after the fact the Church would have done anything. Back in the 1950s the Church let mixed blood South African males to be ordained if they looked white. At that time, the Mormon Church in South Africa had a "don't ask don't tell" policy.
I really appreciate all the work, guests, hosts, and comments! Despite leaving the church over 50 years ago, I find myself still deconstructing. Your podcasts have been life-changing!
I really, really, really like this guy! I love the way he tells all these stories - no anger and whining, just respect. I am buying the book and will buy more as Christmas presents!!!!
When I first heard about this, I was way too permissive of that policy. I constantly made excuses for the behavior of so many men I considered to be prophets. Deep down though, I was pretty disgusted with the men who enacted the policy. After I left the church, I revisited things like this. Now, I look at it as an inexcusable policy. The guys in church behaved in such a disgusting manner. It constantly haunts me that I was a part of such a terrible system that hurt so many. More recently, I came to understand just a little bit how members of color feel about this. I was born with a disability called Metatropic Dysplasia dwarfism. I was a member of the church for my entire childhood. My dad told me something he heard from David O McKay concerning people with disabilities. He told me that McKay said that I was born that people like me were born with our conditions because we were less valuable in the “pre-existence”. Hearing that comment, I came to understand what it must have felt like to be devalued by the church when you truly believe in it. So many believed that they were abominable because the “prophet” said they were. My grandfather was an adult when David O. McKay was president. I feel like what he said about disabled members played into how he interacted with me. I don’t really remember him giving me a hug very often. I’ve often felt like he looks at me as an abomination. I often asked myself what I did to deserve that treatment. I found out that him and my grandma weren’t really open-minded about me being born with dwarfism. Finding out what he said about disabled members told me that my grandpa was treating me the way he was because of something that I couldn’t control and something that is part of who I am. He always treats me like I’m contagious with something. He gives me a fist bump whenever I see him, but that’s about it. I know It’s unrelated to the ban, but something we share in common is that we are members of marginalized communities. I know what it feels like to have people look at you like an abomination. It’s even more disheartening when people look at you that way because of something you didn’t choose. It’s extremely traumatic for anyone to experience.
You are certainly one in a million! A gifted natural musician who 'no teacher can harm'. Seems like you left the cult because you questioned its pack morality and lack of basic sensibility in 'rating' it's members. I hope you are in good health and composing your own music.Thank God you didn't inherit your grandfather's brain wiring! But - only kindness matters when dealing with ignorant/misled folk.♥
i was a missionary in east texas in 2000-2001 before leaving the church and even then over 20 years later black folks in the area regularly confronted us about this they’d ask why they’re good enough now when they weren’t before, this was especially true since so many people we interacted with would have been adults already when this ban was lifted i had started to learn then that there was a lot of looming lawsuits pending against the church then the “revelation” occurred, and that was one of the many things that started pulling me away from mormonism and leaving the mission early
I just bought and finished reading Second Class Saints today. This story has never been told before. Found it inspiring and heartwarming to see how Hugh B Brown and Spencer W Kimball struggled to lift the ban.
Bi-racial ex Mormon here. I was a teen in the early 90’s when I read in “Mormon doctrine” (preparing a talk) that I had been less valiant in the pre-existence. That messed me up! Tried to be the best possible person to make up for my pre-earthly flaws.
@@giuliom3564haha, but when you grow up in the church and read books titled "Mormon Doctrine" and "Doctrines of Salvation" by apostles and prophets, you don't know any better... especially in the 90's. If the church is going to disavow racist teachings and "opinions", then they should provide the books and quotes that members should denounce. Because there are still m
@@giuliom3564yeah but when you're a member in the 90's reading books titled "Mormon Doctrine" and "Doctrines of Salvation" written by apostles and prophets, you don't know any better. Members still don't.
My grandmother left the church over the “negro question.” But she didn’t return after the ban was lifted. (She was born in 1889 and saw the damage of polygamy.)
She was. Her first husband died when he was 29 after giving her three daughters. She did the course work for a PhD but never wrote her dissertation. She taught and was later was a visiting teacher, a position that was more like a school psychologist. She lived into her mid 90’s out living 3 husbands.
This is incredibly painful, VALIDATING, insidious, cruel, dishonest and unacceptable…. HOW??! 30 plus years I spent believing that GOD WANTED ME TO SUFFER and be TORMENTED, BADGERED AND SHAMED 🤢🤢🤢🤮
This is a favorite Episode .There was so much racism in the church. And so much racism in the post / ex Mormon world too.This helps explain why that is and why its so hard for people to let racist beliefs go. Thank you for presenting this.❤
My husband is 12% African. My grandpa never met him. But my grandpa told my mom that if she ever married a black man he would throw her into the lake. This was a real teaching and created generations to believe this way.
You could certainly teach us a lot about race. I’m reading Trevor Noah’s book “Born a Crime” and it’s really an incredible read and education on the apartheid system and race relations. I highly recommend it. It’s been very educational for me.
