Why Aren’t Prog Fans as Open-Minded as Metal Fans? +Bonus Rant (w/ Martin Popoff)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 มิ.ย. 2023
- Join Pete Pardo & Martin Popoff for a response to a reader suggested topic about the overlap between prog & metal fans and the music, and why one group might be more open-minded than the other.
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There is another aspect about the connection of prog & metal that rarely - if ever - gets talked about: Both genres are often made by, marketed towards and listened by people who would consider themselves "outsiders", "introverts" or "nerds". Almost everyone I know that listens to metal / prog and weird music in general felt at some point in their life a certain melancholy, loneliness, and were often called out for their dark humor and their tendency to daydream.
My theory is that prog and metal are the predecessors of "extreme genres" - styles of music that tried to bend and step over the boundaries over what is considered "listenable" and "reasonable". Many music nerds today are for example into bands like Death Grips, Swans, Lingua Ignota or the like. Probably bands that would not be considered "prog" or "metal", but certainly "extreme" and highly provocative.
I was the only one in my whole school that listened to "extreme" metal back in the early 80's e.g. Venom, Hellhammer (and then Celtic Frost), Voi Vod etc. But that didn't really bother me, it was just a shame I couldn't discuss it with anyone
The nerds thing I do understand. However, I didn't think that prog fans were outsiders. I do know that they're nerds though, which is totally cool. Metalheads being outsiders makes a lot of sense. I wouldn't say that I'm an introvert. I do however, do spend a lot more time listening to music than hanging out with my friends and making new friends, which I definitely need to do more of. But there's so much music I like/need to listen to that I total forgot about other people in my life, and I do need to get better at that.
@@takodabostwick8507 Hey Takoda :) In my opinion (and probably also in the opinion of modern day psychology) an introvert is not automatically a person that is "lonely" or doesn't have friends. Heck, I know a lot of people that are talkative and lots of fun in groups, but who would consider themselves "introverts". Being introverted mainly means that being by yourself is something that is relaxing for you.
So in that sense, people who are comfortable being "by themselves" also usually don't find it hard to listen to an album in its entirety, in the dark, with headphones, completely immersing themselves in an experience that others might consider "unpleasant" or "disturbing".
I find many metal fans, even punk fans, to be pretty sensitive people.
The same applies to Punk, Indie Rock, Psychedelic Rock etc. In my experience Prog is not at all music of outsiders. With metal and punk you need to be very specific which band at which time was music for outsiders because the musical landscape changed a lot, e.g. Metallica in 1991 wasn‘t music for outsiders.
Deep Purple, Uriah Heep, Black Sabbath, Sweet, Nazareth, AC/DC, Scorpions, Rainbow, Whitesnake, Thin Lizzy, Bachman Turner Overdrive, we back in the 70's Called it HardRock
As a Prog fanatic since the age of 12, the Prog Snob tendency that makes me laugh the most is their resolute hatred of anything under 5 minutes long, and insistance on calling any song under 5 minutes "pop" whether the song in question actually exhibits any pop elements or not. But I just shrug the Prog Snobs off. So, they're missing out on a lot of great music. Not my issue. Rock On!
I did read a review for Haken's Vector once saying that the album didn't have enough music on it... It was about 45 minutes long. I just laughed
Prog and pop CAN coexist and it's gonna take a lot of work to dismantle the narrative that they cannot. It's just the natural progression of one's craft - if one thing you're doing isn't working try something else and see how it goes. Though I do love a great deal of the works these prog bands made in their prime, every single prog band I've seen go pop, NAILED IT! No exceptions. Not to mention prog-gone-pop and shorter material also gives prog junkies something to play in front of not yet enlightened people.
I heard music like Yes, Renaissance and King Crimson because my older brother and father listened to them and I heard opera and classical music my whole life - and now i still listen to opera and classical but mostly metal - symphonic metal,death metal,folk metal, progressive metal, I think because only hearing good music and no pop or anything like that
For me talent in the lead vocals portion of a song is important.. the growels of early Opeth and Dream Theater... I think the masses agree with me as both bands grew up and realized this wasnt going to sell albums.
"The Lemmy Factor"! But hey, for some reason a percentage of metal fans seem to need to define their manhood by how heavy and/or threatening their music is. Never understood it.
I think rap and heavy metal stimulate release of the hormone testosterone which produces a buzz in large quantities.
As rock music fans in the seventies, my friends and I declared that we liked heavy and progressive music. Some bands had a clear distinction, but many did not. We rarely, if ever, used the term heavy metal.
Pete and Martin. I don’t know if you guys have ever seen The Musical Box, a Genesis tribute band. Well I saw them last night in Norwalk, Connecticut, they preformed The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. It was a mind blowing show. Absolutely incredible. You guys must see this outfit if they play near you.
The Musical Box is really, really talented. Their reproduction of the individual tours was/is phenomenal. The Foxtrot and Selling England tours were great too.
The more specific genre is, fans tend to be more elitist since they think it's "their" music that other people don't get it.
Hmmm.... would be interesting to do a poll about if prog fans enjoy other genres vs metal fans, and get some sort of real time data, because as a fan who loves both, I come across waaaay more metal fans who are more close minded and less apt to venture beyond their given taste (even down to the type of metal genre). I don't agree with the headline/original question, my experience tells the opposite.
And see, I know WAY more metal fans who will listen to and like prog and plenty prog fans who won't sniff anything that's metal. I think it goes both ways...but, there's no way to quantify it, but it made for a fun conversation.
@@seaoftranquilityprog Yeah most of the comments (maybe all) including mine are anecdotal. Everyone knows of specific examples to 'prove' either argument
@@seaoftranquilityprog perhaps it evens out?
@@wolf1977 why i proposed doing a poll
I dipped my toes into both. In the past 5 years alone I've went from Eurovision junkie to power metal enjoyer to progger. So basically I went from 3 minute songs maximum to 6 minute songs minimum. A shift I never saw coming
I witnessed the Mortal Remains event at the V&A Museum and found it quite moving. It's a must experience for all Floyd fans. It is such a frustrating mess that two intelligent articulate men can no longer communicate with each other on a level that matters.
