“Pulling guard in the street will get you killed”- my 1st degree black belt bjj instructor. I agree with you, Chadi. The stand up game is greatly overlooked by my fellow BJJ practitioners. Knowing how to fight on the ground is important, but it’s not everything.
Very true. About a decade ago I witnessed a brutal street fight where it started with a few strikes but quickly went to the ground (as it so often does.) 1 guy was on his back & he must of had some basic bjj experience. He hugged the other guy close bringing him into a closed guard to stop the other who started striking down on him. Other guy, either having a background in greco-roman wrestling or out of pure instinct, stood up lifting the other guy (who didn't let go of guard) & slammed him head 1st into concrete. Immediately unconscious. If there weren't others there watching guy could of done whatever to the unconscious one. Or what if he pulled a knife or had his boys jump in & stomp the guy out. In street fight if you're defending you're not winning. Aggressiveness, speed & violence of action are key. If you're going to fight off your back you better be entering into submissions immediately or moving into a dominant position, on constant offense.
Oda was seriously ahead of his time. These technique videos were filmed in 1918, and some of them weren't seen in bjj until 2010s. That's almost a 100 year later!
@@ilyaolshanetskiy7421 Because he realized that modern fighting required an emphasis on ground work LONG before Japan and the GLOBAL martial arts community did. Just because he made them standard doesn't mean they were emphasized before him. He realized that outside of war, the ground isn't death, but a new phase of the fight. Kano did not realize that, and it wasn't until the 90s that the idea really took the global martial arts community by storm. That is ahead of his time.
You’re quite right. Someone once said “ I’m not going to hit you with my fists or elbows I’m going to hit you with the whole earth “ Cross training is the key nowadays
Force is dispersed when you hit a large object, and concentrated when a small object like an elbow hits you. From a judoka, jitsuka, karateka, and Muay Thai fighter...
Imho, combining Nage Waza and Ne Waza is the best choice. But of course, every fight starts standing and someone must first know how to throwdown/takedown an opponent and then learn some ground grappling. The ground is the last place you wanna be in a real situation. You lose mobility, you cannot fight more than one opponent and you cannot escape easily. Of course, if you end up on the ground the ground grappling knowledge is a must, but in order to help you stand up and escape and not stay there and fight, unless you are pressed down from your opponent and you must apply a technique to create an opening and get out (armbar, choke etc). I think Dr.Kano had this in his mind where he was a promoter of the stand up fighting firstly, and I think he was right. Also, having seen a video of John Danaher ("feet to floor", not all of it), he says that someone must apply specific Judo throws that in case of the person who applies the throw ends up on the ground, doesn't end up having given his back to the opponent. So, John, suggests throws like ankle pick, drop seoi nage and drop tai otoshi, if I remember correctly. The problem (in my opinion) with these drop throws is that they are not applicable in a street situation. Try a drop seoi nage or a drop tai otoshi kneeling on a pavement with speed and see how you're gonna feel the next second (if you don't smash your knees on the pavement). So, again, classic Judo stand up throws are a treasure.Thank you.
Hi I'm sure Danaher advised against drop Seoi-Nage in his feet-to-floor discussion. What he is also concerned about is the 'over rotation' that competition judoka use to help throw someone more on their back, but that is a habit that you can easily get rid of..
U are right bro,u spoke my mind,kneeling on the street would break your knee,u may not feel it instantly due to adrenaline rush,but after settling home and regaining peace from the fight, you just wanna cry from the knee cap pains,am a living witness also,just do standing uchi mata,taio,seio nage and osoto gari, its even way easier than dropping throws
Ending up on the ground is the only place you want to be if BJJ is your strength. Doesn't mean you want to be on your back, but if you are skilled, you won't be.
From my experience of fighting in BJJ tournaments years ago as I was a Judo practitioner I always got the takedown and side control to score the points. My opponent always had to play catch up and all I had to do is either stall for the rest of the match or submit them when they made a mistake. The stand up game isn't studied enough in BJJ so if you are a good Judoka you score the takedown and position at the lower levels of white and blue belt. On the other hand a blue belt BJJ practitioner can be much more technical and dangerous on the ground to a brown belt Judoka as blue belt in BJJ has more experience on the ground than a brown belt Judoka, hence only good black belts want to spar with the BJJ practitioner and everyone else stays away. Personally I love both and enjoyed practicing both years ago.
As a 13y wrestler before bjj that's how it worked for me too. I was winning meets in the white belt division after just a couple months of bjj, I basically just learned to avoid submissions and to pass guard, and my superior takedowns and top control basically won the matches for me. I got a blue belt after just six months mostly because of my wrestling, since then it's been seven years and I'm a purple belt, so it's not like I just shot through the ranks, but I have had an advantage from the beginning by haveing many years of takedown practice before starting bjj.
Years ago when I was fighting, many of the Judokas did not have sufficient ground skills as the focus was on Olympic style competition. Hence the BJJ reputation for being able to beat them. However, those that came from the old school Judo teachings, did have the ground skills and beat the BJJ people in non BJJ rules competition, many times. The wrestlers did well also. Cross training is the key to being a complete competitor or warrior. I'm glad this is much more prevalent today as the level of grappling skills has increased in most cases ( except for some of the rule sets😔😡).
I never had a problem with fighting bjj fighters.along with normal Kodokan judo I was taught the "Oda method" it was called Budokukai style at Hayashi dojo years before i ever heard of BJJ. My teacher learned judo in Washington state at a United states prison camp for Japanese during ww2 he called judo "judo-jujutsu" the school he opened in Texas in 1955 "The Zen Bujutsukan" or "Hayashi's dojo" is still around and run by his son and there are several bujutsukan dojo in Mexico run by Hayashi students. The school is still very effective vs BJJ.
