There is another aspect about the connection of prog & metal that rarely - if ever - gets talked about: Both genres are often made by, marketed towards and listened by people who would consider themselves "outsiders", "introverts" or "nerds". Almost everyone I know that listens to metal / prog and weird music in general felt at some point in their life a certain melancholy, loneliness, and were often called out for their dark humor and their tendency to daydream. My theory is that prog and metal are the predecessors of "extreme genres" - styles of music that tried to bend and step over the boundaries over what is considered "listenable" and "reasonable". Many music nerds today are for example into bands like Death Grips, Swans, Lingua Ignota or the like. Probably bands that would not be considered "prog" or "metal", but certainly "extreme" and highly provocative.
I was the only one in my whole school that listened to "extreme" metal back in the early 80's e.g. Venom, Hellhammer (and then Celtic Frost), Voi Vod etc. But that didn't really bother me, it was just a shame I couldn't discuss it with anyone
The nerds thing I do understand. However, I didn't think that prog fans were outsiders. I do know that they're nerds though, which is totally cool. Metalheads being outsiders makes a lot of sense. I wouldn't say that I'm an introvert. I do however, do spend a lot more time listening to music than hanging out with my friends and making new friends, which I definitely need to do more of. But there's so much music I like/need to listen to that I total forgot about other people in my life, and I do need to get better at that.
@@takodabostwick8507 Hey Takoda :) In my opinion (and probably also in the opinion of modern day psychology) an introvert is not automatically a person that is "lonely" or doesn't have friends. Heck, I know a lot of people that are talkative and lots of fun in groups, but who would consider themselves "introverts". Being introverted mainly means that being by yourself is something that is relaxing for you. So in that sense, people who are comfortable being "by themselves" also usually don't find it hard to listen to an album in its entirety, in the dark, with headphones, completely immersing themselves in an experience that others might consider "unpleasant" or "disturbing".
The same applies to Punk, Indie Rock, Psychedelic Rock etc. In my experience Prog is not at all music of outsiders. With metal and punk you need to be very specific which band at which time was music for outsiders because the musical landscape changed a lot, e.g. Metallica in 1991 wasn‘t music for outsiders.
Deep Purple, Uriah Heep, Black Sabbath, Sweet, Nazareth, AC/DC, Scorpions, Rainbow, Whitesnake, Thin Lizzy, Bachman Turner Overdrive, we back in the 70's Called it HardRock
As a Prog fanatic since the age of 12, the Prog Snob tendency that makes me laugh the most is their resolute hatred of anything under 5 minutes long, and insistance on calling any song under 5 minutes "pop" whether the song in question actually exhibits any pop elements or not. But I just shrug the Prog Snobs off. So, they're missing out on a lot of great music. Not my issue. Rock On!
Prog and pop CAN coexist and it's gonna take a lot of work to dismantle the narrative that they cannot. It's just the natural progression of one's craft - if one thing you're doing isn't working try something else and see how it goes. Though I do love a great deal of the works these prog bands made in their prime, every single prog band I've seen go pop, NAILED IT! No exceptions. Not to mention prog-gone-pop and shorter material also gives prog junkies something to play in front of not yet enlightened people.
As rock music fans in the seventies, my friends and I declared that we liked heavy and progressive music. Some bands had a clear distinction, but many did not. We rarely, if ever, used the term heavy metal.
I heard music like Yes, Renaissance and King Crimson because my older brother and father listened to them and I heard opera and classical music my whole life - and now i still listen to opera and classical but mostly metal - symphonic metal,death metal,folk metal, progressive metal, I think because only hearing good music and no pop or anything like that
For me talent in the lead vocals portion of a song is important.. the growels of early Opeth and Dream Theater... I think the masses agree with me as both bands grew up and realized this wasnt going to sell albums.
Pete and Martin. I don’t know if you guys have ever seen The Musical Box, a Genesis tribute band. Well I saw them last night in Norwalk, Connecticut, they preformed The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. It was a mind blowing show. Absolutely incredible. You guys must see this outfit if they play near you.
The Musical Box is really, really talented. Their reproduction of the individual tours was/is phenomenal. The Foxtrot and Selling England tours were great too.
Pete, all I have to say about your justified rant is: You review albums when you feel like it. I was glad to to see you bring back the "what you've been listening to" video recently, and I don't know, who among us has time to check out all the new releases In The Exact Moment anyway? I watch this channel because I like the personalities involved and I want to learn about new music. That first thing does count for a lot. I am curious about what you think of various albums, but you can tell me today, next week, or next year -- doesn't matter at all really.
I was a teenager during the 1970's. The cool crowd listened to what was called "hard rock." This included everything from Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, the Stones, Beatles etc. Nerds listened to pop music on AM radio. Music wasn't divided into genres then. Hard rock was basically for kids who experimented with drugs to some extent. The perfectly well adjusted kids without grievance usually weren't attracted to hard music. Later generations categorized music. Most of the people on these music platforms did not experience our music first hand. Therefore, they will never really get it. Just like I will never really get big band music. It doesn't mean later generations can't enjoy music from any age. It just makes me laugh when they attempt to break down its origins. You just had to have been there, in my opinion to really get it. You need to have experienced the culture and time it was produced to call it your music.
Like one commenter below, I was under the impression (based on the title) that this video was going to cover the two highlighted 'camps' vis-à-vis musical appreciation on the whole. Now knowing that this isn't the case, I'll proceed accordingly. I won't get into the 'which 'group' is more receptive to the other' business; instead, I'll just talk about my own personal feelings on the matter. Of the two genres / sub-genres in question, I'm undoubtedly a bigger fan of progressive rock. Certainly, getting into it changed my entire world, musically speaking; Broadened my horizons immeasurably. While I can see the parallels between progressive rock and metal, I think it all comes down to style and personal taste; Enjoying the latter works best for me when listening to it in small / fair doses. There's something about its timbre that has not agreed with me whenever I've attempted to consume copious amounts of the stuff; I would find myself losing interest, as it all started to come off as a bit monotonous, and lacking in varied dynamics (relatively speaking.) I can only get so much out of loud, heavy, distorted guitar riffs (whether simple or intricate) being the focal point for so long - good for a time, but afterwards, I need something more. Metalheads reading this will probably be incensed by these comments, but keep in mind, this is just my personal response / taste. With all that said, there are about a dozen (terrible guesstimate) metal bands of whom I consider myself a fan. Outside of that, it's bits and pieces here and there. I couldn't ever say that I outright dislike metal. EDIT: When it comes to listening habits, there are major differences between those who listen for a living (whether part-time or full-time), and those who don't. Captain Obvious, but many from both groups constantly intermingle on here, and with this, certain expectations arise from both sides. An entire video could have been devoted to this topic; would've been a very interesting one. I can't immediately recall if it has already been done.
I think age and when you came in is very important. I am a fan of both metal and prog. But I am a little younger than older prog fans I come across on the internet. They started with ‘classic’ rock/hard rock and prog in the 1960s and 1970s. I started with metal and alternative rock in the 80s and 90s as a kid and then went back to explore prog. I think that makes a big difference. I notice older music fans from the 60s and 70s are more hostile and sceptical to the musical movements that come after the mid 70s: punk, new wave, Eighties metal, grunge, alternative/indie. You see that pattern emerge, and opinions remaining even now. So there’s more open mindedness in looking back than in looking forward and what was a new movement at the time.
@@jimmycampbell78 Our paths seem similar. I grew up in the '80s and '90s (mostly the latter), listened to both alternative and metal artists, then in 2000, I got into progressive rock. Agree with your comments on the generational thing; I see everything you mentioned all too often (online, and off.)
I totally understand the snobby argument of both prog and metal camps, but these two camps are so informative and care so much for the music - it’s mainly been a great learning experience for me and I’m thankful to them.
I witnessed the Mortal Remains event at the V&A Museum and found it quite moving. It's a must experience for all Floyd fans. It is such a frustrating mess that two intelligent articulate men can no longer communicate with each other on a level that matters.
I became a progressive rock fan as a kid due to my dad's music taste. I took to Yes and never looked back but I love glam rock, hard rock and metal. I don't really like one genre more than the other because I just like music and sometimes I want to hear the complicated or more intricate music vs the aggressive sound.
I love fusion, funk and soul jazz as well as Prog Rock. I want to believe that I’ll accept everything from PFM to Alphonse Mouzon. Thanks Pete and Martin. Great debate and discussion.
"The Lemmy Factor"! But hey, for some reason a percentage of metal fans seem to need to define their manhood by how heavy and/or threatening their music is. Never understood it.
In order of releases, here’s a list of definites that fused Prog-Metal: -King Crimson -Jethro Tull -Gentle Giant -Kansas -Rush Honorable mentions: -Camel -Hawkwind -Soft Machine -Mahavishnu Orchestra
Hmmm.... would be interesting to do a poll about if prog fans enjoy other genres vs metal fans, and get some sort of real time data, because as a fan who loves both, I come across waaaay more metal fans who are more close minded and less apt to venture beyond their given taste (even down to the type of metal genre). I don't agree with the headline/original question, my experience tells the opposite.
And see, I know WAY more metal fans who will listen to and like prog and plenty prog fans who won't sniff anything that's metal. I think it goes both ways...but, there's no way to quantify it, but it made for a fun conversation.
@@seaoftranquilityprog Yeah most of the comments (maybe all) including mine are anecdotal. Everyone knows of specific examples to 'prove' either argument
I dipped my toes into both. In the past 5 years alone I've went from Eurovision junkie to power metal enjoyer to progger. So basically I went from 3 minute songs maximum to 6 minute songs minimum. A shift I never saw coming
A big thank you to Pete for continuing to champion Opeth. I'm one of those "never death metal" guys that was eventually won over. They are just too damn great at what they do to ignore, even with the death growls of the earlier albums. I'm probably not their typical fan. I try not to get too hung up on labels.
Not sure either group has the lock on open-mindedness, or close-mindedness for that matter. But I've seen examples of both extremes from fans of both genres.
Gotta say i have a metalhead friend and he is pretty close minded when it comes to other genres than what he listens to. Imagine being a metalhead who disses Rainbow, Black Sabbath and Deep Purple. The classics! And I try to get him into prog but it's so hard to get him to appreciate anything. Even some more complex metal not necessarily prog is hard for him to get into. He just sticks to the basic straight in your face stuff. Such a shame since there is very much to enjoy out there both in prog and metal, and even the stoner area! I'll keep showing him stuff till it clicks, I believe everyone can enjoy these genres.
Same here. I find it ti be the contrary depending on the age of the person, boomers seem to be more closed minded if they are Prog fans, I’m a Gen’xer and a Prog head, but I am very open minded to music, not much of a metal fan though.
@@erorufurakku6378 very true, the quote still reminds me, but I try not to put the same band over and over on him, just find new stuff and have him listen to it whenever, if he likes it it's fine, not like he didn't like any prog, he quite enjoys Porcupine Tree. Cheers!
There are two types of metal fans ones who want the music who drives their lack of concentration and the others who listen to complex structures which are derived from classical music
I'm not a Prog guy myself but I'll stick up for the fans of Prog Rock. I can totally see why they may be put off by some of the staples of the Metal genre. When so much of Metal is always raging at an 11, it can become obnoxious and monotonous for some. I used to be a huge Hard Rock/Metal fan and now I listen to the kind of stuff barely discussed on this channel (Post-Punk/Alt Rock/Indie). Watching this channel is nostalgic fun for me but yeah, I understand where some Prog Rock fans are coming from with their shunning of the heavier stuff.
One of the interesting crossover events was Steven Wilson producing Opeth. With Blackwater Park Opeth really started to lean into prog, while Porcupine Tree started to do the metal riffs with In Absentia. One band considered mostly metal, the other the poster child for modern prog, but both of them cooperating brought them a lot closer together sonically. And I think for many fans those bands were a crossover into the other genre.
Respect for both your rants guys. I totally get the time constraints and you won't hear from me "where is your review" or to change your mind. And as to the question "that ruins your day Martin", I will NEVER ask you that - I will just read your work!!
