I get that this is an older video, but what I never understood is that if I have, say, a 9m wide room and I put my speakers 1/3 of way across then I get a 3m 1/4 wavelength between the speaker and the reflective wall - that's an 12m wavelength at 180 degrees out of phase, for around 29 Hz, which is prime to toast the bottom octave . If the room is smaller, say 6m, that's around 43Hz, put the speakers 1 m out and you get 86Hz, at which point you may as well go and buy a set of earbuds. Soffit mounted speakers sound great (OK, they tend to be in studios with a set of big old Brystons behind them) but putting speakers right against the wall will push the canceling frequencies high enough that acoustic absorbers can fix the problem. Sure, we get 1/2 space boundary shelves, but they are dead easy to eq out, vs trying to fix cancellations. For anyone with a room less than big enough to get 4-5m behind the speakers, isn't it a better option to stick them as close to the front wall as possible with a block of glass fibre insulation behind them?
I swear, the answer to most problems is $. aka, "you/we're too poor." Want great sound? Step 1: Get a mansion. Better yet, get a cathedral... Therefore it's best to "know thyself" and learn which compromises you don't mind making.
Just make your own speakers. Then you'll love them because you made them, they'll be taylor made for your taste, and they will something unique a rich guy couldn't buy in a shop.
@@richardcrook2112 that's something of a shot in the dark if you don't know what you're doing. (Measuring equipment, pro modeling software + material properties (so it's not trail & error) + hardware equipment (we in Europe can't just rent power tools as easily as in US.) And after all that, you're still at the mercy of things like placement (which is a luxury not too many apartment dwellers can afford to experiment too much with).
@@Untilitpases I just bought a couple of blanket boxes and put some full range drivers and single tweeter in each. They sound pretty good, you can go to town with padding and dampening material if you make them yourself too. In reference to the video, I'll say now that different CD players often have massive differences in soundstage that are really obvious.
It seems like imaging would also depend on the choices made by the recording and mixing engineers and, to a lesser extent, the mastering engineer. Mic placement, stereo panning, widening, mid/side choices, reverb and other time effects.
Went from a cheap boxed Onkyo system to a decent Sony receiver (upgraded all around speakers before getting the Sony) just changing the receiver made such a difference in the all around sound. I was nearly tricked into thinking I had side speakers while playing stereo. Currently run a 5.1 setup. Sony fronts, Polk center and rears. I know they're not the best far as sound goes but the sq increase was exponential. A svs pb-2000 subwoofer some would say is overkill lol. I care not about that. If it's excessive I can turn it down.
I agree with Paul, but wish to add onto this. There are other factors involved by way of recording technology and speaker technology. For the example of speaker technology, I have the DCM Timeframe 600s. They have two soft dome tweeters on either side of the speaker pointed in a 45 degree angle behind the speaker. This creates a bridge of sound from one speaker to the other. This creates a fantastic sound stage . One of the great tricks is to show people your entire surround setup with all the speakers. Then play a music track in stereo. Then ask them which speakers were working. You watch them point to the center, the rears, and so on only to trick them and say it was just the two floor standing speakers. So, technology/engineering created that scenario. The other is recording. There are two recording technologies that can force a speaker to provide amazing imagining. Q-Sound and Roland Sound Space. The later is one of the most amazing. It can take a sound and make it travel in any direction within the sound space, even forwards and backwards, with just two standard speakers.
Good answer, but... to get good soundstage, image and other things, you need to measure your speaker and need to get a linear phase from listening point, second you need to get a good step response and identical measurements from both speakers at listening point. third if you can get a good FR :))) from my point, this thing gives you a good imaging and soundstage.
well here it is a question, there is a thing that exists that ideal acoustic design is infinite baffle speaker, the speaker driver unit is mounted into the wall so where exactly to speak more or less literal the loudspeaker demands this room/space for breathing?
So to paraphrase, a "well imaged soundstage should come from behind the speakers; never in front". I have to disagree there. I'll describe my setup: My floor standers were about 5 ft apart and about 12 in. above the floor on a raised section in front of my fireplace and about a foot and a half from the front wall with a fireplace in between. The room was about 18x25 ft and a sofa was placed 2/3 of the way into the room from the front wall. On the right was a large opening to the dining room. On the left was a long section of bay window with drapes hanging. While sitting on the sofa, listening one afternoon, I had the most startling experience. I was listening to a cut from John Zorn's Electric Masada 50⁴. Cut number five is called "Yatzar". This entire album was recorded live and one member of the ensemble, Ikue Mori contributed laptop electronics to the live performance. Some minutes in I can't remember the time, Ikue generates a flock of seagulls from her electronics and this flock of seagulls formed over my right shoulder behind my head and expanded all around me. This was a good five or six feet in front of the speakers. It was the most incredible display of imaging I ever heard from my system. No part of that flock came from behind or even between those speakers and it was so unexpected that I was momentarily frightened; and it's what I always try to recreate in setting up any system. That's not to say that I completely disagree with Paul as I can place instruments well behind my speakers as well. I also learned elsewhere that a really good preamp is a necessary component for good sound production. I have come to believe that and Paul mentions that here. Great channel.
Instead of buying taller stool for my speaker I followed one of your advice by putting cd case below front of speaker, just to enough making little angle to the speaker. Then room comes alive with the same vokume. Thanks Paul
Speakers are inanimate. They do not breathe. Sound waves reflect off walls and other flat surfaces. When these reflections arrive close in time with the main signal it ruins imaging. The best way to delay reflected sounds is with distance. Three feet delays reflections 3ms or more. Five feet is even better. This is where the 1/3 rule comes from. Nothing to do with breathing. But really the #1 most important speaker placement for imaging is something Paul never even mentions, absolutely perfectly equidistant and symmetrical placement. This is pure physics, unforgivable he doesn't know this. Without equidistance and symmetry nothing else matters. Next is toe. Lots of toe produces a deep stage with rock solid image focus. Less toe produces a wider stage with less depth and less image focus. Another key fact Paul neglects to mention. OMG 205k viewers misled by Mr Rodgers. This misinformation is a shame, because while many have no choice with respect to distance from walls, almost everyone has options with respect to equidistance and toe.
@@richardcrook2112 Toe is the amount by which the speakers are turned in towards you vs being pointed straight ahead. Like when you're standing, keep your heels on the floor while rotating your toes closer together, that is toe in. If you sit exactly the same distance from two speakers pointed straight ahead you will hear a center image and sound stage. The more the speakers are toed in, pointed more at your head, the more solid the center image and the deeper the soundstage. Try this and listen, you will hear it. Easily. There is no right or wrong, but knowing this can really help a lot in certain rooms. A small room where speakers have to be close to side walls for example, more toe in helps reduce side wall reflections and that will greatly improve imaging without having to do anything else.
Love how You start to answer...rethink...change Perspective..think again and what comes out is pure Knowledge Transfer in the most relaxed but thus precise way. Thank You
Seal's song Crazy has shown me that my setup was bad. He was in a 4 foot wide, two foot high box. I braided 4, 12 Guage speaker wires for my front speakers. He rose to 4 feet. I set my speakers another foot apart and changed my op amps. He sits at 5 feet high and moves more freely between my speakers. The rest of the music has increased to 3 or 4 feet outside of my speakers. It has improved quite a bit. Now, I'm stuck on how to improve it further.
There are such fine and exotic systems available these day it's impossibly unaffordable for most to have the best, or even very good. Very good nears a hundred K just for a couple of speakers, and a few pieces of audio source equipment, control, and amplification. $500K easy if you want the limited Ferrari edition (Pivetta) in audio. PS Audio is just a step above mid-fi when you include everything.
