Mr Lipton Giving credit where it is due...I really enjoy listening to an intelligent person explain what they are doing. I liked this video because you made doing what is quite complex easy for me to understand. Thank you. As always, I'm looking forward to the rest. Brian Tharp
Excellent in depth taper tutorial Tom, everything you were afraid to ask about tapers and why you were afraid in the first place. Rational explanation = priceless information. Thanks Tom.
This worths the wait. A fantastic structured video with alternative ways and shop math. Besides it was not boring like attending a lecture. Looking forward part 2. Thanks Mehmet
Lots to take in on this subject Master Tom, and you show it in fine fashion! This is why it's important to understand the math involved, and I can't say I'm that good at it. It's great your showing how to machine a taper with nothing to indicate, because all of my jobs I have had a sample to get the taper attachment, or compound dialed in to. Looking forward to the rest of the series. Thanks for sharing with us all! Adam
i always indicate the sample taper true with the compound or make a reference for setup taper gage to indicate for the next time i run the job, to take the time to set up to cut a taper from scratch and not have a reference gage to indicate the next time you have to cut the same taper would not be too wise and also would be extremely inefficient. if you have to take the time to start from scratch to set the taper up anyway it is extremely wise to make a sample taper gage to indicate true to the compound if you need to cut the same taper in the future. i personally have found this method to be the fastest, easiest, most efficient way of cutting tapers
Hey Adam, Thanks for the comment buddy. Its all pretty straightforward when you have a sample to match to. The trick is getting started with just the book and a chunk of material. Have fun on your trip to Keith's get together. Talk to you soon, Tom
Erik Grahn Hey Eric, If you have a sample its all pretty easy. The trick I was trying to show here is how you get going with nothing but the book and a machine. I agree if your set up and its a taper you may cut again its probably worth making a sample to throw in the toolbox for the next time. Cheers, Tom
Tom, I thank you , Adam , Keith , and Keith for taking part in me becoming a better millwright . The tricks and tips are priceless ! Always My Best , Tighe
Hi Tom, Excellent reminder on tapers, math and measuring, some of that stuff was getting hidden in my brain, good thing to get it stimulated once in a while... thanks and cheers, Pierre
You guys really are something for taking time out to help people if they're trying to learn. Seriously... Hey, anyone doing this as a newbie i wouldn't try u might want to learn prints, then setting up gages, mics etc. taper, threads tapered, sorry....tapered threads....thread diam & avg. thread diameter if dealing with springing (ovality)...thread lead stuff like that.... that's considering you have ran a lathe or mill or whatever.... the math isn't that hard don't let it confuse you if u can count to 100 add subtract the realize fractions and decimals and division of.... once you got that the rest is a breeze. But, all these individuals taking time to make these videos....appreciate them because I'm telling you it takes some endurance.
Excellent video Tom. If I had to try and figure it out I would not have thought of the ring gauge technique which is very simple and accurate. I am 100% in favor of these types of instructional videos. Please keep them coming.
Hey Steve, See what a simple drill press shaft repair turns into? If you start talking about some of these things they really blow up into major subjects. cheers, Tom
Tom, It's great to see that my shaft is in such capable hands. I did not realize my request for help with a messed up 40's drill press would end up a well received video series. By the time you're finished with the shaft, it will probably have a taper that is more accurate than when it was new. I have enjoyed all of your videos. They make me want to run out and buy some machines and make some parts, but the wife says no. I will just have to live vicariously through you and the other machinists on TH-cam. Thanks for all of your work for the benefit of the greater community. Looking forward to the next installment, Kurt
Hey Kurt, Wait till we get to the gold plating of the shaft video....... We sure can milk a cow for all its worth around here. Thanks for the comment. Cheers, Tom
For all of us descendants of the Manx. Motto: "Quocunque Jeceris Stabit" (Latin) "Whithersoever you throw it, it will stand" Keep up the great work Tom, and thanks for reminding all that the TT is alive and well. Craig
There is a lot of meat on that bone Tom. Very big thanks for the show-and-tell on taper measuring and the math. Love your HP 11C. I have a 12C on my desk and I had recently installed the 11C app on my phone for math problems like you presented here. Nice to be able to follow along with the same calculator (emulator in my case) that you did your math solving with. He shoots, he scores, he earns the win with this video! Gary
Hey Gary, I have the RPN calculator app on my phone. I also have a 15C and a couple of 41CV's Wish I bought some backups when you could get them easily. Cheers, Tom
I really enjoy a good video that beats a subject to death. While I don't have the equipment to apply every method shown, now I know I can attack a taper problem and figure it out. Thanks Tom. Maybe this will become my new "first check" channel each day when I come home. ;-) Clog up the hole and put a bird house outside.
The great thing y about this series Tom, is that it is one thing for a person to read the method somewhere - but a totally better experience to see the theory applied in visual and real world situation.You also demonstrated three methods all hanging off the same set ups on lathe etc...so the learning experience ( for me anyway) is made easier and (certainly) more enjoyable.. Good thing I actually enjoyed Trig and geometry in high school....if only it was taught from a practical perspective .. Great Stuff and thanks for posting these. Pete
The HP 15, WOW that brings back memories. Had one in college. Reverse Polish notation, forgot all about that.Looks like she has seen a fair amount of use. Good job on the trig lesson!
Wow! That was one intense lesson, but very well presented. Tom, that should be seen by every High school Trignometry class. Why learn math? To have the skill to make things with precision. Im afraid we have turned into a society that thinks only computers can do math. Cant wait to see more of this. Great job explaining the methodology. the sketches make is easy to follow. Love this stuff! Bill
Tom, I watched this video all of the way through a couple times now! I'm going to save this one as one of my very favorite videos! I have been wanting to learn more about this subject for a long time. You have really done a great job and answered some of the questions I have had about measuring tapers, but did not know how to ask let alone who to ask. Can't wait to see how you set up the lathe to turn a taper to 5 seconds or less! Thanks Mr. Wizard. All the best! Your student, Bob Troxell.
Hey Bob, It will take me more than 5 seconds to cut the taper..... Just kidding. Thanks for the nice comment. Its like pandora's box. Once you start messing around with tapers it quickly blows up into a fairly complex subject. Cheers, Tom
Tom, this is truly a master's class video loaded with information. I've pondered how to measure the distance between two points on a taper, but it never occurred to me to use a simple gauge like you demonstrate, and I don't recall having seen that anywhere. Clever! (A subtle note: the notation tan-¹ or arctan is read, "the angle whose tangent is X" not "raised to the power".) Have you considered trying a polarizing filter on your camera to eliminate the glare on the dials and white paper? Thanks for a truly exceptional presentation! I predict this one will go viral! : )
Hey Steve, I think I would rather split hairs on a precision taper than with a stone wall going one eighty on a motorcycle. In my younger days that would have been my kinda racing. cheers, Tom
Hey Tom, Or should I address you as Professor Ox? Thanks for the concise explaination of determining tapers. Like you stated, it's quite an involved process to get stuff within tolerance. You stated that your gear tooth vernier gage was stiff from lack of use. That sounds like a personal problem, if there ever was one. And just the other day, you were playing with your Johnson! :-) Enough humor! Thanks again for the lesson on determining tapers. Regards, Oxen Dave
Hey Dave, Thanks for the comment. I actually lubricated the vernier before I shot the video. It was really stiff before I shot the segment. cheers, Tom
Tom, Yer bird buddy makes my pet birds at home chirp back like they are making a long distance call . Its pretty funny actually! Thanks for the great info as always. I love using the math to prove setups! Ps...flipped through the KBC catalog and saw your book. Congrats! Thanks again Tom!