I live around the corner from one of the LDS churches in Pretoria - it looks practically empty all the time except for ppl looking like missionaries and I wonder how they handle these difficult questions, given the history of 🇿🇦 and often how woefully unprepared and ignorant the missionaries when they are “sent forth” 🤷🏾♀️
I had my DNA analyzed and found that I'm one percent North African, so I guess the "one drop rule" would have applied to me. I only wish that one percent had given me a bit more resistace to sunburn.
As a "never" Mormon, I find there are so many levels of hierarchy in the church that I need an org chart and job descriptions to determine who does what and their level of authority. Before I began learning about the cult called Mormonism I did not understand why is was so difficult to simply stop going to church. Brain washing begins at such an early age that it just a way of life. I honor all those who have made the transition. Thank you John for bringing such interesting guests to the show to educate your audience.
Thank you for thos episode. I wish every black person who is a member of this church could see this episode on reflect on this organization that they are a part of . An organization that says they were placed here on Earth as a representation of the devil.
I had heard about the fence sitting pre existance BS before. But this was something I never heard as a member that black people were a representation of Evil. I am sure this was not mentioned often for a reason but it was evident people were clinging to so much racism that they thought came from God.
as a new member in Primary in the early 70s I remember an illustrated primary lesson book with the story of black peoples as fence sitters in the war in heaven. No one I ever asked remembered hearing that.
Another great podcast! I am so looking forward to listening and learning more on the topic with Matt Harris. So interesting and engaging. Can’t wait to read his book!! Thanks MS for all you do!
My dad was born in 1950 in Detroit. He was Catholic and I can say to this day he is still very racist. Quietly, but it comes out at times. It was made very clear when I was young having a boyfriend or spouse of another race would eject us from the family no question. Not how I feel, or taught my children. Hopefully going forward not how my children will teach their children.
Wonderful episode. I'm curious why the church waited until 1978 before lifting the priesthood ban and what finally drove the change. Crazy to think just how recent this history is and how it still impacts the church today.
Thanks for this great episode! I had just graduated from high school in 1978 and was working in downtown SLC when I saw a bunch of people gathering in the street outside my place of work. I went outside to see what was happening and saw everyone pointing up at an electronic ticker tape billboard where news headlines were being scrolled. I saw the announcement that the priesthood ban had been lifted. Everybody was stumned--crying tears of joy, hugging, clapping, cheering. I knew even as an 18-year-old, white teenager that I was witnessing a historical moment.
This interview was really eye-opening! I also want to comment that I'm a Millennial and I still value Mormon Stories' long-form content. Sometimes the discussion that needs to be had simply takes two hours, and cutting it short would be a disservice to everyone. I listen in chunks while I do other things, occasionally scurrying into the room with the TV when something shocking is said.
Just a few years ago a 10-year-old innocent black girl committed suicide due to the racism she had to endure in school, the racism is extra in Utah. I had to call the school principal over and over so I've been through it with my children. They suffered
My great grandfather worked at the SL temple in the early 70's. He told me of a time when a man tried to get in the temple and the workers had a bad feeling about him. Come to find out he had black lineage so they didn't let him in. So interesting!
Born in 66 - primary reason I started doubting this church was the anti-Civil Rights and anti-ERA stance I saw in my parents (dad was a Seventy) and adult members. How could folks claiming to follow Jesus be such bigots? For example my Mom used to say “shootABuddha” to avoid cussing! My Grandma got in trouble for using the “N” word at my cousin’s school. The racism runs deep.
Absolutely fantastic. BY was always into power, sex, and money which is a mandatory need of any cult leader. BY had demonstrated this philosophy when he left Navoo.
Well heck .I had NO clue that is how they get revalation..I thought God directly came to the prophet in the temple. And through their prayers and visions. I am new with my faith crisis..the things I've heard and seen have been so mind blowing.
Brilliant!!! My intuition KNEW this info....hallelujah and thank you for doing this research and having the strength to bring the TRUTH to the world, especially to the very faithful and honest LDS members❤❤❤ ESSENTIAL for moving into deeper spirituality!!!
You don’t have to be of another race to be considered “A Second Class Saint”. All of my life growing up I felt like that. I never felt quite good enough to be considered a “Good Mormon “.
As a teenager I was second class because my mom was a single mother. When I went to BYU I was second class because I had to work to pay my way. It wasn't systemic, just cultural.
I went to a Lutheran college in the early 70s. Although it was run by the Lutheran church, there were many students that weren't a member of that church. In fact it was quite normal to be from another religion. Anyway, I took a class called "American Church History" which was a very interesting class about the development of the different denominations in the Americas. One day we were told that we would be visited by Mormon missionaries (we had visitors from other religions too) and had learned info about the "sect" before they came. One question asked them is why the blacks were banned from the priesthood in their church. I don't think they got any converts that day.
