Experience Train Safety Fails: Passing a Red Signal at Speed | Shocking Train Moments
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 ต.ค. 2024
- #: Repost: For reasons I mention after 1:13:21 this video was offline for a while. You can now watch it again in an edited form.
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Prepare to embark on a riveting journey through the world of train operations! In this video, we dive deep into one of the most alarming and rarely encountered scenarios in rail operations: passing a red signal at speed. Join me as I recount my heart-stopping experience during a routine journey from Utrecht to Schiphol and then on to Dordrecht on June 29, 2024. This incident, while rare, is one that every train driver and rail enthusiast must recognize. Understanding the intricacies of train safety is not just vital for professionals but also enriches the knowledge of enthusiasts and the general public alike.
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This video goes beyond mere storytelling; it serves as an educational resource providing valuable insights into train safety regulations and the critical importance of signal compliance. Whether you're a train aficionado, an aspiring engineer, or simply curious about the railway industry, this presentation promises to expand your comprehension of the complexities involved in train operations and safety management.
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###Tags: passing red signal, train safety, train driver, signal compliance, railway operations, safety management, train signals, shock moments, train experiences, train enthusiasts, cabview, trains experience, rail regulations, safety protocols, signal changes, emergency procedures, Utrecht to Schiphol, Dordrecht train ride, train industry, train emergencies, GPS speed data, train enthusiast community, railway risk management, train video, rail operations safety, passing train signals, cabview films, signal passed danger, train journey, railway insights, rail safety education, train technology, crisis management in railways, communication in rail operations
#cabview #cabinerit #cabride #ns #trains #machinist #traindriver #führerstandsmitfahrt #slowtv treinserie 3700 amsterdam bijlmer arena zuid schiphol leiden den haag laan van noi hs delft schiedam centrum rotterdam sts passage stspassge stst-passage spad signal passed at danger train collision crash
Utrecht - Schiphol - Dordrecht VIRM 29/6/2024
Dear fans, thank you for your positive comments to this critical Signal Passed At Danger video. I have decided not to post any reactions from my side to be on the safe side, but that does not mean that I do not appreciate them. I will answer your private messages sent via cabviewholland@gmail.com after my vacation, because I want to take the time to answer those correctly. I find the foreign regulations regarding this specific issue particularly interesting. If you can report anything about that as a colleague, please do so privately. Particularly interesting for me to find out is if your regulation specifically tells you how to act in a situation where the signal suddenly shows red on approach - a technical SPAR.
Thanks again!
Greetings, Vincent
The UK Rulebook states that if you see any signal irregularity in front of you (green to yellow or red, yellow to red) you must stop the train immediately and contact the signaller, whether you pass the signal or not. There are many reasons why this might happen, from technical failure with points, signals or track circuit, bridge strike, crossing failure, trepassers on the line, another train passing a danger signal, a signaller making a mistake - you just don't know and you can't guess. The only acceptable response is to stop immediately, tell the signaller what you saw and follow their instructions.
I have no idea of the way its works in the NL, but in France, emergency braking would be the only option, and when the train stops, there is a urgent need to call the line supervision to decide what to do. If this is due to a technicial problem on the only signal, the procedure will most likely call for a prudent run (called "marche à vue" i.e. on sight) to the next signal. This is closely related to what you did.
ATB-EG only activates when you aren't braking. And I don't think this signal is fitted with ATB-vv (Like TPWS which activates your brakes when approaching a signal at danger too fast so that's why there is no emergency braking
In Germany there wouldn't even be a discussion. Any signal falling back to red issues a forced stop (Zwnagsbremsung) to the train, which the engineer must support by applying emergency brake.
@@apotato5563 I was only mentionning that on french trains, a manual action of the driver must be to push the "emergency stop button" also known as "BP-Urg", standing for "Boutton Poussoir URGence" (a big red "mushroom" on the dashboard !). Pushing it totaly empties the continuous brake line, and opens all traction relays on Diesel or electrical trains. On electrical trains, there is an additionnal emergency button to lower the panto(s).
Regarding automatic braking devices triggered by passing the red signal, still on French lines, it depends on the type of signalization in use on the said-line. Also considering the short time that separated the arrival of the train at the signal, and the moment the signal turned red, I wonder whether the automatic device may have had a sufficient time to be set on.
mais je pense qu'en France il n'y aurait jamais eu cette situation a moins que le conducteur aurait été prévenu à l'avance
@@rayan_stas Si, si c'est possible car certaines situations d'urgence entrainent "la mise au rouge" de tous les signaux sur une ligne donnée. Par exemple sur une alerte radio...
I think you acted perfectly. The signal was green and suddenly turned red because of a technical error. The moment you saw the signal changing, you applied the emergency break. Like you said, this can't happen with normal operation. First you get a yellow signal so you know that the next signal is gonna be a red one. But this one clearly shows green and turns red. So you did everything perfectly.
I agree. Having the video is proof for the situation. Nothing was out of the ordinary from what we can see prior to the signal suddenly turning red. There's no way to stop instantly and a SPAD is inevitable.
Ik vind het jammer dat je het stukje van de noodrem hebt verwijdert. Zeker omdat je gehandeld hebt volgens je training en de regels.
Ik weet het niet 100% zeker, maar volgens mij mogen ze niet letterlijk de "noodrem" of de cabine filmen
It is fortunate for you you had video footage - lessons can be learned, and can be the difference of whether there are biscuits and coffee at your subsequent meeting with management.
I didn't see the original so I do not know what happened, and I am not a train pilot, so my unqualified view is that if a signal changes to danger in front of you, you stop and you stop quickly. You do not know whether it is a fault in signalling, or whether track points ahead have suddenly changed, or whether another train has incorrectly come onto your block. You don't even know if you have time to do anything else. And then you speak to the controllers in charge when you have got the situation under control. If anybody was saying otherwise, they are not train pilots.
In aviation, your priorities in order are 'aviate, navigate, communicate'. If you get an alert, you do the thing you need to do to keep everything safe. You don't worry about further overloading your situation by doing low priority stuff which wont actually help your situation.