I remember in junior high(late summer 83 to spring 85),metal fans were in to metal and that was it.They never had time for Duran Duran,Prince,Hall and Oates or other non metal acts that were popular at the time. We never used the word "prog" back than because we didn't even know that word.I don't recall any one ever talking about Yes,ELP,Jethro Tull,King Crimson,Marillion etc. Of course,at the time,the only prog act that was popular were Yes,but none of my friends were in to them.Genesis of course were still doing well,but I doubt any of my classmates could name one of their songs from the first six albums.
speaking of Hawkwind. Simon (Reynolds) says that the advance cassette of My Bloody Valentine's Isn't Anything sounded better than the LP and CD releases. Hawkwind are my example of that. I had a cassette of Hall Of The Mountain Grill and the eq/mix of The Psychedelic Warlords (Disappear In Smoke) sounded fantastic! (an inspiration for World Of Twist's Sons Of The Stage?). but when I later bought the vinyl I was surprised to find the same track sounded muted/duller. maybe somewhere there is a vinyl pressing that matches the clarity and brightness/energy of the cassette - a project for future freetime (and when the wantslist runs low).
I have to say that I LOVE prog, but I like metal too. To me, it’s not so much about the classification, it’s about the quality of the music. I don’t stick w/ a genre.
Best way to listen to music I'd by yourself! Most people when they say it sucks or it's just showmanship in most cases don't own what your playing and can't be rational , so in these cases what u do is crank it to shake the rib cage level! 😊
Both groups can be close minded at times, not everyone though, we're all different. I was born in the 70's, grew up in the 80's, so I definitely love the hard rock/metal genres the best BUT I really enjoy prog too, I always liked a lot of Rush's stuff but I also liked a lot more prog than I thought I did. Supertramp, Yes, Styx, King Crimson etc. all had songs I liked, watching your channel and a few others, it really opened my mind up to a lot of stuff I wouldn't have been caught dead listenng too, years ago. Prog bands like Gentle Giant, I like some of it, don't like some of it, I like Genesis but never really got into the Peter Gabriel stuff but there are songs I like now. I like what I like I guess but I'm not as close minded as I once was, even newer metal or new stuff from older bands, I wouldn't really give it much of a chance, now I 'll listen to more modern albums, I have found a lot of cool bands, looking at new and vintage bands I never used to care for, or even knew about. Sorry for the long winded comment. lol Cheers guys.
I (65 yo) am a prog fan who loves metal very much and my son (20 yo) is a metal and punk fan who loves prog very much... Our general taste combined goes from the 1950s till today.
I would love to meet your son! He and I would make great buddies! I love all of that stuff. I also love modern metal as bands. The progressive metal bands now are awesome, but I also love symphonic metal bands like Epica, Nightwish, Within Temptation, Leaves' Eyes and Delain. And I never got the punk vs metal vs prog thing! That's just bull crap to me. Why can't you like all the other stuff?
I think there might possibly be a snobbery factor at play in prog - just as there is jazz snobbery (ie): the emphasis on virtuosity, sophistication, etc.
@@garyh.238 You find it in metal too. Coincidentally, "prog metal". Or whatever name you might have for it. How many times have you heard a Rush fan tell you that "smart people" listen to them?
I was a teenager in the 80's and my experience then was the opposite to what the title of this video suggests. My friends who were getting into Slayer, Megadeth, etc. were rejecting the 70's prog bands and ignoring what bands like Rush and Yes were evolving into. Maybe now that we are in our 50's we former metal heads are more accepting of prog because of acts like Dream Theater, Porcupine Tree, et al, but this has not been the case from the start, at least from what I remember.
Getting into music in the late 70’s early 80’s in the UK - at the time of NWOBHM - rock fans tended to like a range of music that could be divided into subgenres like hard rock, folk rock, prog rock and heavy metal. At gigs and in rock pubs you’d see denim jackets that invariably featured diverse patches and badges across the previously mentioned sub-genres - which tends to suggest that metal/prog are not mutually exclusive - their fans were often the same people. Back then though, in the UK, music was very, very tribal. You wouldn’t see rock fans having patches or badges featuring punk bands for example, and punks typically wouldn’t go to see metal bands either as there was a completely different ethos. That doesn’t mean to say heavy rockers didn’t like other music, just that there was a clear divide between tribes, crossed by very few bands.
I have a denim jacket and I have a ton of patches on my jacket. Both punk and metal, alongside classic rock. I've got The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, The Who, The Kinks, Led Zeppelin, Green Day, All Time Low, Sum 41, Metallica, Megadeth, Slayer, Black Sabbath, Misfits, Bad Religion, A7X, Cannibal Corpse, Iron Maiden, The Cure, Queen, ACDC, Kiss, NOFX, Rancid, Queensryche, Pink Floyd and many more. Hopefully by today or tomorrow, I will get a Motorhead and Judas Priest patch to add to my jacket. These 2 are especially required according to me to say that I'm a metalhead. Stupid, I know, but that's I think that has been told by metal fans. I was very happy to have a Kinks patch because they are just so awesome and definitely an underrated band. I love them more The Rolling Stones and Led Zeppelin. I want to get some progressive patches, but I want to have more punk and metal patches, so I'm not sure if I'm going to get them. I looked for a patch for The Moody Blues, but the patches look terrible, so I'm going to get another Moody Blues t shirt instead. Oh well. Some people gave me compliments on my jacket and thought that it looked cool and awesome. A lot of people wear their band jackets whenever they go to shows. I said that whenever I go to shows, I would wear my band jacket just like everyone else. I'm gonna have to give compliments to other people wearing band jackets and maybe start a conversation about the jacket, alongside with the show.
I've been told I'm an odd duck for liking both prog-rock and metal. Now, the caveat to that is I don't like harsh vocals. There are exceptions to that. The occasional growl, scream, or grunt in a word, or a few vocal lines I can deal with, but an entire song or album is too much for me to handle. Raspy vocals are alright too, but vocal quality is always a critical factor for me liking any music within my genre's. I consider myself mainly a progger, but I do step out every so often.
I feel bad. I’m an extreme fan and I was one of those people who was urging Pete to review this album. To my defense I was clueless that Rise was released before the album was. All I know was that several of my channels that I followed were raving about the Nuno solo in Rise and I mistakenly thought the album had been released already. SMH sorry about that Pete.
Metal came first for me. I loved everything heavy and like you guys said, metal fans dig into their bands and want to I know what makes them play the music they do. That is how I discovered bands being discussed as influences like Yes, Pink Floyd, Genesis, Camel, Kansas and ELP being spoken of so highly by bands that I loved I knew I had to give those guys a shot. Prog really became my go to. On top of that, progressive metal has really pushed the envelop and made me appreciate the musicianship and level of creativity all the more. This was a great episode. My only point of disagreement would be when I take in new music. Sometimes it may not gel with me on the 1st, 2nd, heck even 10th listen in cases but something finally clicks and really opens my ears to a level of appreciation. I do like the Extreme album as discussed and feel the same way. It has some great, great moments but overall it is just a good listen.
My dad and i have this kind of conversation all the time regarding prog fans, we both feel that they're not open minded because most of them tend to stay in their comfort zone and aren't willing to seek out new bands to listen to. They prefer to stay in the late 60s to mid 70s realm without changing, metal fans as open minded is an interesting way to describe them because while they do at times tend to stay in their own realm, they are at least always willing to give things a chance.I went to see Al Di Meola back in 2017 and there was a lot of metal fans in the audience which i thought was very unusual but interesting to see especially as he is more in line with the jazz style of music, he's a guitarist who does appeal to a lot of metal fans. It is a very interesting that's asked and one that will have a lot of different views.
I fit the mold quite tightly of only listening to 60s pop and 70s prog for the most part. Occasionally outside of that, I'll listen to Type O Negative or old death metal.
I am a prog fan and i prefer 60s/70s bands purely because i think they were better musically. but in saying that i'm always trying to find new bands and give them a chance. any suggestions always welcome.
I was in grade school during the 70s and in HS in the early 80s and an undergrad during the late 80s, so my take is a little skewed. I may have been a bit too young to really appreciate a lot of the classic prog groups but was really into hard rock and metal in the 80s, a decade known for metal. I am more of a hard rock/metal fan, but one of the first bands I was really a huge fan of was Rush. I like a lot of prog rock, but I am pretty selective of it. I can't stand Dream Theater, Peter Gabriel, or Genesis with Peter Gabriel, nor have I been much of a fan of Pink Floyd, though when I like a Floyd song, I really like it. There are also some Rush albums that I don't really care for, mainly the material after Signals until Vapor Trails (though the jury is still out on Counterparts and Test for Echo for me). Of course, there is a lot of metal I don't care for, such as Death Metal (sorry, but the vocals grate on me). But me age is showing through. Overall, I think prog rock fans are more snobbish than metal fans. Early metal fans tend to be more open minded than more recent metal fans. That's been my experience though. I think what biased me was to that opinion was my undergrad days. Guys that listened to bands like Yes and King Crimson thought their music was superior to anyone else's and looked down on metal heads. For me, I'll give it a group or an album a listen before jumping to a conclusion based solely on genre.
To your point of Iron Maiden and Dream Theater, Maiden is my favorite band, and I would put DT as my 4th, and I’m mostly a metal/rock guy but I enjoy prog as well. (Rush breaks my top 10 too) and I adore all of Maidens modern era as well which often has a prog label put on it and Seventh Son of a Seventh Son is one of my favorite albums by them which is certainly on the proggy side.
I think that a good few hard rock and metal fans had time for Marillion, at least during their years with Fish. Like Iron Maiden, they had cracking album covers at the time, especially for the first two albums. Songs like Heart of Lothian had an energetic heavy feel even if hits like Lavender were a grab for commercial success. They were a lot less poppy than early 80s Genesis, anyway.
I forgot to mention that Marillion were given a lot of coverage in magazines like Kerrang, which I think gave them an entryway into acceptance among many who (like me) might have listened mostly to heavier bands.
Popoff and Pardo are at it again with a bonus rant that was worth the wait. To respond to the final call by Pete, personally, it is often the vocals of the certain 'genres' and bands that distracts from the enjoyment of listening. Keep trying to get past that issue and listen to albums reviewed and discussed on SoT episodes but it often remains an issue. Perhaps just my age and long history of listening to more harmonic/melodic vocal stylings. But, never would have found Opeth's Damnation and later albums if not for SoT and continuing to try. As for the timing of reviews and listener's/viewers expectations, an expectation gap is not surprising and remain amazed at the amount of product reviewed on SoT. Never seem to catch up. Special thanks to Martin for sharing his Megadeth listening story near the end as it helped end with a great laugh. Thanks once again, gents, for your weekly shows. There ya go!
Flat death metal vocals are always a deal breaker... There has to be some semblance of vocal range in order for me to enjoy music. Similarly, I dislike most rap music due to the lack of vocal melody.
Regarding Eloy / metal (I'm just listening to the '79 album now after watching ITPS) -- I've always considered Eloy almost a proto power metal band, it seems like most of the German PM bands come from a very similar mold and the overall bombastic & epic narrative tone of their music is very similar, but I've never heard anybody else make that connection before. I've always wondered if any of the European Power metal bands especially in Germany have cited Eloy as a major influence.
Can't agree, I love Jazz but I also love fusion, prog, world music, electronic, ambient, avant-garde, classical, even what I would call some experimental pop artists like Bjork, Kate Bush, Tori Amos, Everything Everything, Roxy Music, David Bowie the list goes on. A lot of older prog rock fans are stuck in the past, they've forgotten the true meaning of progressive.
I would tend to agree (also as applied to fans of classical) but that's strictly speaking in terms of personal experience which obviously represents a VERY small sub-group of the much larger total fan base. These comments are all very much based on anecdotal 'evidence'
Good point. In fact it even occurs within jazz families. The Marsalis family for instance. Back in the mid-80's, it seems that jazz purist / trumpeter Wynton Marsalis almost disowned his brother, jazz saxophonist Branford Marsalis, for having sold out by lending his talents to Sting's project.
Sorry for over-commenting, but... a lot of the great prog players/composers talk about very diverse inspirations in music while growing up. That's how I was, and still am at age 62. That inspirational diversity doesn't seem to be there when you talk to more exclusively metal heads. I love metal, but I can't even imagine being encapsulated in it.
From my experience it's metalheads that are usually a lot more close minded and detest everything that's not HEAVY enough, god forbid. And i'm of course saying that as a generalization, being a metalhead myself and also loving pop, rap, electronic, prog, jazz, ect... So it is possible bu there is that obsession with heaviness and extrimity that people who only listen to metal need to let go off a little bit so they can enjoy other stuff.