Over 40 years ago I found one or two of the answers to this. First there is a way to mathematically calculate if your speakers focus or uniformly disperse the entire frequency range, low bass to high table, if you know the diameter of the various speakers (15 inch bass up to 1 inch treble or less) and compare that to the frequency of the crossovers. Second there are specific ratios of the room the sound was recorded in and the one it is played back into.
Really thankful to have access to even a small portion of his considerable knowledge. Along with a cave diving channel I found this year, Paul's channel is definitely the most educational and enjoyable content I've came across. I think he found his calling.
For many of us, its just not reasonable or do-able to have a "listening room", for some we have to make our office/gaming desk our main spot for music enjoyment, or our home theatre does double duty for music time....how do you mitigate if you have to place the speakers near a wall? For me, I found putting my bookshelf speakers on small stands raised above the desktop and even just pulling them 8" away from the wall helped tremendously (as opposed to sitting on a shelf right against the wall...)
Polk SRS SDA 1s has the best sound stage and imaging I've ever hear. My room is 22x30 12 in. From the front wall, 8 ft. From the back wall and 30 in from the side walls. You can locate everyone in the band depending on the recording mix which is very important.
If you pull out your speakers too far, you won't have a living room anymore. I think you are better off moving the speakers closer together. that makes it more cohesive. Tower speakers have narrower images and can be more of a problem. the front wall may not be the answer.. . . .
The largest part of your system's "sound potential" rests in it's speakers quality, appropriate size application, and placement. A guitar amplifier can totally change personality and sound with "just" a speaker change. The speaker is almost everything.
yes and no, for mixing and monitoring i'd say that the speakers reach their max potential ONLY ONCE the room has been treated. and it doesn't have to be anything fancy. i fail to realize how and why the majority of studio photos i see have placed most of their proverbial eggs in the rear wall... the front wall is where all the magic happens and it is of paramount importance that one places the MOST absorption material in the FRONT wall and positions monitors roughly 1.5 meters (5 feet) away from the TREATED wall (meaning 5 feet away from front concrete or drywall, but only about 2 feet from the absorption material... the bass energy (frequencies) will pierce right through that thick absorption layer and still reflect off the front wall, but in a much less pervasive way... so, yes speakers need to breath, but if you simply follow the advice of our esteemed host Paul sans treating front wall, you'll still get slap-back and instead of airy sound image you'll get audible and/or inaudible distortion
@@2112res ideally, yes, if your room is long enough, but 2 feet at least is a must, unless you invest in fancy (i.e. expensive) material which might provide superior absorption with only one foot thickness. I used a mattress and thick blankets in the front wall for a total of 3 feet worth of thickness - granted my room was uncharacteristically long and rectangular - but this layer smothered the bass sufficiently without harming any midrange frequencies. in the back wall i had two bass traps in the corners (i actually had bass traps in all four corners of the room) and only a diffuser in the middle portion of the back wall and the results were outstanding (professional sound engineer thought the tracks had been mixed in a high end studio when he heard them, no word of a lie !)
@@motafov Such thickness sounds a bit nuts, but I have heard it just one other time. It's worth investigating! BUT in your original post you state that bass will be piercing and reflecting, and here you are saying bass gets smothered. Leaves me a bit baffled. \8
@@2112res in original post i said bass will pierce because its so powerful and that the suggested thickness will tame it, meaning that without such "overkill" in the front area, the speakers will/would not reach their potential; in other words, the more you can place there, the better the results, keeping in mind the length of the room of course, you DON'T want to end up in a listening position thats smack center in the room...main point simply being that too many folks neglect the front wall, worse still they mix in front of a window (yikes!) OR with their speakers practically touching the front wall...Conduct an experiment, place a shit load of absorbing material in the front and see the drastic difference for yourself (ignore aesthetics for this experiment) and let me know what happens :)
I can't even begin to achieve the necessary spacing in my very small listening room. However, I can still achieve a fairly rudimentary imaging effect, whilst eschewing the recommended distancing. My seated distance from the speakers has to be less than one speaker from the other and because I'm very deaf in my right ear, I have to increase the balance bias in favour of the speaker nearest that ear. It's a frustrating and difficult procedure, but eventually I seem to get the balance correct and create a small and rather shallow sound stage. It's clearly far from ideal, but I can still get pleasure from the sound itself if not always its shape, dynamic and sense of presence. My only consolation is in knowing that however much I'm tempted by all the brilliant, expensive and acoustic miracles at the high end of the market, with my hearing, it wouldn't make the slightest audio difference to my listening pleasure, so better to stick with what I've got! (and in any case, I couldn't afford it)
The secret of getting a good imaging that is something almost nobody gets is to kill all speaker reflections possible, I had a 11 x 13 room which is small but using a mirror and placing it on walls and ceiling wherever I saw the speaker I put an ASC panel, also my floor had carpet and in the back of speakers 5 long ASC panels and 3 behind the seat, DO NOT COVER ENTIRE ROOM with absorption because it makes an annoying flu sensation and there is no need to do that, with strategically positioned panels is more than enough, everybody that hear my system asks if I have a speaker in the center which is only achievable with perfect rooms acoustics and speaker positioning.
Paul - Thank you for sharing Harry Pearson’s “Rule of Thirds.” I enjoy thinking how that rule pretends to image composition also. “Giving things room to move” as you say. Is anybody working on speakers with wheels?
I have a small room (with too much stuff in it) and its impossible to set my speakers optimally from the walls. It's the main reason i haven't upgraded any of my components since it would go to waste without proper speaker placement. As a result, i have spent more money on headphones and headphone gear.
Have a Q. I have an Onkyo AVR HTR 993 7.2 and an Optoma UHD 4K HDR capable projector. I m trying to play 4K HDR content but am not able to, either pic or audio or both wld go haywire. Please suggest what can b done, I m v happy with my AVR otherwise n dnt intent to replace it.
This microphone explanation explains what I'm hearing. I can totally visualize where the speakers should be without measuring stuff. This is an a-ha moment for me. Thank You for the simple and easy to understand explanation.
For those of you who are Republican appointed SCOTUS Justices .... Paul, if I have diffusers behind the speakers or absorbing material, can I improve imaging even on a small room? Imaging is still little understood - we perceive sound with our brains, not our ears, and that complicate things. There are two or three techniques for recording orchestras and classical music (that I know off): the ORTF with two microfones forming a V pointing out, the X placement and one that uses 4 microphones that I thought was the ORTF one. All the rest are manufactured stereo and are hard to do. Orchestras and other ensembles are the best for these techniques - even small groups. There are 2 examples of recordings I remember: the Paco de Lucia, John McLaughin and Al di Meola album and one little known even in Brazil, "Valsas e Choros" (Waltzes and Choros) recorded with natural acoustics. The first one sound to me as if they had one track for each guitar and then mixed it in Stereo; the second was recorded with two microphones on small theater in Rio de Janeiro. th-cam.com/video/_X7V0yAofeU/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/S0EOZyj53l8/w-d-xo.html Stereo imaging is a magic!
I was struck by what was said about “speakers breathing room.” It’s not “breathing room” per se, but proper speaker/s placement, finding the correct “play back” RATIO, for “FULL” sound stage.
Funny story: when I went on "walkabout" in the very early 90s as a young lad, I had to sell my hifi and also leave behind all of my hifi buddies I met when I was briefly in the business of selling high end audio. I was so desperate to play with hifi equipment that one day I resorted to messing with a CD boom box a buddy who I was staying with had in the middle of a room and tweaking it until I actually got a decent "micro soundstage" out of it. It's speakers were, oh, about 18" or so apart and I had it sitting on a milk crate with me sitting cross legged about three feet away. I almost ruined my back listening to different CDs. It was the best I had to play with and I laugh at what impractical lengths I went to to make it just a little better.
