Cold Climate Heat Pumps - Warm homes on the coldest days
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 ธ.ค. 2022
- High efficiency heat pumps - often called Cold Climate heat pumps are a key technology in helping individuals and communities move towards rapid electrification and decarbonization no matter where they are located. Because they are designed to maximize heating efficiency, they are able to keep houses warm in cold climates where temperatures fall well below zero.
Our panelists from two of the leading heat pump suppliers, Mitsubishi/Trane and Daikin, will share the latest research and updates on cold climate heat pumps. We will also hear from Efficiency Maine who has been installing heat pumps in one of the coldest states in the US for years. - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
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If you think that the information can be consumed by topic, consider adding a time stamp guide to the different presentations. There is a lot of good content here that more TH-cam viewers will find more accessible in 10-15 minute segments rather than the smaller audience who will listen to the whole wonderful project. Great stuff!
I've been posting links with markers on the reddit heat pump site.
Really informative - especially Laura’s presentation - great job! Busted a lot of myths for me.
Thank you!
Should push for walkable your city. Even greater rewards then electrifying your ides.
Great discussion and information from presenters. Thank you and God bless you.
As a preference, I prefer cold weather interior heating from circulating hot or warm water, rather than blowing hot or warm air. IMO, It is a more comfortable form of cold weather interior warmth, and is usually more conducive to better interior air quality. That said, I am in my 80s, which may color my opinions on interior Winter comfort!
Air source heat pumps, whether they heat interior air or water, and utilize a buffer tank, must be properly installed, and careful installation can be a significant problem. In addition, they must be well-maintained, and home owners or property managers can often ignore or forget their maintenance responsibilities.
These presentations are more than somewhat theoretical. User experience is more critical IMO than “expert” opinions. If an air source heat pump is your only heating option, you have no secondary or backup heating option, and outside temperatures are sustained at well below zero, you had better have a competent installation, a good maintenance agreement and have done your maintenance due diligence, or a living space will rapidly loose heat!
More important than emphases on the heat pump is air sealing, insulating and moisture/vapor controlling your structure! Any heating source has less work to do if your structure has a continuous blanket against the cold! In addition, refrigerant types vary considerably in their adverse GHG impacts. Be certain what refrigerant your manufacturer uses. GHG impacts are not simply about CO2 and methane, and equipment/maintenance quality truly matters.
South Carolina
Thank you for this.
Your example of setting back the temperature at night does not address huge differences in thermostat recovery logic.
Your example appears to use electric strip heating to recover to return to high daytime temperatures.
A combination of adaptive recovery timing, stage lockouts and aux heat lockouts would change the values dramatically. Honeywell incorporates these features in some of their higher end products.
"Your example appears to use electric strip heating to recover to return to high daytime temperatures."
No, the home has mini splits, which do not use heating strips.
@@tomgilfoyle6849 I went back and looked at the original report. It sounds like a damper was closed to the second floor. Note the dramatic change in second floor loading. More is happening here than just a change in setback logic.
Most homeowners in the study kept the temperature setpoint between 65 and 70. They were not run at constant temperature.
Many hours in the report are zero draw. However, this is a function of the instrumentation resolution: the power meters are set to10 Wh/pulse, which means that low-draw periods will be counted as zeroes. This error would artificially lower the power consumption for units that were consuming below the minimum wattage measuring limit.
Baseboard electric heat was available in many homes, but not measured. It is unclear in the report if or how often this was used. Devens Lot 7 electric use did not correlate with outdoor temperature in the winter, but it did in the summer. This is a strong indication baseboard heating was used. Unfortunately, only MSHP electric usage was monitored in the study.
The report is unclear if the Mitsubishi 12NA is used in the home with claimed dramatic setback issues, but it sounds like it is. COP tests for that product indicate this should not be the case (www.nrel.gov/docs/fy11osti/52175.pdf, page 14). The efficiency difference at various fan speeds is not enough to account for the observed difference in power consumption. Efficiency can also improve with higher fan speeds at very cold temperatures. My own HP has that same behavior below 30 F.
