They buy into the idea that she was fundamentally right in her ideas, but she was sabotaged. Her plans would have worked had it not been for Sunak, the BofE, civil servants, "the blob", [enemy of the week], etc.
It still baffles me that people actually believe there's a difference between one politician and another - they're all puppets to the state and the establishment and at best are just the face to tell the masses what they want to hear. All the while fooling the gullible and complacent masses, they spend their time looking to make what's good for themselves in a situation they won't change much within the system they were credulous to join in the first place.
@@Yawnymcsnore Indeed. And look how long her tenure lasted for it; because she went against the plan - and was replaced by the very guy that lost to her. Who nobody wanted, but the establishment did because he's a "Good little boy" who'll do what he's told like the rest of them.
@@scpatl4nowThat's not true. "Libertarians" who deny freedom to others are not libertarian at all. At least, that's my take on it from the U.S. And it disgusts me to find that the word in the UK also includes social conservatives.
Jesus, the fact that Truss is so popular within the Conservative Party, shows how out of touch they are. Absolute disaster of a politician, who was so far out of her depth it would of been laughable if it hadn't been so damaging.
It proves how stupid and cruel they are. Truss made inflation so much worse, and rather than being punished for it, she was rewarded for it by a six/seven figure wage. Obscene.
Try telling that to the entire right-wing of American politics, they've been playing that game since Reagan was in office, it's just that now the Brits are learning the same tricks.
This. I'd go even further: they don't just tend to be further left than social democrats. Democratic socialism advocates for the workers to seize the means of production (hence "socialism") and then manage them in a democratic fashion (hence "democratic") -- as opposed to the very centralized 'dictatorship of the proletariat' of traditional Marxism and the Leninist tenet of a one-party system with a rigid party discipline, which produced so many dictatorial regimes in the 20th century. TLDR: Democratic socialism is an anti-capitalist, ie left-wing to far-left ideology. It's miles to the left of anything the Labour Party has ever been.
@@Besthinktwice The term is well defined, as Arturo said. It's just that too many people ignore what it means and use in whatever way it feels best that day. That's why words have meanings and those words should be used to imply those meanings and not other things, in general.
@@Besthinktwice Democratic socialism *is* very well defined, and what's more, the definition fits the label perfectly. It's a type of socialism that's democratic. Admittedly it's a very broad label. But it does explicitly exclude all the so-called "socialist" regimes that lacked such things as free open elections, freedom of the press and of expression, or democratic management of the means of production. I know Marx didn't mean a one-party dictatorship, his definition of dictatorship was more similar to that of the ancient world, aka let's have only workers control the economy for a year or two. But he still had an ultra-centralized idea of socialism, and when Bakunin warned that it could lead to a terrible bureaucratic dictatorship, Marx fired him from the First International instead of admitting that Bakunin had a point and maybe it was wise to amend some of his tenets. Not the most democratic approach from Marx to say the least. And yeah early on Lenin didn't necessarily want a one-party system, but he was always a proponent of rigidly vertical party discipline (he once said a party should be organized like an army). And when he ended up having a firm control over a one-party state, in a country with a pre-existing vertical political culture, he never looked back. All those elements, some stemming from their ideologies, some the consequence of historical contingency, misunderstanding or propaganda, ended up combining to create terrible regimes. Regimes that George Orwell -- a democratic socialist in the true sense of the term -- was shooting at in 1984 when he makes O'Brien say: "One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship."
Seriously, I thought she would be demoted to resident dog catcher of the bad part of Sunderland after a cabbage outlasted her short reign. The fact that people still think she has a shot at winning back her own seat in parliament is depressing. If she could crash the economy in three weeks imagine what she could do if given 5 years. If she wins, Britain might just be needing to ask Ukraine for financial assistance.
There are ultra wealthy fanatics who will throw money at anyone who does low taxes and deregulation. Truss won't be short of donors as long as she sticks to the script
@@lewisknight2226 nope, it's Napoleon. Lots of these types of quotes are misattributed to Sun Tzu. Read the Art of War yourself. You won't find it in there. This Napoleon quote came from the time Soult was making an assault at Austerlitz.
Sunak hasn't so much managed the hardliners as he has appeased them, that's the most important reason he hasn't sacked Braverman. He isn't a leader inspiring unity, he's a mailman trying to negotiate with an angry dog.
Very difficult for Sunak. The role back on planning reform was particularly telling. Not that I'm portraying sympathy. Sunak wanted the job, after all.
A symptom of first past the post electoral systems - the only upside is that it hasn't devolved as much as in the US where there really only are two parties. Proportional representation would allow both the Conservatives and Labour to split their hodgepodge parties into proper parties with proper representation in Parliament.
True. It would also allow even loonier parties to get into the H of P. Think AfD or Le Pen, or even Meloni or so called Law and Justice Party (well not so much now after the recent Poish election). The fact I have quoted people not parties in some cases there may also say a lot about how politics is going.
@@blackbaron0 France doesn't use proportional representation and the far-left and far-right parties still made it into the National Assembly. Also purposely rigging the electoral system to gatekeep parties you dislike isn't particularly democratic.
Whilst Cameron may have CLAIMED that he was a supprter of environmental causes, in reality he was nothing of the kind. Labour had planned to build large numbers of off-shore wind turbines - but the MOMENT Cameron came to power this program was stopped. So much for the Tories giving a DAMN about the environment. Clearly, they do NOT, REGARDLESS of which faction individual MPs or PMs may represent. Since coming to power in 2010 the Tories have: A) Given Oil Companies every financial and legislative assistance, at the expense of Renewal Energy enterprises, which have been sidelined B) Pulled the plug on Labour's scheme to properly INSULATE homes and offices throughou the UK C) Enabled Water Companies to pump industrial quantities of raw human excrement into our rivers and coastal waters. D) Given the 'Green Light' for Oil companies to drill for more oil in the North Sea. E) Enabled Coal Mining to re-commence F) Gone against their OWN policy on ULEZ G) Watered down all NET ZERO promises made previously
How in the world is Truss libertarian? Does she want to cut spending? Nope. Does she want the government to get out of people's personal lives? Nope. Simply wanting tax cuts does not make one a libertarian. Pretending that's all libertarianism is only justifies authoritarians wanting to co-opt the brand to seem more palatable. It's part of the reason the US Libertarian Party has abandoned any pretense of having principles and any the UK basically has no actual libertarian movement whatsoever, which is deeply disappointing given the fact that Britain was the birthplace of modern classical liberalism.