Hey Mr. Tom. I noticed the 15c in one video and then an 11c in another. Thought I was loosing my mind. Haha. Very nice looking calculator. Pricey. But nice. Did some research on purchasing one. Great vids as always. Keep up the good work. ;)
Thanks for the info and the shop math refresher. It has been a while since the last time I have needed to calculate an angle and it was not clear in my mind anymore. It all just came back to me, I am the sort of person that is good at math only if I am activly doing math problems.
One other advantage of using a reverse Polish notation calculator: I can leave it laying around and pretty much no one will pick it up and try to use it!
A very informative video. I just turned a few tapers with my taper attachment, setup mostly by luck (some good, and some bad!). P.S. In the video at 37:00..."That's what she said!"
Hi Tom, Many thanks for the interesting videos! I didn't see this subject discussed yet so excuse me if I am repeating. I have struggled with making accurate tapers for some time and looked forward to your approach. Regarding the ring gage approach, I think an error analysis is in order. Presumably, you are using a standard set of pin gages which increment by .001" to measure the diameters. This means that a measurement of a hole diameter will a best be within +/- .0005" so a diameter difference measurement of .044" could actually be .043" to .045". In practice the tolerance range could be slightly higher due to the subjective nature of the "feel" of the fit. Looking at the worst case scenarios, the diameter difference divided by the distance difference ranges from .0620 to .06500. Dividing by 2 to get the radius difference ratios and taking the arctan gives a range of 1.7784 to 1.8615 degrees for the measured angle. Actually the range is somewhat greater due to the uncertainty in the dial indicator reading. The whole point of this exercise is to illustrate the danger of relying on measurements when dealing with small differences. I ran into this problem professionally when we tried to characterize a small tapered socket on a molded part. D1/D2 was approximately .04"/.02" with a 4 degree angle and a hydraulic seal and external hard stop with the mating part and sixteen mold cavities with were involved. We went through quite a few iterations with the mold maker before we came to an agreement.
Hi Robert, Thanks for the excellent comment. You illustrate some of the problems with measuring tapers accurately. The pins were indeed .001 steps but minus pins. This means the discrimination tolerance is one sided not +/- as the minus pin determines "no smaller than" The analysis of the tolerance stackup is tricky for certain. I don't expect this shop grade home made tooling to discriminate much closer than +/- thirty seconds of arc. We will close the loop in the taper discussion by checking the angle with a sine bar method to verify or quantify the resolution possible. Careful setup and multiple readings can improve results but like all measurements there is always some uncertainty. All the best, Tom
Hi Yan, That is a good idea. I tried a polarizing filter on the camera and it makes little difference. There is just too much light in the shop coming from too many angles to screen it easily. I'll have to try that. Cheers, Tom
Very late to this video but excellent job. You made me pull out my Machiniery's Handbook. For what it's worth, the tolerance for Morse Taper is .oo2/12". - couldn't find a tolerance for Jacobs. If you stick with taper instead of angle, you can eliminate the trig for determining accuracy.
I know this is old but was looking through taper videos and saw it. Your gages are a very cool way to check datum diameters as long as viewers follow your instructions about sharp burr free corners and make sure its square. One comment on the original angle error. The tip of the test indicator used to sweep the top of the taper looked to be angled maybe 15 degrees. Depending on the model of indicator it probably had a cosine error value of maybe .96 meaning you had closer to .0254 then .0265. That would put it pretty close to the angle spec. I think a dial indicator would be better than the test in this situation or it needs to be very horizontal.
I have been looking forward to this one! very well done and presented other than the exposer is completely blown with too much light in places, the indicator dials, the papers you are showing and even the back of your hands are blown totally white!!! It's much better with the yellow paper later in the vid! Looking forward to how to set the compound dead nuts to cut that perfectly measured/ calculated angle? Love your stuff!!!!!
Hey Gent, Not all of us work in a shop with only one lightbulb in it....... Just kidding. I did forgot to lock the auto exposure when I was on the dark background. Whoops. All the best, Tom
Interesting watching these older videos. On that ring gauge, how do you ensure a sharp corner? The accuracy of that thing is going to suffer if you have any sort of a chamfer at all on the corners.
Place the commercial arbor between centers and adjust your compound rest angle so the indicator has no movement when advancing the indicator along the arbor where the tool would cut and that is the angle, then just use a indicator or travel dial to cut the length, you only have to match the small end, a taper is a taper and the length can be long if the additional protrusion does not affect the project, but the small end needs to be correct.
A quite, quite brilliant video with outstanding explanations, demonstrations and sketches all the way through. The maths although complex, and therefore challenging, was delivered at a pace and manner that even a dunderhead like me could follow without getting lost! Clearly the quality and sharpness of outside edges of the holes in that "ring gauge" are critical so that they don't alter in any way when being used. Can one purchase ring gauges of a tougher material than yours - ie in effect the reverse of the pin gauges?
Hi Dan, I have used female round punching dies in the past to take measurements like this. They are hard and flat on the contact surface. Commercial ring gages have a radius on the lead in that interferes with the measuring. The edges are actually pretty tough as long as you treat them carefully and there is enough meat around the hole to support it. Thin tubing is not a good choice. The hole must be round so I generally bore them. Cheers, Tom
Tom, Have you tried a polarizing filter for the camera to reduce glare? I'll bet you have a new appreciation for cinematographers after doing these videos… Keep up the great work. All this reminds me of being back in trade school and it stimulating synapses that have been dormant for years.
An even better method, which we used to use in the cinematography business, is to put polarising film over the lights themselves...and then use a polarising filter on the camera lens too. This will entirely eliminate reflections from shiny surfaces. Not so easy to achieve when using natural light though...unless you cover your entire window in polarising film (available from Koday & Lee filters) which is F-expensive.
Why couldn't you have done this a few weeks back, on friday I had to cut a B16 taper, never done it before but my bodge it method seemed to work, chuck runs true at least lol.
Great video as always, thanks. I just thought I might point out that what you're doing at 17 minutes is not "tangent to the minus one power": it's the arc tangent, also known as the inverse tangent. The inverse tangent is used to find an angle as you show here. If you did do "tangent to the minus one power", it would actually be just 1/tan, which is a trig function called the cotangent. It's not a very frequently used function.