Still, small voice is not the same thing as they all hash it out verbally over time, like a meeting of corporate executives, reach a preliminary decision, pray together and then the Prophet says, "OK, my still, small voice tells me heavenly Father approves of this."
Yes, definitely more! I loved this episode. I've wondered for many years if the "one drop rule" applied today with our DNA testing and our much larger DNA knowledge, how many of our current church leaders would be denied the priesthood. Or if they could have had DNA testing in Brigham Young's day, how vastly different church and even American history would have been.
Racism is pathological. Nevermo here, but I listen in fascination all the time. I went away to high school. We had a senior trip where half the class went to view the Mormon Temple just opened in Washington DC for a window of time to non-Mormons, and the other half went to see Romeo and Juliet. It wasn’t until I was older did I realize I had to go to Romeo and Juliet, because I wasn’t allowed in the Mormon Temple.
I was always taught that people born with disabilities were valiant in the pre-existence. Therefore, because people with disabilities from birth (at least mental disabilities) were pretty much guaranteed exaltation because they couldn't fully understand things such as sin and would be considered innocent spirits.
I just bought my copy of the book on Kindle, can't wait to devour it. I served my mission in Uganda. I've left the church, but I married a Ugandan who is a member of the church (she joined the church many years before my mission) and is still active. We have a child together. Brigham Young's declaration that my family and I should lose our heads is one of many reasons I left the church. Clearly, Harris's scholarship indicates Young was much worse than just his declaration of "the law of God" regarding interracial relationships.
When our friend was denied the Preisthood, my mother was ready to walk out. That was about 1971. When there was a ban on LGBTQIA, our friends mom told my nephew my mom would have been marching out, because no one in her family would be left out. 1 a d all.
Why do we not hear many scholars addressing the historic psychosis behind European racism in the context of religion, and otherwise? It is indeed a diabolical thing and contrary to popular talking points it is not just a matter of money and power or politics.
My Dad got his DNA done and found out he is 1.7% sub-saharan African (black). This may not seem like a lot, but I did the math and it means it goes back six generations, which is about 150 years, if you assume I'm counting back to just one black person. 150 years isn't very long ago. My dad received the LDS Priesthood in the 1950s because it was before DNA testing and he doesn't "look black". He baptized me before the 1978 "revelation". The hypocrisy makes me want to vomit.
As a long time listener there are few episodes that add so much more insight than what I had prior. Excellent work and fantastic panel. I learned both positive and negative things on the topic. I thought it was all bad for the most part, but there were moments here in there where someone was trying to do the right thing.
You know I aiways listen to your podcast.. I like it a lot.. I am rased in a Swede cult, I hate my upbring in that way.. but I was loved loved loved... They told me I was living a satanic way.. .. I got a lot of trauma cuz I thought I was a god one.. Now I am dying and I am so afraid of hell.. It make my last days hard.. But I know Jesus was black so it made me feel better.. I am more a muslim now I want to leave this groose world in peace.. Keep up your god work ..
I wish you the best as your go through this phase of your life. I have decided that my faith is that I don't know anything. I'm just going to do my best to increase my ability to be kind, loving, and helpful to all among my path and not worry about the rest. In time I'll know what this life is all about. I hope you can let go of your fear and find peace as you go through this phase of life. Hugs.
According to the teachings of the church in the pre mortal existence those who sat on the fence- during the war in heaven- didn’t fight along side god but also didn’t join satans side, those so called fence sitters were not considered valiant. But god allowed them to receive a body on earth anyway. The punishment for their fence sitting was dark skin and being born with a disability also meant you weren’t valiant. So according to doctrine they did receive punishment for their own sin. The sin of not being valiant enough in the pre mortal existence. An incredible load of BS. I am biracial and adopted and being taught all that growing up was not good for my self esteem. So glad I left! Life is good outside the whacky Mormon bubble.
Immediately following the Civil War, protestant missionaries began to gather native Americans and freed slaves. This I know from my own family and my grandmother who was born into the ministry. The term "colored people" was a reference to these people. Although it was illegal for mixed people to "assemble," they could be given work and income. A farm in Florida could establish a secret meeting place for a school and a church. After many years and several serious attacks by white locals, the family moved west to the reservations. Most of the native Americans had already been taken there.
Hi Dr. John and everyone! Really love what you’re discussing. Just purchased the digital copy of the book because I literally can’t fit one more book in my house. Anyways, that was a wonderful purchase, but would love to see an audiobook as well. That’s my preferred format, especially for books discussing history.
![กิโลเมตรที่ 0 เดินทางรอบโลกไม่ใช้เครื่องบิน [Around The World Ep. 1]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/toJG9oofLFY/mqdefault.jpg)
As a black Texas Mormon I just couldn’t stay so glad I left
Good for you.
Yeah I noticed a long time ago after I recently became a Mormon that there's racism in the LDS church and have experienced about probably three times. Last yeah I left the LDS church as well.