It may seemed to have been Labour were the tax and spenders and the Tories the tax less and cutters. Not at the moment. So who is better at the former? Gordon Brown would be delighted.
Isn't it just so telling how terrible the candidates are for the Tory party that Lizz and Itchy are the prime candidates. Is that REALLY the best that can do. Let's not even mention Braverman, how she even thinks she's got what it takes to lead a country I have no idea.
Looking at the clips with Truss her supporters seem in general young, they could well be fairly well off types who have heard of the 'Yuppie' types who did well under Thatcher in the 80s, and now want a bite of the same cherry. What they fail to realise is there isn't the publicly owned assests to be sold off that there were 40 years ago, and Truss won't be able to serve their selfish greed without major reprocussions, as has already been painfully demostrated in the real world with her disastrous budget!.
The instabiity we have now isn't going away any time soon. Starmer is shrud in having a Quiet Confidence and a Return to Normality mandate. The reality may well be something difference, especailly if it all kicks off over the Pond. And of course Governments make mistakes. People will get fed up of high tax and wasteful spending eventually, so a Thatcher type figure may reemerge one day. But it will be something sufficient people will want to happen, and someone with a lot more knowhow and charisma than Liz Truss.
I know i'm not a brit so i don't have a lot of say here, but the 'anti-trans' crap really makes me hope the Tores lose. crud like that is holding us all back. here, there, everywhere :/
The Tories are Republicans Lite. They've got a lot of culture war capital out of demonising trans people in the US (in the absence of anything else to offer), and the Tories have been taking notes. Notice how the meaningless buzzword "woke" has snuck into what ought to be serious discussions, and how the Tories paint it as a great and terrible threat despite being unable to pin down what it is? American imports.
Probably not in the near term. According to polls and the recent by-election the SNP is bracing to lose a considerable number of seats like the Tories.
This is nonsense sunak is in no way a centrist socially. He is also for a smaller state. The only difference between himself and truss is that he could see that tax cuts for the top in society would play badly with the electorate.
What is the chance thar suella will lose her seat? My parents live in Fareham, where she s their MP. I can't believe there are enough racists that live there to keep her in
It’s quite interesting to see the demise of old school conservatism and the chaos and total incompetence of the Tory party in parallel with the Republican party in the US.
There aren't two Tory factions. There are at least three, and Truss is not part of the same faction as Braverman, who is from the populist, interventionist right. She's far from Libertarian.
The many factions within the party are waiting for the upcoming by-elections before they decide to make their move. Should the Tories lose both, expect yet another civil war on Sunak's hands.
All this talk of factionism makes it clearer than ever that we need to scrap FPTP, at least that way the further right wing of the Tories will be removed from parliament and probably replaced with more reasonable voices overall
I’m all for PR, but suggesting that PR will mean the right wing of the conservatives will be removed from parliament is just ridiculous. They’d still be there, just more likely as their own distinct party. Hell, they might even grow in strength. We’ve seen throughout European countries, which have PR, that far right parties are rising significantly. In Austria for instance, their far right party is now polling higher than their traditional conservatives
@@LordDim1Actually it won't, in European countries it grew due to uncontrolled immigration combined with xenophobia, meanwhile in Britain those factors while prevalent aren't as bad as in Europe, plus biggest reasson far right of Torry party even exist is due to old people just being lazy and voting for the same party, why else would UKIP underperform even though majority of voters voted to leave? And even when taking FPTP in account its still small, far right would with PR only get 4-7% and while not destroying, it would singnificantly weaken them, while keeping Torys united than ever due to old people voting for them and not heaving rebelious hardline brexiters.Austria is an outlier, in rest of EU conservatives are 10-30 points higher than far right.
@@LordDim1 Far right-ism is pretty irrelevant in the UK at the moment, those policies are not popular. In the next election they wouldn't win anything, but a soft Tories could probably still pull in a reasonable vote.
Sorry no. It would just mean the Reform Party and perhaps the National Front would have MPs, and plenty of TV coverage. And perhaps even yet anther Farage comeback. Just hope that man in a dolphin suit is still around.
I dont get why anyone in their right mind would want Truss back. The shitshow she did by killing both the economy and the queen was already shocking. Does she want to kill the new king and the recovering ecomony too?
The Tories are done for a generation IMO. The direction of political travel is increasingly set in the opposite direction from the majority of the electorate (which mostly seems to hold quite centerist views) and many of the more moderate voices in the conservative party are now jumping ship, reinforcing the trend and consolidating power in the fringes. It's essentially the exact same problem that the GOP have with MAGA.
Sadly, I don't think so. I reckon that when Labour get in, and aren't able to clean up the Tories' mess within two seconds, people will just vote the Tories straight back in.
@@EightThreeEight I see your point, but it also depends what the Tories do in the meantime. They need to offer something new to turn the tide and I just don't see it happening. More likely they will be increasingly dominated by hard right elements like Truss, Braverman and Rees-Mogg, rendering the party unelectable. Labour went through a similar phase (i.e. got stuck in the fringes) in the 1980s which kept the Tories in for two decades. Also look to the USA, where the GOP in opposition is consumed by infighting. It's easy to blame this solely on Trump, but there are divisive Trump like characters in right wing parties across the western world, which IMO points to a more structural problem in right leaning politics.
@@enemyofthestatewearein7945 nope because Europe is moving farther right the left will win from time to time but only for short periods of time while right wing parties will govern for decades compared to 5 to 6 years at best for left wing parties.
@covfefe1787 The tories right now are practically far right and their becoming more and more right wing all their doing is antagonising their moderate voters most tories aren't mini rishi sunaks/ liz trusses
I’m a civil libertarian but I’m certainly not a social conservative. But I think it’s fair to say that people who claim to be liberals are nothing of the sort these days, more authoritarian left.
How names change with geography: In Australia the Liberal party is a right-wing conservative party and One Nation is a far-right wing, neofascist party.
Liz Truss had her chance, her policies which were based on her long standing ideology had an immediate and extremely damaging effect (especially on the economy and markets, the thing she cared most about) and she resigned. Shouldn't that be the end of the whole thing?
Not just the tories. All political parties with "broad churches" will never satisfy the electorate's wishes or needs. A broad church is simply a coalition where compromise is the inevitable outcome on each and every decision. No such thing as a good compromise!
