Rust Removal - Electrolysis vs. Vinegar
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.ค. 2016
- In this 2 part video, I explore the advantages & disadvantages of 2 rust removal procedures.
Search youtube for my other rust removal videos-- "electrolysis vinegar tubalcain". THANKS FOR WATCHING!
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#rustremoval#electrolysis#evaporust#molassesrust removal - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
the black color is not caused by "carbon" it is Fe3O4 a black version of iron oxide. The electrolysis does not remove the rust. It converts Fe2O3, the red version of iron oxide called rust, into black Fe3O4. Fe3O4 does not continue to rust if soaked with oil. So it could be left on. Or it can be removed by tedious scrubbing to uncover the bare metal. But when the scrubbing is done why not do it on the rust directly and skip the electrolysis? Why use the electrolysis at all? There is one reason: vinegar and all other methods remove metal but electrolysis adds metal from the anodes to the work slightly healing the corrosion losses. Therefore electrolysis is the better choice for restoring toleranced, machined surfaces. For everything else use any available method you like best.
Exactly! ;-)
I guess yes,
if Fe3O4 does not cover the entire surface and
if you degrease and dry it and have not oiled it before.
For painting over it vinegar (or sand blasting) is probably the better process because it etches off any oxide layer also of the raw metal. If you dry it and paint it within hours after etching (or sand blasting) the paint will adhere excellently. If you wait longer the etched metal will be covered by a new oxide layer and you loose some of the advantage of etching. A cheap but effective alternative to sand blasting is also to scrub the derusted surface with the good old abrasive soapy powder (Ajax or similar). Rinse, dry, paint over within hours. A good paint preparation test is to sprinkle droplets of water on the surface. If it spreads the surface is ready to paint (when dry again) if there are water pearls it is not ready.
Direct current flow only goes in one direction. From negative, to positive. Yup, old Ben guessed wrong. So how does the process, "adds metal from the anodes to the work slightly healing the corrosion losses"? Electrolytic rust removal is a plating process. Where you deposit the rust of your work piece onto your sacrificial anodes. There is no material going in the other direction whatsoever.
In the wires there are electrons (always negatively charged) being transported (actually gaps between electrons but that is another story) and in direct current you are right that they go only in one direction. As far as I understand it there is no rust deposited from the work piece to the anodes. There are iron ions transported from the anodes to the work piece. And the flow direction of the iron ions depends on the polarity of those ions. There can be positively and negatively charged ions running in opposite directions constituting the same current direction. The rust on the anodes is created by the corrosive basic water solution. I am not sure whether the current plays a role in the corrosion on the anode. The highly reactive iron ions arriving at the work piece partially react with the oxygen of the Fe2O3 and convert it to Fe3O4 which contains a higher percentage of iron than Fe2O3. The other part of the iron ions are added to the surface of the bare metal which is similar to usual plating. I am happy to be corrected if my understanding is wrong.
rol eic
As I understand it electrolytic rust removal is simply metal plating in reverse. The rust gets removed from the cathode, plated onto the sacrificial anodes. Well, a lot of it ends up on the bottom of the bucket you're using too. But as long as it is off the work piece no one cares.
As far as where the black sludge on the work comes from I don't know. Or again much care. I do tend to remove it periodically whenever I run the process. As it seems to impede the cleaning action.
Mr. Pete, I've only seen just a few of your Videos. But being the kind of person who likes to work in the home shop (when I have one ) I think it would be fun to work with you on things like this. My Grandfather always taught me to be curious about things, and always said...." If you don't learn something new everyday, it was a wasted day." I am now 56, and thanks to my Grandfather, I've spent my life Tinkering and Learning all I can. Keep up the Good work, and have fun doing it.
Great video, I must say I actually prefer the electrolysis version better. As for what happened to the rust in the vinegar, it is still there, by the reaction, you created Iron Acetate. If you neutralize the vinegar with the baking soda, the rust will precipitate out as Iron (iii) Oxide.
Mr. Pete, the US Government should be paying you for the educational videos which you produce!!! The content of your work is superb. I say this in the context of having been in the Scottish Education System for almost 40years. I would consider it a privilege to 'back to school' with you as a workshop teacher/physics/chemistry master!!!!! Many thanks for sharing your wealth of knowledge young man. Kindest regards. Joe.
Thanks-wish they would
I think these videos are great. Just remeber the Government is in the business of dumbing down the public not education.
