In german magazines the term Power Metal was first used for american bands like Savatage (best sample may be the song "Rage"), Armored Saint, Vicious Rumors or early Fates Warning ("Kyrie Eleison") and so on. Later on in the eighties they differnciated between european and american Power Metal.
Yes! US Power Metal precedes European Power Metal by a few years. I'd say Helloween were the pioneers of the European variant - which was in essence an "extra melodic" branch of Speed Metal. Neo-Classical influences are very important so Yngwie and others deserve a lot of credit there too. The US deserves credit for pioneering the first US Power Metal bands BUT Europe deserves massive credit for being the place where those bands actually found a fanbase. If you look at where bands like Warlord, Manowar, Virgin Steele, Jag Panzer and Iced Earth found a "home" - it's Europe. Back in the 80s and early 90s, I believe most people would simply call all that music simply "Heavy Metal" but when the European Power Metal movement emerged - those bands found a fanbase by touring with the European bands - magazines and promoters would package bands like Iced Earth and Blind Guardian together on tours and it would work because while their sounds were different - it still appealed to largely the same fanbase. US Power Metal is less based on Speed Metal, it's less "Neo-Classical" - and it's a lot more "riff-oriented". I'd say one of the proto-typical US Power Metal songs is Queen of the Ryche by Queensrÿche - recorded in summer 1982. I'd say it represented a real advancement on the NWOBHM sounds it was influenced by. Over-the-top vocals from Geoff Tate and semi-Thrashy riffing from Chris DeGarmo. Obviously it wasn't quite "Thrash" but it definitely has a slightly more crunchy/punchy sound than the NWOBHM, and the overall "Theatricality" of it was something built upon the just-released first few Maiden albums. Simply put - If European Power Metal is in essence Iron Maiden with more speed - then American Power Metal is in essence Iron Maiden with more balls and heaviness!
Short-lived band from the 90s with a vocalist that sometimes sounds a bit like Geoff Tate was New Religion from New York. Vocalist was Stearns Bullen. I'm familiar with their 1994 EP & the songs Lost Love & Through These Eyes, but I've never heard their 1996 full length LP. Pete & Martin could do an entire episode on bands like this. New Religion, Prodigy, Mystic-Force, Slauter Xstroyes, Fisc, Zions Abyss, Adramelch, Dark Quarterer & on & on...
Helloween were a thrash band that became a standard metal band later on,as far as i am concerned there are no power metal records/bands before 87,this was a lable banded about in 86 describing thrash bands,it wasnt till much later,maybe even the ninties till we actually heard bands that could be described as what we know now as power metal.....Metal Church a power metal band?? are you guys joking??...Dio? Manowar? WASP??????..Really...y&t?...I had a chuckle
Martin and Pete are really the best music criticism in all of music today. Two total pros who have an understanding of the genre and wisdom to have experienced these eras in real time. I am always blown away at the quality of what they talk about regardless of the subject.
To me, the definition of power metal has changed to mean bands like Blind Guardian, Helloween, Edguy, etc. Everything mentioned here is just heavy metal. You guys forgot Virgin Steele btw.
@@fabiopatane9160 he told me in a recent chat that he doesn't own any of their albums. They're so friggin' underrated, their albums from 1994-2000 are some of the absolute BEST and most artistic heavy metal ever released!
Good point! You have the same name Michael Hudson of a great economist out of Missouri-Kansas City - that’s just awesome too! It’s fun to dissect the genre!
Great overview of great power and traditional US heavy metal legends. Two that can be added to the long list: Leatherwolf and Obsession. Happy to see Helstar got mentioned!
When I think of USPM, I think of these bands: Manilla Road Virgin Steele Vicious Rumors Liege Lord Lizzy Borden (early) Warlord Lethal Demon Flight Manowar Keel (early) Iced Earth Metal Church Sanctuary Medieval Steel Malice Jag Panzer Banshee Warrior Fifth Angel Cirith Ungol Leatherwolf Omen Odin Chastain Black Death Sound Barrier THOR (Canadian) Griffin Crimson Glory Helstar Heir Apparent Fates Warning (early) Queensryche (early) Culprit Halloween Agent Steel Wild Dogs Railway The Rods Riot (Thundersteel-forward) Savatage These bands helped establish the US variant of Power Metal. I don't know if there is a "Big 4" though. Maybe Virgin Steele, Manowar, Manilla Road and Savatage?
@@enriqueagaton9515 Power Metal is an extension of Heavy Metal anyway... these listed bands all exist in a kind of "spectrum" in between Heavy Metal and Power Metal. It's okay to call them either, but calling them Power Metal does acknowledge that they were pushing things forward into a newer territory. The term "Heavy Metal" has a slightly "traditionalist" connotation to it, so I believe that people like calling them Power Metal to give a little credit to the fact they were pushing boundaries and not mere "traditionalists" rehashing Heavy Metal cliches.
“Warrior” off ‘Rock City’, the 1977 debut by Riot could be the first Power Metal song or at least created the blueprint. A Galoping rhythm with double bass drumming, dual guitars and soaring vocals. Check it out. They are definitely an influence on Power Metal and would create one of the greatest Power Metal albums some years later with ‘Thundersteel’.
I always thought it was funny about how Helloween ended up being the German version of Iron Maiden because Weikath has stated serveral times that he was always a much bigger fan of Judas Priest than he was of Maiden.
@@Mofos_of_Metal I would even add something odd that’s not discussed enough - Iron Maiden are at their best when they are exercising their proto-power phase - “Where eagles dare”, “The trooper”, “caught somewhere in time”, “Only the food die young”, “Moonchild”, “Aces High”, “Flash of the blade “ and many more . They such nowadays because they lack songs like these - borderline power metal
I am 59, and a Brit. I believe origins of Power Metal actually goes back to the 1970's, and band's like Rainbow. If we are talking about America in the early 80's and Power Metal, what about Virgin Steele? I loved the first album, a highly underrated album that fitted in great with the NWOBHM that I was playing.
Popoff and Pardo are it again with an interesting analysis and consideration of power metal. Once again, Martin and Pete certainly dig down below any personal detailed knowledge on this topic but, as always, they kept my interest with the discussion. The footnote or offshoot discussion of album reviews contemporaneous with the issuance of classic albums is a great topic and Martin is spot on that it would make a fascinating book. Having just turned 68, was listening to a lot of these albums and reading reviews that could be found in Rolling Stone and elsewhere. One example that has always stuck in my mind is RS's initial published review of the Exile On Main Street album from the Rolling Stones band. But I digress. Thanks, gents, for another fascinating show that always makes Fridays a bit better. There ya go!