This reminds me of a tip I got about subwoofer placement. Put the sub where you gonna sit and then crawl around in the room until you can hear the best bass, .. that's where the sub should be
Hi Paul, very interesting explanation. I would like to ask about surround sound from stereo set up. I had some cheap speakers from KEF and could hear the sound round my head. Now I've got some more expensive and bigger speakers from Monitor Audio which generally sound better but there is no 3D sound. Is it either a room size, set up or stereo shouldn't sound in 3D ?
I did 1/3 1/3 1/3 as you said and a miracle happened on the Kania river in Gostyń, Poland. Let the unbelievers find out. Big thanks. I would like to add that I was married and it is possible now.
I recently moved and my speakers went from being 18” from the wall to 24” and I can’t agree more on the benefits. It has really added that sense of depth (soundstage). It has also helped a lot with imaging. However because my speakers are fairly low-end (Klipsch R-51M), the imaging is still not quite there.
Posting this on Sunday 8/9/2020 at 1:45 am. So after watching this I literally just repositioned my speakers (further away from the front wall) and WOW! WHAT A DIFFERENCE! Almost sound like I have new speakers. The details and overall balance are significantly better! As usual Good stuff here Paul👍🏽
There are many factors to get the best imaging as Paul mention in this video. But I would say that to get the best imaging firstly the speakers have to have a great phase integration between drivers. That is the key to get the so call "3d image". You should hear one point of sound source. You should not hear tweeter here, midrange there and so on. The next step is to have a proper placement of the speakers in your room. The sounds we hear in a room is not only generated by the speakers but from reflexions as well. Avoiding standing waves and resonances will help you get a clean sound without reflexions. Distance between speakers as well as distance to sitting position is also key to get it correctly. Important in this point is to know the recommendations from the speaker manufacturer. One common problem I see in many rooms is that people tend to have the speakers on axis to the listening position. This setup usually narrows soundstage and plays against proper imaging in most cases. I would recommend to start with the speakers without toe in, and slowly start to toe them in thill you are happy with the soundstage. With a proper design loudspeaker you'll be able to get depth, space, air, all of those words we like to hear to describe a 3d image from a stereo setup.
"But I would say that to get the best imaging firstly the speakers have to have a great phase integration between drivers." I was working with full range (FR) drivers and doing stuff to get extra khz from them for phase aligned sound, and now I have finally done it and have made the best pair of speakers I have ever made. I used a 3" FR driver and drilled a hole through it (a major task) and used another micro FR driver (stripped of it's cone) and I glued a thin stick to the voice cole tube of the micro FR driver and poked the stick through the hole in the 3" FR driver and glued the modified micro FR driver to the back of the 3" FR driver (while carefully lining up the stick in the hole). On the other end Of the stick (which is now at the speaker front) I glued a tiny foil "whizzer" and it's in phase with the 3" FR cone (stick is just the right length). It gives the FR driver more khz and sounds way different to most $10 FR drivers (way more top end "sting"). And the metal foil whizzer (1/4" big) makes the cymbals sound metallic and the ride cymbal really happens (unlike with normal $10 RF drivers). Mine cost $5 each and $3 for the mico ones. Amazing "3D effect". I call it the the "headphones effect". I built them with the boxes along with extra 6" woofers.
Hello Paul , you take two microphones in small room to recreate stereo , how you deal with the polar pattern of each microphone, it’s sure you will have phase problems and the result will be muddy or picky depend of the frequency and the position in the room .the timbre and the dynamic will be false. This phenomen will be appear wathever the size of the room
I read once that the best image (i.e. perfect 3D soundstage) you will get in anechoic room and the worst in a reverberant room This was an extremization clearly But what i got is that room reflections are in the end the worst enemy of a great soundstage. When you block reflections from a wall the wall will disappear sonically speaking. Amazing sensation indeed. And also outdoor you will get a great sound stage ... but there will be ambient noise of course.
The rule of thirds won't work for my media room/home theater. 13 ft wide, but 27 ft to the rear wall. My mains are 20" from the rear wall, but one is 20" from the side wall, while the other is only about 6" away. I just can't accommodate more space for the close speaker because I'd be blocking my screen. I do have nearly an equidistant triangle between my MLP and the mains, though. I just cannot afford to build a room around a speaker setup, unfortunately. I suppose this is one reason I've never bought better speakers than my Andrew Jones and my Klipsch setups.
Thank you very much for your explanations which I totally agree with. By experimenting with multiple loudspeaker placements myself, I have come to the same conclusions as yours. ❤😂❤
Agree that the SFO Tilson-Thomas Mahlers are exceptional in soundstaging! A too-little acknowledged factor of good imaging is a very close match between left and right speakers in both time and frequency domains, a result of close manufacturing tolerances or "hand"-matching of drivers. Left-right localization of an individual sound source depends on the relative amplitude and/or signal arrival time. If L&R speakers don't match closely, there can be a zone of confusion created as different frequencies "argue" with your brain over localization, resulting in smearing, very similar to the "circle of confusion" of an out-of-focus camera lens as different areas of the lens disagree on the spatial location of a subject element at the film plane. Similarly, fore-aft localization is largely dependent on frequency content and relative amplitude as air attenuates frequencies selectively with distance, giving a trained brain clues to distance. Relative arrival times are also important. Here again, disagreement between left and right speakers can confuse the ear and brain, as can nonlinear frequency response, causing perceived fore-aft smearing. Listening to precisely-imaging speakers is a joy as the elements of the music stand out in clear relief and the structure of the arrangement and performance becomes clearly apparent.
