An In-Depth Critique of Horizon Forbidden West
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
- In this video I discuss (almost) all my thoughts about Horizon Forbidden West
Patreon: / adamsrayi
Music Used:
Promise of the West - Horizon Forbidden West ost
Alone Before the World - Horizon Forbidden West ost
Edge of the Sundom - Horizon Forbidden West ost
Echo of You - Horizon Forbidden West ost
The Chorus - Horizon Forbidden West ost
Footage Credit:
• Horizon Forbidden West...
• Horizon Forbidden West...
• Horizon Forbidden West...
#horizonforbiddenwest #ps5
If you want EVEN MORE of my thoughts you can find them on patreon where any tier unlocks a written post mortem a few days after a video upload. www.patreon.com/AdamSrayi
AAA gaming is hard, the more realistic the environments get the more believable the player expects the game to be, so we are looking at the cubed law rule to make these games, you'd need massive staff to deliver within a reasonable time frame. And that would be ok but are you willing to spend $1000 on one game? Games are creative artforms that a cubed law would proportionally take away from. The AAA critique is what is killing it. AAA needs to be simplified to be better, it may have to go more indie in style.
I pretty much agree with you on everything except the combat!
You are not supposed to play aggressively! You are supposed to play tactically, systematically disabling enemies!
Also, apparently, the devs originally intended for you to have a shield but removed it since it would "overcomplicate controls".
That isn't what the cube law is related to...
I was so exited when Aloy got a shield, only to realise it later you can't use it as a shield
what do you need a shield for in this game? that would ruin the gameplay. She rolls. and quite effectively. her "shield" is the environment.
@@mickael486 it would mainly be for fighting other humans. Rolling around is very awkward and a shield would be much more fun and effective to fight them.
But yes, against the machines the shield wouldn't make sense. And the combat against machines is great as it is
@@allandm so the shield would basically only work for arrows... that's fair. but definitely not a deal breaker if there isn't one. Fighting humans (in camps) is still pretty great and requires some smart stealth mechanics that I'd be afraid would not be necessary if the game had a shield.
@@mickael486 fair enough, it comes down to preference at the end of the day. I don't really enjoy human fights in horizon, and if they gave her a parry/ a lock on and block it would feel better to me personally. Something like Kena bridge of spirits (the buttons are surprisingly similar to horizon)
@@allandm try stealth more. experiment with weaves on the right gear and you're almost invisible.
Something I wished you talked about during the combat section was the arena challenges. As it is right now, the arena is fine, but the knocked down mechanic is really apparent here. Aloy takes so long to get back up after falling down, and the amount of machines in the arena means there will almost always be one to knock you down straight after. This is all made worse by the fact that, in order to get the top reward, you need to beat them within a certain timeframe, and when half of that time is spent recovering from falls you (most likely) dodged, it feels a little unfair.
The arena also highlights just how much could have been done with the combat, in terms of contextual attacks. The time you spend getting to higher ground could be worth it if you could jump off walls onto enemies or use the glider more reliably.
It’s a really cool concept that - once I’d heard about it - devoted time figuring out how to unlock, but once I did the first challenge and realised exactly how unpolished the combat was in this setting, I never came back to.
This is sad because, just like you, I really enjoyed the game. What you said about how we should criticise the things we enjoy just as much as the things we like is so well put. Your video highlights issues you have in a clear and concise way without entirely shitting on a game that (in my opinion) was totally worth my time. Thanks for making it, you’ve got some real talent!
The arena was definitely another pain point, and could have been so fun
I, for one, don't do the arena fights. Nor the hunting grounds, for that matter.
However, I do agree with Aloy getting knocked down.
It takes a little too much time for her to get back up, and in that time, especially if you're low on health, the next attack could easily kill you.
I mean, I get that she's older, but not That much older.
Though with the way her character design is in this one, she looks significantly older than 6 months later.
In my opinion, anyway.
The first take about visuals is so based! As a professional 3D artist I couldn't agree more, HFW suffers from the same problems the Transformers series does. Visual fidelity is so high human eye cannot possibly take anything valuable from it, and it gets worse because of the lightning.
I do believe lighting plays a huge role here. Yes, it features better GI, but lacks contrast and darkening in cavities, so it makes overdetailed image even worse - by making all parts of the object evenly lit without telling more about its shape. So, in the end, I prefer HZD image more since it actually features better contrast and makes the image more readable by simply having fewer details - thus more interesting to look at.
Why cannot artists take a step back with the visuals and stop making the same mistakes transformers did?
I started HFW last weekend and it doesn't reach the same level of playability as HZD. My biggest gripe is the new controls - i hate key-combos for attacks. Plus, I often accidentally trigger the dodge mechanic when trying to manouvre around an obstruction, causing me to roll off a cliff or into a mob. I much prefer fewer skills and more reliable controls.
The 4-5 part puzzles in the game, also mentioned in this video, are a chore instead of a rewarding experience. The reward is often in a place I feel you should be able to get to without going through all the steps. Rewards are often visible though holes in the wall, but you cannot crawl through the hole. Even though size indicates it should be easily possible. This make the puzzle feel something that's completely unnecesary but you're forced to work through.
I had hoped they improved on the climbing mechanic for this sequel, allowing the freedom to climb everything anywhere. Unfortunately, it's still a case of hopping from one predetermined spot to another. For me, this is the most immersion breaking part of the game.
Same bro same
For me, the biggest frustration with the combat by far is the fact all the machines, from the burrower to the tide ripper, are equally nimble. They all move on a dime, it's nearly impossible to circle around the bigger machines, they just sorta slide around in place to prevent you from being able to get behind them to hit weak points. You effectively have to use the same strategy on every machine in order to defeat them. The first game had the same problem, but it's exacerbated in this one. It's pretty ridiculous that a large, limbering, aquatic machine can be so nimble on land in only that specific respect.