Enjoyed the discussion, great stuff! An overlooked band from the late 80s to the mid 90s is Vicious Rumors. Those albums with Carl Albert on vocals beginning with Digital Dictator up to Word of Mouth are solid imo. Carl was an incredible vocalist, tragically gone too early. A band that only had one release in 1992 (As Darkness Reigns), was Prodigy from Florida, went on to change name to Oracle. Brent Smedley, eventually going on to Iced Earth, is on the recording, & James MacDonough went on to play bass for them two separate times, & also filled in on tour for Nevermore & Strapping Young Lad. Another lesser known is Slauter Xstroyes, from Illinois. Winter Kill (1985) is solid. Honorable mention from Europe going into the 90s onward (1990-2007), Sweden's Morgana Lefay.
I think that the song Fast as a Shark by Accept influenced a lot of German Speed Metal and as it became more super-melodic - influenced also by Iron Maiden - you ended up with Power Metal. The US variety of Power Metal never based itself on Speed Metal so much, it tended to be more mid-tempo and closer to Traditional Metal in it's riffing but still advanced enough to feel like a "new thing" even though it didn't sound AS dramatically innovative as the Thrash that was emerging simultaneously - it was still new. A good point was made about Metal Church - they were doing something new! but it was overshadowed by the likes of Metallica who were going in a more radical direction.
@@joshuascott3428 I do but only because US Power Metal is a pretty wide and loose term that applies to Metal that doesn't neatly fit elsewhere. I guess you could just call them "Heavy Metal" but they pushed it farther than most Traditional Metal with their Thrashy rhythms and added "Power" and theatrics.
@@Mofos_of_Metal yes see i would almost see them especially from the debut thru something wicked American thrash (as opposed to European which is more extreme) and European power metal
Great episode. My five cents growing up in Sweden in the 70s and 80s. I think the 80s definition US-metal is much better than the recent uspm tag. US-metal as in classical heavy metal from the US. Early efforts by Liege Lord, Omen, Savatage, Fates Warning, Queensryche, Attacker, Helstar, Armored Saint, Manilla Road, Manowar, Bloodlust, Savage Grace, Warlord etc. are all classic heavy metal. Sure some are speedier and more aggressive than the classics, i.e. Agent Steel, Jag Panzer, Savage Grace etc. but that was the natural progression of metal in the 80s and those aspects don't warrant the power metal tag in my opinion. Speed metal maybe, but using the power metal label is just nonsens in my opinion, this probably due to me despising what the glorious german heavy metal scene became post 1988.
For me when I think of American Power Metal, I think Manowar, Jag Panzer and Omen. Some of the other bands in this episode I feel are either Speed Metal or Traditional Metal. Great topic and discussion 🤘
The origins of power metal begin with Ronnie James Dio (fantasy themes), Judas Priest (Halford’s piercing vocals on songs like Dreamer Deceiver-Deceiver, Victim of Changes and Dissident Agressor, etc), Scorpions, Accept in Germany then later with Yngwie (post Blackmore neoclassical style), Manowar, Iron Maiden, Cirith Ungol; throw in Gamma Ray too.
This was a fun chat. I'm a Boomer who only knew A7X from the radio until LIBAD came out. Brad didn't think the long tunes on the early albums indicated underlying prog tendencies. I think they've never been a verse chorus verse band outside of Hail tt King. Brad gets what LIBAD was about, but doesn't appreciate the balls it took to risk alienating most of the fans. The live show was amazing and they're supposedly doubling down with Cosmic on the immiment last leg of the US tour. Will see them again.
Would be cool if there was something like a link to a playlist of all the music that was discussed. Maybe on Spotify or maybe just youtube-links. I'm always so interested in hearing all that music that was on the show.
great episode guys. i agree with the timeline of purple, rainbow, then nwobhm, omen, savatage, etc and then to europe with helloween. For me it's two schools USPM and then the more melodic european style.
Thanks for mentioning WatchTower, Pete. Having seen 'em countless times during the '80s, I always considered them arguably the first true prog metal band (Dream Theater, Fates Warning and others have cited them as an influence). Cool hearing you guys mention Vicious Rumors, the Shrapnel label stable, as well. Overseas, I might add Tad Morose, too (particularly the "A Mended Rhyme" album after Urban Breed took over on vocals).
Metal fans wouldn't have used the term "Progressive (or Prog) metal" in the 1980s, as "prog" was still a dirty word back then, because the backlash of the term was still around originating from the Punk era of 1977-1978. I remember bands like Watchtower, Fates Warning,Crimson Glory & even the 1st album by Death Angel being called "Technical" metal. Also, in most cases of what we would call "early" Power metal today, was called "Speed metal" back then.
big four of US power metal? Manilla Road, Manowar, Savatage and Virgin Steel probably, but again lots more groups are great, Cirith Ungol, Crimson Glory, Jag Panzer, Armored Saint, Riot, Helstar, Savage Grace, Liege Lord, and Agent Steel all deserve a shout, there are a lot of forgotten ones too. A great time of metal, I wish as things later got more extreme that more people kept with the older singing style.
@NobleSavage1985 Even though I love Virgin Steele (we have talked on this before) Manowar was absolutely amazing, and one of the main prototypes for much of what I like in metal. And their records were more available and popular, so certainly for me I have a decade of appreciating Manowar before I even knew who VS was. They were also a lot smarter then people gave them credit for, smart guys writing stupid music maybe, but better than the opposite.
Strip down the macho image, and the lyrical concepts, and Manowar is basically 1970s style Proto Metal played as Heavy as possible, without straying too far from their basic Black Sabbath, Uriah Heep, Deep Purple, and Led Zeppelin roots.