Another very useful video, and the reader comments were great in terms of explaining what the actual reaction is and why it produces the black material. 👍
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Excellent demonstration Mr Pete, and not the result I expected from part 1 where the washing soda electrolysis was impressively vigorous. Regarding the black coating - it's not carbon, it's ferrous iron oxide (FeO) one of the two common oxides of iron (the other being ferric iron oxide - Fe2O3 - the orange form we see in rust). The black ferrous oxide is soluble in acid so a quick dip in the vinegar bath might well bring it to clean metal quickly.
Thank you
Hello Mr. Pete, i use the vinegar often, but I want to caution you, do not leave machine tools ( for example: 5 C collets) in for an extended period. Vinegar removes a lot of metal, especially if left for a week( don't ask me how I know this). I have found it effective to put rusty parts in vinegar for a few hours, wipe them off and then put in Evaporust, where you do not worry about eating the mental. This procedure works well and saves the cost of wasting Evaporust on dirty, overly rusty parts. Thanks Jim Murphy
Try soaking the "electrolysis" tool in vinegar now to see it the same finish is achieved.
We've done electrolysis ourselves. The most important thing, after you've cleaned the black off, is to OIL the surface completely, or else the rust will come back very red and very fast.
I've used both methods on railroad spikes as a test. Electrolysis does not eat into the surface of the spike like vinegar does. The spikes that go through electrolysis can be cleaned up to look like new, while the spikes from the vinegar bath are too rough and pitted to maintain their original appearance.
The vinegar turns the rust into iron ethanoate salts which are soluble. This is why you don't see much rust in the solution. I would think the quickest way to de-rust an item is to use electrolysis for 2-3 hours to remove the majority of the rust and then vinegar over night to get the matt finish you like.
I'm a long time user of electrolysis and love it but it does have some drawbacks like trying to clean multiple jobs at a time. Things that I have learnt are clean your anodes daily, use HEAVY wire between anodes. Just hit em with the pressure cleaner is often enough. Drawing big amperage is good as it means your anodes are working well, the more amps the better.
I have never used any other method so thats why I am here,, to learn about vinegar and molasses for multiple small jobs. Thanks mate.
Thank you for the tips
The black is black oxide. It's actually a corrosion prevented and whereas it's not as pretty looking as the vinegar one it's functionally a better finish.
Very interesting, thanks for sharing Mr. Pete! I'm with you, the vinegar piece looks much better.
I thoroughly enjoyed this video thank you for sharing.
I live in an environment where you can watch metal rust, so saying that, I use both methods, I have 2 5 gallon buckets (Electrolysis) for the bigger parts and a 1 gal (Vinegar) for the smalls. Anything that comes out of the big tanks get parkerized!
I run my two tanks on 6VDC, there are for large 6VDC batteries, I charge them during the day and let them work there magic at night, after a few days I remove the parts and Scotch-brite them then prep an parkerize them.
One complaint about Electrolysis is the mess and the need to deal with the water/sludge, not an issue, use Carbon rod stock, the water stays clean, I have been using my rods for 6 month and there in need of replacement, 4 rods $5 each Amazon. just once a week you need to pour off the water into a clean container and depose metal/rust that collect in the bottom (it starts to short out the rods to the work), metal cross bar, and I hang the work on copper household wire.
I do use a $100 DI water filter and mix the Soda to water 1cup to 2 gallons, I get a better mixing with the filtered water.
I have done everything from my tool table tops, 1-2-3 blocks, sine-vise, to my insert screw bits, I am currently thinking about doing my compound and cross slide on the lathe.
Don't really like Vinegar, but I am not going to hook up every Little part to the Electrolysis tank.
Well there is my two cents!
OK for us dummies, what is parkerizing?
I used Evaporust on a few handplanes and it works well. I also used it on some old japanese handplane irons, and while it removed the rust, it also removed the patina the metal had developed over time.
Great comparison. I have to admit that I prefer the patina of the electrolysis/wire brush, but it sure is a lot of work!
Also try the electrolysis with the vinegar to jump start the action. I took fifty year old traps and used vinegar took took them to the car wash and blasted them off. Mostly came out clean as a whistle!
Very interesting video. Thank you for taking the time to do it
I really like using vinagar for rust. Much quicker and easy. Thanks for your videos enjoy them.
Thanks for another great video. Rust is something that many hobby machinist have to deal with. I would love to see evaporust vs a cheap alternative such vinegar or molasses. evaporust is my go to solution.
Have you considered that the two items are of different materials? thanks.
Thanks for this straight forward, down to earth video that we non-chemists can understand. I think both processes work well, but for a motorcycle tank I think I would go with electrolysis, because it doesn't rust again after the process.