Good imaging is something I appreciate and something I put effort towards achieving. It's my favorite thing about a good sound system. Being able to hear the musicians solidly located in space, being able to "feel" exactly where each one is, is a magical experience. If you haven't heard a system that images well, I strongly encourage you to experiment with your own system, or seek out and listen to one that is well set up. A big revelation for me happened when I was moving into a new apartment in the 1970s. I was not yet an audiophile. To take a break from unpacking and to see what kind of FM reception I could get in this new location, I put my bookshelf speakers on top of boxes, about five or six feet apart and in the middle of the room, hooked them up to my receiver (attaching my dipole antenna made from speaker wire), and found a jazz station. I was startled; before that moment, I wasn't aware of imaging, even as a concept. I thought all there was to stereo was a vague, left, center, right arrangement of voices and instruments. Suddenly, I heard the instruments floating in the room and was amazed and curious about what was going on. This got me on the road to being seriously interested in music reproduction, and I eventually started reading audio magazines, visiting audio stores, and talking to people about sound systems (and in doing so, I learned how many nice systems are set up really badly). I have my current system set up so that I have a dedicated two-channel system that shares the front speakers with a five-channel home theater system. (When I got a home theater system, I added three speakers, an AV preamp and a 3-channel power amp, but kept my original stereo setup intact for music listening.) So, I have a center speaker, even though its amp isn't turned on for stereo listening. As a demonstration of stereo imaging, I've commented to a guest how clearly we can hear the singer on the center speaker, had them agree, then told them that the center speaker isn't actually on. My guest will usually go stick their ear up to the center speaker to confirm, and are amazed at how just the stereo pair can create the illusion of that centered voice, floating in space. I feel that a good home theater system needs a good L+R stereo setup as its foundation; the center and surrounds are just enhancements. It's broken my heart to help friends set up pretty nice systems, but have them cruelly compromise sound quality in favor of room design. In the setups I've had, and that I've helped other people set up, I've usually found that having the stereo speakers and listener in something close to an equilateral triangle is a good starting point. Much of the time it works best to point the speakers slightly towards the listening position, but this varies a lot with different speakers; some sound best pointed exactly straight. Like Paul says in this video, it usually helps to keep the speakers out from the wall, if possible. As Paul also mentions, don't forget to experiment with the listening position; you don't necessarily want to sit with your couch or chair jammed against the wall, either. It pays to experiment, scooting the speakers around, trying different distances between speakers, distances to the listener, distances from the wall, angling the speakers towards the listening position. Sometimes a very small change will yield a surprising improvement. I've also discovered over the years that it is usually better to have your speakers on one of the longer walls of the room. Most people seem to do the opposite, perhaps to get more distance from the speakers. My only guess is that this lessens early reflections from the sides of the room. Your mileage may vary, but it's something to experiment with. After writing the above, I just saw another video where Paul answers the same question, but gives additional details, including speaker toe-in: th-cam.com/video/vBfBAMR8zHU/w-d-xo.html
How does a good preamp expand the sound? I can understand less noise and greater headroom, but I don't understand the expansion part. I'm thinking like expanded stereo separation
Wow!!!! This video changed my life. Thank you so much Paul. Long story short.... I got hearing aids. Wow that's better. I can hear! So, 8 months later i have completely revamped my entire surround sound set up. And I realized I loved music more than I do movies... Hmmmm. Enter Pauls video. All I can say I Holy Cow I had no idea music could possibly sound this good. Once I pulled the speakers off the wall about 4 ft. it sounded pretty good. I ran a few tests with REW and played with the crossover slopes and such, re-aligned the subs to mains. That's when the magic happened. When Paul suggested the sound comes from behind the speaker I didn't completely understand. Trust me, I know now! for those of you who have never experienced this I'll try to explain what it sound like for you. As I sit in my living room and listen to music I have to admit that I can't hear any of the 7.2.4 speakers. I can no longer pinpoint where the sound is created because the room is creating the sound. Yes, the room creates the sound. I no longer hear the speakers. Yes, when I open my eyes I can feel/ sense the sound is coming from behind the speakers. Essentially the entire back wall seems to be about 20 feet farther back than it actually is. And because of the atmos speakers the heighth in the room seem to have doubled. Music that used to sound pretty good now sounds like it's actually being played in my room. You can feel the pressure change as the musician sways his sax from side to side. I got up last night and walked around the room to see what changes I experienced. Like Paul says, It's supposed to reproduce what was played live. And wow does it. Even when I walked behind the speakers it sounded unlike anything I've heard before. I just watched this video again and I'm going to pull the speakers another 2 feet from the wall. Yeah, my wife is that awesome.
So in a 12 foot long room placing the speakers a third of the way in is at 4 feet. Nearly all advice says between 3 and 7 feet is to be avoided because of speaker boundry interference response. So confused.
The rule of thirds is an excellent starting point along with judicious toe-in or wall mounted diffusion panels to minimize first reflections, especially in a narrow room. However for my ears the "coherence" of the speaker is equally if not more important for excellent imaging. Coherence within a speaker means that the drivers are well integrated with each other- e.g. woofer, midrange, tweeter etc such that the sound throughout the frequency range appears to be coming from a single source and not bouncing between the individual drivers. In an ideal room a speaker with poor coherence between the drivers will lead to image wander and ultimately frustration for the listener. Some speakers do this well, others do not. Careful auditioning is the key to finding speakers with excellent driver coherence.
Hi Paul, excellent video as always. I have question that I am Wrestling with: Should I use 2 different book shelf speakers in the same room. Not Surround sound, but as stereo ? I have just purchased Elac Debut 6.2 (which to my ear are excellent), and was given New Fluances Signature Bookshelf at very good discount. I was debating returning one set, but now play them simulatneously. They kinda of compliment each other to some extent, but the Fluances need more Oomph on the sound volume to equate sound levels. The Fluances offer less separation and little less brightness than the Elacs. Advice and counsel appreciated..... THX and be safe everyone.
darryl austin speakers should be placed far from rear wall if you Want good soundstage and imaging. Rear ported too. You need to have place around speakers to place virtuall artists .
Surey the way the audio was recorded would then affect the imaging? In your example, They could have placed the two microphones in a different location? Or is this a standard when recording audio? If so then how would electronic music be recorded if no mics?
I cannot say Thank You enough, for the 'perfect' sound I am now able to enjoy, using your DSD Dac. That was the constant constraint I dealt with in getting my stereo to sound wonderful. Now, with the DSD Dac, I am completely satisfied. My journey is now complete, and I am able to simply Listen and enjoy. Thank you, and Ted Smith.
Just adding to the information that Paul already stated. He forgot to mention pulling the speakers away from the side walls and trying to position them symmetrically. The listening position ideally would be along the centerline of the room and speakers. Getting better imaging has to do with equal path lengths between the listening position and the speakers as well as having similar room reflections on both sides. ( as opposed to one open space on one side and wall on other) Also having the speaker wire runs equal lengths is the most important to attaining better imaging and focus. Symmetry is the key here. Measuring and placing the speakers to the nearest 1/16" form the listening position, side walls, and front walls can dramatically improve the listening experience.
@@2112res Head movement is not as critical because it all comes down to getting the arrival times at the listening position of the sound waves to coincide. One this magic happens, the music sounds correct from anywhere in the room. Yes, the imaging changes with regards to head movement but tonality and other qualities of the reproduction come into play. Hard to explain with words.....easier to demonstrate in person.
Subscribed and thank you from my heart.....
I like your explanations. I find this one very easy ti grasp.
Thanks!
Educational and cozy, self-effacing entertainer with a wicked sense of humor. Ask Paul
thanks for sharing your knowledge. Really¡¡
This was a good one.
I learned something, thanks
I Love ❤ the dog!
Nice intro music.
Wish I had teachers like Paul
I get that this is an older video, but what I never understood is that if I have, say, a 9m wide room and I put my speakers 1/3 of way across then I get a 3m 1/4 wavelength between the speaker and the reflective wall - that's an 12m wavelength at 180 degrees out of phase, for around 29 Hz, which is prime to toast the bottom octave . If the room is smaller, say 6m, that's around 43Hz, put the speakers 1 m out and you get 86Hz, at which point you may as well go and buy a set of earbuds. Soffit mounted speakers sound great (OK, they tend to be in studios with a set of big old Brystons behind them) but putting speakers right against the wall will push the canceling frequencies high enough that acoustic absorbers can fix the problem. Sure, we get 1/2 space boundary shelves, but they are dead easy to eq out, vs trying to fix cancellations. For anyone with a room less than big enough to get 4-5m behind the speakers, isn't it a better option to stick them as close to the front wall as possible with a block of glass fibre insulation behind them?
Your "room to breathe" is a good ratio of reflected sound from the rear output of the speakers. Don't be afraid to say it.
I swear, the answer to most problems is $. aka, "you/we're too poor."
Want great sound? Step 1: Get a mansion. Better yet, get a cathedral...
Therefore it's best to "know thyself" and learn which compromises you don't mind making.
Just make your own speakers. Then you'll love them because you made them, they'll be taylor made for your taste, and they will something unique a rich guy couldn't buy in a shop.
@@richardcrook2112 that's something of a shot in the dark if you don't know what you're doing. (Measuring equipment, pro modeling software + material properties (so it's not trail & error) + hardware equipment (we in Europe can't just rent power tools as easily as in US.)
And after all that, you're still at the mercy of things like placement (which is a luxury not too many apartment dwellers can afford to experiment too much with).
