Dyno testing crazy long trumpets - 200whp 4age
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 มิ.ย. 2019
- This experiment was done in an attempt to catch the first harmonic wave. Every time the inlet valve shuts it sends a pressure wave back up the inlet tube. When the wave exits the inlet tube a wave is sent back down the inlet tube. if the wave lines up with the next inlet valve opening event, it will have supercharging effect forcing more air into the cylinder.
This can also have a big negative effect, if lines up at the incorrect time pulling air away from cylinders
In the video you will see this was a complete failure, as no extra power was made anywhere across the rpm range.
A theory on what happened, is the loss/restriction created the long pipes outweighed any gains. even at the tuned rpm.
The silicone hoses sucking in was most likely caused by the negative pressure wave and the engine trying to draw the air in at the same time. probably showing a bigger power loss than expected in the dips. - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
Hey everyone new vid up addressing silicone joiners th-cam.com/video/Q5uAUEtCyC8/w-d-xo.html
*Bosozoku members:* "Now this is an avenger level threat."
Lmao
I pick ITB over turbo
yes
@@GhostOfDamned same
It makes any engine from 1600cc to 2400cc sound like an 80s-90s n/a racing engine .
For a moment I had to check this wasn't Garage 54
Thought it was the 35 clear coat car with a new engine.
Same 😂
So did I
Garage 54 would have done it twice as big.
lol, I just posted the exact same comment! With that dyno intro, I was thinking they must have made a DIY nitrous kit or something XD
cop pulls him up: "sir do you know why I pulled you over?"
Him: "because my intake pipes are still to short?"
officer: "yup"
😂😂
I honestly watched this just for the sound
Good, everyone else is taking it way to seriously 😂😂
I thought everybody is
4age with trumpets are always sounds very good
Me to🤘
Same, this channel is underrated. Tests are simple and don't need 5hours talking.
Me too lol
Nice to finally see numbers from the old didgeridon't velocity stacks
The people who first used big stacks in drag racing ground a special camshaft which had delayed intake valve closing. The ram effect was able to put more mixture into the cylinders. Their rivals also tried stacks, but they only had half the solution so didn't get any improvement
Huh I wonder if thats where the term Ram Air came from?
@@griffins5655 Pontiac sold a ram air kit in 1965 to make the hood scoop functional, which was the first use of Ram air on cars, but ram and rat was used in propeller driven airplane engines decades earlier.
Is this story referring to The Ramchargers High and Mighty car?
The world's first 4age powered Vuvuzela Quartet
I wonder if you could figure out a way to have a traffic cone go into each throttle body, what the results would be.
That's what a bellmouth aka velocity stack is.,.
@@maddog9659 imagine the size
IIhan, nice to meet you. If your referring to the traffic cones they are huge but they are so tall and long that air would be moving very slowly at the entrance but airspeed would increase as the taper narrowed until it maxed out at the entrance to the pipe, i found the pipe and its made by iplex and the throttle bodies are 52mm so i'm guessing he's using 51.33mm pipe to closely match the diameter of the throttle bodies so he's losing a little in the piping but not much, but the next larger pipe size is 61.3mm which is almost10mm too large so that's why he used the slightly smaller 51.33mm..
Aka a 600mm intake manifold Imagine the torque
Hey everyone. I will be uploading a video in a few days, that addresses the silicone hose issue
The pipe diameter should be bigger , sucking in hoses is a sign of restriction , like sucking a blocked straw , but it could be vibrations from having unsupported weight . Lucky bugger to have a dyno to experiment , good luck .
only 201 hp?
@@1974charrua could do with taper over the whole runner yes. they are 51mm so pretty decent size. new vid up addressing silicone issue
@@nickd920 its only a 1600cc. An example; a 6.0 LS would have to make 750hp at wheels non turbo to make the same HP per litre
The 4age sounds so good na one of my favorite sounding motors
I absolutely adore people taking concepts to the extreme, but also being very scientific about things!
The pipes at idle sound like a didgeridoo
Mate, I found your chanel this week, and I'm loving it! Thank you!
Great sounding 4A-GE. Interesting video!