Hi Frank, What I said was its the tangent raised to the power of negative one. The arc that the tangent is. Direct angle conversion. Thanks for the comment. Cheers, Tom
oxtoolco The button on the calculator is labelled tan^-1. That button is, in fact, the inverse tangent or arctangent function, which is different than "the tangent raised to the power of negative one"; that would be (tan x)^-1 = 1/(tan x), which is called the cotangent. For example, a 3-4-5 triangle, the angle in the 4-5 crotch is the arctangent of 3/4. The way you would calculate this on most calculators is by pressing [3] [4] [tan^-1]. What you get is an angle, 0.6435 rad or 36.87 degrees. This is not the same as "the tangent raised to the power of negative one", which would simply be (3/4)^(-1) = 4/3, and it's not an angle: it's the ratio of adjacent over opposite. Similarly, the tangent is the ratio of lengths of the opposite over adjacent sides.
I figure these angles with a protractor,,,mechanically, much easier then the tangent cosign math,,, lay out on center axis and protract angle,,, my father is a mathematical genius and is amazed with my quick methods.
Hey Stan, I don't think so. This series is to show how to do this with minimal fancy pants tooling. Hey now we can make live centers and all kinds of hard pointy things. Cheers, Tom
Lots of ways to skin a cat but what about a concentric piece of stock between centres. (Z Axis). The compound set at roughly the required degrees off Z Axis. A dial gauge (free to rotate then lock), is fitted on the compound with its spindle connecting the stock at 90deg. Zero is set. The compound is then cranked either in or out 1000. Dial gauge now reads 31.73 Thou. ASN(31.73/1000)= 1.81830 deg OR Sin 1.8184 x 1000 = 31.73. This method is working to achieve the dial gauge reading of 31-32 Thou on a 1000 compound Travel. Trial and error each time, yet with making certain the spindle reconnects the axis at 90deg precisely and before the next try. In short, SIN(req angle) x compound travel) = dial gauge reading req. (Spindle at 90 deg by turning left, turning right, then centred to have it at 90deg) With calculators now having all the Trig functions, I think its far easier to work this way and will welcome other's comments also.
Tom Tee Hi Tom, There are problems with this method setting precise angles. The indicator has to be exactly perpendicular to the axis of rotation to make this work. Pretty tough to set the indicator each time you bump the angle a little. Also if you have a round in the spindle you need to sweep vertically to assure you are on the vertical center of the part. Most tailstocks are low unless the lathe is brand new. I showed a similar method in one of the vids in this series. Thanks for the great suggestion and comment. All the best, Tom
Hey Tom, Thanks for video, cool methods, however your first method appeared flawed, hence the failure in your readings. Maybe it was just my perception from video, but if you viewed your indicator from the tailstock, was the indicator arm perpendicular to where you were measuring? In measuring for dimension indicator arm has to be perpendicular to work being measured, and even that will deviate as the indicator arm moves. A regular dial indicator coming straight down would give you better results.
C Connelly Hi C, The movement of the indicator was perpendicular to the object. I moved the slide to take the measurement. The flaw in this first method is it really doesn't have the resolution to determine the angle to really close limits like you would need to make a high contact fit. I think the cosine error is what you are referring to. If you do a practical test over a short range measurement like this you will see it is not measurable if you are reasonably close to perpendicular which I was in the first setup. Good observation and question. Thanks for the comment. Cheers, Tom
I had to bore out a L 00 taper not too long ago for a faceplate that had the incorrect angle since it was not touching the entire surface when I hand rotated it on the spindle (I took the key off). I had no idea what the angle was and even if I did, I would not get it as accurate as it needed to be. So I mounted a tenth dial indicator and used the compound rest to match the angle of the L 00 spindle on the lathe. It took a while to adjust the compound rest but I got it within 2 tenths. I then mounted the face place on the lathe and took a skim cut _using the compound rest_ and just enough to clean up the entire bore. I worked for me.
Hey Gnosis, How did you determine the original taper was not matching the spindle? After you recut it did you blue it to check the mate or did you do something else? Cheers, Tom
oxtoolco Hi Tom! love your videos! Yes, you are correct and I forgot to point that out. The faceplate -actually it's a backplate for a new chuck- was running out 0.015" on the face and for the life of me I could not figure out why; I made sure it was clean before mounting it. The rough finish on the taper looked suspicious. So I used blue die on the spindle and hand spun the back plate on it to confirm that the backplate bore was indeed the culprit. It was new. I got it at Tools4cheap and I suppose I got what I paid for hence they did a poor job boring out the taper. I assumed it was going to be ground but for $104, grinding it is like batteries -it's not included. lol..
Hey Tom, great vid... One issue though... The last couple of videos you've posted seem to heavily saturated. The glare off white surfaces make what you're doing impossible to see. I did try adjusting my monitor without luck.
Hey Jarrett, The sun shines through my shop windows. In addition to that Chuck helped me change all my shop lights. I forgot to dial back the exposure a bit for the additional light. Cheers, Tom
I have been out of school for 20 years now and back then I thought what the hell do I need to know this math for. Well I work in a steel fab shop and use this stuff almost every day, I wish I had payed a little more attention thou Great video
Hi Tom, I'm thinking that must be rather important to get the edge on that gage just right if you using it to measure the taper and not just comparing one taper to another by doing relative measurements you need a clean edges but they can't be chamfered or rounded that would cause an error in your measured length
Hi Lasse, You are exactly right. The edge cannot be deburred or chamfered at all. Hardened and lapped is the best. You can use hardened round punch dies for the ring gages. They are fairly cheap and have the crisp edge you need to use this technique. Cheers, Tom
Hi, this video is packed with great information, thanks! I would like to see what you are typing into the calculator to calculate angle, my calculator just says "Syntax Error" when I attempt it.
Hey Andy, There is a lot of static on the web about Cosine error. At very low angles and small displacements it is typically unreadable on a .0005 indicator. You can do a simple test with your indicator and a height gage to prove it to yourself. Cheers, Tom
I used to race motorcycles and love the road racing on public roads. I am a fan the IOM TT. Actually I root for the big guy John McGuinnes normally but he broke his spindly supermodel wrist recently. I had to switch to my next favorite racers. Cheers, Tom
oxtoolco I'm hearing you! In a previous life I visited the IOM on business a few times and had a drive round the circuit. Never got round to going during TT week though [/regret] Have you seen some of the TV shows Guy Martin has done? Really, genuinely entertaining stuff. And if anyone likes the stuff Guy Martin does, search youtube for Fred Dibnah. Kind of like Guy Martin's spiritual godfather.
Is there any functional reason not to set the angle using something like a sine bar and adjustable parallel off a test bar or similar - then cut till you get a clean surface, find/part back to the correct minor diameter and then find the major and relieve behind it? I'm currently debating how to cut a 33 to a Jacobs E which I've drawn out in sketch up and the E taper can be cut inside of a 33's meat so I've purchased an arbor with the 33 taper - I'm now debating how to cut the angle considering its hardened and I don't own a heavy lathe - so I'm debating chucking the taper in my Deckel SO grinder - truing the face of a new grinding wheel setting the angle using a small sine bar across the face of the wheel - grind it to the taper then it will be overly long/sharp so I figured I could make a minor diameter ring gauge and cut the puppy down.