Loved the discussion, guys! Thanks for fielding my question. 😊
Like one commenter below, I was under the impression (based on the title) that this video was going to cover the two highlighted 'camps' vis-à-vis musical appreciation on the whole. Now knowing that this isn't the case, I'll proceed accordingly. I won't get into the 'which 'group' is more receptive to the other' business; instead, I'll just talk about my own personal feelings on the matter.
Of the two genres / sub-genres in question, I'm undoubtedly a bigger fan of progressive rock. Certainly, getting into it changed my entire world, musically speaking; Broadened my horizons immeasurably. While I can see the parallels between progressive rock and metal, I think it all comes down to style and personal taste; Enjoying the latter works best for me when listening to it in small / fair doses. There's something about its timbre that has not agreed with me whenever I've attempted to consume copious amounts of the stuff; I would find myself losing interest, as it all started to come off as a bit monotonous, and lacking in varied dynamics (relatively speaking.) I can only get so much out of loud, heavy, distorted guitar riffs (whether simple or intricate) being the focal point for so long - good for a time, but afterwards, I need something more.
Metalheads reading this will probably be incensed by these comments, but keep in mind, this is just my personal response / taste. With all that said, there are about a dozen (terrible guesstimate) metal bands of whom I consider myself a fan. Outside of that, it's bits and pieces here and there. I couldn't ever say that I outright dislike metal.
EDIT: When it comes to listening habits, there are major differences between those who do it for a living (whether part-time or full-time), and those who don't. Captain Obvious, but many from both groups constantly intermingle on here, and with this, certain expectations arise from both sides. An entire video could have been devoted to this topic; would've been a very interesting one. I can't immediately recall if it has already been done.
I think age and when you came in is very important. I am a fan of both metal and prog. But I am a little younger than older prog fans I come across on the internet. They started with ‘classic’ rock/hard rock and prog in the 1960s and 1970s. I started with metal and alternative rock in the 80s and 90s as a kid and then went back to explore prog. I think that makes a big difference.
I notice older music fans from the 60s and 70s are more hostile and sceptical to the musical movements that come after the mid 70s: punk, new wave, Eighties metal, grunge, alternative/indie. You see that pattern emerge, and opinions remaining even now.
So there’s more open mindedness in looking back than in looking forward and what was a new movement at the time.
@@jimmycampbell78 Our paths seem similar. I grew up in the '80s and '90s (mostly the latter), listened to both alternative and metal artists, then in 2000, I got into progressive rock. Agree with your comments on the generational thing; I see everything you mentioned all too often (online, and off.)
Gotta say i have a metalhead friend and he is pretty close minded when it comes to other genres than what he listens to. Imagine being a metalhead who disses Rainbow, Black Sabbath and Deep Purple. The classics! And I try to get him into prog but it's so hard to get him to appreciate anything. Even some more complex metal not necessarily prog is hard for him to get into. He just sticks to the basic straight in your face stuff. Such a shame since there is very much to enjoy out there both in prog and metal, and even the stoner area! I'll keep showing him stuff till it clicks, I believe everyone can enjoy these genres.
Same here. I find it ti be the contrary depending on the age of the person, boomers seem to be more closed minded if they are Prog fans, I’m a Gen’xer and a Prog head, but I am very open minded to music, not much of a metal fan though.
@@erorufurakku6378 very true, the quote still reminds me, but I try not to put the same band over and over on him, just find new stuff and have him listen to it whenever, if he likes it it's fine, not like he didn't like any prog, he quite enjoys Porcupine Tree. Cheers!
Or as Luis Naser (ITPS) says, you like what you like and the rest can you know what.
I'm not a Prog guy myself but I'll stick up for the fans of Prog Rock. I can totally see why they may be put off by some of the staples of the Metal genre. When so much of Metal is always raging at an 11, it can become obnoxious and monotonous for some. I used to be a huge Hard Rock/Metal fan and now I listen to the kind of stuff barely discussed on this channel (Post-Punk/Alt Rock/Indie). Watching this channel is nostalgic fun for me but yeah, I understand where some Prog Rock fans are coming from with their shunning of the heavier stuff.
I became a progressive rock fan as a kid due to my dad's music taste. I took to Yes and never looked back but I love glam rock, hard rock and metal. I don't really like one genre more than the other because I just like music and sometimes I want to hear the complicated or more intricate music vs the aggressive sound.
Not sure either group has the lock on open-mindedness, or close-mindedness for that matter. But I've seen examples of both extremes from fans of both genres.
Best way to listen to music I'd by yourself! Most people when they say it sucks or it's just showmanship in most cases don't own what your playing and can't be rational , so in these cases what u do is crank it to shake the rib cage level! 😊
lol...I've never heard anyone describe metal fans as "open-minded,' but I guess compared to prog fans they are.
I'm with you. I don't find either camp to be particularly open minded. But I would probably give the edge to metalheads.
I think there might possibly be a snobbery factor at play in prog - just as there is jazz snobbery (ie): the emphasis on virtuosity, sophistication, etc.
@@garyh.238 You find it in metal too. Coincidentally, "prog metal". Or whatever name you might have for it. How many times have you heard a Rush fan tell you that "smart people" listen to them?
@@independenceltd. Good point! Yes it exists in every genre I suppose.
Pete, all I have to say about your justified rant is: You review albums when you feel like it. I was glad to to see you bring back the "what you've been listening to" video recently, and I don't know, who among us has time to check out all the new releases In The Exact Moment anyway? I watch this channel because I like the personalities involved and I want to learn about new music. That first thing does count for a lot. I am curious about what you think of various albums, but you can tell me today, next week, or next year -- doesn't matter at all really.
Simply put 'One man's noise is another man's symphony '
My Quote .
One mans beast is another man's beauty
.... trash / gold etc.
I love fusion, funk and soul jazz as well as Prog Rock. I want to believe that I’ll accept everything from PFM to Alphonse Mouzon. Thanks Pete and Martin. Great debate and discussion.
I was a teenager during the 1970's. The cool crowd listened to what was called "hard rock." This included everything from Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, the Stones, Beatles etc. Nerds listened to pop music on AM radio. Music wasn't divided into genres then. Hard rock was basically for kids who experimented with drugs to some extent. The perfectly well adjusted kids without grievance usually weren't attracted to hard music. Later generations categorized music. Most of the people on these music platforms did not experience our music first hand. Therefore, they will never really get it. Just like I will never really get big band music. It doesn't mean later generations can't enjoy music from any age. It just makes me laugh when they attempt to break down its origins. You just had to have been there, in my opinion to really get it. You need to have experienced the culture and time it was produced to call it your music.