Hi Mr Pete,Very educational, I Like it a lot. keep them coming. Regards, Ted
Mr pete the black color is because the reaction of the washing soda that tend to black the metals something similar to black oxide process I working in a black oxide company and is kind of similar process that's why you get the black color now for future projects if you want it to make some parts black all you have to do is putting it in that bucket and then oil it and you got your self a black oxide part great video and thanks for shearing this great knowledge.
I've used cider vinegar, electrolysis, and evaporust on motorcycle tanks before. Electrolysis is my preferred method for tanks. Evaporust is too temperature sensitive. Directions say above 68° but it didn't work well until I put a fish tank heater set to 80°. I'd love to see molasses tested. Love your videos Mr. Pete! If your doing Evaporust video I've got some to donate and live in nwburbs.
Interesting to me that you prefer the vinegar result, I much prefer the appearance of the electrolysis piece.
agreed. can't say i like the vinegar look in the least. and it begs the question: what happened to the rust in the vinegar solution?
Electrolysis dont do anything to steel, it only remove rust. It's a safer process than any acid. But you have to know what you want here the piece is pitted because the rust has made her journey into the metal. The vinegar which is just a really slow acid just didnt remove all the rust. You can use a rust converter I guess for vinegar before painting or a filler resine on the electrolysed part.
Remember he used a wire wheel on the electrolysis piece afterward. If he had done the same with the vinegar piece, I think it would have looked the same.
nice series as always!
Thanks for all you do .
Very entertaining and educational keep up the good work
Thanks for taking time to do this
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Great videos, thank you, love the pointy shoe comment.
Has anyone ever told you , you sound like Jimmy Stewart ? And I mean that in a kind way He was one of my favorite film stars.
Yes--many have. I loved Jimmy
I have an old rifle 243 cal Remington that was in a forest fire , flash fire and its rusted which would you use to take the surface rust off also inside the barrel ? im going to subscribe just so I can listen to you talk. I loved jimmy as well.
I was wondering who it was, thankyou. A wonderful voice to listen too even for us Brits
I was thinking the same thing!
vinegar looks the best bet and can be used a few times good vid,thanks mr pete.
I enjoy all your videos. I have been trying the vinegar with some success ,don't care for the black it produces. Look forward to more comparrisons.
Wow someone has good ears I don't hear them but I do live in the Country and that's nothing new to me lol. I'm impressed with the results thank you for making this video it has saved me the time from doing it myself
We used Muriatic Acid successfully on an old logging chain, love what you do!
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Very instructive, I appreciate the information
Thanks
Thanks Mr. Pete. Very interesting video!
Thanks
I have used the electrolysis before and I found a quick pickling would remove the blackness. I was using muriatic acid to do this. It did a nice job of brightening the finish. Of course it must be neutralized afterwards.
All the best!
Mike
Thanks for sharing sir... excellent video as always......
Great video, very useful thank you!
I'm impressed that BREXIT got mentioned on the front page of the Chicago News. Anyway Jimmy Stewart, keep up the good work :-)
I have just watched this ,what a great video.
I refurbish hand tools and just started experimenting with electrolysis.
Overall due to lack of space I find using vineger (mixed with salt) much simpler.
I can leave it tucked away out side with cover over and it cooks away just fine.
Just subscribed to your channel.
Best wishes from Cornwall England!!!!!!
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As I commented before, electrolysis first then rinse with vinegar for best results. Slightly wire brush or scrub with cloth when rinsing with vinegar. Final rinse with water and baking soda solution. That's what I have found works the the best.
Very interesting comparison. As far as disposing of the vinegar goes, it is poured down the drain every day. However it also makes a good Herbicide when you add a little bit of orange oil and soap to it. So don't throw it out on your grass. As far as that one wrench that appeared to be used as a hammer goes, it may have been used as a tent sake, or something similar.
looking forward to your next video. Very educational.
Work smarter not harder, and stay safe.
Joe.
wagon wheel nut wrench,, old old old school tool
I've had such good results with Evaporust; I'm really interested in a comparison with that against others: most notably vinegar. Nice video, Mr. Pete!
You can save that vinegar to help clean drain clogs along with a little backing soda.
es ist FANTASTISCH !!
Very useful research you present in your marvelous video. 👍👍👍; I'm really interested in a comparison with Evaporust against vinegar.
I'd be interested in other video comparing molasses & that other stuff you mentioned! I've got no experience w/rust removal like these meathods. I've always use wire wheels, sandpaper, emery paper, or Navy Jelly..
I never knew that a "doubletree" was a device for tying two horses together! Hilton doesn't help matters with their 2 tree symbol for their hotel. Thanks for the video.