Not entirely sure how the NSR rulebook would differ from sister company NS International. But for international trains it is apply emergency brake, send alarm message. That rule ALSO applies to train managers (we at the back who have to deal with grumpy passengers) if the driver is incapacitated or fails to follow procedures (for whatever reason) . And yes, if safety justifies, I’m allowed to be in the driver’s cab, and in Belgium we are trained to know all signal aspects and monitor the train driver if he/she reacts accordingly to the signals. If in ANY doubt, press the big red button…. Or if you know a bit more about locomotive like the traxx you pick the right yoke and pull it fully. This will prevent the train from shutting down completely and not be able to send a message at all.
@@MaartenOtto they should not difer as both the companies use the same track with the same rules
In the UK, this would be a Technical SPAR (not SPAD), as the signal went on (that is how we say that a signal went to Danger) in the driver's face, without sufficient time for the train to stop at the signal.
Yeah, because if it was anything other than a Cat A, it still showed on their record as a SPAD and would thus put off other TOCs from hiring said driver.
We call them a SPAD B in New Zealand, and it's usually just a verbal from train control once they've confirmed the reversion if passed at red.
@@ktmdukenz We used to use these denominations (Category A SPAD/Category B SPAD).
I am a train driver in the US. When this happens, we say that the signal "dropped in your face." (Dropped to Stop.) Emergency braking at that speed can be deadly, because the train can derail. Signal drops happened to me twice. Both times I calmly applied the brakes, passed the Stop Signal and came to a safe stop. I then called the dispatcher on the radio and reported the event. He gave me permission to continue and nothing else came out of it. Apparently, our signal people were doing some signal work and dropped the signal on me. In reality, when the signal drops like that, chances are that it is not because of a conflicting move (that could cause a collision). It's too complicated to explain why, but most like it's a signal glitch.
Under ETCS and TPWS the two predominant systems in EU and UK you would not have a choice, your train would go into emergency by itself.
EB CAUSING DERAIL LOOOOL ONLY IN AMERIKA
@gka4976 Thanks. Interesting. Could you please contact me at the mail address in my pinned comment?
@@testplmnb Not true. Apparently, you've never seen freight trains that are well over 15,800 feet (4.8 km) and carrying 12,000 to 18,000 US Tons. (10,886 to 16,329 metric tonnes) of containers and goods. This isn't always on flat ground either with some areas with long grades through mountain passes to boot. Some freight trains can take more than 1 mile or 1.6 km to stop.
@@Clavichordist Only USA runs trains that big. Its all about the money. Skimping on crews to save a dollar. The rest of the world has more sensible train length limits and at least on modern trains electropneumatic brakes rather than Westinghouse air. Sadly some of our operators are trying to go the same way. Fortunately regulation holds them back.
Ik had de originele video gezien en snap niet waarom dit voor discussie zou zorgen. Ik vind dat prima en correct hebt gehandeld, de snelrem inzetten en de treindienstleider informeren omdat het een bediende sein kon de TRDL het sein uit gevaar ook herroepen. Deze situatie zag ik ook op youtube van een collega van u bij een andere tunnel en hij handelde het op dezelfde manier als u.
Idd dat dacht ik ook!
Er wordt een video geupload met een heftig onderwerp met bijhorende thumbnail en vervolgens is alles gewist en zelfs niet meer op terug gekomen.
Het zal ook allemaal niet zo schokkend zijn geweest maar toch blijft het jammer (en een klein beetje misleidend al geloof ik voor de volle 100% dat dit niet de intentie was).
Kijk de andere video dan nog maar eens goed, zitten wel degelijk verschillen in 😉😊
@@GJFWBNL ik vind het ook wel jammer ja dar niet het hele deel erop staat. Hier zou je als mcn er niks tegen aan kunnen doen, al zullen collega's er misschien anders over denken. Je zou je een hoedje schrikken als een sein opeens van groen naar rood gaat. :)
@@SLT2609 De collega's met commentaar ging het om het correct handelen volgens de regelgeving en met de nsr+ / vvrv verschillen in regelgeving kan je wel eens iets anders opvatten.
@@GJFWBNL Wat had hij anders kunnen doen of moeten doen volgens anderen ? Soort noodstop ?
I managed to see the original video, shortly before you deleted it again. While I understand that you will probably prefer not to discuss the matter further in public, I am genuinely curious how anyone could think your actions were not the correct ones, given the situation. Your colleague in the VIRM obviously came to the same conclusion as you did.
I read comments below and mulled them over as the video worked towards the critical event. That signal aspect change is "impossible". Preceding signals and that signal itself were green until it suddenly became red almost as you passed it. But that impossibility is no reason to ignore the fact that the signal went red. You have no idea if it was a malfunctioning signal or a last ditch effort to stop your train due to a sudden problem you were about to run into. So for safety, as frustrating as it may be, you absolutely MUST hit the E-Stop button as the quickest way to bring many tons of metal, plastic, and human flesh to a stop. Then ask control, "What's wrong? Signal XXX changed from green to red just before I passed it." In your case nobody can gainsay your observation. You have it on video. So they owe you an initial guess explanation and a final explanation once the repair crew has had a chance to go over that signal and its wiring. It's location in the Delft contruction zone suggests they won' t have much trouble finding the reason. As far as *I* am concerned you did very good. I cannot fault other interpretations of the event which would have been safe interpretations, this time and possibly every subsequent time in somewhat similar circumstances an argument that it's obviously a signal error. The rules should be impolitely blunt stating that even if you have reasons to be 100% sure it was a signal malfunction you must hit the big red E-Stop button then ask questions or make observations later once the train is safely stationary. Heck, that might even have been how God saved a 90 year old grandmother stuck trying to get up after falling on the tracks a crossing or two up the road. Or it might have been a simple malfunction. How are you supposed to divine the difference. That is why God inspired industry design E-Stop buttons.
{^_^} Was I emphatic enough?
Haha! Please read my pinned comment and contact me privately. As a regular viewer I owe you more info about this situation. This applies to all dear fans by the way.
@@CabviewHolland Sent email. Mentioned my YT ID in the subject. I'd decided that seeing the added data was optional as it involves embarrassment with somebody's dirty linen.