That's a great point
I agree with this. I range snipe everything…. when this goes wrong all hell breaks loose and I have a mini nightmare on my hands 😅
Agreed plus alloy takes so much time to get up. Yet a 60 ft machine is like a ballet dancer. The way they target u is like dark souls you dodge and the projectiles will float and target u behind rocks, hit u through walls and then move so fast u cant counter a dodged attack that you should be able to hit.
Its horrible tbh one big part of the game i hate. Ima melee fighter first thats how i play most games unless they offer good magic like a dragons aga game.
I barley use magic in souls because it sucks and isnt fun.
Just wish the machines didnt spend target 360 degress with an attack in order to hit u. So unrealistic.
If you want to hold a machine in place, you can use the adhesive arrows or bombs to gum them up, ropecaster to tie them down, or a smoke bomb to disorientate them. Wholly agree it is pretty tricky to circle strafe, though there are tools to make things easier.
I tested this on every machine. I moved my left analog stick back and forth vigorously and they robots did the same. It’s horrible. Even in concentration mode they live incredibly fast. Or move as you release. Which I tested that to. So I had to trick the AI and aim at a different point that I didn’t want to shoot and then quickly shoot what I really wanted.
Horrid
the reason why Zero Dawn had a big city (Meridian) while the Forbidden West had small cities, is that the carja are more advanced and civilised than the tenakth whom are more like tribal and almost nomadic, and were always at war with each other until recently when Hekarro united them.
oh man your videos are so great . give this man more subscribers and views. one of my fav channels
My absolute biggest annoyance is the second you attack one of the machines, the rest of them almost always gang up on you even if you've separated them a good distance apart. Not to mention their barrage of AOE attacks that keep coming at you from a mile away leads to some veeeery annoying battles. This literally happens 99% of the time. Of course I am playing on hardest difficulty so usually just 2 hits and I'm bye bye. Not fun.
Getting ganged up on is fine, the barrage of ranged attacks gets iffy. What really makes it annoying is the tracking on these attacks. A Shockwave should not curve to hit you. I often get killed because something curved to hit me or clipped through geometry.
Incredible work brother, get ready for an uptick in your watchtime coz I'm about to go through a bunch of your videos. Keep it up!
This video was hard to watch for someone who really does appreciate and love this game. However you do make some great points and I hope the developers take notes so they can make a masterful third installment of the Horizon franchise
Anthropology! I wish they really made the different tribes look a certain way, i mean if you live for hundreds of years with a group of people, then wouldnt the different races of people be a mix ?! That would have been much more interesting than this mirroring of our world.
Imagine developing this, spending weeks of your life, and some guy spends 30 minutes of a review talking about how terrible it is that there’s so much awesome detail
By that logic none should be able to critic anything at all.
"Imagine spending hours to prepare a dish, and then someone takes a bite for a minute and tells you it doesn't taste great"
I started playing this right after playing Tears of the Kingdom, so the climbing mechanic in this game became something absolutely annoying, stupid and ultimately irritating to me. The whole traversal feel so clunky it's so unenjoyable to travel the map.
31:35 you can dodge it, to I would say the shockwave isn’t distinct enough to know when to do it
The first game was fun, I really like it.
I want to try Forbidden West on PC, now I might wait for sale.
Nice Vid.
I don't play video games, but this looks nice.
If you ever wanted to give them a try, the Horizon series would be a beautiful place to start!
Very interesting critique. Some valid points, some less so!
Killing off Sona's only two children over the two games seemed unnecessarily cruel and really mean spirited.
I had to reload a save, losing hours of gameplay, once I realised being nice had denied me one of the best weapons in the game, Regalla's Wrath!
My biggest gripe with the game though, was the relentless grind required to upgrade weapons and outfits. The number of Dreadwings and Frostclaws I had to kill to fully upgrade my weapons was frustrating to say the least. Furthermore, I probably had to kill about 200 Tremortusks just to get the ten impact coils I needed to upgrade my preferred weapons!
But worst of all, was losing my shield weaver armour from the first game. All they had to do was require us to recharge the batteries over a few early quests. Acquiring it in the first game was a highlight, only to then realise there was no game left to enjoy it was a huge disappointment.
Otherwise, I've really enjoyed the series, but have little interest in getting a PS5 just to play the Burning Shores DLC. What were they thinking...!!!
Pretty much agree on nearly all points. The stamina-check "stumble" on the third dodge, ridiculous enemy tracking and 'sliding', inconsistent hitboxes + delayed knockdown animation, and the nerfing of the stuff that made HZD combat fun (tripcaster, tear)... all made this game substantially inferior to the first. The first game felt like a fluid dance with the long-dodge and i-frames; HFW seems to prioritize long range combat, elemental rock-paper-scissors, and DPS equipment grinding above all else. 31:32 shows how BS the combat sometimes feels.
THE GAME PLAY MECHANICS WERE VERY POOR.
the point of the vertical grapple points is to glide after you shoot yourself into the air
And I love both think they’re equally awesome and appreciate it for what it is because it took many hours to do
Nice critique!
I think the game was too ambitious... I still played it but I felt overwhelmed with the whole new mechanic stuff and the things you must remember so as to play the way they want you to play
oh man, I'm sorry those waves look terrible. The wave and crest object look entirely divorced from each other, you can see the sharp edge of the wave through the surf. It also just kind of vanishes abruptly. I'm genuinely confused, the water I saw in the marketing and trailers looked great, as do those in the rivers, lakes and pools shown. Were the shoreline waves made by a different team or something? Perhaps one in a landlocked region?
35:47 "Why can't I use mine as a shield?"
They literally say, and show, why you can't when Aloy takes it from the deceased Grutta.
"Probably can't take a hit, but I should be able to use it to glide."
I do understand where you're coming from though.
Sometimes I also wish the shield part of the shieldwing could actually be used.