The history of rock 'n' roll is one of influence going back and forth across the Atlantic. (Kudos to Mike Portnoy for turning that into a bandname, btw). This trend is very clear with the development of power metal. The proto band is Rainbow I think with the neo-classical stuff from Blackmore and the themes from RJD. Then comes all the NWOBHM bands, and a few German, which imo sparked all the early US bands like Manowar, Savatage, Queensryche, Omen etc. (Battle Cry is my favorite early US power metal album, bought as Martin mentioned as an import and thus more exiciting somehow). Power metal as we think about it today started then back in Europe with Halloween. Back and forth and everything gets better that way😊
Power Metal used to describe Metal that was Heavier than average Hard Rock Heavy Metal. Hit Parade magazine used to contain adds defining Slayer - Hell Awaits as Skull Crushing Power Metal. Power Metal now means mellow music played at high speed. Saturated with keyboards, weak gently tapping of drums at hyper speed, sugary chorus lines. The decision of having 2 separate micro genres of European, and US Power Metal is beyond ridiculous. The USA bands are Speed Metal, and the European Power Metal bands are simply high energy AOR. That's how people would have described them in the 1980s, and that is what they should be marketed as today.
If l had the disposable cash , and the power. I would do everything that I could to banish, and forbid the silly micro genres such as European Power Metal, US Power Metal, Suicidal Black Metal, Melodic Death Metal, North Eastern Asian Supremist Black Metal, ETC. Basically Heavy Metal, AOR, Speed Metal, Thrash Metal, Doom Metal, Hardcore Punk, and Death Metal are actually enough
About Vicious Rumours, Pete, you mentioned the first three albums and said *than they petered out which means they came to an end "and than these bands go away!"* (Quote) ??? Here is a list what Vicious Rumors have released since 1990: Welcome to the Ball (1991) Word of Mouth (1994) Something Burning (1996) Cyberchrist (1998) Sadistic Symphony (2001) Warball (2006) Razorback Killers (2011) Electric Punishment (2013) Concussion Protocol (2016) Celebration Decay (2020) Plug In and Hang On: Live in Tokyo (Livealbum, 1992) A Tribute to Carl Albert (Livealbum, 1995) The First Ten Years (VHS, 1996) Crushing the World (DVD, 2005) Live You To Death (Livealbum, 2012) Live You To Death 2 - American Punishment (Livealbum, 2014)
People always think of bands like Iced Earth, Blind Guardian, Helloween, Rainbow, and Gamma Ray. The aforementioned bands are the Heaviest by far in the micro genre of Power Metal. Having listened to 100s of European Power Metal bands, I can assure everyone that most are a whole lot softer in sound. Gravedigger jumped on the bandwagon, but are arguably just a Traditional Metal band
Anybody out there listen to Kick Axe? I really got into their first album "Vices". Are they considered power metal? Have they ever been mentioned on this channel?
NWOBHM was 1979 - 1982. Basically the same type of movement occurred in the USA from 1982 - 1986 . When these underground Metal acts started appearing either with Donald Duck + Cookie Monster Vocals and iverted cross necklaces, or in lipstick and spandex with party songs . The whole Metal scene had exploded into several separate directions.
Wild Dogs by The Rods has a wicked album cover! Didn't know the band before but listened to the album on TH-cam 'cause of the cover and the music's pretty cool too!
I’d add Leatherwolf, especially their second album, and Odin in the mix of weirdly termed Poverty Metal, with Leatherwolf being more well known over Odin. And I would add April Wine to the Proto Power Metal grouping. Considered AOR for the time, but the building blocks were there lyrically.
Great episode. Knew pretty much all of the bands but you guys now have me interested in Sound Barrier and Highway Child. Also, a bit out of your timeline but Ices Earth has capped the banner for USPM for a long while.
Your right. It used to be old Helloween, Rage, Grave Digger, Running Wild, Blind Guardian, and similar bands. The term then was highjacked by the frilly, wimpy, keyboard driven drivel of the 2000’s and beyond.
The start of it I would think of Uriah Heep, Deep Purple, Scorpions. First album: Rainbow Rising. From US I would expect to hear Riot in the top 3. Iced Earth could have been mentioned and Jag Panzer as well.
Cool discussion. I never really believed in a "big four" even of thrash, but yes, I think a lot of this stuff did come from the North American bands. Vinnie Moore was mentioned but I don't recall Vicious Rumors coming up here...Vinnie played on their first album and that early stuff is definitely borderline power metal. Glad Manilla Road got a mention; not really sure how power metal they are but they are my favourite metal band so always nice to hear their name come up on SoT.
Rainbow were the first power metal band. So different from ANYTHING that was going around at the time. So like everything musically good, the UK was the birthplace.
A lot of the US power metal bands have a heaviness that to my ears, sounds like a response to the heavier N.W.O.B.H.M bands not named Venom... think Savage, Tank, Motörhead, Diamond Head. I think the legend would be a match between Cirith Ungol and Manilla Road, while the list would contain the likes of Agent Steel, Omen, Liege Lord, Brocas Helm, Fates Warning, Armored Saint, Metal Church, Vicious Rumors, Sanctuary, early-ish Lizzy Borden, Attacker & Savatage.
Can Armored Saint be disqualified based on vocals? Bush rarely ever pushed his voice that high, and piercing high notes are arguably mandatory for the genre.
Cirith Ungol were the first,I believe. At least their first two albums were what we could call the proto-power metal albums... And maybe Rainbow... But Manowar were the first power metal band.
I'm not how much Helloween was influenced by USPM in general but Michael Kiske was hired, because Michael Weikath wanted some one like Geoff Tate after hearing Queensrÿche's Queen of the Reich.
Interesting Show you guys brought up the subject of reviews of the early hard rock albums, and bands Being 10 years older than you guys. I got to witness the release of all these albums, and seeing all these groups like Sabbath, Purple Zeppelin live, including Edgar winner with Ronnie Montrose on guitar Humble Pie Rock. Radio really embraced them. Some of the FM stations were more into like Country Rock and eclectic and they did not embrace these heavy bands. The suburban stations played them all the time. I remember reading a review on Rainbow Rising in Rolling Stone, and I think the guy dismissed the record if I remember, but he was totally complaining about the lyrics on. "Do You Close Your Eyes" he had a statement like I don’t care if this singer closes his eyes or not why should we care . All so, there’s a podcast called "Bellybutton Window Jimi Hendrix" and they go day by day of Jimi life and they read reviews that came out and talk about live concerts and a lot of these straight reviewers say that it’s just noisy music and then when he plays Red House the blues song they say oh, he’s an accomplished blues player. In other words that heavy stuff went over their heads, but they thought he was a quality musician when he slowed down and played the blues missing the whole heavy point of Hendrix younger reviewers seem to think he was phenomenal.