{^_^}
Never go to emergency for a 'dropped to red'. Bring the train to a safe stop or be guilty of not being in control of the train and using proper train handling. And do not listen to train simulator game boys.
Watching the video it's very clear the signal went straight from green to red and it would have been impossible to avoid running that, i don't know much about railroading in that part of the world but it still is obviously ridiculous anyone would blame the driver, he did everything right.
Very nice trip and video, appears you are handling the incident well, appreciate your company allowing these videos.
Understand - Have a good day - Have a safe day!
Thanks :-)
dude you acted perfectly in the way any other train driver would in the UK or across Europe, the signal was put back on in your face weather though a track circuit failure or human error as soon an you saw the red you made an emergency brake application and stopped your train in a controlled manor and then contacted the signaller alerting them to what just happened, these people that caused a stir are not train drivers or have ever worked in the railway industry they think they know what they are talking about but actually don't and i suggest they keep their gobs shut.. keep up the good work i would love to see more videos
The mistake you are making is saying its either a track circuit failure or human error.
If an accident happened another train driver could put a short circuit cable to prevent incoming trains from entering the block.
If that was the case here (which you should handle towards cause you don't know what's up ahead of you) he should have put out an emergency call and not just a regular call.
Most train accidents happen because of assumptions and downplaying situations.
@robwink3800 I take it you don't work on the railway. I ment human error as the signaller put the signal back in error that does happen. Not every signal is automatic, especially ones that control entry to crossovers, which this does and is fully manual signal
@@allansheldrake4832 I understand what you meant but you have to take into account that there can be a calamity and you always have to send out an emergency call whenever a signal drops and you passed it.
The driver in this video did not handle properly and that's why the video has been taken down and edited, to prevent showing the wrong handlings.
Also funny you assume that i dont work on the railway when i'm actually a train driver myself that has worked with the ATB system and dutch signaling (stelsel '54) & ERTMS.
It might be a language barrier since i primarly work in dutch so please elaborate on what you don't understand.
@@robwink3800 Every country has its own rules in these circumstances and commentators will respond assuming their rules are the only ones which reply, which can be a cause for confusion. I assume that's what the previous commentator has done.
In the UK where I drive, we would not make a GSM-R emergency call for a signal reverting to danger unless we also saw something that was a risk to other trains. It would be the driver's choice whether to make a normal call or a priority call (I don't know if your GSM-R are the same as ours, we have red button for emergency call, yellow button for priority call and 1-1 button for an ordinary call to the controlling signaller), and to be honest a driver would be more likely to be criticised for making an emergency call and stopping trains in a wide area just for a signal reversion than for not doing so.
Track circuit clips (short circuit cables as you call them) are now mostly useless in the UK as we're generally switching to axle counters nowadays from track circuits, and track circuiting was never continuous on most lines, but we still have TC clips and use them as a back-up safety measure ("belt and braces", as we say) because a train driver has no way of knowing if there's a track circuit on a specific section of track and it can't hurt to put them down - and it might help. The sort of problem for which we would put down TC clips is one that we definitely would hit the red button on the GSM-R, though, and definitely not just a signal reversion.
@@atraindriver Yea that's my main concern, the people saying he acted perfectly fine when they don't know about the dutch regulations.
You can't count on other trains having a functional gsm-r to send out the emergency call, that's why the regulations in the netherlands say to always put out an emergency call in a situation like this. No one will be criticised for acting towards to safe side. You WILL be criticised for downplaying it and resulting in a fatal accident.
Ça arrive collègue 👍🏾. Je suis Conducteur de Trains en 🇫🇷 et ce genre d’incidents est prévu dans nos règlements - avec une procédure bien précise en fonction du Signal. Chez nous on appelle ça « Une fermeture Intempestive » et de façon générale la procédure nous impose de nous arrêter d’urgence, de protéger notre train éventuellement vis à vis des autres circulations et de signaler l’incident aux agents responsables de la gestion des circulations.
Ça surprend toujours mais tant que tu es réglementaire et sécuritaire, ta priorité est de maintenir cette sécurité. Si c’est le cas, tu es bon 👍🏾🏆
American here, who has never worked for a railroad: This looked like signal malfunction or incorrect operation to me. The signal was green when you approached it, and thus can only change to yellow (indicating that the next signal can be red). You did the right thing by bringing the train to an expeditious halt and contacting operating authority for further instructions.
I assume when this matter was settled that no derogatory action was taken against you.
The controversy seems to be that he didn’t make an emergency call but a normal call to the signaler.
A GSM-R emergency call would cause all nearby trains to stop.
@@user-gc1ky2rf3y Certainly in the UK we would not make an emergency call after a signal reversion. Possibly a priority call (yellow button), but it would be the driver's choice. A GSM-R emergency call can stop trains in a wide area and isn't necessarily the best choice.
@@atraindriver Thanks to the last two commenters for clarification. As I don't and have never worked for a railroad, this level of detail is unknown to me. Presumably, train drivers are instructed on exactly how to report problems, and making a call that halts ALL rail activity in the area seems an extreme action to take, requiring a very high level of certainty that this action is necessary.
If appropriate and Original Poster is comfortable with this, I'd be curious was the final outcome was.
As an option, instead of full stop, suspecting a tech malfunction for the reasons others mention, one could have reduced to slow speed, what the US railroads call "Restricted Speed", enough to stop the train quickly if an obstacle across the tracks or misaligned switch is seen visually as the train moves, and then make the radio calls as he did, for information and guidance as to continue or stop. To me it looked like the circuit that "knocks down" the signal from whatever indication it had to all red after the train passes somehow triggered prematurely.
@@xheralt No, categorically not. A signal reverting to a red aspect means you must stop because you have no way of knowing what has caused that reversion.
There is no argument about that point from any train driver who is responding here: if a signal reverts to danger, you stop immediately. Then, and only then, do you make the call to find out what is wrong.
The discussion is whether or not making an emergency call on the GSM-R radio system is necessary or justified; in the UK it's not necessary but may be justified, whereas in the Netherlands it's apparently mandatory.