Typical AAA game. Looks awesome from the outside but when you get down to the nitty-gritty parts, its disappointing.
Excellently put
Horizon Forbidden West is lacking, and we have to fix it before the next game, as a community 🏹
its like if Totk had better graphics and franerate but with no soul and forced in politics 😮
a lot of valid points - but the "she cant break this door?" argument is unnecessary and drags out for too long .. thats just how games work if you dont want to lock down every surface with steel plates.
Honestly I find all these visual critiques so nitpicky. Aside from the aggresive time of day changes and lighting inconsistencies, I hardly noticed these. I think you could go through any photorealistic game and find a bunch of far more egregious errors. This is easily the best looking game I've ever played. No, the graphics aren't perfect, but it's hardly "two steps back".
lol that was funny
Bad thing
bad thing
bad thing
bad thing
Sand looks nice tho
bad thing
bad thing
that pretty much sums up the game
😂😂😂😂😂
10:36 feels a bit too nitpicky, they probably made it more silent so that it doesn’t blast your eardrums in contrast to other stuff.
But I do wish that the water ripples, sand/snow deformation was made by machines, just look at the slitherfang, it leaves no traces in the sand
Very good Analyse. The games development surely had a bigger, higher, faster approach and while it had a view highlights like vegas i was ultimately dissappointed. Especially regarding the story which was just aweful and lazy written.
I have soooo much beef with the story, character writing, character development and even dialogue I could cry. Especially given how well the first game was written and how much potential many of the ideas had. I really don't understand what happened with the writing team.
@@Taya27 Indeed. HZD's story was original, intriguing, exciting. HFW's story is schematic, the hyper-super-intelligent swirling blob of red that destroys everything is just uncreative and unbelievable. I wish the story would be more inspired since this franchise is so groundbreaking and awesome.
This is the best review I've found on this game. Even if it's late to publish the video, because every aspect you mentioned is correct.
you make several great points and i hope GG takes notes for the next installment.
just a tiny nitpick, 25:00 the game drags you down there specifically to prevent you from entering a story location. i haven't personally experienced that drastic of a drag-down while gliding anywhere else in the game
Gameplay is really boring now, especially the looting and upgrading, and as mentioned in the video many other things puts me off. I especially agree with using maybe explosive arrows to blow up crumbled walls to get where you need to. The mechanic where you need a spear to activate some crystals to blow the wall or you need a hook to get to that location, or you need a rebreather to reach another location, it just takes me out of the game. It feels like i need a red, yellow and blue key cards and i am just opening locked doors. No creativity at all.
The story feels like playing sims 3, i skip everything now, i am 0% interested. In Witcher 3, the side characters often take a role in the main quest. Like Yennefer using black magic to revive someone and find more info. It actually feels sometimes that you are the side character in Witcher 3. There doesn't seem to be anything interesting like that in Forbidden West, except for the only 1 time at the beginning with Hades. Instead of using Hades in interesting ways we just got rid of him. In Elden Ring the story is heavily affecting the ending, and the game is trying to influence you to make some interesting decisions. Like the Manor, hunt your fellow tarnished to get to Rykard. or choose the 3 fingers. In Forbidden West, why not use the Zenith for example, like we have Gaia and they want Gaia, give them a copy of Gaia, they leave the planet and maybe they give us something in return. or fight them and take their tech yourself.
This game is really bad for me, it's like a 6/10.
Your comments on the ruins is 100%. I stopped doing them cause i didnt give a fuck about spending 10 mins for a puzzle just to find a fucking ornament that changes vegas lights. Fuck that.
👶🏻👶🏻👶🏻
Bit late reaction from me but stumbled on the video and this comment but the ancestor return (rewarded from completing them all) is great and worth the hustle if u r just there for the story then dont bother with them
0:00 - Intro
1:32 - The Visuals
16:30 - The Gameplay
37:27 - The Story
It hurt that you talk bad things about this game. BUT! To be fair it is true and you make a really really good point. Something is missing in this game.
Thank you for the time stamps! They are perfectly placed
W man been looking for this
I would be so curious to see what would happen if a studio like this put this much time and resources into creating a shorter game set in a much, much smaller area that is full developed and polished. I think that could really be something special
Omg 100%, I'd rather have the game be smaller but better.
Great video. Especially the part about the visual clutter and "towns" being hard to navigate because of the lack of distinct things to focus on.
the knockdown animations are so frustrating in combat. They look good and more realistic but the pacing of combat suffers a lot. I find myself screaming at Aloy to get the F up already so i can get back control already and dodge an attack i see coming a mile away. I dont recall having this issue in zero dawn.
The spear combat is a complete miss imo. I dont find it any good fighting big machines, it makes me having to be so close to a machine and exposed to its attacks, when i can just take some distance instead and fire more powerful ranged attacks. Ultimately The added value of more spear combos doesnt make it less useless than HZD, compared to ranged attacks.
Also there are so many materials to collect i dont even bother to get familiar with them. In HZD yellow flowers were for fire damage potions, blue for freeze damage etc. Now i just list it as a job and go collect whatever the side list tells me like im in a fkin supermarket.
And last of all are the weapons. Why the hell do we need so many variations to the same weapon type? I get it that there are more elements like plasma and water etc, but why do i need to carry 2 to 4 bows in the weapons wheel (1 for fire and acid, 1 for freeze and water, 1 hunter, 1 sharpshot) just so i have enough elemental counter ready in combat. This just makes me keep changing almost my entire weapon wheel depending on the machine im about to fight. "I need this weapons for that part, this weapon for that part" Makes to preperation for a battle like studying for a test.
I hope the developers watch this.
@@nehemiahpouncey3607my guy...you are not very smart.
They have confirmed horizon 3. Not just that, but it's an incredibly small minority mad that she's gay. Why does it matter if she's gay, straight or bi? Lol she's a fictional character.