Hi Philip, Setups with sine bars in the lathe are pretty sketchy,. The main point here is you have to be able to check your part. Its not just setting the angle. You have to measure what you make so you know you got it correct. There is an initial setting and then bump and check until you have the desired accuracy. Sine bar does not assure a correct part. Hope that makes sense. Thanks for the comment. Cheers, Tom
oxtoolco at4 isnt a hard target to reach, im not sure if he was just saying that to give you an answer, as at3 is usually the minimum spec for tapers, and those short steep tapers dont hold that well anyway. . thanks for the good videos Tom, always an interesting journey
I watched all 4 parts of this series and have to be honest.. I could use a little more depth on the math sections. For example the sine (sign?) portion etc... Need some more info on the math formulas being used. ALSO could you go into the long tapers and morse tapers too?
+Rj Lewis Hi RJ, This was roughly a Morse taper. Math is the same for any taper you need. Math videos are not super popular. Lots of online resources for triangle solutions. Thanks for the comment. Cheers, Tom
Awesome video as always. After watching this I feel like I need to take some math classes. I was curious about that calculator you have and I checked it out..........holy shit over $400 bucks for a new one on Amazon. Whiskey tango foxtrot!
HP12C shouldn't cost more than $100... I use HP 35S calculators these days - ~$41 - $45 online My HP 32SIIs have mostly died of old age - at least the one in my shop apron still works! I cannot believe the price on Amazon for an HP 33S - they were el cheapo replacements for the 32S, and are only OK at best... Why so many calculators? One on my desk at work, one on my desk at home, a couple in briefcases, a couple in toolboxes near machine tools, and one in the pocket of my shop apron... I don't like to have to hunt to find a 'cruncher when I'm working...
Good idea having calc's everywhere, its like pens and sharpies! I still have and use my TI35 I have had since engineering school that i normally use for everything.
Hey Kyle, I've had my 41CV, 11C and 15C for something like 30 years now. The used ones go for nutty prices on ebay. The 12C is a sissy financial model for bean counters. Cheers, Tom
oxtoolco Hey Tom -- I still have a printer and magnetic card reader for the HP41C. I'd run engineering calculations (bode plots) overnight... hence the printer would spit the results out while I slept (& annoy the heck out of my roommate, half the fun!). Pre-PC days! These days I just use "Droid48" on my Phone.
A fitting T-shirt for this week. RIP Karl Harris.... and indeed, godspeed to Cameron. Oh, I finally got tired of watching and not doing. Pround new owner of an Atlas 12". Thanks to Adam, Chuck and Tubalcain as well. Up next, knee mill......
Tell me one thing, just a hypothetical question, why use tapers, why not just keep it straight. What is the reason why machinist did start cutting and using tapers...
Tapered objects are also self-centering, or in other words they always center the same way. And in some cases also provide holding, like when the taper angle is below say 1.5 degrees and that's called a selflocking taper.
Mr Lipton
Giving credit where it is due...I really enjoy listening to an intelligent person explain what they are doing. I liked this video because you made doing what is quite complex easy for me to understand. Thank you. As always, I'm looking forward to the rest. Brian Tharp
Hi Brian,
Thanks for the nice comment and compliment.
Cheers,
Tom
Excellent in depth taper tutorial Tom, everything you were afraid to ask about tapers and why you were afraid in the first place. Rational explanation = priceless information. Thanks Tom.
Hey John,
Thanks for the comment.
Cheers,
Tom
fourmula pleesh
giv me
Excellent Tom,
Very in depth but, clear and easy to understand for a hobby guy like myself! Looking forward to the next episode.
Thanks,
Ray
Hey Ray,
Thanks for the comment. Part two coming soon.
Cheers,
Tom
This worths the wait. A fantastic structured video with alternative ways and shop math. Besides it was not boring like attending a lecture. Looking forward part 2.
Thanks
Mehmet
Hey Mehmet,
Thanks for the comment. Part 2 coming soon.
Cheers,
Tom
Lots to take in on this subject Master Tom, and you show it in fine fashion! This is why it's important to understand the math involved, and I can't say I'm that good at it. It's great your showing how to machine a taper with nothing to indicate, because all of my jobs I have had a sample to get the taper attachment, or compound dialed in to. Looking forward to the rest of the series. Thanks for sharing with us all!
Adam
i always indicate the sample taper true with the compound or make a reference for setup taper gage to indicate for the next time i run the job, to take the time to set up to cut a taper from scratch and not have a reference gage to indicate the next time you have to cut the same taper would not be too wise and also would be extremely inefficient. if you have to take the time to start from scratch to set the taper up anyway it is extremely wise to make a sample taper gage to indicate true to the compound if you need to cut the same taper in the future. i personally have found this method to be the fastest, easiest, most efficient way of cutting tapers
Hey Adam,
Thanks for the comment buddy. Its all pretty straightforward when you have a sample to match to. The trick is getting started with just the book and a chunk of material. Have fun on your trip to Keith's get together.
Talk to you soon,
Tom
Erik Grahn Hey Eric,
If you have a sample its all pretty easy. The trick I was trying to show here is how you get going with nothing but the book and a machine. I agree if your set up and its a taper you may cut again its probably worth making a sample to throw in the toolbox for the next time.
Cheers,
Tom
Tom,
I thank you , Adam , Keith , and Keith for taking part in me becoming a better millwright . The tricks and tips are priceless !
Always My Best ,
Tighe
Hey Tighe,
Thanks for the comment.
Cheers,
Tom
Hi Tom,
Excellent reminder on tapers, math and measuring, some of that stuff was getting hidden in my brain, good thing to get it stimulated once in a while...
thanks and cheers,
Pierre
Hey Pierre,
Exercise is good for the brain as well as the back. Thanks for the comment.
cheers,
Tom
You guys really are something for taking time out to help people if they're trying to learn. Seriously...
Hey, anyone doing this as a newbie i wouldn't try u might want to learn prints, then setting up gages, mics etc. taper, threads tapered, sorry....tapered threads....thread diam & avg. thread diameter if dealing with springing (ovality)...thread lead stuff like that.... that's considering you have ran a lathe or mill or whatever.... the math isn't that hard don't let it confuse you if u can count to 100 add subtract the realize fractions and decimals and division of.... once you got that the rest is a breeze.
But, all these individuals taking time to make these videos....appreciate them because I'm telling you it takes some endurance.
Excellent video Tom. If I had to try and figure it out I would not have thought of the ring gauge technique which is very simple and accurate.
I am 100% in favor of these types of instructional videos. Please keep them coming.
Hey Steve,
See what a simple drill press shaft repair turns into? If you start talking about some of these things they really blow up into major subjects.
cheers,
Tom
Tom,
It's great to see that my shaft is in such capable hands. I did not realize my request for help with a messed up 40's drill press would end up a well received video series. By the time you're finished with the shaft, it will probably have a taper that is more accurate than when it was new.
I have enjoyed all of your videos. They make me want to run out and buy some machines and make some parts, but the wife says no. I will just have to live vicariously through you and the other machinists on TH-cam.
Thanks for all of your work for the benefit of the greater community.
Looking forward to the next installment,
Kurt
Hey Kurt,
Wait till we get to the gold plating of the shaft video....... We sure can milk a cow for all its worth around here.
Thanks for the comment.
Cheers,
Tom
Not sure what to say, except I am very IMPRESSED !! Thanks !