Should really have Riot in as an early innovator, and I'd definitely include Virgin Steele and Q5 in the list. The single genre labels would probably start in the UK, possibly Stiff could count , the NWOBHM labels like Neat certainly.
You first need to define whats power metal. A lot of press and bands in the US coined the term (metallica, pantera, etc) rather whimsically during the 80s. Meanwhile in Europe during the same time , what eventually end up being called powermetal in the 90s, was more an evolution of speed metal (nowadays considered a missing link between heavy and thrash). So there are 2 "power metals" to me.
I think Jag Panzer was a pretty big oversight :) Realm and Toxik I think for the more speedy/progressive side. Titan Force is another one. Even Kiss - Creatures Of The Night would be a great example. And of course Warrior. Riot is one of the really big ones - particularly Thundersteel which is practically Euro power. And definitely Impellitteri
If you’re going to include Dio that has American and European members then you have to include D.C. Cooper’s bands, Royal Hunt and Silent Force. Also don’t forget Shadow Gallery.
When it comes to European bands , the influence of ABBA mustn't be undermined. A lot of the very playful and happy sounding tunes like I Want Out or the poppy tunes of Stratovarius come undeniably from a euro pop place.
Metal Church is thrash,like Annihilator or Exciter... Y&T is fantastic pick,also Agent Steel or Vicious Rumors I think was in that road... Lizzy Borden and W.A.S.P. are shock thing...
A few omissions (power metal era Riot with albums like Thundersteel and The Privilege of Power... and Jag Panzer with Ample Destruction in 1984)... but a great episode guys, from an era very dear to my heart as I grew up with most of those bands. Yeah, between glam metal and thrash which were hogging all the spotlight here in North America, there was little room left for these bands that didn't really fit these labels.
Yeah it started with Rainbow then Yngvie malmsteins rising force then later Rhapsody and so on. Judas priest was the original Gothic metal band. Then Warlord iron Maiden. Early queensryche. And early fates warning Mercyful Fate
The Big 4 US Power Metal Bands - IMO: Chastain Vicious Rumors Racer X Sanctuary A lot of the mentioned ones like Fates Warning, Queensryche, Manowar, Metal Church, Dio, Savatage, W.A.S.P., … are - IMO - more Progressive or Traditional Metal and not primary US Power Metal …
stvari su jednostavne. postoji evropski power metal kao i američki power metal. svaki heavy metal fan čuje razliku između američkog i europskog power metala kao što čuje razliku europslog thrash, black, death metala od amerčkog. ovo uplitanje bendova u rasponu od Candelmass do Nasty Savage je besmisleno..
Depends really, Helloween are just basically the German Iron Maiden, so are Maiden Power Metal? If so, it starts with Maiden. But, Venom seem to get the credit for everything these days - so Venom invented it! 😂
Little surprised you didn’t mention Riot Thundersteel total American power metal classic.
It's the single most important American contribution to power metal as it exists today. US power metal is a different genre altogether.
I think the biggest influence on power metal are Rainbow, especially the song Kill the King which I consider as the first power metal song.
Martin, i would say Armored Saint deserves a spot into the big 4 of U.S. power metal for sure.
Yeah, they are fantastic, expecially Prichard.
In german magazines the term Power Metal was first used for american bands like Savatage (best sample may be the song "Rage"), Armored Saint, Vicious Rumors or early Fates Warning ("Kyrie Eleison") and so on. Later on in the eighties they differnciated between european and american Power Metal.
I agree except for Fates Warning that for me is definitely Progressive Metal.
Yea, Savatage is what I consider when I think of the term. And John Arch-era FW for sure.
Yes! US Power Metal precedes European Power Metal by a few years. I'd say Helloween were the pioneers of the European variant - which was in essence an "extra melodic" branch of Speed Metal. Neo-Classical influences are very important so Yngwie and others deserve a lot of credit there too.
The US deserves credit for pioneering the first US Power Metal bands BUT Europe deserves massive credit for being the place where those bands actually found a fanbase.
If you look at where bands like Warlord, Manowar, Virgin Steele, Jag Panzer and Iced Earth found a "home" - it's Europe.
Back in the 80s and early 90s, I believe most people would simply call all that music simply "Heavy Metal" but when the European Power Metal movement emerged - those bands found a fanbase by touring with the European bands - magazines and promoters would package bands like Iced Earth and Blind Guardian together on tours and it would work because while their sounds were different - it still appealed to largely the same fanbase.
US Power Metal is less based on Speed Metal, it's less "Neo-Classical" - and it's a lot more "riff-oriented".
I'd say one of the proto-typical US Power Metal songs is Queen of the Ryche by Queensrÿche - recorded in summer 1982. I'd say it represented a real advancement on the NWOBHM sounds it was influenced by.
Over-the-top vocals from Geoff Tate and semi-Thrashy riffing from Chris DeGarmo.
Obviously it wasn't quite "Thrash" but it definitely has a slightly more crunchy/punchy sound than the NWOBHM, and the overall "Theatricality" of it was something built upon the just-released first few Maiden albums.
Simply put - If European Power Metal is in essence Iron Maiden with more speed - then American Power Metal is in essence Iron Maiden with more balls and heaviness!
Short-lived band from the 90s with a vocalist that sometimes sounds a bit like Geoff Tate was New Religion from New York. Vocalist was Stearns Bullen. I'm familiar with their 1994 EP & the songs Lost Love & Through These Eyes, but I've never heard their 1996 full length LP. Pete & Martin could do an entire episode on bands like this. New Religion, Prodigy, Mystic-Force, Slauter Xstroyes, Fisc, Zions Abyss, Adramelch, Dark Quarterer & on & on...
Helloween were a thrash band that became a standard metal band later on,as far as i am concerned there are no power metal records/bands before 87,this was a lable banded about in 86 describing thrash bands,it wasnt till much later,maybe even the ninties till we actually heard bands that could be described as what we know now as power metal.....Metal Church a power metal band?? are you guys joking??...Dio? Manowar? WASP??????..Really...y&t?...I had a chuckle
Queensryche?..Metal band,nothing more always were still are
@NobleSavage1985 they might be one of the most underrated bands out there.
Fundamentally wrong.