It would be interesting if they compared MSHP performance after 5 or more years of use to ducted. MSHP are very difficult to clean and may suffer greater performance loss over time.
I'd sure like to see the air to coolant versions since many of us have hydronic heating.
check out these resources for hydronic heating with heat pumps:
www.arcticheatpumps.com/radiant-floor-heating-with-heat-pump.html
www.stiebel-eltron-usa.com/products/wpl-a2w-premium-climate-heat-pumps
Keep in mind these systems don't heat water anywhere near 180F. So you may need to replace baseboard runs with other styles of "heat exchangers" that can handle water temps of 120 F and cooler.
Has anyone found a better explanation for the best way to use them?
Is there a place to generate the cumulative hours chart at 43:43 for Boston?
We just discovered another reason to switch from oil- replacing a leaking tank can cost about three grand, and they only last safely about fifteen years. If they fail, you can be looking at twenty grand.
Great presentation, thank you. I installed a 3 head "cold climate" heat pump 2 years ago that in reality follows the blue line on your comparison graph. Major stretched manufacturers information! Now I'm getting ready to invest in a real CC HP but have concerns regarding the efficiencies (COP) at the low temp operations. Submittal info from these units show huge power consumption at these temperatures further confusing my understanding of the units overall efficiency. Can you point me to solid information regarding this? AHRI is helpful but incomplete when trying to get to the bottom line. Thank you!
The general definition of a cold climate heat pump is that it will deliver 100% of its rated heat output capacity at 5 degrees F and many will provide 90% at temps as low as -13 F. The COP at those temps will vary by model and if you get a bid from a contractor you could ask for that model specific data. The Energy Star benchmark for cold climate heat pumps is a COP of 1.7 at 5F but there are models that surpass that level of efficiency and can be as high as COP 3 at that temperature. It is true that the colder the temperature the more energy will be required, but that is true of any fuel you choose to use. Here is a good article to look at. zeroenergyproject.com/2020/01/22/achieve-comfort-and-reliable-performance-with-cold-climate-heat-pumps/
@@ElectrifyNowUSA Thank you for your detailed reply and article reference. An additional graph charting a units COP at the same capacity delivery temperature benchmarks would hit the spot. I would think AHRI, or other entity, would see the value in this.
I am happy I came across this presentation. I live in Richmond, VA, and I am in the market for purchasing a new Heat Pump/Air Handler. The Heat Pump hasn't worked since April this year. 😥😥However, the slide, "Where are Cold Climate Heat Pumps Used?" indicates I live in a Heating Dominated Area (4). Please confirm I can use a Cold Climate Heat Pump in my area. What are the benefits? I want to be sure I understand this slide and presentation. I look forward to your reply. All the best.
@biomedlib - a cold climate heat pump would be appropriate for your area and would provide the most energy efficient heating and cooling. Depending on the specific weather in your area, you may not need such an efficient unit - climate zone 4 is still quite mild in general so a good variable speed heat pump could work without going all the way to a cold climate model. This is something to discuss with your contractor - ask them what the benefit would be and the cost. For example - if you have very few days below freezing in your area, it might make sense to use back up electric heat strips in the air handler for those few days. A cold climate heat pump would not need that back up heat option. A new heat pump will most certainly be more efficient than the model you have now since the technology has improved every year. I hope that helps.
@@ElectrifyNowUSA Thank you for your detailed explanation. 😊😊My current HP is over 12 years old. As you stated, "Technology has improved every year", I'll speak to my contractor about the backup electric heat strips in the AH and a good variable speed heat pump. 😊😊 One last question, what do you know about the Aim Act? - 410a GONE By 40 Percent? Shall I wait until the rollout of HPs that no longer use 410a refrigerant before I purchase another unit? See the link. th-cam.com/video/qrLiLRzy0mI/w-d-xo.html Thank you and God Bless.