There is definitely a difference - not so sure what it is I am really a metal fan and have been at many metal gigs. I recently went to a Riverside gig - prog band really, though they have some bits that are towards metal. The people there were clearly a different type of crowd to what is usually at metal gigs. I think the thing is the propensity for the prog audience to essentially stand there almost judging whether what they are getting is any good. Not in a nasty way, just somewhat more stand offish in general. Mariusz Duda was brilliant at dealing with that and moving the people there into a different space. Talking to us and encouraging participation. And he got it - and I would suspect he always does. He likes the joke of talking about part of a song and then saying 'we;ll get there in ,um, about 12minutes' (always 12 minutes)
I will never again take another album review written by Martin Popoff seriously. Near the end of this video he admits that he doesn't listen to some albums before reviewing them. He even says that when it's a band he "grew up with" he'll just skip around and play only 40 seconds of each song before writing a review. What a hack! He basically admits, as if it's no big deal, that he is the worst possible kind of reviewer - one that can't even be bothered to listen to the music he reviews. Think about it. When he's declaring an album to be great, like when he has declared recent Uriah Heep albums to be as good or better than the albums of their popular 70s heydey, has he even listened to any of it, or maybe just 40 minutes of each song? He's enough of a big name reviewer that people might buy or not buy albums based on his opinions. To find out he may not have even listened to whatever albums he is praising or criticizing makes his reviews absolutely worthless....There is a story that has been told by John Lees of Barclay James Harvest about a reviewer who gave a negative review to one of their albums. Lees later met this reviewer, who admitted that they had not actually listened to the album, but just looked at the cover art and read some song titles and lyrics. Does anyone think that's a fair review? I used to write CD reviews myself and kept t a self-made rule that I would listen to a (full) album a minimum of 4 times before reviewing, and even more if it was something that really deserved more attention. The four times rule, I felt, was a good way to deal with the fact that in prog especially, some albums would be "growers" and could not be judged in only one listen. I wonder how many Popoff reviews have portrayed an album unfairly because it was not given anything more than a cursory skipping through. I'm surprised that other SOT watchers have not commented on Popoff's flippant attitude towards reviewing,...I will no longer waste my time on any of this guy's reviews or books. SOT is usually a go to music show for me, but now in any episode with Popoff I will have to take the opinions on albums with a grain of salt, or maybe the whole shaker.
I find it to be the contrary with the people I know, the metal fans I know are far more close minded than myself that is not a metal fan, but a Prog fan, however, I also like many genres of music including punk, post punk, pop, funk, R&B, jazz, classical etc..My metal friends are not that open minded.
@mickmcnabb6147 I started out more as a metal head but then branched out now I have so many genres I enjoy. I wish I was more picky my wallet would like that too. Lol
I find this to be both shocking and not shocking at the same time. I do love punk and post punk as well as prog, but I do love my metal as well. Here's the question. Do you listen to only prog rock, but not prog metal? For example, Queensryche, Dream Theater, Opeth, Mastodon, Death, and Cynic. I saw Queensryche twice and they were awesome. I would not call post punk progressive punk personally. I would say that post punk is more artsy than prog, but that's just me. Nothing wrong with being artsy at all. Some of these rockers might consider themselves to be weird, and I'm an advocate for that. They're trying to make their music look more like art. Art is what you make of it. It's a way of forming your expressions. Art is very subjective. Some of them take more very seriously than others and get critical acclaim from critics. I'm not against rockers playing music for fun. Some music talks about partying, love, sex, drinking, drugs, and rocking out and having a fun time. Others might be very moody, dark, and depressive, maybe some angst. Who knows. But music is one way to express yourself, no matter if you are happy, sad, or angry.
@@takodabostwick8507 I like some Prog metal bands like Fates Warning, Death and Gojira, plus more, never liked Queenryche or Dream Theater, I think Dream Theater is a band of great musicians, but the music is cold and soulless, it’d just not my cup of tea.
@@sspbrazil very understandable. Bands like Opeth and Dream Theater have an acquired taste and if you like it, you like it and if you don't you don't tend to like it as much. I consider Opeth and Dream Theater a requirement to love the band, but that's just me. Along with Queensryche as well, but again, that's just me personally.
I think you should have brought Led Zeppelin to the conversation as well. They are neither a progressive rock band nor a metal band. But they have many songs that come in those categories. Firstly, metal: they have created some of the most metal ahead songs in their time that will still be undeniably called metal today. Communication Breakdown was the most metal sounding song till 69 and was the primary inspiration for the definitive metal song Paranoid, Immigrant Song was the most metal song till then, you have Over The Hills and Song Remains The Same which are basically folk metal. In My Time Of Dying, which is half blues rock and half heavy metal. For prog, they have Stairway To Heaven, which is so many things like folk, hard rock, metal, progressive rock epic; No Quarter, Rain Song; Kashmir is the heaviest progressive rock song ever made probably and it is not even metal, epic of epics and progressive beyond progressive; In The Light, Ten Years Gone. Then the definitive, archetypal progressive metal song: Achilles Last Stand, 12 years before Dream Theatre came. These songs have influenced so many of the contemporary and future bands to carve their own paths, especially in metal and progressive metal. Achilles Last Stand especially was Rush on steroids, the metal turned up along with the prog of Rush. These songs and the band is universally beloved, especially by metal bands and prog bands.
Great show. When I saw the title I was hey, that's not my experience with music fans, but the video explained it better. Pink Floyd was a prog band. Their early days had a lot of musique concrete, avant-garde, experimentation in sound and time signatures, long compositions (Atom Heart Mother & Echoes.) All of that fits into progressive rock. After DSotM they became less experimental and more organized with less improvisation. I always saw the differences as electric guitar oriented. Electric guitar playing is very important for metal fans and prog fans don't really mind what instrument is the lead one. I' listen to both, I'm more of a prog fan, but I do like to know what the vocalist is singing so the growling vocal style of death or black metal would be a turn off for me.
This topic would be better discussed with the guys from " In The Prog Seat " show. Every metal fan I interact with(save one) hate prog, and don't care for prog metal that much either(some like Rush, some don't). I have one close friend who's a metal fan who absolutely adores Jethro Tull, though(respects Martin Barre).
Why do we have to put labels on everything.Back in the day we might pick up a new Zeppelin,Heep,ELP and Neil Young and Cat Stevens it was just rock.Didn't need to put labels on anything it was rock
IMHO, Pink Floyd could almost be classified as a blues band. Gilmore style is definitely blues based, as I have heard him say in some interviews. Comfortably Numb is blues based, as is Money and Time.
That’s a big stretch. All rock is blues based so their would be some blues influence. But 90 percent of what they do is as far away from blues as it gets . So have to disagree Floyd could never be considered a blues band or even In he blues genre.
Great show guys….always look forward to Friday with Pete and Martin! Although I must admit I’m kind of surprised that neither Tull or Zeppelin were part of the conversation.
I've found the opposite in my experience when it comes to metal fans. I pretty much just listen to progressive metal from ~2010 onwards. However, modern prog can kind of almost mean anything these days from jazz/fusion all the way to the heaviest of death metal, or even mix the two in a cohesive piece together. I personally really love sharing music with people, and one of the things I have been doing the past few years on occasion, is finding twitch streams where they react to songs that you can request, or musicians that can improv things like drums/guitar with requests. Being someone who listens to a lot of modern prog, I still try and make sure I don't send the most absurd things to people but it's still not generally easy. I have pretty consistently found so many people where they love metal music, and the moment I request some prog song it's usually the same few responses. I either get people who say things like "wow I hate prog, it's all about shoving as many notes as possible into a song" or "I wish this song wasn't 6-8 minutes long, it's boring" which isn't the case for a lot of the things I listen to, and people seem to have a lot of impatience when it comes to music for some reason. All people aren't like this obviously, but some of these people who are, really refuse to enjoy anything that isn't in their own circle. Metal is already niche by comparison to all the other genres, and the gatekeeping has gotten unbelievably annoying over the past decade + on the internet. Myself for instance, I don't particularly like power metal for my own reasons like it feels a bit cheesy and song structures are generally the same across many bands, but with that being said, I don't hate power metal by any means. People getting into heavier genres of music is something I generally want because it's what I additionally partake in. But for some reason people REALLY hate prog. Prog isn't JUST dream theater, tool, opeth/ gojira and others about as popular as they are, and people generally won't put in the effort/work unfortunately needed to really dive into specific genres. The most opposite of my personal taste would be something like pop/rap music, but I don't exclude that from my musical lexicon because I don't want to be ignorant to any genre, as I respect music more than that in it's entirety. Lastly, if I spent as much time into those genres as I have with progressive metal, I would definitely have found things that personally appeal to me, it's just significantly less likely due to what I value in music like instrumentation/ arrangements/ etc. I like to be surprised when re-listening to songs simply by focusing on another aspect of the music regardless of the instrument. Metal with saxophone, violin, cello, all that shit is great and we need more of it.
I completely understand about the reviews. Not everyone can get advance copies of new releases to get that review out early. Also, everyone has different tastes and looks for different things out of the music they listen to. It's great to like what you like, and you should not go around demanding validation for your tastes from album reviews that people post online or in magazines or such.
JC Rock and Metal Reviews did a poll about 2 weeks ago and asked the community poll which band he should do the review on first. Of the five up there, my top 3 were A7X, Rancid and Foo Fighters. I wasn't so sure what to choose because I love all the bands. He commented and said he will review all the bands, whichever came first. So much music comes out on the same day that it can be difficult to do 3-5 videos in one day reviewing all the albums. He ended up doing the reviews and I believe that he liked all of them. I was happy to hear that and I loved all of these albums. I thought that they were awesome. 2023 has given us a ton of awesome music so far.
Much of this depends on one’s “formative musical years” (roughly 10 to 20, in my experience). I hit age 10 in 1984, so my basic senses of “prog” and “metal,” while they have expanded, are still much tamer and more 1970s-inflected than those of my younger brother, who hit 10 in 1992. Just 8 years apart, but the difference in our case is massive. Some of what I hear as noise, he hears as music. (Technology also plays a big role.) I’m broadening my horizons, as is he, but our foundations are not quite the same.
An idea for a Friday Morning Funhouse - what about a discussion of why some hugely popular 70s and 80s UK and European bands - say Slade, for example, were almost unknown in America at the time, and vice versa - a ginormous American band like Journey, which was almost unheard of - and never toured - in the UK, Europe and Australia?
So now, we're hating on Canadians, huh? Nah, I'm just messing with you. But seriously, that's why? That's total bs! The Canadians I do hate are the Montreal Canadiens and Tronto Maple Leafs because they have the 2 most Stanley Cups of all time, Montreal with 24 and Tronto with 13.
Glad you mention A7X, Pete. That new album is mind blowing, lots of things happening there, but so rewarding. Those guys might lose a lot of fans but at least they're not afraid of trying new things. It's awesome. btw, My fav Yes album is Relayer, and I've been listening to it for 40+ ... years :-) , and yet A7X blows my brains out! Meaning you can perfectly be a fan of both (and more). Great show! Cheers.
I like different types of music because I have different moods I get in and out of. I love the crunchy guitars and bottom end of metal. I don't like metal that is endlessly fast and repetitive. I love how Prog can change In a song like Band on the run, but when it goes to far like the first track on Gentle Giants Octopus I lose interest.
I don't care for free jazz yet jazz/rock fusion is my favorite genre, so I do need my music to be tied to a recognizable melody (at least most of the time)...Variety in music is important (at least to me), and pacing. To me early Genesis is almost a how-to when it comes to perfectly pacing their music (especially on the longer tracks). Many shredders (not all) don't seem to value this quality in music, it's straight-up full-on attack all the time with no opportunity to rest the ears & take a breath. Again not all but many...Quoting Miles: "It's not the notes you play, it's the notes you don't play"
@wolf1977 what your saying about shredding is how I feel too. Even if a Guitar player isn't thought of as Heavy Metal. The blues player Christone has got the same problem for me that Zakke Wylde has got. Way too much even though it's all very talented. After 30 seconds I'm thinking alright already save some for the next song. Miles Davis is correct. Freddie King is a great example. He can go 6 or 7 seconds or more without playing during a solo and then play the simplest lick or a note, and I'm thinking damn this guy was amazing. Because the note he played was correct for the blues chord progression, but he didn't play anything to get there.
@@1jammyjerry1 My personal 'poster child' is Yngwie. Props to someone like Paul Gilbert whose music has evolved (Marty Friedman too)...I used to absolutely love Cacophony & Racer X in my younger days, those chops just impressed the you-know-what out of me. Now there are probably very few players who can play like that but it's like with antiques - simply being rare/one of a kind doesn't make a piece necessarily valuable. There are other factors that play into it - I think many 'guitar slingers' ignore those other factors in favor of chops
Most fanbases tend to develop a certain form of elitism or another, resulting in being rather critical to radically dismissive when it comes to a lot of musical styles (they don't know that well) , of course each individual can always choose to go against his biases and to expend his musicals's horizon.