There's a damn dyno in a shed! What kind of dyno is it? The trumpets were hilarious, loved the sound up close. Your 4age sounds pretty strong,I checked your other videos for info, 300deg cams, nice. How's it below 5000k? Compression? What kind of pistons? Megasquirt? I want to know everything :)
driving 4 answers there’s a build thread oldschool.co.nz/index.php?/topic/44718-kprs-84-hilux/&page=5
Its an old vane bed, with dynotorque (a company that used to make dyno's here in nz) control. seems pretty accurate . engine makes just as much power below 4000rpm as a stock 4age, it really gets going from 4500 onwards. have spent a lot of time making the powerband wide as possible, not just peak numbers. has toda pistons, roughly 13:1 compression, Link G4 ecu. kelford cams and springs. port & fab work done by myself.
@@vincentamerena7302 Awesome, thanks!
@@d4a Try this one for the starlet oldschool.co.nz/index.php?/topic/21725-kprs-kp60/&page=9
At first I thought this was Garage 54. I was thinking: Woah, they've upped their budget a lot!!
I like your channel and your projects! very cool stuff
Intriguing - I appreciate the data shared here - VERY helpful...
Wow that is sick! I can only hope to even get anywhere near that with my in progress hi comp 4ag build
Nice vid my friend!
So many guys talking theory trash with no experience...
You just did it.
I think the combi of runner length an cam duration is interesting.
With a softer cam, there should be torque gains in the midrange.
Good job
It's an interesting video, but i reckon those silicon pipes were the real letdown for most of it.
I know its not ideal, but results would have been similar either way. Silicone joiners only suck in when there's a negative pressure. Negative Reflected wave is trying to pull air out of the intake while engine trying to pull air in. They don't suck in at all when they are run on there own, with no pipe attached. As the runner length is short enough to not see the big negative reflected wave.
Garage 4age true, I hadn't thought of it like that. Either way, I doubt there's any benefits to running an enormous runner like that even in ideal conditions.
@@GTarditi no there is a sweet spot for every stage of rpm. Variable length intake runners were developed tok capitalise on this, such as the LeMan winning Mazda 787B
@@Garage4age with hoses flexing you can't be sure of anything you just tested. pulses are variations of pressure witch hoses attenuated so max hp gain or lost because of runner length was lower.
@@Garage4age results would not be similar make an adapter for the tubes withhout silicone something like metal bends and then mount the same lenghts of pipe again and dyno again you should in theory gain much more torque. Just make adaptors for tubes with something that doesnt suck in because its a fail if its sucked in a waste of time.
Straight to the point, I love it.
What a fantastic little engine!
You can see how the various, sensible/practical, lengths would move the power around in the rev range! Fascinating stuff and just proves the importance of pulse tuning to determine where in the rev range do you want your engine to be it's strongest based on use case :D
Best of both worlds would be fully adjustable intake trumpets. The 26B from the Mazda 787b had something like that.
Interesting! I was expecting some power gains at some RPM ranges. The Mazda 787B race care uses variable telescope intake pipes to match the runner length with RPM's.
Wait, that's actually genious!
Son unos genios muy interesante todo sobre preparacion de admisiones o cuerpos. Saludos desde Argentina
What about having the type of shape of the inlet tubes like the 2 stroke exhaust has? I think they are tuned not just using length but using width as well.
I would love to see if throttle body spacers on stock plenum have any effect and if there is any dependence on its thickness.
Keep on awesome work!
This car lives a rough life, never seen it not on a dyno doing WOT pulls! 😆
Nasty with it! Excellent ride!
i want to hear flexible tube.
like the one that makes that obnoxious whistling noise
perfect test
sounds pretty good actually
Damn this thing is so cool
Takumi will be proud if he see what have you done to your car
Knows nothing about cars, but I got curious. Anyone tried " tesla walves ". On a car intake ? Where the flow got more resistans one way ?
You made a natural rev limiter! Kinda crazy seeing those rubber hoses suck in while you're on it, you can really tell it wants more air!
It's interesting seeing the end graph that shows them all- I'd figure the Power curve would be similar, just more exaggerated with length but they each seem to have their own curves.