@@ReisterJP that's very interesting. Hayashi style is another variant of Judo just like BJJ is. I find that Kodokan Judo emphasizes stand up more and BJJ emphasizes the ground so training both gave me an advantage in the opposite sport at a lower rank. I'd be interested in learning more about Hayashi Zen Bujutsukan
The guard on the street is for when you end up on the bottom position against your will, for instance if you are attacked by surprise or if you are fighting a bigger opponent and he takes you down, I’ve never heard a BJJ practitioner recommend pulling guard as a primary move in a street fight.
Exactly! And open guard techniques are very effective against someone on their feet if you've ended up on your back. If they are trying to kick or punch you, you will have them too off balance to strike, and then bang, bang, bang, they are on their back with you on top and them wondering how the hell did that happen. (Or you've already busted their knee from a heel hook, and then they are wondering how the hell they went from being about to kick the crap out of someone, to being on the ground with a busted knee. One of the sweet things about BJJ is you can choose your level of savage according to the situation.)
Nice one. Enjoyed this. For the most part I’d say Judo as a base is definitely a great base to pick. Judokas are generally a lot more tougher and the BJJ players can be pretty lazy and chilled but they’re also more creative imo. Both have their place and I personally am glad that Oda chose to develop newaza as those clips showed some beautiful techniques we see today in BJJ. Thanks for sharing
Oda was the first guy to publicly criticize Kano since the Kodokan was launched He was being commended for which created the opportunity for vigorous debate to take place Without taking Kano's statements as absolutes After a bit, another Kosen guy Sasaki fully defended Newaza-oriented Judo in terms of Judo as a sport, Positioning Kano's emphasis on Tachiwaza as convention He also made it clear that university Judo students wouldn't bow down to the Kodokan
I agree with you, as a BJJ practionner I had street confrontations and what save me was my seoi nage to slam my agressors into the canvas or my leg takedowns to tackle them. I only use once my ground skills against a troublesome guy in a nightclub
@@Chadi yes! I am, thanks to BJJ I rediscover my interest for judo and I even got graduated brown belt, i practice countless of time seoi nage, taei otoshi, and leg sweeps, and dynamic transitions from standup to ground game and reverse
You make good points Chadi. But when I was a purple belt in Bjj I started doing judo and I would easily submit all the judo black belts and that was even after they told me I was not allowed to do leg locks. And I’ll admit I could not throw the black belts but i easily took them down with a double leg takedown. But I enjoyed learning the throws except the sacrifice throws.
You need to know how to fight from the ground and make it advantageous just in case you find yourself in that situation. Saying that I’ll also say you should not willingly go to the ground, by doing so you are not only getting into a very dangerous situation but also limiting the possibility of disengaging and leave... Remember competitions take place on soft mats giving a false sense of newaza superiority...
Oda and Kano were right in different ways. As for Kosen Judo, this was meant for preventing students from getting seriously injured. However, Nage waza is far better when street fighting.
@@hattorihaso2579 many bjj practitioners,( me being one) forget standing game and the importance of it, and the fact that a fight can end from standing.
@@selectjed1 well wrestling is not bad, but judo has also somethings good on its own , Grapling game is great and each part of it gives you useful things for your game, you shouldn't diss things it's better to open yourself into the knowledge to fill up your game .
🌊Trained with Relson gracie(Rodrigo Gracies father) in Newport Beach his Jiu Jitsu system is more Kanō judo than Kosen style. After 2 years I went to Cleber Luciano(Rickson Gracie black belt (original mat rat in Torrance).2 years later I won King of the Cage. In my opinion hands are what’s missing-lost is the importance of (bridging the gap). Story of Olsen(Terrible Swede), this man was a true terror, killed three men in sanctioned fights with his brutal style of rough and Tumble(look it up), Story goes he fights a boxer enters for a double leg(over confident) and gets knocked cold(out for 5 minutes).Back then rules were best of 3 falls(mostly) so he recovers and literally destroys the guy.Frank Gotch beats Olsen when Olsens older but even though he weighed 30-40 pounds more than Olsen he wanted no part of this guy when he was younger. Watched an interview with Gotch in where he calls Lou Thez a so so wrestler but talks about this Olsen guy like he was a God. Jiu Jitsu learn how to western style box jab,double jab,triple jab much more effective than drop level and hope you don’t get knee’d or knocked out.Used to hang out with Lions den guys Vernon White,Pete Williams,Tony Galindo only things they worried about was loop chokes and leg locks they haven’t seen.Most jitz schools don’t work Ashi garami because of potential for devastating injury and lawsuits. If you weigh 160 pounds and you have a 250 lb man who wants to knock you out good luck with your Tachi waza best chance is to hopefully bridge gap without getting your clock cleaned and BODY LOCK from there cook that fat f**k and work to the reverse heel and sit back and watch a monster cry. 🌊
At the end of the day,self defense,for most people, is much more important than stylistic interpretations. Competition is great for “pressure “ testing in my opinion. In the end ,life and death situations are the reason most people train for.
Given that there are many motivated, talented, disciplined fighters training, what are the odds you can be the best at throws, takedowns, transitions, pins, chokes, AND arm locks? Unlikely to be the best at all of them, because motivated, talented, disciplined people will find a way to be better at one of the facets. You have to decide what you are preparing for, choose a strategy for those circumstances, and balance your time to gain the needed skills to carry out your strategy.
ChadI, what do you think the ratio of stand up to ground emphasis was in the Kodokan during kanos time and as a result of Odas influence on the Kodokan?
Chadi, obviously Kano was a brilliant teacher and innovator, but do you have any stories or information about him as a fighter ? I only know the story of him using kata garuma to over come a larger opponent, and any challengers were met by his top students.