For all of us descendants of the Manx. Motto: "Quocunque Jeceris Stabit" (Latin)
"Whithersoever you throw it, it will stand"
Keep up the great work Tom, and thanks for reminding all that the TT is alive and well.
Craig
Hey Craig,
Thanks for the bit of history. Don't be surprised if you see it on the whiteboard.
Cheers,
Tom
Tom this was one of the best so far. The drawings really were helpful to me. Well done. Mrs. Pate, the geometry teacher, would have been proud.
Hey Eric,
Mrs Pate would be keeping me after class. I was too busy playing in metalshop....
Cheers,
Tom
thanks Tom, i really enjoy your style of teaching. looking forward to the next installment.
michael
A lot of information that's actually understandable. Impressive job of instruction!
Tom - Vista, CA
Hey Tom,
Thanks for the comment.
Cheers,
Tom
Thank you for this it is GOLD! going into my watch later list and I appriceate this lesson very much!
There is a lot of meat on that bone Tom. Very big thanks for the show-and-tell on taper measuring and the math. Love your HP 11C. I have a 12C on my desk and I had recently installed the 11C app on my phone for math problems like you presented here. Nice to be able to follow along with the same calculator (emulator in my case) that you did your math solving with. He shoots, he scores, he earns the win with this video!
Gary
Hey Gary,
I have the RPN calculator app on my phone. I also have a 15C and a couple of 41CV's Wish I bought some backups when you could get them easily.
Cheers,
Tom
I really enjoy a good video that beats a subject to death. While I don't have the equipment to apply every method shown, now I know I can attack a taper problem and figure it out. Thanks Tom. Maybe this will become my new "first check" channel each day when I come home. ;-) Clog up the hole and put a bird house outside.
Love the Legs of Man T Shirt Tom. I will be back across on the Isle of Man for the TT motorcycle racing in June this year, (2023).
Great video Tom. I'm a fairly recent subscriber. love your presentation style, and this one in particular. Can't wait for the rest of this series
Hi Eric,
Thanks for the comment. Second in this series coming out soon.
Cheers,
Tom
One of your best, REALLY enjoyed this one. Well explained, great practical application of mentally dusty trig classes...thanks Tom
Hey Steve,
Thanks for the comment and compliment.
Cheers,
Tom
Tom,
Nicely done. Thanks for sharing you time and talent. Looking forward to setting the angle on the compound and making some chips.
Chuck
The great thing y about this series Tom, is that it is one thing for a person to read the method somewhere - but a totally better experience to see the theory applied in visual and real world situation.You also demonstrated three methods all hanging off the same set ups on lathe etc...so the learning experience ( for me anyway) is made easier and (certainly) more enjoyable..
Good thing I actually enjoyed Trig and geometry in high school....if only it was taught from a practical perspective ..
Great Stuff and thanks for posting these.
Pete
+Peter A Hi Peter,
I would probably have to watch my own video again if I needed a taper. Thanks for the comment.
Cheers,
Tom
The HP 15, WOW that brings back memories. Had one in college. Reverse Polish notation, forgot all about that.Looks like she has seen a fair amount of use. Good job on the trig lesson!
Hey Doug,
Nothing too new in this shop. We just keep all the old stuff running. Thanks for the comment.
cheers,
Tom
Wow!
That was one intense lesson, but very well presented. Tom, that should be seen by every High school Trignometry class. Why learn math? To have the skill to make things with precision. Im afraid we have turned into a society that thinks only computers can do math.
Cant wait to see more of this. Great job explaining the methodology. the sketches make is easy to follow. Love this stuff!
Bill
Hey Bill,
Thanks for the comment and compliment. Sure beats figuring the height of a theoretical flagpole like we did in school.
Cheers,
Tom
Tom, I watched this video all of the way through a couple times now! I'm going to save this one as one of my very favorite videos! I have been wanting to learn more about this subject for a long time. You have really done a great job and answered some of the questions I have had about measuring tapers, but did not know how to ask let alone who to ask. Can't wait to see how you set up the lathe to turn a taper to 5 seconds or less! Thanks Mr. Wizard. All the best! Your student, Bob Troxell.
Hey Bob,
It will take me more than 5 seconds to cut the taper..... Just kidding. Thanks for the nice comment. Its like pandora's box. Once you start messing around with tapers it quickly blows up into a fairly complex subject.
Cheers,
Tom
Awesome trigonometric acrobatics Tom, brought me back to my high school days :-)
Hey Joe,
The great Indian Chief SOHCAHTOA approves.
Cheers,
Tom
Tom, this is truly a master's class video loaded with information. I've pondered how to measure the distance between two points on a taper, but it never occurred to me to use a simple gauge like you demonstrate, and I don't recall having seen that anywhere. Clever!
(A subtle note: the notation tan-¹ or arctan is read, "the angle whose tangent is X" not "raised to the power".)
Have you considered trying a polarizing filter on your camera to eliminate the glare on the dials and white paper?
Thanks for a truly exceptional presentation! I predict this one will go viral! : )
Very cool, interesting lesson, Prof, Tom.
Great videos, digging the "Isle of Man" shirt too.
The Manx TT - man and machine working with really tight tolerences! Very informative video Tom :)
Hey Steve,
I think I would rather split hairs on a precision taper than with a stone wall going one eighty on a motorcycle. In my younger days that would have been my kinda racing.
cheers,
Tom
Very well made video Tom
I have just been playing with a morse taper
Regards
John
Hey John,
Thanks for the comment.
Cheers,
Tom
Hey Tom,
Or should I address you as Professor Ox? Thanks for the concise explaination of determining tapers. Like you stated, it's quite an involved process to get stuff within tolerance. You stated that your gear tooth vernier gage was stiff from lack of use. That sounds like a personal problem, if there ever was one. And just the other day, you were playing with your Johnson! :-) Enough humor! Thanks again for the lesson on determining tapers.
Regards,
Oxen Dave
Hey Dave,
Thanks for the comment. I actually lubricated the vernier before I shot the video. It was really stiff before I shot the segment.
cheers,
Tom
Nice job Tom good presentation on a complex subject. Plus it was all free other than my isp monthly bill!
Hey Bill,
Thanks for the comment.
Cheers,
Tom
BETTER taught than some high school teachers. THANKS.
Hi Jeffry,
I'm glad you were able to follow it. Thanks for the comment.
Cheers.
Tom
Just like day 1 of Engineering 101, Always draw the picture, always write out the equations. Nice applied geometry lesson.
I think I would not be able to function without a sketch. Thanks for the comment.
Cheers,
Tom
Like that a lot, love the maths, can't wait for part two.
Rob
Hey Rob,
Thanks for the comment. I can almost hear all the calculators clicking away around the world working out angles.
Cheers,
Tom
You got it.
Rob
This is why I love maths and trigonometry. It’s almost magic.
I have been cutting the taper for a taper lock bushing. so this is timely info, thanks.
Hi Glen,
Thanks for the comment.