This is really cool to see someone actually putting the variable runner intake to the test. We're looking in to this and seeing this result gives us great motivation to continue the difficult road ahead.
However we've read that that how greater the angle with the atmosphere is, the stronger the airwave can be. We're wondering what the torque curve would do when using it with only the tubes. Also does this effect get stronger with 45 degrees tip bent inwards? Or even get completely variable with an iris valve at the tip? Maybe you can achieve a virtual langer runner by using a iris valve 30/50% closed.
Also the venturi effect in the exhaust can be tuned in a similar way. We're going to use 4 exhaust pipes over the complete length of the car and close 3 of these at low rpm and add one when increasing the rpm. Also to get the optimum venturi at each rpm, each exhaust tip will be an iris that can be tuned. Maybe something to look into as well?
What about x pipe intake to account for the negative air wave during combustion
4ag + Kp= life!
I love your work! btw do you have a own dyno?
What happens if you angle each inlet away from each other so that they don't suck air from the same geometric plane, or use different length trumpets, like on some old McLaren Can Am engines?
The angle needed to fit the pipes probably altered the pulse timing adversely causing the wave to be reflected back instead of into the port. Long intake tubes only work at certain rpm usually lower than peak which is why many performance marks use secondary butterflies and different length runners to try and tune for top and bottom end power.
Testing the positioning of various cold air scoops may have more top end benefit.
hahahahahahaa damn..didn't expect it to sound that good tho..that intake surge is madd
Love your extractor, do you sell them or make them...
I really liked the curve from 200mm stacks. You can see it come in and out of resonance, and up to I am guessing 6000rpm it doesn't seem to be a restriction. The issue you get with strait tubing is that it forces laminar flow without shedding the boundary layer. Everyone thinks smooth is the best, but what do you think a golfball would fly like if it was smooth like a table tennis ball? Even at only 200mm its still to much restriction. There needs to be a slight taper for it to work out right, it would be a metric ton of work without a 3d printer. This was awesome.
would have been good to test tapered runners, But yeah way to much work for something that will be chucked in the bin. I did think about getting the next size up pipe and slicing a section out and gluing back together. But have decided to concentrate on testing stuff that fits in the engine bay. so is usable in real world if something works well
going to do the 4age swap. any dose or donts????
Makes it sound interesting!
I would love to see if venturis in the stack itself would make an improvement?
Did you do custom wiring on that if you did can you help me out with my wiring?
can you have a look at how much power a 4af toyota makes with just one weber on
I love those power ghaps :D
3:28 The silicone tube is absorbed into the pile ?
Hi, I've always wondered if vortex generators inside the trumpets would make any difference, especially on carburated engines. In this case in the manifold in between the carburettor and cylinder head.
Kind regards, No
How do you get the starter to sound like that? I think it's really cool
I love that engine. I want to know the build specs on it.
Basics of it are: ported smallport head, oversized valves, 300deg kelford cams, 52mm throttles, Toda pistons, bc rods. toda oil pump gears, arp hardware. running around 13:1 compression
@@Garage4age nice man I'm about to scoop me up a 4age and was goin GB to try a na build. Did you need a dry sump oil pump? Or just upgraded oil pump gears
Have run the stock pump up to 9000rpm for years with no issues. long as use the late model wide gear pump, they are fine. when rebuilt the engine about 6 months ago went with toda pump gears, so could rev a little higher if needed
@@Garage4age gotcha thanks. I just subscribed too🙌🙌🙌 I'm about to join the notification squad
At 13:1 What fuel do you run it on?
4:40 that sounds awesome
Garage 4age - it would very interesting to see dyno test of hot day vs cold evening witch all refers to intake air temperature... (i know that Atmospheric / barometric pressure matters as well) for example, My car - 1.6 8v 100 hp NA engine when driving in hot summer day especially in the city traffic very quickly becomes a donkey :) feels like it pulls a 1000 kg trailer behind.. ambient temp. 33-35C intake air temperature sometime exceed's 60C - that's crazy.