Y'all really get triggered so easily, it's sad
They don’t care they don’t work for us😢
They just take our money because we will buy it anyway even if it’s crap
@@PeachShortcake_ I am a gay woman and didn't even know Aloy would have feelings for a woman in the DLC. It is so rare to see this in games. I fully enjoyed it, and them going on a couple of quests together too. Magic.
@@SladeLit is not rarely it’s nearly in every game and every show these days. And forget if you have children how they see this. Forcing sexuality upon gamers instead of just letting it be a video game has become the norm. I play games to play games. Not to see a characters sexual preference.
@@MeggaMann_theBlueLion but when the characters are heterosexual, you don't say this. It shows your homophobia.
On the story: sci fi is interesting as a platform to introduce new ideas, new concepts, new technology with new applications and new implications. All this with the emphesis on NEW.
The first story did a great job and made the story interesting. The second story made it a back drop. The introduction of the zeniths could have been a great stage of colliding civilisations with the introduction of new technology infusing with the existing ones we already had.
It's hard to explore this world after the main mission. It's all in all pretty but shallow.
Exactly
Yea, horizon is a weird game for me, it seems like a game i should absolutely be in love with, but im just meh towards it.
Same, it has so much from the first game that i just love, but it wasnt untill i watched this video that i really could put into words way it never grabbed me like that first one did, to the point that i gust got bord and moved on before finishing it. honestly looking back i wish i could return it. its not as bad as many other AAA games can get, but these issues make me gust want to play a better game, like zelda.
I played and beat this game and couldn't help but feel like it was slightly disappointing the entire time but could never figure out why. You summed it up perfectly for me
This game oddly reminds me of Crysis. Especially Crysis 2.
Sure, Crysis 2 was pretty neat. But it's also dull. It almost feels like a fake game, a tech demo made into a full game.
Horizon has amazing graphics. But it feels like an overly long demo.
I am about 70 hrs into HFW on the PC. I do really like it but I totally agree with the "no fun here" signs you mention.
I loathe the melee combat. It is horrendous with all the knock downs/stun locks you get. Human combat is terrible so I'll never fo the fighting pit stuff.
Ditto for the arena as I enjoy the game so much more when being a proper long range high vantage point hunter and arenas are the opposite of that. Why the f*** woukd a dev lock the best sniper bows behind a crapot arena thing?
Then there is the "crafting". I thought I'd gotten away from such amazing quests as "get ten badger rectums" when I finally gave up on mmos but no! You want to get the best out of your purple gear then get ready to grind!
The puzzle ridden Ruins of HFW are superfluous and the only rewarding thing about them is weapon you get for completing all of them
You are saying the environment is a bit too detailed and so a bit too much. The game for me is overwhelming, also in the visual details. But also in the too many quests, way too many characters and in a lot more. These data points you find also are very dull. Their next game, though I admire them for making this game, should go back to HZD structure.
Sorry but I have to respectfully disagree with a number of your points...
Stealth for one - 'You don't have the ability to manipulate enemy patterns'.You have rocks to throw as distractions, a full invisibility skill to infiltrate undetected and disrupt, outfits and mods that are quieter than others for sneaking to draw attention without full detection, and even shooting arrows from a distance can draw attention. You can use your focus to highlight routine patterns to see where they've been broken.
Ability to set traps is limited - ultimately, yes of course it's not UNLIMITED, that would be ridiculous - but if your play style is stealth, there are upgrades, gear, outfits, skills and modifications specifically for trappers... Everything from multiple types of anti-air traps, explosives, different types of trip wires, stagger beams, canister harpoons and floating mines!
As for getting human enemies and machines to fight either other? You have the Beserk arrow type to confuse and enrage any enemy to attack those in the vicinity (including machines) AND the Targeting arrow type to even direct overidden machines (hacked to be on your side either aggressively or passively) toward any enemy you want... Aim it at a human, and you have both fighting each other.
While I agree on some aspects, there are many other oversights and I feel like there's not been enough time and creative experimentation with the systems to make some of these claims.
I wholeheartedly agree with you on visual clutter. Graphics, as pretty as they are, cannot convey the depth of bright colours from real life and brightness of the colours blind the viewer because of that. Same happens with digital art, where most bright colours "shine". It is part of the reason I heavily dislike fully digital "bright" shades in anime and why new Sailor Moon, for example, sometimes is too shiny and flat looking.
My personal problem with HFW is dialogue. Too much modern phrases that are specific to a certain region. Maybe it's not that noticeable for an US citizen, as it is an everyday thing, but for people from other regions HFW dialogue is too modern American English for its own good. They had 700 years, but they have no diversity in dialects and no new languages. Ambient chatter is severely lacking and sometimes the same voice line is used too many times in a short period of time.
In short, they need a much better writing team for dialogues and chatter. There is no internal consistencies in how people speak depending on the tribe, especially in ambient chatter.
The funny part is the dialogue is much better in at least 2 localizations that I've seen. Much less anachronistic words and phrases, much more consistency. I was actually surprised by the difference in quality. In most cases originals are better, but in this case I actually would recommend trying to play in the native language of the player.
It still won't fix the fact that people use the words "cauldron", "hologram", etc., when they shouldn't know them, but at least phrases will flow better.
In the first game I felt like an archaeologist, uncovering data from the old world, but in the second one I didn't have that feeling as much.
While I respect the effort put into the in-depth critique of Horizon Forbidden West, it feels more like nitpicking than a holistic assessment. If applied to 99% of the games, you might find similar issues. But, considering the game's cross-gen development, initial focus on PS4, and the challenges of the COVID-19 pandemic, it's reasonable to acknowledge that not every detail can be perfect. Games are complex projects, and they don't always strive for absolute realism. It might be beneficial to keep in mind the broader development context and the practical constraints faced by the team.
Opinions are complex, and they don't always strive for absolute internal consistency or positivity. It might be beneficial to keep in mind that other people can have multifaceted opinions, or even criticisms, about a work of fiction you enjoyed.