Cheers,
Tom
That birdie must really love you. You shooed it out once and it came back to sing beautiful music in your ear......LOL
Tom,
Yer bird buddy makes my pet birds at home chirp back like they are making a long distance call . Its pretty funny actually! Thanks for the great info as always. I love using the math to prove setups! Ps...flipped through the KBC catalog and saw your book. Congrats! Thanks again Tom!
Hi Eddie,
Great news. You can hear the bird also. Phew, I thought it was just me in my head. You know they say things to me......
Cheers,
Tom
haha...glad i'm not the only one! :)
Hey Mr. Tom. I noticed the 15c in one video and then an 11c in another. Thought I was loosing my mind. Haha. Very nice looking calculator. Pricey. But nice. Did some research on purchasing one. Great vids as always. Keep up the good work. ;)
Thanks for the info and the shop math refresher. It has been a while since the last time I have needed to calculate an angle and it was not clear in my mind anymore. It all just came back to me, I am the sort of person that is good at math only if I am activly doing math problems.
Hi James,
Thanks for the comment. It helps to have a real world problem you need to solve. Its were reality meets the application.
Cheers,
Tom
One other advantage of using a reverse Polish notation calculator: I can leave it laying around and pretty much no one will pick it up and try to use it!
RPN is the *only* way to run a number cruncher!
Cheers!
Eric
awesome. Thanks for the great info Tom.
Hi David,
Thanks for the comment.
Cheers,
Tom
Great work yet again!
A very informative video. I just turned a few tapers with my taper attachment, setup mostly by luck (some good, and some bad!).
P.S. In the video at 37:00..."That's what she said!"
Hey Jack,
We will get to machine setup in the next episode. First you have to be able to measure what you do.
Cheers,
Tom
Awesome lesson, thanks Tom
Very interesting, lots of info here. Thanks!
Hi Tom,
Many thanks for the interesting videos! I didn't see this subject discussed yet so excuse me if I am repeating. I have struggled with making accurate tapers for some time and looked forward to your approach.
Regarding the ring gage approach, I think an error analysis is in order. Presumably, you are using a standard set of pin gages which increment by .001" to measure the diameters. This means that a measurement of a hole diameter will a best be within +/- .0005" so a diameter difference measurement of .044" could actually be .043" to .045". In practice the tolerance range could be slightly higher due to the subjective nature of the "feel" of the fit. Looking at the worst case scenarios, the diameter difference divided by the distance difference ranges from .0620 to .06500. Dividing by 2 to get the radius difference ratios and taking the arctan gives a range of 1.7784 to 1.8615 degrees for the measured angle. Actually the range is somewhat greater due to the uncertainty in the dial indicator reading.
The whole point of this exercise is to illustrate the danger of relying on measurements when dealing with small differences. I ran into this problem professionally when we tried to characterize a small tapered socket on a molded part. D1/D2 was approximately .04"/.02" with a 4 degree angle and a hydraulic seal and external hard stop with the mating part and sixteen mold cavities with were involved. We went through quite a few iterations with the mold maker before we came to an agreement.
Hi Robert,
Thanks for the excellent comment. You illustrate some of the problems with measuring tapers accurately. The pins were indeed .001 steps but minus pins. This means the discrimination tolerance is one sided not +/- as the minus pin determines "no smaller than" The analysis of the tolerance stackup is tricky for certain. I don't expect this shop grade home made tooling to discriminate much closer than +/- thirty seconds of arc. We will close the loop in the taper discussion by checking the angle with a sine bar method to verify or quantify the resolution possible. Careful setup and multiple readings can improve results but like all measurements there is always some uncertainty.
All the best,
Tom
Love the Isle of man shirt!
You may want to try putting a piece of neutral density filter over your indicator to eliminate glare. I very much enjoy all your videos!
Hi Yan,
That is a good idea. I tried a polarizing filter on the camera and it makes little difference. There is just too much light in the shop coming from too many angles to screen it easily. I'll have to try that.
Cheers,
Tom
Very late to this video but excellent job. You made me pull out my Machiniery's Handbook. For what it's worth, the tolerance for Morse Taper is .oo2/12". - couldn't find a tolerance for Jacobs. If you stick with taper instead of angle, you can eliminate the trig for determining accuracy.
I know this is old but was looking through taper videos and saw it. Your gages are a very cool way to check datum diameters as long as viewers follow your instructions about sharp burr free corners and make sure its square. One comment on the original angle error. The tip of the test indicator used to sweep the top of the taper looked to be angled maybe 15 degrees. Depending on the model of indicator it probably had a cosine error value of maybe .96 meaning you had closer to .0254 then .0265. That would put it pretty close to the angle spec. I think a dial indicator would be better than the test in this situation or it needs to be very horizontal.
great video, Tom.
Hey Flip,
Where have you been? Thanks for the comment.
Cheers,
Tom
I have been looking forward to this one! very well done and presented other than the
exposer is completely blown with too much light in places, the indicator dials, the papers you are showing and even the back of your hands are blown totally white!!!
It's much better with the yellow paper later in the vid!
Looking forward to how to set the compound dead nuts to cut that perfectly measured/ calculated angle?
Love your stuff!!!!!
Hey Gent,
Not all of us work in a shop with only one lightbulb in it....... Just kidding. I did forgot to lock the auto exposure when I was on the dark background. Whoops.
All the best,
Tom
I also use an rpn calculator: my old HP-41. Banged around in my shop for at least 20 years and still going. No = sign lol
b2major9th HP used to advertise the 41 as a calculator with No Equal. ha!
thank you for the video very informative on the short tapers I also noticed that your shirt is from the Isle of Man I am a Dunbar and I've been there.
Hi Myron,
I would like to see the TT in person some day. Pretty balsy stuff. Thanks for the comment.
Cheers,
Tom
Obrigado meu amigo por compartilhar mais uma dica pra nos leigos na area como sempre aumentando nosso conhecimento. ABRAÇOS!!!!
Hi Roberto,
Thanks for the nice comment. Glad you liked the video.
All the best,
Tom
Interesting watching these older videos. On that ring gauge, how do you ensure a sharp corner? The accuracy of that thing is going to suffer if you have any sort of a chamfer at all on the corners.
Place the commercial arbor between centers and adjust your compound rest angle so the indicator has no movement when advancing the indicator along the arbor where the tool would cut and that is the angle, then just use a indicator or travel dial to cut the length, you only have to match the small end, a taper is a taper and the length can be long if the additional protrusion does not affect the project, but the small end needs to be correct.
Great video!
very good lesson,
thank you
Great video. Next time i need a Morse or Jacobs taper I now exactly what to do,........................... buy it.
Hey Exil,
Good point. Who wants to fuss around chasing milliradians when you can buy one for seven bucks.
Cheers,
Tom
*****
yea, that too LOL. My bad
A quite, quite brilliant video with outstanding explanations, demonstrations and sketches all the way through. The maths although complex, and therefore challenging, was delivered at a pace and manner that even a dunderhead like me could follow without getting lost!
Clearly the quality and sharpness of outside edges of the holes in that "ring gauge" are critical so that they don't alter in any way when being used. Can one purchase ring gauges of a tougher material than yours - ie in effect the reverse of the pin gauges?