I had no idea that the UK Tories had a “libertarian” faction, I usually think of American-style libertarianism, not Britain, which has a nanny-state reputation in my eyes, especially from the statist Tories…
Meanwhile Labour are tearing themselves apart deciding between being anti-Semitic and Starmer backing Israel. But you keep up that claim of impartiality.
@@paulgibbon5991 "Keir Starmer faces growing mutiny from within Labour over Israel-Hamas stance" - FT "Starmer emails all councillors over Israel-Gaza as party tensions grow" - Labour List "Labour treads careful line as Israel-Hamas war overshadows conference" - The Guardian Hardly far-right sources, you need to vary your news diet, that's twice you've been wrong now.
@@SaintGerbilUK It must be very easy to declare people wrong if you ignore what they're saying. Must really give you a rush of endorphins. Continue posting.
@@paulgibbon5991 maybe you can clarify what you're utterances means since it seems to me that you wanted people to ignore my claim, but now it seems you just don't care about true and correct information. Like calling me a Tory for a start, you're exactly the problem with the country with your red/blue team thinking.
Perhaps a better question to ask is not "how divided are the Torries", but how divided is the country from the Westminster bubble? ....all mainstream establishment parties being cut from the same cloth.
A true libertarian is usually economically conservative and socially moderate - progressive, in other words, liberal on all fronts. Conservative politicians just like to use the label 'libertarian' as a way to seem like they're promoting freedom
We all know you adore Sunak, Ben Blissett. But give him credit for controlling the libertarians? By controlling you surely mean caving to their every demand?
The American Republicans are having the same problem at the moment. But I think their in-fighting is caused by different problems. They have a lot of people who don't think government can work and then when they end up in power, they do everything can to break government to prove themselves right.
If anything it's the opposite. US Republicans use small government rhetoric, but consistently blow up the federal budget. The Republicans just increase the federal government at a slower pace than their Democratic counterparts, but both do it.
Credit for contolling the libertarians when they all know they cant make a move just now cause there leader liz just crashed the economy. Yeah sunak has had to work so hard to control the libertarian side of the party. This is a quite awful take on the Conservatives. Far to kind.
I try not to, or I'd just get angry at having basically witnessed an armed robbery. And then the Tories pointed to five Albanians in a dinghy as the root of all evil, and the stupid gammon that forms their base bought it.
I disagree wirh this. I would suggest the Liberal Conservative & Nationalist Conservatives are the main factions, with a small (economic) Libertarian faction that moves between both when necessary, lending it's support as a Kingmaker. A key example would be Brexit, this Right Wing economic Libertarian faction helped to drag the party towards the Nationalists.
As long as it is not literally Chairman Mao's Little Red Book, I think that Labor will win. Even if it is literally "we just want things to get back to normal" with some basic common sense ideas like "don't cut taxes on the rich" and "increase funding to the NHS", they will win.
@@mrsplashmanjr1285 yeah I know. I'm just fed up with hearing about it. It's been the upcoming election, just around the corner election for more than a year. 🤯
Would be a great weaze for the Lib Lab people to deliberately work together to only put one candidate into Truss's and Baverman's constituencies. Remember the happy feeling when Michael Portillo got his results 😊
@@PhthaloJohnsonyeah. All you need is a few hundred activists moving to Norfolk (could get some work from home folks to make the switch) and Truss is out like a month old cabbage. Granted that would be a bit insane for people to move just to vote out a single politician, but it is Truss.
Methinks their will be a complete reshuffle in the Tory party in the near future from the current prime minister onwards. Not sure who will end up becoming the top dog though.
THE TORIES ARE AT THE END OF THE LINE , RUNNING OUT OF IDEARS ! We need GENERAL ELECTION. ASP. 13years. Is ENOUGH and let's have a PM. that the people of. this. Country voted for. !
This seems to be a trend throughout the Anglosphere when it comes to the IDU-affiliated parties... Should they follow the right-wing populist path of Trump or a more traditional path of conservatives like Romney, Bush, etc. Frankly I think is an issue for the ages. We the the same issue here in Canada with our PC party splitting into two then reuniting only to splinter and faulter again. Under Pierre Poutine (his nickname around here for his alleged role in helping fix the 2011 election with robocalls) the party has taken a Trump-like populist bet and is succeeding, although for how long is anyone's guess... And down under in Australia? That's again TBD...
I find it absolutely hilarious the libertarian wing of the Conservatives don't like Rishi because he wasn't elected when the candidate they elected definitely had no mandate to do what she did lmfao. Hypocrisy. The libertarian faction is literally just Tory momentum. Very popular with the party members, not popular with the electorate.
Considering how disastrous the Truss’ budget was for overall UK economy and an average citizen, how can we approach Conservative Party membership with any sort of trust? They must have, at least predominantly, benefit from her reforms. Therefore, they show openly that they care more about their own short-term gains than the overall stability of the UK economy. Unless someone can, calmly and politely, explain to me how can one square supporting Truss with caring about majority of UK citizen’s livelihoods? Maybe a video about that TLDR, if you fancy?
There are three factions within the party, not two: national conservatives ("libertarian Trussites"); social conservatives ("one-nation Borisites"); and liberal conservatives ("centrist establishment"), with Sunak trying to pivot to all of them at the same time.
All parties are broad churches. And so they should be, but it would be better if they used the strengths of Teams rather thanjust being bickerfests. Old governments are norally the latter, Governments to be the former.
Who would have guessed Tories would have so many people from the minorities. And also who would have guessed they would be totally incompetent. I mean the narrative is that minorities could do no wrong. But this is true equality - to agree not only that all could be competent but also that all could be incompetent.