A great part of regular viewers and visitors know that you’re always well prepared and very kind in your explanations. In fact, I think that is impossible to act or at least, very difficult to take an instant decision (braking at full trying to stop the convoy inmediatly provoking an unpleasant situation with the passengers and the staff or keeping ahead). But I’m sure that it was a very unpleasant scare. Even going alone in the cab. And is in those cases when people notice that being a driver of any vehicle is not just “pulling or pushing steering wheels, buttons or levers comfortably seated”. It’s about having a big responsability and taking into that dozens of souls are being taken. It’s clear that something was wrong with that signal. So keep moving NL from your ride! Very well done! Greetings from Spain.
Thanks :-)
Ik wil Vincent bedanken voor het delen van deze video. De keuze om het op deze manier te doen is volledig aan hem. Wij als volgers mogen blij zijn dat hij zijn tijd en energie geeft om ons de mooiste beelden te laten zien. Zijn kwaliteiten als machinist staan voor mij niet ter discussie. Dus sterkte Vincent en ik kijk uit naar de volgende video.
Dat sowieso!
Wauw, dankjewel Johan :-))
The point is not whether the signal suddenly turns red or not. The point is, the signal shows red before the train passes it. The only response to this event is emergency braking.
I cannot see how you could have acted differently. Things happened so fast what choices did you have. To my eyes you acted fast and calmly, well done
At departure “high green” and I can even heat an ATB code change with a speed improvement. Train departs and the next signal is showing green. But 20 meters in front of your train it “falls off” and a SPAD is the result.
There are only 3 scenarios in which this can happen:
1, signaler is pulling the signal = tea and biscuits unless safety was otherwise compromised.
2. Another train has made a SPAD and your path was involved.
3. Technical failure (which in this case I deem most likely) like a short cut of power to the signal (which will then result in it going to it’s default “safe” state which will almost always be red).
I can not imagine this SPAD will be in your record and held against you in future. If they did then it’s time for some serious talks at HGB (NS HQ) with the trade unions involved. Hope you recovered from this okay…. A colleague from NS International.
Toch wel fijn dat de video terug is. Blijft zonde die heisa, want het was een interessante situatie.
I saw the original, and you reacted perfectly as did the driver of the oncoming train out of Delft Campus, who I imagine must have received a similar late changing Green to red.
I don't know for certain, but I guess that as the light in both directions were protecting the crossover and this was during the reworking of the tracks and signals, that somehow the wires had been crossed. It should never have happened of course, but at least it was just the signals and due to the prompt reaction of both drivers, there was no issue.
I was surprised at the length of time that the dispatchers took to sort the situation, but I guess that they had to be certain that it was safe before letting you go.
I missed the original, had this been a case of two trains on the same track heading towards each other?
@@sparkyUK No. It was signals in both directions reverting to danger (red aspect) stopping trains on both lines, which can happen if there's a fault near a crossover between tracks: both signals will fail safe and revert to danger.
Here in the UK, signals reverting to danger because of faults were a feature of my early driving career 25 years ago - so much so that it became almost a routine: "OK, we're coming up to , I wonder which of their signals will fail today?". There was even an area where if it was raining you could guess which signal would fail based on the intensity of the rain!
[Edited for a spelling correction on one word.]
Having not seen the original video, I can only assume that you brought the train to a stand and informed the signalling centre. They then requested that you verify the next few signals were showing correct aspects. Once confirmed, normal running resumed. It's not often that signal malfunctions like that, but it does happen occasionally. This is a 'no driver error' 'signal passed at danger' and should be treated as such.
Kind of a click baited title, only to NOT show the relevant part.
So WHAT HAPPEND? Why was the singel turning red?
Why exactly is it not allowed to show correctly following procedures and stop the train for safety and to figure out why?
I think it is fair to say thank you for opening a discussion at your employer about the situation. Although I saw the original video back in the day, I think you acted perfectly, regarding the safety and wellbeing of your passengers. I believe these discussions (if discussed properly) are what makes a railroad safer. I'm happy the outcomes of this situation were positive enough, I hope this won't happen to you again!
Thanks!
Wow - this is the first I learned of a prior 1945mm wide gauge in the Netherlands. I'll have to look into it more. Thanks.
I don't know what the Dutch regulations are but they definitely should be clear in telling drivers to stop. I am only very familiar with the Romanian regulations, which say that a turned off signal (without the X on top) or a signal with a "dubious indication" (changing from green to yellow/red, showing a different indication than predicted by the previous signal, etc) should always be treated as red signals.
Dispatcher from Switzerland here.
Boy, I can't even imagine how you must have felt running over that red signal 🙁
During my almost 20 years doing this, I witnessed incidents like this maybe a handfull of times, and I can can tell you, how (or even IF) you proceed totally depends on the situation itself. First of all, bring the train to a full stop and communicate with the dispatcher. The reasons for a sudden red signal are various (to just name a few):
a) a signal malfunction (the most common reason) -> the dispatcher will give you a go without any restriction, if it wasn't your fault
b) a loose car got into your way -> just stop, and ehhhm, whatever you see fit
c) some issue with a railway crossing -> dispatcher may instruct you to proceed and check on irregularities at those crossings
Misschien handig om het deel van het sein met uitleg nog eens te plaatsen in een aparte video, inclusief uitleg en dergelijke.
Super goed gehandeld en ik heb mijn complete respect voor jou!
I went from Pueba, Mexico to La Jolla, Calificoria (a little more than 3 1/2 flight). Was made to be 4 to 9 days gone for an annuall. Kept 'up' hositalized. It turned out -- 21 days gone -- nissed this video. As alwas, it's super. Gracias. Super Cabview. RT, sends, Puebla, Mexico...
Glad you are OK!
It’s lot up to us to judge how a driver drives. Drivers follow a strict safety policy so that in the case of a SPAR the driver will react quickly and efficiently if the safety systems haven’t kicked in beforehand. As someone who has witnessed a similar situation in the UK This is by no means a driver fault and the signaller who reverted the signal to a danger aspect should be held accountable for any issues after the incident.