Sadly, I would be willing to bet if you went to talk to the bishop and say I want to come back he would pull a huge book with all of your information still there. It's never gone 😭😭😭
Congratulations 🎊
I recently left. Way too many lies and deception. The fact has come out and said that the church doesn’t apologize cooked it for me.
Going to comment before you start show..My mother in law got quite the shock when she did ancestry dna and came back with about 25% African DNA..i asked her how she would have felt if she had found out before the ban was lifted..she could not seem to answer. Then I asked would her deceased husband have married her had he found out during the ban..I think she was so shocked by KNOWING for FACT there was NO WAY he would have..Made her REALLY HAVE TO THINK ABOUT how Her situation likely would have been completely changed..In the moment she realized how she would have been cast aside..eye opening for her especially considering how both her and her husband had still been spouting no mixing garbage clear up to his death..
Wow. Just wow.
Ironic isn't it? Knowing you have been condemning your own self. Wow!.
Thank you for sharing. This is very interesting to me. Personally, I am not LDS. I’m not religious of any sort at all. However, I’m 37% Irish, 6% Ashkenazi Jew, and the rest is German/Scandinavian/Isles of the UK. Basically, I am as white European as I’ve ever heard of a person being. As much as I am white European, my ancestors still originated from Africa, moving into very East Asia/Eastern Europe, eventually settling in Western Europe. Banning people from anything, let alone their religion choice, is absolutely mind boggling-ly nonsensical to me.
How awful, and how poignant. Thank you for sharing that. How odd that her patriarchal blessing didn’t reveal her lineage 🙄
This. It seems people don’t care about things until they can relate to them personally. The way I talk to members about the church’s homophobia is I ask them how they would feel if church leaders who they believed spoke for god told them that as a straight person they had to marry somebody of the same sex, and have sex with them and never have any straight relations ever in order to go to heaven. They think for a few seconds until the cognitive dissonance kicks in and they say something to the effect of “it’s not the same….”
I'm a former member of the Allred fundamentalist group. My biological father divorced my mom because he got a "revelation" that there was black blood through her family line. So she, along with all her kids were cursed. These teachings are so damaging, and I'm grateful to be out of that cult.
Sorry to hear that. Wonder why he didn't get the warning revelation before he got married and had kids. I don't really believe that a loving god would curse generations of people especially children.
That is sad. Religion can divide and even destroy families. John Dehlin has said something like "religion is a nice spice, but it can be a nauseating and even deadly main course.
I worked with an Allred. Ultradent has a bunch of ex-polygamists.
I'm sorry that you had him as your biological ancestor
I grew up in the sixties. We were absolutely led to believe that the prophets and apostles talked directly to God, Jesus, angels. Stories like that they would emerge from a room turned totally white and their skin and hair would gradually return color, proliferated. This direct contact was hyped as critical to the legitimation of the true church. It was also the civil rights era which even as a child caused me doubt and part of what led me to leave the church in adolescence.
My fav topic. Ex Mormon lady of color here. All good, all love❤
This is so very important. I am one of the never-Mormon part of your audience. This is a very significant part of American history and a crucial part of our inheritance. We must continue to go forward with this. Matthew Harris thank you!
Fascinating. Looking forward to the next one.
I'm curious if you have any idea about church patriarchs who have left the church. It would be interesting to hear their stories. Thanks for all your do.
Muchísimas gracias 🙏
Thanks!
I was raised in the Allred polygamist group where the ban is still in place today. I always struggled with their blatant racism but still went through their version of the temple. I found out after my husband and i left that I have black ancestors from my mother's side, who was adopted. Their powers of the priesthood failed to detect "the drop of black blood" for me and my mother. lol I embrace and appreciate my history. I am grateful we both made it out together. Thank you for what you do, John. This was a wonderful episode and I learned so much from you and your lovely guests.
I was a lady missionary in Brazil in 1974. We were told to not teach black people. We were advised that if we couldn't tell if they had black blood we should look at their hands to see of their palms were lighter than the tops of the hand. We were to politely leave if we suspected they were not all white. Also, after having my DNA done a few years ago I've discovered that I have 2% of sub Saharan African DNA. I'm almost alabaster white and you'd never guess my ancestry. This means I wouldn't have been able to go through the temple nor serve a mission. Sheesh. There was no way to tell who had black blood. I'm positive that there were a lot of long time LDS temple going members who had no idea they had black ancestry. What an ignorant, stupid ban. I left the church many years ago.
😮Omg
Lady missionary???
Like all religions they just made it up as they went along
@Aaron-SLC Yes, women can be missionaries, too. I served a mission, too.
@@Aaron-SLC sister missionary
Keep this going MS.
Fascinating, one of the best pod casts of 2024.
Where is the best place to buy the book where it benefits Matt Harris the most?