Now when driving in cool evening no traffic or country road - around 10C ambient then intake air temp is only 3-4C higher. Then my car becomes a Road Runner again (laugh)
BTW - Your channel is probably the best channel on YT when it comes to various and interesting car mods with dyno results :)
Keep it Up :)
All the best
Andrey from Poland
Hey, I have been thinking about doing something on air temps. I just need to come up with a way to do it, while isolating everything else and doesn't get me ridiculed by the internet haha. a lot of ecu's will pull timing as temps go up, which is part of the power loss. current idea is to do it on my turbo engine. run fixed timing. reverse the radiator fans to heat soak the intercooler. so its only the iat changing.
@@Garage4age - Thank you for your replay.. When you mentioned about timing pull, it got mi thinking.. so few days ago I did some dynamic logs with my vcds and guess what.. under 100% load on 3th or 4th gear Ecu did pull timing - up to 12 deg on cylinder 1 and 4 - 6-8 on cyl 2 and 3
Now I know why my car fells sluggish :)
I will take some actions to reduce the time pull.
Again - Many thanks !!
All the best
Andrey
What about a 4-1 or 4-2-1 intake with a much larger pipe at the start?
do you think you could mubble and stumble a little bit more?
THE POOR 4AGE :( GOOD VIDEO !
Someone had to do it , great experiment man , I'm looking to do itbs on my b16 thinking about 150mm , quite long runners for mid range where the b16 lacks coming out of corners
Nice, Definitely worth playing with runner length. this engine gained 10kw across a lot of the power band, by adding 50mm more runner length. which is the setup its running on the 150kw run
@@Garage4age yeah definitely has an impact
your air filter is so cute :D
Those first runs though, god damn!
I have head (ex-gr.A), pistons (toda) block and crank (42-20 squirter) but still need rods.
Any recommendations?
Depends what your doing with it. in most cases dont need to get too fancy with the bottom end. factory rods with arp's good for 9k rpm. but something bit lighter is always good, or if going past 9k
Hey. Good day! Can you try use 1 throttle body for intake manifold and try change with different size of diameter.
Interesting test. Of course, the frictional losses of the straight pipe will increase as the pipe gets longer. A degree or two of taper should fix that. But you'd probably have to make them from scratch. Also, it would be interesting to see what it would do with a plenum chamber and a ram tube.
Hi man may i know what ecu are you using? Nice build tho!
Hi, It has a link g4 ecu.
An experienced engine builder mentioned that he found that an expansion / anti-reversion chamber right before the throttle body woke up top end, that's with a plenum style intake with a very long intake tube, may be applicable with your ITBs - hope you can test his theory. Thanks!
I guy i know 3d printed a double bellouth trumpet setup for a customer, which was spose to have had good results. its basically 2 bellmouths/trumpets stacked on top of each other with air gap between them. sounds like similar idea to what you explain. im trying to convince him to make me some to test
Great engine, I have something similar have atlantic valves, toda 304/288 with 10.5 lift, cp carrilo 12:5 pistons, bc rods, forged crank and I was using a big port head handmade ported and know I change to small port head handmade ported too. What intake and exhaust you have? And how many whp do you have? Thanks. Regars form Peru
Hi , I use bmw 52mm throttles on a custom adapter plate. before this had oversized blacktop throttles (47mm). Had no gains from the 52mm but stuck with them as they look nicer. trumpet length is key.. 38mm od headers. currently It is 150rwkw or just over 200whp. Is a few more vids on it on my channel, if you haven't seen them already
Garage 4age thanks for the anser, what trumpet lenght you would recommend im runnig t3 adapter itb and blacktop oversized 47mm and in exhaust martelius i think 36mm. And how much rpms you run?
@ Intake is longer than most people run. Would have to measure to get exact length. But is a bit over 300mm from the port face to end of trumpet. which gives a decent bump in power around 8000rpm. its worth doing even if you have to run a curved runner for fitment. Im going to do another trumpet length video at some stage that will show this. I rev it to just over 9000rpm.
Garage 4age great, maybe you have some IG or something to talk about 16v preparation?
@ @garage4age is me on insta
Did you guys only notice the failed silicone hosing after the fact? Was there no chance of reinforcing those areas to avoid collapsing, so a clean run could be done?