There's a story where he did Randori in front of the U.S. President and the President wanted to take it to the U.S., that story was even before the Kodokan
If guard pulling was disallowed every bjj practitioner would have to learn takedowns. However too many people are not comfortable practicing takedowns because they are scared of the gravity if you know what I mean. I did a bit of judo as a child and then a couple of years of aikido in my early thirties, enough to learn how to fall safely. I've been training bjj over the last decade and at 48 yo I have no problem with being thrown while practicing stand up stuff. Love bjj but majority of academies are competition oriented so the old school thing is kinda fading away. Nice videos btw.
Chadi, if you choose judo over BJJ in a fight for practical reasons, then logic would presume you choose Muay Thai (or another striking art) over either. I suggest Muay Thai.
For whatever it’s worth, I’m a Jiu Jitsu black belt and have won many judo matches by throwing techniques… the same throwing techniques that I teach and practice in my BJJ classes.
Haha thank you but it's not about making anyone angry, it's explaining 2 different visions that Kano and Oda had for Judo, but I tend to lean more towards what Kano Thought, cause tachi waza should not be cancelled for the sake of high school trophies.
From my understanding, it seems alot of BJJ guys are bad stand up grapplers, but I'm lucky enough to find a place where people from different grappling backgrounds come, we would exchange knowledge of our arts after class, even my father was wrestler and he would tell me to always try to control our opponent try to always be on the top
This comment is late enough that it may not be noticed, but I wanted to add that if you find yourself in the unfortunate situation of having to fight more than one person at a time (I have, not fun), you definitely don't want to pull guard or be on the ground. I wound up taking my opponent down and went down with him, where I immobilized him. Then I was hit and kicked by his friends. Fortunately, the fight was broken up, but I learned a valuable lesson; hit and run, or throw and run, and don't commit yourself to a relatively immobile position on the ground.
You're no less likely to get hit grabbing lapels as you are on the ground. Of course top game is better, but if you are on bottom you're gonna want to know what to do.
@@Chadi for sure, as a 13year wrestler before starting bjj and as a former MMA fighter, I absolutely advocate getting the takedown and working for top position.
Danaher was describing 90s bjj. In today's BJJ in America there's lots of takedowns and no-gi. In a place like Phoenix arizona where I live, people aren't wearing grips.
Who in his right or even dumb mind would take newaza over nage waza or throwing techniques, am a judo fighter and good on the ground but in street fights u must apply the most meanest and painful standing throws on your attackers, especially uchi mata,taio and seio nage and osoto gari, your throw must be able to knock out, paralyse or kill your attacker,even your newaza is to help u escape ground fighting situation and not stay there,and use wicked kuzushi also,and throw, don't ever think of newaza or proitize it over nage waza
Depending on the country, there are legal ramifications, in France you can't do that, you take them down in a controlled manner that you don't hurt them and then control
BJJ only won the championships it won, it made the fame it did because it was always fighting on top of a ring where taking a fall didn't make any difference. It's soft to fall off, that's it, the comfort zone has arrived. If UFC, MMA and any other competition had been on unprotected ground, BJJ would NEVER have had the success it had... period.
There are male to male attacks, female to female, male to female and female to male. Attacks look different and you have difference in capabilities compared to eachother. Almost half of the planet is female. I am a female myself and the Oda style, even though made for competitive succes, I see it as more realistic for my selfdefense especially when attacked by a male. I saw a video of a female getting dragged into a van, guard pull would come in handy, I'd like to imanari roll my way out of there! I would not call that something a coward would do, more courageous. Also a lot of attacks are not on the street but in homes by people we know. How much is that taken into account in the self defense vs competition discussions?
Exactly, its always some mat jockey that probably has never been in a real fight in their lives, and certainly not under the conditions that women must fight off men, always telling people how they should defend themselves. How about more evidence and less (especially silly sport) based opinion.
Come on, "no" not every real fight stars standing up. What a silly idea and so sport based. Watch real world video footage, lots of people are attacked while sitting down on bus stops or in cars, at the beach or park. How many woman have been assaulted while in there beds after someone climbed through a window, etc etc. So a lot of people stand up and face each other in confronations, but to miss the totality of real life vulnerability and possible positions shows a very poor understanding of the topic. Getting pushed into vertical surfaces is so common I should not have to mention it, and when against that vertical surface with weight against you..most of the principles of 'stand up" change radically and are more similar to ground fighting. The old school BJJ had self-defense techniques for all these positions, sitting on chairs, against walls and of course on the ground because that was the most dangerous but also most common positions.Good , scientific Self-defense is not what we would like it to be, but what statistically happens the most and self defence should be based around that data...not a childish 'wish list" developed by people who have never fought in the real world.
I don't get this narrative that you have to learn how to take someone down in self defense. Taking someone down is not self defense. Its self offense. I'm not a Leo or mma fighter. This narrative is non sense. You slam someone's head o' ground there's high chance of manslaughter conviction. Also who said you can't choke someone out standing? John danaher said his go to move when bouncing was arm drag to rear naked choke. This idea that newaza equals going to ground in street fight is false narrative.
I never said you can't choke someone standing, and I'm not saying do Te guruma and kill them, control the takedown so you limit their options on the ground and negotiate. I did a video specifically on this talking about NOT hurting the aggressor to avoid legal ramifications.