Preachhhh. Sure I have biases but I don't hold them firm, I at least give everything a shot when I get into bands. Some things take longer for me to acclimate to than others, and I like what I end up liking - no matter how fans perceive it. Sometimes I get with the crowd (ie. liking the Moody Blues Core Seven) and other times I run against them (ie. preferring Abacab to Selling England or BiG Generator to Topographic Oceans) but I follow one simple rule: if I think it sounds good, I like it.
If you start off as a Metal fan (Deep Purple, Black Sabbath etc) it's easy to listen to softer music later. Not the other way around... Like Prog? Borderline...
I would argue that almost any music nerd would study album credits, who produced the album etc., this has not so much to do with the genre and does not only apply to metal and prog but also to rock, hard rock, punk, ska, new wave, post punk, industrial, goth…
I'm 62 and was there during the formative metal years. Metal jumped the shark for me with "cookie monster " vocals. I hate that shit. The gall to cuss the incredible voice of Geddy Lee. I've been going down the progressive trail with early Genesis, Yes, and Floyd instead.
The issue with being a critic can often come down to what kind of listener you are; someone whose first impressions are often correct, or someone whose opinion shifts with time. I can say that 90% of the time, the main takeaway I have from an album is the same the first listen and months later. The details will change, but it's rare to go from not liking something to liking it, or liking it to loving it, etc. That's me, though.
@@cleftturnip7774 Yes, but it's a matter of degree. It's very rare for me to start really enjoying an album I didn't like at all on first listen. It's actually more likely an album I do like gets tired very quickly, so if anything, I think I wind up being more positive overall because I don't get to wait months to review things.
49:25 A great point. We live in an age of extremes, across the board: one can buy a car (stock, from a dealer) with 700 HP; UFC is on ESPN; some of the X-games and Olympic winter sports are bonkers compared to days of yore. And same with music. As kids, we thought "Eruption" was impossible and referred to players as "gods"; now, there are children who play it on TH-cam.
A very interesting discussion. Great points made with balance. I agree, we love what we love. My 2 cents worth ~ Prog lovers often also like metal, but usually without the screaming and growl vocals, but they also often like jazz fusion. Metal lovers often like Prog, but don’t usually lean into Jazz fusion. Jazz Fusion lovers often like Prog, but don’t usually lean into metal. All three love musicality and virtuosity . People who don’t like any of the 3 genres have no place in bagging any of them.
I believe Pete probably thought on how many HVSquares are apt to listen to prog bands and how many Prog Seaters are apt to listen to metal to justify his headline.
I don't think that would go like you seem to think it would. I know 5 of the 9 PS guys like metal. I have serious doubts more than half of HVS likes prog
@@georgelamie7001 got it. I watch both shows and I couldn't figure out who likes what (I can only guess). That's why I wondered if Pete had considered both groups as an example.
I'm mostly a prog guy now but grew up on metal. Things I dislike about metal are "Cookie Monster" vocals and non-creative lyrics. Some metal is just too complex now and sacrifices melody. It's all seems to be put together on a computer and the drumming is too perfect with no human sound to it.
I love it when "genres" combine and meld together. AcidJazzMetalPsychRockFunk. Long songs, extended instrumental jams, "interesting" lyrics. Miles Davis' "Agharta" is probably the benchmark of this. The so-called "purity" of any one style can get boring.
I like both, was into metal first then prog as I got older. I suppose prog fans feel they are smarter than metal heads. Metal heads being stereotyped as the guys who hung out in the smoking area of school (when they still had those) and fix cars. The film Return of the Secaucus Seven called prog "heavy metal goes to college." The 2 genres do intersect so you would think they would like both. In the 80s, prog was out and it was punk vs metal in the Boston area where I grew up.
"heavy metal goes to college." - BTW: Rock Goes to College & Jazz Goes to College were two BBC tv series that featured live performances of up-and-coming artists. Pretty good series (the rock one anyway) featuring: Be Bop Deluxe, George Thorogood, Cheap Trick, AC/DC, The Cars, Rory Gallagher, The Police, Bill Bruford, Joe Jackson, April Wine, The Motels, U2, Gillan, etc
Sounds to me that in part the definitions of music categories are more fluid than rigid, and that allows for lots of bleed over in fandom. I would also proffer that each genre can have many sub-genres (metal for sure) that it then allows for so many blocks for each fan to build their opinions with. I myself have a very personally rigid idea of what is prog. Some prog is metal and some metal is definitely not prog in my view. In my opinion metal that is also prog is interesting and worth listening to me but most non-prog metal does not interest me unless their is a specific element of the band (vocals, guitar work, lyrical theme) that may catch me. I also need to be caught by the music first. I may never give the lyrical content a chance if I feel the music is boring or uninteresting in some way. Then again, I can fall for a riff and hook filled mind numbingly stupid fun song too. I guess the overview is that we fans are truly variant as the music we like. Since their is enough of us we get groupings that looks like we have lots of similarity and yet there is also plenty of divergence which i s simply personal preference. For me I like it or I don't. Others opinions doesn't much matter except where it will get me to attempt a listen at something I didn't know about.
I enjoy your reviews, but I recognize that they are YOUR reviews. I’m not personally butthurt when you have an opinion about an album that is very different than mine. As you’ve said, we all can’t like everything. I do enjoy your point of view regardless because your experience and tastes are so varied that weather we agree or not on a particular album, I’m going to appreciate your point of view. That said, Nirvana and Pearl Jam are awesome.
I certainly don't think fans of one genre are by default more open-minded than fans of another. There are plenty of closed-minded metalheads, and closed-minded jazz fans too. I've been exposed to both. However, slightly playing devil's advocate here: I'm going to offer a possible explanation as to why metalheads might be more open to progressive music than typical prog fans. It's because metal has always had something to prove. Some metal fans definitely feel this way, and when i was a teen in the 1990s I felt this too (I really couldn't care less by now, but I understand why it's a thing). What I mean by this is -- look at what was, and often still is, the most mainstream conception of what metal is. Metal is loud and dumb. That's what a lot of people still think, despite Martin's good points about how metal almost incorporates progressive stuff by default nowadays. Metal wasn't seen as virtuoso music by most people except the fans. The fans, in large part, want to demonstrate that metal is not just a bunch of stupid kids banging on instruments the way their parents and "authority" type figures think it is. That is a reason they welcome progressive influences in metal music. I was talking about this with a younger non-metalhead friend the other day, but how many people who sucked in school and didn't get along well in the educational system still ended up reading books and studying history on their own time because of Iron maiden? I think it's a larger number than some realise. But metal presents this exterior of toughness and rigidity and masculine power above all else that on the surface would seem to repel intelelctual endeavours. It's those of us who really get into the music who see there is something beneath all that -- a beating heart that is romantic and emotional; poetic and redolent of fantastic dreams and otherworldly imaginings. And then there's the metal player's constant need, started in the 1980s, to push themselves harder. Play faster. Play more complex. Be wilder than the competition. I think that ties into it, too.
I gotta agree with many of the comments...the metal fans I've known over my 53 years are way more close minded than the prog fans. I'm all over the map musically... I either like it or I don't.
Metal Vs Prog, pop rock vs hard rock, classical vs jazz, edm vs blues, punk vs new wave. The list goes on and on. Musical life would be very boring, if we dont venture beyond our original music taste.
I'm going to wait a year until it goes on paperback. My mom said it's a good idea to wait until it's on paperback because it's cheaper and you won't damage the book. I think I got Roger Daltrey's book hardcovered because I wanted that book so badly because I'm a huge fan of The Who. Plus I wanted to get Greg Graffin and Bono's books but I'm still waiting til it goes on paperback. I have to be patient.
This is a bit of a weird one. I love prog, but everything else too, from The Damned to Sibelius, Deep Purple to Ornette Coleman. I always saw prog and fusion as a meetting place rather than a series of Chinese walls.
A big factor is whether you’re a lyrics person. I can’t turn off the verbal part of my brain and ignore inane lyrics. Many many metal bands put a lot of effort into good lyrics, but let’s face it, many don’t.
I initially thought this was making a genuine observation, and was ready to counter the idea metal fans are open minded about all other genres, which is patently, demonstrably ludicrous, as anyone commenting on FB group/pages can attest. Clearly now watching this it is clearly about the crossover of progmetal genres, and can concede many prog fans don't take well to too much metal or death metal etc being labelled as prog/progressive. Anyone in UK who buys Prog magazine will be aware of much resistance to the many bands who would feature on the free CD that used to accompany the magazine, as well as a mindeset often stuck in 1973/74 I would contest the first observations made re Hawkwind which has no real evidence to support it, so I would counter with my own anecdotal evidence growing up, where it was prog fans who were into Hawkwind, regardless of time signatures etc. Given the general hippiness, lefty politics, pot/LSD culture around the band, that was way more in tune with prog fan mindset of the day, and the spaciness tied in with the evolving electronic music scene. Hawkwind may have grown heavier for a period entering NWOBM times, but I'm not sure that's enough to advance the theory more metalheads are more open-minded to them than prog fans. Anyone who still catches them live would be unable to make that definitive judgement base on audience demographics So while disputing this assertion by Martin, there's no doubting his observation modern musicians have moved on significantly from the 'old' guys. Which is all the more reason for people to invest time in newer bands. Like movie adaptations of revered books, the old albums are always going to be there. There are so many great bands out there now that do deserve our attention and support
There is another aspect about the connection of prog & metal that rarely - if ever - gets talked about: Both genres are often made by, marketed towards and listened by people who would consider themselves "outsiders", "introverts" or "nerds". Almost everyone I know that listens to metal / prog and weird music in general felt at some point in their life a certain melancholy, loneliness, and were often called out for their dark humor and their tendency to daydream.
My theory is that prog and metal are the predecessors of "extreme genres" - styles of music that tried to bend and step over the boundaries over what is considered "listenable" and "reasonable". Many music nerds today are for example into bands like Death Grips, Swans, Lingua Ignota or the like. Probably bands that would not be considered "prog" or "metal", but certainly "extreme" and highly provocative.
I was the only one in my whole school that listened to "extreme" metal back in the early 80's e.g. Venom, Hellhammer (and then Celtic Frost), Voi Vod etc. But that didn't really bother me, it was just a shame I couldn't discuss it with anyone
The nerds thing I do understand. However, I didn't think that prog fans were outsiders. I do know that they're nerds though, which is totally cool. Metalheads being outsiders makes a lot of sense. I wouldn't say that I'm an introvert. I do however, do spend a lot more time listening to music than hanging out with my friends and making new friends, which I definitely need to do more of. But there's so much music I like/need to listen to that I total forgot about other people in my life, and I do need to get better at that.
@@takodabostwick8507 Hey Takoda :) In my opinion (and probably also in the opinion of modern day psychology) an introvert is not automatically a person that is "lonely" or doesn't have friends. Heck, I know a lot of people that are talkative and lots of fun in groups, but who would consider themselves "introverts". Being introverted mainly means that being by yourself is something that is relaxing for you.
So in that sense, people who are comfortable being "by themselves" also usually don't find it hard to listen to an album in its entirety, in the dark, with headphones, completely immersing themselves in an experience that others might consider "unpleasant" or "disturbing".
I find many metal fans, even punk fans, to be pretty sensitive people.
The same applies to Punk, Indie Rock, Psychedelic Rock etc. In my experience Prog is not at all music of outsiders. With metal and punk you need to be very specific which band at which time was music for outsiders because the musical landscape changed a lot, e.g. Metallica in 1991 wasn‘t music for outsiders.
Deep Purple, Uriah Heep, Black Sabbath, Sweet, Nazareth, AC/DC, Scorpions, Rainbow, Whitesnake, Thin Lizzy, Bachman Turner Overdrive, we back in the 70's Called it HardRock
As a Prog fanatic since the age of 12, the Prog Snob tendency that makes me laugh the most is their resolute hatred of anything under 5 minutes long, and insistance on calling any song under 5 minutes "pop" whether the song in question actually exhibits any pop elements or not. But I just shrug the Prog Snobs off. So, they're missing out on a lot of great music. Not my issue. Rock On!
I did read a review for Haken's Vector once saying that the album didn't have enough music on it... It was about 45 minutes long. I just laughed
Prog and pop CAN coexist and it's gonna take a lot of work to dismantle the narrative that they cannot. It's just the natural progression of one's craft - if one thing you're doing isn't working try something else and see how it goes. Though I do love a great deal of the works these prog bands made in their prime, every single prog band I've seen go pop, NAILED IT! No exceptions. Not to mention prog-gone-pop and shorter material also gives prog junkies something to play in front of not yet enlightened people.
