I once quoted a job for a guy that owned a suite company, he asked me to split my bill down so he could see how much was labour, materials and profits as it seemed high, I refused and told him that was the price, he didn't use me. Some months later when I was shopping round for a sofa I went in to this shop and asked the member of staff if they could justify the cost of the suite, how much did it cost them etc............... out comes the manager, "sir how can I help? I hear you are making some odd requests" to which I turned round and his face dropped, so how can you justify the price of the sofa, what are your costs etc? I was asked to leave the shop with minimal fuss! one rule for one and not for the other.
I'm working my way through your back catalogue. Initially I focussed on the vids around building stuff but I can honestly say the content you produce from a self employed business perspective is absolutely spot on. I can't argue against anything you say. It's informative, well balanced, and is grounded in knowledge and experience. I've just increased my rates after listening to what you have to say. Keep doing what you're doing.
‘Never known any industry where the overheads are so high yet the hourly rates are so low’. I’ve been thinking the same! Wondered if my perspective was skewed but it really seems to be the truth!
@@hansdegroot8549 the CAP does not favour British farmers and never has, mostly French farmers benefit from that particular subsidy as I understand it. Happy to be proved wrong.
The majority of problems the self employed folk experience stems from the misunderstanding that being a good joiner is the same as being a successful businessman. When I was starting my handyman business I couldn't understand why you would charge a certain fixed rate to everybody. 6 years later I can testify that I haven't. There are certain customers and skill sets that I charge more for and sometimes I charge a bit less say if I really like someone that gave me lots of business in the past. In general though, being a successful businessman is about understanding the principles of negotiation, being able to read your clients mind and assessing how much they're willing to pay. Essentially, it's a game that is really hard to play at the same time as you're focusing on doing a great job. I also just found out how important advertising is and how it can boost your morale and help you make a bigger profit. I'm Polish and charge in excess of £20 per hour and I can see my customers having a hard time parting with that kind of money but we all know they're not gonna find anyone anywhere near as good at this rate. I have to say it's a difficult game to play mentally and it's easy to just give in and start playing against your own interests. But the feeling of quoting well above what you thought you could get and getting the job anyways a few weeks later is priceless. The moral of this story is if you're not prepared to hone your business skills alongside your MDF ripping skills then don't complain you're not making enough money. Don't expect people to pay you more out of their own will, it's your responsibility to make your customers pay you more and there's more than one way of doing it. That's why I love and hate this job so much!
I agree for 95%. Still there are people who want to spend a lot of money for not-custom made furniture. But you need to find them (or better, they need to find YOU)
Oh wow, “Domino and biscuit MDF monkies” - I feel a bit sorry for those guys, now I’m on ‘team Lamello’ 😆. Oh, hope you don’t mind a quick editing tip Andy? Park in the one place you’ll have it done in 15min... 😂😂 Great vid. bud! 👍👍
Great couple of videos and a huge eye opener for a lot of people. I used to work for a guy whose quote on his emails was "I would rather explain the price for a while than be apologising for the quality for life" which is 100% a true statement. Charge what you need to and don't be afraid that you'll never be hired again because you charged for quality work.
As a back up job I work as a doorman (which I absolutely hate!!) Badge is £220 and a 2 day training course is about £150 so for about £370 your all qualified and ready to work, depending on where you work you can get around £15 an hour, compare that to my Carpentry/joinery business, 5 year apprenticeship, well over £50000 worth of tools/machinery and people turn their nose up when you ask for £20 per hour anyway another great video Andy, keep them coming 👍👍
I'm not English and English is not my mother tongue (and at this very moment too tired/lazy to look up the answer on Google) What is a doorman? (I don't blame you if you don't want to answer the question because it is too stupid)
@@hansdegroot8549 a doorman or "bouncer" work in bars/clubs, they work at the door, they apply the rules of dress code, try to maintain order and remove trouble makers 👍
Really interesting video, back in the 80's I was charging £400 a day, then again I was making items for very top end customers. I do see why people charge low amounts and I always thought that was a reflection of their confidence in their own performance.
On the subject of hourly rate/experience. A friend of mine designs hotel interiors for holiday chains. One household name flew him to Crete and back , so they knew how long he was on site. When he put the invoice in they queeried it with 'how long did it take you?' his reply was 'about 30 years'. Paid in full.
Great topic that doesn't seem to be talked about enough. I used to be a self-employed decorator, I remember quoting to paint a hall, stairs and landing in an average house. I said £350 as it would take a day and a half, the "potential" customer said "That's expensive, I've had a quote for £100 already. I replied "what the f**k am I here for then?". It seriously annoyed me with decorating, it's a trade full of cowboys and the majority of customers end up getting used to sub standard work. Like your viewer said, don't join the race to the bottom!
Cheers Scott! Yeah, it's really painful when customers say stuff like that. £100 for a job like that they must be running at a massive loss. You can guarantee they'll not be in business any more. 👍👊
I'm 24 and currently starting my own joinery business, only in the first 6 months or so. I charge £150 a day at the moment with little overheads as I'm working out of gazebo in my garden with limited tools etc. The rate that works coming is good with social media and word of mouth helping alot from job to job. I know everyone situation is different but I'm trying to get the balance of charging enough as a day rate but also for a star up keeping the work coming in. Especially as for myself any money earned is better than nothing. Any advise welcome. Cheers
For 15 years I’ve worked purely in an industrial environment. There is an unwritten rule that things are level, plumb and square. People undertaking the work generally have a good understanding of the materials they are using and what the manufacturers instructions say. Companies are generally fairly punctual/professional and do as you ask of them. Comparing this to my experience of the U.K. construction industry is like night and day. Having renovated 4 homes i was already fairly underwhelmed by U.K. construction workers. I’ve been through about 5 plasterers, 4 joiners, 3 electricians and 4 decorators. I’ve recently started a plumbing/heating company. Interviewing people for that has been the final nail in the coffin. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect people to turn up when they say they will (or communicate any delays at the very least), be competent at what they do, don’t cut corners and make sure things are close enough to level/plumb/square so the person coming along behind you doesn’t have a huge ball ache. More than anything I’m struck by the lack of pride in workmanship. I’m sure lots of people will dispute the above and say it’s just me but regularly see really shoddy work people have paid good money for in other people’s homes.
Great video again mate and lovely to see you’re little bit of Newcastle 👍 Each video on this subject is enhancing my knowledge base on the woodworking business and want thank you dearly. This is putting my business plan into a good place and moving myself into reality. Cheers mate 👍
Great to see so many familiar places, and then as you started to drive along Skinnerburn road I was thinking how I used to use that route to get home from the office, and lo and behold you pull up into our old car park and start peering into my old office building. That was the Ubisoft Reflections office, we moved out in January 2016, so it must have been standing vacant for at least 3.5 years as I can still see the old logo.
I really think it's where the customers are based. I grew up in a pit village and my Dad, (carpenter, cabinet maker and joiner) runs a woodyard in the same area and only does majority sheds and fencing because most in the area don't want to pay top money for quality furniture etc. But he's so busy, he doesn't want to invest in marketing and branding, which I can imagine helps reaching a clientele that does want to pay more.
Yeah - it's defo tricky in the smaller villages etc. Lots of opportunities for 'remote' work now which is good - so building a project and shipping it to a client etc. Best to do this through a middle-man though (e.g. interior designer) to avoid getting stung by folk not paying etc. I'm going off on a tangent as usual... 😂👍
Very interesting discussion... I have to say as a contractor with over 40 years of experience that charging a flat fee is the way to go keeping in mind your hourly rate and time involved. Many people will and do pay your rate if they feel you are competent to do the job. The ones that don't pay your rate are not your customer.
Love the comment about work on site . A company I was working for looking after 150 rent properties and doing all the snagging on the new properties . They couldn`t understand why i argued with management because they paid price work to joiners and other trades , never holding anything back until the work had properly been checked . Then instead of telling them to put the work correct they had been paid for , got me to put it rite mostly on overtime because I was so busy . Then wondered why they went bankrupt . A great video but cant believe some of what people had sent into you .
Makes my blood boil that as a site joiner I have a van with about 5 or 6 grand in tool kit to buy and maintain yet a bricklayer can earn the same money as me with a £100 toolkit carried around in a bucket!
I find this very interesting. I'm in Durham and mainly do bathrooms and kitchens but also most things property related. I've never worked out my hourly rate as I usually work on monthly figures.. I'm booked up usually 4 to 5 months ahead and have been for the last 4 years. Running the numbers I'm around £33 per hour. I've been thinking of putting my rates up for a while now and I've even ran it buy a few of my good customers and they all say the same.. they'll pay more no questions. It's just selling yourself and being able to backup your value I guess.. But I must say I usually work 6 days and 9 to 10 hour days that I do need to change as my body is starting to protest... Great video 👍
Another industry which is often maligned when you try to charge a reasonable wage for your time and money let alone the very large investment is photography. Everyone thinks they are a photographer and so called paparazzi photography earns thousands. I totally agree with you.