@@Chadi no. I'm not saying you but clearly that's the narrative. If you read comments it's always the standup vs ground argument that if you do bjj and go to ground you'll die. 😂
Damn dude, you are so blind to how biased you are. Seriously, if you're in a self defence situation against someone untrained, then it doesn't matter what you have: Judo, BJJ, wrestling, Muay Thai, whatever, you're going to wipe the floor with them. But if you want to be the most skilled as you can be to handle a trained guy, and/or bigger guys, then you will want ALL of: strike defense (Muay Thai, boxing, etc); take downs (Judo, wrestling, etc); AND ground game (BJJ, etc). And if you live in a warm climate, like I do, where people wear t-shirts almost all year around, if Judo is your game, then you sure better be training a lot of no-gi. How am I so sure of all this? I've three letters for you: UFC. Judo is useful in UFC, but it isn't king. Put a black belt Judo guy against a blue belt BJJ guy, and the Judo guy has a serious problem on his hands. Sure, the Judo guy will get him to ground for sure, but then what? I'll tell you what, you've just entered BJJ territory, and good luck to you. Sure, you might slam him so hard that you win the fight then and there, but if you don't, uh oh. I come to this channel because you have a lot to teach, and it's interesting. It's a brilliant channel, but trying to tell everyone that Judo is king is a sad, delusional, joke. It ceased to be king when it became an Olympic sport, and deemed ne waza and afterthought, sad to say. My journey started because I had someone I needed to deal with. I researched the best and quickest way to learn how to fight effectively, and the answer was a clear and definitive, BJJ. However, the more I trained and learned, I realised that even though BJJ is incredibly effective, it is incomplete. It is king on the ground, but to get there, you first need strike defence so you can close the distance without getting knocked out; and second you need better take downs than most BJJ schools teach. So I added Muay Thai and boxing; and Judo (gi and no-gi) and Wresting classes. These are additions, but I still predominantly train BJJ, as it is clearly king, get them to ground, and you win, end of story. Get to blue belt, you are seriously dangerous; purple belt, you can destroy almost everyone; black belt, you are a god amongst men. Most quit before blue, because it is damn hard work, and you have to be seriously motivated.
Damn dude, Kano wanted people to be effective and confident on their two feet, Oda did ground only. I'm preaching the same. I know i can do muay thai etc. But not everyone wants to live in an MMA camp to have good self defense. I'd say Judo compared to bjj only it's better for street, adapting the clinch is not a deal breaker. You went on a rant without grasping the ideas of the video.
@@Chadi I totally agree with the gist of what you're saying - yes, you need to be effective on your feet AND the ground. But the feet stuff is just about getting to the ground (it's a take down, right?), it's the ground stuff that is actually most effective at controlling the situation, and/or winning the fight. The thing with Oda, is he proved, by winning all the comps, that the ground stuff is king. Kano was right that it is foolish to completely abandon the feet, but he was so blinded by this that he didn't recognise the brilliance and power of what Oda was bringing to ne waza, and Judo in general. Neither modern Judo (which isn't Kano's Judo anyway), nor BJJ are complete as a self defence. The first has too much emphasis on the feet, and the second has too little. The answer, is to train both (plus some striking). Just as the answer to Oda vs Kano, is a combination of both. PS - Let me put it this way, if one guy trains BJJ for 4 years and reaches purple belt, and another guy trains Judo for 8 years, are you confident your Judo guy would beat the BJJ guy in a street fight? My money is on the BJJ guy. If you're still thinking the Judo guy, then what about 4 years BJJ vs 4 years Judo? In that scenario, I'm confident the BJJ guy would utterly wipe the floor with the Judo guy. It doesn't have to be 4 years either, pick a number of years, 1 year, 10 years, it doesn't matter, BJJ every single time. Just as Oda's Judo beat Kano's every single time.
@@Chadi That's a big if, unless you're up against an untrained guy. But if you're up against an untrained guy, it doesn't matter what martial art you train, you will win. If it's a trained guy, such as a BJJ guy, getting a strong decisive take down is a big if. See, in Judo comps, you get strong decisive take downs because that's the whole emphasis of the rule set, and both players are aiming for exactly that. Whereas, in say, submission grappling comps, you very rarely get a takedown that will end the fight, because the take down isn't the end game, and most of those types of take downs expose your back or so on. So yeah, you maybe might get a fight ending throw in against a trained guy, but it's far from a given, and if you don't, uh oh.
“Pulling guard in the street will get you killed”- my 1st degree black belt bjj instructor. I agree with you, Chadi. The stand up game is greatly overlooked by my fellow BJJ practitioners. Knowing how to fight on the ground is important, but it’s not everything.
100%
imagine pulling guard in the streets then some other bloke just steel toed ur temple
@stanly stud think its with the stigma of like belt martial arts, I knowalot of WTF (PTA) guys whp think theyre top notch then suck at kickboxing
We dont overlook it; we are the ones giving or taking judo classes (at least many of us)
Very true. About a decade ago I witnessed a brutal street fight where it started with a few strikes but quickly went to the ground (as it so often does.) 1 guy was on his back & he must of had some basic bjj experience. He hugged the other guy close bringing him into a closed guard to stop the other who started striking down on him. Other guy, either having a background in greco-roman wrestling or out of pure instinct, stood up lifting the other guy (who didn't let go of guard) & slammed him head 1st into concrete. Immediately unconscious.
If there weren't others there watching guy could of done whatever to the unconscious one. Or what if he pulled a knife or had his boys jump in & stomp the guy out. In street fight if you're defending you're not winning. Aggressiveness, speed & violence of action are key. If you're going to fight off your back you better be entering into submissions immediately or moving into a dominant position, on constant offense.
Oda was seriously ahead of his time. These technique videos were filmed in 1918, and some of them weren't seen in bjj until 2010s. That's almost a 100 year later!
Why was he "ahead of his time"? His techniques were probably standard in his school.
@@ilyaolshanetskiy7421 Because he realized that modern fighting required an emphasis on ground work LONG before Japan and the GLOBAL martial arts community did. Just because he made them standard doesn't mean they were emphasized before him. He realized that outside of war, the ground isn't death, but a new phase of the fight. Kano did not realize that, and it wasn't until the 90s that the idea really took the global martial arts community by storm. That is ahead of his time.