Start of the video: "upon his [Sunak's] inevitable election defeat next year" End of the video: "Only time will tell" The thing this video fails to consider is that Sunak is in an amazing position, in regard to the factions in his party. They can huff and puff all they want but removing Sunak before the election is as good as impossible because it would doom the party to defeat at the next election. With Sunak in charge, there is a narrow window to win. Incredibly narrow, yes. But if they make moves to remove him and install another PM without a general election, that window slams shut. So the Tory conference was a free hit for Sunak. It wasn't really about launching an election campaign. It was about bringing the Conservative party together and letting the Broadchurch express itself fully, thereby healing the rifts in the Conservative party that had existed since Truss' removal as PM. Contrast this with Labour's conference where everyone had to sing from the same hymn sheet. A plastic affair vs a true blood-letting. Tory conference was a full-throated display of that elusive thing that pundits and journalists have been wondering about since Rishi pulled up to the steps of Downing Street in his skinny fit Henry Herbert suit on that fateful day in October 2022; Sunakism. More specifically, Sunakism by proxy. The Conference was a display of all of the values and policy aims that Sunak believes define his vision of Conservatism. He had Jeremy Hunt preach about fiscal restraint, which he then echoed in his own speech by drawing a direct comparison between his approach and Margaret Thatchers. He then emphasised it by describing the Tory party as the party of the Grocer's daughter and the Pharmacist's son. He allowed Liz Truss to make an appearance and preach about tax cuts, which he then echoes in his speech by affirming to everyone that he does want tax cuts and that tax cuts will come. That business can trust his Tory party to deliver reforms and cut red tape to make investing in the country more attractive. He had Suella Braverman lead the vanguard on immigration. She was the battering ram and then he affirmed her core points by claiming "nothing was off the table" in regards to taking action to stop the boats. He let Penny Mordaunt cosplay a military/navy general like she's always wanted to. She gave a call to arms which he then emphasised in his speech by claiming that his party was embarking on a journey to "change politics in this country". To fight against the status quo. To make the tough decisions. The optics at the Tory conference weren't neat. They didn't strike a vision of a party united but in many ways, they were. Sunak was the lynchpin, positioning himself squarely in the middle of every major policy and school of thought on a variety of issues...so he could reintroduce himself to the membership and say "Hi. I'm Rishi. I know you guys didn't want me last year but you have me now and this is how I believe we're going to win. I've listened to you all. I hear what you want. I'm repeating it back at you so you know I hear it. I'm going to represent all of these values you hold dear and in doing so, we're going to change politics in this country". And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why the Tory conference was 10000000000x more interesting and more inspiring than the Labour conference. That's why it was a success, despite the optics. And that's why it was exactly the conference the Tory party needed to have: a moment for blood-letting, healing and renewal. TLDR: Allow me to reintroduce myself, my name is Rishi.
The chance of Sunak winning the election is smaller than of Ireland winning the FIFA World Cup. At this point, Sunak should start applying for finance jobs in New York or Toronto as he will be unemployable back at his old London firm. Meanwhile I guess Truss can apply to work as a submarine captain as making things go down quickly seems to be her only marketable skill.
Yeah Sunak is pretty much the only guy who can ride both horses at once. He'll keep things together into a hard fought election and all hell will break out when he goes and it'll be at least 8 years of opposition like in 1997 if they go down to defeat.
@@catmonarchist8920 indeed. He’s straddling like a pro and he doesn’t get enough credit for it. It’s not even noticed. Even TLDR will do a whole video saying he’s the “Most RW PM since Thatcher” and will then call him a moderate in this video…but god forbid they actually do a proper analysis of what Sunak is trying to do from Sunak’s perspective, not from the mainstream consensus perspective. Sorry for the rant, I’m just passionate about Sunak
How Truss still has such a base after the fiasco of her leadership is baffling to me lol
She doesn't, it's just a group that hates Sunak that's all.
It's an overall scheme to ensure not just a Labour landslide but try and get less seats than the Lib-Dems who will become the official opposition
@@ciandoyle3315there is a difference between a diverse opinion and an opinion that is entirely divorced from reality
@@ciandoyle3315my guy she tanked the entire UK economy in less than a month
They buy into the idea that she was fundamentally right in her ideas, but she was sabotaged. Her plans would have worked had it not been for Sunak, the BofE, civil servants, "the blob", [enemy of the week], etc.
It still baffles everyone how Truss moved from LibDems to the very right wing of the Conservatives.
why? these guys do whatever they can to climb the ladder they'll bang any drum if they think it can get them up another rung.
It still baffles me that people actually believe there's a difference between one politician and another - they're all puppets to the state and the establishment and at best are just the face to tell the masses what they want to hear. All the while fooling the gullible and complacent masses, they spend their time looking to make what's good for themselves in a situation they won't change much within the system they were credulous to join in the first place.
She grew a brain
@@Yawnymcsnore Indeed. And look how long her tenure lasted for it; because she went against the plan - and was replaced by the very guy that lost to her. Who nobody wanted, but the establishment did because he's a "Good little boy" who'll do what he's told like the rest of them.
@@Yawnymcsnore With size of a walnut.
... there's a lettuce growing in the crack between the factions 😂
A whole field of lettuces
the fact that "libertarian" now means "socially conservative" just shows you what a joke libertarianism has become
Libertarian means selfish. Always has. Freedom for me but not for thee
@@scpatl4nowThat's not true. "Libertarians" who deny freedom to others are not libertarian at all. At least, that's my take on it from the U.S. And it disgusts me to find that the word in the UK also includes social conservatives.
@@eksortso The problem here is that freedom for Libertarians always seems to infringe on the freedom of others.
@@scpatl4nowthe freedom for anyone infringe on the freedom of others.
They are conservative Stooges
I like how you pronounced "swivel-eyed loon" as "Libertarian". Very diplomatic.
Jesus, the fact that Truss is so popular within the Conservative Party, shows how out of touch they are. Absolute disaster of a politician, who was so far out of her depth it would of been laughable if it hadn't been so damaging.
It proves how stupid and cruel they are. Truss made inflation so much worse, and rather than being punished for it, she was rewarded for it by a six/seven figure wage. Obscene.
You can't claim to be a small state conservative but then use government power to literally stopping the things you don't like.
Try telling that to the entire right-wing of American politics, they've been playing that game since Reagan was in office, it's just that now the Brits are learning the same tricks.
Tiny correction: democratic socialists tend to be further left than social democrats.
This. I'd go even further: they don't just tend to be further left than social democrats. Democratic socialism advocates for the workers to seize the means of production (hence "socialism") and then manage them in a democratic fashion (hence "democratic") -- as opposed to the very centralized 'dictatorship of the proletariat' of traditional Marxism and the Leninist tenet of a one-party system with a rigid party discipline, which produced so many dictatorial regimes in the 20th century. TLDR: Democratic socialism is an anti-capitalist, ie left-wing to far-left ideology. It's miles to the left of anything the Labour Party has ever been.
@@Besthinktwice The term is well defined, as Arturo said. It's just that too many people ignore what it means and use in whatever way it feels best that day. That's why words have meanings and those words should be used to imply those meanings and not other things, in general.