My problem with H:FW is that while the voice work that is by and large professional, and the facial mocap is best in the business - but none of it can elevate the (for the most part) bad writing. The dialogue is meandering, the side characters are one dimensional, and lack camaraderie with Aloy. Moroever the "emtionlal scenes" lack setup. For example thatscene after capturing Aether where the museum plays some random old world speech with the tribes watching as if I the player (and Aloy) was supposed to - but the writing never made me care about those characters nor did they develop any relationship/chemistry with Aloy. I literally felt nothing.
The developers were mad at Elden for it's UI/UX. I'm mad that you have all time best written video games in Witcher 3 and RDR2 just years before and they have learned nothing about how to craft a narrative and write characters to care for.
When the game first dropped, I absolutely despised it, and that’s coming from an extremely diehard zero dawn fan. It felt like none of my learned skills from the first game translated to this one at all, so much so I was struggling on my normal difficulty first play through after ultra harding zero dawn. I literally didn’t want to leave the settlements because I knew I’d get my ass kicked, I felt like I wasn’t taught how to use these new and modified mechanics and weapons and it took some serious learning time just to bare the combat. After some patches and updates it’s gotten better, and after many hours I’ve come to adore the combat and I’ve finally gotten through an ultra hard run. But I agree with nearly all your points, ESPECIALLY the “no fun allowed” sign lol. Even at higher skill levels stealth and traps seemed all but useless. Will always love the game, but it’s far from perfect
When I got the shield I was so happy, as I thought I could start playing as a sword and board playstyle from then on. After the realization that the shield is only a glider my heart sank, and the game only went downhill from there. It's a technically impressive game, with very good art and sound design...But the gameplay and the story are so...bland...I was disappointed after I finished it.
8:30 These inconsistencies in lighting are actually due to the fact they made a lot of artificial lights. I mean all characters and their faces have some weird backlight from nowhere. I can understand this for static images to make it more visually interesting. But in motion, it rather feels weird, ESPECIALLY outside of the cutscenes. I would rather like to have just the sun as a single light source in a scene. Especially considering their engine got better with GI (Or maybe it's not and this is the reason they just cranked up the ambient light?).
First game was better in almost every way. From graphics and physics to the story. I'm actually unable to finish FW. ZD I restarted as soon as I finished first playthrough.
Sure, different woke level in those 2 games does play a role but mainly it's unpolished feeling and weaker story.
in other words: buy on budget and ramp up your suspension of disbelief-meter
thx a lot for you detailed honesty
About 6 hours into the 1st game I started playing in 2017 and I play a bit every year. Thinking I might be wrong about the game but to this day 2024 I can’t get into it.
You and me both...
Everything else can be ignored......this games biggest flaw is the trash horrible story.
And just when you think the story is bad the dlc gets released with an even worse story.
Forbidden West did more harm than good for the horizon franchise.
I'm so glad you put into words some of my biggest gripes with the game. I feel like you, I like it, I had fun with it, but so many things frustrated me and didn't sit right. And often I couldn't really say why. I also thought all the details are stunning and impressive, but as a whole I didn't find it visually intriguing. And I also often can't play for more than an hour because all the visual noise is very exhausting for me to look at. So I completely agree with you here. The same goes for the design of the different settlements. Overall Plainsong is very cool to look at from a distance and a great idea, but when I'm in there orientation is hard and and don't know where to look first. I'm visually overwhelmed.
I also very much agree with you on Aloy's agility (or lack thereof). A friend of mine said the same a while back; combat feels more stunted, less fluid than in the fist game. It feels like they wanted to make it more realistic, maybe, but when you sacrifice speed in a game that's focused on action heavy, fast combat it's just frustrating. I'm replaying ZD atm and can't believe how much fun I'm having with the combat. Yeah, there are a few tools from FW that I'd like to have but overall the rhythm of the combat is just really good. Also visually ZD is still stunning but more limited than FW, less noise. It's easier for me to focus on the landscape and enjoy the environment.
I also had the feeling that all the ideas they tried to implement here don't really work together. I like the comparison to a theme park but wouldn't only keep it to the transition of the biomes (that doesn't bother me much) but also look at the different activities in this context. It really feels like there were different teams developing these different ideas pretty much in isolation and when sth was done it was just placed somewhere on the map. What I don't understand is why ZD doesn't feel like this at all to me though both games are very similar. All in all ZD feels much more polished to me and like everything was placed in the world with much more careful planning and intention. They were probably more limited in ZD when it comes to budget and resources thus they had to prioritize certain aspects over others and I think you can see this in certain areas (like human combat or the water etc), but that's absolutely fine bc, imo, they found the right priorities. You can not make everything great. Some things just have to be solid enough. It feels to me like in FW they made the same mistake that many sequels do, especially movie sequels, thinking "more is more". Instead of focusing on a few core ideas in areas of graphic design, gameplay and story they wanted to do all the things. But that makes it impossible to have an eye on everything, to make sure, everything connects well and have proper quality control. And I think it shows in almost every aspect.
Oh sorry, I thought I was done but then I remembered what you said by the end about how the story unfolded and I felt the same disappointment. When I think what they could've done gameplay-wise when it comes to the problems 'caused by the subfunctions. I thought these would impede your progress very strongly and that you had to battle with them in some way to maybe unlock new parts of the map or to get to specific important equipment. I thought solving some of the environmental problems could unlock more side quests. I thought you would have to talk to the subfunctions, maybe even make a deal with them or sth to get them to come with you. There were a million ways to use these ideas to make the story and gameplay and even development of the map super unique and interesting. And you even could've left out the Zenith part completely, save it for the last game. Then you would've also had more room for the business of the tribes of the West. Wow, I really have to stop myself here. Could go on and on but this is your show. You said you had some very subjective opinions on the story. I'd love to hear those. Maybe you'll make another video about that at some point? I would also just read a blog entry or your google docs XDDD
Thanks again for making this. It was a bit cathartic to me.