THANK YOU...for sharing.
MrPete You sound like Jimmy Stewart. Loving your video, Thank You.
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Just starting on my electrolysis tank. I like the black/darker finish actually as it makes the object look older!
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Sell the vinegar to Olive Garden to use on their salads, problem solved. I think I will just stick to using vinegar for corrosion removal. Last year I used it on some brass regulators I got at Sears back in the 1970's and it worked very well. Cleaned the torches with it too. Keep on keeping on.
I'm a huge fan of your videos. Keep up the great work. I've heard about adding salt to the vinegar for quicker results. Does anyone have any experience with that? Or know why it may be beneficial? Salt is normally the enemy where rust is concerned.
Great video
Glad I went with the vinegar!
The bubbles from electrolysis are fun to pop with a lighter. they are filled with hydrogen and make a neat snapping sound. It's not dangerous because since the hydrogen is lighter than air the already popped bubbles just dissipate
Over cleaner/Lye/Sodium Hydroxide works well also, including gunk/grease (engine blocks). Works very quick, but you need to contend with it's high ph (burns skin) and odor.
I have found that adding a good amount of salt to the vinegar speeds up the process. Also I use 20% strength vinegar (usually here in the UK brown malt vinegar is no more than a 5% solution. The 29% stuff is used as a herbicide in horticulture over here. You can of course then go on to use electrolysis with the vinegar and boy does that work? Stinks like hell but you can't have everything lol
thanks Mr Pete
Good video!
Great video - thanks for taking the time to make and post it ! If you have more than rust (example: a BBQ grill that is very greasy), would one of these methods work better than the other?
the debris stays on the part with the vinegar until you rinse it off Do a control test with A zinc anode and then try one by reversing the polarity !! Exciting stuff!
Tried this with an exhaust manifold. took 25 gallons of water to cover it has I could not lay it down in the container I had. 1 TSB baking soda per gallon. I had power wire brushed most of the rust, but lots of places I could get into, and lots of pitting that was hard to get.
Less than 6 hrs at 1-2 amps, and already a big difference. Turned both pieces around, will leave overnight. I am only using 1 anode, just a hunk or rusty steel. Using galvanized wire for leads, basically fence/telephone wire. Power wire brushing/scraping most of the rust off first seems to speed things up to a the hard to get at rust. Will report back
Thanks for the great video. Trying something else in vinegar, but I think parts to oily to get a good reaction. Will have to wipe off and try again.
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Thanks you gave me a little giggle !!
you could do a nice thermite weld demonstration with all that rust you acquired from the electrolysis, you produced quite a lot of it
I can't help but wonder what finish you'd get if you did the electrolysis bit FOLLOWED by a 12 hour (or so) soak in vinegar? Would the vinegar remove the black iron oxide coating?
Likeed your presentation
iron has different oxidation ways (~available electrons). one yields red oxide (rust), another black oxide.
You know, the one wrench you cleaned with the electrolysis looks like a cast iron skillet when I clean it with salt/baking soda and season it. I wonder if it would turn black if you heat seasoned it with oil/lard. I think there might have been less damage to the tool with the electrolysis than the vinegar one which is why it is still so shiny.
I've had great results by adding a couple or tablespoons of salt in my vinegar solution for rust removal
I'm wondering if the vinegar worked better because you are cleaning wrought iron vs. steel. The vinegar is dissolving enough material to free all of the rust along with it? I am just learning electrolysis and haven't put any wrought through it yet
I've found that the surface is much better better if you run the electrolysis for a much shorter time. I normally run it for an hour or so and then start checking. That way you can stop before the Fe3O4 starts to form. I then wash it in hot soapy water and scrub with very fine steel wool. Obviously if the rust is really heavy this procedure may not work.
I think what the EPA does with toxic materials is just dump them in the river.
No more apple cider for you buddy.......
I was wondering if the longer wrench was made of wrought iron and the shorter one of steel. The silicates in wrought iron could have caused it to react differently in electrolysis than steel would.
Could it be different metal composition? The darker one looks a lot more porous .
The etching of iron by vinegar was interesting. Iron(0) really should not complex with acetate. It seems to me that the rust dissolves to form soluble Iron(III)acetate and assorted complexes and then the dissolved oxygen acts on the iron.
What if you add a small amount of reducing agent to the solution? Something like sodium thiosulfate or sodium sulfite should help scavenge the oxygen and help prevent etching of the cleaned iron surface.