As rock music fans in the seventies, my friends and I declared that we liked heavy and progressive music. Some bands had a clear distinction, but many did not. We rarely, if ever, used the term heavy metal.
I heard music like Yes, Renaissance and King Crimson because my older brother and father listened to them and I heard opera and classical music my whole life - and now i still listen to opera and classical but mostly metal - symphonic metal,death metal,folk metal, progressive metal, I think because only hearing good music and no pop or anything like that
People who listen to classical music and metal like to enjoy the complex structures and arrangements certain types of metal provides them
For me talent in the lead vocals portion of a song is important.. the growels of early Opeth and Dream Theater... I think the masses agree with me as both bands grew up and realized this wasnt going to sell albums.
Pete and Martin. I don’t know if you guys have ever seen The Musical Box, a Genesis tribute band. Well I saw them last night in Norwalk, Connecticut, they preformed The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. It was a mind blowing show. Absolutely incredible. You guys must see this outfit if they play near you.
The Musical Box is really, really talented. Their reproduction of the individual tours was/is phenomenal. The Foxtrot and Selling England tours were great too.
Pete, all I have to say about your justified rant is: You review albums when you feel like it. I was glad to to see you bring back the "what you've been listening to" video recently, and I don't know, who among us has time to check out all the new releases In The Exact Moment anyway? I watch this channel because I like the personalities involved and I want to learn about new music. That first thing does count for a lot. I am curious about what you think of various albums, but you can tell me today, next week, or next year -- doesn't matter at all really.
Loved the discussion, guys! Thanks for fielding my question. 😊
I was a teenager during the 1970's. The cool crowd listened to what was called "hard rock." This included everything from Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, the Stones, Beatles etc. Nerds listened to pop music on AM radio. Music wasn't divided into genres then. Hard rock was basically for kids who experimented with drugs to some extent. The perfectly well adjusted kids without grievance usually weren't attracted to hard music. Later generations categorized music. Most of the people on these music platforms did not experience our music first hand. Therefore, they will never really get it. Just like I will never really get big band music. It doesn't mean later generations can't enjoy music from any age. It just makes me laugh when they attempt to break down its origins. You just had to have been there, in my opinion to really get it. You need to have experienced the culture and time it was produced to call it your music.
The more specific genre is, fans tend to be more elitist since they think it's "their" music that other people don't get it.
Like one commenter below, I was under the impression (based on the title) that this video was going to cover the two highlighted 'camps' vis-à-vis musical appreciation on the whole. Now knowing that this isn't the case, I'll proceed accordingly. I won't get into the 'which 'group' is more receptive to the other' business; instead, I'll just talk about my own personal feelings on the matter.
Of the two genres / sub-genres in question, I'm undoubtedly a bigger fan of progressive rock. Certainly, getting into it changed my entire world, musically speaking; Broadened my horizons immeasurably. While I can see the parallels between progressive rock and metal, I think it all comes down to style and personal taste; Enjoying the latter works best for me when listening to it in small / fair doses. There's something about its timbre that has not agreed with me whenever I've attempted to consume copious amounts of the stuff; I would find myself losing interest, as it all started to come off as a bit monotonous, and lacking in varied dynamics (relatively speaking.) I can only get so much out of loud, heavy, distorted guitar riffs (whether simple or intricate) being the focal point for so long - good for a time, but afterwards, I need something more.
Metalheads reading this will probably be incensed by these comments, but keep in mind, this is just my personal response / taste. With all that said, there are about a dozen (terrible guesstimate) metal bands of whom I consider myself a fan. Outside of that, it's bits and pieces here and there. I couldn't ever say that I outright dislike metal.
EDIT: When it comes to listening habits, there are major differences between those who listen for a living (whether part-time or full-time), and those who don't. Captain Obvious, but many from both groups constantly intermingle on here, and with this, certain expectations arise from both sides. An entire video could have been devoted to this topic; would've been a very interesting one. I can't immediately recall if it has already been done.
I think age and when you came in is very important. I am a fan of both metal and prog. But I am a little younger than older prog fans I come across on the internet. They started with ‘classic’ rock/hard rock and prog in the 1960s and 1970s. I started with metal and alternative rock in the 80s and 90s as a kid and then went back to explore prog. I think that makes a big difference.
I notice older music fans from the 60s and 70s are more hostile and sceptical to the musical movements that come after the mid 70s: punk, new wave, Eighties metal, grunge, alternative/indie. You see that pattern emerge, and opinions remaining even now.
So there’s more open mindedness in looking back than in looking forward and what was a new movement at the time.
@@jimmycampbell78 Our paths seem similar. I grew up in the '80s and '90s (mostly the latter), listened to both alternative and metal artists, then in 2000, I got into progressive rock. Agree with your comments on the generational thing; I see everything you mentioned all too often (online, and off.)
I totally understand the snobby argument of both prog and metal camps, but these two camps are so informative and care so much for the music - it’s mainly been a great learning experience for me and I’m thankful to them.
I witnessed the Mortal Remains event at the V&A Museum and found it quite moving. It's a must experience for all Floyd fans. It is such a frustrating mess that two intelligent articulate men can no longer communicate with each other on a level that matters.
I became a progressive rock fan as a kid due to my dad's music taste. I took to Yes and never looked back but I love glam rock, hard rock and metal. I don't really like one genre more than the other because I just like music and sometimes I want to hear the complicated or more intricate music vs the aggressive sound.
I love fusion, funk and soul jazz as well as Prog Rock. I want to believe that I’ll accept everything from PFM to Alphonse Mouzon. Thanks Pete and Martin. Great debate and discussion.
"The Lemmy Factor"! But hey, for some reason a percentage of metal fans seem to need to define their manhood by how heavy and/or threatening their music is. Never understood it.
I think rap and heavy metal stimulate release of the hormone testosterone which produces a buzz in large quantities.
In order of releases, here’s a list of definites that fused Prog-Metal:
-King Crimson
-Jethro Tull
-Gentle Giant
-Kansas
-Rush
Honorable mentions:
-Camel
-Hawkwind
-Soft Machine
-Mahavishnu Orchestra
Hmmm.... would be interesting to do a poll about if prog fans enjoy other genres vs metal fans, and get some sort of real time data, because as a fan who loves both, I come across waaaay more metal fans who are more close minded and less apt to venture beyond their given taste (even down to the type of metal genre). I don't agree with the headline/original question, my experience tells the opposite.
And see, I know WAY more metal fans who will listen to and like prog and plenty prog fans who won't sniff anything that's metal. I think it goes both ways...but, there's no way to quantify it, but it made for a fun conversation.
@@seaoftranquilityprog Yeah most of the comments (maybe all) including mine are anecdotal. Everyone knows of specific examples to 'prove' either argument
@@seaoftranquilityprog perhaps it evens out?
@@wolf1977 why i proposed doing a poll
I dipped my toes into both. In the past 5 years alone I've went from Eurovision junkie to power metal enjoyer to progger. So basically I went from 3 minute songs maximum to 6 minute songs minimum. A shift I never saw coming
A big thank you to Pete for continuing to champion Opeth. I'm one of those "never death metal" guys that was eventually won over. They are just too damn great at what they do to ignore, even with the death growls of the earlier albums. I'm probably not their typical fan. I try not to get too hung up on labels.
Not sure either group has the lock on open-mindedness, or close-mindedness for that matter. But I've seen examples of both extremes from fans of both genres.
After Pink Floyd blew up that score board at Ivor Wayne stadium in 1975 there was a ban on concerts there until Rush played there in the early 2000’s.
Gotta say i have a metalhead friend and he is pretty close minded when it comes to other genres than what he listens to. Imagine being a metalhead who disses Rainbow, Black Sabbath and Deep Purple. The classics! And I try to get him into prog but it's so hard to get him to appreciate anything. Even some more complex metal not necessarily prog is hard for him to get into. He just sticks to the basic straight in your face stuff. Such a shame since there is very much to enjoy out there both in prog and metal, and even the stoner area! I'll keep showing him stuff till it clicks, I believe everyone can enjoy these genres.
Same here. I find it ti be the contrary depending on the age of the person, boomers seem to be more closed minded if they are Prog fans, I’m a Gen’xer and a Prog head, but I am very open minded to music, not much of a metal fan though.
@@erorufurakku6378 very true, the quote still reminds me, but I try not to put the same band over and over on him, just find new stuff and have him listen to it whenever, if he likes it it's fine, not like he didn't like any prog, he quite enjoys Porcupine Tree. Cheers!
Or as Luis Naser (ITPS) says, you like what you like and the rest can you know what.
There are two types of metal fans ones who want the music who drives their lack of concentration and the others who listen to complex structures which are derived from classical music
I'm not a Prog guy myself but I'll stick up for the fans of Prog Rock. I can totally see why they may be put off by some of the staples of the Metal genre. When so much of Metal is always raging at an 11, it can become obnoxious and monotonous for some. I used to be a huge Hard Rock/Metal fan and now I listen to the kind of stuff barely discussed on this channel (Post-Punk/Alt Rock/Indie). Watching this channel is nostalgic fun for me but yeah, I understand where some Prog Rock fans are coming from with their shunning of the heavier stuff.
One of the interesting crossover events was Steven Wilson producing Opeth. With Blackwater Park Opeth really started to lean into prog, while Porcupine Tree started to do the metal riffs with In Absentia. One band considered mostly metal, the other the poster child for modern prog, but both of them cooperating brought them a lot closer together sonically. And I think for many fans those bands were a crossover into the other genre.
Respect for both your rants guys. I totally get the time constraints and you won't hear from me "where is your review" or to change your mind. And as to the question "that ruins your day Martin", I will NEVER ask you that - I will just read your work!!
I remember in junior high(late summer 83 to spring 85),metal fans were in to metal and that was it.They never had time for Duran Duran,Prince,Hall and Oates or other non metal acts that were popular at the time.
We never used the word "prog" back than because we didn't even know that word.I don't recall any one ever talking about Yes,ELP,Jethro Tull,King Crimson,Marillion etc.
Of course,at the time,the only prog act that was popular were Yes,but none of my friends were in to them.Genesis of course were still doing well,but I doubt any of my classmates could name one of their songs from the first six albums.
And of course Rush were still putting out albums and touring regularly.
speaking of Hawkwind. Simon (Reynolds) says that the advance cassette of My Bloody Valentine's Isn't Anything sounded better than the LP and CD releases. Hawkwind are my example of that. I had a cassette of Hall Of The Mountain Grill and the eq/mix of The Psychedelic Warlords (Disappear In Smoke) sounded fantastic! (an inspiration for World Of Twist's Sons Of The Stage?). but when I later bought the vinyl I was surprised to find the same track sounded muted/duller. maybe somewhere there is a vinyl pressing that matches the clarity and brightness/energy of the cassette - a project for future freetime (and when the wantslist runs low).
I have to say that I LOVE prog, but I like metal too. To me, it’s not so much about the classification, it’s about the quality of the music. I don’t stick w/ a genre.
It's the exact opposite from my 5 decades of being a prog fan. Metal fans have always been way more myopic, in my observation.
Agreed.
Agreed. But Prog fans also have a tendency to be condescending and pretentious. So it really goes both ways.
Metal fans have childish tastes. That's why Martin is moving past it.
And if you are (like me) a fan of both....? Do I have the worst attributes of both fanbases 🤣
@@fattymcfatso1083 "Prog fans also have a tendency to be condescending and pretentious."
Best way to listen to music I'd by yourself! Most people when they say it sucks or it's just showmanship in most cases don't own what your playing and can't be rational , so in these cases what u do is crank it to shake the rib cage level! 😊
Both groups can be close minded at times, not everyone though, we're all different. I was born in the 70's, grew up in the 80's, so I definitely love the hard rock/metal genres the best BUT I really enjoy prog too, I always liked a lot of Rush's stuff but I also liked a lot more prog than I thought I did. Supertramp, Yes, Styx, King Crimson etc. all had songs I liked, watching your channel and a few others, it really opened my mind up to a lot of stuff I wouldn't have been caught dead listenng too, years ago. Prog bands like Gentle Giant, I like some of it, don't like some of it, I like Genesis but never really got into the Peter Gabriel stuff but there are songs I like now. I like what I like I guess but I'm not as close minded as I once was, even newer metal or new stuff from older bands, I wouldn't really give it much of a chance, now I 'll listen to more modern albums, I have found a lot of cool bands, looking at new and vintage bands I never used to care for, or even knew about. Sorry for the long winded comment. lol Cheers guys.