You’re quite right. Someone once said “ I’m not going to hit you with my fists or elbows I’m going to hit you with the whole earth “
Cross training is the key nowadays
Indeed
Force is dispersed when you hit a large object, and concentrated when a small object like an elbow hits you. From a judoka, jitsuka, karateka, and Muay Thai fighter...
...but it sounds cool as hell and is in essence true
@@onerider808 Right. So when your head hits the ground it should be no problem then. Force will be dispersed around a 'large object" :)
Imho, combining Nage Waza and Ne Waza is the best choice. But of course, every fight starts standing and someone must first know how to throwdown/takedown an opponent and then learn some ground grappling. The ground is the last place you wanna be in a real situation. You lose mobility, you cannot fight more than one opponent and you cannot escape easily. Of course, if you end up on the ground the ground grappling knowledge is a must, but in order to help you stand up and escape and not stay there and fight, unless you are pressed down from your opponent and you must apply a technique to create an opening and get out (armbar, choke etc). I think Dr.Kano had this in his mind where he was a promoter of the stand up fighting firstly, and I think he was right. Also, having seen a video of John Danaher ("feet to floor", not all of it), he says that someone must apply specific Judo throws that in case of the person who applies the throw ends up on the ground, doesn't end up having given his back to the opponent. So, John, suggests throws like ankle pick, drop seoi nage and drop tai otoshi, if I remember correctly. The problem (in my opinion) with these drop throws is that they are not applicable in a street situation. Try a drop seoi nage or a drop tai otoshi kneeling on a pavement with speed and see how you're gonna feel the next second (if you don't smash your knees on the pavement). So, again, classic Judo stand up throws are a treasure.Thank you.
Agreed! However there are street footage of drop seoi nage where the assailant was out like a light
Hi I'm sure Danaher advised against drop Seoi-Nage in his feet-to-floor discussion. What he is also concerned about is the 'over rotation' that competition judoka use to help throw someone more on their back, but that is a habit that you can easily get rid of..
After many years of wrestling/grappling my knees are not happy with throws, or low shits off the knee even on mats.
U are right bro,u spoke my mind,kneeling on the street would break your knee,u may not feel it instantly due to adrenaline rush,but after settling home and regaining peace from the fight, you just wanna cry from the knee cap pains,am a living witness also,just do standing uchi mata,taio,seio nage and osoto gari, its even way easier than dropping throws
Ending up on the ground is the only place you want to be if BJJ is your strength. Doesn't mean you want to be on your back, but if you are skilled, you won't be.
From my experience of fighting in BJJ tournaments years ago as I was a Judo practitioner I always got the takedown and side control to score the points. My opponent always had to play catch up and all I had to do is either stall for the rest of the match or submit them when they made a mistake. The stand up game isn't studied enough in BJJ so if you are a good Judoka you score the takedown and position at the lower levels of white and blue belt. On the other hand a blue belt BJJ practitioner can be much more technical and dangerous on the ground to a brown belt Judoka as blue belt in BJJ has more experience on the ground than a brown belt Judoka, hence only good black belts want to spar with the BJJ practitioner and everyone else stays away. Personally I love both and enjoyed practicing both years ago.
I love both too, they compliment each other
As a 13y wrestler before bjj that's how it worked for me too. I was winning meets in the white belt division after just a couple months of bjj, I basically just learned to avoid submissions and to pass guard, and my superior takedowns and top control basically won the matches for me. I got a blue belt after just six months mostly because of my wrestling, since then it's been seven years and I'm a purple belt, so it's not like I just shot through the ranks, but I have had an advantage from the beginning by haveing many years of takedown practice before starting bjj.
Years ago when I was fighting, many of the Judokas did not have sufficient ground skills as the focus was on Olympic style competition. Hence the BJJ reputation for being able to beat them. However, those that came from the old school Judo teachings, did have the ground skills and beat the BJJ people in non BJJ rules competition, many times. The wrestlers did well also. Cross training is the key to being a complete competitor or warrior. I'm glad this is much more prevalent today as the level of grappling skills has increased in most cases ( except for some of the rule sets😔😡).
I never had a problem with fighting bjj fighters.along with normal Kodokan judo I was taught the "Oda method" it was called Budokukai style at Hayashi dojo years before i ever heard of BJJ. My teacher learned judo in Washington state at a United states prison camp for Japanese during ww2 he called judo "judo-jujutsu" the school he opened in Texas in 1955 "The Zen Bujutsukan" or "Hayashi's dojo" is still around and run by his son and there are several bujutsukan dojo in Mexico run by Hayashi students. The school is still very effective vs BJJ.
@@ReisterJP that's very interesting. Hayashi style is another variant of Judo just like BJJ is. I find that Kodokan Judo emphasizes stand up more and BJJ emphasizes the ground so training both gave me an advantage in the opposite sport at a lower rank. I'd be interested in learning more about Hayashi Zen Bujutsukan
The guard on the street is for when you end up on the bottom position against your will, for instance if you are attacked by surprise or if you are fighting a bigger opponent and he takes you down, I’ve never heard a BJJ practitioner recommend pulling guard as a primary move in a street fight.
Exactly! And open guard techniques are very effective against someone on their feet if you've ended up on your back. If they are trying to kick or punch you, you will have them too off balance to strike, and then bang, bang, bang, they are on their back with you on top and them wondering how the hell did that happen. (Or you've already busted their knee from a heel hook, and then they are wondering how the hell they went from being about to kick the crap out of someone, to being on the ground with a busted knee. One of the sweet things about BJJ is you can choose your level of savage according to the situation.)