We've had the same joiner for the past 20 years, he's done everything from build custom kitchen units to built in bookshelves, custom sleigh bed etc. He charges £400 a day, which for the quality of his work is a bargain. He's retiring soon which is such a shame because its hard to find someone that'll put a similar level of effort and pride into the fit and finish that he is obsessed with
Just done a check on my late fathers figures, he was a self Employed skilled, time served (7 years) tradesman (carpenter & Joiner) - his day rate in '75 was £30 per day and his mate was £25 - in todays figures thats £250 and £208 respectively (rounded up). He had reduced his rates at that time 'cause work was very scarce. I guess he was lucky in that his own overheads were low in comparison to others around. But there are greater overhead costs today I'm sure. Do agree with you that you price the job(s) and stick to it. And charge more for 'little' (less than a day) jobs.
You have very eloquently explained the logic of pricing and charging for skilled bespoke work. Trade labour rates have been driven to the ground by big construction/housing companies and young QS's believe that there is no difference in labour construction costs between a modern brick built and a bespoke high spec building. This filters down to the general populace and we are where we are for skilled labour rates. It is an uphill task to change this perception. On a completely random different note - Question - How is your Evolution Mitre saw fixed to your workshop wall? I would like to do the same.👍👍
Spot on Andy. I've found the landscaping industry is very similar. Also found the more wealthy the customer the tighter they are. Some squeak when they walk, especially GPs, consultants and solicitors. People who had saved up to have work done just paid without question.
Yeah - it's tricky. A lot of it is down to a complete lack of understanding of the market (by the GPs etc.) so when they see someone come in and charge half of what you're quoting they assume you're ripping them off. Actually the person charging half is broke or working 'off the books'. 👍👊
@@GosforthHandyman You could be right. Fortunately I'm not landscaping any more. I just stick to the grounds maintenance. It's much more cut and dried and very little contact with customers.
Everything you say is completely correct but unless you’re working on a house half million plus or a successful business with high margins that amount of money cannot be justified if you’re working on a house with a value of £75,000 in the north-east of England how was it to pay these rates that would put the value of the house at three or four times when you’ve paid the plasterer the brickies the joiners electricians roofers window fitters etc at £40 an hour The work cannot be done not everybody can earn those rates of pay because there isn’t enough High end work out there for everybody some people have to do practical work at modest wages otherwise the work cannot be justified ?
I think you might be getting subcontractor rates mixed up with direct contractor rates? The trades you mentioned would probably be subbies to the builder so wouldn't need to charge so much since they *should* have a constant stream of work from the builder and don't have to spend so much time chasing work for themselves, overheads should also be a lot lower. So not £40/hr for subbies (although I have heard of many earning a lot more than that!). Remember the numbers I ran in part 1 only just achieved minimum wage - but folk need to run their own numbers as there's so many variables. 👍
Polish went to Germany and UK. Ukrainians, 3 million of them, went to Poland. Now in Poland there's more money to be made because Poland is having a boom in property. Lots of Poles going back right now. You can buy a mansion with land in Poland and earn great money there now. Would like to see a grading level of skills. Testing, work reviewed, where you're graded on quality and ability, with recommendations for improvement or direction of business.
Great video mate. Really educational and certainly something any self employed tradespeople should watch and anyone who wants to hire tradespeople actually. The first comment was a bit harsh, about the use of Dominos and Biscuits. It's like saying CNC work isn't woodworking. It's just an evolution of the craft.
Another great video in this labour price debate. Im not a joiner, but I the same premise is applicable to all types of self-employed workers regardless of their type of work. The overheads will clearly vary dramatically, but the basic calculations are the same. I'm a hot tub technician, I don't charge enough at the moment and I'm slowly creeping my rate upwards over the period of a few years. I have low overheads, so I don't expect to charge as much as others, but I think that an increase is in order. The issue that I have is my location, most people are very low earners and unfortunately for me they don't like to pay what I consider to be a fair price for my chosen profession. Thank you for making these informative videos and please keep this type of content coming.
Interesting video, thankyou. To put things into perspective I'm a field service engineer, emplpyed full time. I earn £20 an hour and I have zero overheads or other costs. That is only a basic living wage nowadays. So a skilled guy with overheads and other costs needs to think very carefully.
haha so it was you who put the rack slap in the middle of the floor in that comms room, that was such a pain in the bum :) After zurich had it another company had a short lease on it, we moved into the east half of the building in 2008, and slowly consumed the west wing over a period of 7 years, taking over your old office in 2014ish. we moved out in december 2015.
You are joking?? No way!! That's crazy. It looks like it's been empty for a long time. Rook Matthews used to be upstairs - not sure when they moved out. Wow, small world!! 😂👊
@@GosforthHandyman rook Matthews were just exiting when we arrived, that stayed empty till 2013, there was a house builders office below them that exited around 2010. It was part of my job unifying the IT in the building. After 2015 we moved up to gosforth, Small world indeed :D
Hi Andy, I love your vids but don't normally engage with this type of content because I'm not in the trade. However, I'm extensively renovating our home including fitted joinery and whenever my wife complains about me spending £xxxxx on new tools, I show her this (and Peter M's) and she stops. So thanks mate, Best regards, "The domino Monkey"
Me too. House is finished but lots of cupboards etc to work on. Wife now encourages me to get suitable tools because she's seen how I use them regularly, do work that's well designed and made, healthier (dust extraction), safer (sent back Erbauer and Evolution saws that were dangerously badly made, and faster due to quick set up. Pro tools pay for themselves very quickly even at DiY scale and pocket money from jobs for friends covers about half the cost. Give her credit, daughter insists on paying tool costs for jobs on her house - eg a nice little table saw for ripping recycled timber
My dad owned and operated a hardware store for 27 years in a small town in Canada, population 1200 and as I look back I am amazed that he made a decent living. This is not a comment on my Dad but a comment on owning and operating your own business instead of working for someone else. All the headaches of staff, paying the staff, buying the building, building/property tax, building insurance, building upkeep, advertising and utilities and the hours of work and the amount of sales required just to cover those items and all that is before making one cent of profit! Most people have no clue what is involved in running a business and state as many of them have that they will do the "business" stuff after working hours! Well then, be prepared to have a wife and family that are ignored, unhappy and resentful. Before anyone responds that "they" do it and their family doesn't mind - I challenge you to ask your spouse and family if they would prefer to have you spend more time with them or not. You will get an answer that may surprise you. You may have covered this in another video Andy but how many time do you spend editing and uploading these videos, that is how time per minute of final edit video? Thanks for bringing a reality check to many people who even after watching this still won't get it. Press On!
Hi Andy great Video as always, I wish I had seen it 30 years ago when I started in the furniture repair business. Unfortunately I had to learn the hard way . Your so right when you talk about charging enough to make a decent living. I remember I was doing repairs for a store and they asked me to handle the assembly of the flat pack furniture which I did for several years when a new furniture department manager took over he felt I was charging to much and found another sub contractor to do it for about half the price I was charging, he did ok for a couple of months but after that they had to send me out after him to do repairs and put things right. He called me and we had a chat, the problem was that he was doing it at such low price that he couldn’t make a living and was falling far behind on his bills. He had a nervous break down and quit the business I felt sorry for him. But it is a good lesson for any one going into any business make sure you do your homework and always keep tight control on your expenses. Take care have a great week
Oh wow! Yup - crunch the numbers. Seen it myself a few times too - folk just pretending there isn't a problem and they invariably find out the hard way. 👍👊
I price everything off a fixed price based on how long it think plus a margin for fuckups. 20% on all gear had some years recently where pricing not quite right and I lost out because of my poor productivity not getting jobs through fast enough only doing short days etc. Will send a set of accounts if I still have them in electronic format.
Hi Andy. Interesting video. I think that there is one other angle to take this from... quality of work and speed. For example... 2 different tradesmen could both be charging £30 per hour and produce the exact same quality of workmanship and end result. But one of them might do the same job as the other in half of the time. Therefore, an 8 hour job for one man might be a 4 hour job for another... same quality work and end result. Over the years I have done a lot of site 'price work' , and it's amazing the speed that some carpenters can do things with years of practice.
Great points and agree, if you provide an hourly rate people compare that to their own pay. Not a business . They don’t have a clue how much a business cost to run , just know they get £9 hour and anything above is outrageous! The word handyman causes difficulties in the uk, people think Bob a job !
Great video I'm a gas engineer that work for a company. I have wondered how to go about working for my self. You have madd some great points and what to think aboug if i was go on my own.