Pretty sure that's just a mistake. They probably mean Social Democrat.
@@Besthinktwice
Democratic socialism *is* very well defined, and what's more, the definition fits the label perfectly. It's a type of socialism that's democratic. Admittedly it's a very broad label. But it does explicitly exclude all the so-called "socialist" regimes that lacked such things as free open elections, freedom of the press and of expression, or democratic management of the means of production.
I know Marx didn't mean a one-party dictatorship, his definition of dictatorship was more similar to that of the ancient world, aka let's have only workers control the economy for a year or two. But he still had an ultra-centralized idea of socialism, and when Bakunin warned that it could lead to a terrible bureaucratic dictatorship, Marx fired him from the First International instead of admitting that Bakunin had a point and maybe it was wise to amend some of his tenets. Not the most democratic approach from Marx to say the least.
And yeah early on Lenin didn't necessarily want a one-party system, but he was always a proponent of rigidly vertical party discipline (he once said a party should be organized like an army). And when he ended up having a firm control over a one-party state, in a country with a pre-existing vertical political culture, he never looked back.
All those elements, some stemming from their ideologies, some the consequence of historical contingency, misunderstanding or propaganda, ended up combining to create terrible regimes. Regimes that George Orwell -- a democratic socialist in the true sense of the term -- was shooting at in 1984 when he makes O'Brien say: "One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship."
A monty python sketch comes to mind...
How the bloody hell is truss allowed to govern anything!?!
Seriously, I thought she would be demoted to resident dog catcher of the bad part of Sunderland after a cabbage outlasted her short reign. The fact that people still think she has a shot at winning back her own seat in parliament is depressing. If she could crash the economy in three weeks imagine what she could do if given 5 years. If she wins, Britain might just be needing to ask Ukraine for financial assistance.
There are ultra wealthy fanatics who will throw money at anyone who does low taxes and deregulation. Truss won't be short of donors as long as she sticks to the script
Because the idiot Press point a camera in her direction.
"Never interrupt your enemy when they are making a mistake"
-Napoléon Bonaparte
Sun Tzu*******
@@lewisknight2226 nope, it's Napoleon. Lots of these types of quotes are misattributed to Sun Tzu. Read the Art of War yourself. You won't find it in there. This Napoleon quote came from the time Soult was making an assault at Austerlitz.
Sunak hasn't so much managed the hardliners as he has appeased them, that's the most important reason he hasn't sacked Braverman. He isn't a leader inspiring unity, he's a mailman trying to negotiate with an angry dog.
Very difficult for Sunak. The role back on planning reform was particularly telling. Not that I'm portraying sympathy. Sunak wanted the job, after all.
A symptom of first past the post electoral systems - the only upside is that it hasn't devolved as much as in the US where there really only are two parties.
Proportional representation would allow both the Conservatives and Labour to split their hodgepodge parties into proper parties with proper representation in Parliament.
True. It would also allow even loonier parties to get into the H of P. Think AfD or Le Pen, or even Meloni or so called Law and Justice Party (well not so much now after the recent Poish election). The fact I have quoted people not parties in some cases there may also say a lot about how politics is going.
@@blackbaron0 France doesn't use proportional representation and the far-left and far-right parties still made it into the National Assembly. Also purposely rigging the electoral system to gatekeep parties you dislike isn't particularly democratic.
Truss supporters being angry that Sunak never faced an election is ironic
My dyslexic ass read the title as “why fascism could hurt the Tories” 😂
Also valid!
We need PR
this is the party that is heading out of power.
Yes and lets bring in labour
Labour can help expedite the process for more people from Palestine and other "war torn" nations.
@@srikarreddy5714 maybe if we stopped selling them the bombs to kill each other with?
@@gregprocter765but muh military industrial complex
I can't wait for Labour to sent the police to arrest me for saying mean words online.
Both parties are a joke.
@@srikarreddy5714 Unplug from the Daily Hatemail.
The Tories should've elected the lettuce as their leader -- despite being a vegetable it would've done a better job than Truss
And lasted longer in the post.
2:08 David Cameron was leader until 2016, not 2015.
Whilst Cameron may have CLAIMED that he was a supprter of environmental causes, in reality he was nothing of the kind. Labour had planned to build large numbers of off-shore wind turbines - but the MOMENT Cameron came to power this program was stopped. So much for the Tories giving a DAMN about the environment. Clearly, they do NOT, REGARDLESS of which faction individual MPs or PMs may represent.
Since coming to power in 2010 the Tories have:
A) Given Oil Companies every financial and legislative assistance, at the expense of Renewal Energy enterprises, which have been sidelined
B) Pulled the plug on Labour's scheme to properly INSULATE homes and offices throughou the UK
C) Enabled Water Companies to pump industrial quantities of raw human excrement into our rivers and coastal waters.
D) Given the 'Green Light' for Oil companies to drill for more oil in the North Sea.
E) Enabled Coal Mining to re-commence
F) Gone against their OWN policy on ULEZ
G) Watered down all NET ZERO promises made previously
How in the world is Truss libertarian?
Does she want to cut spending? Nope.
Does she want the government to get out of people's personal lives? Nope.
Simply wanting tax cuts does not make one a libertarian. Pretending that's all libertarianism is only justifies authoritarians wanting to co-opt the brand to seem more palatable. It's part of the reason the US Libertarian Party has abandoned any pretense of having principles and any the UK basically has no actual libertarian movement whatsoever, which is deeply disappointing given the fact that Britain was the birthplace of modern classical liberalism.
It may seemed to have been Labour were the tax and spenders and the Tories the tax less and cutters. Not at the moment. So who is better at the former? Gordon Brown would be delighted.
Isn't it just so telling how terrible the candidates are for the Tory party that Lizz and Itchy are the prime candidates. Is that REALLY the best that can do. Let's not even mention Braverman, how she even thinks she's got what it takes to lead a country I have no idea.
Tat's the state of the world today unfortunately. Look at the USA.
Looking at the clips with Truss her supporters seem in general young, they could well be fairly well off types who have heard of the 'Yuppie' types who did well under Thatcher in the 80s, and now want a bite of the same cherry.
What they fail to realise is there isn't the publicly owned assests to be sold off that there were 40 years ago, and Truss won't be able to serve their selfish greed without major reprocussions, as has already been painfully demostrated in the real world with her disastrous budget!.