It's the exact opposite from my 5 decades of being a prog fan. Metal fans have always been way more myopic, in my observation.
Agreed.
Agreed. But Prog fans also have a tendency to be condescending and pretentious. So it really goes both ways.
Metal fans have childish tastes. That's why Martin is moving past it.
And if you are (like me) a fan of both....? Do I have the worst attributes of both fanbases 🤣
@@fattymcfatso1083 "Prog fans also have a tendency to be condescending and pretentious."
I remember in junior high(late summer 83 to spring 85),metal fans were in to metal and that was it.They never had time for Duran Duran,Prince,Hall and Oates or other non metal acts that were popular at the time.
We never used the word "prog" back than because we didn't even know that word.I don't recall any one ever talking about Yes,ELP,Jethro Tull,King Crimson,Marillion etc.
Of course,at the time,the only prog act that was popular were Yes,but none of my friends were in to them.Genesis of course were still doing well,but I doubt any of my classmates could name one of their songs from the first six albums.
And of course Rush were still putting out albums and touring regularly.
Respect for both your rants guys. I totally get the time constraints and you won't hear from me "where is your review" or to change your mind. And as to the question "that ruins your day Martin", I will NEVER ask you that - I will just read your work!!
Why do we have to put labels on everything.Back in the day we might pick up a new Zeppelin,Heep,ELP and Neil Young and Cat Stevens it was just rock.Didn't need to put labels on anything it was rock
Great conversation!
A big thank you to Pete for continuing to champion Opeth. I'm one of those "never death metal" guys that was eventually won over. They are just too damn great at what they do to ignore, even with the death growls of the earlier albums. I'm probably not their typical fan. I try not to get too hung up on labels.
After Pink Floyd blew up that score board at Ivor Wayne stadium in 1975 there was a ban on concerts there until Rush played there in the early 2000’s.
Both groups can be close minded at times, not everyone though, we're all different. I was born in the 70's, grew up in the 80's, so I definitely love the hard rock/metal genres the best BUT I really enjoy prog too, I always liked a lot of Rush's stuff but I also liked a lot more prog than I thought I did. Supertramp, Yes, Styx, King Crimson etc. all had songs I liked, watching your channel and a few others, it really opened my mind up to a lot of stuff I wouldn't have been caught dead listenng too, years ago. Prog bands like Gentle Giant, I like some of it, don't like some of it, I like Genesis but never really got into the Peter Gabriel stuff but there are songs I like now. I like what I like I guess but I'm not as close minded as I once was, even newer metal or new stuff from older bands, I wouldn't really give it much of a chance, now I 'll listen to more modern albums, I have found a lot of cool bands, looking at new and vintage bands I never used to care for, or even knew about. Sorry for the long winded comment. lol Cheers guys.
In my experience it’s the metal fans who are narrow minded
Metal came first for me. I loved everything heavy and like you guys said, metal fans dig into their bands and want to I know what makes them play the music they do. That is how I discovered bands being discussed as influences like Yes, Pink Floyd, Genesis, Camel, Kansas and ELP being spoken of so highly by bands that I loved I knew I had to give those guys a shot. Prog really became my go to. On top of that, progressive metal has really pushed the envelop and made me appreciate the musicianship and level of creativity all the more. This was a great episode. My only point of disagreement would be when I take in new music. Sometimes it may not gel with me on the 1st, 2nd, heck even 10th listen in cases but something finally clicks and really opens my ears to a level of appreciation. I do like the Extreme album as discussed and feel the same way. It has some great, great moments but overall it is just a good listen.
speaking of Hawkwind. Simon (Reynolds) says that the advance cassette of My Bloody Valentine's Isn't Anything sounded better than the LP and CD releases. Hawkwind are my example of that. I had a cassette of Hall Of The Mountain Grill and the eq/mix of The Psychedelic Warlords (Disappear In Smoke) sounded fantastic! (an inspiration for World Of Twist's Sons Of The Stage?). but when I later bought the vinyl I was surprised to find the same track sounded muted/duller. maybe somewhere there is a vinyl pressing that matches the clarity and brightness/energy of the cassette - a project for future freetime (and when the wantslist runs low).
I totally understand the snobby argument of both prog and metal camps, but these two camps are so informative and care so much for the music - it’s mainly been a great learning experience for me and I’m thankful to them.
I think you should have brought Led Zeppelin to the conversation as well. They are neither a progressive rock band nor a metal band. But they have many songs that come in those categories. Firstly, metal: they have created some of the most metal ahead songs in their time that will still be undeniably called metal today. Communication Breakdown was the most metal sounding song till 69 and was the primary inspiration for the definitive metal song Paranoid, Immigrant Song was the most metal song till then, you have Over The Hills and Song Remains The Same which are basically folk metal. In My Time Of Dying, which is half blues rock and half heavy metal. For prog, they have Stairway To Heaven, which is so many things like folk, hard rock, metal, progressive rock epic; No Quarter, Rain Song; Kashmir is the heaviest progressive rock song ever made probably and it is not even metal, epic of epics and progressive beyond progressive; In The Light, Ten Years Gone. Then the definitive, archetypal progressive metal song: Achilles Last Stand, 12 years before Dream Theatre came. These songs have influenced so many of the contemporary and future bands to carve their own paths, especially in metal and progressive metal. Achilles Last Stand especially was Rush on steroids, the metal turned up along with the prog of Rush. These songs and the band is universally beloved, especially by metal bands and prog bands.
IMHO, Pink Floyd could almost be classified as a blues band. Gilmore style is definitely blues based, as I have heard him say in some interviews. Comfortably Numb is blues based, as is Money and Time.
That’s a big stretch. All rock is blues based so their would be some blues influence. But 90 percent of what they do is as far away from blues as it gets . So have to disagree Floyd could never be considered a blues band or even In he blues genre.