I'm glad you liked the video. You have some good ideas about what they could have done with the subfunctions. Could have been so much more interesting
You make dozens upon dozens of valid and eye opening criticisms, but the game still was just awesome af to play, no? The two biggest ones to harp on - aloy getting stunlocked and the combat vs humans. holy shit the fight vs the enduring is like the perfect culmination of all those frustrations. And then there is the arena challenges chasing the best time possible, oh my those were something. especially with the developer provided loadouts.
two more things I wish you mentioned were the game wants you to use all these different weapons and techniques vs machines and to hit specific parts but then it becomes extremely difficult to use said weapons and hit those parts in practice. Giant machines will have 15 spots to shoot and you have so many options but it's next to impossible to even see any of them or get a clear shot cus you have to get too close and risk getting stomped and stunlocked. so each of those fights in the end game turns into use level 3 power and spam your hardest hitting weapon killing all the variation.
the second thing is I remember the minigame races being absolute TORTURE. awful gameplay mechanics. really don't like when these games just shove in stuff from other games to give more things for the player to do. goes for the chess game as well.
but to bring some more positivity back, the end of the 3rd act and flying the machine in the story was instantly one of my favorite things I've ever done in a game. The franchise as a whole can introduce so many things to make it better, but damn I still give this game a 10/10. Really enjoyed my 95 hour 100% playthrough. The positives just heavily outweigh the negatives even though you really could nitpick the game to death.
The fact that they don't have a dude like you in a studio blows my mind.
great video, i felt a little stupid to "hate" so much about that game after loving zero dawn so much
36:27 you can throw rocks, launch bombs, environmental traps, smoke bombs and the berserk arrows
This is actually a really good critique of the game I'm really happy it's a actual critique and not like one of those other videos where all they do is complain
Its super picky of me, but Aloy accutaly says the shield is to damaged after the fight to be used effectivly as a shield when she takes it off the dead guy
Exactly, although you have to wonder how she never found an intact shield after fighting so many rebels through the course of the rest of the game.
This was a really interesting critique! Watched some other videos and no one else could really pinpoint why the creature designs felt off, but your point about the Tallnecks having a combination of machine elements and animal parts put the whole thing together in my head! Great video.
Thank you! Im glad I could put words to your feelings
I've been screaming about the damn shield since it released. Do what God of War did. The shield was one of my favorite things in that game. Even Spider-Man 2 has a parry now. It's baffling how they didn't implement it in Horizon.
This was an amazing analysis! Thanks for being brutally honest!😂 This helped me a lot on whether or not I get this game. Too bad more game developers don't do things like the developers of Mario Wonder did and have no actual 'due date' and to just have fun making it. Amazing work on this video!
Game development doesnt work like that im sorry
21:36 That's not true. You *can* climb that granite rock face (El Capitan). It's the first thing I did when I saw it. And iirc there's loot on top.
I'm playign through now, and I'm struggling to stay with it. The gameplay aspects are great, the combat, exploration, collecting, etc. But the story and characterizations are killign me. ALoy was such an adorable little girl, where did it all go wrong, lo. She's practically insufferable in this one. They ramped up the matriarchal power fantasy aspect to 11, ramped up the weird and unattrractive characters to 11. I just quickly read and jump through the dialog so i don't have to listen to them. CLimate propaganda all over the datapoints, grrr. And I know what happens in the DLC already, if I get there.
I too hate this tendency of meticulously curated experiences in big budget games
Great video, there are some fair and valid points.The visual aspect you mentioned is more noticeable when playing in performance mode with the checkerboarded dynamic res it's using so details can be lost, the quality mode is a lot cleaner in that regard. But even with all these nitpicking flaws the game might have it still doesn't really bother or hurt my overall experience I have with the game. They are fair and valid points for sure, but that can surely be improved with the third game. I still adore this game either way and have it as one of my favorite open world games ever.
A shield is something I do want to see in the third game though, a parry mechanic would be very useful.
Thank you! I have optimism for the third game. Especially since they won't be burdened by cross gen development. It could really be excellent
This series bums me out so much. Both from a technical and more importantly an art design perspective the world these games are set in is utterly gorgeous, no arguments there, but the gameplay is some of the most bland, cookie-cutter, pre-baked open world fluff that I've ever stumbled into. I've long despised the Ubisoft game, so to see that formula pop up in something with this much potential just... man, it bums me out.
Same for Ghost of Tsushima, really - even assuming that all of these games are some of the best iterations of the Ubisoft game there are, they still remain the Ubisoft game. At least the Horizon games don't use the Batman combat formula.
Good channel, a sweet little gem in a sea of shit
You go into more technical reasons for your argument than I. I'm more of a 'what you see is what you get' kind of guy. Shallow. Heart on sleeve, etc. I absolutely adored Zero Dawn, and still play it to this day. Sometimes as the makers intended you to play, and sometimes in an alternative order, but ALWAYS entertaining.
Sadly, I found this impossible with FW. I found the story boring. I found the side quests variations of a theme. Again, boring. The 'new, improved' graphics I found to be a non-event. The Ad's screamed of the beauty of the underwater scenes... but how often did that happen in relation to the story? 2%? 3%? The ' new, improved Aloy. Oh yeah? In real time there was supposed to be a 6 month span between games. In ZD we had a nineteen-ish year old girl. In FW we had someone looking in their late 20's/early 30's. Man, that must have been a rough 6 months. The one character who shone through was Varl, and what happened to him (no spoilers)?
Eventually I gave the game to my grandson as I was so bored with it. 3 months later, he passed it on to his cousin, who in turn, passed it on to a friend. Since then I've lost trace of it.
I'll never buy another one in the same series.