@@Untilitpases I just bought a couple of blanket boxes and put some full range drivers and single tweeter in each. They sound pretty good, you can go to town with padding and dampening material if you make them yourself too. In reference to the video, I'll say now that different CD players often have massive differences in soundstage that are really obvious.
It seems like imaging would also depend on the choices made by the recording and mixing engineers and, to a lesser extent, the mastering engineer. Mic placement, stereo panning, widening, mid/side choices, reverb and other time effects.
Went from a cheap boxed Onkyo system to a decent Sony receiver (upgraded all around speakers before getting the Sony) just changing the receiver made such a difference in the all around sound. I was nearly tricked into thinking I had side speakers while playing stereo. Currently run a 5.1 setup. Sony fronts, Polk center and rears. I know they're not the best far as sound goes but the sq increase was exponential. A svs pb-2000 subwoofer some would say is overkill lol. I care not about that. If it's excessive I can turn it down.
What can we do if we have to push speakers to the Wall? Any Materials that can compemsate?
I can only imagine how a high ceiling would help.
Paul, you have a great Image
That was a great analogy & answer. Thank you, Paul!
I agree with Paul, but wish to add onto this.
There are other factors involved by way of recording technology and speaker technology.
For the example of speaker technology, I have the DCM Timeframe 600s. They have two soft dome tweeters on either side of the speaker pointed in a 45 degree angle behind the speaker. This creates a bridge of sound from one speaker to the other. This creates a fantastic sound stage . One of the great tricks is to show people your entire surround setup with all the speakers. Then play a music track in stereo. Then ask them which speakers were working. You watch them point to the center, the rears, and so on only to trick them and say it was just the two floor standing speakers. So, technology/engineering created that scenario.
The other is recording. There are two recording technologies that can force a speaker to provide amazing imagining. Q-Sound and Roland Sound Space. The later is one of the most amazing. It can take a sound and make it travel in any direction within the sound space, even forwards and backwards, with just two standard speakers.
I have a set of DCM Timeframe 600s also...I love them
New Arya Audio Labs AirBlade HYPE Loudspeaker Driver
The best Loudspeaker Drivers in the World period !...😍🤩😃🙂
As always, great information! Thank You!
Have you done a video listing your favorite hi fi albums to "test" speakers on? If so please link me. Thanks.
Don't forget the recording engineer.
Good answer, but... to get good soundstage, image and other things, you need to measure your speaker and need to get a linear phase from listening point, second you need to get a good step response and identical measurements from both speakers at listening point. third if you can get a good FR :))) from my point, this thing gives you a good imaging and soundstage.
well here it is a question, there is a thing that exists that ideal acoustic design is infinite baffle speaker, the speaker driver unit is mounted into the wall so where exactly to speak more or less literal the loudspeaker demands this room/space for breathing?
Old paul, such a good people person, great company leader. Never being to serious while being ultra professional.
So to paraphrase, a "well imaged soundstage should come from behind the speakers; never in front". I have to disagree there.
I'll describe my setup:
My floor standers were about 5 ft apart and about 12 in. above the floor on a raised section in front of my fireplace and about a foot and a half from the front wall with a fireplace in between. The room was about 18x25 ft and a sofa was placed 2/3 of the way into the room from the front wall. On the right was a large opening to the dining room. On the left was a long section of bay window with drapes hanging. While sitting on the sofa, listening one afternoon, I had the most startling experience. I was listening to a cut from John Zorn's Electric Masada 50⁴. Cut number five is called "Yatzar". This entire album was recorded live and one member of the ensemble, Ikue Mori contributed laptop electronics to the live performance. Some minutes in I can't remember the time, Ikue generates a flock of seagulls from her electronics and this flock of seagulls formed over my right shoulder behind my head and expanded all around me. This was a good five or six feet in front of the speakers. It was the most incredible display of imaging I ever heard from my system. No part of that flock came from behind or even between those speakers and it was so unexpected that I was momentarily frightened; and it's what I always try to recreate in setting up any system. That's not to say that I completely disagree with Paul as I can place instruments well behind my speakers as well.
I also learned elsewhere that a really good preamp is a necessary component for good sound production. I have come to believe that and Paul mentions that here.
Great channel.
Most of us do not have rooms large enough to maintain loud speakers in one third of the area. Maybe they could be furnished with a carpet pad.
I wonder if Paul has any experience or opinion on the way electronic Church organ manufacturers position their speakers in churches?
Love the song Ventura highway
Dolby Atmos setup seems to be the best fix for my limited apartment space problems. Image is amazingly huge now.
What a great description, of flipping the mics around
great tips and a great analogy
Will it work if i have soft cloth / curtains behind speakers in this case? Or only hard wall preferred?
Curtains are better because they'll dampen the sound and you won't get it reflecting off the wall, making boomy muffled effects.
need to turn up the gain on the mic
Instead of buying taller stool for my speaker
I followed one of your advice by putting cd case below front of speaker, just to enough making little angle to the speaker.
Then room comes alive with the same vokume. Thanks Paul
Speakers are inanimate. They do not breathe. Sound waves reflect off walls and other flat surfaces. When these reflections arrive close in time with the main signal it ruins imaging. The best way to delay reflected sounds is with distance. Three feet delays reflections 3ms or more. Five feet is even better. This is where the 1/3 rule comes from. Nothing to do with breathing.
But really the #1 most important speaker placement for imaging is something Paul never even mentions, absolutely perfectly equidistant and symmetrical placement. This is pure physics, unforgivable he doesn't know this.
Without equidistance and symmetry nothing else matters. Next is toe. Lots of toe produces a deep stage with rock solid image focus. Less toe produces a wider stage with less depth and less image focus. Another key fact Paul neglects to mention. OMG 205k viewers misled by Mr Rodgers.
This misinformation is a shame, because while many have no choice with respect to distance from walls, almost everyone has options with respect to equidistance and toe.
This is good info, can I ask - what is toe?
@@richardcrook2112 Toe is the amount by which the speakers are turned in towards you vs being pointed straight ahead. Like when you're standing, keep your heels on the floor while rotating your toes closer together, that is toe in.
If you sit exactly the same distance from two speakers pointed straight ahead you will hear a center image and sound stage. The more the speakers are toed in, pointed more at your head, the more solid the center image and the deeper the soundstage. Try this and listen, you will hear it. Easily. There is no right or wrong, but knowing this can really help a lot in certain rooms. A small room where speakers have to be close to side walls for example, more toe in helps reduce side wall reflections and that will greatly improve imaging without having to do anything else.
Love how You start to answer...rethink...change Perspective..think again and what comes out is pure Knowledge Transfer in the most relaxed but thus precise way.
Thank You
Seal's song Crazy has shown me that my setup was bad. He was in a 4 foot wide, two foot high box. I braided 4, 12 Guage speaker wires for my front speakers. He rose to 4 feet. I set my speakers another foot apart and changed my op amps. He sits at 5 feet high and moves more freely between my speakers. The rest of the music has increased to 3 or 4 feet outside of my speakers. It has improved quite a bit. Now, I'm stuck on how to improve it further.
Blew my mind. That was the best way to describe where the music should be coming from. Now off to change my entire music room 😂
A good recording!!!
I don't know if I am going about this correctly or not, but what is the procedure one follows when one wants to ask Paul a question about one's hi-fi?
www.psaudio.com/ask-paul/
So u cant use headphones 4 imaging ?
You should always start off by explaining what imaging is.
There are such fine and exotic systems available these day it's impossibly unaffordable for most to have the best, or even very good. Very good nears a hundred K just for a couple of speakers, and a few pieces of audio source equipment, control, and amplification. $500K easy if you want the limited Ferrari edition (Pivetta) in audio. PS Audio is just a step above mid-fi when you include everything.