I was in grade school during the 70s and in HS in the early 80s and an undergrad during the late 80s, so my take is a little skewed. I may have been a bit too young to really appreciate a lot of the classic prog groups but was really into hard rock and metal in the 80s, a decade known for metal. I am more of a hard rock/metal fan, but one of the first bands I was really a huge fan of was Rush. I like a lot of prog rock, but I am pretty selective of it. I can't stand Dream Theater, Peter Gabriel, or Genesis with Peter Gabriel, nor have I been much of a fan of Pink Floyd, though when I like a Floyd song, I really like it. There are also some Rush albums that I don't really care for, mainly the material after Signals until Vapor Trails (though the jury is still out on Counterparts and Test for Echo for me). Of course, there is a lot of metal I don't care for, such as Death Metal (sorry, but the vocals grate on me). But me age is showing through. Overall, I think prog rock fans are more snobbish than metal fans. Early metal fans tend to be more open minded than more recent metal fans. That's been my experience though. I think what biased me was to that opinion was my undergrad days. Guys that listened to bands like Yes and King Crimson thought their music was superior to anyone else's and looked down on metal heads. For me, I'll give it a group or an album a listen before jumping to a conclusion based solely on genre.
I love music. Couldn't give a damn what label people put on it.
Yes,but you would have preferences?
So yer a "I love ALL music" type person . . . Can't even talk to yer type, honestly.
@@fattymcfatso1083exactly! And furthermore nobody has the time to listen to everything. You gotta pick your preferences.
@@wernermoritz882 exactly
Jazz people tend to be the most closed minded people IMHO. It has to be pure jazz or it's actually invalid music.
Some complain there's not enough horns or brass section. Dated someone like that. Sorry she had to go.
Can't agree, I love Jazz but I also love fusion, prog, world music, electronic, ambient, avant-garde, classical, even what I would call some experimental pop artists like Bjork, Kate Bush, Tori Amos, Everything Everything, Roxy Music, David Bowie the list goes on.
A lot of older prog rock fans are stuck in the past, they've forgotten the true meaning of progressive.
I would tend to agree (also as applied to fans of classical) but that's strictly speaking in terms of personal experience which obviously represents a VERY small sub-group of the much larger total fan base. These comments are all very much based on anecdotal 'evidence'
I did some jazz school in the 80s, and your statement is deadly accurate in my experience
Good point. In fact it even occurs within jazz families. The Marsalis family for instance. Back in the mid-80's, it seems that jazz purist / trumpeter Wynton Marsalis almost disowned his brother, jazz saxophonist Branford Marsalis, for having sold out by lending his talents to Sting's project.
Personally Im A Lover of MUSIC. Genre is Not A factor. Thier is only 2 kinds of Music 1- the kind you like 2 - the kind you dont like..
Same!
No reservations on either. I like what I like. The elements of musicality that might be more noticeable in prog bleeds over into metal and vice-versa.
This topic would be better discussed with the guys from " In The Prog Seat " show. Every metal fan I interact with(save one) hate prog, and don't care for prog metal that much either(some like Rush, some don't). I have one close friend who's a metal fan who absolutely adores Jethro Tull, though(respects Martin Barre).
Most fanbases tend to develop a certain form of elitism or another, resulting in being rather critical to radically dismissive when it comes to a lot of musical styles (they don't know that well) , of course each individual can always choose to go against his biases and to expend his musicals's horizon.
Well said
Very true!
Preachhhh. Sure I have biases but I don't hold them firm, I at least give everything a shot when I get into bands. Some things take longer for me to acclimate to than others, and I like what I end up liking - no matter how fans perceive it. Sometimes I get with the crowd (ie. liking the run the Moody Blues did from Future Passed to Seventh Sojourn) and other times I run against them (ie. prefering Abacab to Selling England or BiG Generator to Topographic Oceans) but I follow one simple rule: if I think it sounds good, I like it.
I have to say that I LOVE prog, but I like metal too. To me, it’s not so much about the classification, it’s about the quality of the music. I don’t stick w/ a genre.
My dad and i have this kind of conversation all the time regarding prog fans, we both feel that they're not open minded because most of them tend to stay in their comfort zone and aren't willing to seek out new bands to listen to. They prefer to stay in the late 60s to mid 70s realm without changing, metal fans as open minded is an interesting way to describe them because while they do at times tend to stay in their own realm, they are at least always willing to give things a chance.I went to see Al Di Meola back in 2017 and there was a lot of metal fans in the audience which i thought was very unusual but interesting to see especially as he is more in line with the jazz style of music, he's a guitarist who does appeal to a lot of metal fans. It is a very interesting that's asked and one that will have a lot of different views.
I fit the mold quite tightly of only listening to 60s pop and 70s prog for the most part. Occasionally outside of that, I'll listen to Type O Negative or old death metal.
I am a prog fan and i prefer 60s/70s bands purely because i think they were better musically. but in saying that i'm always trying to find new bands and give them a chance. any suggestions always welcome.
Getting into music in the late 70’s early 80’s in the UK - at the time of NWOBHM - rock fans tended to like a range of music that could be divided into subgenres like hard rock, folk rock, prog rock and heavy metal. At gigs and in rock pubs you’d see denim jackets that invariably featured diverse patches and badges across the previously mentioned sub-genres - which tends to suggest that metal/prog are not mutually exclusive - their fans were often the same people.
Back then though, in the UK, music was very, very tribal. You wouldn’t see rock fans having patches or badges featuring punk bands for example, and punks typically wouldn’t go to see metal bands either as there was a completely different ethos. That doesn’t mean to say heavy rockers didn’t like other music, just that there was a clear divide between tribes, crossed by very few bands.
I have a denim jacket and I have a ton of patches on my jacket. Both punk and metal, alongside classic rock. I've got The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, The Who, The Kinks, Led Zeppelin, Green Day, All Time Low, Sum 41, Metallica, Megadeth, Slayer, Black Sabbath, Misfits, Bad Religion, A7X, Cannibal Corpse, Iron Maiden, The Cure, Queen, ACDC, Kiss, NOFX, Rancid, Queensryche, Pink Floyd and many more. Hopefully by today or tomorrow, I will get a Motorhead and Judas Priest patch to add to my jacket. These 2 are especially required according to me to say that I'm a metalhead. Stupid, I know, but that's I think that has been told by metal fans. I was very happy to have a Kinks patch because they are just so awesome and definitely an underrated band. I love them more The Rolling Stones and Led Zeppelin. I want to get some progressive patches, but I want to have more punk and metal patches, so I'm not sure if I'm going to get them. I looked for a patch for The Moody Blues, but the patches look terrible, so I'm going to get another Moody Blues t shirt instead. Oh well. Some people gave me compliments on my jacket and thought that it looked cool and awesome. A lot of people wear their band jackets whenever they go to shows. I said that whenever I go to shows, I would wear my band jacket just like everyone else. I'm gonna have to give compliments to other people wearing band jackets and maybe start a conversation about the jacket, alongside with the show.