Hi Andy, excellent responses! The fact that many customers don't recognise/care about quality, is what leads to much of the poor quality that you see. If some of the more questionable "tradesman" can get away with it, they certainly will. I considered making children's toys some while ago, and came to the conclusion that without clients prepared to pay the real cost, I was into batch production. That would have been like factory work, plus lots of aggravation.
Talking as a customer and not a self employed tradesman, I see the fixed price issue like this. You charge a price for the job, and I can say yes or no. You have an idea of how long it will take and price based around that time at your hourly rate. If the job ends up taking longer than you expected then that’s the way it is, and that effects your bottom line. If it’s done quicker then you’re out of the house sooner, I’m still happy with the price I paid (that I agreed to). It’s the compromise you’ve got to make for knowing the exact cost up front.
Thank you. Message received and understood! However.... In any market, you can only charge what the market will pay. If you think joinery is a race to the bottom, try painting and decorating, everyone thinks they can do it, so the perceived added value is very low. Being self employed is a perpetual dilemma between getting the business at the rate you want/need and not getting the business at all. So, do you accept the price you can get or sit twiddling your thumbs? Every tradesperson who provides a personal service (compared to a company) will have a group of customers they get on with. You buy from people like you. I know that there are groups of people (demographics) who will never buy from me because I don't talk like them. I know that my customer base is mainly white collar professionals (I was in IT/web tech also. Happy to have a geek-out anytime). So I don't get into the Facebook 'need a plasterer tomorrow, must be cheap...' thing, ever. Conclusion. You're bang on with your approach and it requires confidence to say £40/hour etc.
I don't think the guy says that qualifications are the be-all, end-all of the trade. However, what he's right in that with good trade organizations, their members are expected to provide work to a certain (good) standard. If they don't, they'd run the risk of being reported to the trade organization, who can then withdraw their qualifications, leading to them not having the same clout in the business, and in some cases being put completely out of business. At least in electrics (and many other trades on top of that, though I don't know if this applies to carpentry/joinery) it's in the interest of the trade organizations, who issue qualifications, to be trustworthy. Because of this, they'll disassociate themselves from people who, as you say, "just don't care", and as such, if you can show qualifications, it usually does mean that you're providing work to the level that the customer would expect. Obviously this is a minimum level, and can be further improved upon, but at least, you know, you have a baseline "acceptable" level to compare with.
I know that this is not the same industry but the mind and skill required is similar but we charge for our elevator mechanics 205/Hour and we are low compared to other companies.
25 year ago I had my own joinery shop making windows and doors. Within 1/2 mile there were 2 others shops doing the same as me and a vinyl window shop. It was a cutthroat business. Most money was made by selling labour than the windows and doors.
Great video Andy. Love the format, trouble is I had what was to be a quick peak, this morning, and ended up being late into work. Made up for it though, did not get home till 9:30 tonight
I'm a plumber (also retrained from IT) but this is very useful for me too. I always agonise about putting my rate up, but your videos definitely give me extra resolve. (I charge £30 per hour at the moment, but perhaps I should increase a little). Thanks Andy! 🙂
Hi Pete, how are you finding it with the £30 an hour rate? I’m currently training to be a carpenter but have friends in different trades charging a variety of prices
Wow it's so good to see something like this, its such valuable information for us sell employed carpenters like us, I have seen such bad work all the time, were the customers have paid such high rates for the work, I have always done top quality work my self and find all the time people don't want to pay the going rates, I don't understand why the people who do such poor quality work and change top rates get the work all the time, yet when I change the going rates For quality work, people don't want to pay,
Andy, I do work for various people, some pay cash, some pay card, some via paypal, even had offer of payment in "bitcoin" or other "crypto" as long as you get paid, who cares where it comes from.........
I've recently become a "MDF Domino Monkey" after watching yours, Peter's and Alastair's channels and OMG what an eye opener!!! (not a pro, just a hobby). The amount of work and infrastructure that goes into creating even basic cabinets, to a good standard, is almost unbelievable. I see no reason to justify the rates you've suggested, keep it up!!!
I think one major issue here is how the market adjusts to customer experience and expectation. What I mean is: we all know that a lot of trade work is done to a low standard by cowboys (it's just a sad fact of life -- and I have to say that, although I've never lived outside of the UK, I do wonder whether this is particularly a UK problem). Therefore, it's inevitable that, when considering costs, people will, consciously or unconsciously, factor in some estimate of the probability that the guy doing their work is not as good as he is supposed to be. This means that they are afraid to pay a decent going rate for work of a quality that they are not sure they are going to get. TH-cam is brimming with videos from really excellent tradesmen showing how they've had to fix other people's cock-ups, so I don't think I'm far wrong here. If I could be confident from the outset that I was getting the Gosforth Handyman, I would be jumping for fucking joy, and the money would flow effortlessly out of my bank account and into his. No questions asked. But I have rarely been that confident. How do we fix this? (serious question).
Thanks for the kind words! Don't get me started. I think in Germany tradespeople are viewed as actual human professionals... mainly since they act that way. In the UK there's too much arsing about and while it's a laugh at the time it paints a terrible picture of how professional our trades are. I only see this in the UK... but perhaps I'm being naive. Big housing companies are also to blame since they almost always promote speed over quality resulting in a lack of pride in your own work... and probably also acts as a catalyst for arsing about, since they don't care and can get away with it. Couple this with the CEOs drawing MASSIVE £1m+ earnings while paying peanuts to the actual people building the houses and that's what you get, sadly. Not sure how to fix it... but I do think it's getting better... very slowly. 👍
Andy I do agree with what your saying I live in Hampshire and rates are between £250 and £500 same thing customers want perfection but some do not pay the higher prices but then a small amount do not worry about cost going back to what you said high quality and top customer service but you do need to be in that customer level on your books nice video David
Great content as always. I’m retraining to be a joiner at the moment and your videos are a big help. I’m in my 30s so I need to be earning good money asap and wouldn’t survive on an apprenticeship wage. Should I be charging the same as someone who has been doing joinery for 20+ years and has a lot more experience. I don’t want undercharge for my work but understand I’m still learning. Thanks a lot
Why make the switch from IT to Handyman? I work in IT and its up and down, but I'm really enjoying renovating my house. Just wondering what it was that triggered you to make the jump to another career path?
currently guilty of doing an "auf wiedersehen pet" in Germany 😁 just trying to work out which one I am 🤔 Dennis , I think I might be Dennis. I hope I'm not Oz 🤣 your drives made me miss Newcastle 😭
@@GosforthHandyman I am planning a trip out to munchen-gladbach to take some brass rubbings of church floor gratings 🤫 they're very interesting actually 🤪
Been on my own as a bricklayer 14 yrs and still seem to be just struggling by yet I'm always busy and don't even advertise . Always about 4-6 months booked up . Found your videos about rates very Imformative . Where can I find the spread sheet to work out my best rate .
Maybe you should become a painter & decorator. My son asked a guy for a quote this week to gloss and emulsion 2 rooms in a small terrace. Quote...£1800. Cheeky bleeder!
Very interesting video, I watched part one and re assessed the hourly rate in our landscape design and build business, and had a very good work out of all the cost etc as a lot has changed over the last year or so and being busy I forget to take a step back from the work and check the business is making the money you think it is. I’m glad to say I didn’t need to change the hourly rates very much just a couple of pounds to take in to consideration holidays and bad weather a bit better. Business costs are different to yours as we don’t require a work shop etc, but on the other hand there is other costs like plant machinery and tipper truck cost (truck cost is £5300 a year alone not including fuel ) etc etc so seems to work out fairly similar. I find customers expect to pay a reasonable hourly rate on a job anysize especially in excess of 4 weeks even as long as 16 weeks on a fixed price most of the time and sometimes not on a fixed price and never had a problem when handing the bill over. I find most customers having this sort of work carried out usually earning 3-4 times our rate on the books with no stress of being self employed and don’t even question the hourly rate. When a 20 minute service on their car costs 300quid at the main dealer. Thanks ! Great video . I think most of the people commenting “£300 a day is to much” etc must be living under a rock with no contact with the outside world.
Here's a tricky one. As someone hiring a trades person it is seriously difficult to work out how to find someone who charges more because they are better I.e. they offer a better quality of job, spend more time and just generally give a s#@t! I'm no millionaire but appreciate a good job and am happy to pay for it. But when I'm given a few quotes that vary a lot, it's a lottery as to whether the costs correlate with quality finish. Of course occasionally I can get a hold of a good recommendation but it isn't always possible. I'm not sure there is an answer but it just means it must be a lot harder for someone pricing themselves above the average because "they're worth it".... 🤷♂️
Totally agree Chris and see this a lot. The variation between quotes is vast and it makes it impossible for customers to know what is / isn't a good deal. I get the impression that the financial side of running a business just isn't something that gets taught at college. 👍
Still loads of dodgy tradesmen about wanting cash in hand without offering a discount. I had one quote the other day and got given a price, when I mentioned will bank transfer be OK once job is done, he back tracked and said it would be more as he'll have to pay VAT. There was no cheap price for cash agreed beforehand and he just assumed I'd be paying by cash. Needless to say I didn't get him to do they job as I'm not being part of someone's tax fiddle. I doubt he was even VAT registered to start with.