I admit I am not a fan of power metal but enjoyed your conversation and I learned a lot about this genre. Much appreciation!
Martin and Pete are really the best music criticism in all of music today. Two total pros who have an understanding of the genre and wisdom to have experienced these eras in real time. I am always blown away at the quality of what they talk about regardless of the subject.
To me, the definition of power metal has changed to mean bands like Blind Guardian, Helloween, Edguy, etc. Everything mentioned here is just heavy metal. You guys forgot Virgin Steele btw.
I feel Pete has kept ignoring Virgin Steele all these years, for some mysterious reason.
@@fabiopatane9160 he told me in a recent chat that he doesn't own any of their albums. They're so friggin' underrated, their albums from 1994-2000 are some of the absolute BEST and most artistic heavy metal ever released!
Virgin Steele is even a NYC band, pretty much in Pete’s neighborhood.
Good point! You have the same name Michael Hudson of a great economist out of Missouri-Kansas City - that’s just awesome too! It’s fun to dissect the genre!
@@fabiopatane9160probably doesn't like them. He doesn't talk about bands he doesn't like. He doesn't talk about Running Wild either.
Great overview of great power and traditional US heavy metal legends.
Two that can be added to the long list: Leatherwolf and Obsession. Happy to see Helstar got mentioned!
When I think of USPM, I think of these bands:
Manilla Road
Virgin Steele
Vicious Rumors
Liege Lord
Lizzy Borden (early)
Warlord
Lethal
Demon Flight
Manowar
Keel (early)
Iced Earth
Metal Church
Sanctuary
Medieval Steel
Malice
Jag Panzer
Banshee
Warrior
Fifth Angel
Cirith Ungol
Leatherwolf
Omen
Odin
Chastain
Black Death
Sound Barrier
THOR (Canadian)
Griffin
Crimson Glory
Helstar
Heir Apparent
Fates Warning (early)
Queensryche (early)
Culprit
Halloween
Agent Steel
Wild Dogs
Railway
The Rods
Riot (Thundersteel-forward)
Savatage
These bands helped establish the US variant of Power Metal. I don't know if there is a "Big 4" though. Maybe Virgin Steele, Manowar, Manilla Road and Savatage?
I though they were HM bands, what makes them Power instead of Heavy Metal?
Jag Panzer inclusion made me smile
Iced Earth & Chastain. Yep
@@enriqueagaton9515 Power Metal is an extension of Heavy Metal anyway... these listed bands all exist in a kind of "spectrum" in between Heavy Metal and Power Metal. It's okay to call them either, but calling them Power Metal does acknowledge that they were pushing things forward into a newer territory.
The term "Heavy Metal" has a slightly "traditionalist" connotation to it, so I believe that people like calling them Power Metal to give a little credit to the fact they were pushing boundaries and not mere "traditionalists" rehashing Heavy Metal cliches.
your list had bands I have not heard in 20+ years.
“Warrior” off ‘Rock City’, the 1977 debut by Riot could be the first Power Metal song or at least created the blueprint. A Galoping rhythm with double bass drumming, dual guitars and soaring vocals. Check it out. They are definitely an influence on Power Metal and would create one of the greatest Power Metal albums some years later with ‘Thundersteel’.
I always thought it was funny about how Helloween ended up being the German version of Iron Maiden because Weikath has stated serveral times that he was always a much bigger fan of Judas Priest than he was of Maiden.
Power metal was conceived the UK with Ranbow Rising and David Byron era Uriah heep, but was given birth in continental Europe by Helloween
It's important to separate Proto-Power from actual "Power Metal". You're right that those were massive influences, along with Iron Maiden.
@@Mofos_of_Metal I would even add something odd that’s not discussed enough - Iron Maiden are at their best when they are exercising their proto-power phase - “Where eagles dare”, “The trooper”, “caught somewhere in time”, “Only the food die young”, “Moonchild”, “Aces High”, “Flash of the blade “ and many more . They such nowadays because they lack songs like these - borderline power metal
Riot, Virgin Steele, Jag Panzer, Helstar, Liege Lord, Lizzy Borden, Leatherwolf, Meliah Rage, Omen, Warrior, Iced Earth…
I am 59, and a Brit. I believe origins of Power Metal actually goes back to the 1970's, and band's like Rainbow. If we are talking about America in the early 80's and Power Metal, what about Virgin Steele? I loved the first album, a highly underrated album that fitted in great with the NWOBHM that I was playing.
Popoff and Pardo are it again with an interesting analysis and consideration of power metal. Once again, Martin and Pete certainly dig down below any personal detailed knowledge on this topic but, as always, they kept my interest with the discussion. The footnote or offshoot discussion of album reviews contemporaneous with the issuance of classic albums is a great topic and Martin is spot on that it would make a fascinating book. Having just turned 68, was listening to a lot of these albums and reading reviews that could be found in Rolling Stone and elsewhere. One example that has always stuck in my mind is RS's initial published review of the Exile On Main Street album from the Rolling Stones band. But I digress. Thanks, gents, for another fascinating show that always makes Fridays a bit better. There ya go!
Riot - Thundersteel
Enjoyed the discussion, great stuff! An overlooked band from the late 80s to the mid 90s is Vicious Rumors. Those albums with Carl Albert on vocals beginning with Digital Dictator up to Word of Mouth are solid imo. Carl was an incredible vocalist, tragically gone too early. A band that only had one release in 1992 (As Darkness Reigns), was Prodigy from Florida, went on to change name to Oracle. Brent Smedley, eventually going on to Iced Earth, is on the recording, & James MacDonough went on to play bass for them two separate times, & also filled in on tour for Nevermore & Strapping Young Lad.
Another lesser known is Slauter Xstroyes, from Illinois. Winter Kill (1985) is solid. Honorable mention from Europe going into the 90s onward (1990-2007), Sweden's Morgana Lefay.
Even blind guardian and helloween started as speed metal
I think that the song Fast as a Shark by Accept influenced a lot of German Speed Metal and as it became more super-melodic - influenced also by Iron Maiden - you ended up with Power Metal. The US variety of Power Metal never based itself on Speed Metal so much, it tended to be more mid-tempo and closer to Traditional Metal in it's riffing but still advanced enough to feel like a "new thing" even though it didn't sound AS dramatically innovative as the Thrash that was emerging simultaneously - it was still new. A good point was made about Metal Church - they were doing something new! but it was overshadowed by the likes of Metallica who were going in a more radical direction.