@@biomedlib The short answer is don't wait - but if you want to learn more before you decide, we are doing a webinar on this on October 9th. Here is a link. www.eventbrite.com/o/electrify-now-30608544418
Very nice presentation, thank you. I am curious to know what the switch over temp should be to my second fuel source (gas). I am in the Mid South with solar on my home, and want to maximize the carbon reduction. It is not a cold weather heat pump.
@joeozzie1 - that is a good question to ask your HVAC contractor. It is most likely somewhere in the 30-40 degree range but will depend on your heat pump capacity and your home heating load. Many installers are conservative and will set the crossover temp higher than needed to make sure you don't experience any discomfort, but if you tell them what you are wanting to do and willing to experiment, you can push that crossover temp lower and learn through experience if your heat pump is keeping up with your heating load at lower temps. If you do choose to do that, it is important to set a constant temperature - don';t turn the thermostat down at night like you do with a gas furnace - heat pumps work better and use less energy if you keep the room temp constant all day long.
Thank you for that answer. The default from Amana is 40 degrees, I asked it to be reduced to 35 degrees. @@ElectrifyNowUSA
Just installed a heat pump in Canada the cold climate , what is anoying is advertising pumps to heat to -30 celcius with no problem , but forget to mention the 10k electric elements that automatically kick in . Why annoying is come clean and tell us the real story , I have backup gas furnace that will take over when the unit runs for hours and hours to try to heat .
Does it help to protect the compressor unit from snowfall?
yes - it is important to avoid the external unit being covered in snow. Often they are elevated slightly and placed under an overhang.
Will this heat pump work in NEK area of up state Vermont when the temperature will drop-25 degrees F below zero
I believe they speak to this ... the way mine works is there are (normal) electrical heating elements in the plenum that come on when required.
What is "this" heat pump? Did you listen to the presentation?
I live in Maine and I believe they are talking about heat pumps designed for low temp heating like hyper heat or XLTH ones. Currently they are pushing the single zone versions of those because they have the best efficiency ratings. @@chrisE815
The lack of detailed information for COP vs temperature from manufacturers makes it difficult to make an informative decision regarding heat pump technology. Cold climate heat pumps seem to have poor COP vs temperature, so why is that?
One of the slides in this presentation (and the voice under that accompanied it) said that a cold temperature heat pump is more than just an inverter-driven compressor. But the video in general didn't say what else is involved in making a cold temp heat pump. I saw no evidence of a new refrigerant, clever new heat exchanger design, etc.
So what distinguishes a cold temp heat pump from a normal heat pump?
There was mention that many Asian-built heat pumps have side air discharge for the outdoor heat exchanger but I think this is simply a mechanical choice to make it possible to mount the outdoor portion on walls of Asian dwellings. It's unlikely that 4-sided/top discharge US heat exchangers are thermally any less efficient than side discharge.
And what about the overall reliability of high-powered electronic inverters that live their (likely very short) lives outdoors? I spent part of my career designing electronic lighting ballasts. It took a decade for that industry to get their devices to last longer than the lamps they drove. I remember watching dump trucks full of dead T-8 ballasts headed to landfills. The learning process put a lot of well-known ballast manufacturers out of business.
How does an HVAC manufacturer make reliable compressor inverters with 100x the power output of a lighting ballast and temperature extremes even greater than those we encountered? In particular, where do HVAC guys source electrolytic capacitors whose lifetime matches the expected life of HVAC gear?
Yes, it's true that companies like Tesla, Ford and General Motors can make/source high wattage inverters but they bring more resources to bear on the task than an HVAC maker. And you can tow a car to a repair shop. You can't take an outdoor HVAC unit back to Houston, TX or Asia for an inverter retrofit.