Hmm... yeah, worrying - seen this too. If they're making enough to be VAT registered then they can afford to do things legit. Tax evasion while making >£85k is sheer stupidity. 😀
People saying they “Can’t,” charge £30/hour are actually just trying to justify their fear of trying. Nobody who’s SERIOUSLY wanting a service carried out aren’t willing to pay a sensible rate. People who aren’t are not worth doing business for anyway. They’re the type to stiff you on the bill.
My father had a carpenter build him a bookcase and desk, I got to know said carpenter called John, he was very skilled, and worked off £34 per hour, although I recon he was only just making enough. In this day most people want as much as they can get for their money, and there is only a minority of people willing to spend money on quality and supporting local businesses. It is a shame really
I also refuse to work on new build housing estates as I'm just not happy spewing out shoddy work. A new build for a smaller scale builder then fine count me in but not for any of the big house builders. 🙂
Bit grim hearing someone complain about freedom of movement and foreigners. A while ago I had a plasterer who banged on about immigrants. Funnily enough he charged £450 for 1 1/2 days work and wanted to charge more because I wouldn’t pay him in cash.
It's a tricky one and too bigger topic for this video (or channel!) - a lot of folk have been bitten though and wounds are still fresh. Sadly businesses who were already on the breadline are destroyed by under-cutting.
Gosforth Handyman sure, this is why everyone should pay taxes and be regulated the same regardless. And like you say in the video, a lot of it does have to do with the customers who are willing to pay cash in hand to cowboys.
My comnent !!! . Just What to comment man !! Actually you (the Europeans) live in anather world . Me as a Syrian carpenter. Have been worked In Syria for 15 years and now in Lebanon .. yeah... we are talking about the same amout of income . But with a little deference. U talk about amount for an hour .. we talk the same amount for a week You talk about a day income we talk the same about month . Lucky you brothers I wish you the best ❤
loved your film and the setting for it that you decided on, Very entertaining and an interesting subject. I started doing home hobby wood work for the past five years making things for around the house. I will soon be making small things and selling them on e-bay, bit most of all, it is a hobby which I love doing and if I make some money out of it to help the costs of running my work shop all the better. Kindest regards, Bill from Australia.
Nice to know you worked in IT! Do you think IT rates are lower or higher than joinery/woodworking rates? And is it ‘fair’? My rate (it consultant) I’m Italy is about 400 eur/day, with 16 years of experience. Junior people are about 250/280 eur/day Looks like 300£ is very low considering Scotland/Uk is more expensive than Italy (I’ve been there!) and woodworking requires expensive tools!
For IT contracting rates are about what you mention. IT rates seem to be a lot more consistent and predictable. Joinery rates are all over the place from very, very cheap to very, very expensive, often for more or less the same end product. Would love to visit Italy one day! 👍👊
I think it is also the case that some IT rates have not increased over time as much as you would expect. I think this is due to the fact that some skills are much more widely available than they used to be.
These videos are very very good content. All the points are very valid there’s a lot of factors that affect pricing. What the area market is if it’s all sash windows in Georgian houses then great but if it’s little old lady that wants hour a week then prices need to reflect the work base. I’m great full to you Andy for the kick up the arse I need to play about with the prices
Hi Again the certificates even back in the 80s were expensive I was paying then 1500 pounds per week for machine jcb even more today David Andy one biggest problem with trades men is having confidence to speak to customers and definitely I have had it priced a job for 5 days done it in 3 and customer thinks they should have money off must stand your ground and contract I had the principal tidy van tidy shop everything in its place tidy mind job gets done next job I know a few carpenters joiners and contractors and wonder why they struggle tools beget broken for some materials it snow balls but to me confident and good customer services with good understanding what they are getting for the price or hourly rate no misinterpretation of work or price any extras agreed before starting and in contract all the best David
Is this interesting, what you are all telling??? YES IT IS. In so many ways. If you ever, for one reason or another, stop doing your one-man-band (PM's words) woodworking business, you can become an psychologist (and earn 300 GBP per hour). Great demonstration and explanation how (some) people think and others not. By the way. I stopped the video at 10:26 to watch the picture there. One of the most beautiful non-nature pictures I have ever seen because of the reflection. If you did it on purpose, you're a genius (instead of becoming a psychologist you also can become an (art)photographer, if it happened only by coincidence you may confess :-) )
Do you really mark up your materials, or are you just pricing in the time it takes to select the correct materials and the best supplier for them, fetching materials, dealing with warranty returns etc.?
It depends on the job but basically exactly what you're saying. If I'm supplying something that could break or go faulty for some reason (e.g. a door) then defo mark it up. Bad example as I *always* got customers to supplier their own doors since there were *always* problems with doors. But yes, you need to make sure you're covering yourself for everything from researching the materials to buy through to picking them up and handling any potential returns etc. For bigger installs where all I'm supplying is MDF and screws and I already have stuff in stock I sometimes just charge at cost, depending on how much I want the job. I normally mark up materials about 20% though. I've had some jobs where driving around picking everything up has taken 1-2 days before I even start. 👍👊
Good video as always, but as a Pole leaving in the UK I can't agree with some of the comments that basically we are to blame for every problem with this country , as self employed joiner I lost jobs to Englishmen on few occasions simply because they were willing to do it for such a silly money I couldn't even get the materials, how they managed it's beyond me. Anyway it's buyers market I'm afraid.
You'd be surprised how many people have retrained after IT! I'm a self employed plumber, and I left IT at age 41 (now 56) and I can't tell you how much more I enjoy meeting new people every day instead of sitting in a pokey office configuring remote routers. Thoroughly recommended! 😊
I once quoted a job for a guy that owned a suite company, he asked me to split my bill down so he could see how much was labour, materials and profits as it seemed high, I refused and told him that was the price, he didn't use me. Some months later when I was shopping round for a sofa I went in to this shop and asked the member of staff if they could justify the cost of the suite, how much did it cost them etc............... out comes the manager, "sir how can I help? I hear you are making some odd requests" to which I turned round and his face dropped, so how can you justify the price of the sofa, what are your costs etc? I was asked to leave the shop with minimal fuss! one rule for one and not for the other.
He's right
I'm working my way through your back catalogue. Initially I focussed on the vids around building stuff but I can honestly say the content you produce from a self employed business perspective is absolutely spot on. I can't argue against anything you say. It's informative, well balanced, and is grounded in knowledge and experience. I've just increased my rates after listening to what you have to say. Keep doing what you're doing.
‘Never known any industry where the overheads are so high yet the hourly rates are so low’. I’ve been thinking the same! Wondered if my perspective was skewed but it really seems to be the truth!
Farming
@@paulrobinson3042 Farmers get donations from government and/or EU (the latter not anymore after this year)
@@hansdegroot8549 the CAP does not favour British farmers and never has, mostly French farmers benefit from that particular subsidy as I understand it. Happy to be proved wrong.
@@TheErador I assumed (apparently wrongly according your words) that all EU farmers receive donations, some (much) more than others.
Automotive or anything in a factory. From a welder.
Why would anyone want dovetails if you want it painted? Joints sufficiently strong for the job. Bespoke is not cheap.
The majority of problems the self employed folk experience stems from the misunderstanding that being a good joiner is the same as being a successful businessman.
When I was starting my handyman business I couldn't understand why you would charge a certain fixed rate to everybody.
6 years later I can testify that I haven't. There are certain customers and skill sets that I charge more for and sometimes I charge a bit less say if I really like someone that gave me lots of business in the past.
In general though, being a successful businessman is about understanding the principles of negotiation, being able to read your clients mind and assessing how much they're willing to pay. Essentially, it's a game that is really hard to play at the same time as you're focusing on doing a great job.
I also just found out how important advertising is and how it can boost your morale and help you make a bigger profit.
I'm Polish and charge in excess of £20 per hour and I can see my customers having a hard time parting with that kind of money but we all know they're not gonna find anyone anywhere near as good at this rate.
I have to say it's a difficult game to play mentally and it's easy to just give in and start playing against your own interests. But the feeling of quoting well above what you thought you could get and getting the job anyways a few weeks later is priceless.