Amazon
Please continue this series! This is great! Thanks Matt and John
I descend from an African slave. We always suspected it, but DNA tests later proved it. The line is through my dad. Not a large percentage - Around 6%. Dad joined the Church in 1974. My parents were sealed in 1975. When I think about the priesthood ban, it’s so wild to think that if the church had known about my dad’s ancestry, my parents’ sealing would not have been allowed. For all the Church leaders pretend they were never racist, it’s hard to make that argument when you literally invented new ways to be racist.
I'm not sure after the fact the Church would have done anything. Back in the 1950s the Church let mixed blood South African males to be ordained if they looked white. At that time, the Mormon Church in South Africa had a "don't ask don't tell" policy.
@@kentthalman4459 After the fact wasn’t a concern. It’s more that if they had known they would have prevented it, prior to lifting the ban.
Thanks!
Amazing episode and so interesting!
Thanks!
I really appreciate all the work, guests, hosts, and comments! Despite leaving the church over 50 years ago, I find myself still deconstructing. Your podcasts have been life-changing!
40 years for me- couldn’t agree more. So much of human identity is created in those formative years.
I really, really, really like this guy! I love the way he tells all these stories - no anger and whining, just respect. I am buying the book and will buy more as Christmas presents!!!!
When I first heard about this, I was way too permissive of that policy. I constantly made excuses for the behavior of so many men I considered to be prophets. Deep down though, I was pretty disgusted with the men who enacted the policy. After I left the church, I revisited things like this. Now, I look at it as an inexcusable policy. The guys in church behaved in such a disgusting manner. It constantly haunts me that I was a part of such a terrible system that hurt so many. More recently, I came to understand just a little bit how members of color feel about this. I was born with a disability called Metatropic Dysplasia dwarfism. I was a member of the church for my entire childhood. My dad told me something he heard from David O McKay concerning people with disabilities. He told me that McKay said that I was born that people like me were born with our conditions because we were less valuable in the “pre-existence”. Hearing that comment, I came to understand what it must have felt like to be devalued by the church when you truly believe in it. So many believed that they were abominable because the “prophet” said they were. My grandfather was an adult when David O. McKay was president. I feel like what he said about disabled members played into how he interacted with me. I don’t really remember him giving me a hug very often. I’ve often felt like he looks at me as an abomination. I often asked myself what I did to deserve that treatment. I found out that him and my grandma weren’t really open-minded about me being born with dwarfism. Finding out what he said about disabled members told me that my grandpa was treating me the way he was because of something that I couldn’t control and something that is part of who I am. He always treats me like I’m contagious with something. He gives me a fist bump whenever I see him, but that’s about it. I know It’s unrelated to the ban, but something we share in common is that we are members of marginalized communities. I know what it feels like to have people look at you like an abomination. It’s even more disheartening when people look at you that way because of something you didn’t choose. It’s extremely traumatic for anyone to experience.
You are certainly one in a million! A gifted natural musician who 'no teacher can harm'. Seems like you left the cult because you questioned its pack morality and lack of basic sensibility in 'rating' it's members. I hope you are in good health and composing your own music.Thank God you didn't inherit your grandfather's brain wiring! But - only kindness matters when dealing with ignorant/misled folk.♥
i was a missionary in east texas in 2000-2001 before leaving the church and even then over 20 years later black folks in the area regularly confronted us about this
they’d ask why they’re good enough now when they weren’t before, this was especially true since so many people we interacted with would have been adults already when this ban was lifted
i had started to learn then that there was a lot of looming lawsuits pending against the church then the “revelation” occurred, and that was one of the many things that started pulling me away from mormonism and leaving the mission early
One of my top 5 episodes of all time easily! Fascinating!
I just bought and finished reading Second Class Saints today. This story has never been told before. Found it inspiring and heartwarming to see how Hugh B Brown and Spencer W Kimball struggled to lift the ban.
I am so glad you you enjoyed the book. I, too, found Brown and Kimball's actions heartwarming.
This was one of the most amazing episodes I've ever seen. Can't wait to see more!
Outstanding episode. One of your best. I could listen to Matt every day. He’s an exceptional scholar and historian. Very well done!
Bi-racial ex Mormon here. I was a teen in the early 90’s when I read in “Mormon doctrine” (preparing a talk) that I had been less valiant in the pre-existence. That messed me up! Tried to be the best possible person to make up for my pre-earthly flaws.
It's stupid to take seriously the Book "mormon doctrine". It's a book written by a person, there is not the Church doctrine.
@@giuliom3564haha, but when you grow up in the church and read books titled "Mormon Doctrine" and "Doctrines of Salvation" by apostles and prophets, you don't know any better... especially in the 90's.
If the church is going to disavow racist teachings and "opinions", then they should provide the books and quotes that members should denounce. Because there are still m
@@giuliom3564yeah but when you're a member in the 90's reading books titled "Mormon Doctrine" and "Doctrines of Salvation" written by apostles and prophets, you don't know any better. Members still don't.
My grandmother left the church over the “negro question.” But she didn’t return after the ban was lifted. (She was born in 1889 and saw the damage of polygamy.)