Thanks for the insight and great videos
That is the best explanation I've heard period
I still watch your videos from years back. RIP Arnie✌️
Over 40 years ago I found one or two of the answers to this. First there is a way to mathematically calculate if your speakers focus or uniformly disperse the entire frequency range, low bass to high table, if you know the diameter of the various speakers (15 inch bass up to 1 inch treble or less) and compare that to the frequency of the crossovers. Second there are specific ratios of the room the sound was recorded in and the one it is played back into.
The Golden Triangle works well.
I am convinced that, Paul, Is the icon of audiophiles. Good personality, sincere, humble with friendly opinions. I am learning.
Couldn't agree more. 💯💯💯
No doubt about it!
He's so smart, laid back, and humorous. He reminds me of my supervisor.
I agree and he doesn't seem to mind sharing knowledge with us, and he makes some pretty neat gear too
Really thankful to have access to even a small portion of his considerable knowledge. Along with a cave diving channel I found this year, Paul's channel is definitely the most educational and enjoyable content I've came across. I think he found his calling.
Whoa, what if I have front-firing speakers (triangle)
why are the dimensions of music room #2 not a replica of Arnie's listening room?
For many of us, its just not reasonable or do-able to have a "listening room", for some we have to make our office/gaming desk our main spot for music enjoyment, or our home theatre does double duty for music time....how do you mitigate if you have to place the speakers near a wall? For me, I found putting my bookshelf speakers on small stands raised above the desktop and even just pulling them 8" away from the wall helped tremendously (as opposed to sitting on a shelf right against the wall...)
Polk SRS SDA 1s has the best sound stage and imaging I've ever hear. My room is 22x30 12 in. From the front wall, 8 ft. From the back wall and 30 in from the side walls. You can locate everyone in the band depending on the recording mix which is very important.
huh?
My biggest factors for this are distance and angle of the speakers. Toe-in and distance of the speakers make the biggest difference of all.
If you pull out your speakers too far, you won't have a living room anymore. I think you are better off moving the speakers closer together. that makes it more cohesive. Tower speakers have narrower images and can be more of a problem. the front wall may not be the answer.. . . .
That's an interesting point about tower speakers, I never thought of that.
...and good source content.
The largest part of your system's "sound potential" rests in it's speakers quality, appropriate size application, and placement. A guitar amplifier can totally change personality and sound with "just" a speaker change. The speaker is almost everything.
yes and no, for mixing and monitoring i'd say that the speakers reach their max potential ONLY ONCE the room has been treated. and it doesn't have to be anything fancy. i fail to realize how and why the majority of studio photos i see have placed most of their proverbial eggs in the rear wall... the front wall is where all the magic happens and it is of paramount importance that one places the MOST absorption material in the FRONT wall and positions monitors roughly 1.5 meters (5 feet) away from the TREATED wall (meaning 5 feet away from front concrete or drywall, but only about 2 feet from the absorption material... the bass energy (frequencies) will pierce right through that thick absorption layer and still reflect off the front wall, but in a much less pervasive way... so, yes speakers need to breath, but if you simply follow the advice of our esteemed host Paul sans treating front wall, you'll still get slap-back and instead of airy sound image you'll get audible and/or inaudible distortion
@@motafov are you saying material should be 3 feet thick?!
@@2112res ideally, yes, if your room is long enough, but 2 feet at least is a must, unless you invest in fancy (i.e. expensive) material which might provide superior absorption with only one foot thickness. I used a mattress and thick blankets in the front wall for a total of 3 feet worth of thickness - granted my room was uncharacteristically long and rectangular - but this layer smothered the bass sufficiently without harming any midrange frequencies. in the back wall i had two bass traps in the corners (i actually had bass traps in all four corners of the room) and only a diffuser in the middle portion of the back wall and the results were outstanding (professional sound engineer thought the tracks had been mixed in a high end studio when he heard them, no word of a lie !)
@@motafov Such thickness sounds a bit nuts, but I have heard it just one other time. It's worth investigating! BUT in your original post you state that bass will be piercing and reflecting, and here you are saying bass gets smothered. Leaves me a bit baffled. \8
@@2112res in original post i said bass will pierce because its so powerful and that the suggested thickness will tame it, meaning that without such "overkill" in the front area, the speakers will/would not reach their potential; in other words, the more you can place there, the better the results, keeping in mind the length of the room of course, you DON'T want to end up in a listening position thats smack center in the room...main point simply being that too many folks neglect the front wall, worse still they mix in front of a window (yikes!) OR with their speakers practically touching the front wall...Conduct an experiment, place a shit load of absorbing material in the front and see the drastic difference for yourself (ignore aesthetics for this experiment) and let me know what happens :)
I can't even begin to achieve the necessary spacing in my very small listening room. However, I can still achieve a fairly rudimentary imaging effect, whilst eschewing the recommended distancing. My seated distance from the speakers has to be less than one speaker from the other and because I'm very deaf in my right ear, I have to increase the balance bias in favour of the speaker nearest that ear. It's a frustrating and difficult procedure, but eventually I seem to get the balance correct and create a small and rather shallow sound stage. It's clearly far from ideal, but I can still get pleasure from the sound itself if not always its shape, dynamic and sense of presence. My only consolation is in knowing that however much I'm tempted by all the brilliant, expensive and acoustic miracles at the high end of the market, with my hearing, it wouldn't make the slightest audio difference to my listening pleasure, so better to stick with what I've got! (and in any case, I couldn't afford it)
The secret of getting a good imaging that is something almost nobody gets is to kill all speaker reflections possible, I had a 11 x 13 room which is small but using a mirror and placing it on walls and ceiling wherever I saw the speaker I put an ASC panel, also my floor had carpet and in the back of speakers 5 long ASC panels and 3 behind the seat, DO NOT COVER ENTIRE ROOM with absorption because it makes an annoying flu sensation and there is no need to do that, with strategically positioned panels is more than enough, everybody that hear my system asks if I have a speaker in the center which is only achievable with perfect rooms acoustics and speaker positioning.
5 second answer: Pull your speakers away from walls!
How about imaging/sound stage on headphones
L-R pair matching is really important.
Paul - Thank you for sharing Harry Pearson’s “Rule of Thirds.” I enjoy thinking how that rule pretends to image composition also. “Giving things room to move” as you say. Is anybody working on speakers with wheels?
I have a small room (with too much stuff in it) and its impossible to set my speakers optimally from the walls. It's the main reason i haven't upgraded any of my components since it would go to waste without proper speaker placement. As a result, i have spent more money on headphones and headphone gear.
Have a Q. I have an Onkyo AVR HTR 993 7.2 and an Optoma UHD 4K HDR capable projector. I m trying to play 4K HDR content but am not able to, either pic or audio or both wld go haywire. Please suggest what can b done, I m v happy with my AVR otherwise n dnt intent to replace it.
This microphone explanation explains what I'm hearing. I can totally visualize where the speakers should be without measuring stuff. This is an a-ha moment for me. Thank You for the simple and easy to understand explanation.
and now change the phase of the speakers to compensate the turning around of the microphones:)
For those of you who are Republican appointed SCOTUS Justices ....
Paul, if I have diffusers behind the speakers or absorbing material, can I improve imaging even on a small room?
Imaging is still little understood - we perceive sound with our brains, not our ears, and that complicate things. There are two or three techniques for recording orchestras and classical music (that I know off): the ORTF with two microfones forming a V pointing out, the X placement and one that uses 4 microphones that I thought was the ORTF one. All the rest are manufactured stereo and are hard to do. Orchestras and other ensembles are the best for these techniques - even small groups. There are 2 examples of recordings I remember: the Paco de Lucia, John McLaughin and Al di Meola album and one little known even in Brazil, "Valsas e Choros" (Waltzes and Choros) recorded with natural acoustics. The first one sound to me as if they had one track for each guitar and then mixed it in Stereo; the second was recorded with two microphones on small theater in Rio de Janeiro.
th-cam.com/video/_X7V0yAofeU/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/S0EOZyj53l8/w-d-xo.html
Stereo imaging is a magic!