The moral of this story is if you're not prepared to hone your business skills alongside your MDF ripping skills then don't complain you're not making enough money. Don't expect people to pay you more out of their own will, it's your responsibility to make your customers pay you more and there's more than one way of doing it. That's why I love and hate this job so much!
People want big box store prices on custom goods. That's the big problem.
I agree for 95%. Still there are people who want to spend a lot of money for not-custom made furniture. But you need to find them (or better, they need to find
YOU)
I know what you mean hue!
Oh wow, “Domino and biscuit MDF monkies” - I feel a bit sorry for those guys, now I’m on ‘team Lamello’ 😆. Oh, hope you don’t mind a quick editing tip Andy? Park in the one place you’ll have it done in 15min... 😂😂 Great vid. bud! 👍👍
😂😂😂 Lol, yeah - there was a lot of driving yesterday! I thought the monkey comment was a bit harsh... 😂😢
Dowel guys are also in other team :)
What about pocket hole joiners? Where are WE classing them dudes? LOL 😃
Thank goodness I use pocket holes in my DIY builds - I suppose that would make a pocket hole squid or something! LOL
Damn! I wanted to see the look on your face when Andy told you that! Btw 'Team Lamello' = 'Team Gorilla' and they make the glue so....
Great couple of videos and a huge eye opener for a lot of people. I used to work for a guy whose quote on his emails was "I would rather explain the price for a while than be apologising for the quality for life" which is 100% a true statement. Charge what you need to and don't be afraid that you'll never be hired again because you charged for quality work.
Cheers Peter! 👊👍
As a back up job I work as a doorman (which I absolutely hate!!) Badge is £220 and a 2 day training course is about £150 so for about £370 your all qualified and ready to work, depending on where you work you can get around £15 an hour, compare that to my Carpentry/joinery business, 5 year apprenticeship, well over £50000 worth of tools/machinery and people turn their nose up when you ask for £20 per hour anyway another great video Andy, keep them coming 👍👍
Cheers Mike! Yeah, folk just don't understand the overheads of a woodworking business... or most trades businesses to be honest. 👊👍
I'm not English and English is not my mother tongue (and at this very moment too tired/lazy to look up the answer on Google) What is a doorman?
(I don't blame you if you don't want to answer the question because it is too stupid)
@@hansdegroot8549 a doorman or "bouncer" work in bars/clubs, they work at the door, they apply the rules of dress code, try to maintain order and remove trouble makers 👍
@@Smithb83 Thanks for explaining.
Really interesting video, back in the 80's I was charging £400 a day, then again I was making items for very top end customers.
I do see why people charge low amounts and I always thought that was a reflection of their confidence in their own performance.
I love the relaxed atmosphere of this video and hearing everyone's input. Thanks Andy. Im right on target.
On the subject of hourly rate/experience. A friend of mine designs hotel interiors for holiday chains. One household name flew him to Crete and back , so they knew how long he was on site. When he put the invoice in they queeried it with 'how long did it take you?' his reply was 'about 30 years'. Paid in full.
Exactly - wise words. 👍😀
Great topic that doesn't seem to be talked about enough. I used to be a self-employed decorator, I remember quoting to paint a hall, stairs and landing in an average house. I said £350 as it would take a day and a half, the "potential" customer said "That's expensive, I've had a quote for £100 already. I replied "what the f**k am I here for then?". It seriously annoyed me with decorating, it's a trade full of cowboys and the majority of customers end up getting used to sub standard work. Like your viewer said, don't join the race to the bottom!
Cheers Scott! Yeah, it's really painful when customers say stuff like that. £100 for a job like that they must be running at a massive loss. You can guarantee they'll not be in business any more. 👍👊
I'm 24 and currently starting my own joinery business, only in the first 6 months or so.
I charge £150 a day at the moment with little overheads as I'm working out of gazebo in my garden with limited tools etc.
The rate that works coming is good with social media and word of mouth helping alot from job to job.
I know everyone situation is different but I'm trying to get the balance of charging enough as a day rate but also for a star up keeping the work coming in. Especially as for myself any money earned is better than nothing.
Any advise welcome. Cheers
Ok now I want a dovetail MDF built in wardrobe.
I once got asked to repair some dovetail joinery on a wardrobe - never heard back when I gave them the price. 😂
For 15 years I’ve worked purely in an industrial environment. There is an unwritten rule that things are level, plumb and square. People undertaking the work generally have a good understanding of the materials they are using and what the manufacturers instructions say. Companies are generally fairly punctual/professional and do as you ask of them.
Comparing this to my experience of the U.K. construction industry is like night and day. Having renovated 4 homes i was already fairly underwhelmed by U.K. construction workers. I’ve been through about 5 plasterers, 4 joiners, 3 electricians and 4 decorators.
I’ve recently started a plumbing/heating company. Interviewing people for that has been the final nail in the coffin.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect people to turn up when they say they will (or communicate any delays at the very least), be competent at what they do, don’t cut corners and make sure things are close enough to level/plumb/square so the person coming along behind you doesn’t have a huge ball ache.
More than anything I’m struck by the lack of pride in workmanship.
I’m sure lots of people will dispute the above and say it’s just me but regularly see really shoddy work people have paid good money for in other people’s homes.
Couldn't agree more, im looking at changing industries. Its a real Shame
Matthew Trott it’s a shame, I guess practical skills just aren’t appreciated in the U.K. these days.
Great video again mate and lovely to see you’re little bit of Newcastle 👍 Each video on this subject is enhancing my knowledge base on the woodworking business and want thank you dearly. This is putting my business plan into a good place and moving myself into reality. Cheers mate 👍
I'm in Canada...I was fascinated by how nice it seems to drive around in an urban centre there. Our traffic and roads are an absolute shitshow
Having worker in Alberta and living in the UK I would say the opposite. I think its just the area and roads he was on.
They built that bridge a long time after I left the north, but I never knew it swung up like that. Learned something today, thanks Andy. :)
Total fluke that it went up while I was filming! 😀
Excellent advice , running a small business in the construction field is tough and we forget all the real costs and never charge enough!
Great to see so many familiar places, and then as you started to drive along Skinnerburn road I was thinking how I used to use that route to get home from the office, and lo and behold you pull up into our old car park and start peering into my old office building. That was the Ubisoft Reflections office, we moved out in January 2016, so it must have been standing vacant for at least 3.5 years as I can still see the old logo.
I really think it's where the customers are based. I grew up in a pit village and my Dad, (carpenter, cabinet maker and joiner) runs a woodyard in the same area and only does majority sheds and fencing because most in the area don't want to pay top money for quality furniture etc.
But he's so busy, he doesn't want to invest in marketing and branding, which I can imagine helps reaching a clientele that does want to pay more.
Yeah - it's defo tricky in the smaller villages etc. Lots of opportunities for 'remote' work now which is good - so building a project and shipping it to a client etc. Best to do this through a middle-man though (e.g. interior designer) to avoid getting stung by folk not paying etc. I'm going off on a tangent as usual... 😂👍
Very interesting discussion... I have to say as a contractor with over 40 years of experience that charging a flat fee is the way to go keeping in mind your hourly rate and time involved. Many people will and do pay your rate if they feel you are competent to do the job. The ones that don't pay your rate are not your customer.
Defo flat fee. 👍
Love the comment about work on site . A company I was working for looking after 150 rent properties and doing all the snagging on the new properties . They couldn`t understand why i argued with management because they paid price work to joiners and other trades , never holding anything back until the work had properly been checked . Then instead of telling them to put the work correct they had been paid for , got me to put it rite mostly on overtime because I was so busy . Then wondered why they went bankrupt . A great video but cant believe some of what people had sent into you .
Makes my blood boil that as a site joiner I have a van with about 5 or 6 grand in tool kit to buy and maintain yet a bricklayer can earn the same money as me with a £100 toolkit carried around in a bucket!
Nice to see you applying some of your creative skills to the video Andy! Really well put together, and the content wasn’t bad either! Thanks!
Cheers Paul! 👊
I find this very interesting. I'm in Durham and mainly do bathrooms and kitchens but also most things property related. I've never worked out my hourly rate as I usually work on monthly figures.. I'm booked up usually 4 to 5 months ahead and have been for the last 4 years. Running the numbers I'm around £33 per hour. I've been thinking of putting my rates up for a while now and I've even ran it buy a few of my good customers and they all say the same.. they'll pay more no questions. It's just selling yourself and being able to backup your value I guess.. But I must say I usually work 6 days and 9 to 10 hour days that I do need to change as my body is starting to protest... Great video 👍
Gonna start on my mown soon qualified plumber/handyman, really appreciate the honesty 👍
Fantastic and best of luck! 👍
Another industry which is often maligned when you try to charge a reasonable wage for your time and money let alone the very large investment is photography. Everyone thinks they are a photographer and so called paparazzi photography earns thousands. I totally agree with you.