@@Mofos_of_Metal so do you consider iced earth stylistically us power metal
@@joshuascott3428 I do but only because US Power Metal is a pretty wide and loose term that applies to Metal that doesn't neatly fit elsewhere. I guess you could just call them "Heavy Metal" but they pushed it farther than most Traditional Metal with their Thrashy rhythms and added "Power" and theatrics.
@@Mofos_of_Metal yes see i would almost see them especially from the debut thru something wicked American thrash (as opposed to European which is more extreme) and European power metal
Good discussion Martin and Pete, that's a spot-on observation about Watchtower's influence on 90s death metal bands
Great episode. My five cents growing up in Sweden in the 70s and 80s. I think the 80s definition US-metal is much better than the recent uspm tag. US-metal as in classical heavy metal from the US. Early efforts by Liege Lord, Omen, Savatage, Fates Warning, Queensryche, Attacker, Helstar, Armored Saint, Manilla Road, Manowar, Bloodlust, Savage Grace, Warlord etc. are all classic heavy metal. Sure some are speedier and more aggressive than the classics, i.e. Agent Steel, Jag Panzer, Savage Grace etc. but that was the natural progression of metal in the 80s and those aspects don't warrant the power metal tag in my opinion. Speed metal maybe, but using the power metal label is just nonsens in my opinion, this probably due to me despising what the glorious german heavy metal scene became post 1988.
Thanks guys great episode and topic!
Virgin Steele, Chastain, Jag Panzer,Attacker, Iced Earth, Titan Force, Slauter Xstroyes, Hittman, Fifth Angel, Glacier, Shok Paris, Obsession, Leatherwolf, Riot, Warrior, Lethal, Apollo Ra, Banshee
Helstar, vicious rumors, heretic, etc were some cool USA bands
Virgin steel, Manowar, omen and Liege Lord
@@cerveshred manilla road, brocas helm, cirith ungol, savage grace...
For me when I think of American Power Metal, I think Manowar, Jag Panzer and Omen. Some of the other bands in this episode I feel are either Speed Metal or Traditional Metal. Great topic and discussion 🤘
Another great show. Informative. Thx duo. Enjoy weekend 👍💯
*more importantly/. Safe travels. Pete/. BOSTON 👍💯
When I think of Power Metal, I think of the first album from Torch (it's either s/t or "Warlock"). Those dudes from motherfunkin' Sweden nailed it!
Rich catino is must invite guest for power and hair metal
Ernie and Bert you've been eating too many hash cookies with the cookie monster ........ VIRGIN STEELE ⚔
The origins of power metal begin with Ronnie James Dio (fantasy themes), Judas Priest (Halford’s piercing vocals on songs like Dreamer Deceiver-Deceiver, Victim of Changes and Dissident Agressor, etc), Scorpions, Accept in Germany then later with Yngwie (post Blackmore neoclassical style), Manowar, Iron Maiden, Cirith Ungol; throw in Gamma Ray too.
This was a fun chat. I'm a Boomer who only knew A7X from the radio until LIBAD came out. Brad didn't think the long tunes on the early albums indicated underlying prog tendencies. I think they've never been a verse chorus verse band outside of Hail tt King. Brad gets what LIBAD was about, but doesn't appreciate the balls it took to risk alienating most of the fans. The live show was amazing and they're supposedly doubling down with Cosmic on the immiment last leg of the US tour. Will see them again.
I feel Iron Maiden were a huge influence on power metal
Would be cool if there was something like a link to a playlist of all the music that was discussed. Maybe on Spotify or maybe just youtube-links. I'm always so interested in hearing all that music that was on the show.
Where is that Sabbath review show Martin was talking about?
What about Manilla Road?
Nice houses
Sword "Metalized" from Canada. Pretty much defines that sound. Agent Steel. Armored Saint should be the fourth in the big 4
Top five old definition European Power metal bands:
1. Running Wild
2. Helloween
3. Rage
4. Grave Digger
5. Blind Guardian
Stormwitch
great episode guys. i agree with the timeline of purple, rainbow, then nwobhm, omen, savatage, etc and then to europe with helloween. For me it's two schools USPM and then the more melodic european style.
Thanks for mentioning WatchTower, Pete. Having seen 'em countless times during the '80s, I always considered them arguably the first true prog metal band (Dream Theater, Fates Warning and others have cited them as an influence). Cool hearing you guys mention Vicious Rumors, the Shrapnel label stable, as well. Overseas, I might add Tad Morose, too (particularly the "A Mended Rhyme" album after Urban Breed took over on vocals).
Metal fans wouldn't have used the term "Progressive (or Prog) metal" in the 1980s, as "prog" was still a dirty word back then, because the backlash of the term was still around originating from the Punk era of 1977-1978. I remember bands like Watchtower, Fates Warning,Crimson Glory & even the 1st album by Death Angel being called "Technical" metal. Also, in most cases of what we would call "early" Power metal today, was called "Speed metal" back then.
big four of US power metal? Manilla Road, Manowar, Savatage and Virgin Steel probably, but again lots more groups are great, Cirith Ungol, Crimson Glory, Jag Panzer, Armored Saint, Riot, Helstar, Savage Grace, Liege Lord, and Agent Steel all deserve a shout, there are a lot of forgotten ones too. A great time of metal, I wish as things later got more extreme that more people kept with the older singing style.
Agent Steel and Virgin Steel...good call there!
Omen
@NobleSavage1985 Even though I love Virgin Steele (we have talked on this before) Manowar was absolutely amazing, and one of the main prototypes for much of what I like in metal. And their records were more available and popular, so certainly for me I have a decade of appreciating Manowar before I even knew who VS was. They were also a lot smarter then people gave them credit for, smart guys writing stupid music maybe, but better than the opposite.
Strip down the macho image, and the lyrical concepts, and Manowar is basically 1970s style Proto Metal played as Heavy as possible, without straying too far from their basic Black Sabbath, Uriah Heep, Deep Purple, and Led Zeppelin roots.
Before Helloween and Yngwie don’t forget about TNT. Debut in 82.