The instabiity we have now isn't going away any time soon. Starmer is shrud in having a Quiet Confidence and a Return to Normality mandate. The reality may well be something difference, especailly if it all kicks off over the Pond. And of course Governments make mistakes. People will get fed up of high tax and wasteful spending eventually, so a Thatcher type figure may reemerge one day. But it will be something sufficient people will want to happen, and someone with a lot more knowhow and charisma than Liz Truss.
I know i'm not a brit so i don't have a lot of say here, but the 'anti-trans' crap really makes me hope the Tores lose. crud like that is holding us all back. here, there, everywhere :/
The Tories are Republicans Lite. They've got a lot of culture war capital out of demonising trans people in the US (in the absence of anything else to offer), and the Tories have been taking notes. Notice how the meaningless buzzword "woke" has snuck into what ought to be serious discussions, and how the Tories paint it as a great and terrible threat despite being unable to pin down what it is? American imports.
Libertarians are not socially conservative. That's just being a conservative.
Whatever the faction, Tories are always cruel, greedy and selfish.
The sooner the tories vanish away from politics the better, they’re called the nasty party for a reason
Like all politicians
More importantly it could benefit the country.
They really do need to split up.
Probably not in the near term. According to polls and the recent by-election the SNP is bracing to lose a considerable number of seats like the Tories.
Braverman is literally the worst human being this nation spat out in the past decade or so.
Clearly not worse than Corbyn
This is nonsense sunak is in no way a centrist socially. He is also for a smaller state. The only difference between himself and truss is that he could see that tax cuts for the top in society would play badly with the electorate.
0:03 "The Conservative Party is still going through a tough period" - AWWWW, DIDDUMS!
What is the chance thar suella will lose her seat? My parents live in Fareham, where she s their MP. I can't believe there are enough racists that live there to keep her in
It’s quite interesting to see the demise of old school conservatism and the chaos and total incompetence of the Tory party in parallel with the Republican party in the US.
There aren't two Tory factions. There are at least three, and Truss is not part of the same faction as Braverman, who is from the populist, interventionist right. She's far from Libertarian.
Think this misses that Sunak isn't a one nation tory either. He's still very right wing in policies other than taxes
JUST CALL A GENERAL ELECTION! SAP. JUST 13 YEARS IS ENOUGH!
4:50 well well well
Sunak isn't centrist? Look at his front bench
The many factions within the party are waiting for the upcoming by-elections before they decide to make their move.
Should the Tories lose both, expect yet another civil war on Sunak's hands.
Sunak would be out. And next....? Kemi Badenoch could be one name. Already a raised profile without putting said head above the trenches.
All this talk of factionism makes it clearer than ever that we need to scrap FPTP, at least that way the further right wing of the Tories will be removed from parliament and probably replaced with more reasonable voices overall
I’m all for PR, but suggesting that PR will mean the right wing of the conservatives will be removed from parliament is just ridiculous. They’d still be there, just more likely as their own distinct party. Hell, they might even grow in strength. We’ve seen throughout European countries, which have PR, that far right parties are rising significantly. In Austria for instance, their far right party is now polling higher than their traditional conservatives
@@LordDim1Actually it won't, in European countries it grew due to uncontrolled immigration combined with xenophobia, meanwhile in Britain those factors while prevalent aren't as bad as in Europe, plus biggest reasson far right of Torry party even exist is due to old people just being lazy and voting for the same party, why else would UKIP underperform even though majority of voters voted to leave? And even when taking FPTP in account its still small, far right would with PR only get 4-7% and while not destroying, it would singnificantly weaken them, while keeping Torys united than ever due to old people voting for them and not heaving rebelious hardline brexiters.Austria is an outlier, in rest of EU conservatives are 10-30 points higher than far right.
@@LordDim1 Far right-ism is pretty irrelevant in the UK at the moment, those policies are not popular. In the next election they wouldn't win anything, but a soft Tories could probably still pull in a reasonable vote.
@LordDim1 they will be in parliament, but in a lonely corner, rather than round the cabinet table like now 😳
Sorry no. It would just mean the Reform Party and perhaps the National Front would have MPs, and plenty of TV coverage. And perhaps even yet anther Farage comeback. Just hope that man in a dolphin suit is still around.
I dont get why anyone in their right mind would want Truss back. The shitshow she did by killing both the economy and the queen was already shocking. Does she want to kill the new king and the recovering ecomony too?
Can't she just apply to be a submarine captain because her only marketable skill is making things go down fast.
The Tories are done for a generation IMO. The direction of political travel is increasingly set in the opposite direction from the majority of the electorate (which mostly seems to hold quite centerist views) and many of the more moderate voices in the conservative party are now jumping ship, reinforcing the trend and consolidating power in the fringes. It's essentially the exact same problem that the GOP have with MAGA.
Sadly, I don't think so.
I reckon that when Labour get in, and aren't able to clean up the Tories' mess within two seconds, people will just vote the Tories straight back in.
@@EightThreeEight I see your point, but it also depends what the Tories do in the meantime. They need to offer something new to turn the tide and I just don't see it happening. More likely they will be increasingly dominated by hard right elements like Truss, Braverman and Rees-Mogg, rendering the party unelectable. Labour went through a similar phase (i.e. got stuck in the fringes) in the 1980s which kept the Tories in for two decades. Also look to the USA, where the GOP in opposition is consumed by infighting. It's easy to blame this solely on Trump, but there are divisive Trump like characters in right wing parties across the western world, which IMO points to a more structural problem in right leaning politics.
@@enemyofthestatewearein7945yeah. I think Britain is about to see a decade or two of center left politics with the Tories on the fringe.
@@enemyofthestatewearein7945 nope because Europe is moving farther right the left will win from time to time but only for short periods of time while right wing parties will govern for decades compared to 5 to 6 years at best for left wing parties.
@covfefe1787 The tories right now are practically far right and their becoming more and more right wing all their doing is antagonising their moderate voters most tories aren't mini rishi sunaks/ liz trusses
Oh god no more Truss, my wallet can't handle it
2:24
I’m a civil libertarian but I’m certainly not a social conservative. But I think it’s fair to say that people who claim to be liberals are nothing of the sort these days, more authoritarian left.
How names change with geography: In Australia the Liberal party is a right-wing conservative party and One Nation is a far-right wing, neofascist party.