We've had the same joiner for the past 20 years, he's done everything from build custom kitchen units to built in bookshelves, custom sleigh bed etc. He charges £400 a day, which for the quality of his work is a bargain. He's retiring soon which is such a shame because its hard to find someone that'll put a similar level of effort and pride into the fit and finish that he is obsessed with
Just done a check on my late fathers figures, he was a self Employed skilled, time served (7 years) tradesman (carpenter & Joiner) - his day rate in '75 was £30 per day and his mate was £25 - in todays figures thats £250 and £208 respectively (rounded up). He had reduced his rates at that time 'cause work was very scarce. I guess he was lucky in that his own overheads were low in comparison to others around. But there are greater overhead costs today I'm sure.
Do agree with you that you price the job(s) and stick to it. And charge more for 'little' (less than a day) jobs.
You have very eloquently explained the logic of pricing and charging for skilled bespoke work. Trade labour rates have been driven to the ground by big construction/housing companies and young QS's believe that there is no difference in labour construction costs between a modern brick built and a bespoke high spec building. This filters down to the general populace and we are where we are for skilled labour rates. It is an uphill task to change this perception. On a completely random different note - Question - How is your Evolution Mitre saw fixed to your workshop wall? I would like to do the same.👍👍
Spot on Andy. I've found the landscaping industry is very similar. Also found the more wealthy the customer the tighter they are. Some squeak when they walk, especially GPs, consultants and solicitors. People who had saved up to have work done just paid without question.
Yeah - it's tricky. A lot of it is down to a complete lack of understanding of the market (by the GPs etc.) so when they see someone come in and charge half of what you're quoting they assume you're ripping them off. Actually the person charging half is broke or working 'off the books'. 👍👊
@@GosforthHandyman
You could be right. Fortunately I'm not landscaping any more. I just stick to the grounds maintenance. It's much more cut and dried and very little contact with customers.
Everything you say is completely correct but unless you’re working on a house half million plus or a successful business with high margins that amount of money cannot be justified if you’re working on a house with a value of £75,000 in the north-east of England how was it to pay these rates that would put the value of the house at three or four times when you’ve paid the plasterer the brickies the joiners electricians roofers window fitters etc at £40 an hour The work cannot be done not everybody can earn those rates of pay because there isn’t enough High end work out there for everybody some people have to do practical work at modest wages otherwise the work cannot be justified ?
I think you might be getting subcontractor rates mixed up with direct contractor rates? The trades you mentioned would probably be subbies to the builder so wouldn't need to charge so much since they *should* have a constant stream of work from the builder and don't have to spend so much time chasing work for themselves, overheads should also be a lot lower. So not £40/hr for subbies (although I have heard of many earning a lot more than that!). Remember the numbers I ran in part 1 only just achieved minimum wage - but folk need to run their own numbers as there's so many variables. 👍
Polish went to Germany and UK.
Ukrainians, 3 million of them, went to Poland.
Now in Poland there's more money to be made because Poland is having a boom in property.
Lots of Poles going back right now.
You can buy a mansion with land in Poland and earn great money there now.
Would like to see a grading level of skills. Testing, work reviewed, where you're graded on quality and ability, with recommendations for improvement or direction of business.
Great video mate. Really educational and certainly something any self employed tradespeople should watch and anyone who wants to hire tradespeople actually. The first comment was a bit harsh, about the use of Dominos and Biscuits. It's like saying CNC work isn't woodworking. It's just an evolution of the craft.
Another great video in this labour price debate.
Im not a joiner, but I the same premise is applicable to all types of self-employed workers regardless of their type of work. The overheads will clearly vary dramatically, but the basic calculations are the same.
I'm a hot tub technician, I don't charge enough at the moment and I'm slowly creeping my rate upwards over the period of a few years. I have low overheads, so I don't expect to charge as much as others, but I think that an increase is in order.
The issue that I have is my location, most people are very low earners and unfortunately for me they don't like to pay what I consider to be a fair price for my chosen profession.
Thank you for making these informative videos and please keep this type of content coming.
I didn’t realise how tight my margins were until my planer broke and replacing it was exactly what I’d earned that day!
Interesting video, thankyou.
To put things into perspective I'm a field service engineer, emplpyed full time.
I earn £20 an hour and I have zero overheads or other costs. That is only a basic living wage nowadays.
So a skilled guy with overheads and other costs needs to think very carefully.
I'm not full-time wood -- in fact I have a full-time job doing other things -- but in any event I aim for a dollar a minute for what I build.
Yup - good rate. 👍👊
haha so it was you who put the rack slap in the middle of the floor in that comms room, that was such a pain in the bum :)
After zurich had it another company had a short lease on it, we moved into the east half of the building in 2008, and slowly consumed the west wing over a period of 7 years, taking over your old office in 2014ish. we moved out in december 2015.
You are joking?? No way!! That's crazy. It looks like it's been empty for a long time. Rook Matthews used to be upstairs - not sure when they moved out. Wow, small world!! 😂👊
@@GosforthHandyman rook Matthews were just exiting when we arrived, that stayed empty till 2013, there was a house builders office below them that exited around 2010. It was part of my job unifying the IT in the building. After 2015 we moved up to gosforth, Small world indeed :D
Hi Andy,
I love your vids but don't normally engage with this type of content because I'm not in the trade. However, I'm extensively renovating our home including fitted joinery and whenever my wife complains about me spending £xxxxx on new tools, I show her this (and Peter M's) and she stops. So thanks mate, Best regards, "The domino Monkey"
Ha ha - another Domino monkey! I guess I'm a biscuit monkey. Best of luck with the renovation! 👍👊
Me too. House is finished but lots of cupboards etc to work on. Wife now encourages me to get suitable tools because she's seen how I use them regularly, do work that's well designed and made, healthier (dust extraction), safer (sent back Erbauer and Evolution saws that were dangerously badly made, and faster due to quick set up. Pro tools pay for themselves very quickly even at DiY scale and pocket money from jobs for friends covers about half the cost. Give her credit, daughter insists on paying tool costs for jobs on her house - eg a nice little table saw for ripping recycled timber
My dad owned and operated a hardware store for 27 years in a small town in Canada, population 1200 and as I look back I am amazed that he made a decent living. This is not a comment on my Dad but a comment on owning and operating your own business instead of working for someone else. All the headaches of staff, paying the staff, buying the building, building/property tax, building insurance, building upkeep, advertising and utilities and the hours of work and the amount of sales required just to cover those items and all that is before making one cent of profit! Most people have no clue what is involved in running a business and state as many of them have that they will do the "business" stuff after working hours! Well then, be prepared to have a wife and family that are ignored, unhappy and resentful. Before anyone responds that "they" do it and their family doesn't mind - I challenge you to ask your spouse and family if they would prefer to have you spend more time with them or not. You will get an answer that may surprise you.
You may have covered this in another video Andy but how many time do you spend editing and uploading these videos, that is how time per minute of final edit video?
Thanks for bringing a reality check to many people who even after watching this still won't get it. Press On!
Hi Andy great Video as always, I wish I had seen it 30 years ago when I started in the furniture repair business. Unfortunately I had to learn the hard way . Your so right when you talk about charging enough to make a decent living. I remember I was doing repairs for a store and they asked me to handle the assembly of the flat pack furniture which I did for several years when a new furniture department manager took over he felt I was charging to much and found another sub contractor to do it for about half the price I was charging, he did ok for a couple of months but after that they had to send me out after him to do repairs and put things right. He called me and we had a chat, the problem was that he was doing it at such low price that he couldn’t make a living and was falling far behind on his bills. He had a nervous break down and quit the business I felt sorry for him. But it is a good lesson for any one going into any business make sure you do your homework and always keep tight control on your expenses. Take care have a great week
Oh wow! Yup - crunch the numbers. Seen it myself a few times too - folk just pretending there isn't a problem and they invariably find out the hard way. 👍👊
I price everything off a fixed price based on how long it think plus a margin for fuckups. 20% on all gear had some years recently where pricing not quite right and I lost out because of my poor productivity not getting jobs through fast enough only doing short days etc. Will send a set of accounts if I still have them in electronic format.
Great stuff. 👊
Hi Andy. Interesting video. I think that there is one other angle to take this from... quality of work and speed. For example... 2 different tradesmen could both be charging £30 per hour and produce the exact same quality of workmanship and end result. But one of them might do the same job as the other in half of the time. Therefore, an 8 hour job for one man might be a 4 hour job for another... same quality work and end result. Over the years I have done a lot of site 'price work' , and it's amazing the speed that some carpenters can do things with years of practice.
Great points and agree, if you provide an hourly rate people compare that to their own pay. Not a business . They don’t have a clue how much a business cost to run , just know they get £9 hour and anything above is outrageous! The word handyman causes difficulties in the uk, people think Bob a job !