I’d love to hear more about her story. She sounds like a fascinating woman!
She was. Her first husband died when he was 29 after giving her three daughters. She did the course work for a PhD but never wrote her dissertation. She taught and was later was a visiting teacher, a position that was more like a school psychologist. She lived into her mid 90’s out living 3 husbands.
@@hlnbee Thank you for sharing a little more about her. She sounds like the kind of person you could easily write a whole book about. ❤️
Actually she did write a memoir that my mother typed. I still have it! I’m an octogenarian.
@@hlnbee Oh, that’s wonderful! Let me know if it’s ever published or put online to read - I would definitely read it!
Thank you for this discussion ... it answered so many questions for me. Bless you all for your awesome work for bringing the truth forward.
This is incredibly painful, VALIDATING, insidious, cruel, dishonest and unacceptable…. HOW??! 30 plus years I spent believing that GOD WANTED ME TO SUFFER and be TORMENTED, BADGERED AND SHAMED 🤢🤢🤢🤮
This is a favorite Episode .There was so much racism in the church. And so much racism in the post / ex Mormon world too.This helps explain why that is and why its so hard for people to let racist beliefs go.
Thank you for presenting this.❤
Matt Harris is easily in my top 10 Mormon Stories guests of all time!
My husband is 12% African. My grandpa never met him. But my grandpa told my mom that if she ever married a black man he would throw her into the lake. This was a real teaching and created generations to believe this way.
I am African, and it was very difficult not to pierce my tympanic membranes... these dudes were sick
Thanks for the shout out! Sorry I'm just getting around to listening. I wanted my interview to be fresh.
Looking forward to the history lesson from South Africa 🇿🇦✋ - many of us here converted without knowing about the priesthood ban.
Oh boy. I'm sure the missionaries kept that quiet.
Yea for informed consent!!!
Utah exmormon ex missionary here, that unfortunately checks out. Hope you are doing well and taking care of yourself!
You could certainly teach us a lot about race. I’m reading Trevor Noah’s book “Born a Crime” and it’s really an incredible read and education on the apartheid system and race relations. I highly recommend it. It’s been very educational for me.
I live around the corner from one of the LDS churches in Pretoria - it looks practically empty all the time except for ppl looking like missionaries and I wonder how they handle these difficult questions, given the history of 🇿🇦 and often how woefully unprepared and ignorant the missionaries when they are “sent forth” 🤷🏾♀️
Always amazes me how sexuality is such a big factor in racism of all kinds.
It always seems to men having "member envy" justified or not.
Why would anyone want to be part of something that doesn't value them? No thanks
I had my DNA analyzed and found that I'm one percent North African, so I guess the "one drop rule" would have applied to me. I only wish that one percent had given me a bit more resistace to sunburn.
I had my DNA done and was hoping I had some African DNA. Unfortunately I didn’t have any.
My Dad was born in Delaware and not Mormon. 😊
@@hlnbee I'm so pale I get a sunburn by opening the fridge. The rest of my DNA is English, Irish and Norwegian.
North African isn't African by race.
As a "never" Mormon, I find there are so many levels of hierarchy in the church that I need an org chart and job descriptions to determine who does what and their level of authority. Before I began learning about the cult called Mormonism I did not understand why is was so difficult to simply stop going to church. Brain washing begins at such an early age that it just a way of life. I honor all those who have made the transition. Thank you John for bringing such interesting guests to the show to educate your audience.
I’m so excited for this new series!!! Dr. Matt Harris is brilliant.
Thank you for thos episode. I wish every black person who is a member of this church could see this episode on reflect on this organization that they are a part of . An organization that says they were placed here on Earth as a representation of the devil.
Same argument could be made if they're Republican too
So what should black Republicans do?@@sjenson6694
I had heard about the fence sitting pre existance BS before. But this was something I never heard as a member that black people were a representation of Evil. I am sure this was not mentioned often for a reason but it was evident people were clinging to so much racism that they thought came from God.
This is going to be an amazing series.
I am so excited about this series! Can’t wait for the next episode!
Great ep
i wonder how they would react to Ethiopians who were not only some of the earliest Christians but also the earliest Jews outside of the lavent
as a new member in Primary in the early 70s I remember an illustrated primary lesson book with the story of black peoples as fence sitters in the war in heaven. No one I ever asked remembered hearing that.
Another great podcast! I am so looking forward to listening and learning more on the topic with Matt Harris. So interesting and engaging. Can’t wait to read his book!! Thanks MS for all you do!
This was a really interesting and eye-opening interview. Please produce more like this. Thanks.
My dad was born in 1950 in Detroit. He was Catholic and I can say to this day he is still very racist. Quietly, but it comes out at times. It was made very clear when I was young having a boyfriend or spouse of another race would eject us from the family no question. Not how I feel, or taught my children. Hopefully going forward not how my children will teach their children.
I'm so sorry, my mom is tge same.