I haven’t seen the original footage but thank you for your videos. Most of the time driving a train is not a completely difficult job but it’s when other colleagues or technology fails that it becomes hard as well you as a driver are responsible for a lot of lives behind you’re cab door.
From a signalling engineer (not in the NL) point of view, there's nothing else a driver can do, other than applying emergency brakes and getting in touch with the operator.
I'm not familiar with that type of interlocking, but in my country, the seen behaviour can only be produced in follwing scenarios: a technical fault, the loss of the integrity of one of the elements neccessary to proceed to the next signal (flank protection, faulty switch, a track segment getting occupied) or the operator manually setting the signal back due to an emergency (object on the track or such things).
Ik neem aan dat niemand bewust door een rood sein rijdt, maar met deze snelheid is het onmogelijk om voor het sein tot stilstand te komen. En wat betreft de achtergrond regeltjes is mij onbekend, maar neem aan dat de machinist correct gehandeld heeft.🤔👍
Great video as always but as a long-time newsman I want to see what you edited out. You had no choice but to throw it into emergency under the circumstances. As usual, I followed the route on Google maps and spent quite awhile at Rotterdam Stadion looking at the pictures of all the diverse equipment! So thanks again for the excellent work. Be Safe!
I used to be a train driiver. You need to know the siignalling system and Local appendix of operating before critisizing.😊😊
The discussion with the despatcher has been removed, then? I can see why internal communications might be not for public broadcast. So has any explanation been offered yet? Must be either signaller's error or a technical fault. As there was another train coning the other day (in the original) that was also stopped, a fault would seem most likely
Voorkomt inderdaad veel onnodige discussies over nsr+/vvrv verschillen dus misschien wel beter op deze manier om de film alsnog te kunnen tonen :D
Blijft een mooie cabinerit!
It’s been a while since I’ve watched one of your great videos….it’s always good to see one, and again it’s a great video ,well done ✔️ keep up the good work..😊
Thanks!
From watching the part of the video around the incident and reading everything here, I can't be 100% sure, but it seems CabviewHolland applied the emergency brake.
What I wonder about though: doesn't braking very hard create some risk of passenger injury? Or is even the emergency brake not powerful enough to make passengers standing up fall down?
I remember a tram (streetcar) being stopped automatically because the system was confused. This was definitely a more powerful braking action than the driver normally applies, but not too bad and I think less than a full-on emergency brake.
Anyway, I'm familiar with this area and it's basically inconceivable that there was suddenly a reason to stop within this block... no (normally used) switches or overpasses ahead within a good number of kilometers. I'm also pretty sure all of this is computer controlled so human error wouldn't apply. (Unless someone took it upon themselves to override the computers while the track was in active use.)
Whatever the cause of the sudden signal change and however you responded to it, this is an invaluable video for training other drivers and railway employees.
People say the signal turned from green to red, but it clearly cycles through amber to red for no more than a second.
I’m not going to speculate on the cause of the change. As the signal looks like it controls the trailing points ahead, would it not have ‘approach locking’ securing the route from the previous signal? If so, does this count as a ‘right side failure’?
Excellent video (as always), a dramatic situation well handled.
No idea how this works in the Netherlands, but here in Portugal, pretty sure that the emergency brakes are the only option. And of course, calling the signaller/line management. Under ETCS, which I also think is used in NL, the brakes would be automatic. Since the majority of lines here are double tracked, there would be heavy delays. We also use CONVEL and Integra Signum (the latter I am not sure) but I dont know what these safety systems do in that scenario. I think you acted correctly, you ensured the safety of the passengers. Hats off to you!
Hoezo discussie over een machinist die stopt voor een rood sein... hoe dan? Zijn we collectief zo afgezakt?
All i want to say thanks for sharing it, and i would be happy to travel with you anytime. Keep safe friend from Hamilton New Zealand happy travels
Signal changed to red right in front of you. No way you could stop the train right before the signal in this situation. I did not see an original video, but from this one I believe you applied emergency break right after you've seen red, so everything is alright. I am not a train driver, but I love trains. I also know that you are a cool train driver and I love to watch your videos from time to time, keep it up!
Thanks for this big compliment! :-)
I don't have anything to add on the signal problem, but I'd just like to say that I enjoy the information on the provinces that you've added.
Thanks!
From an Aussie train driver, you did everything correct. If that was in Victoria Australia, the same practice would be applied. Emergency Brake application, immediate contact to Metrol and await further instruction from them. I can't understand what could possibly be up for discussion here and why your colleagues might suggest other action.
Apparently Dutch rules require that a GSM-R Emergency call is made (stopping all traffic) rather than just contacting the controlling signaller. That's different to UK rules and I guess different to Aussie rules too.
1:13:20
This happened to me a few times, I have been lucky the one time the OCC Supervisor/Signaller called me over the radio to warn me. Normally just put the TBC into emergency, call the OCC and get authority to override the ATP intervention. Check for any broken rails/obstructions - you will be limited to proceed on sight speed until the next update by the ATP too.
This and not being able to stop before the buffer stops have been a recurring dream/nightmare lol
From NSW Australia - As a Signaller of 43 years, If a signal goes to the stop or Danger position un expectantly, the train driver is to bring their train to a stop as soon and as safely as possible. Then a call is made to the Signaller or Control Officer for further instructions. I am very interested to know what the situation at the Main Rotterdam station was with the signals going on and off but the train was allowed to contnue across facing points as it entered and left the station.
Must be the effect that is caused by the 60fps of the recording and the 50Hz of the signal lights.
wat betekent de X 1:09:59 is het voor tunnels?
Nice video again, thanks. 🙂 What do the two vertically positioned white lights in the schipholtunnel, that burn alternately mean?
Thanks! Those warn railroad workers for oncoming trains.
Kan iemand alsjeblieft toelichten wat de beide kanten van de discussie zijn? Nu is het allemaal stil-stil-niet-meer-over-praten en dan leren we er ook niks van. Gaat het nu om het niet uit sturen van een noodoproep? Of anders, wat dan wel?
Discussie gaat inderdaad over het niet plaatsen van een alarmoproep terwijl dit altijd moet bij een stoptonend sein passage.