Great video I'm a gas engineer that work for a company.
I have wondered how to go about working for my self. You have madd some great points and what to think aboug if i was go on my own.
Great stuff - best of luck!
Hi Andy, excellent responses! The fact that many customers don't recognise/care about quality, is what leads to much of the poor quality that you see. If some of the more questionable "tradesman" can get away with it, they certainly will.
I considered making children's toys some while ago, and came to the conclusion that without clients prepared to pay the real cost, I was into batch production. That would have been like factory work, plus lots of aggravation.
Talking as a customer and not a self employed tradesman, I see the fixed price issue like this.
You charge a price for the job, and I can say yes or no. You have an idea of how long it will take and price based around that time at your hourly rate. If the job ends up taking longer than you expected then that’s the way it is, and that effects your bottom line. If it’s done quicker then you’re out of the house sooner, I’m still happy with the price I paid (that I agreed to).
It’s the compromise you’ve got
to make for knowing the exact cost up front.
Exactly - I find most folk want me to be done and out their house ASAP. 😂👍👊
Thank you.
Message received and understood!
However....
In any market, you can only charge what the market will pay. If you think joinery is a race to the bottom, try painting and decorating, everyone thinks they can do it, so the perceived added value is very low.
Being self employed is a perpetual dilemma between getting the business at the rate you want/need and not getting the business at all.
So, do you accept the price you can get or sit twiddling your thumbs?
Every tradesperson who provides a personal service (compared to a company) will have a group of customers they get on with. You buy from people like you. I know that there are groups of people (demographics) who will never buy from me because I don't talk like them. I know that my customer base is mainly white collar professionals (I was in IT/web tech also. Happy to have a geek-out anytime). So I don't get into the Facebook 'need a plasterer tomorrow, must be cheap...' thing, ever.
Conclusion. You're bang on with your approach and it requires confidence to say £40/hour etc.
I don't think the guy says that qualifications are the be-all, end-all of the trade.
However, what he's right in that with good trade organizations, their members are expected to provide work to a certain (good) standard. If they don't, they'd run the risk of being reported to the trade organization, who can then withdraw their qualifications, leading to them not having the same clout in the business, and in some cases being put completely out of business.
At least in electrics (and many other trades on top of that, though I don't know if this applies to carpentry/joinery) it's in the interest of the trade organizations, who issue qualifications, to be trustworthy. Because of this, they'll disassociate themselves from people who, as you say, "just don't care", and as such, if you can show qualifications, it usually does mean that you're providing work to the level that the customer would expect.
Obviously this is a minimum level, and can be further improved upon, but at least, you know, you have a baseline "acceptable" level to compare with.
I know that this is not the same industry but the mind and skill required is similar but we charge for our elevator mechanics 205/Hour and we are low compared to other companies.
25 year ago I had my own joinery shop making windows and doors. Within 1/2 mile there were 2 others shops doing the same as me and a vinyl window shop. It was a cutthroat business. Most money was made by selling labour than the windows and doors.
Interesting! 👍👊
Great video Andy. Love the format, trouble is I had what was to be a quick peak, this morning, and ended up being late into work. Made up for it though, did not get home till 9:30 tonight
I'm a plumber (also retrained from IT) but this is very useful for me too. I always agonise about putting my rate up, but your videos definitely give me extra resolve. (I charge £30 per hour at the moment, but perhaps I should increase a little).
Thanks Andy! 🙂
Hi Pete, how are you finding it with the £30 an hour rate? I’m currently training to be a carpenter but have friends in different trades charging a variety of prices
Wow it's so good to see something like this, its such valuable information for us sell employed carpenters like us, I have seen such bad work all the time, were the customers have paid such high rates for the work, I have always done top quality work my self and find all the time people don't want to pay the going rates, I don't understand why the people who do such poor quality work and change top rates get the work all the time, yet when I change the going rates For quality work, people don't want to pay,
Andy, I do work for various people, some pay cash, some pay card, some via paypal, even had offer of payment in "bitcoin" or other "crypto" as long as you get paid, who cares where it comes from.........
I've recently become a "MDF Domino Monkey" after watching yours, Peter's and Alastair's channels and OMG what an eye opener!!! (not a pro, just a hobby). The amount of work and infrastructure that goes into creating even basic cabinets, to a good standard, is almost unbelievable. I see no reason to justify the rates you've suggested, keep it up!!!
Cheers bud! It's a labour of love at times! 😀
Man I love watching you driving around Newcastle! I really hope to bump into you one day to say hi!
If you see me give me a shout! 👊👍
I think one major issue here is how the market adjusts to customer experience and expectation. What I mean is: we all know that a lot of trade work is done to a low standard by cowboys (it's just a sad fact of life -- and I have to say that, although I've never lived outside of the UK, I do wonder whether this is particularly a UK problem). Therefore, it's inevitable that, when considering costs, people will, consciously or unconsciously, factor in some estimate of the probability that the guy doing their work is not as good as he is supposed to be. This means that they are afraid to pay a decent going rate for work of a quality that they are not sure they are going to get. TH-cam is brimming with videos from really excellent tradesmen showing how they've had to fix other people's cock-ups, so I don't think I'm far wrong here.
If I could be confident from the outset that I was getting the Gosforth Handyman, I would be jumping for fucking joy, and the money would flow effortlessly out of my bank account and into his. No questions asked. But I have rarely been that confident.
How do we fix this? (serious question).
Thanks for the kind words! Don't get me started. I think in Germany tradespeople are viewed as actual human professionals... mainly since they act that way. In the UK there's too much arsing about and while it's a laugh at the time it paints a terrible picture of how professional our trades are. I only see this in the UK... but perhaps I'm being naive. Big housing companies are also to blame since they almost always promote speed over quality resulting in a lack of pride in your own work... and probably also acts as a catalyst for arsing about, since they don't care and can get away with it. Couple this with the CEOs drawing MASSIVE £1m+ earnings while paying peanuts to the actual people building the houses and that's what you get, sadly. Not sure how to fix it... but I do think it's getting better... very slowly. 👍
Andy I do agree with what your saying I live in Hampshire and rates are between £250 and £500 same thing customers want perfection but some do not pay the higher prices but then a small amount do not worry about cost going back to what you said high quality and top customer service but you do need to be in that customer level on your books nice video David
Great content as always. I’m retraining to be a joiner at the moment and your videos are a big help. I’m in my 30s so I need to be earning good money asap and wouldn’t survive on an apprenticeship wage. Should I be charging the same as someone who has been doing joinery for 20+ years and has a lot more experience. I don’t want undercharge for my work but understand I’m still learning. Thanks a lot
Why make the switch from IT to Handyman? I work in IT and its up and down, but I'm really enjoying renovating my house. Just wondering what it was that triggered you to make the jump to another career path?
currently guilty of doing an "auf wiedersehen pet" in Germany 😁
just trying to work out which one I am 🤔 Dennis , I think I might be Dennis.
I hope I'm not Oz 🤣
your drives made me miss Newcastle 😭
Barry more like!! 😉😉🤣😘
@@GosforthHandyman I am planning a trip out to munchen-gladbach to take some brass rubbings of church floor gratings 🤫
they're very interesting actually 🤪
I'm quite jealous in all honesty! Enjoy and don't accidentally burn the hut down! 😂👊
This Andy/Aidy beef is bigger than the Owen/Shearer one. I'll get me popcorn...
Been on my own as a bricklayer 14 yrs and still seem to be just struggling by yet I'm always busy and don't even advertise . Always about 4-6 months booked up . Found your videos about rates very Imformative . Where can I find the spread sheet to work out my best rate .
Maybe you should become a painter & decorator. My son asked a guy for a quote this week to gloss and emulsion 2 rooms in a small terrace. Quote...£1800. Cheeky bleeder!
Hi Andy you're first opening comments are so true!
Steve
Exactly! Change your market. Great video.
Cheers Tom 👍👊
Very interesting video, I watched part one and re assessed the hourly rate in our landscape design and build business, and had a very good work out of all the cost etc as a lot has changed over the last year or so and being busy I forget to take a step back from the work and check the business is making the money you think it is. I’m glad to say I didn’t need to change the hourly rates very much just a couple of pounds to take in to consideration holidays and bad weather a bit better.
Business costs are different to yours as we don’t require a work shop etc, but on the other hand there is other costs like plant machinery and tipper truck cost (truck cost is £5300 a year alone not including fuel ) etc etc so seems to work out fairly similar.
I find customers expect to pay a reasonable hourly rate on a job anysize especially in excess of 4 weeks even as long as 16 weeks on a fixed price most of the time and sometimes not on a fixed price and never had a problem when handing the bill over. I find most customers having this sort of work carried out usually earning 3-4 times our rate on the books with no stress of being self employed and don’t even question the hourly rate. When a 20 minute service on their car costs 300quid at the main dealer.