Only noticed the silicone joiner issue when editing the video. Agree ideally there would be no silicone joiner or a very short one. But there has to be negative pressure to make the silicone joiner suck in. maybe the power loss would have been less with out the joiner, but it would have been still there. If anything the joiner confirms that there is a negative wave at that particular engine rpm.
Can you size down the exhaust pipe at the exhaust tip by one size or two and dyno it? (each step 3mm) due to the smaller diameter at the end of the exhaust it could theoretically gain some exhaust gas velocity... Any thoughts?
I want to try more exhaust stuff in the future, will keep it in mind. from what Ive found so far is to tune the extractors and collector, then run big exhaust so the extractors can do there work without the back pressure of the exhaust causing reversion. not so much of a problem on a normal street engine but this one is running big cam overlap
This would be awesome for a bosuzoku build
Chilled fuel vs regular. Dry ice or regular ice on the fuel rail or fuel cell or however works best
If you want to catch the harmonic wave you should shape the intake like a two-stroke motorcycle exhaust. There are plenty of calculators online to help you fab one the perfect size.
measure now the length of the intake till intake of the cylinder head. now use exactly the n times the length for dyno runs. so you shouid try multiply the wavelength of the harmonic wave.
it would nice to see this same experiment with air conditioning near the tubes
Seria bueno que anexaras a cada ensayo la relacion aire combistible.
Si bien no lo indicas supongo que la ajustaste para cada tipo de tubo. Ya que el efecto resonate demanda mas combustible.
Muy buen ensayo.
The wave that is sent back to the intake is produced at the end of the intake after the bTDC when the piston starts going up but the intake valve is still open. It is normal, especially in high performance engines keep the intake valve open way beyond the bTDC in order to fill the cylinder with the air/fuel mixture in higher RPM due to the inertia of the charge. This is important because at high RPM the piston will move faster and there will be less time to fill the cylinder. The later the intake valve closes and the bigger the valve more will be the return of the charge to the intake at low RPM. The length of the intake pipes can be set up in order to make that "returning wave" hit the throttle body and come back to the cylinder just in time to minimize the losses. That lenght is only optimal for one narrow RPM band. Different lengths improve different RPM bands. But you need to play around with the length between the intake valve and the throttle body, not after the throttle.
hope this was useful
Hi, yes i explained what i was trying to achieve in the video description ^ . The trumpet setup on the last run of the video is what the car normally runs. it is longer than what most people use. Most intake setups will only catch the 3rd and 4th harmonic waves due to being too short, which puts the 2nd harmonic at an unreachable rpm. mine is tuned for the 2nd harmonic at around 8000rpm, which about a 15kw gain. plus also benefits from the 3rd and 4th harmonics at lower rpm.
Hey, do you know which was the first twin four cylinder Toyota made?
Not sure, probably a T or R series engine, both had versions with twin cam (G) heads. but were still only 2 valve per cylinder
@@Garage4age I searched it up and it the 9r which came in the 1600gt 1967-(68)
It hits redlines at 7000 and goes all the way to 9000 with 3 main bearings!
Its should have advantages in the low rpm torque curve.The longer stacks keep the inlet velocity high on lower rpm's to help cylinder filling but is restrictive in higher rpm's.
So it doesn't wonders that it did nothing for your hp.
Whats the setup to get to 200Hp ?
Like to ask your thoughts on this set up for a 1595cc motor recommended by a very good builder in the US:
"i think i would try a large-ish throttle body on a small-ish plenum and runner intake setup.. and
then fine tune by trying various intake tubes. ive had really good luck with small diameter (like
2") yet very long intake tubes that had an almost football shaped, stubby, abrupt expansion
chamber right on the throttle body. the long/thin intake would enhance the bottom end feel but
choke up the top. when i started adding expansion chambers and playing with intake cam
timing, id find that the bottom remained and the top woke up."