Dit in verband met een mogelijke calamiteit zoals de plaatsing van een kortsluitkabel.
Wanneer je bent aangewezen op TH-cam om hierover te leren, dan is er iets anders grondig mis.
@robwink3800 Zie mijn gepinde reactie.
Of course you handled correctly. First is was green and suddenly it was red.. it is impossible to brake that fast. Normally there is a yellow signal first and after that a red signal. So this is not fair.
I'm really surprised that your way of handling it would cause a stir among colleagues, particularly when the health & safety regulator agreed your conduct was proper (although I do not know how you handled it as you've removed said section from the video). Here in Britain, a driver has to stop if they encounter a signal change back to red in front of them (in signaller terminology this is known as an "Adverse Change of Aspect" or ACOA, and refers to any situation where the signal changes in front of them from showing a more restrictive indication (aspect) than the one it was showing before. Normally they would then call the signaller to report it. It may be a fault with the signalling system, or the signaller may have deliberately changed the signal in front of the driver -the latter is an exceptional case that is not supposed to happen in normal working practice, if the signaller finds themself needing to do this, then they *can expect* to receive a call from the effected driver, and it's considered something to avoid if at all possible as it's poor form to the driver.
Interesting, could you please contact me at cabviewholland@gmail.com, and please copy your comment in it? Thanks.
The signal dropped instantly from green to red whilst the train was on such close approach to it that it was impossible to stop the train in time before passing that signal, but setting the emergency brake was prudent because that signal might've dropped from green to danger not only because of a malfunction, but also a broken rail, or a SPAD/SPAR occurring elsewhere.
It goes without saying that reporting this to the train controller or dispatcher ASAP would be required by operating rules.
I've seen rail signals suddenly drop to red from green--and 'Christmas treeing', all aspects flashing alternately.
While automatic train stop systems (ATS) are in place on every metro (subway/el train) system I know of, and on some tramways' (trolley car systems') exclusive rights-of-way, until the implementation of positive train control (PTC)--an ATS system that will stop the train if the engineer SPADs/SPARs or exceeds the permitted speed--in the USA, trunk railways didn't have ATS until implementation PTC, which relies on GPS and regional RF communications to work.
If your operating rules dictate an emergency brake application if you SPAD/SPAR, that's prudent. There needn't be any controversy over your correct handling of this situation.
Because you were operating an electric multiple-unit train, I dare say that the abundance of traction motors in your train stopped you faster than a locomotive-hauled/pushed consist.
Goed gereden, goed gehandeld. Ik heb de originele video gezien, en begrijp dat je er een stuk uit hebt gehaald. Het gaat mij om het land zien, niet om te leren hoe ik machinist kan worden (5.000 km woon-werk verkeer is bovendien te lastig). PS ik vind Barendrecht het meest innovatieve station van Nederland. Dankjewel voor de video.
The light changes to red as the train approaches. No way of stopping.
As an engineer for nearly 40 years here in the US running first for UPRR and currently with Amtrak running on BNSF trackage. After watching the video a couple of times I find nothing wrong on your part. But there's this. Even though the signal dropped on you the reason it dropped is unknown to you at the time. I would have instantly placed the train in emergency and stopped. That's me. Signals rarely drop for no reason. And most likely you did. You appear to be an excellent engineer and I won't second guess you. But going forward always remember this. Signals never drop for no reason. There's something else going on. Act accordingly sir. Best to you from the US I hope all is well.
P.S. don't listen to these armchair railroaders. You did it right. Remember that.
You did the right thing. When in doubt, bring the train to a safe stop as quickly as possible, phone it in to the operations center and go from there. Just because you never saw a yellow doesn't mean anything IMO. What if the yellow signal wasn't working correctly? When it went red you have to assume it is a stopped train ahead or a switch in the wrong position etc...... Perhaps a derailment has occurred and all the signals suddenly went red from the operations center bringing the entire line to a halt. Why risk it?
Anytime as a passenger when you get on a public train, plane, bus or boat you have to 100 percent have faith that the operator(s) up front are 100 percent on their game. Otherwise it could spell disaster for hundreds of people. You put your life in that operators hands anytime you board that vehicle. You bet I'd rather you respect a signal passed at red vs just meh, a faulty circuit, carry on. Accidents are one thing. Negligence is another.
There are several technical issues. One, the bright sunlight requires huge shades on the high level signals, and still, at speed, the train is incapable of changing its speed after the aspect is seen! Two, the signal towers seem to be using one or two-bulb reflective augmented tungsten chemistry with glass Fresnel lenses. That's DIM in today's world. Three, my question to the forum is if there are in-cab CTC Aspect repeating indicators? I see NY Central 16mm films showing eight-bulb in-dash CTC indicators and that was in the '40's and '50's! We could even use the Japanese computer monitor CTC Annunciation repeaters. Four, and finally, the Aspect was Amber and the train seemed to be rolling at less than full speed, and just when the front of the train is right close to the signal stanchion do we see it change to Red. This is an Error in Signaling, not an Operator Oversight. The technical evidence throughout is very heavily weighed in its verisimilitude.
On another electrified underground and above ground urban railway system the signal scheme can also seem confusing. A train front edge crosses over a signal stanchion's sensor and triggers an aspect change. Sometimes it goes from Green to Red and other times, when the block ahead isn't clear, the signal will be Amber, and that goes to Red as the front car enters the block. Look at what happens in the video. Q:1- Is there a system in place to notify occupancy of the block(s) ahead? If a crossover in a distant block was activated it might very well cause the preceding block to show Amber. But to go to Red when the train is already moving well and not at Limited Speed, perhaps, it is Irregular to switch to Red so suddenly. Did the railway wish the operator to dump the air brakes and go to Emergency? The driver herein fared well, listening to his experience and not upsetting the ridership.
My guess this kind of events is one reason why we here in Denamrk are now implementing fully automatic train control systems.
Many main lines no more have the visual line signals.
Instead the driver is notified when the system takes control of his train.
In visual control systems, you can not prevent situations where the signal changes from clear to stop in the last possible moment to be visually recognized.