In order of releases, here’s a list of definites that fused Prog-Metal:
-King Crimson
-Jethro Tull
-Gentle Giant
-Kansas
-Rush
Honorable mentions:
-Camel
-Hawkwind
-Soft Machine
-Mahavishnu Orchestra
Totally agree with your views on rankings.
Glad you mention A7X, Pete. That new album is mind blowing, lots of things happening there, but so rewarding. Those guys might lose a lot of fans but at least they're not afraid of trying new things. It's awesome. btw, My fav Yes album is Relayer, and I've been listening to it for 40+ ... years :-) , and yet A7X blows my brains out! Meaning you can perfectly be a fan of both (and more).
Great show!
Cheers.
Great show. When I saw the title I was hey, that's not my experience with music fans, but the video explained it better.
Pink Floyd was a prog band. Their early days had a lot of musique concrete, avant-garde, experimentation in sound and time signatures, long compositions (Atom Heart Mother & Echoes.) All of that fits into progressive rock. After DSotM they became less experimental and more organized with less improvisation.
I always saw the differences as electric guitar oriented. Electric guitar playing is very important for metal fans and prog fans don't really mind what instrument is the lead one. I' listen to both, I'm more of a prog fan, but I do like to know what the vocalist is singing so the growling vocal style of death or black metal would be a turn off for me.
One of the interesting crossover events was Steven Wilson producing Opeth. With Blackwater Park Opeth really started to lean into prog, while Porcupine Tree started to do the metal riffs with In Absentia. One band considered mostly metal, the other the poster child for modern prog, but both of them cooperating brought them a lot closer together sonically. And I think for many fans those bands were a crossover into the other genre.
I think that a good few hard rock and metal fans had time for Marillion, at least during their years with Fish. Like Iron Maiden, they had cracking album covers at the time, especially for the first two albums. Songs like Heart of Lothian had an energetic heavy feel even if hits like Lavender were a grab for commercial success. They were a lot less poppy than early 80s Genesis, anyway.
I forgot to mention that Marillion were given a lot of coverage in magazines like Kerrang, which I think gave them an entryway into acceptance among many who (like me) might have listened mostly to heavier bands.
Not the most interesting subject, but Martin and Pete breathe life into it, one of my favorite shows on this channel!
Awesome show! I can listen to you guys talk about music all day.
Popoff and Pardo are at it again with a bonus rant that was worth the wait. To respond to the final call by Pete, personally, it is often the vocals of the certain 'genres' and bands that distracts from the enjoyment of listening. Keep trying to get past that issue and listen to albums reviewed and discussed on SoT episodes but it often remains an issue. Perhaps just my age and long history of listening to more harmonic/melodic vocal stylings. But, never would have found Opeth's Damnation and later albums if not for SoT and continuing to try. As for the timing of reviews and listener's/viewers expectations, an expectation gap is not surprising and remain amazed at the amount of product reviewed on SoT. Never seem to catch up. Special thanks to Martin for sharing his Megadeth listening story near the end as it helped end with a great laugh. Thanks once again, gents, for your weekly shows. There ya go!
Yes "vocal stylings" can be an issue😎
Flat death metal vocals are always a deal breaker... There has to be some semblance of vocal range in order for me to enjoy music. Similarly, I dislike most rap music due to the lack of vocal melody.
Great show guys….always look forward to Friday with Pete and Martin!
Although I must admit I’m kind of surprised that neither Tull or Zeppelin were part of the conversation.
I completely understand about the reviews. Not everyone can get advance copies of new releases to get that review out early. Also, everyone has different tastes and looks for different things out of the music they listen to. It's great to like what you like, and you should not go around demanding validation for your tastes from album reviews that people post online or in magazines or such.
JC Rock and Metal Reviews did a poll about 2 weeks ago and asked the community poll which band he should do the review on first. Of the five up there, my top 3 were A7X, Rancid and Foo Fighters. I wasn't so sure what to choose because I love all the bands. He commented and said he will review all the bands, whichever came first. So much music comes out on the same day that it can be difficult to do 3-5 videos in one day reviewing all the albums. He ended up doing the reviews and I believe that he liked all of them. I was happy to hear that and I loved all of these albums. I thought that they were awesome. 2023 has given us a ton of awesome music so far.
Much of this depends on one’s “formative musical years” (roughly 10 to 20, in my experience). I hit age 10 in 1984, so my basic senses of “prog” and “metal,” while they have expanded, are still much tamer and more 1970s-inflected than those of my younger brother, who hit 10 in 1992. Just 8 years apart, but the difference in our case is massive. Some of what I hear as noise, he hears as music. (Technology also plays a big role.) I’m broadening my horizons, as is he, but our foundations are not quite the same.
There is definitely a difference - not so sure what it is I am really a metal fan and have been at many metal gigs. I recently went to a Riverside gig - prog band really, though they have some bits that are towards metal. The people there were clearly a different type of crowd to what is usually at metal gigs.
I think the thing is the propensity for the prog audience to essentially stand there almost judging whether what they are getting is any good. Not in a nasty way, just somewhat more stand offish in general.
Mariusz Duda was brilliant at dealing with that and moving the people there into a different space. Talking to us and encouraging participation. And he got it - and I would suspect he always does. He likes the joke of talking about part of a song and then saying 'we;ll get there in ,um, about 12minutes' (always 12 minutes)
Regarding Eloy / metal (I'm just listening to the '79 album now after watching ITPS) -- I've always considered Eloy almost a proto power metal band, it seems like most of the German PM bands come from a very similar mold and the overall bombastic & epic narrative tone of their music is very similar, but I've never heard anybody else make that connection before. I've always wondered if any of the European Power metal bands especially in Germany have cited Eloy as a major influence.