Jim - the main thing that distinguishes cold climate heat pumps from other heat pumps is their capacity to deliver heat at low temperatures. 100% of rated capacity at 5F and operation to -13F for example. The presenters also talked about defrost cycles and drain pan de-icing which is important to operate in cold climates and unnecessary otherwise. But the bottom line is that these units are just so efficient that they can deliver heat at lower temperatures than most heat pumps and that level of efficiency is not required for units operating in milder climates. It is similar to a gas engine that gets high MPG versus one that does not - same basic technology but little changes to make one more efficient. Regarding the reliabiity of inverter driven heat pumps - this technology has been available for decades and there is no issue that I have ever heard of with failures or short operating lives. Warranties for heat pumps are basically the same as for gas furnaces - 5-7 years. If you need maintenance on a heat pump - the installers can do that at your home.
Hi all! Happy Holidays! We built a new home in New York last year and have 2 Misti Heat pump hyper heat system. (PUZA42NHA7 PVAA42AA7 BASEMENT) (PUZ36NHA7, thermostat
This video frankly screams industry sponsored content.
I basically stopped watching after 5 minutes in because I know an industry pitch when I see one. That’s not what I hoped to find on this topic.
Sorry that turned you off, but this is not "industry sponsored". You are just getting the information from the manufacturers about what their products can do. This video also includes testing from the State of Maine that shows how effective these products are in very cold conditions.
@@ElectrifyNowUSA
I play poker pretty seriously as a hobby in casinos. One of the skills one cultivates over time is a structured way to approach making decisions with incomplete information. You rely on observed patterns and probability. The better you get at reading opponents , the more succesful you will be across time.
The thought process is that one's opponent is telling a story, and you zero in on elements that don't make sense in the story.
When you identify something that doesn't make sense, you know that the odds your opponent is bluffing you is greater than normal.
I wouldnt call you a liar, but if this was a poker game , I would pay to see your cards.
If I was looking to pay someone to promote my industry, and wanted to hire people on line to do so - which industry certainly does - how much different would that look than what I see in your content ? It's all praise and promotion as far as I can tell.
That's the crux of my scepticism. I could be wrong but I still go with my read until new information is acquired. Want to change scepticism?
What I would do is give space to the strongest critiques against these products and discuss their strengths and weaknesses on your channel. That would make me re-appraise my initial position.
Just a thought.
Your pricing structure has no correlation to costs in the Midwest. Our Natural gas prices have been less than half of your estimates. We typically run 50 cents to 75 cents per therm and maybe $1 or so, all in, including delivery. Nothing approaching YOUR gas cost estimates.
It is true that natural gas prices are relatively low in the midwest compared to the east coast or west coast. Your electricity prices are also fairly low compared to other areas, so switching to heat pumps in the midwest can still save money on operating costs. RMI studied the costs in Columbus and Minneapolis and found operating costs to be lower for a heat pump compared to gas furnace with AC. Here is a link if you are interested to read about their study. rmi.org/insight/the-new-economics-of-electrifying-buildings?submitted=1983dhtw8
I think of three ways to save with heat pumps:
1. Money savings- depends on the fluctuating prices of the energy options- natural gas, oil, electricity..... this can shift quickly as in Maine when power prices doubled in 2022 and dropped again in 2023. Basing your decision on prices now may leave you with the wrong choice for a long time.
2. Carbon savings- the carbon saved by not burning fuels in your home compared with the carbon produced by your utility in making your power. A coal state's #s will be worse than a hydro or nuclear based utility
3. Energy savings- apply the COP to your energy use. This is absolute and reflects your total savings of fossil fuels and electricity. Mine dropped more than the COP predicted, because baseboard heat is profligate, heating the coldest part of your home until you are comfortable.
Everything is cheap in the midwest; women, houses, gas, paychecks, etc...
Then do the calculations using your prices. No one should expect energy prices to be so consistent that the chart would remain valid. But the principles do. Do you know what prices will be in five years? Will the methanols gas grid still be stable in ten years? Will hookup fees increase as the customer base is whittled away?