Hi Dan,
I have used female round punching dies in the past to take measurements like this. They are hard and flat on the contact surface. Commercial ring gages have a radius on the lead in that interferes with the measuring. The edges are actually pretty tough as long as you treat them carefully and there is enough meat around the hole to support it. Thin tubing is not a good choice. The hole must be round so I generally bore them.
Cheers,
Tom
Tom,
Have you tried a polarizing filter for the camera to reduce glare?
I'll bet you have a new appreciation for cinematographers after doing these videos…
Keep up the great work. All this reminds me of being back in trade school and it stimulating synapses that have been dormant for years.
An even better method, which we used to use in the cinematography business, is to put polarising film over the lights themselves...and then use a polarising filter on the camera lens too. This will entirely eliminate reflections from shiny surfaces. Not so easy to achieve when using natural light though...unless you cover your entire window in polarising film (available from Koday & Lee filters) which is F-expensive.
I like the happy bird.
Clear walk thru. thanks
RPN Calculator! The only way to crunch numbers.
I think the indicator method would be fine, but you need to measure both sides of the taper and average them to remove the effects tailstock errors.
wow thanks, i was trying to make a taper strait from day one. don't feel so dumb.
Starring "Yellow Chicken Scratch Pad" !!
Great video
Why couldn't you have done this a few weeks back, on friday I had to cut a B16 taper, never done it before but my bodge it method seemed to work, chuck runs true at least lol.
Hey Cask,
I know a little too much a little too late. Story of my life.
Cheers,
Tom
Great video as always, thanks. I just thought I might point out that what you're doing at 17 minutes is not "tangent to the minus one power": it's the arc tangent, also known as the inverse tangent. The inverse tangent is used to find an angle as you show here.
If you did do "tangent to the minus one power", it would actually be just 1/tan, which is a trig function called the cotangent. It's not a very frequently used function.
Hi Frank,
What I said was its the tangent raised to the power of negative one. The arc that the tangent is. Direct angle conversion. Thanks for the comment.
Cheers,
Tom
oxtoolco The button on the calculator is labelled tan^-1. That button is, in fact, the inverse tangent or arctangent function, which is different than "the tangent raised to the power of negative one"; that would be (tan x)^-1 = 1/(tan x), which is called the cotangent.
For example, a 3-4-5 triangle, the angle in the 4-5 crotch is the arctangent of 3/4. The way you would calculate this on most calculators is by pressing [3] [4] [tan^-1]. What you get is an angle, 0.6435 rad or 36.87 degrees.
This is not the same as "the tangent raised to the power of negative one", which would simply be (3/4)^(-1) = 4/3, and it's not an angle: it's the ratio of adjacent over opposite. Similarly, the tangent is the ratio of lengths of the opposite over adjacent sides.
I figure these angles with a protractor,,,mechanically, much easier then the tangent cosign math,,, lay out on center axis and protract angle,,, my father is a mathematical genius and is amazed with my quick methods.
You gonna use your snazzy new Du-More to finish that taper? That was a nice little unit. :)
Hey Stan,
I don't think so. This series is to show how to do this with minimal fancy pants tooling. Hey now we can make live centers and all kinds of hard pointy things.
Cheers,
Tom
Yea, I have a live center project I would love to get started on, I think I sketched something for you on my visit.
That's some quantum stuff Tom
Hey Kelly,
Its basically a gold plated cork. Thanks for the comment.
Cheers,
Tom
Lots of ways to skin a cat but what about a concentric piece of stock between centres. (Z Axis). The compound set at roughly the required degrees off Z Axis. A dial gauge (free to rotate then lock), is fitted on the compound with its spindle connecting the stock at 90deg. Zero is set. The compound is then cranked either in or out 1000. Dial gauge now reads 31.73 Thou. ASN(31.73/1000)= 1.81830 deg OR Sin 1.8184 x 1000 = 31.73. This method is working to achieve the dial gauge reading of 31-32 Thou on a 1000 compound Travel. Trial and error each time, yet with making certain the spindle reconnects the axis at 90deg precisely and before the next try. In short, SIN(req angle) x compound travel) = dial gauge reading req. (Spindle at 90 deg by turning left, turning right, then centred to have it at 90deg) With calculators now having all the Trig functions, I think its far easier to work this way and will welcome other's comments also.
Tom Tee Hi Tom,
There are problems with this method setting precise angles. The indicator has to be exactly perpendicular to the axis of rotation to make this work. Pretty tough to set the indicator each time you bump the angle a little. Also if you have a round in the spindle you need to sweep vertically to assure you are on the vertical center of the part. Most tailstocks are low unless the lathe is brand new. I showed a similar method in one of the vids in this series. Thanks for the great suggestion and comment.
All the best,
Tom
Hi Tom...very good job....but, please, set some light control of the camera you use because paper or indicator scale are not visible at all....
Hi Salvo,
Thanks for the comment. Yeah that was pretty bad on the white paper. Don't worry you didn't miss anything important.
Cheers,
Tom
nicee manx shirt, ever been over to see the TT? noticed ur tt sticker on your helmet aswell....into bikes Tom?
Hey Bub,
Yes I am. Sorry to say I don't have one right now. Too busy making machine work video's......
Cheers,
Tom
Hey Tom,
Thanks for video, cool methods, however your first method appeared flawed, hence the failure in your readings. Maybe it was just my perception from video, but if you viewed your indicator from the tailstock, was the indicator arm perpendicular to where you were measuring? In measuring for dimension indicator arm has to be perpendicular to work being measured, and even that will deviate as the indicator arm moves. A regular dial indicator coming straight down would give you better results.
C Connelly Hi C,
The movement of the indicator was perpendicular to the object. I moved the slide to take the measurement. The flaw in this first method is it really doesn't have the resolution to determine the angle to really close limits like you would need to make a high contact fit. I think the cosine error is what you are referring to. If you do a practical test over a short range measurement like this you will see it is not measurable if you are reasonably close to perpendicular which I was in the first setup. Good observation and question. Thanks for the comment.
Cheers,
Tom
Very very good video--------thanks
I might have to do that to my drill press arbor
I had to bore out a L 00 taper not too long ago for a faceplate that had the incorrect angle since it was not touching the entire surface when I hand rotated it on the spindle (I took the key off). I had no idea what the angle was and even if I did, I would not get it as accurate as it needed to be. So I mounted a tenth dial indicator and used the compound rest to match the angle of the L 00 spindle on the lathe. It took a while to adjust the compound rest but I got it within 2 tenths. I then mounted the face place on the lathe and took a skim cut _using the compound rest_ and just enough to clean up the entire bore. I worked for me.
Hey Gnosis,
How did you determine the original taper was not matching the spindle? After you recut it did you blue it to check the mate or did you do something else?
Cheers,
Tom
oxtoolco
Hi Tom! love your videos!
Yes, you are correct and I forgot to point that out. The faceplate -actually it's a backplate for a new chuck- was running out 0.015" on the face and for the life of me I could not figure out why; I made sure it was clean before mounting it. The rough finish on the taper looked suspicious. So I used blue die on the spindle and hand spun the back plate on it to confirm that the backplate bore was indeed the culprit. It was new. I got it at Tools4cheap and I suppose I got what I paid for hence they did a poor job boring out the taper. I assumed it was going to be ground but for $104, grinding it is like batteries -it's not included. lol..