No reservations on either. I like what I like. The elements of musicality that might be more noticeable in prog bleeds over into metal and vice-versa.
Simply put 'One man's noise is another man's symphony '
My Quote .
One mans beast is another man's beauty
.... trash / gold etc.
I (65 yo) am a prog fan who loves metal very much and
my son (20 yo) is a metal and punk fan who loves prog very much...
Our general taste combined goes from the 1950s till today.
I would love to meet your son! He and I would make great buddies! I love all of that stuff. I also love modern metal as bands. The progressive metal bands now are awesome, but I also love symphonic metal bands like Epica, Nightwish, Within Temptation, Leaves' Eyes and Delain. And I never got the punk vs metal vs prog thing! That's just bull crap to me. Why can't you like all the other stuff?
lol...I've never heard anyone describe metal fans as "open-minded,' but I guess compared to prog fans they are.
I'm with you. I don't find either camp to be particularly open minded. But I would probably give the edge to metalheads.
I think there might possibly be a snobbery factor at play in prog - just as there is jazz snobbery (ie): the emphasis on virtuosity, sophistication, etc.
@@garyh.238 You find it in metal too. Coincidentally, "prog metal". Or whatever name you might have for it. How many times have you heard a Rush fan tell you that "smart people" listen to them?
@@independenceltd. Good point! Yes it exists in every genre I suppose.
I was a teenager in the 80's and my experience then was the opposite to what the title of this video suggests. My friends who were getting into Slayer, Megadeth, etc. were rejecting the 70's prog bands and ignoring what bands like Rush and Yes were evolving into. Maybe now that we are in our 50's we former metal heads are more accepting of prog because of acts like Dream Theater, Porcupine Tree, et al, but this has not been the case from the start, at least from what I remember.
Getting into music in the late 70’s early 80’s in the UK - at the time of NWOBHM - rock fans tended to like a range of music that could be divided into subgenres like hard rock, folk rock, prog rock and heavy metal. At gigs and in rock pubs you’d see denim jackets that invariably featured diverse patches and badges across the previously mentioned sub-genres - which tends to suggest that metal/prog are not mutually exclusive - their fans were often the same people.
Back then though, in the UK, music was very, very tribal. You wouldn’t see rock fans having patches or badges featuring punk bands for example, and punks typically wouldn’t go to see metal bands either as there was a completely different ethos. That doesn’t mean to say heavy rockers didn’t like other music, just that there was a clear divide between tribes, crossed by very few bands.
I have a denim jacket and I have a ton of patches on my jacket. Both punk and metal, alongside classic rock. I've got The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, The Who, The Kinks, Led Zeppelin, Green Day, All Time Low, Sum 41, Metallica, Megadeth, Slayer, Black Sabbath, Misfits, Bad Religion, A7X, Cannibal Corpse, Iron Maiden, The Cure, Queen, ACDC, Kiss, NOFX, Rancid, Queensryche, Pink Floyd and many more. Hopefully by today or tomorrow, I will get a Motorhead and Judas Priest patch to add to my jacket. These 2 are especially required according to me to say that I'm a metalhead. Stupid, I know, but that's I think that has been told by metal fans. I was very happy to have a Kinks patch because they are just so awesome and definitely an underrated band. I love them more The Rolling Stones and Led Zeppelin. I want to get some progressive patches, but I want to have more punk and metal patches, so I'm not sure if I'm going to get them. I looked for a patch for The Moody Blues, but the patches look terrible, so I'm going to get another Moody Blues t shirt instead. Oh well. Some people gave me compliments on my jacket and thought that it looked cool and awesome. A lot of people wear their band jackets whenever they go to shows. I said that whenever I go to shows, I would wear my band jacket just like everyone else. I'm gonna have to give compliments to other people wearing band jackets and maybe start a conversation about the jacket, alongside with the show.
I've been told I'm an odd duck for liking both prog-rock and metal. Now, the caveat to that is I don't like harsh vocals. There are exceptions to that. The occasional growl, scream, or grunt in a word, or a few vocal lines I can deal with, but an entire song or album is too much for me to handle. Raspy vocals are alright too, but vocal quality is always a critical factor for me liking any music within my genre's. I consider myself mainly a progger, but I do step out every so often.
I feel bad. I’m an extreme fan and I was one of those people who was urging Pete to review this album. To my defense I was clueless that Rise was released before the album was. All I know was that several of my channels that I followed were raving about the Nuno solo in Rise and I mistakenly thought the album had been released already. SMH sorry about that Pete.
Metal came first for me. I loved everything heavy and like you guys said, metal fans dig into their bands and want to I know what makes them play the music they do. That is how I discovered bands being discussed as influences like Yes, Pink Floyd, Genesis, Camel, Kansas and ELP being spoken of so highly by bands that I loved I knew I had to give those guys a shot. Prog really became my go to. On top of that, progressive metal has really pushed the envelop and made me appreciate the musicianship and level of creativity all the more. This was a great episode. My only point of disagreement would be when I take in new music. Sometimes it may not gel with me on the 1st, 2nd, heck even 10th listen in cases but something finally clicks and really opens my ears to a level of appreciation. I do like the Extreme album as discussed and feel the same way. It has some great, great moments but overall it is just a good listen.
My dad and i have this kind of conversation all the time regarding prog fans, we both feel that they're not open minded because most of them tend to stay in their comfort zone and aren't willing to seek out new bands to listen to. They prefer to stay in the late 60s to mid 70s realm without changing, metal fans as open minded is an interesting way to describe them because while they do at times tend to stay in their own realm, they are at least always willing to give things a chance.I went to see Al Di Meola back in 2017 and there was a lot of metal fans in the audience which i thought was very unusual but interesting to see especially as he is more in line with the jazz style of music, he's a guitarist who does appeal to a lot of metal fans. It is a very interesting that's asked and one that will have a lot of different views.
I fit the mold quite tightly of only listening to 60s pop and 70s prog for the most part. Occasionally outside of that, I'll listen to Type O Negative or old death metal.
I am a prog fan and i prefer 60s/70s bands purely because i think they were better musically. but in saying that i'm always trying to find new bands and give them a chance. any suggestions always welcome.
I was in grade school during the 70s and in HS in the early 80s and an undergrad during the late 80s, so my take is a little skewed. I may have been a bit too young to really appreciate a lot of the classic prog groups but was really into hard rock and metal in the 80s, a decade known for metal. I am more of a hard rock/metal fan, but one of the first bands I was really a huge fan of was Rush. I like a lot of prog rock, but I am pretty selective of it. I can't stand Dream Theater, Peter Gabriel, or Genesis with Peter Gabriel, nor have I been much of a fan of Pink Floyd, though when I like a Floyd song, I really like it. There are also some Rush albums that I don't really care for, mainly the material after Signals until Vapor Trails (though the jury is still out on Counterparts and Test for Echo for me). Of course, there is a lot of metal I don't care for, such as Death Metal (sorry, but the vocals grate on me). But me age is showing through. Overall, I think prog rock fans are more snobbish than metal fans. Early metal fans tend to be more open minded than more recent metal fans. That's been my experience though. I think what biased me was to that opinion was my undergrad days. Guys that listened to bands like Yes and King Crimson thought their music was superior to anyone else's and looked down on metal heads. For me, I'll give it a group or an album a listen before jumping to a conclusion based solely on genre.
To your point of Iron Maiden and Dream Theater, Maiden is my favorite band, and I would put DT as my 4th, and I’m mostly a metal/rock guy but I enjoy prog as well. (Rush breaks my top 10 too) and I adore all of Maidens modern era as well which often has a prog label put on it and Seventh Son of a Seventh Son is one of my favorite albums by them which is certainly on the proggy side.
I think that a good few hard rock and metal fans had time for Marillion, at least during their years with Fish. Like Iron Maiden, they had cracking album covers at the time, especially for the first two albums. Songs like Heart of Lothian had an energetic heavy feel even if hits like Lavender were a grab for commercial success. They were a lot less poppy than early 80s Genesis, anyway.
I forgot to mention that Marillion were given a lot of coverage in magazines like Kerrang, which I think gave them an entryway into acceptance among many who (like me) might have listened mostly to heavier bands.
Popoff and Pardo are at it again with a bonus rant that was worth the wait. To respond to the final call by Pete, personally, it is often the vocals of the certain 'genres' and bands that distracts from the enjoyment of listening. Keep trying to get past that issue and listen to albums reviewed and discussed on SoT episodes but it often remains an issue. Perhaps just my age and long history of listening to more harmonic/melodic vocal stylings. But, never would have found Opeth's Damnation and later albums if not for SoT and continuing to try. As for the timing of reviews and listener's/viewers expectations, an expectation gap is not surprising and remain amazed at the amount of product reviewed on SoT. Never seem to catch up. Special thanks to Martin for sharing his Megadeth listening story near the end as it helped end with a great laugh. Thanks once again, gents, for your weekly shows. There ya go!
Yes "vocal stylings" can be an issue😎
Flat death metal vocals are always a deal breaker... There has to be some semblance of vocal range in order for me to enjoy music. Similarly, I dislike most rap music due to the lack of vocal melody.
Regarding Eloy / metal (I'm just listening to the '79 album now after watching ITPS) -- I've always considered Eloy almost a proto power metal band, it seems like most of the German PM bands come from a very similar mold and the overall bombastic & epic narrative tone of their music is very similar, but I've never heard anybody else make that connection before. I've always wondered if any of the European Power metal bands especially in Germany have cited Eloy as a major influence.
Jazz people tend to be the most closed minded people IMHO. It has to be pure jazz or it's actually invalid music.
Some complain there's not enough horns or brass section. Dated someone like that. Sorry she had to go.
Can't agree, I love Jazz but I also love fusion, prog, world music, electronic, ambient, avant-garde, classical, even what I would call some experimental pop artists like Bjork, Kate Bush, Tori Amos, Everything Everything, Roxy Music, David Bowie the list goes on.
A lot of older prog rock fans are stuck in the past, they've forgotten the true meaning of progressive.
I would tend to agree (also as applied to fans of classical) but that's strictly speaking in terms of personal experience which obviously represents a VERY small sub-group of the much larger total fan base. These comments are all very much based on anecdotal 'evidence'
I did some jazz school in the 80s, and your statement is deadly accurate in my experience
Good point. In fact it even occurs within jazz families. The Marsalis family for instance. Back in the mid-80's, it seems that jazz purist / trumpeter Wynton Marsalis almost disowned his brother, jazz saxophonist Branford Marsalis, for having sold out by lending his talents to Sting's project.
Sorry for over-commenting, but... a lot of the great prog players/composers talk about very diverse inspirations in music while growing up. That's how I was, and still am at age 62. That inspirational diversity doesn't seem to be there when you talk to more exclusively metal heads. I love metal, but I can't even imagine being encapsulated in it.
From my experience it's metalheads that are usually a lot more close minded and detest everything that's not HEAVY enough, god forbid. And i'm of course saying that as a generalization, being a metalhead myself and also loving pop, rap, electronic, prog, jazz, ect...
So it is possible bu there is that obsession with heaviness and extrimity that people who only listen to metal need to let go off a little bit so they can enjoy other stuff.
There is definitely a difference - not so sure what it is I am really a metal fan and have been at many metal gigs. I recently went to a Riverside gig - prog band really, though they have some bits that are towards metal. The people there were clearly a different type of crowd to what is usually at metal gigs.
I think the thing is the propensity for the prog audience to essentially stand there almost judging whether what they are getting is any good. Not in a nasty way, just somewhat more stand offish in general.
Mariusz Duda was brilliant at dealing with that and moving the people there into a different space. Talking to us and encouraging participation. And he got it - and I would suspect he always does. He likes the joke of talking about part of a song and then saying 'we;ll get there in ,um, about 12minutes' (always 12 minutes)
I'm just a music lover that hates snobbery. And, unfortunately, almost every genre has them!