Rush, Maiden, Rainbow, even Sabbath to some extent, at certain times of their careers at least, had/have both proggy and metal elements.
I can’t believe Tool wasn’t mentioned at all. Fits this topic perfectly.
An idea for a Friday Morning Funhouse - what about a discussion of why some hugely popular 70s and 80s UK and European bands - say Slade, for example, were almost unknown in America at the time, and vice versa - a ginormous American band like Journey, which was almost unheard of - and never toured - in the UK, Europe and Australia?
I find a lot of metal and Prog are like two sides of the same coin. Especially modern metal Prog uses some tropes now used by both genres. The fact that they marry together so well prove my point. Love this sort of discussion please do more.
From my experience it's metalheads that are usually a lot more close minded and detest everything that's not HEAVY enough, god forbid. And i'm of course saying that as a generalization, being a metalhead myself and also loving pop, rap, electronic, prog, jazz, ect...
So it is possible bu there is that obsession with heaviness and extrimity that people who only listen to metal need to let go off a little bit so they can enjoy other stuff.
Devin Townsend /or rather The Devin Townsend Project/-a perfect cross between metal and prog rock.Loved by both camps.
To your point of Iron Maiden and Dream Theater, Maiden is my favorite band, and I would put DT as my 4th, and I’m mostly a metal/rock guy but I enjoy prog as well. (Rush breaks my top 10 too) and I adore all of Maidens modern era as well which often has a prog label put on it and Seventh Son of a Seventh Son is one of my favorite albums by them which is certainly on the proggy side.
I enjoy your reviews, but I recognize that they are YOUR reviews. I’m not personally butthurt when you have an opinion about an album that is very different than mine. As you’ve said, we all can’t like everything. I do enjoy your point of view regardless because your experience and tastes are so varied that weather we agree or not on a particular album, I’m going to appreciate your point of view.
That said, Nirvana and Pearl Jam are awesome.
As usual/ a tremendous Friday with Martin/ Pete. Thx guys 👍💯
Do you own a mellotron gary ?
I had to go grocery shopping, GARY. Excused absence? :) To your musing, I like a few Avenged Sevenfold albums, esp. the new one, which would vie for my album of the year at this point!
@@georgelamie7001 / 💯excused. I look for you, cause not same vibe without you. And , I was not being sarcastic, I remember you mentioning AVG 7️⃣ in a prior comment. Enjoy day 👍
@@garyjoyce2160 Incredible memory. c u in the morn
I feel bad. I’m an extreme fan and I was one of those people who was urging Pete to review this album. To my defense I was clueless that Rise was released before the album was. All I know was that several of my channels that I followed were raving about the Nuno solo in Rise and I mistakenly thought the album had been released already. SMH sorry about that Pete.
Great show as always - Every Friday watching “at the funhouse” I can’t help but feel like a student listening to 2 professors give a graduate level lecture on classic rock music :)
I've been told I'm an odd duck for liking both prog-rock and metal. Now, the caveat to that is I don't like harsh vocals. There are exceptions to that. The occasional growl, scream, or grunt in a word, or a few vocal lines I can deal with, but an entire song or album is too much for me to handle. Raspy vocals are alright too, but vocal quality is always a critical factor for me liking any music within my genre's. I consider myself mainly a progger, but I do step out every so often.
I like different types of music because I have different moods I get in and out of. I love the crunchy guitars and bottom end of metal. I don't like metal that is endlessly fast and repetitive. I love how Prog can change In a song like Band on the run, but when it goes to far like the first track on Gentle Giants Octopus I lose interest.
I don't care for free jazz yet jazz/rock fusion is my favorite genre, so I do need my music to be tied to a recognizable melody (at least most of the time)...Variety in music is important (at least to me), and pacing. To me early Genesis is almost a how-to when it comes to perfectly pacing their music (especially on the longer tracks). Many shredders (not all) don't seem to value this quality in music, it's straight-up full-on attack all the time with no opportunity to rest the ears & take a breath. Again not all but many...Quoting Miles: "It's not the notes you play, it's the notes you don't play"
@wolf1977 what your saying about shredding is how I feel too. Even if a Guitar player isn't thought of as Heavy Metal. The blues player Christone has got the same problem for me that Zakke Wylde has got. Way too much even though it's all very talented. After 30 seconds I'm thinking alright already save some for the next song.
Miles Davis is correct. Freddie King is a great example. He can go 6 or 7 seconds or more without playing during a solo and then play the simplest lick or a note, and I'm thinking damn this guy was amazing. Because the note he played was correct for the blues chord progression, but he didn't play anything to get there.
@@1jammyjerry1 My personal 'poster child' is Yngwie. Props to someone like Paul Gilbert whose music has evolved (Marty Friedman too)...I used to absolutely love Cacophony & Racer X in my younger days, those chops just impressed the you-know-what out of me. Now there are probably very few players who can play like that but it's like with antiques - simply being rare/one of a kind doesn't make a piece necessarily valuable. There are other factors that play into it - I think many 'guitar slingers' ignore those other factors in favor of chops
I'm 62 and was there during the formative metal years. Metal jumped the shark for me with "cookie monster " vocals. I hate that shit. The gall to cuss the incredible voice of Geddy Lee. I've been going down the progressive trail with early Genesis, Yes, and Floyd instead.
A very interesting discussion. Great points made with balance. I agree, we love what we love.
My 2 cents worth ~ Prog lovers often also like metal, but usually without the screaming and growl vocals, but they also often like jazz fusion. Metal lovers often like Prog, but don’t usually lean into Jazz fusion. Jazz Fusion lovers often like Prog, but don’t usually lean into metal. All three love musicality and virtuosity . People who don’t like any of the 3 genres have no place in bagging any of them.
If you start off as a Metal fan (Deep Purple, Black Sabbath etc) it's easy to listen to softer music later. Not the other way around... Like Prog? Borderline...