This may lead to - and to my knowledge actually have lead to - dangerous situations.
In my electronics world this is called "signal racing" and can lead to erroneous functionality, as the system can not detect which event actually is first.
Fortunately this is now prevented by software controlled systems, which can decide priority of events, when they seemingly occors simultaneously.
Petje af meester.
Wat was er dan te zien, op dat stukje film wat je er hebt uit gehaald? Mag je dat omschrijven?
Het weggeknipte stukje bevatte de communicatie met de treindienstleiding. Sommige mensen waren het niet eens met de manier waarop die communicatie plaatsvond. Er schijnt hier regelgeving over te bestaan die op meer dan 1 manier opgevat kan worden.
:-)
😅aankomst hier 01:40.😅mooie rit weer,hartelijk bedankt Mr Vincent.fijn weekend verders. greetz:🍐Peer. morgen livecams de 5 bruggen i.v.m. de F1.🤣
@13:10 het witte stationsgebouw van Abcoude was in 1977 buitenwerking gesteld en vervangen door een nieuw station met 2 perrons net ten zuiden ervan. Dat nieuwere station is in 2007 gesloten en vervangen door het huidige station ten noorden van de tunnel.
Heej… dus mijn info klopt niet. Ik ga het in toekomstige videos aanpassen. Bedankt voor de tip!
in Denmark this is considered a signal fault and you cannot be held accountable. If the signal has any reason to be red, it simply cannot be set to green, and even if it's green and suddenly cancelled and reset to red, the computers won't let the signal go to red immediately, especially if it knows there's a train approaching. Thus, stop and check. We only have ATC to stop trains that run a red, and that system is not entirely reliable, so drivers still have to drive according to the signal lights no matter what - can't rely on the automation to keep you safe
Bedankt voor het opnieuw uploaden van deze video. Kunt u de volgende opmerking uitleggen? Op 54:40 tonen alle seinen voor de vier sporen groen, hoewel een seconde voordat een trein op het meest linkse spoor is gepasseerd? Met vriendelijke groet uit Duitsland.
De seinen zijn zogenoemde ‘P’ seinen oftewel automatische seinen. Zodra de trein die links rijdt het ‘blok’ verlaat en het sein voorbij rijdt, gaat het sein van rood naar groen. Dit omdat het blok nu vrij is en in die zin veilig bereden kan worden. Als u zou kijken in de rijrichting van de trein werkt dat hetzelfde. Als de trein een blok binnen rijdt, gaat het sein dat hij net gepasseerd is op rood. Wanneer hij het volgende blok binnen rijdt en sein passeert, gaat de eerste op geel. En bij de volgende weer op groen. Hopelijk helpt dit een beetje :)
@@lifeoftrains59 Ik ben bekend met de blokseinen. Maar is het niet zo dat alle seinen waar niets gebeurt standaard rood moeten zijn? Hier is het sein voor het blok echter weer groen, ook al rijdt er links op de tegenoverliggende rijstrook een trein.
@@bike-bytes let er op dat het sein pas groen wordt als de trein er al helemaal voor is. En ongeacht afwijkende situaties, zullen P seinen in rust groen tonen
@@lifeoftrains59 Sorry, ik kende de P-signalen niet en nu heb ik de P ook gezien
I'm so sorry this has caused so much fuss for you. I wasn't fortunate enough to see the original video, but from the comments it seems you did an emergency stop. It's almost crazy this would cause any uproar - there is surely no other sensible course of action? A sudden red means some kind of fault, or the signaller knows of an issue ahead (track fault, track obstruction etc) and you need to stop right now. This puts safety as the number one priority, exactly as it should be on the rails.
I hope one day to see the original film and understand the situation entirely, but the section remaining in this video is enough to at least partially understand.
In Switzerland this would be an automatic full brake to a halt and then contacting dispatch, for all we know this could have been an emergency signal change to signal a sudden danger ahead, or just a technical issue, either way, youd suffer consequences in Switzerland if you continued, let alone not have contacted dispatch
Je boft dat je het op video had staan. In 2007 zat ik in het opleidingstraject voor machinisten en in de buurt van Amersfoort viel er ineens ook een sein af. In een klap van groen naar rood. Ik zag het gebeuren. Begon meteen te remmen. M'n instructeur die naast me zat keek net een seconde naar iets anders, maar toen hij zag dat ik begon te remmen en hij het rode sein zag ramde hij de rem meteen helemaal dicht. We kwamen op een paar meter voor het sein tot stilstand. Later bleek het om een storing te gaan. M'n instructeur was ontzettend geschrokken. Niet zozeer om het rode sein, maar omdat het voor de standplaats Utrecht het beleid was dat bij elke machinist die door rood reed, ook als het niet je eigen schuld was, meteen de zwaarste procedure werd aangespannen.
Leuke video alleen vraagje: Gister was ik met de trein en een machinist had de station waar we moesten stoppen Amsterdam Lely;aan perongelijk geskipt, gebeurt dit vaker? (In de trein van Schiphol naar Nijmegen)
Haha! Ja, dat overkomt ons allemaal wel eens. Helemaal wanneer we een extra stop moeten maken zoals bijvoorbeeld op RAI. Machinisten worden daarover niet specifiek ingelicht en vaak horen we het gelukkig van de conducteur, of zien het bij toeval op de schermen op de perrons.
I am confused. Was there a collision? What happened ?
ja, dat was inderdaad apart. Gelukkig was er geen materieel in de buurt waarmee je in botsing had kunnen komen.
Tijdens mijn bezoek aan Sydney is de machinist waarmee ik meereed overkomen dat we een vol rood passeerden zonder voorafgaand geel. Ging verder goed en is later officieel afgedaan als verkeerd tonend seinbeeld. Vanwege de mechanische beveiliging daar (uitstekende balk aan het sein tikt een luchtklep open onder je trein, waardoor je snelremming ingezet wordt) zijn we veilig tot stilstand gekomen.
Automatic train stop (ATS) be praised!