Nice one. Enjoyed this. For the most part I’d say Judo as a base is definitely a great base to pick. Judokas are generally a lot more tougher and the BJJ players can be pretty lazy and chilled but they’re also more creative imo.
Both have their place and I personally am glad that Oda chose to develop newaza as those clips showed some beautiful techniques we see today in BJJ.
Thanks for sharing
Just to clarify, I meant creative on the ground.*
Thank you
Oda was the first guy to publicly criticize Kano since the Kodokan was launched
He was being commended for which created the opportunity for vigorous debate to take place
Without taking Kano's statements as absolutes
After a bit, another Kosen guy Sasaki fully defended Newaza-oriented Judo in terms of Judo as a sport,
Positioning Kano's emphasis on Tachiwaza as convention
He also made it clear that university Judo students wouldn't bow down to the Kodokan
I agree with you, as a BJJ practionner I had street confrontations and what save me was my seoi nage to slam my agressors into the canvas or my leg takedowns to tackle them. I only use once my ground skills against a troublesome guy in a nightclub
100% glad you're safe
@@Chadi yes! I am, thanks to BJJ I rediscover my interest for judo and I even got graduated brown belt, i practice countless of time seoi nage, taei otoshi, and leg sweeps, and dynamic transitions from standup to ground game and reverse
Another wonderful video sensei Chadi, im enjoying all of the insight into the master Judoka.
Thank you so much
You make good points Chadi. But when I was a purple belt in Bjj I started doing judo and I would easily submit all the judo black belts and that was even after they told me I was not allowed to do leg locks. And I’ll admit I could not throw the black belts but i easily took them down with a double leg takedown. But I enjoyed learning the throws except the sacrifice throws.
9:36 Chadi dropping wisdom here.
You need to know how to fight from the ground and make it advantageous just in case you find yourself in that situation. Saying that I’ll also say you should not willingly go to the ground, by doing so you are not only getting into a very dangerous situation but also limiting the possibility of disengaging and leave... Remember competitions take place on soft mats giving a false sense of newaza superiority...
Agreed
I trained for 2 months with okada sensei oda last live in student loved what i learned.I agree stand up first
Thank you Karen
As a police officer Judo is most practical because you a blend of everything. Standing, ground, locks and manipulations.
100%
Oda and Kano were right in different ways. As for Kosen Judo, this was meant for preventing students from getting seriously injured. However, Nage waza is far better when street fighting.
Agreed
@@Chadi Meilleurs vœux du Mexique 😊👍🙏
@@EduardoRodriguez-ks4em Merci🙏🏻
Yep from touchi waza to newaza that's the right order of things . Bjj practitioners sould never forget that.
Why are tou so obsessed by bjj? Of course it gies from standing to ground no shit sherlock
Every fight starts standing
@@hattorihaso2579 many bjj practitioners,( me being one) forget standing game and the importance of it, and the fact that a fight can end from standing.
@@nikolaosmandamandiotis8970 all the top guys in bjj have decent wrestling at this point , having no stand up is nobody's fault but your own
@@selectjed1 well wrestling is not bad, but judo has also somethings good on its own , Grapling game is great and each part of it gives you useful things for your game, you shouldn't diss things it's better to open yourself into the knowledge to fill up your game .
🌊Trained with Relson gracie(Rodrigo Gracies father) in Newport Beach his Jiu Jitsu system is more Kanō judo than Kosen style. After 2 years I went to Cleber Luciano(Rickson Gracie black belt (original mat rat in Torrance).2 years later I won King of the Cage. In my opinion hands are what’s missing-lost is the importance of (bridging the gap). Story of Olsen(Terrible Swede), this man was a true terror, killed three men in sanctioned fights with his brutal style of rough and Tumble(look it up), Story goes he fights a boxer enters for a double leg(over confident) and gets knocked cold(out for 5 minutes).Back then rules were best of 3 falls(mostly) so he recovers and literally destroys the guy.Frank Gotch beats Olsen when Olsens older but even though he weighed 30-40 pounds more than Olsen he wanted no part of this guy when he was younger. Watched an interview with Gotch in where he calls Lou Thez a so so wrestler but talks about this Olsen guy like he was a God. Jiu Jitsu learn how to western style box jab,double jab,triple jab much more effective than drop level and hope you don’t get knee’d or knocked out.Used to hang out with Lions den guys Vernon White,Pete Williams,Tony Galindo only things they worried about was loop chokes and leg locks they haven’t seen.Most jitz schools don’t work Ashi garami because of potential for devastating injury and lawsuits. If you weigh 160 pounds and you have a 250 lb man who wants to knock you out good luck with your Tachi waza best chance is to hopefully bridge gap without getting your clock cleaned and BODY LOCK from there cook that fat f**k and work to the reverse heel and sit back and watch a monster cry. 🌊
That last paragraph painted a very vivid image in my head, sure ground work has it's place but stand up first in my opinion
reylson is rodrigos father,not relson and cleber isnt riscksons black belt
At the end of the day,self defense,for most people, is much more important than stylistic interpretations.
Competition is great for “pressure “ testing in my opinion.
In the end ,life and death situations are the reason most people train for.
Agreed
Well said
Thank you Rashid
Given that there are many motivated, talented, disciplined fighters training, what are the odds you can be the best at throws, takedowns, transitions, pins, chokes, AND arm locks? Unlikely to be the best at all of them, because motivated, talented, disciplined people will find a way to be better at one of the facets. You have to decide what you are preparing for, choose a strategy for those circumstances, and balance your time to gain the needed skills to carry out your strategy.
Great video - what books are you reading concerning the feud between Kano and Oda?
Asahi shimbun
Oda's book "Judo in the ground"
And if interested follow @kosenjudo01 on instagram they post about old stories with sources cited.