Wonderful episode. I'm curious why the church waited until 1978 before lifting the priesthood ban and what finally drove the change. Crazy to think just how recent this history is and how it still impacts the church today.
No so called “ restored” gospel would discriminate against any human souls…
I remember reading the "Not One-Drop" of African Blood " in the Mormon Doctrine Book by Bruce R McConkie. A Quote by
The Mormon Prophet Brigham Young.
We had to buy Mormon Doctrine for seminary class many decades ago and still have my copy. It is a rather disturbing book.
Thanks for this great episode! I had just graduated from high school in 1978 and was working in downtown SLC when I saw a bunch of people gathering in the street outside my place of work. I went outside to see what was happening and saw everyone pointing up at an electronic ticker tape billboard where news headlines were being scrolled. I saw the announcement that the priesthood ban had been lifted. Everybody was stumned--crying tears of joy, hugging, clapping, cheering. I knew even as an 18-year-old, white teenager that I was witnessing a historical moment.
I’m listening to this from Australia. This is absolutely fascinating. John you always have amazing content, I love your soothing voice
I am a bit of a true crime documentar y addict so I am used to watching dark stuff, but blood atonement literally makes me sick.
This interview was really eye-opening! I also want to comment that I'm a Millennial and I still value Mormon Stories' long-form content. Sometimes the discussion that needs to be had simply takes two hours, and cutting it short would be a disservice to everyone. I listen in chunks while I do other things, occasionally scurrying into the room with the TV when something shocking is said.
Outstanding podcast!. Matt's work is excellent, thoughtful and thorough. Illuminating LDS history like this is fascinating. Thankyou.
Gerardo your curls are so beautiful and luscious!
😍
Really looking forward to this new series. Thank you Matt Harris, John and Gerardo for bringing us this.
Our pleasure!
Just a few years ago a 10-year-old innocent black girl committed suicide due to the racism she had to endure in school, the racism is extra in Utah. I had to call the school principal over and over so I've been through it with my children. They suffered
Thanks
Fantastic program!
My great grandfather worked at the SL temple in the early 70's. He told me of a time when a man tried to get in the temple and the workers had a bad feeling about him. Come to find out he had black lineage so they didn't let him in. So interesting!
Wait, so their “bad feeling” was based on him being black only?
Do the series. I want to know more about this history.
Born in 66 - primary reason I started doubting this church was the anti-Civil Rights and anti-ERA stance I saw in my parents (dad was a Seventy) and adult members. How could folks claiming to follow Jesus be such bigots? For example my Mom used to say “shootABuddha” to avoid cussing! My Grandma got in trouble for using the “N” word at my cousin’s school. The racism runs deep.
P.s. pre-ordered book
Absolutely fantastic. BY was always into power, sex, and money which is a mandatory need of any cult leader. BY had demonstrated this philosophy when he left Navoo.
Happy to see my monthly donation working towards this series!! 💯😉 (Book ordered!)
Well heck .I had NO clue that is how they get revalation..I thought God directly came to the prophet in the temple. And through their prayers and visions.
I am new with my faith crisis..the things I've heard and seen have been so mind blowing.
I pray you get to know the real Jesus Christ and get out of the Mormon church. Look up Mike Winger. He is a fantastic teacher of Christianity.
Brilliant!!! My intuition KNEW this info....hallelujah and thank you for doing this research and having the strength to bring the TRUTH to the world, especially to the very faithful and honest LDS members❤❤❤ ESSENTIAL for moving into deeper spirituality!!!
John you are an example of what a good person and good man is, thinks, acts, align, etc. you and Margie are such impressive humans.
You don’t have to be of another race to be considered “A Second Class Saint”. All of my life growing up I felt like that. I never felt quite good enough to be considered a “Good Mormon “.
As a teenager I was second class because my mom was a single mother. When I went to BYU I was second class because I had to work to pay my way. It wasn't systemic, just cultural.
It's a church based on a false Jesus and it is not Christian. I pray you discover the real Christian church.
I went to a Lutheran college in the early 70s. Although it was run by the Lutheran church, there were many students that weren't a member of that church. In fact it was quite normal to be from another religion. Anyway, I took a class called "American Church History" which was a very interesting class about the development of the different denominations in the Americas. One day we were told that we would be visited by Mormon missionaries (we had visitors from other religions too) and had learned info about the "sect" before they came. One question asked them is why the blacks were banned from the priesthood in their church. I don't think they got any converts that day.
This was really good. Kudos
Still, small voice is not the same thing as they all hash it out verbally over time, like a meeting of corporate executives, reach a preliminary decision, pray together and then the Prophet says, "OK, my still, small voice tells me heavenly Father approves of this."
We need an audiobook!
Yes, definitely more! I loved this episode. I've wondered for many years if the "one drop rule" applied today with our DNA testing and our much larger DNA knowledge, how many of our current church leaders would be denied the priesthood. Or if they could have had DNA testing in Brigham Young's day, how vastly different church and even American history would have been.