Savatage, Dio, Armored Saint, Manowar, Randy era Ozzy, Warlord Warrior, Odin, Alcatrazz with Yngwie definitely
The history of rock 'n' roll is one of influence going back and forth across the Atlantic. (Kudos to Mike Portnoy for turning that into a bandname, btw). This trend is very clear with the development of power metal. The proto band is Rainbow I think with the neo-classical stuff from Blackmore and the themes from RJD. Then comes all the NWOBHM bands, and a few German, which imo sparked all the early US bands like Manowar, Savatage, Queensryche, Omen etc. (Battle Cry is my favorite early US power metal album, bought as Martin mentioned as an import and thus more exiciting somehow). Power metal as we think about it today started then back in Europe with Halloween. Back and forth and everything gets better that way😊
I love power metal especially the bands Iced Earth, Rhapsody and its spinoffs, Blind Guardian and Helloween!
Power Metal used to describe Metal that was Heavier than average Hard Rock Heavy Metal. Hit Parade magazine used to contain adds defining Slayer - Hell Awaits as Skull Crushing Power Metal. Power Metal now means mellow music played at high speed. Saturated with keyboards, weak gently tapping of drums at hyper speed, sugary chorus lines. The decision of having 2 separate micro genres of European, and US Power Metal is beyond ridiculous. The USA bands are Speed Metal, and the European Power Metal bands are simply high energy AOR. That's how people would have described them in the 1980s, and that is what they should be marketed as today.
If l had the disposable cash , and the power. I would do everything that I could to banish, and forbid the silly micro genres such as European Power Metal, US Power Metal, Suicidal Black Metal, Melodic Death Metal, North Eastern Asian Supremist Black Metal, ETC. Basically Heavy Metal, AOR, Speed Metal, Thrash Metal, Doom Metal, Hardcore Punk, and Death Metal are actually enough
About Vicious Rumours, Pete, you mentioned the first three albums and said *than they petered out which means they came to an end "and than these bands go away!"* (Quote) ???
Here is a list what Vicious Rumors have released since 1990:
Welcome to the Ball (1991)
Word of Mouth (1994)
Something Burning (1996)
Cyberchrist (1998)
Sadistic Symphony (2001)
Warball (2006)
Razorback Killers (2011)
Electric Punishment (2013)
Concussion Protocol (2016)
Celebration Decay (2020)
Plug In and Hang On: Live in Tokyo (Livealbum, 1992)
A Tribute to Carl Albert (Livealbum, 1995)
The First Ten Years (VHS, 1996)
Crushing the World (DVD, 2005)
Live You To Death (Livealbum, 2012)
Live You To Death 2 - American Punishment (Livealbum, 2014)
People always think of bands like Iced Earth, Blind Guardian, Helloween, Rainbow, and Gamma Ray. The aforementioned bands are the Heaviest by far in the micro genre of Power Metal. Having listened to 100s of European Power Metal bands, I can assure everyone that most are a whole lot softer in sound. Gravedigger jumped on the bandwagon, but are arguably just a Traditional Metal band
Yeah!!! Pete Pardo & Martin Popoff in the house!!! 😃🤘
Anybody out there listen to Kick Axe? I really got into their first album "Vices". Are they considered power metal? Have they ever been mentioned on this channel?
Rage from Germany were definitely a ground breaking power metal outfit
Rainbow was a british band with an american singer. I consider Rising from 1976 the first ever power metal album.
NWOBHM was 1979 - 1982. Basically the same type of movement occurred in the USA from 1982 - 1986 . When these underground Metal acts started appearing either with Donald Duck + Cookie Monster Vocals and iverted cross necklaces, or in lipstick and spandex with party songs . The whole Metal scene had exploded into several separate directions.
Wild Dogs by The Rods has a wicked album cover!
Didn't know the band before but listened to the album on TH-cam 'cause of the cover and the music's pretty cool too!
I’d add Leatherwolf, especially their second album, and Odin in the mix of weirdly termed Poverty Metal, with Leatherwolf being more well known over Odin.
And I would add April Wine to the Proto Power Metal grouping. Considered AOR for the time, but the building blocks were there lyrically.
Yeah. Love Leatherwolf, specially Street Ready
Hammerfall, Edguy and Striker! Just discovered Striker about a month ago. Check out their new album "Ultrapower"
Great episode. Knew pretty much all of the bands but you guys now have me interested in Sound Barrier and Highway Child. Also, a bit out of your timeline but Ices Earth has capped the banner for USPM for a long while.
And, who the hell cares about Rolling Stone; a magazine run by impotent hippies.
I find it interesting that modern day "Power Metal" is melodic, light and fluffy with little 'Power" involved.
It's Evolving
@@kevinsmith7-7-7 Yeah. Into pop music. Not a slag. Just an observation
"European power metal"
@@independenceltd. Exactly. Sounds like ABBA with distortion and double bass drums. Again, not a slag, just an observation.
Your right. It used to be old Helloween, Rage, Grave Digger, Running Wild, Blind Guardian, and similar bands. The term then was highjacked by the frilly, wimpy, keyboard driven drivel of the 2000’s and beyond.
The start of it I would think of Uriah Heep, Deep Purple, Scorpions.
First album: Rainbow Rising.
From US I would expect to hear Riot in the top 3. Iced Earth could have been mentioned and Jag Panzer as well.
Cool discussion. I never really believed in a "big four" even of thrash, but yes, I think a lot of this stuff did come from the North American bands. Vinnie Moore was mentioned but I don't recall Vicious Rumors coming up here...Vinnie played on their first album and that early stuff is definitely borderline power metal. Glad Manilla Road got a mention; not really sure how power metal they are but they are my favourite metal band so always nice to hear their name come up on SoT.
Carnivore, Juggernaut, Warrior, Virgin Steele, Gothic Knights
Iced Earth??
Iced Earth was the first band I thought of when they announced the topic.
Rainbow were the first power metal band. So different from ANYTHING that was going around at the time. So like everything musically good, the UK was the birthplace.
manowar certainly is in the 4, all other lists are silly!
A lot of the US power metal bands have a heaviness that to my ears, sounds like a response to the heavier N.W.O.B.H.M bands not named Venom... think Savage, Tank, Motörhead, Diamond Head. I think the legend would be a match between Cirith Ungol and Manilla Road, while the list would contain the likes of Agent Steel, Omen, Liege Lord, Brocas Helm, Fates Warning, Armored Saint, Metal Church, Vicious Rumors, Sanctuary, early-ish Lizzy Borden, Attacker & Savatage.