Read the title as “The origins of the feud between the stand users” lololol
Hahaha
ORA ORA intensifies
Chadi you cool bro
Yes first!
Congratulations 🥇
ChadI, what do you think the ratio of stand up to ground emphasis was in the Kodokan during kanos time and as a result of Odas influence on the Kodokan?
Jab-jab-jab eliminates grab-grab-grab
Jab = seoi nage, Sasae, giza guruma and tomoe nage.
Chadi, obviously Kano was a brilliant teacher and innovator, but do you have any stories or information about him as a fighter ? I only know the story of him using kata garuma to over come a larger opponent, and any challengers were met by his top students.
There's a story where he did Randori in front of the U.S. President and the President wanted to take it to the U.S., that story was even before the Kodokan
@@Chadi Wow ! I thought his interactions internationally would've been much later than that. He must have made quite an impression !
@@rh45sth62 I'll cover this story soon
@@ChadiThanks Chadi, I look forward to it :-)
My club closed for good...So after Covid I will look for club that teaches both. If they do both, that’s where I will sign up.
Best of luck
If guard pulling was disallowed every bjj practitioner would have to learn takedowns. However too many people are not comfortable practicing takedowns because they are scared of the gravity if you know what I mean. I did a bit of judo as a child and then a couple of years of aikido in my early thirties, enough to learn how to fall safely. I've been training bjj over the last decade and at 48 yo I have no problem with being thrown while practicing stand up stuff. Love bjj but majority of academies are competition oriented so the old school thing is kinda fading away. Nice videos btw.
Thank you captain Jack
Chadi, if you choose judo over BJJ in a fight for practical reasons, then logic would presume you choose Muay Thai (or another striking art) over either. I suggest Muay Thai.
For whatever it’s worth, I’m a Jiu Jitsu black belt and have won many judo matches by throwing techniques… the same throwing techniques that I teach and practice in my BJJ classes.
woaw you are going to make many people angry , but i m on your side man . couldnt have said it better .
Haha thank you but it's not about making anyone angry, it's explaining 2 different visions that Kano and Oda had for Judo, but I tend to lean more towards what Kano Thought, cause tachi waza should not be cancelled for the sake of high school trophies.
@@Chadi agree .
I think one need both, 100% standing and 100% ground if that is mathematically possible 🤔 and if your knees can take it and not blow out when trowing
50 50 is mathematically right
Trowing?
You have to do a video on Cuban Judo.
Soon
@@Chadi That was fast ⚡⚡⚡
From my understanding, it seems alot of BJJ guys are bad stand up grapplers, but I'm lucky enough to find a place where people from different grappling backgrounds come, we would exchange knowledge of our arts after class, even my father was wrestler and he would tell me to always try to control our opponent try to always be on the top
Judo is the same, they want the takedown followed by the pin same with the wrestler
That's how it's become in most bjj schools today, especially in the last 15years.
This comment is late enough that it may not be noticed, but I wanted to add that if you find yourself in the unfortunate situation of having to fight more than one person at a time (I have, not fun), you definitely don't want to pull guard or be on the ground. I wound up taking my opponent down and went down with him, where I immobilized him. Then I was hit and kicked by his friends. Fortunately, the fight was broken up, but I learned a valuable lesson; hit and run, or throw and run, and don't commit yourself to a relatively immobile position on the ground.
100%
You're no less likely to get hit grabbing lapels as you are on the ground. Of course top game is better, but if you are on bottom you're gonna want to know what to do.
Not saying the ground has no use, but avoid it as much as possible
@@Chadi for sure, as a 13year wrestler before starting bjj and as a former MMA fighter, I absolutely advocate getting the takedown and working for top position.
Danaher was describing 90s bjj. In today's BJJ in America there's lots of takedowns and no-gi. In a place like Phoenix arizona where I live, people aren't wearing grips.
Try that with a average boxer
Who in his right or even dumb mind would take newaza over nage waza or throwing techniques, am a judo fighter and good on the ground but in street fights u must apply the most meanest and painful standing throws on your attackers, especially uchi mata,taio and seio nage and osoto gari, your throw must be able to knock out, paralyse or kill your attacker,even your newaza is to help u escape ground fighting situation and not stay there,and use wicked kuzushi also,and throw, don't ever think of newaza or proitize it over nage waza
Depending on the country, there are legal ramifications, in France you can't do that, you take them down in a controlled manner that you don't hurt them and then control
BJJ only won the championships it won, it made the fame it did because it was always fighting on top of a ring where taking a fall didn't make any difference. It's soft to fall off, that's it, the comfort zone has arrived.
If UFC, MMA and any other competition had been on unprotected ground, BJJ would NEVER have had the success it had... period.
There are male to male attacks, female to female, male to female and female to male. Attacks look different and you have difference in capabilities compared to eachother. Almost half of the planet is female. I am a female myself and the Oda style, even though made for competitive succes, I see it as more realistic for my selfdefense especially when attacked by a male. I saw a video of a female getting dragged into a van, guard pull would come in handy, I'd like to imanari roll my way out of there! I would not call that something a coward would do, more courageous. Also a lot of attacks are not on the street but in homes by people we know. How much is that taken into account in the self defense vs competition discussions?
Exactly, its always some mat jockey that probably has never been in a real fight in their lives, and certainly not under the conditions that women must fight off men, always telling people how they should defend themselves. How about more evidence and less (especially silly sport) based opinion.
Sambo is better than judo and bjj. Ask Khabib!