Liz Truss had her chance, her policies which were based on her long standing ideology had an immediate and extremely damaging effect (especially on the economy and markets, the thing she cared most about) and she resigned. Shouldn't that be the end of the whole thing?
Not just the tories. All political parties with "broad churches" will never satisfy the electorate's wishes or needs. A broad church is simply a coalition where compromise is the inevitable outcome on each and every decision. No such thing as a good compromise!
See when put text into coloured boxes, I find the flashing grid background a wee bit triggering. Anyone else raised this with you?
BRING BACK THE LETTUCE !!
It's more of "how much has factionalism hurt the Tories?" Now lol
Factionism is an unfortunate side effect of our first past the post electoral system.
Tiny parties in proportional systems can still have factionalism
Ireland 🇮🇪 🇮🇪 🇮🇪 🇮🇪 is not part of the UK. Ireland 🇮🇪 🇮🇪 🇮🇪 is part of the European Union.
I had no idea that the UK Tories had a “libertarian” faction, I usually think of American-style libertarianism, not Britain, which has a nanny-state reputation in my eyes, especially from the statist Tories…
Meanwhile Labour are tearing themselves apart deciding between being anti-Semitic and Starmer backing Israel.
But you keep up that claim of impartiality.
Pay no attention to that Rees-Mogg in the corner.
@@paulgibbon5991 "Keir Starmer faces growing mutiny from within Labour over Israel-Hamas stance" - FT
"Starmer emails all councillors over Israel-Gaza as party tensions grow" - Labour List
"Labour treads careful line as Israel-Hamas war overshadows conference" - The Guardian
Hardly far-right sources, you need to vary your news diet, that's twice you've been wrong now.
@@SaintGerbilUK It must be very easy to declare people wrong if you ignore what they're saying. Must really give you a rush of endorphins. Continue posting.
@@paulgibbon5991 maybe you can clarify what you're utterances means since it seems to me that you wanted people to ignore my claim, but now it seems you just don't care about true and correct information.
Like calling me a Tory for a start, you're exactly the problem with the country with your red/blue team thinking.
Perhaps a better question to ask is not "how divided are the Torries", but how divided is the country from the Westminster bubble? ....all mainstream establishment parties being cut from the same cloth.
Yes they are very divided
How is Truss' wing libertatian?
A true libertarian is usually economically conservative and socially moderate - progressive, in other words, liberal on all fronts. Conservative politicians just like to use the label 'libertarian' as a way to seem like they're promoting freedom
Good.
We all know you adore Sunak, Ben Blissett. But give him credit for controlling the libertarians? By controlling you surely mean caving to their every demand?
I hope after the next election, we don't see another Tory government in my lifetime.
Correction: Cameron was leader of the Conservatives from 2005-2016, not 2015 as stated.
The American Republicans are having the same problem at the moment. But I think their in-fighting is caused by different problems. They have a lot of people who don't think government can work and then when they end up in power, they do everything can to break government to prove themselves right.
P.J. O'Rourke would be proud of you.
If anything it's the opposite. US Republicans use small government rhetoric, but consistently blow up the federal budget. The Republicans just increase the federal government at a slower pace than their Democratic counterparts, but both do it.
ABOLISH THE RIGHT WING!
Leftists love democracy until the people don’t vote for them
Credit for contolling the libertarians when they all know they cant make a move just now cause there leader liz just crashed the economy. Yeah sunak has had to work so hard to control the libertarian side of the party. This is a quite awful take on the Conservatives. Far to kind.
Forget the tories- think about the damage this has caused the country!
I try not to, or I'd just get angry at having basically witnessed an armed robbery. And then the Tories pointed to five Albanians in a dinghy as the root of all evil, and the stupid gammon that forms their base bought it.
everybody just wait for the elections. get on with it
Not as divided as Starmer and Rayner who hate each other’s guts. I do agree with Starmer on this one though.
Could? Does.
2:20 also worth noting that this was a Lib Dem priority brought into the effect by Liberal Democrat! Lynne Featherstone!!
I disagree wirh this. I would suggest the Liberal Conservative & Nationalist Conservatives are the main factions, with a small (economic) Libertarian faction that moves between both when necessary, lending it's support as a Kingmaker. A key example would be Brexit, this Right Wing economic Libertarian faction helped to drag the party towards the Nationalists.
Back benchers circling like carrion birds 😅
If I express my opinion of the Tories this post would be reported
Starmer cannot do a long run reform and truss fiasco
Has the labour party manifesto been released?
Bro chill it's not even a year to the next election 😂 even 4 mouths before the election would be too early 😂😂
As long as it is not literally Chairman Mao's Little Red Book, I think that Labor will win. Even if it is literally "we just want things to get back to normal" with some basic common sense ideas like "don't cut taxes on the rich" and "increase funding to the NHS", they will win.
@@mrsplashmanjr1285 yeah I know. I'm just fed up with hearing about it.
It's been the upcoming election, just around the corner election for more than a year. 🤯
Let the libertarian faction run wild!
How can Truss still be popular with Tories after the amount of damage she caused in record time?
I think it’s the f’wittery that will hurt them more. Looking at you Liv.
Tories will be going into meltdown over the weekend. Tories are toast. Sunak should resign.
Would be a great weaze for the Lib Lab people to deliberately work together to only put one candidate into Truss's and Baverman's constituencies. Remember the happy feeling when Michael Portillo got his results 😊
I don't think Truss is safe. What is did was so catastrophic, even a dead man would wake up from the crash.
@@PhthaloJohnsonyeah. All you need is a few hundred activists moving to Norfolk (could get some work from home folks to make the switch) and Truss is out like a month old cabbage. Granted that would be a bit insane for people to move just to vote out a single politician, but it is Truss.
Methinks their will be a complete reshuffle in the Tory party in the near future from the current prime minister onwards. Not sure who will end up becoming the top dog though.
Suella Braverman. Don't you just mean Hitler who happens to have a V instead of a D?
THE TORIES ARE AT THE END OF THE LINE , RUNNING OUT OF IDEARS ! We need GENERAL ELECTION. ASP. 13years. Is ENOUGH and let's have a PM. that the people of. this. Country voted for. !
It's laughable that Liz stood in N.10 from September/22 to October/22. Lettuce Liz. Great stuff.