Anybody else pre-order Geddy's memoir? Hoping he comes to my neck of the woods on his book tour!! RUSH RULES!:)
I'm going to wait a year until it goes on paperback. My mom said it's a good idea to wait until it's on paperback because it's cheaper and you won't damage the book. I think I got Roger Daltrey's book hardcovered because I wanted that book so badly because I'm a huge fan of The Who. Plus I wanted to get Greg Graffin and Bono's books but I'm still waiting til it goes on paperback. I have to be patient.
I believe Pete probably thought on how many HVSquares are apt to listen to prog bands and how many Prog Seaters are apt to listen to metal to justify his headline.
I don't think that would go like you seem to think it would. I know 5 of the 9 PS guys like metal. I have serious doubts more than half of HVS likes prog
@@georgelamie7001 got it. I watch both shows and I couldn't figure out who likes what (I can only guess). That's why I wondered if Pete had considered both groups as an example.
In my experience, IRL and to many of the metal enjoyers that I talk to online, seem to be pretty open-minded and listen to/post all kinds of music that they're interested in. Am predominately a metal fan.
Also:
Gatekeeping is important, within the confines of the genres/subgenres/styles that is, but that doesn't mean that people don't/won't listen to other stuff. Me included.
I like both, was into metal first then prog as I got older. I suppose prog fans feel they are smarter than metal heads. Metal heads being stereotyped as the guys who hung out in the smoking area of school (when they still had those) and fix cars. The film Return of the Secaucus Seven called prog "heavy metal goes to college." The 2 genres do intersect so you would think they would like both. In the 80s, prog was out and it was punk vs metal in the Boston area where I grew up.
"heavy metal goes to college." - BTW: Rock Goes to College & Jazz Goes to College were two BBC tv series that featured live performances of up-and-coming artists. Pretty good series (the rock one anyway) featuring: Be Bop Deluxe, George Thorogood, Cheap Trick, AC/DC, The Cars, Rory Gallagher, The Police, Bill Bruford, Joe Jackson, April Wine, The Motels, U2, Gillan, etc
I (65 yo) am a prog fan who loves metal very much and
my son (20 yo) is a metal and punk fan who loves prog very much...
Our general taste combined goes from the 1950s till today.
I would love to meet your son! He and I would make great buddies! I love all of that stuff. I also love modern metal as bands. The progressive metal bands now are awesome, but I also love symphonic metal bands like Epica, Nightwish, Within Temptation, Leaves' Eyes and Delain. And I never got the punk vs metal vs prog thing! That's just bull crap to me. Why can't you like all the other stuff?
The issue with being a critic can often come down to what kind of listener you are; someone whose first impressions are often correct, or someone whose opinion shifts with time. I can say that 90% of the time, the main takeaway I have from an album is the same the first listen and months later. The details will change, but it's rare to go from not liking something to liking it, or liking it to loving it, etc. That's me, though.
That's interesting. You haven't had certain music grow on you?
@@cleftturnip7774 Yes, but it's a matter of degree. It's very rare for me to start really enjoying an album I didn't like at all on first listen. It's actually more likely an album I do like gets tired very quickly, so if anything, I think I wind up being more positive overall because I don't get to wait months to review things.
@@bgmchrisc interesting. I've always found the stuff I really like took time to grow on me.
Angel shirted both Gendres with great Elan And Allure!... Uriah Heep fits the bill quite nicely!
I'm just a music lover that hates snobbery. And, unfortunately, almost every genre has them!
Since you listened to Life Is But a Dream, Pete, I wonder if there will be a What's Hot video on it in the next few weeks?
No one like a critic but I think Pete does a great first impression of an album in his reviews. As he listens to an album more than once.
I've been surprised that some prog fans don't like Rush not just because of Geddy's voice but because they're not English.
So now, we're hating on Canadians, huh? Nah, I'm just messing with you. But seriously, that's why? That's total bs! The Canadians I do hate are the Montreal Canadiens and Tronto Maple Leafs because they have the 2 most Stanley Cups of all time, Montreal with 24 and Tronto with 13.
Actually it was an extension of any prog band that wasn't English, didn't like Kansas either.
This is a bit of a weird one. I love prog, but everything else too, from The Damned to Sibelius, Deep Purple to Ornette Coleman. I always saw prog and fusion as a meetting place rather than a series of Chinese walls.
I came at prog, quite recently, from the metal /hard rock end and when I was younger always looked at prog and their fans as a bit geeky and nerdy. Though the bridge to prog for me was Rush but asking me then were Rush prog my answer was of course not, and prog metal wasn't a thing. The pandemic though had me looking for bands like Rush which led me to Dream Theater and then backwards to older prog. Discovered a lot of prog I like in Tull, Genesis, Yes Kansas and others, plus some I still don't ,hi Pink Floyd and ELP, . I do think though as reluctant as I was back in the day to listen to prog there was more reluctance the other way.
Think Rush were the 2 lane bridge from metal to prog with just a cycle lane going the other way :)
Bravo guys! What an episode. I was never really a hard rock or metal fan (with the exception of Rush) from my youth. It was always the Prog giants I listened to. However, as much as I enjoy some current prog such as BBT, Lifesigns,etc, it seems that the genre is calcifying. Particularly when you listen to the likes of the most recent Yes and Tull albums. It's almost like it has become a heritage genre more akin to tribute bands. With thanks primarily to SOT I have spent the last year delving into the metal scene. I totally agree that this is where the true progressive sound is with bands such as Enslaved, Elder, Opeth and many more. If I listen to any Prog now it tends to be from Scandinavia such as the wonderful Avkrvst album. I have been surprised and delighted by just how many obscure and curious sub genres metal has now developed. Many new rabbit holes still to disappear down. A joyous adventure. Can the same actually still be said of the Prog scene?
I think you have close-minded people within both genres. Have you seen "Heavy Metal Parking Lot"? It became pretty embarrassing to love Metal when there were so many close-minded morons making us look bad. We end up having to overcompensate to prove we are intelligent, open-minded individuals that can discuss a wide range of topics. Whether it be music or anything else. Believe me, I understand the frustration.