My score for Zero Dawn? 8.5 out of 10. My score for Forbidden West? At a stretch, maybe 6, but no more.
You said that you liked the game. I say "I WANTED to like it", but it disappointed on so many levels that I couldn't.
I will agree the controls are fighting us practically all the time Especially if Aloy get´s hit and fall to the ground GET UP ALOY GUT UP ALOY THEY ARE HITTING US ALOY GET UP GET UP and of course please Aloy shit up shit up SHIT UP she is talking all the time even underwater . As for the dlc just a crap i have write a message with all the wrong but the message have go for a walk . I will say i thing . They care more about making her G........... and not making a good dlc and instant of giving us something with Hephaestus or Cyan they gave us that .
Having spent 100’s of hours climbing pointless hills on BOTW and TOTK, I personally find defined climbing routes one of the best features about this game. I can’t get my head around the common opinion that this is in some way a bad thing.
Because there are no climbing routes. You have to rely on the scanner thing or try it out to see if you can climb something. This guessing game kills the flow and immersion. Then you have this ugly yellow markers until you're done.
Either everything is climbable, or nothing should be.
You can't have a rock surface you can climb and then the same rock surface somewhere else is not climbable, at that point put clear markers like in the first game (the white ones).
@@Bob69303 far less time is spent pushing a button than climbing a pointless mountain in hope of a korok seed only to find nothing. Perhaps you haven’t tried to max these out on TOTK? + I fail to see what’s ugly about the lines, but that’s just my opinion and I don’t understand yours.
@@79bull the problem with your argument is that climbing is a mean to an end. The fact that in Zelda you might find nothing on top of a mountain, has nothing to do with Horizon, and has nothing to do with the climbing system either.
In Zelda there are clear rules for climbing, in HFW there aren't.
What you're implying is "if there are no climbable surfaces it means there's nothing to find, I don't have to waste time", but this is false. The video itself shows why, but time and time again I found myself in an area during exploration, then wanted to reach another location, and had to take a detour, because the rock surface in front of me wasn't climbable, for arbitrary reasons.
Usually, when this happened I tried to jump my way through, like a mountain goat, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
Even then, in a pretty game like Horizon, why can't I just climb to enjoy the view?
The yellow markers are weird because they are in complete contrast with the realistic style of the world, especially considering that the predecessor solved this issue with yellow-ish metal objects and white rock edges.
They could make a neon pink robot, and maybe you'd like it, it doesn't mean it'd fit into the world.
@@Bob69303 I’m sorry, not interested in debate. Because the only ‘problem’ with my opinion is it doesn’t align with yours. I have my opinion and you have yours. This is where it ends.
On the topic of the Relic Ruins, totally agree with your comments about the puzzles and how forced they seem. But also like, what are the odds that the only 9 ruins worth exploring are the exact 9 places these guys hid these holograms 1000 years ago? Down the individual room in the individual building, it's like, the only door in the whole place with fully functioning power and locks, everything else is just rotting wood. Too gamified, totally breaks immersion. Could've kept the ruins exactly as they were, but made the 9 collectables unrelated to one another. A comic book, a Rubiks cube, a snowglobe, etc. Could've hidden the balls in more random spots to retain the whole Stemmur changing the sky thing.
You also missed my biggest gameplay complaint - Blocked Paths. I'm the kind of player who wants to explore every nook ans cranny. If the main mission is pointing me one way, I'll check everything else first before I go. You put a question mark on the map nearby, I'm definitely checking it out. I've always been that way, but damn, this game beat the curiosity out of me. The amount of times I'd work my way to a question mark in the first part of the game, sometimes arduously, only to find it's something I can't interact with yet. It happened so much in the early game, I genuinely just broke, and started blasting straight toward the main story map marker, full speed on a mount, ignoring everything else. And when I unlocked the igniter, and the vine cutter, and went back to check these "blocked paths", 9 times out of 10 it wasn't a path at all. Most often it'd be an extremely shallow, 1ft deep cave that inexplicably had a wooden crate sealed behind the rock wall I just blew up. So not worth the build up, effort or backtracking. Killed my enthusiasm for exploring, which is not good for an open world, then gave almost no incentive to go back afterwards because what was inside was probably useless. Like you said with the graphics - there was just so much meaningless clutter on the map, I actually would've preferred less stuff but more meaningful stuff.
I love both Horizon games but they could be more immersive.
- Stealth would be improved if Aloy could carry, throw or and hide bodies like in AC Odyssey or Red Dead 2.
- Swing her spear or at least do a poking thrusting motion underwater, like in AC Odyssey.
- Use her rope as a lasso like in Red Dead 2.
- Hassle villagers like in AC Odyssey or Red Dead 2, then get a bounty and maybe pay off the bounty later on.
- I wish the final battle with Tilda occurred in different set pieces, like how Kratos and Atreus battled Baldur, they were thrown in so many place. The Tilda fight was boring. It would have been better if her friends were there with her actually contributing to the fight.
- There should be an option to shut her up and not solve the puzzle as we are actively trying to solve the puzzle.
- It would have been nice if she could use the Shieldwing as a shield to and not just a glider.
Youre completely right. It's like every team that was in charge of a certain mechanic completely failed to communicate with each other. Combat has nothing to do with overworld has nothing to do with traversal.
Combat also seems to have nothing to do with the weapon upgrade system. I have no idea how they ruined a perfectly fine weapon system with whatever the fuck is going on in this game.