This seems to be a trend throughout the Anglosphere when it comes to the IDU-affiliated parties... Should they follow the right-wing populist path of Trump or a more traditional path of conservatives like Romney, Bush, etc. Frankly I think is an issue for the ages. We the the same issue here in Canada with our PC party splitting into two then reuniting only to splinter and faulter again. Under Pierre Poutine (his nickname around here for his alleged role in helping fix the 2011 election with robocalls) the party has taken a Trump-like populist bet and is succeeding, although for how long is anyone's guess... And down under in Australia? That's again TBD...
I find it absolutely hilarious the libertarian wing of the Conservatives don't like Rishi because he wasn't elected when the candidate they elected definitely had no mandate to do what she did lmfao. Hypocrisy.
The libertarian faction is literally just Tory momentum. Very popular with the party members, not popular with the electorate.
At the next Election if there was a Conservative Party in our Country i Would Vote Conservative but We No longer have a Conservative Party
you think this is the thing that hurts them? have you seen the UK lately?
Whx would anyone listen to Truss
Considering how disastrous the Truss’ budget was for overall UK economy and an average citizen, how can we approach Conservative Party membership with any sort of trust? They must have, at least predominantly, benefit from her reforms. Therefore, they show openly that they care more about their own short-term gains than the overall stability of the UK economy. Unless someone can, calmly and politely, explain to me how can one square supporting Truss with caring about majority of UK citizen’s livelihoods?
Maybe a video about that TLDR, if you fancy?
There are three factions within the party, not two:
national conservatives ("libertarian Trussites");
social conservatives ("one-nation Borisites"); and
liberal conservatives ("centrist establishment"),
with Sunak trying to pivot to all of them at the same time.
Boris is socially conservative now?
All parties are broad churches. And so they should be, but it would be better if they used the strengths of Teams rather thanjust being bickerfests. Old governments are norally the latter, Governments to be the former.
@@catmonarchist8920To people who don't know what they're talking about, Boris Johnson is anything they want him to be.
GRAND CANYON GAP LOL
This will help labor for win
The Government is Conservative with a small c - called Rishi Sunak.
Who would have guessed Tories would have so many people from the minorities. And also who would have guessed they would be totally incompetent. I mean the narrative is that minorities could do no wrong. But this is true equality - to agree not only that all could be competent but also that all could be incompetent.
I think we r a long way past ‘could’ by now guys.
My untrained mind reckons that video was 25% ADVERTISING!
Do Labour next cowards
Start of the video: "upon his [Sunak's] inevitable election defeat next year"
End of the video: "Only time will tell"
The thing this video fails to consider is that Sunak is in an amazing position, in regard to the factions in his party. They can huff and puff all they want but removing Sunak before the election is as good as impossible because it would doom the party to defeat at the next election.
With Sunak in charge, there is a narrow window to win. Incredibly narrow, yes. But if they make moves to remove him and install another PM without a general election, that window slams shut.
So the Tory conference was a free hit for Sunak. It wasn't really about launching an election campaign. It was about bringing the Conservative party together and letting the Broadchurch express itself fully, thereby healing the rifts in the Conservative party that had existed since Truss' removal as PM. Contrast this with Labour's conference where everyone had to sing from the same hymn sheet. A plastic affair vs a true blood-letting.
Tory conference was a full-throated display of that elusive thing that pundits and journalists have been wondering about since Rishi pulled up to the steps of Downing Street in his skinny fit Henry Herbert suit on that fateful day in October 2022; Sunakism.
More specifically, Sunakism by proxy. The Conference was a display of all of the values and policy aims that Sunak believes define his vision of Conservatism. He had Jeremy Hunt preach about fiscal restraint, which he then echoed in his own speech by drawing a direct comparison between his approach and Margaret Thatchers. He then emphasised it by describing the Tory party as the party of the Grocer's daughter and the Pharmacist's son.
He allowed Liz Truss to make an appearance and preach about tax cuts, which he then echoes in his speech by affirming to everyone that he does want tax cuts and that tax cuts will come. That business can trust his Tory party to deliver reforms and cut red tape to make investing in the country more attractive.
He had Suella Braverman lead the vanguard on immigration. She was the battering ram and then he affirmed her core points by claiming "nothing was off the table" in regards to taking action to stop the boats.
He let Penny Mordaunt cosplay a military/navy general like she's always wanted to. She gave a call to arms which he then emphasised in his speech by claiming that his party was embarking on a journey to "change politics in this country". To fight against the status quo. To make the tough decisions.
The optics at the Tory conference weren't neat. They didn't strike a vision of a party united but in many ways, they were. Sunak was the lynchpin, positioning himself squarely in the middle of every major policy and school of thought on a variety of issues...so he could reintroduce himself to the membership and say "Hi. I'm Rishi. I know you guys didn't want me last year but you have me now and this is how I believe we're going to win. I've listened to you all. I hear what you want. I'm repeating it back at you so you know I hear it. I'm going to represent all of these values you hold dear and in doing so, we're going to change politics in this country".
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why the Tory conference was 10000000000x more interesting and more inspiring than the Labour conference. That's why it was a success, despite the optics. And that's why it was exactly the conference the Tory party needed to have: a moment for blood-letting, healing and renewal.
TLDR: Allow me to reintroduce myself, my name is Rishi.
The chance of Sunak winning the election is smaller than of Ireland winning the FIFA World Cup. At this point, Sunak should start applying for finance jobs in New York or Toronto as he will be unemployable back at his old London firm. Meanwhile I guess Truss can apply to work as a submarine captain as making things go down quickly seems to be her only marketable skill.
@@jonathanbowers8964 well Jonathan, only time will tell
Yeah Sunak is pretty much the only guy who can ride both horses at once. He'll keep things together into a hard fought election and all hell will break out when he goes and it'll be at least 8 years of opposition like in 1997 if they go down to defeat.
@@catmonarchist8920 indeed. He’s straddling like a pro and he doesn’t get enough credit for it. It’s not even noticed. Even TLDR will do a whole video saying he’s the “Most RW PM since Thatcher” and will then call him a moderate in this video…but god forbid they actually do a proper analysis of what Sunak is trying to do from Sunak’s perspective, not from the mainstream consensus perspective.
Sorry for the rant, I’m just passionate about Sunak
Good, no one likes the Tories anyways.
Liz Truss for PM, we need a new direction and a fresh pair of hands!
You forgot \s there buddy.
If you just want to flush money down the toilet, go for it! Just don't drag everyone else into it, ok?