I think that is the essence of the success of vocal coach channels. If you notice, by far the biggest block of the fanbase is metal fans who gleefully eat up the validation that their heroes are legit good, offered by 'learned' figures. so, a constant need to overcompensate on the musical end as well
I mean I love Bryce Talks Metal, but whenever he does his top 10 metal bands that start with a particular letter, I got criticized by a commenter for putting Eagles and ELO on top bands with the letter E. Bryce's video focuses on metal bands that start with the letter E while I put up my top rock/metal bands with the letter E. Bryce is an example of a stereotypical metalhead that only listens to metal and nothing else, with a few exceptions of hard rock bands. He represents the stereotype of metalheads while I represent the rocker side. Do I love metal? Yes I do, but I never considered myself to be a metalhead. I always called myself a rocker because I love rock, metal, punk and alternative music. I will always consider myself a rocker no matter how much I adore metal.
@@takodabostwick8507 I agree. And his love for Ted Nugent is quite off-putting(though I like the 70's records). Hopefully as he grows older, he will evolve, open his mind, and become more wise when it comes to music among other things.
The new Avenged Sevenfold is awesome. I love Zappa and Mr. Bungle and prog and metal and A7x is already on my favourite list for years. I never considered them as mean stream...
49:25 A great point. We live in an age of extremes, across the board: one can buy a car (stock, from a dealer) with 700 HP; UFC is on ESPN; some of the X-games and Olympic winter sports are bonkers compared to days of yore. And same with music. As kids, we thought "Eruption" was impossible and referred to players as "gods"; now, there are children who play it on TH-cam.
Sorry for over-commenting, but... a lot of the great prog players/composers talk about very diverse inspirations in music while growing up. That's how I was, and still am at age 62. That inspirational diversity doesn't seem to be there when you talk to more exclusively metal heads. I love metal, but I can't even imagine being encapsulated in it.
I think there an aspect of the direction music was taking from the late 60's that is not being addressed. When you think about the societal development there were still traditional values based on religious beliefs and constraints. However the spreading use of mind altering drugs etc. was really making an impact that the older generation were horrified by. They saw this as something that was destructive and even satanic. When you look at how heavy/hard/metal has progressed with the demonic references and anti god themes, it's maybe an argument that stands up. You could say that the metal route was the dark path. On the other hand progressive rock for far more on a light path. Classical music influences with far less dark themes. The older generation/parents were more accepting of that. Personally, my parents frowned on Black Sabbath because of the satanist type imagery. upside down crosses and black wizardry appearance. I still think that many of the hard core old school proggers still have that element ingrained.
I certainly don't think fans of one genre are by default more open-minded than fans of another. There are plenty of closed-minded metalheads, and closed-minded jazz fans too. I've been exposed to both. However, slightly playing devil's advocate here: I'm going to offer a possible explanation as to why metalheads might be more open to progressive music than typical prog fans.
It's because metal has always had something to prove. Some metal fans definitely feel this way, and when i was a teen in the 1990s I felt this too (I really couldn't care less by now, but I understand why it's a thing). What I mean by this is -- look at what was, and often still is, the most mainstream conception of what metal is. Metal is loud and dumb. That's what a lot of people still think, despite Martin's good points about how metal almost incorporates progressive stuff by default nowadays. Metal wasn't seen as virtuoso music by most people except the fans. The fans, in large part, want to demonstrate that metal is not just a bunch of stupid kids banging on instruments the way their parents and "authority" type figures think it is. That is a reason they welcome progressive influences in metal music.
I was talking about this with a younger non-metalhead friend the other day, but how many people who sucked in school and didn't get along well in the educational system still ended up reading books and studying history on their own time because of Iron maiden? I think it's a larger number than some realise. But metal presents this exterior of toughness and rigidity and masculine power above all else that on the surface would seem to repel intelelctual endeavours. It's those of us who really get into the music who see there is something beneath all that -- a beating heart that is romantic and emotional; poetic and redolent of fantastic dreams and otherworldly imaginings.
And then there's the metal player's constant need, started in the 1980s, to push themselves harder. Play faster. Play more complex. Be wilder than the competition. I think that ties into it, too.
I like both prog and metal and I'm not entirely sure why. My thought is it has something to do with Metallica being progressive at times and that was the band that got me into metal. I was probably unknowingly getting into prog at the same time with them and just found other bands that more directly filled that prog area. Weirdly I don't listen to progressive metal outside of those early "inventors" like Rush, Rainbow, and Uriah Heep
Fascinating topic for today.
Since your picks were largely bands from the 70s, I have a different angle on this. My "prog band" that I think a vast quantity of metalheads, especially extreme metalheads like, is ....Goblin.
The reason for this is that, while I do know a few exceptions, the vast majority of metalheads I've ever met love horror in some capacity. Especially people in the death metal scene love horror movies, particualrly the underground ones from the 70s and 80s, and Italian horror, specifically. Dawn of the Dead, definitely. I got introduced to Goblin by a metalhead, not a prog fan (although he loved Uriah Heep and Camel as well as it turned out). And that makes perfect sense to me. In Argento's 1985 film Phenomena, you can hear the music of Goblin alongside that of Iron Maiden and Motorhead, and we all love this meeting.
Great example!
I initially thought this was making a genuine observation, and was ready to counter the idea metal fans are open minded about all other genres, which is patently, demonstrably ludicrous, as anyone commenting on FB group/pages can attest.
Clearly now watching this it is clearly about the crossover of progmetal genres, and can concede many prog fans don't take well to too much metal or death metal etc being labelled as prog/progressive. Anyone in UK who buys Prog magazine will be aware of much resistance to the many bands who would feature on the free CD that used to accompany the magazine, as well as a mindeset often stuck in 1973/74
I would contest the first observations made re Hawkwind which has no real evidence to support it, so I would counter with my own anecdotal evidence growing up, where it was prog fans who were into Hawkwind, regardless of time signatures etc. Given the general hippiness, lefty politics, pot/LSD culture around the band, that was way more in tune with prog fan mindset of the day, and the spaciness tied in with the evolving electronic music scene. Hawkwind may have grown heavier for a period entering NWOBM times, but I'm not sure that's enough to advance the theory more metalheads are more open-minded to them than prog fans. Anyone who still catches them live would be unable to make that definitive judgement base on audience demographics
So while disputing this assertion by Martin, there's no doubting his observation modern musicians have moved on significantly from the 'old' guys. Which is all the more reason for people to invest time in newer bands. Like movie adaptations of revered books, the old albums are always going to be there. There are so many great bands out there now that do deserve our attention and support