I will never again take another album review written by Martin Popoff seriously. Near the end of this video he admits that he doesn't listen to some albums before reviewing them. He even says that when it's a band he "grew up with" he'll just skip around and play only 40 seconds of each song before writing a review. What a hack! He basically admits, as if it's no big deal, that he is the worst possible kind of reviewer - one that can't even be bothered to listen to the music he reviews. Think about it. When he's declaring an album to be great, like when he has declared recent Uriah Heep albums to be as good or better than the albums of their popular 70s heydey, has he even listened to any of it, or maybe just 40 minutes of each song? He's enough of a big name reviewer that people might buy or not buy albums based on his opinions. To find out he may not have even listened to whatever albums he is praising or criticizing makes his reviews absolutely worthless....There is a story that has been told by John Lees of Barclay James Harvest about a reviewer who gave a negative review to one of their albums. Lees later met this reviewer, who admitted that they had not actually listened to the album, but just looked at the cover art and read some song titles and lyrics. Does anyone think that's a fair review? I used to write CD reviews myself and kept t a self-made rule that I would listen to a (full) album a minimum of 4 times before reviewing, and even more if it was something that really deserved more attention. The four times rule, I felt, was a good way to deal with the fact that in prog especially, some albums would be "growers" and could not be judged in only one listen. I wonder how many Popoff reviews have portrayed an album unfairly because it was not given anything more than a cursory skipping through. I'm surprised that other SOT watchers have not commented on Popoff's flippant attitude towards reviewing,...I will no longer waste my time on any of this guy's reviews or books. SOT is usually a go to music show for me, but now in any episode with Popoff I will have to take the opinions on albums with a grain of salt, or maybe the whole shaker.
I love music. Couldn't give a damn what label people put on it.
Yes,but you would have preferences?
So yer a "I love ALL music" type person . . . Can't even talk to yer type, honestly.
@@fattymcfatso1083exactly! And furthermore nobody has the time to listen to everything. You gotta pick your preferences.
@@wernermoritz882 exactly
I find it to be the contrary with the people I know, the metal fans I know are far more close minded than myself that is not a metal fan, but a Prog fan, however, I also like many genres of music including punk, post punk, pop, funk, R&B, jazz, classical etc..My metal friends are not that open minded.
i know lots of metal fans who are so closeminded they won't go beyond the 80's metal scene.
@mickmcnabb6147 I started out more as a metal head but then branched out now I have so many genres I enjoy. I wish I was more picky my wallet would like that too. Lol
I find this to be both shocking and not shocking at the same time. I do love punk and post punk as well as prog, but I do love my metal as well. Here's the question. Do you listen to only prog rock, but not prog metal? For example, Queensryche, Dream Theater, Opeth, Mastodon, Death, and Cynic. I saw Queensryche twice and they were awesome. I would not call post punk progressive punk personally. I would say that post punk is more artsy than prog, but that's just me. Nothing wrong with being artsy at all. Some of these rockers might consider themselves to be weird, and I'm an advocate for that. They're trying to make their music look more like art. Art is what you make of it. It's a way of forming your expressions. Art is very subjective. Some of them take more very seriously than others and get critical acclaim from critics. I'm not against rockers playing music for fun. Some music talks about partying, love, sex, drinking, drugs, and rocking out and having a fun time. Others might be very moody, dark, and depressive, maybe some angst. Who knows. But music is one way to express yourself, no matter if you are happy, sad, or angry.
@@takodabostwick8507 I like some Prog metal bands like Fates Warning, Death and Gojira, plus more, never liked Queenryche or Dream Theater, I think Dream Theater is a band of great musicians, but the music is cold and soulless, it’d just not my cup of tea.
@@sspbrazil very understandable. Bands like Opeth and Dream Theater have an acquired taste and if you like it, you like it and if you don't you don't tend to like it as much. I consider Opeth and Dream Theater a requirement to love the band, but that's just me. Along with Queensryche as well, but again, that's just me personally.
I think you should have brought Led Zeppelin to the conversation as well. They are neither a progressive rock band nor a metal band. But they have many songs that come in those categories. Firstly, metal: they have created some of the most metal ahead songs in their time that will still be undeniably called metal today. Communication Breakdown was the most metal sounding song till 69 and was the primary inspiration for the definitive metal song Paranoid, Immigrant Song was the most metal song till then, you have Over The Hills and Song Remains The Same which are basically folk metal. In My Time Of Dying, which is half blues rock and half heavy metal. For prog, they have Stairway To Heaven, which is so many things like folk, hard rock, metal, progressive rock epic; No Quarter, Rain Song; Kashmir is the heaviest progressive rock song ever made probably and it is not even metal, epic of epics and progressive beyond progressive; In The Light, Ten Years Gone. Then the definitive, archetypal progressive metal song: Achilles Last Stand, 12 years before Dream Theatre came. These songs have influenced so many of the contemporary and future bands to carve their own paths, especially in metal and progressive metal. Achilles Last Stand especially was Rush on steroids, the metal turned up along with the prog of Rush. These songs and the band is universally beloved, especially by metal bands and prog bands.
Rush, Maiden, Rainbow, even Sabbath to some extent, at certain times of their careers at least, had/have both proggy and metal elements.
Great show. When I saw the title I was hey, that's not my experience with music fans, but the video explained it better.
Pink Floyd was a prog band. Their early days had a lot of musique concrete, avant-garde, experimentation in sound and time signatures, long compositions (Atom Heart Mother & Echoes.) All of that fits into progressive rock. After DSotM they became less experimental and more organized with less improvisation.
I always saw the differences as electric guitar oriented. Electric guitar playing is very important for metal fans and prog fans don't really mind what instrument is the lead one. I' listen to both, I'm more of a prog fan, but I do like to know what the vocalist is singing so the growling vocal style of death or black metal would be a turn off for me.
This topic would be better discussed with the guys from " In The Prog Seat " show. Every metal fan I interact with(save one) hate prog, and don't care for prog metal that much either(some like Rush, some don't). I have one close friend who's a metal fan who absolutely adores Jethro Tull, though(respects Martin Barre).
Why do we have to put labels on everything.Back in the day we might pick up a new Zeppelin,Heep,ELP and Neil Young and Cat Stevens it was just rock.Didn't need to put labels on anything it was rock
IMHO, Pink Floyd could almost be classified as a blues band. Gilmore style is definitely blues based, as I have heard him say in some interviews. Comfortably Numb is blues based, as is Money and Time.
That’s a big stretch. All rock is blues based so their would be some blues influence. But 90 percent of what they do is as far away from blues as it gets . So have to disagree Floyd could never be considered a blues band or even In he blues genre.
Great show guys….always look forward to Friday with Pete and Martin!
Although I must admit I’m kind of surprised that neither Tull or Zeppelin were part of the conversation.
I've found the opposite in my experience when it comes to metal fans. I pretty much just listen to progressive metal from ~2010 onwards. However, modern prog can kind of almost mean anything these days from jazz/fusion all the way to the heaviest of death metal, or even mix the two in a cohesive piece together. I personally really love sharing music with people, and one of the things I have been doing the past few years on occasion, is finding twitch streams where they react to songs that you can request, or musicians that can improv things like drums/guitar with requests. Being someone who listens to a lot of modern prog, I still try and make sure I don't send the most absurd things to people but it's still not generally easy. I have pretty consistently found so many people where they love metal music, and the moment I request some prog song it's usually the same few responses. I either get people who say things like "wow I hate prog, it's all about shoving as many notes as possible into a song" or "I wish this song wasn't 6-8 minutes long, it's boring" which isn't the case for a lot of the things I listen to, and people seem to have a lot of impatience when it comes to music for some reason. All people aren't like this obviously, but some of these people who are, really refuse to enjoy anything that isn't in their own circle. Metal is already niche by comparison to all the other genres, and the gatekeeping has gotten unbelievably annoying over the past decade + on the internet. Myself for instance, I don't particularly like power metal for my own reasons like it feels a bit cheesy and song structures are generally the same across many bands, but with that being said, I don't hate power metal by any means. People getting into heavier genres of music is something I generally want because it's what I additionally partake in. But for some reason people REALLY hate prog. Prog isn't JUST dream theater, tool, opeth/ gojira and others about as popular as they are, and people generally won't put in the effort/work unfortunately needed to really dive into specific genres. The most opposite of my personal taste would be something like pop/rap music, but I don't exclude that from my musical lexicon because I don't want to be ignorant to any genre, as I respect music more than that in it's entirety. Lastly, if I spent as much time into those genres as I have with progressive metal, I would definitely have found things that personally appeal to me, it's just significantly less likely due to what I value in music like instrumentation/ arrangements/ etc. I like to be surprised when re-listening to songs simply by focusing on another aspect of the music regardless of the instrument. Metal with saxophone, violin, cello, all that shit is great and we need more of it.
I completely understand about the reviews. Not everyone can get advance copies of new releases to get that review out early. Also, everyone has different tastes and looks for different things out of the music they listen to. It's great to like what you like, and you should not go around demanding validation for your tastes from album reviews that people post online or in magazines or such.
JC Rock and Metal Reviews did a poll about 2 weeks ago and asked the community poll which band he should do the review on first. Of the five up there, my top 3 were A7X, Rancid and Foo Fighters. I wasn't so sure what to choose because I love all the bands. He commented and said he will review all the bands, whichever came first. So much music comes out on the same day that it can be difficult to do 3-5 videos in one day reviewing all the albums. He ended up doing the reviews and I believe that he liked all of them. I was happy to hear that and I loved all of these albums. I thought that they were awesome. 2023 has given us a ton of awesome music so far.
Personally Im A Lover of MUSIC. Genre is Not A factor. Thier is only 2 kinds of Music 1- the kind you like 2 - the kind you dont like..
Same!
Much of this depends on one’s “formative musical years” (roughly 10 to 20, in my experience). I hit age 10 in 1984, so my basic senses of “prog” and “metal,” while they have expanded, are still much tamer and more 1970s-inflected than those of my younger brother, who hit 10 in 1992. Just 8 years apart, but the difference in our case is massive. Some of what I hear as noise, he hears as music. (Technology also plays a big role.) I’m broadening my horizons, as is he, but our foundations are not quite the same.
In my experience it’s the metal fans who are narrow minded
On a lot of Facebook groups dedicated to prog, other genres of music appeared which is something I never see on groups dedicated to metal.
An idea for a Friday Morning Funhouse - what about a discussion of why some hugely popular 70s and 80s UK and European bands - say Slade, for example, were almost unknown in America at the time, and vice versa - a ginormous American band like Journey, which was almost unheard of - and never toured - in the UK, Europe and Australia?
Great conversation!
I can’t believe Tool wasn’t mentioned at all. Fits this topic perfectly.
I've been surprised that some prog fans don't like Rush not just because of Geddy's voice but because they're not English.
So now, we're hating on Canadians, huh? Nah, I'm just messing with you. But seriously, that's why? That's total bs! The Canadians I do hate are the Montreal Canadiens and Tronto Maple Leafs because they have the 2 most Stanley Cups of all time, Montreal with 24 and Tronto with 13.
Actually it was an extension of any prog band that wasn't English, didn't like Kansas either.
Glad you mention A7X, Pete. That new album is mind blowing, lots of things happening there, but so rewarding. Those guys might lose a lot of fans but at least they're not afraid of trying new things. It's awesome. btw, My fav Yes album is Relayer, and I've been listening to it for 40+ ... years :-) , and yet A7X blows my brains out! Meaning you can perfectly be a fan of both (and more).
Great show!
Cheers.
I like different types of music because I have different moods I get in and out of. I love the crunchy guitars and bottom end of metal. I don't like metal that is endlessly fast and repetitive. I love how Prog can change In a song like Band on the run, but when it goes to far like the first track on Gentle Giants Octopus I lose interest.
I don't care for free jazz yet jazz/rock fusion is my favorite genre, so I do need my music to be tied to a recognizable melody (at least most of the time)...Variety in music is important (at least to me), and pacing. To me early Genesis is almost a how-to when it comes to perfectly pacing their music (especially on the longer tracks). Many shredders (not all) don't seem to value this quality in music, it's straight-up full-on attack all the time with no opportunity to rest the ears & take a breath. Again not all but many...Quoting Miles: "It's not the notes you play, it's the notes you don't play"
@wolf1977 what your saying about shredding is how I feel too. Even if a Guitar player isn't thought of as Heavy Metal. The blues player Christone has got the same problem for me that Zakke Wylde has got. Way too much even though it's all very talented. After 30 seconds I'm thinking alright already save some for the next song.
Miles Davis is correct. Freddie King is a great example. He can go 6 or 7 seconds or more without playing during a solo and then play the simplest lick or a note, and I'm thinking damn this guy was amazing. Because the note he played was correct for the blues chord progression, but he didn't play anything to get there.
@@1jammyjerry1 My personal 'poster child' is Yngwie. Props to someone like Paul Gilbert whose music has evolved (Marty Friedman too)...I used to absolutely love Cacophony & Racer X in my younger days, those chops just impressed the you-know-what out of me. Now there are probably very few players who can play like that but it's like with antiques - simply being rare/one of a kind doesn't make a piece necessarily valuable. There are other factors that play into it - I think many 'guitar slingers' ignore those other factors in favor of chops
Most fanbases tend to develop a certain form of elitism or another, resulting in being rather critical to radically dismissive when it comes to a lot of musical styles (they don't know that well) , of course each individual can always choose to go against his biases and to expend his musicals's horizon.