In Poland main regulations ("Instrukcja o prowadzeniu ruchu pociągów Ir-1" and "Instrukcja sygnalizacji Ie-1") state, that dispatcher is obligated to give a written order "S" (plot 4 - "Inne") in order to allow train driver to continue his journey. But if train driver passes the red signal on purpose (I mean situation, when the signal is red and the driver was warned about this via other signals - "tarcza ostrzegawcza" or other signal), then the special commission is called up and the full investigation process is started by them. Greetings from PL!
Thanks
A common sense in this situation is apply emergency brake, come to complete stop, contact dispatcher and let them know you saw a signal go from green to yellow to red BEFORE you passed the signal. If your train engine is equipped with an onboard camera (more like a black box) mention that it be pulled and reviewed. Always go for safety. don't 2nd guess yourself. If it turns out the signal is bad, hope for fast replacement. Follow all instructions from dispatcher. If dispatcher doesn't agree.. call your boss.
Jeetje, dat is inderdaad wel even schrikken. Gelukkig kon de rit nog voortgezet worden!
Respect!
Absolutely terrifying for you. Thank you for sharing it with us.
The Uk TOC (train operating company) that I worked for, but probably all the companies, you would get a welfare call from management before proceeding. This is to check your state of mind, you are unaware of the reasons that it went red. Broken rail, obstruction on the line etc must be in your mind, you do not want to be dwelling on it, whilst going forward and it affecting your concentration.
1:13:28 vreemd dat dit gebeuren kan eigenlijk 100 meter voor het sein en dan Poef in eens rood, Heel apart wel hoor. Maar Een hele leuke rit Vincent!
Thanks for addressing this critical issue, but I must say that the text overlaid on this TH-cam video is most difficult to read as a result of font size and image resolution. Please consider remediating. Thanks. 2024/09/20. Ontario, Canada.
Are you sure TH-cam selected the full resolution?
You censored yourself, I don't understand if there was nothing graphic that could be shown. I saw the video but they took it down before I could see what happened.
There is no way you could have stopped as that signal changed just as you approached it..... not your fault.
Gelukkig trainen ze machinisten hierop. Het is geen normaal sein beeld van groen en plotseling Rood. Hopelijk kunnen ze uitvinden waarom er plotsing een rood sein werd gegeven. Centrale verkeersleiding (nood situatie) of storing. Denk dat een spoormeester schrikt als dit gebeurt. Een trein die 120 rijd en dan een noodstop maken.😮
ProFail.
Is this real train driving or a stimulation on computer?
Did you momentarily doubt yourself whether the signal was actually green beforehand? Or were you immediately sure that the signal dropped?
Yes, as this should not happen, and rarely does (this is my second time), your brain has to take a second to understand what is going on, if you really see what you have seen, and if you missed anything.
I experienced a very similar thing, except at 100 km/h with a 2200 t freight train. Not the best day of my life
Gekke vraag als leek en mogelijk ook gevoelig, maar stel een collega heeft in tegengestelde richting een aanrijding gehad. Hoe werkt het dan met de seinen? Het was dan ook mijn eerste gedachte, gelukkig was het een technische gebreken.
Wat bedoel je precies?
Why did you take the part after passing the red signal away? As a train driver for 40 years in Switzerland similar situations happend 3 times for me. All whats to do is applaying the emergency brake and by passing the signal the system is doing the same also. If the train finally was standing still I took a call to the superviser who gave me the okay to continue after all was in a protocol written down. No penalty for me of course.
Interesting. Please contact me at cabviewholland@me.com.
@@CabviewHolland this email doesnt work.
@@ppanzer7243 Ah, it should be cabviewholland@gmail.com
Probably a fault in signal system, trespassing can lead to such situations, in Pakistan when a train is about to cross a junction specially a railway station, the station master contacts the driver and tells him that he can pass at MPS or any signal is faulty so reduce your spead, or you are being taken on the loop line.
But your response was 100% justified, i have also seen this, we are at 120kmph and signal ahead suddenly turns red from green, the response from driver was sudden emergency brake and then contact the concerned station for clearance, after clearance we continued out trip, regards from Pakistan
Notice the cable/wire snake along the track, we must stay connected>.
Tussen Schiphol Airport en Dordrecht Kuifje op de Tekenfilm in Jaren 90
Tussen Schiphol Airport en Dordrecht de Musical Kuifje De Zonnetempel Net als Kinderen voor Kinderen
The driver ran the red light because it changed too late but why did he still keep going instead of coming to a safe stop ? Did I miss something ?
See my pinned comment.
This is a failure on part of the signalling logistics. What else could you do? Break hard, and everyone ends up in the front carrage.
Thanks, that was one of the things contributing to my action.
Ik kom er op omdat deze video in Dordrecht eindigt, waar ik woon en vanwaar ik tussen 1979 en 2009 30 jaar op en neer heb gereden naar Rotterdam.
Ik bekijk veel van dit soort videos, en het valt me op dat ze bijv. in Zwitserland en België pas vlak voor het station beginnen te remmen, soms zo laat dat je denkt: gaat de trein hier nou stoppen of niet, en, vooral in België, rijden ze ook helemaal door tot het eind van het perron, ook als daar de uitgang niet is.
In deze video begin je in station Zwijndrecht al af te remmen en rijdt op een sukkeldrafje Dordrecht binnen. Dat verwonderdt me dus al 45 jaar.
Ik leg het ook voor aan de andere volgers: wat is volgens jullie beter?
Bij binnenkomst van Dordrecht vanuit het noorden wordt je via de seinen opgelegd de snelheid te verlagen naar 40, vanwege de 40-wissels voor het station. Vertrek je als stoptrein vanaf Zwijndrecht, dan zit je al direct in dit opgelegde 40-km gebied en kun/mag je helaas niet je snelheid boven de 40 verhogen. Het is dan een lang stuk kachelen inderdaad..
Ik vind het echt vreemd dat je over zo’n situatie niet kunt praten, en dat je risico’s loopt door je mening te geven. Het is best jammer dat mensen zo gevoelig reageren en het probleem gewoon onder de mat schuiven in plaats van er een nuttig gesprek over te hebben. Maar echt, bedankt dat je dit hebt gedeeld en ik denk dat je het heel goed hebt aangepakt!