I was struck by what was said about “speakers breathing room.” It’s not “breathing room” per se, but proper speaker/s placement, finding the correct “play back” RATIO, for “FULL” sound stage.
Funny story: when I went on "walkabout" in the very early 90s as a young lad, I had to sell my hifi and also leave behind all of my hifi buddies I met when I was briefly in the business of selling high end audio. I was so desperate to play with hifi equipment that one day I resorted to messing with a CD boom box a buddy who I was staying with had in the middle of a room and tweaking it until I actually got a decent "micro soundstage" out of it. It's speakers were, oh, about 18" or so apart and I had it sitting on a milk crate with me sitting cross legged about three feet away. I almost ruined my back listening to different CDs. It was the best I had to play with and I laugh at what impractical lengths I went to to make it just a little better.
This reminds me of a tip I got about subwoofer placement.
Put the sub where you gonna sit and then crawl around in the room until you can hear the best bass, .. that's where the sub should be
that might be the very worst place to put a sub, unless you just want as much bass as possible no matter how it sounds
Hi Paul, very interesting explanation. I would like to ask about surround sound from stereo set up. I had some cheap speakers from KEF and could hear the sound round my head. Now I've got some more expensive and bigger speakers from Monitor Audio which generally sound better but there is no 3D sound. Is it either a room size, set up or stereo shouldn't sound in 3D ?
Boy Paul, you really lost me on the microphone analogy...
I did 1/3 1/3 1/3 as you said and a miracle happened on the Kania river in Gostyń, Poland. Let the unbelievers find out. Big thanks. I would like to add that I was married and it is possible now.
I recently moved and my speakers went from being 18” from the wall to 24” and I can’t agree more on the benefits. It has really added that sense of depth (soundstage). It has also helped a lot with imaging. However because my speakers are fairly low-end (Klipsch R-51M), the imaging is still not quite there.
Posting this on Sunday 8/9/2020 at 1:45 am. So after watching this I literally just repositioned my speakers (further away from the front wall) and WOW! WHAT A DIFFERENCE! Almost sound like I have new speakers. The details and overall balance are significantly better! As usual Good stuff here Paul👍🏽
There are many factors to get the best imaging as Paul mention in this video. But I would say that to get the best imaging firstly the speakers have to have a great phase integration between drivers. That is the key to get the so call "3d image".
You should hear one point of sound source. You should not hear tweeter here, midrange there and so on. The next step is to have a proper placement of the speakers in your room. The sounds we hear in a room is not only generated by the speakers but from reflexions as well. Avoiding standing waves and resonances will help you get a clean sound without reflexions.
Distance between speakers as well as distance to sitting position is also key to get it correctly. Important in this point is to know the recommendations from the speaker manufacturer. One common problem I see in many rooms is that people tend to have the speakers on axis to the listening position. This setup usually narrows soundstage and plays against proper imaging in most cases. I would recommend to start with the speakers without toe in, and slowly start to toe them in thill you are happy with the soundstage. With a proper design loudspeaker you'll be able to get depth, space, air, all of those words we like to hear to describe a 3d image from a stereo setup.
"But I would say that to get the best imaging firstly the speakers have to have a great phase integration between drivers."
I was working with full range (FR) drivers and doing stuff to get extra khz from them for phase aligned sound, and now I have finally done it and have made the best pair of speakers I have ever made. I used a 3" FR driver and drilled a hole through it (a major task) and used another micro FR driver (stripped of it's cone) and I glued a thin stick to the voice cole tube of the micro FR driver and poked the stick through the hole in the 3" FR driver and glued the modified micro FR driver to the back of the 3" FR driver (while carefully lining up the stick in the hole). On the other end Of the stick (which is now at the speaker front) I glued a tiny foil "whizzer" and it's in phase with the 3" FR cone (stick is just the right length). It gives the FR driver more khz and sounds way different to most $10 FR drivers (way more top end "sting"). And the metal foil whizzer (1/4" big) makes the cymbals sound metallic and the ride cymbal really happens (unlike with normal $10 RF drivers). Mine cost $5 each and $3 for the mico ones. Amazing "3D effect". I call it the the "headphones effect". I built them with the boxes along with extra 6" woofers.
Thank you Paul for another well made and carefully researched video!
Hello Paul , you take two microphones in small room to recreate stereo , how you deal with the polar pattern of each microphone, it’s sure you will have phase problems and the result will be muddy or picky depend of the frequency and the position in the room .the timbre and the dynamic will be false. This phenomen will be appear wathever the size of the room
I read once that the best image (i.e. perfect 3D soundstage) you will get in anechoic room
and the worst in a reverberant room This was an extremization clearly But what i got is that room reflections are in the end the worst enemy of a great soundstage. When you block reflections from a wall the wall will disappear sonically speaking. Amazing sensation indeed.
And also outdoor you will get a great sound stage ... but there will be ambient noise of course.
The rule of thirds won't work for my media room/home theater. 13 ft wide, but 27 ft to the rear wall. My mains are 20" from the rear wall, but one is 20" from the side wall, while the other is only about 6" away. I just can't accommodate more space for the close speaker because I'd be blocking my screen. I do have nearly an equidistant triangle between my MLP and the mains, though. I just cannot afford to build a room around a speaker setup, unfortunately. I suppose this is one reason I've never bought better speakers than my Andrew Jones and my Klipsch setups.
Thank you very much for your explanations which I totally agree with.
By experimenting with multiple loudspeaker placements myself, I have come to the same conclusions as yours.
❤😂❤
the secret to good imaging is single-driver (full-range) speakers, and lots of spaces to the left and right of speakers
Great advice. Thank you sir
Long answer short, constructing and destructive interference causing attenuation and muddying of separation of channels at the user end?
Agree that the SFO Tilson-Thomas Mahlers are exceptional in soundstaging! A too-little acknowledged factor of good imaging is a very close match between left and right speakers in both time and frequency domains, a result of close manufacturing tolerances or "hand"-matching of drivers. Left-right localization of an individual sound source depends on the relative amplitude and/or signal arrival time. If L&R speakers don't match closely, there can be a zone of confusion created as different frequencies "argue" with your brain over localization, resulting in smearing, very similar to the "circle of confusion" of an out-of-focus camera lens as different areas of the lens disagree on the spatial location of a subject element at the film plane. Similarly, fore-aft localization is largely dependent on frequency content and relative amplitude as air attenuates frequencies selectively with distance, giving a trained brain clues to distance. Relative arrival times are also important. Here again, disagreement between left and right speakers can confuse the ear and brain, as can nonlinear frequency response, causing perceived fore-aft smearing. Listening to precisely-imaging speakers is a joy as the elements of the music stand out in clear relief and the structure of the arrangement and performance becomes clearly apparent.
Good imaging is something I appreciate and something I put effort towards achieving. It's my favorite thing about a good sound system. Being able to hear the musicians solidly located in space, being able to "feel" exactly where each one is, is a magical experience.
If you haven't heard a system that images well, I strongly encourage you to experiment with your own system, or seek out and listen to one that is well set up.