Well said
Very true!
Preachhhh. Sure I have biases but I don't hold them firm, I at least give everything a shot when I get into bands. Some things take longer for me to acclimate to than others, and I like what I end up liking - no matter how fans perceive it. Sometimes I get with the crowd (ie. liking the Moody Blues Core Seven) and other times I run against them (ie. preferring Abacab to Selling England or BiG Generator to Topographic Oceans) but I follow one simple rule: if I think it sounds good, I like it.
If you start off as a Metal fan (Deep Purple, Black Sabbath etc) it's easy to listen to softer music later. Not the other way around... Like Prog? Borderline...
Progressive/Symphonic Rock/Metal
1. The Moody Blues
2. Pink Floyd
3. Opeth
4. Rush
5. Queensryche
6. Genesis
7. Death
8. Epica
9. Between the Buried and Me
10. Nightwish
11. Savatage
12. Within Temptation
13. Delain
14. Gojira
15. Uriah Heep
16. ELO
17. Procol Harum
18. Leaves' Eyes
19. Mastodon
20. After Forever
21. Yes
22. King Gizzard & the Lizard Wizzard
23. Traffic
24. Cynic
25. Voivod
26. Camel
27. Sirenia
28. Renaissance
29. Fates Warning
30. TSO
31. Supertramp
32. Angra
33. Gentle Giant
34. Avantasia
35. Emerson Lake and Palmer
36. Porcupine Tree
37. Liquid Tension Experiment
38. Xandria
39. Jethro Tull
40. Transatlantic
41. King's X
42. The Nice
43. Manfred Mann's Earth Band
44. Blind Guardian
45. Kansas
46. Roxy Music
47. Tool
48. Argent
49. Apocalyptica
50. Van der Graaf Generator
51. Atheist
52. Nevermore
53. Emperor
54. Obscura
55. X Japan
56. Evanescence
57. Anathema
58. The Agonist
59. Enslaved
60. UK
61. Ihashn
62. Asia
63. Gordian Knot
64. Flying Colors
65. Kamelot
66. Primus
67. Winger
68. Caligula's Horse
69. Styx
70. The Mars Volta
71. Saga
72. Diabulus in Musica
73. Watchtower
74. Architects
75. Cradle of Filth
76. Leprous
77. Pestilence
78. Muse
79. Giles, Giles and Fripp
80. Rhapsody on Fire
81. Isis
82. Dixie Dregs
83. Beyond the Black
84. Gong
85. Symphony X
86. Nekatar
87. Amorphis
88. Visions of Atlantis
89. Lunatica
90. Imperia
91. Tristania
92. Nemesea
93. Animals as Leaders
94. Jinjer
95. Platypus
96. Dimmu Borgir
97. Fleshgod Apocalypse
98. Spock's Beard
99. Protest the Hero
100. Ayreon
I would argue that almost any music nerd would study album credits, who produced the album etc., this has not so much to do with the genre and does not only apply to metal and prog but also to rock, hard rock, punk, ska, new wave, post punk, industrial, goth…
Agree wholeheartedly!
I'm 62 and was there during the formative metal years. Metal jumped the shark for me with "cookie monster " vocals. I hate that shit. The gall to cuss the incredible voice of Geddy Lee. I've been going down the progressive trail with early Genesis, Yes, and Floyd instead.
The issue with being a critic can often come down to what kind of listener you are; someone whose first impressions are often correct, or someone whose opinion shifts with time. I can say that 90% of the time, the main takeaway I have from an album is the same the first listen and months later. The details will change, but it's rare to go from not liking something to liking it, or liking it to loving it, etc. That's me, though.
That's interesting. You haven't had certain music grow on you?
@@cleftturnip7774 Yes, but it's a matter of degree. It's very rare for me to start really enjoying an album I didn't like at all on first listen. It's actually more likely an album I do like gets tired very quickly, so if anything, I think I wind up being more positive overall because I don't get to wait months to review things.
@@bgmchrisc interesting. I've always found the stuff I really like took time to grow on me.
Not the most interesting subject, but Martin and Pete breathe life into it, one of my favorite shows on this channel!
49:25 A great point. We live in an age of extremes, across the board: one can buy a car (stock, from a dealer) with 700 HP; UFC is on ESPN; some of the X-games and Olympic winter sports are bonkers compared to days of yore. And same with music. As kids, we thought "Eruption" was impossible and referred to players as "gods"; now, there are children who play it on TH-cam.
I forgot Rush, Led Zeppelin, Ten Years After, Aerosmith, Alice Cooper
Devin Townsend /or rather The Devin Townsend Project/-a perfect cross between metal and prog rock.Loved by both camps.
A very interesting discussion. Great points made with balance. I agree, we love what we love.
My 2 cents worth ~ Prog lovers often also like metal, but usually without the screaming and growl vocals, but they also often like jazz fusion. Metal lovers often like Prog, but don’t usually lean into Jazz fusion. Jazz Fusion lovers often like Prog, but don’t usually lean into metal. All three love musicality and virtuosity . People who don’t like any of the 3 genres have no place in bagging any of them.
I believe Pete probably thought on how many HVSquares are apt to listen to prog bands and how many Prog Seaters are apt to listen to metal to justify his headline.
I don't think that would go like you seem to think it would. I know 5 of the 9 PS guys like metal. I have serious doubts more than half of HVS likes prog
@@georgelamie7001 got it. I watch both shows and I couldn't figure out who likes what (I can only guess). That's why I wondered if Pete had considered both groups as an example.
Totally agree with your views on rankings.
I'm mostly a prog guy now but grew up on metal. Things I dislike about metal are "Cookie Monster" vocals and non-creative lyrics. Some metal is just too complex now and sacrifices melody. It's all seems to be put together on a computer and the drumming is too perfect with no human sound to it.
I love it when "genres" combine and meld together. AcidJazzMetalPsychRockFunk. Long songs, extended instrumental jams, "interesting" lyrics. Miles Davis' "Agharta" is probably the benchmark of this. The so-called "purity" of any one style can get boring.
I like both, was into metal first then prog as I got older. I suppose prog fans feel they are smarter than metal heads. Metal heads being stereotyped as the guys who hung out in the smoking area of school (when they still had those) and fix cars. The film Return of the Secaucus Seven called prog "heavy metal goes to college." The 2 genres do intersect so you would think they would like both. In the 80s, prog was out and it was punk vs metal in the Boston area where I grew up.
"heavy metal goes to college." - BTW: Rock Goes to College & Jazz Goes to College were two BBC tv series that featured live performances of up-and-coming artists. Pretty good series (the rock one anyway) featuring: Be Bop Deluxe, George Thorogood, Cheap Trick, AC/DC, The Cars, Rory Gallagher, The Police, Bill Bruford, Joe Jackson, April Wine, The Motels, U2, Gillan, etc
Sounds to me that in part the definitions of music categories are more fluid than rigid, and that allows for lots of bleed over in fandom. I would also proffer that each genre can have many sub-genres (metal for sure) that it then allows for so many blocks for each fan to build their opinions with. I myself have a very personally rigid idea of what is prog. Some prog is metal and some metal is definitely not prog in my view. In my opinion metal that is also prog is interesting and worth listening to me but most non-prog metal does not interest me unless their is a specific element of the band (vocals, guitar work, lyrical theme) that may catch me. I also need to be caught by the music first. I may never give the lyrical content a chance if I feel the music is boring or uninteresting in some way. Then again, I can fall for a riff and hook filled mind numbingly stupid fun song too. I guess the overview is that we fans are truly variant as the music we like. Since their is enough of us we get groupings that looks like we have lots of similarity and yet there is also plenty of divergence which i s simply personal preference. For me I like it or I don't. Others opinions doesn't much matter except where it will get me to attempt a listen at something I didn't know about.
I enjoy your reviews, but I recognize that they are YOUR reviews. I’m not personally butthurt when you have an opinion about an album that is very different than mine. As you’ve said, we all can’t like everything. I do enjoy your point of view regardless because your experience and tastes are so varied that weather we agree or not on a particular album, I’m going to appreciate your point of view.
That said, Nirvana and Pearl Jam are awesome.
I certainly don't think fans of one genre are by default more open-minded than fans of another. There are plenty of closed-minded metalheads, and closed-minded jazz fans too. I've been exposed to both. However, slightly playing devil's advocate here: I'm going to offer a possible explanation as to why metalheads might be more open to progressive music than typical prog fans.
It's because metal has always had something to prove. Some metal fans definitely feel this way, and when i was a teen in the 1990s I felt this too (I really couldn't care less by now, but I understand why it's a thing). What I mean by this is -- look at what was, and often still is, the most mainstream conception of what metal is. Metal is loud and dumb. That's what a lot of people still think, despite Martin's good points about how metal almost incorporates progressive stuff by default nowadays. Metal wasn't seen as virtuoso music by most people except the fans. The fans, in large part, want to demonstrate that metal is not just a bunch of stupid kids banging on instruments the way their parents and "authority" type figures think it is. That is a reason they welcome progressive influences in metal music.
I was talking about this with a younger non-metalhead friend the other day, but how many people who sucked in school and didn't get along well in the educational system still ended up reading books and studying history on their own time because of Iron maiden? I think it's a larger number than some realise. But metal presents this exterior of toughness and rigidity and masculine power above all else that on the surface would seem to repel intelelctual endeavours. It's those of us who really get into the music who see there is something beneath all that -- a beating heart that is romantic and emotional; poetic and redolent of fantastic dreams and otherworldly imaginings.
And then there's the metal player's constant need, started in the 1980s, to push themselves harder. Play faster. Play more complex. Be wilder than the competition. I think that ties into it, too.
Once enjoying Genesis and Rush and still do but enjoying bands like Therion and Insomnium now as well
I gotta agree with many of the comments...the metal fans I've known over my 53 years are way more close minded than the prog fans. I'm all over the map musically... I either like it or I don't.
Metal Vs Prog, pop rock vs hard rock, classical vs jazz, edm vs blues, punk vs new wave.
The list goes on and on.
Musical life would be very boring, if we dont venture beyond our original music taste.
No one like a critic but I think Pete does a great first impression of an album in his reviews. As he listens to an album more than once.
Anybody else pre-order Geddy's memoir? Hoping he comes to my neck of the woods on his book tour!! RUSH RULES!:)
I'm going to wait a year until it goes on paperback. My mom said it's a good idea to wait until it's on paperback because it's cheaper and you won't damage the book. I think I got Roger Daltrey's book hardcovered because I wanted that book so badly because I'm a huge fan of The Who. Plus I wanted to get Greg Graffin and Bono's books but I'm still waiting til it goes on paperback. I have to be patient.
This is a bit of a weird one. I love prog, but everything else too, from The Damned to Sibelius, Deep Purple to Ornette Coleman. I always saw prog and fusion as a meetting place rather than a series of Chinese walls.
A big factor is whether you’re a lyrics person. I can’t turn off the verbal part of my brain and ignore inane lyrics. Many many metal bands put a lot of effort into good lyrics, but let’s face it, many don’t.
I initially thought this was making a genuine observation, and was ready to counter the idea metal fans are open minded about all other genres, which is patently, demonstrably ludicrous, as anyone commenting on FB group/pages can attest.
Clearly now watching this it is clearly about the crossover of progmetal genres, and can concede many prog fans don't take well to too much metal or death metal etc being labelled as prog/progressive. Anyone in UK who buys Prog magazine will be aware of much resistance to the many bands who would feature on the free CD that used to accompany the magazine, as well as a mindeset often stuck in 1973/74
I would contest the first observations made re Hawkwind which has no real evidence to support it, so I would counter with my own anecdotal evidence growing up, where it was prog fans who were into Hawkwind, regardless of time signatures etc. Given the general hippiness, lefty politics, pot/LSD culture around the band, that was way more in tune with prog fan mindset of the day, and the spaciness tied in with the evolving electronic music scene. Hawkwind may have grown heavier for a period entering NWOBM times, but I'm not sure that's enough to advance the theory more metalheads are more open-minded to them than prog fans. Anyone who still catches them live would be unable to make that definitive judgement base on audience demographics
So while disputing this assertion by Martin, there's no doubting his observation modern musicians have moved on significantly from the 'old' guys. Which is all the more reason for people to invest time in newer bands. Like movie adaptations of revered books, the old albums are always going to be there. There are so many great bands out there now that do deserve our attention and support