Hey Tom, great vid...
One issue though... The last couple of videos you've posted seem to heavily saturated. The glare off white surfaces make what you're doing impossible to see. I did try adjusting my monitor without luck.
Hey Jarrett,
The sun shines through my shop windows. In addition to that Chuck helped me change all my shop lights. I forgot to dial back the exposure a bit for the additional light.
Cheers,
Tom
I have been out of school for 20 years now and back then I thought what the hell do I need to know this math for. Well I work in a steel fab shop and use this stuff almost every day, I wish I had payed a little more attention thou
Great video
Hi John,
Thanks for the comment. You need the practical application then the stuff will stick to the walls.
Cheers,
Tom
CMMs work great for that kind of stuff.
Hi Tom,
I'm thinking that must be rather important to get the edge on that gage just right if you using it to measure the taper and not just comparing one taper to another by doing relative measurements
you need a clean edges but they can't be chamfered or rounded that would cause an error in your measured length
Hi Lasse,
You are exactly right. The edge cannot be deburred or chamfered at all. Hardened and lapped is the best. You can use hardened round punch dies for the ring gages. They are fairly cheap and have the crisp edge you need to use this technique.
Cheers,
Tom
Hi, this video is packed with great information, thanks!
I would like to see what you are typing into the calculator to calculate angle, my calculator just says "Syntax Error" when I attempt it.
+junglemap Hey Jungle,
That's better than mine. Mine says operator error. Thanks for the comment.
Cheers,
Tom
+oxtoolco Not everyone knows Trigonometry, do you mind explaining the calculator steps?
Hiya Tom, I wonder if cosine error on that DTI played a part in how far the measurement was off?
Hey Andy,
There is a lot of static on the web about Cosine error. At very low angles and small displacements it is typically unreadable on a .0005 indicator. You can do a simple test with your indicator and a height gage to prove it to yourself.
Cheers,
Tom
Thanks for another educational treat Tom.
I'm interested to know what your connection with Cameron Donald and Guy Martin is?
I used to race motorcycles and love the road racing on public roads. I am a fan the IOM TT. Actually I root for the big guy John McGuinnes normally but he broke his spindly supermodel wrist recently. I had to switch to my next favorite racers.
Cheers,
Tom
oxtoolco I'm hearing you!
In a previous life I visited the IOM on business a few times and had a drive round the circuit. Never got round to going during TT week though [/regret]
Have you seen some of the TV shows Guy Martin has done? Really, genuinely entertaining stuff. And if anyone likes the stuff Guy Martin does, search youtube for Fred Dibnah. Kind of like Guy Martin's spiritual godfather.
Ok I have a question. What machinist has actually made a 8 inch scroll metal lathe Chuck that was .0001 accurate.
Is there any functional reason not to set the angle using something like a sine bar and adjustable parallel off a test bar or similar - then cut till you get a clean surface, find/part back to the correct minor diameter and then find the major and relieve behind it?
I'm currently debating how to cut a 33 to a Jacobs E which I've drawn out in sketch up and the E taper can be cut inside of a 33's meat so I've purchased an arbor with the 33 taper - I'm now debating how to cut the angle considering its hardened and I don't own a heavy lathe - so I'm debating chucking the taper in my Deckel SO grinder - truing the face of a new grinding wheel setting the angle using a small sine bar across the face of the wheel - grind it to the taper then it will be overly long/sharp so I figured I could make a minor diameter ring gauge and cut the puppy down.
Hi Philip,
Setups with sine bars in the lathe are pretty sketchy,. The main point here is you have to be able to check your part. Its not just setting the angle. You have to measure what you make so you know you got it correct. There is an initial setting and then bump and check until you have the desired accuracy. Sine bar does not assure a correct part. Hope that makes sense. Thanks for the comment.
Cheers,
Tom
I wonder if Jacobs reply anything like mercedes do, by just saying 'always use genuine mercedes parts' when asking any question about specs
Hi Justin,
Best I can find out is they are AT4 tolerance. The guy at Jacobs and I have been playing phone tag for a few days.
Cheers,
Tom
oxtoolco
at4 isnt a hard target to reach, im not sure if he was just saying that to give you an answer, as at3 is usually the minimum spec for tapers, and those short steep tapers dont hold that well anyway. . thanks for the good videos Tom, always an interesting journey
I watched all 4 parts of this series and have to be honest.. I could use a little more depth on the math sections. For example the sine (sign?) portion etc... Need some more info on the math formulas being used. ALSO could you go into the long tapers and morse tapers too?
+Rj Lewis Hi RJ,
This was roughly a Morse taper. Math is the same for any taper you need. Math videos are not super popular. Lots of online resources for triangle solutions. Thanks for the comment.
Cheers,
Tom
Awesome video as always. After watching this I feel like I need to take some math classes. I was curious about that calculator you have and I checked it out..........holy shit over $400 bucks for a new one on Amazon. Whiskey tango foxtrot!
Most computers have a built in calculator program that has a scientific version. You can use that to do all the trig functions involved here as well.
HP12C shouldn't cost more than $100...
I use HP 35S calculators these days - ~$41 - $45 online
My HP 32SIIs have mostly died of old age - at least the one in my shop apron still works!
I cannot believe the price on Amazon for an HP 33S - they were el cheapo replacements for the 32S, and are only OK at best...
Why so many calculators?
One on my desk at work, one on my desk at home, a couple in briefcases, a couple in toolboxes near machine tools, and one in the pocket of my shop apron...
I don't like to have to hunt to find a 'cruncher when I'm working...
Good idea having calc's everywhere, its like pens and sharpies! I still have and use my TI35 I have had since engineering school that i normally use for everything.
Hey Kyle,
I've had my 41CV, 11C and 15C for something like 30 years now. The used ones go for nutty prices on ebay. The 12C is a sissy financial model for bean counters.
Cheers,
Tom
oxtoolco
Hey Tom -- I still have a printer and magnetic card reader for the HP41C. I'd run engineering calculations (bode plots) overnight... hence the printer would spit the results out while I slept (& annoy the heck out of my roommate, half the fun!). Pre-PC days! These days I just use "Droid48" on my Phone.
A fitting T-shirt for this week. RIP Karl Harris.... and indeed, godspeed to Cameron. Oh, I finally got tired of watching and not doing. Pround new owner of an Atlas 12". Thanks to Adam, Chuck and Tubalcain as well. Up next, knee mill......
Hope you don't need a tapered shaft for that........
Cheers,
Tom
oxtoolco Me too. But there's this guy in the bay area with an extensive hammer collection..............
Tell me one thing, just a hypothetical question, why use tapers, why not just keep it straight. What is the reason why machinist did start cutting and using tapers...
Guds777 a tool less/fastnerless way to hold items together.
Tapered objects are also self-centering, or in other words they always center the same way. And in some cases also provide holding, like when the taper angle is below say 1.5 degrees and that's called a selflocking taper.
One fellow mentioned his brain hurt, mine exploded! LOL