A big revelation for me happened when I was moving into a new apartment in the 1970s. I was not yet an audiophile. To take a break from unpacking and to see what kind of FM reception I could get in this new location, I put my bookshelf speakers on top of boxes, about five or six feet apart and in the middle of the room, hooked them up to my receiver (attaching my dipole antenna made from speaker wire), and found a jazz station. I was startled; before that moment, I wasn't aware of imaging, even as a concept. I thought all there was to stereo was a vague, left, center, right arrangement of voices and instruments. Suddenly, I heard the instruments floating in the room and was amazed and curious about what was going on. This got me on the road to being seriously interested in music reproduction, and I eventually started reading audio magazines, visiting audio stores, and talking to people about sound systems (and in doing so, I learned how many nice systems are set up really badly).
I have my current system set up so that I have a dedicated two-channel system that shares the front speakers with a five-channel home theater system. (When I got a home theater system, I added three speakers, an AV preamp and a 3-channel power amp, but kept my original stereo setup intact for music listening.) So, I have a center speaker, even though its amp isn't turned on for stereo listening. As a demonstration of stereo imaging, I've commented to a guest how clearly we can hear the singer on the center speaker, had them agree, then told them that the center speaker isn't actually on. My guest will usually go stick their ear up to the center speaker to confirm, and are amazed at how just the stereo pair can create the illusion of that centered voice, floating in space.
I feel that a good home theater system needs a good L+R stereo setup as its foundation; the center and surrounds are just enhancements. It's broken my heart to help friends set up pretty nice systems, but have them cruelly compromise sound quality in favor of room design.
In the setups I've had, and that I've helped other people set up, I've usually found that having the stereo speakers and listener in something close to an equilateral triangle is a good starting point. Much of the time it works best to point the speakers slightly towards the listening position, but this varies a lot with different speakers; some sound best pointed exactly straight. Like Paul says in this video, it usually helps to keep the speakers out from the wall, if possible. As Paul also mentions, don't forget to experiment with the listening position; you don't necessarily want to sit with your couch or chair jammed against the wall, either.
It pays to experiment, scooting the speakers around, trying different distances between speakers, distances to the listener, distances from the wall, angling the speakers towards the listening position. Sometimes a very small change will yield a surprising improvement.
I've also discovered over the years that it is usually better to have your speakers on one of the longer walls of the room. Most people seem to do the opposite, perhaps to get more distance from the speakers. My only guess is that this lessens early reflections from the sides of the room. Your mileage may vary, but it's something to experiment with.
After writing the above, I just saw another video where Paul answers the same question, but gives additional details, including speaker toe-in:
th-cam.com/video/vBfBAMR8zHU/w-d-xo.html
How does a good preamp expand the sound? I can understand less noise and greater headroom, but I don't understand the expansion part. I'm thinking like expanded stereo separation
Wow!!!! This video changed my life. Thank you so much Paul. Long story short.... I got hearing aids. Wow that's better. I can hear! So, 8 months later i have completely revamped my entire surround sound set up. And I realized I loved music more than I do movies... Hmmmm. Enter Pauls video. All I can say I Holy Cow I had no idea music could possibly sound this good. Once I pulled the speakers off the wall about 4 ft. it sounded pretty good. I ran a few tests with REW and played with the crossover slopes and such, re-aligned the subs to mains. That's when the magic happened. When Paul suggested the sound comes from behind the speaker I didn't completely understand. Trust me, I know now! for those of you who have never experienced this I'll try to explain what it sound like for you. As I sit in my living room and listen to music I have to admit that I can't hear any of the 7.2.4 speakers. I can no longer pinpoint where the sound is created because the room is creating the sound. Yes, the room creates the sound. I no longer hear the speakers. Yes, when I open my eyes I can feel/ sense the sound is coming from behind the speakers. Essentially the entire back wall seems to be about 20 feet farther back than it actually is. And because of the atmos speakers the heighth in the room seem to have doubled. Music that used to sound pretty good now sounds like it's actually being played in my room. You can feel the pressure change as the musician sways his sax from side to side. I got up last night and walked around the room to see what changes I experienced. Like Paul says, It's supposed to reproduce what was played live. And wow does it. Even when I walked behind the speakers it sounded unlike anything I've heard before. I just watched this video again and I'm going to pull the speakers another 2 feet from the wall. Yeah, my wife is that awesome.
Awesome! Congratulations. Thanks for letting us know.
So in a 12 foot long room placing the speakers a third of the way in is at 4 feet. Nearly all advice says between 3 and 7 feet is to be avoided because of speaker boundry interference response. So confused.
Does that mean that speakers that have the air ducts at the back instead of the front will generally have more efficiency?
Ok, but isn't this what auto calibration is for? It is supposed to account for all the room inconsistencies?
The rule of thirds is an excellent starting point along with judicious toe-in or wall mounted diffusion panels to minimize first reflections, especially in a narrow room. However for my ears the "coherence" of the speaker is equally if not more important for excellent imaging. Coherence within a speaker means that the drivers are well integrated with each other- e.g. woofer, midrange, tweeter etc such that the sound throughout the frequency range appears to be coming from a single source and not bouncing between the individual drivers. In an ideal room a speaker with poor coherence between the drivers will lead to image wander and ultimately frustration for the listener.
Some speakers do this well, others do not. Careful auditioning is the key to finding speakers with excellent driver coherence.
.If you're right -- and I think you are -- then the KEF with the Uni - Q design is the way to go. No wonder why so many people like the LS50's.
I have to recreate entire concert hall to get perfect sound imaging?
Hi Paul, excellent video as always. I have question that I am Wrestling with: Should I use 2 different book shelf speakers in the same room. Not Surround sound, but as stereo ? I have just purchased Elac Debut 6.2 (which to my ear are excellent), and was given New Fluances Signature Bookshelf at very good discount. I was debating returning one set, but now play them simulatneously. They kinda of compliment each other to some extent, but the Fluances need more Oomph on the sound volume to equate sound levels. The Fluances offer less separation and little less brightness than the Elacs. Advice and counsel appreciated..... THX and be safe everyone.
Do you have to pull the speakers out as much with front ported speakers?
darryl austin speakers should be placed far from rear wall if you Want good soundstage and imaging. Rear ported too. You need to have place around speakers to place virtuall artists .
Surey the way the audio was recorded would then affect the imaging? In your example, They could have placed the two microphones in a different location? Or is this a standard when recording audio? If so then how would electronic music be recorded if no mics?
I cannot say Thank You enough, for the 'perfect' sound I am now able to enjoy, using your DSD Dac. That was the constant constraint I dealt with in getting my stereo to sound wonderful. Now, with the DSD Dac, I am completely satisfied. My journey is now complete, and I am able to simply Listen and enjoy. Thank you, and Ted Smith.
I find it comical how bad the drone footage is 🤣 jerky panning etc. I guess he only caress about audio.
Very practical advice on imaging. I like.
Just adding to the information that Paul already stated. He forgot to mention pulling the speakers away from the side walls and trying to position them symmetrically. The listening position ideally would be along the centerline of the room and speakers.
Getting better imaging has to do with equal path lengths between the listening position and the speakers as well as having similar room reflections on both sides. ( as opposed to one open space on one side and wall on other)
Also having the speaker wire runs equal lengths is the most important to attaining better imaging and focus.
Symmetry is the key here. Measuring and placing the speakers to the nearest 1/16" form the listening position, side walls, and front walls can dramatically improve the listening experience.
um, so do you listen with your head in a vise?! if speaker placement to the 1/16" is critical, so is head movement, no?!
@@2112res Head movement is not as critical because it all comes down to getting the arrival times at the listening position of the sound waves to coincide. One this magic happens, the music sounds correct from anywhere in the room. Yes, the imaging changes with regards to head movement but tonality and other qualities of the reproduction come into play. Hard to explain with words.....easier to demonstrate in person.