Edit: Asking as this tuner/builder was a very very good one but left the scene at his peak. This quoted post was made by him more than ten years ago
Most of the testing i have done is itb based. But I think his idea with the small plenum, Is that it makes the intake pipe act like an extension to the inlet runner. so changing the intake pipe has some effect on power. (i could be wrong here as haven't tested the theory) The testing i done with the big airbox/plenum on itb's, the intake pipes done nothing but restrict the flow. Another thing to note on single throttle setups, is the bigger the plenum the worse the engine will run at low rpm and stall out easier. especially with big cams
@@Garage4age Thanks for the feedback! I really admire the work you do on testing the theory on different tuned lengths, others won't bother documenting and/or sharing their testing
@@Garage4age Not sure if it'd interest you, but how about doing tests on the different types of bellmouths?
www.profblairandassociates.com/pdfs/RET_Bellmouth_Sept.pdf
Perfect for crossing lakes and flooded streets!
Have you found any reliable mathematical formula to actually agree with your successful dyno / runner length results? If so, could you post that formula? Thanks
This very basic calculator will get you close www.bgsoflex.com/intakeln.html from there nothing beats real world testing, since a lot of factors such as cam size and timing, runner shape and the likes can change things.
I wonder what would happen if each trump were a different size
Can't you do that ,but adjusting the pipes length by using volume instead.
You could take in consideration the total intake piping volume ,and adjust it by cutting it,following the cylinder volume ?
Maybe a multiple of cylinder volume would be more easy to work on than guessing on pipe length ?
You are lucky to be able to do all that,i wish i could R&D like that on a dyno.
Go look up T-line subwoofer boxes. Same basic concept. Volume doesn't really matter, tube length and resonant frequency do
@@RobertJeffersonBased It's the same for helmholtz resonators, but you adjust parameters with pipes length on engines,where intake piping has to be a specific diameter for the airflow to keep a certain velocity.
modifying volume will just modify pipe length in this case,you can't play with pipe shape to just modify volume.
@@michaelovitch i think i have misinterpreted what you meant then
Imagine these going through the hood and making a smooth horn like transition into the top panel of the hood.
and it starts to rain
@@topkek7003 Oof, a cylinder nearing the end of the exhaust stroke filling with water.
But a nice sound they do ! :-D
Late reply but could you try to make pulse jet shaped trumpets?
I think that bend before the extenders is a major restriction on the top end. Straight and long with no bends seems to work well from what I've seen.
The length builds low speed torque by increasing velocity while the straight air path is good for top end power.
Have tested bends in another video. if not to sharp they have little to no effect.
Too cool
You should try 10ft runner that theoriecally would match a 5000rpm
where abouts are you based and do you do dyno tuning? ive just finished building my 4age to go back into my starlet and will be looking for a good place to get it tuned, also where did you get the exhaust manifold?
Hey, not really taking on tuning jobs at this point. I made the extractors
Can understand that man, would you be interested in re making that same manifold for some good $$?
@@michaeljarrett3194 Pretty much same reason not taking on tuning. don't have the time at the moment sorry. but will be working on and testing new design that should work even better, at some stage. so may have something in the future
@@Garage4age no stress mate, if you figure something out in the future definitely give me a holla man ill happily throw down some $$ on a decent manifold thats perfectly setup for a starlet 4age conversion
all good. i post most of my stuff up in my project thread on oldschool. so maybe keep a eye on that.
What about Different injector size if possible. Octane rating difference. Valve adjustment if too tight or too loose. Spark plugs. Coolant temps straight coolant Vs just water only. Jus throwing ideas. Lol 😅
ok maybe sick idea
but
electronic individual throttle bodies
so make them close after pressure wave exits intake so you can trap under pressure behind it and open it a bit before valve so air will be accelerated before engine would suck it
one problem, silicon react with vibration. maybe the losing power there?
See the link in pinned comment up top ^
You should try staggered intake runners. Two long, two short. Or do 4 different length runners
From what ive found. Once have found the correct length runner for best overall power. other length runners will have very little advantage in only some parts of the rev range and losses everywhere else. having all different runner lengths could help if wanting to smooth out power curve. but overall I think it would be a disadvantage. not to mention having to tune each cylinder individually.
Maybe pipes of different diameter as i theorize that an improperly sized pipe would slow down air velocity even if the area was greater resulting in power loss or simply move the powerband.
yes i will be pursuing this on actual usable runner lengths at some stage. Ideally the pipe would have had a taper the whole way down. but not that easy to do in a cost effective way at 1m long.
Bro .... are the silicon joiners causing you grief ?? :-))