Bro, Tenakth were warriors, not architects and clever people like Carja. Have you ever seen the video where the senior concept lead is talking about how they took inspiratuon for tenakth tribes aestethics? You would understand the creative process behind every detail... ✌️ peace. Still, decima engine gives us beautiful and immersive scenarios 🌌💜
You do make a handful of decent points but there are 3 big red flags for me in this video. 1, you complain about skill tree locking the skills you want further down the tree forcing you to get other skills before its almost like if they allowed you to get the best skills early it would be game breaking and literally every single action adventure RPG game does this. 2, you complain about enemies forcing you to do combos to break their stances in spear combat but you are showing the pit gameplay....that is the ENTIRE POINT of the pits it forces you to use those combos because its teaching you how to do them......they are optional spear combat tutorials, I never once was forced to use a combo in free combat. 3, you complain about stealth not being able to manipulate enemies paths or be able to use other enemies against each other when you have rocks to manipulate the paths and Berserk arrows to turn machines against other enemies. Its almost like you didn't actually use all the systems/resources available to you. IMO I'm doing way much more damage and taking machines down way easier and faster than in Zero dawn because they have allowed you to max/min your playstyle/gameplay loop that you enjoy by wearing a outfit that enhances the core skills that you want to focus on.....if you try to be a jack of all trades in this game like in zero dawn you simply will feel weaker.
Watched half, non of the points valid so far... Complaining why animals textures are so good.. really?
Once again fantastic commentary Adam!! Can’t get enough of these amazing videos
Well written critique. 👏👏
I'm only 9:52 into this so far, and I agree with the 'imaging' thing.
There've been a few times, after restarting the game, and get to the New Interlude: The Point of the Lance,
the processing orb sometimes doesn't look right at first and the lance sometimes isn't even visible until Aloy pulls it out.
(that may or may not be similar to what you were saying there)
And in regards to the light movement, I've never really noticed that. Guess I'm too focused on playing, lol.
The amount of stupid plot hole’s introduced with the rushed trash that is “nemesis” completely ruins this games narrative. And the reliance on a rogue Hephaestus to save the world is so dumb bcuz it couldve just slipped straight back into the cauldrons without helping them at all and why beta needed to “input” Hephaestus, by itself, into the printer in the first place was dumb as hell, hephaestus had already been tamed by gaia so theres no reason why beta couldnt have just connected a gaia controlled Hephaestus into the same printer and accomplished the same task. The zero communication and secretive final plan to take out the specters was beyond stupid, there was no reason for aloy to keep her plan to SAVE THE WORLD a secret from the people that were trying to help her save it just bcuz “this is between sisters”. Having tilda kill gerard was the most unsatisfying and stupid thing they couldve done with him although they did make the zeniths extremely boring and one dimensional villains so what does it really matter. This game shouldve ended with the far zeniths being defeated(NO NEMESIS) and that shouldve been the end of the story and series instead they decided to milk it into a third installment and give us faro plague 2.0 zenith edition unbelievably horrible writing and completely disrespectful to the greatness that was the first game and forbidden west up until this shit show of an ending
I haven't finished it because the Story put me off. Or the execution of it.
The best female protagonist was Ripley in Alien. I just cant get involved in a storyline that involves a weird manipulation of how men and women in any sense arnt realistic.
That get up animation length was ridiculous. Did it made game harder?, no, but it sure made combat annoying. Aloy swinging over desks with slight button push and then getting stuck in front of twigs was bad character control experience. Graphics were very pretty.
alot of the complaints you have are things you only start to notice with games you really enjoyed imo. also the glider clip shown is unfair. that deescalated faster than normal due to the game not wanting you to enter a quest area. you can immediately tell when the game starts pulling you down more vertically in that clip.
Yes it's good video, Guerrilla Games see it's video
Its insane you dont have more followers. The quality of the vid is top notch ! the only thing i would possibly add to the growth of the channel is to talk faster. But thats my own opinion
I had to double check that it's not a ubisoft game because it surely feels like one.
forbidden fun
haters gonna hate. couldn't even finish this video of lies. games amazing and shame on you for LOOKING for these miniscule problems
Touch grass
You sir have an underrated channels and this video made me realize why I love the first game more. In my opinion Zero Dawn had more focus, more satisfying progression, and a much better narrative. Finding out who Aloy is, what happened to the world before, and seeing her prove herself is more interesting. Whereas in Forbidden West there were tons of complex narrative elements they tried to make work but didn’t. Zero Dawn’s world felt like it had a lot without feeling too big, and Forbidden West went really big at the expense of feeling bloated by the end. Something I felt the first game didn’t have. The world and environment felt natural in Zero Dawn and in Forbidden West it felt disjointed like you said. And as much as I like the new gameplay and combat additions I feel like fights in this game got too messy. I do think it’s a good game but they fumbled a bit on this one. Again, coming from someone who loved the first and considered it a 10/10 title.
The amount of stupid plot hole’s introduced with the rushed trash that is “nemesis” completely ruins this games narrative. And the reliance on a rogue Hephaestus to save the world is so dumb bcuz it couldve just slipped straight back into the cauldrons without helping them at all and why beta needed to “input” Hephaestus, by itself, into the printer in the first place was dumb as hell, hephaestus had already been tamed by gaia so theres no reason why beta couldnt have just connected a gaia controlled Hephaestus into the same printer and accomplished the same task. The zero communication and secretive final plan to take out the specters was beyond stupid, there was no reason for aloy to keep her plan to SAVE THE WORLD a secret from the people that were trying to help her save it just bcuz “this is between sisters”. Having tilda kill gerard was the most unsatisfying and stupid thing they couldve done with him although they did make the zeniths extremely boring and one dimensional villains so what does it really matter. This game shouldve ended with the far zeniths being defeated(NO NEMESIS) and that shouldve been the end of the story and series instead they decided to milk it into a third installment and give us faro plague 2.0 zenith edition unbelievably horrible writing and completely disrespectful to the greatness that was the first game and forbidden west up until this shit show of an ending
Lol it's funny cause I love the beach and sand, lighting and more. Very nitpicky but fun video nonetheless!
Lol ngl you sound like the fun police, but you made some valid points
Yea there’s some valid points but the bulk of the vid is nitpicky criticism that can be applied to almost every game
99% agree with your insights, yet still love this game.