Thanks ! Great video . I think most of the people commenting “£300 a day is to much” etc must be living under a rock with no contact with the outside world.
Fantastic stuff - yeah, I can imagine the weather plays a massive part in whether you can actually get on with stuff. Keep up the good work! 👍👊
Hi Andy, I'd be interested to know what you think an experienced and fully equipped subcontractor should be charging.
Here's a tricky one. As someone hiring a trades person it is seriously difficult to work out how to find someone who charges more because they are better I.e. they offer a better quality of job, spend more time and just generally give a s#@t! I'm no millionaire but appreciate a good job and am happy to pay for it. But when I'm given a few quotes that vary a lot, it's a lottery as to whether the costs correlate with quality finish. Of course occasionally I can get a hold of a good recommendation but it isn't always possible. I'm not sure there is an answer but it just means it must be a lot harder for someone pricing themselves above the average because "they're worth it".... 🤷♂️
Totally agree Chris and see this a lot. The variation between quotes is vast and it makes it impossible for customers to know what is / isn't a good deal. I get the impression that the financial side of running a business just isn't something that gets taught at college. 👍
Fantastic and facinating video - best business advice I've heard [ and I've been through the govt startup courses!]
In Tampa FL a decent day rate out at a residence is $500 / Day for Good quality. Exceptional is around $675/daily
Hope you guys are OK and weathering the current storms! 👊👍
Where did you get hold of the Claudia caminotti track playing while brige opens
Still loads of dodgy tradesmen about wanting cash in hand without offering a discount. I had one quote the other day and got given a price, when I mentioned will bank transfer be OK once job is done, he back tracked and said it would be more as he'll have to pay VAT. There was no cheap price for cash agreed beforehand and he just assumed I'd be paying by cash. Needless to say I didn't get him to do they job as I'm not being part of someone's tax fiddle. I doubt he was even VAT registered to start with.
Hmm... yeah, worrying - seen this too. If they're making enough to be VAT registered then they can afford to do things legit. Tax evasion while making >£85k is sheer stupidity. 😀
I'm still watching it and I'm really enjoying it!
Lol it's a long one! 😂
some cracking haunts in the video there Andy. Nothing better than a jolly ride out too :)
Glad you enjoyed it! 👍👊
People saying they “Can’t,” charge £30/hour are actually just trying to justify their fear of trying. Nobody who’s SERIOUSLY wanting a service carried out aren’t willing to pay a sensible rate. People who aren’t are not worth doing business for anyway. They’re the type to stiff you on the bill.
People here in Canada just bring home beat up furniture from wherever, and the rest is DIY
The more money you have, the stingier you are going to get.
My father had a carpenter build him a bookcase and desk, I got to know said carpenter called John, he was very skilled, and worked off £34 per hour, although I recon he was only just making enough. In this day most people want as much as they can get for their money, and there is only a minority of people willing to spend money on quality and supporting local businesses. It is a shame really
Yeah it's tricky, at £34/hr he'd probably make a living but not a very good living considering the skills he probably had. 👍
I also refuse to work on new build housing estates as I'm just not happy spewing out shoddy work. A new build for a smaller scale builder then fine count me in but not for any of the big house builders. 🙂
Bit grim hearing someone complain about freedom of movement and foreigners.
A while ago I had a plasterer who banged on about immigrants. Funnily enough he charged £450 for 1 1/2 days work and wanted to charge more because I wouldn’t pay him in cash.
It's a tricky one and too bigger topic for this video (or channel!) - a lot of folk have been bitten though and wounds are still fresh. Sadly businesses who were already on the breadline are destroyed by under-cutting.
Gosforth Handyman sure, this is why everyone should pay taxes and be regulated the same regardless. And like you say in the video, a lot of it does have to do with the customers who are willing to pay cash in hand to cowboys.
My comnent !!! .
Just What to comment man !!
Actually you (the Europeans) live in anather world .
Me as a Syrian carpenter. Have been worked In Syria for 15 years and now in Lebanon .. yeah... we are talking about the same amout of income . But with a little deference.
U talk about amount for an hour .. we talk the same amount for a week
You talk about a day income we talk the same about month .
Lucky you brothers
I wish you the best ❤
Electrician I enjoy the content 👍
Cheers bud! 👍
loved your film and the setting for it that you decided on, Very entertaining and an interesting subject. I started doing home hobby wood work for the past five years making things for around the house. I will soon be making small things and selling them on e-bay, bit most of all, it is a hobby which I love doing and if I make some money out of it to help the costs of running my work shop all the better. Kindest regards, Bill from Australia.
Fantastic stuff and best of luck on the eBay side Bill! 👍👊
Nice to know you worked in IT!
Do you think IT rates are lower or higher than joinery/woodworking rates? And is it ‘fair’?
My rate (it consultant) I’m Italy is about 400 eur/day, with 16 years of experience. Junior people are about 250/280 eur/day
Looks like 300£ is very low considering Scotland/Uk is more expensive than Italy (I’ve been there!) and woodworking requires expensive tools!
For IT contracting rates are about what you mention. IT rates seem to be a lot more consistent and predictable. Joinery rates are all over the place from very, very cheap to very, very expensive, often for more or less the same end product. Would love to visit Italy one day! 👍👊
Gosforth Handyman if you take a Ryanair flight to Treviso/Venice, where I live, I’d be happy to show you around!
I think it is also the case that some IT rates have not increased over time as much as you would expect. I think this is due to the fact that some skills are much more widely available than they used to be.
These videos are very very good content. All the points are very valid there’s a lot of factors that affect pricing. What the area market is if it’s all sash windows in Georgian houses then great but if it’s little old lady that wants hour a week then prices need to reflect the work base. I’m great full to you Andy for the kick up the arse I need to play about with the prices
Hi Again the certificates even back in the 80s were expensive I was paying then 1500 pounds per week for machine jcb even more today David Andy one biggest problem with trades men is having confidence to speak to customers and definitely I have had it priced a job for 5 days done it in 3 and customer thinks they should have money off must stand your ground and contract I had the principal tidy van tidy shop everything in its place tidy mind job gets done next job I know a few carpenters joiners and contractors and wonder why they struggle tools beget broken for some materials it snow balls but to me confident and good customer services with good understanding what they are getting for the price or hourly rate no misinterpretation of work or price any extras agreed before starting and in contract all the best David
My dad always said "Do good work and the business will come" and he was right.
A bit of cash here and there is the small hand loop hole. But you're right it's not sustainable long term.
Interesting video.
Is this interesting, what you are all telling??? YES IT IS. In so many ways. If you ever, for one reason or another, stop doing your one-man-band (PM's words) woodworking
business, you can become an psychologist (and earn 300 GBP per hour). Great demonstration and explanation how (some) people think and others not.
By the way. I stopped the video at 10:26 to watch the picture there. One of the most beautiful non-nature pictures I have ever seen because of the reflection.
If you did it on purpose, you're a genius (instead of becoming a psychologist you also can become an (art)photographer, if it happened only by coincidence you may
confess :-) )
Great video thanks for your time and information, well done 👍🏻
Do you really mark up your materials, or are you just pricing in the time it takes to select the correct materials and the best supplier for them, fetching materials, dealing with warranty returns etc.?
It depends on the job but basically exactly what you're saying. If I'm supplying something that could break or go faulty for some reason (e.g. a door) then defo mark it up. Bad example as I *always* got customers to supplier their own doors since there were *always* problems with doors. But yes, you need to make sure you're covering yourself for everything from researching the materials to buy through to picking them up and handling any potential returns etc. For bigger installs where all I'm supplying is MDF and screws and I already have stuff in stock I sometimes just charge at cost, depending on how much I want the job. I normally mark up materials about 20% though. I've had some jobs where driving around picking everything up has taken 1-2 days before I even start. 👍👊
Good video as always, but as a Pole leaving in the UK I can't agree with some of the comments that basically we are to blame for every problem with this country , as self employed joiner I lost jobs to Englishmen on few occasions simply because they were willing to do it for such a silly money I couldn't even get the materials, how they managed it's beyond me. Anyway it's buyers market I'm afraid.
Brilliant, eyes opening video.
Good to know if i ever want to quit IT I can go into a trade! haaha! what age did you leave working in IT?
You'd be surprised how many people have retrained after IT! I'm a self employed plumber, and I left IT at age 41 (now 56) and I can't tell you how much more I enjoy meeting new people every day instead of sitting in a pokey office configuring remote routers. Thoroughly recommended! 😊
Perhaps Aidy's difficulty to charge any more than £30ph is due to his attitude rather than the market?
Seems that pay might cover a drive around town doing some filming.