I have a little forge. I agree it looks like a forge weld. The bar was split and the flat bar was put in the split and and forged over. The smaller one looks to have a cold shut in it. They are sort of rough looking and I wouldn’t let them go out of the shop looking like that, but I guess they worked well enough for all these years.
Thanks
I use vinegar, it's inexpensive and I pour it back in bottle for next use. As some have mentioned, adding salt speeds up the process, making it a stronger acid.
defo like the vinegar better nice video
You have James Stewart's voice. Great video!!!
NO! He's Roy D. Mercer!!! Listen up on TH-cam. Google it LOL......
@@USMC-Sniper-0137 ok ok lol
Well, how great, me too i did both long ago, and if you leave the vinegar a week, you get huge amounts of Braun foam, that let loose, wipe yr artefacts and its spotless grey, just let the vinegar work longer, and you ll be amazed, fotograph after 3 days, resp, one week or longer....interesting next video for you? Bob Belgium, thaaanks brother
So it looks like the vinegar was simpler. However, I need to do the inside of the gas tank on my motorcycle. Can't do the wire brush after the vinegar. I'll look to see if you did a video with the Evapo-Rust. Nice videos though !
Mr Pete, the type of metal must have a large influence on the outcome between the two methods you used. I have used electrolysis for many years and feel that process does give a bit more control over the process then any of the other methods, where its really a case of dump it in, cross your fingers and hope it comes out okay the next day!
Very interesting. TWO QUESTIONS: 1) Have you ever used a higher acid vinegar ? I use 45% acid vinegar for killing weeds, and I bet it would work well. 2) What do you think about using vinegar as the electrolysis solution, instead of the Arm & Hammer product?
ive used 98% acetic acid works very fast but flash rusts just as fast.
As a control you could precisely weigh some already clean parts before and after to see whether there is any loss of the base material. My guess would be the vinegar will etch some of the base metal away whereas the electrolysis won't, but that's just a guess.
I'd be interested in seeing molasses. It seems like it would be more expensive, but as I'm thinking about it and how sticky it is you might be able to just paint some on instead of soaking it in a full tank of the stuff.
I'd label that bottle of used vinegar to ensure it never ends up in my salad, or better yet, toss it out.
Thanjs,I like vinegar but add salt also seems to speed up and removes mill scale also. would like to see evaporator rust comparison and molasses if you care too try
Some say adding a lemon and salt to the vinegar works wonders.
I definitely prefer electrolosys, since once it’s done, the part won’t rust anymore. I also like the dar gray hammered look of a piece treated with electrolosys.
But it makes me wonder, why did my battery charger stop working last time...
Could it be that I put too much washing soda in the water?
I love your videos btw!(I’m from East-Europe)
Wondering if pickle juice or other canning brine would work just as good as the distilled white vinegar
I like the vinegar, easy and cheap
Hey Tubalcain what oil is good to prevent rust from showing up? I heard WD-40 but I'm not so sure for the long term. What do you think?
you're very passive about last nights homicides, but mentioning crickets is where you draw the line..lol
Ok there is another method using sea salt and vinegar solution as eltrolitic solution as 10 Amos. Cut the process to 2 hrs for a heavily corroded and flakey railroad spike. No black ferrous oxide was left. I wonder if going acidic vs base had something to do with it or because of the shorter process using 10 Amos allowed for closer monitoring to remove it from solution?
Now if i were to paint I'd hit it with a brush or sand paper a little then spray with a ospho for the black. For the vinegar that was flash rusting, first, NO SUNLIGHT that accelerates flash rusting. SECOND from rinse right to ospho rust neutralizer. Follow recommendations for painting from there. Remember oxidation accelerates with exposure to air and energy. Keep it wet and work quickly to get neutralized.
BtW I had a media blasting shop for 8 years and blasting is expensive dirty work that can be damaging if overdone. Small blast cabinets are great only if you are not exposing yourself to any dust. Vacuum exhaust should be heppa filtered out side. And wearing an N 95 mask for precaution is smart.
Why would 12 amp's be too high? I have two battery one at 12 amp's and
the other at 40 amp? just wondering. When the steel or iron turns black
is the passivization.
Thanks for the experiment and sharing the results. I would think the formulation of the steel/Iron might have some effect on the results. I would positively be interested in the evaporust test comparison. As I understand the chelation process evaporust is not as destructive to the metal as a mild acid. I had restored some old tools using the vinegar method but the rough finished surface and black surface layer are sometimes undesirable. ( think steel rule/ combination square ) . A final question for all what is the least destructive method of removing the black layer afterward, is there another chemical process?
No I have no answer for that
Love the history
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