One of the best US metal albums in my collection: Griffin's Flight Of The Griffin.
Can Armored Saint be disqualified based on vocals? Bush rarely ever pushed his voice that high, and piercing high notes are arguably mandatory for the genre.
Cirith Ungol were the first,I believe. At least their first two albums were what we could call the proto-power metal albums... And maybe Rainbow... But Manowar were the first power metal band.
Great point! Nobody was making music like Frost & Fire in 80
I'm not how much Helloween was influenced by USPM in general but Michael Kiske was hired, because Michael Weikath wanted some one like Geoff Tate after hearing Queensrÿche's Queen of the Reich.
It's astounding how similar they are but still, great runs by each band when they first joined
Interesting Show you guys brought up the subject of reviews of the early hard rock albums, and bands Being 10 years older than you guys. I got to witness the release of all these albums, and seeing all these groups like Sabbath, Purple Zeppelin live, including Edgar winner with Ronnie Montrose on guitar Humble Pie Rock. Radio really embraced them. Some of the FM stations were more into like Country Rock and eclectic and they did not embrace these heavy bands. The suburban stations played them all the time. I remember reading a review on Rainbow Rising in Rolling Stone, and I think the guy dismissed the record if I remember, but he was totally complaining about the lyrics on. "Do You Close Your Eyes" he had a statement like I don’t care if this singer closes his eyes or not why should we care . All so, there’s a podcast called "Bellybutton Window Jimi Hendrix" and they go day by day of Jimi life and they read reviews that came out and talk about live concerts and a lot of these straight reviewers say that it’s just noisy music and then when he plays Red House the blues song they say oh, he’s an accomplished blues player. In other words that heavy stuff went over their heads, but they thought he was a quality musician when he slowed down and played the blues missing the whole heavy point of Hendrix younger reviewers seem to think he was phenomenal.
Nice signed Dio LP Martin!!! Yeaaahh man!! 🤘
He’s got all the classics signed haha
@@michaelhudson2912 he’s a great guy too. He’s featured on my channel a few times now.
Should really have Riot in as an early innovator, and I'd definitely include Virgin Steele and Q5 in the list. The single genre labels would probably start in the UK, possibly Stiff could count , the NWOBHM labels like Neat certainly.
I Will say that Yngwie have some power metal ideas on his firts albums
True, his firts albums as well as his secnod ones
One key U.S. album from 1984: Jag panzer - Ample Destruction
American power metal and European power metal are two different things; there are some similarities but they're not the same.
You first need to define whats power metal. A lot of press and bands in the US coined the term (metallica, pantera, etc) rather whimsically during the 80s. Meanwhile in Europe during the same time , what eventually end up being called powermetal in the 90s, was more an evolution of speed metal (nowadays considered a missing link between heavy and thrash). So there are 2 "power metals" to me.
Is Nosferatu by Helstar great? Is Helstar severely underrated?
Strip down the macho image, and the lyrical concepts, and Manowar is basically 1970s style Proto Metal played as Heavy as possible.
I think Jag Panzer was a pretty big oversight :) Realm and Toxik I think for the more speedy/progressive side. Titan Force is another one. Even Kiss - Creatures Of The Night would be a great example. And of course Warrior. Riot is one of the really big ones - particularly Thundersteel which is practically Euro power. And definitely Impellitteri
Yep, the biggest. Nice call.
If you’re going to include Dio that has American and European members then you have to include D.C. Cooper’s bands, Royal Hunt and Silent Force. Also don’t forget Shadow Gallery.
Agent Steel
When it comes to European bands , the influence of ABBA mustn't be undermined. A lot of the very playful and happy sounding tunes like I Want Out or the poppy tunes of Stratovarius come undeniably from a euro pop place.
Metal Church is thrash,like Annihilator or Exciter... Y&T is fantastic pick,also Agent Steel or Vicious Rumors I think was in that road... Lizzy Borden and W.A.S.P. are shock thing...
A few omissions (power metal era Riot with albums like Thundersteel and The Privilege of Power... and Jag Panzer with Ample Destruction in 1984)... but a great episode guys, from an era very dear to my heart as I grew up with most of those bands. Yeah, between glam metal and thrash which were hogging all the spotlight here in North America, there was little room left for these bands that didn't really fit these labels.
And Martin wrote glowing reviews of Ample Destruction, to boot.
So, what is the definition of Power Metal?
Still clueless 🤷♂️
Iron Maiden is the biggest power metal influence
This took FOREVER to get going, Geez !!!!
Wow, sorry if a two minute lead in is too much for you…
CANDLEMASS? They are a perfect doom metal band!
They certainly are, but that’s not the topic of the show.
I always forgot Stormwitch
Yeah it started with Rainbow then Yngvie malmsteins rising force then later Rhapsody and so on. Judas priest was the original Gothic metal band. Then Warlord iron Maiden. Early queensryche. And early fates warning Mercyful Fate
Savatage, Malice, Warlord were the forerunners of POwer Metal. They were Power metal. Then came Helloween and the german attack....
The Big 4 US Power Metal Bands - IMO:
Chastain
Vicious Rumors
Racer X
Sanctuary
A lot of the mentioned ones like Fates Warning, Queensryche, Manowar, Metal Church, Dio, Savatage, W.A.S.P., … are - IMO - more Progressive or Traditional Metal and not primary US Power Metal …
The Big 4 European Power Metal Bands - IMO
Helloween
Blind Guardian
Running Wild
Grave Digger
@avage1985 - in your oppinion 🤣 - and it's more traditional than power metal 😉
Pete you absolutely must check out Wings of Steel for a Crimson Glory/Queensryche fix. Trust me.
im into this probably 30 min and i haven't heard Manowar?? waiting patiently! lol
Martin with the win!
stvari su jednostavne. postoji evropski power metal kao i američki power metal. svaki heavy metal fan čuje razliku između američkog i europskog power metala kao što čuje razliku europslog thrash, black, death metala od amerčkog. ovo uplitanje bendova u rasponu od Candelmass do Nasty Savage je besmisleno..
Pantera guys
Depends really, Helloween are just basically the German Iron Maiden, so are Maiden Power Metal?
If so, it starts with Maiden.
But, Venom seem to get the credit for everything these days - so Venom invented it!
😂
Black Sabbath -Pentagram & Sir Lord Baltimore in U.S.A.