Racism is pathological. Nevermo here, but I listen in fascination all the time. I went away to high school. We had a senior trip where half the class went to view the Mormon Temple just opened in Washington DC for a window of time to non-Mormons, and the other half went to see Romeo and Juliet. It wasn’t until I was older did I realize I had to go to Romeo and Juliet, because I wasn’t allowed in the Mormon Temple.
I was always taught that people born with disabilities were valiant in the pre-existence. Therefore, because people with disabilities from birth (at least mental disabilities) were pretty much guaranteed exaltation because they couldn't fully understand things such as sin and would be considered innocent spirits.
I just bought my copy of the book on Kindle, can't wait to devour it. I served my mission in Uganda. I've left the church, but I married a Ugandan who is a member of the church (she joined the church many years before my mission) and is still active. We have a child together. Brigham Young's declaration that my family and I should lose our heads is one of many reasons I left the church. Clearly, Harris's scholarship indicates Young was much worse than just his declaration of "the law of God" regarding interracial relationships.
When our friend was denied the Preisthood, my mother was ready to walk out. That was about 1971. When there was a ban on LGBTQIA, our friends mom told my nephew my mom would have been marching out, because no one in her family would be left out. 1 a d all.
Why do we not hear many scholars addressing the historic psychosis behind European racism in the context of religion, and otherwise? It is indeed a diabolical thing and contrary to popular talking points it is not just a matter of money and power or politics.
I agree. Wish someone, somewhere, would do a deep dive into the history of the Ethiopian Christian church. It's SO interesting!
What a beautiful series, thank you !❤
This is the best episode ever! I’m getting the book.
My Dad got his DNA done and found out he is 1.7% sub-saharan African (black). This may not seem like a lot, but I did the math and it means it goes back six generations, which is about 150 years, if you assume I'm counting back to just one black person. 150 years isn't very long ago. My dad received the LDS Priesthood in the 1950s because it was before DNA testing and he doesn't "look black". He baptized me before the 1978 "revelation". The hypocrisy makes me want to vomit.
So excited for this series. The episodes with Matt about Ezra Taft Benson are some of my favorite Mormon Stories episodes of all time.
As a long time listener there are few episodes that add so much more insight than what I had prior. Excellent work and fantastic panel. I learned both positive and negative things on the topic. I thought it was all bad for the most part, but there were moments here in there where someone was trying to do the right thing.
My dad served a mission in the south pre-1978. He was told to not teach black people.
Same thing I was told by a 76 year old mormon man I lived with. They were told to never teach black people.
I agree! Matt Harris is awesome! I learn so much from all his content!
You know I aiways listen to your podcast.. I like it a lot.. I am rased in a Swede cult, I hate my upbring in that way.. but I was loved loved loved... They told me I was living a satanic way.. .. I got a lot of trauma cuz I thought I was a god one.. Now I am dying and I am so afraid of hell.. It make my last days hard.. But I know Jesus was black so it made me feel better.. I am more a muslim now I want to leave this groose world in peace.. Keep up your god work ..
I wish you the best as your go through this phase of your life.
I have decided that my faith is that I don't know anything. I'm just going to do my best to increase my ability to be kind, loving, and helpful to all among my path and not worry about the rest. In time I'll know what this life is all about.
I hope you can let go of your fear and find peace as you go through this phase of life. Hugs.
My husband was in southern states mission early 1970’s. They were not allowed to proselytize to black people.
Can't wait for the next episode in the series! 2.5 hours flew by. Thank you
Can't afford to donate but I'll like, comment and share! Would love to see this turn into a series!
Hello from Europe
What about we believe that man will be punished for their own sin and not Adam's transgressions. Doesn’t that include Cain?
According to the teachings of the church in the pre mortal existence those who sat on the fence- during the war in heaven- didn’t fight along side god but also didn’t join satans side, those so called fence sitters were not considered valiant. But god allowed them to receive a body on earth anyway. The punishment for their fence sitting was dark skin and being born with a disability also meant you weren’t valiant. So according to doctrine they did receive punishment for their own sin. The sin of not being valiant enough in the pre mortal existence.
An incredible load of BS. I am biracial and adopted and being taught all that growing up was not good for my self esteem.
So glad I left!
Life is good outside the whacky Mormon bubble.
Immediately following the Civil War, protestant missionaries began to gather native Americans and freed slaves. This I know from my own family and my grandmother who was born into the ministry. The term "colored people" was a reference to these people. Although it was illegal for mixed people to "assemble," they could be given work and income. A farm in Florida could establish a secret meeting place for a school and a church. After many years and several serious attacks by white locals, the family moved west to the reservations. Most of the native Americans had already been taken there.
This is so informative
Hi Dr. John and everyone! Really love what you’re discussing. Just purchased the digital copy of the book because I literally can’t fit one more book in my house. Anyways, that was a wonderful purchase, but would love to see an audiobook as well. That’s my preferred format, especially for books discussing history.