Come on, "no" not every real fight stars standing up. What a silly idea and so sport based. Watch real world video footage, lots of people are attacked while sitting down on bus stops or in cars, at the beach or park. How many woman have been assaulted while in there beds after someone climbed through a window, etc etc. So a lot of people stand up and face each other in confronations, but to miss the totality of real life vulnerability and possible positions shows a very poor understanding of the topic. Getting pushed into vertical surfaces is so common I should not have to mention it, and when against that vertical surface with weight against you..most of the principles of 'stand up" change radically and are more similar to ground fighting. The old school BJJ had self-defense techniques for all these positions, sitting on chairs, against walls and of course on the ground because that was the most dangerous but also most common positions.Good , scientific Self-defense is not what we would like it to be, but what statistically happens the most and self defence should be based around that data...not a childish 'wish list" developed by people who have never fought in the real world.
I don't get this narrative that you have to learn how to take someone down in self defense. Taking someone down is not self defense. Its self offense. I'm not a Leo or mma fighter. This narrative is non sense. You slam someone's head o' ground there's high chance of manslaughter conviction. Also who said you can't choke someone out standing? John danaher said his go to move when bouncing was arm drag to rear naked choke. This idea that newaza equals going to ground in street fight is false narrative.
I never said you can't choke someone standing, and I'm not saying do Te guruma and kill them, control the takedown so you limit their options on the ground and negotiate. I did a video specifically on this talking about NOT hurting the aggressor to avoid legal ramifications.
@@Chadi no. I'm not saying you but clearly that's the narrative. If you read comments it's always the standup vs ground argument that if you do bjj and go to ground you'll die. 😂
Damn dude, you are so blind to how biased you are. Seriously, if you're in a self defence situation against someone untrained, then it doesn't matter what you have: Judo, BJJ, wrestling, Muay Thai, whatever, you're going to wipe the floor with them. But if you want to be the most skilled as you can be to handle a trained guy, and/or bigger guys, then you will want ALL of: strike defense (Muay Thai, boxing, etc); take downs (Judo, wrestling, etc); AND ground game (BJJ, etc). And if you live in a warm climate, like I do, where people wear t-shirts almost all year around, if Judo is your game, then you sure better be training a lot of no-gi. How am I so sure of all this? I've three letters for you: UFC. Judo is useful in UFC, but it isn't king. Put a black belt Judo guy against a blue belt BJJ guy, and the Judo guy has a serious problem on his hands. Sure, the Judo guy will get him to ground for sure, but then what? I'll tell you what, you've just entered BJJ territory, and good luck to you. Sure, you might slam him so hard that you win the fight then and there, but if you don't, uh oh.
I come to this channel because you have a lot to teach, and it's interesting. It's a brilliant channel, but trying to tell everyone that Judo is king is a sad, delusional, joke. It ceased to be king when it became an Olympic sport, and deemed ne waza and afterthought, sad to say.
My journey started because I had someone I needed to deal with. I researched the best and quickest way to learn how to fight effectively, and the answer was a clear and definitive, BJJ. However, the more I trained and learned, I realised that even though BJJ is incredibly effective, it is incomplete. It is king on the ground, but to get there, you first need strike defence so you can close the distance without getting knocked out; and second you need better take downs than most BJJ schools teach. So I added Muay Thai and boxing; and Judo (gi and no-gi) and Wresting classes. These are additions, but I still predominantly train BJJ, as it is clearly king, get them to ground, and you win, end of story. Get to blue belt, you are seriously dangerous; purple belt, you can destroy almost everyone; black belt, you are a god amongst men. Most quit before blue, because it is damn hard work, and you have to be seriously motivated.
Damn dude, Kano wanted people to be effective and confident on their two feet, Oda did ground only. I'm preaching the same. I know i can do muay thai etc. But not everyone wants to live in an MMA camp to have good self defense. I'd say Judo compared to bjj only it's better for street, adapting the clinch is not a deal breaker. You went on a rant without grasping the ideas of the video.
@@Chadi I totally agree with the gist of what you're saying - yes, you need to be effective on your feet AND the ground. But the feet stuff is just about getting to the ground (it's a take down, right?), it's the ground stuff that is actually most effective at controlling the situation, and/or winning the fight. The thing with Oda, is he proved, by winning all the comps, that the ground stuff is king. Kano was right that it is foolish to completely abandon the feet, but he was so blinded by this that he didn't recognise the brilliance and power of what Oda was bringing to ne waza, and Judo in general. Neither modern Judo (which isn't Kano's Judo anyway), nor BJJ are complete as a self defence. The first has too much emphasis on the feet, and the second has too little. The answer, is to train both (plus some striking). Just as the answer to Oda vs Kano, is a combination of both.
PS - Let me put it this way, if one guy trains BJJ for 4 years and reaches purple belt, and another guy trains Judo for 8 years, are you confident your Judo guy would beat the BJJ guy in a street fight? My money is on the BJJ guy. If you're still thinking the Judo guy, then what about 4 years BJJ vs 4 years Judo? In that scenario, I'm confident the BJJ guy would utterly wipe the floor with the Judo guy. It doesn't have to be 4 years either, pick a number of years, 1 year, 10 years, it doesn't matter, BJJ every single time. Just as Oda's Judo beat Kano's every single time.
@@dadthelad a strong decisive takedown on asphalt will end it
@@Chadi That's a big if, unless you're up against an untrained guy. But if you're up against an untrained guy, it doesn't matter what martial art you train, you will win. If it's a trained guy, such as a BJJ guy, getting a strong decisive take down is a big if. See, in Judo comps, you get strong decisive take downs because that's the whole emphasis of the rule set, and both players are aiming for exactly that. Whereas, in say, submission grappling comps, you very rarely get a takedown that will end the fight, because the take down isn't the end game, and most of those types of take downs expose your back or so on. So yeah, you maybe might get a fight ending throw in against a trained guy, but it's far from a given, and if you don't, uh oh.